He does have these memories, because they were shared with him through his mother (who has them from the Water of Life ritual she made with the Fremen Reverend Mother), and possibly through Chani’s tear.
He 100% knows what he is saying… Its not bullshit, he isnt making shit up, he KNOWS.
Its the only reason the Fremen present, those individuals he directly addresses during the speech accepted him rather than rejected him, he essentially proved to them without an ounce of doubt that he knew the intricacies of their past... He gave them proof of the impossible.
Fremen are the kind of people who kill those who blatantly lie, not submit to them out of fear. They wouldnt have reacted the way they did if they believed him to be lying.
Yeah, I don't understand OP at all or a lot of people moaning about the fanatical element. He's legitimately on some otherworldy super-power shit. It's not just some weird religious fanaticism. Paul is genuinely on one.
Well it is fanaticism because none of those things actually mean he's their savior, it simply means that he's been bred and raised to grasp these powers. That's actually the main point, yeah Paul can see possibilities due to the extent of his memories but he cannot actually see the future and he is not supernatural within the rules of the universe.
It's like if Jesus was turning water to win with a hidden sodastream up his sleeves or came back because he took a drug that made him seem dead. On its face it is what it is but in many ways it betrays the most important aspect, its relation with God.
Paul is not their Mahdi, he is an inheritor of memories who has had a spiritual red carpet rolled out to the Fremen thousands of years ago.
I think your Jesus analogy is way off the mark given the variety of trials Paul moved through to get to where he got at the end of the film. He is exceptional, having been bred to be or not doesn't change that.
He might not be literally supernatural, but he’s not like, a common snake oil salesman. Paul’s prescience, while not omniscience, is effectively indistinguishable from supernatural (if limited) ability in universe.
> but he cannot actually see the future and he is not supernatural within the rules of the universe.
This is completely wrong. He literally can see the future and in fact his prescience is so powerful that he >!doesn't even need his eyes anymore in Dune Messiah!<. The terrible danger and stagnation prescience causes in the human race is one of the core plot points of the entire book series.
I think the whole Dune lore surrounding what Paul can or cannot do is a moving goalpost throughout the whole series. If he can completely see the future then the tarots shouldn't matter at all, and he should be able to see that he's having twins.
In fact the whole point of him having twins and not knowing is to show that he cannot literally see the future.
No, the whole point is that >!up until then he literally didn't even need his eyes anymore because he could see the future so clearly.!< It wasn't until after something happened he didn't see that >!he actually went blind!<.
Your argument relies on ignoring something like 2/3rds of Dune Messiah and the entirety of the core plot of the *entire rest of the series*.
Question: So Paul after the Water of Life Ritual can read anything he wants on everyone he comes across? Or is it the memory of the Reverend Mothers on Arrakis, or everywhere? Like when he speaks to Liet Kynes in the first film he knows things about her and he is not wrong. Are these just characteristics of the KH? and then the Water of Life gives him ultimate clarity into the past and future? (I have just started the books so I only know the movies).
He probably cant see everyone, but instead chose a handful of people who he DID know the past of as examples, hoping the Fremen would assume he'd know these details about every single one of them, when no, that would not likely be the case.
When Paul uses prescience, especially after the Water of Life (which simply gave him access to the memories of all his Male AND Female ancestors, meaning billions and billions of people), he is using his Mentat training (essentially a human computer) to process the data he has from his Genetic Memory into usable knowledge and information. And since he has so much of it, he can make VERY accurate guesses about how people will act in the now and in the future. The Spice makes this even easier, it "boosts" the brain to do this better, and the Spice is in every meal, coffee, breath of air and more on Arrakis, so he is constantly permeated with it.
So yes, these are things he can do because he is the KH, but the KH isnt some propheciesed human of legends, or a magical thing, its just the cumulation of Human Eugenics done for 10 000 years by the Bene Gesserit to form a human able to do what they have figured to do (see within their DNA and access their Genetic Memory, but only for the X chromosome, so only Females) but better, due to being able to look into both the X and the Y chromosome, essentially gaining access to ALL human knowledge up to their 2 direct ancestors (Paul's parents).
But the Sharing, which in the books require physical contact between 2 Reverend mother (or the KH) but in the movies seem Telepathic, allows transfer of this knowledge into a living Reverend Mother (or KH), rather than having to wait for the child to take the water of life, hopefully live, and THEN have your knowledge.
Ouf, this is long, but hopefully it answers some of your questions well enough.
Thank you, thank you! I understand now--I think the extent of his powers was where it was a bit foggy--this clears it up quite a bit, like a boost of spice! The layers to this story are incredible and I cannot get enough of it!
I have to disagree with a little bit of what you said. The idea that it is just mental computation through memory + variable guessing from Mentat training is simply wrong. Paul also literally has prescience ability. Which means he can see into the future of complete random occurrences that he has no information that would lead to that conclusion. The idea that future sight is just probability calculation is incorrect because there are far too much randomness in nature. No amount of mentat calculation will let you know which specific sperm will fertilize an egg, so being able to see how a descendent will look like is impossible.
What mental calculations would he be able to do that would allow him to see a mental image of Chani while he was still on Caladan? Its obvious from book one he can see the future w/o it just being advanced probability solving.
> Frank didnt
You can say that all you want, it doesn't make it true. Paul's literal supernatural prescience is a major plot point, and the dangers of prescience in general are part of the core plot of the entire book series.
the water of life didnt just open him to other memory. it unlocked the kwisatz haderach. in simple terms, a kwisatz haderach is just a person with the genes and training to be a reverend mother, mentat, and guild navigator all at once without going insane. And once you have clarity on past (reverend mother), present (mentat), and future (guild navigator); its like a focusing of them all.
remember, everything we are told is a lie. Alia and Leto are both Kwisatz Haderach, as was the Bene Tleillax KH. Another point, there is nothing stopping a woman from accessing male memories (alia), its just a superstition of the bene gesserit.
But Paul did not have the same level of other memory as Alia or Leto, who can see ALL of their ancestors; while reverend mothers (and likely Paul?) can only see their bene gesserit 'ancestors'.
>Another point, there is nothing stopping a woman from accessing male memories (alia), its just a superstition of the bene gesserit.
Nope. Women die if they try to access the male side. Alia is an abomination and has the same genetics pool as Paul.
who told you that? was it a bene gesserit reverend mother?
\> Emperor Paul Muad'dib: 'We will not discuss the things your sisterhood forbids. I will hear no talk of sins, abominations, or the beliefs left over from past jihads
\> Leto II: ' Your Sisterhood is nothing but a bunch of damn fool old women who haven't thought beyond their precious breeding program! '
The explanaition is spot on, but I would say he knew the history of almost everyone in the room from Jessica... as Jessica had all the Freman "history" data from the the older dying freman reverend mother that she replaced.
He did have some contact with his mother, so it can easily be assumed that in some offrescreen or cut scene she would transfer all of her knowledge to him.
Now my question remains... Would he be able to access all the Y-chromosome data from her mother's memories, or he is locked only to his own blood stream? I forgot how was this in the books, as I've read them a long long time ago.
Yes, thats my point, he knows it from Jessica, from the Sharing with her (which is “telepathic” in the movies, no need for touch).
And yes, he can see ALL his ancestors, male and female, thats the point of the KH.
My question is more like.. Can he see all the ancestral male knowledge transfered from the freman mother to Jessica? Does the male knowledge cary through women even if unaccessible?
Oh, I get it now.
Im not sure actually... But at worst, he will remember these men though the memories of the women they coexisted with, so he wont have as much data about them, but will still know much.
But yeah, I dont think this is mentioned in the books, at least I never noticed anything about this in my readings (im on my 7th reading now).
he chooses the ones that he knows will have the right reaction and also are powerful enough to sway others. he basically uses theory of mind and prescience to get the desired outcome from the gathering.
Better just to handwave it with prescience. No spoilers, but his decendant comes across as basically omnipotent, so putting it in terms of genetic memory is just splitting hairs.
yeah this was one of the major failures of the movies. but to be honest you're reading the book so may as well experience how much better they are than the movies first hand.
This is wrong, both for the movie and for the book. Paul does not have ancestral memories, meaning active recollection of others lives, in the book nor in the movie. He has the ”other memory”, the race consciousness. This is proven by the lack of any mention of other’s memories in the books, and the shock he exhibits when Leto II shares his memories with Paul. They are not the same thing! What Paul has is a more subconscious thing.
Btw, Jessica only has the shared memories from the reverend mother, not some ancestral memories from her female lineage. This is again proved by Leto II in Children of Dune, who remarks about it.
In the movie, Paul asks Jessica whether his father knew about their lineage. If he had ancestral memories like people seem to think, he would know this answer, but the film portrays through the scene that this is not a rhetorical question, as Paul reacts to her answer.
The race consciousness is exactly that… Total Genetic Recollection of his ancestors lives, all of them. You’re saying the same thing but using different terms…
So the movie screws up the books. The scene from the movie is from the books but done at the wrong point. In the tent the 1st night after escaping the harkonnens is when he confronts Jessica about that and his knowledge of her carrying his sister and her name st alia of the knife. He saw the record systems in that dream showing the breeding program. This is due to the more concentrated dose of spice around him. After the water of life he has the genetic memories unlocked. Now when he confronts his son in the later books his vision is narrowed. The danger of presence is not being able to see past a choice you can not understand. Paul couldn't make the hard choice that leto did. That is why he was shocked he couldn't see as far as he did.
I know he knows what he's saying, but he isn't actually reading their dreams or having their memories. It's a trick to get them to fanatically believe in him. He uses his prescience, Bene Gesserit skills, and his knowledge of Fremen culture to convince them of his godhood.
The Water of Life ritual doesn't share memories, it just unlocks your genetic memory. From what I have read in the later books, sharing is possible but I don't think it happened with Paul.
Edit: About the later books. Haven't read them yet.
It did happen, its literally the only explanation. How could everything he say be true if he doesnt know it? Why do they believe him if its lies? Fremen wouldnt, not at that point in the Saga.
It is a trick, in the sense that him knowing these things doesnt mean shit, its not actual Divine Providence, he's just a Mentat with Genetic Memory who can make very good guesses about the future since he has so much Data to do so (which is what Mentat do, they turn Data into predictions and computations). He IS manipulating them. But he's using the information he just received and compiled to do it, he is using knowledge he has seen from the Sharing.
Its not the Water of Life ritual that makes the Sharing, its the Sharing that occurs after it that does. One must assume Paul had it, either through Jessica (we see its more telepathic in the Movie, so its 100% possible. It was by Touch in the books, and indeed if they had kept the Sharing to be done via physical contact, I might agree with you, but they didnt), or Chani's Tear.
You know what, I am wrong when it comes to memory transfer. The transfer did happen. As far as the dream reading goes though, that is still him using his visions and personal knowledge to learn the right words to say.
Well, yes, the powers of prescience aren't magic. He's not a telepath. The memory transfer is shakier, but that could be explained as knowledge being encoded into the chemical structure of the Water of Life or some sci-fi pseudoscience like that. He knows the words to say because he has the memories to say them. He knew the mother of the first Fremen he confronted as if he'd lived her life because he had. He remembered her pain and her aspirations. He knew the dreams of the naib (and make no mistake, he *did* know them, he wasn't just guessing) because he knew enough about him, about the Fremen, and about Arrakis to predict without a shadow of doubt what that man had been dreaming, an infinitesimal prediction that is a grain of sand in the vast desert of Paul's prescient vision.
In Messiah, this power is so great that (spoiler warning) >!even after he is completely blinded by an attempted assassination, Paul is able to stare at and describe in full detail a naib who had been whispering about his disability, from his specific identity to the clothes he wore to the words he had said, all while the man is a considerable distance away and part of a much larger crowd. In fact, he can do this for everyone, as he has already foreseen almost all the events that would transpire before the end, and it is this ability that allows him to skirt the Fremen tradition of the blind walking into the desert - Muad'dib is not blind, for he possesses sight beyond sight.!<
I believe this may stem from a confusion of language. You say Paul's abilities are a "trick," and I believe the people downvoting you hear it in the sense of "magic trick," a mere illusion. But Paul's powers are very real. He *knows* all the things he says, and his knowledge stems from a combination of firsthand experience via Other Memory and prediction via spice exposure, eugenics, Bene Gesserit training, and Mentat training. The only "trick" is deceiving the Fremen into believing he is a messenger of God, when such individuals simply do not exist within the universe of Dune. His powers are derived from the material world, not from an ethereal divinity, and he is not the Mahdi, but a prophet and aspiring tyrant manipulating the Fremen to accomplish his ends.
You say he’s “using his visions and personal knowledge to learn the right words to say” as if that’s not really him seeing it in a supernatural way. It would be like me using my (hypothetical) decades of education, memory and learning to know certain historical facts… if I’m using my brain to “learn the right words to say” in response to a historical fact, am I ‘cheating’ or do I just actually really know the answer?
It is in a "supernatural" way. He does know what he is saying is true, in the case of memory, he has actually been there with his other memory. Using his mentat mind to know what these people dreamed off and exactly what to say to make this person believe in him, that and the knowledge from his visions on what to say to him. So, if you are able to answer someone questions so accurately that it makes them believe you are God when you aren't, you are "cheating" them, as in you are fooling them into thinking you are divine. Kinda.
Ah OK I think I misunderstood what you were saying sorry - I thought you meant him seeing and saying what he says is not real just a trick to look special. I agree with you that whilst it is no trick, he is definitely ‘playing’ upon their beliefs/religion/fanatacism implanted by the mission protectiva to get them to follow him. If not for their beliefs, they very well may say we don’t care if you have supernatural powers we don’t want to follow an outworlder
You are correct. Paul is not the "Savior" Despite his abilities. He is much more powerful than any Bene Gesserit but compared to Leto II he doesn't have a worm to stand on
You’re sorta right and they did set it up for something that will happen later. This is also why I don’t think legendary is going to stop after messiah and they said that cryptic thing about if everyone approves the story. With spoiling there would be something that would come up in movie 4/5 where this comes back up.
Another aspect of that scene I love is when he reveals the signet ring and proclaims he is Duke of Arrakis and it cuts to Gurney who seems to be overwhelmed by emotion. Gurney’s whole identity has been based around serving House Atreides and he thought he’d lost that forever, dude became a fanatic right then and there when Paul put that ring on.
The film has done a disservice to the power Paul has after drinking the water of life. He really is the Kwisatz Haderach. The chosen one. The desired product of countless generations of breeding. He is all powerful. He's basically a god. He's not just a grifter taking advantage of the ignorant, like the film decided to imply. Really bugs me that Pauls scene after waking up from the water of life is dominated by Chanis unimportant reaction. Who cares what Chani thinks about it?! It should have focused on what just happened to Paul.
I would raise you that both the movie and the book implies Paul is also subjective to tennage drama... which to be honest, I would like it explored a little bit if possible by the next movie, before turning him into the old begger.
Truth be told, even with absolute knowledge, your biology and homonal reactions are still those of a teenager, so he will be throwing tantrums for the following years (and war), even though he is basically a walking encyclopedia with prestience powers.
(I didn't read the Brian Herbert's books, so I dont know how he is depicted in those years)
In that regard, showing Chani's reaction has some legitimacy.. as she knew him personally. It's like seeing your love one turning into Adolf Hitler.
Counter point, I think it would have been very difficult to pull off with the medium of film. Sort of like how half of Ender's Game takes place in Ender's mind and so it's been notoriously difficult to adapt despite being an all timer of a story. I don't necessarily disagree with you, it's just a thought I had on having a similar reflection on the movie as you.
Frank Herbert didn't like how people misunderstood that the Dune story was a cautionary tale, so he wrote Dune: Messiah. His intention was to warn of the dangers of building up a figure like that. This gets explained in the introduction of Dune: Messiah by his son, Brian.
Paul was capable of knowing/seeing anything. Once he took the water of life, that power went beyond his already pretty powerful on the scale of bene gesserit power. He certainly does know their dreams, can know their past. Can see surface thoughts of a person. This was a manipulation by definition but the movie doesnt do a good job of actually exploring how this is described. Nor does it do a good job of Pauls actual rise to Jihad. Of course that is considering the movie skips years of time spent with the fremen in favor of making Chani some strange antagonist, even though she is Paul's unwavering lover period.
Almost every answer here is wrong. Paul does not have access to genetic memory of the Fremen since he shares no blood with them (as OP rightfully points out). This speech is absolutely an exercise in manipulation at least the way it plays out in the book. In the book Paul doesn’t cite any memories as he does in the film, he uses the voice and his own reasoning to convince the Fremen that he is the one to lead them and then has Stilgar commit himself publicly to Muad’Dib’s cause which cements his authority given Stilgars role as one of the most respected Fremen Naibs.
So yes OP, if you happen to see this reply, you are right this scene (film and movie) is supposed to showcase how willing Paul and Jessica were to use the Fremen for their own ends by willingly accepting a religious mantle as Lisan al-Gaib which they both knew to be a bunch of BG bullshit.
Thanks! I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. He might have Fremen memory and he definitely used prescience to see the right words to say in order to get the proper outcome.
Jessica gained the ancestral memories of previous Reverend Mothers. A RM has genetic memories too but only along their maternal line so Jessica can access memories through her maternal ancestors as well as the memories of specific Reverend Mothers. Paul, as the KH, has both maternal and paternal ancestral memories but as he has no Fremen ancestry he doesn’t have access to any Fremen genetic memories.
Paul’s actions in the movie where he recites the memories of the Fedaykin would have been just him reciting what he saw in his vision in order to get them to accept his leadership
The only thing I can take from this post is that you have not read any of the books? If you don't read the books you don't have the source material. These are just visual representations of the deeper story that is included in the whole series.
I haven't read the books so I'm not exactly sure this is how things work. Once he drinks the Water of Life I thought he sees the past memories of all reverend mothers before him or is it all members of the bloodline? If its the reverend mother's memories he sees then perhaps the old one who Jessica replaced may have known those things. Or it could be that Paul is using his Bene Gesserit training in order to 'read' this Fremen through his body language.
Either way that speech is certainly Paul manipulating the Fremen into fighting for him. I'm not sure Paul actually believes he is the Lisan Al Gaib at this point and his motive is revenge for his house and father. By the end though I think he is actually starting to believe that he is this figure and the power is getting to him which is why he jumps straight into holy war with the other houses.
Or I could just be wrong and he really does have foresight and sees that this is the only way for him to survive.
I loved the movie. There were so many scenes like this that have stuck with me since seeing it. I can't wait to see where the story goes from here.
Drinking the Water of Life allowed Paul to become the one and only man who can access the genetic memory of his ancestors. Simultaneously it essentially unlocked Paul’s mind to the part that women who take the Water (Reverend Mothers) CANNOT access, to be able to clearly see the infinite threads of the future.
When Paul says he sees a “narrow path” forward where they can win, it is similar to Doctor Strange in Endgame holding up his finger to Tony, indicating there is JUST one path to victory out of however many million or billion possibilities. So think of every single action that Paul takes post Water of Life as adherent to that singular narrow path to victory.
He doesn’t believe himself to be the Lisan Al Gaib (he more than anyone knows the prophecy is bullshit) , but he becomes that to the Fremen because it is the ONLY path to survival
> it is similar to Doctor Strange in Endgame holding up his finger to Tony
It's kinda wild how many people knocked this as a writing crutch in Endgame, but it's basically the core of Dune
Execution and Medium are what makes these very distinct cases.
Dune being a Book, it has MUCH more time to explain this aspect of it, to integrate it within the plot in a way that both makes its narrative weakness less apparent, and its narrative strengths reinforced as well as pushed into the spotlight.
Its also much better written than anything Marvel has produced this last decade (or 2), so its quality makes the trope much less jarring. Much like how Time Travel novels that are actually good dont tend to be as absurd/filled with plot holes as most Time Travel movies.
Dune is an example of that Trope being done well, when these last 2 decades have been filled with bad examples of it, making us more likely to think its generally bad.
Its also why Dr strange’s actions seem incomprehensible at first (giving the stone, surrender etc) even though we already have real life AI doing such self destructive moves in chess but ultimately wins through foresight
The water of life unlocks all genetic memory so it isn't just the Reverend Mothers. In the case of Bene Gesserit, they can only unlock the female side of their memory but Paul has both the male and female side of his genetic memory unlocked because he is the Kwisatz Haderach. Jessica and Paul don't have Fremen blood so they don't get Fremen genetic memory. But, as you said, they are both experts in manipulation, and body language reading and Paul can see all possible futures.
The way Paul could know just what to say is either, he can have seen the future where they tell him these things and he learns it that way as some people have theorized, or my theory is that he sees the future where he says these things without knowing about it specifically and it works.
I don't believe he thinks he's actually the Messiah, he knows that it's a Bene Gesserit lie, he's just playing the part to get revenge for his father and because, in part, due to his own actions, this is the only way for the Fremen to survive. He does see all futures at once because of his unlocked mind. He's the same guy that Chani knew, it's just that now he knows for a fact that there is no escaping the holy war. He feels defeated because he sees no way to avoid the holy war in any future. That's why Paul is a really gray character, his fate is both his fault and the fault of those around him. He knowingly starts a war that will kill billions but at the same time, he never had a choice in that because of Bene Gesserit meddling.
Minor 1st Dune book spoilers, no spoilers for the future books:
>!They don't really spell it out but in the books, the Jihad will happen no matter how much Paul fights it, even if he dies, because of how big Maud'dib has gotten.!<
One of the things that hit me about the speech (I only saw it last night) was when he calls himself “Paul Moadib Atreides” instead of Usul Moadib. So basically using the Fremen to revive House Atreides rather than giving them independence and control of Arrakis again.
What did Paul actually say? What is the translation for what he said that whole period because I cannot for the life of me find the damn subtitles for it lol
Its how Path to Victory works with social fu.
In a way prescience also covers any understanding of a target’s past since it will reveal vulnerabilities through a Path, even if Paul doesn’t need to know the details. He is indeed all knowing no matter how you look at it, all things lead to same answer.
He does have these memories, because they were shared with him through his mother (who has them from the Water of Life ritual she made with the Fremen Reverend Mother), and possibly through Chani’s tear. He 100% knows what he is saying… Its not bullshit, he isnt making shit up, he KNOWS. Its the only reason the Fremen present, those individuals he directly addresses during the speech accepted him rather than rejected him, he essentially proved to them without an ounce of doubt that he knew the intricacies of their past... He gave them proof of the impossible. Fremen are the kind of people who kill those who blatantly lie, not submit to them out of fear. They wouldnt have reacted the way they did if they believed him to be lying.
Yeah, I don't understand OP at all or a lot of people moaning about the fanatical element. He's legitimately on some otherworldy super-power shit. It's not just some weird religious fanaticism. Paul is genuinely on one.
Well it is fanaticism because none of those things actually mean he's their savior, it simply means that he's been bred and raised to grasp these powers. That's actually the main point, yeah Paul can see possibilities due to the extent of his memories but he cannot actually see the future and he is not supernatural within the rules of the universe. It's like if Jesus was turning water to win with a hidden sodastream up his sleeves or came back because he took a drug that made him seem dead. On its face it is what it is but in many ways it betrays the most important aspect, its relation with God. Paul is not their Mahdi, he is an inheritor of memories who has had a spiritual red carpet rolled out to the Fremen thousands of years ago.
I think your Jesus analogy is way off the mark given the variety of trials Paul moved through to get to where he got at the end of the film. He is exceptional, having been bred to be or not doesn't change that.
He might not be literally supernatural, but he’s not like, a common snake oil salesman. Paul’s prescience, while not omniscience, is effectively indistinguishable from supernatural (if limited) ability in universe.
> but he cannot actually see the future and he is not supernatural within the rules of the universe. This is completely wrong. He literally can see the future and in fact his prescience is so powerful that he >!doesn't even need his eyes anymore in Dune Messiah!<. The terrible danger and stagnation prescience causes in the human race is one of the core plot points of the entire book series.
I think the whole Dune lore surrounding what Paul can or cannot do is a moving goalpost throughout the whole series. If he can completely see the future then the tarots shouldn't matter at all, and he should be able to see that he's having twins. In fact the whole point of him having twins and not knowing is to show that he cannot literally see the future.
No, the whole point is that >!up until then he literally didn't even need his eyes anymore because he could see the future so clearly.!< It wasn't until after something happened he didn't see that >!he actually went blind!<. Your argument relies on ignoring something like 2/3rds of Dune Messiah and the entirety of the core plot of the *entire rest of the series*.
He also knew kynes past in the first movie
I the first movie I'm pretty sure he's making an educated guess, and he's taking a risk.
He was using his limited presence and his deductive skills.
Question: So Paul after the Water of Life Ritual can read anything he wants on everyone he comes across? Or is it the memory of the Reverend Mothers on Arrakis, or everywhere? Like when he speaks to Liet Kynes in the first film he knows things about her and he is not wrong. Are these just characteristics of the KH? and then the Water of Life gives him ultimate clarity into the past and future? (I have just started the books so I only know the movies).
He probably cant see everyone, but instead chose a handful of people who he DID know the past of as examples, hoping the Fremen would assume he'd know these details about every single one of them, when no, that would not likely be the case. When Paul uses prescience, especially after the Water of Life (which simply gave him access to the memories of all his Male AND Female ancestors, meaning billions and billions of people), he is using his Mentat training (essentially a human computer) to process the data he has from his Genetic Memory into usable knowledge and information. And since he has so much of it, he can make VERY accurate guesses about how people will act in the now and in the future. The Spice makes this even easier, it "boosts" the brain to do this better, and the Spice is in every meal, coffee, breath of air and more on Arrakis, so he is constantly permeated with it. So yes, these are things he can do because he is the KH, but the KH isnt some propheciesed human of legends, or a magical thing, its just the cumulation of Human Eugenics done for 10 000 years by the Bene Gesserit to form a human able to do what they have figured to do (see within their DNA and access their Genetic Memory, but only for the X chromosome, so only Females) but better, due to being able to look into both the X and the Y chromosome, essentially gaining access to ALL human knowledge up to their 2 direct ancestors (Paul's parents). But the Sharing, which in the books require physical contact between 2 Reverend mother (or the KH) but in the movies seem Telepathic, allows transfer of this knowledge into a living Reverend Mother (or KH), rather than having to wait for the child to take the water of life, hopefully live, and THEN have your knowledge. Ouf, this is long, but hopefully it answers some of your questions well enough.
Thank you, thank you! I understand now--I think the extent of his powers was where it was a bit foggy--this clears it up quite a bit, like a boost of spice! The layers to this story are incredible and I cannot get enough of it!
I have to disagree with a little bit of what you said. The idea that it is just mental computation through memory + variable guessing from Mentat training is simply wrong. Paul also literally has prescience ability. Which means he can see into the future of complete random occurrences that he has no information that would lead to that conclusion. The idea that future sight is just probability calculation is incorrect because there are far too much randomness in nature. No amount of mentat calculation will let you know which specific sperm will fertilize an egg, so being able to see how a descendent will look like is impossible.
I agree. Frank Herbert didnt.
What mental calculations would he be able to do that would allow him to see a mental image of Chani while he was still on Caladan? Its obvious from book one he can see the future w/o it just being advanced probability solving.
Thats why I said I agree, but Frank didnt. He just didnt forsee that this would become a form of plot hole.
> Frank didnt You can say that all you want, it doesn't make it true. Paul's literal supernatural prescience is a major plot point, and the dangers of prescience in general are part of the core plot of the entire book series.
the water of life didnt just open him to other memory. it unlocked the kwisatz haderach. in simple terms, a kwisatz haderach is just a person with the genes and training to be a reverend mother, mentat, and guild navigator all at once without going insane. And once you have clarity on past (reverend mother), present (mentat), and future (guild navigator); its like a focusing of them all. remember, everything we are told is a lie. Alia and Leto are both Kwisatz Haderach, as was the Bene Tleillax KH. Another point, there is nothing stopping a woman from accessing male memories (alia), its just a superstition of the bene gesserit. But Paul did not have the same level of other memory as Alia or Leto, who can see ALL of their ancestors; while reverend mothers (and likely Paul?) can only see their bene gesserit 'ancestors'.
>Another point, there is nothing stopping a woman from accessing male memories (alia), its just a superstition of the bene gesserit. Nope. Women die if they try to access the male side. Alia is an abomination and has the same genetics pool as Paul.
who told you that? was it a bene gesserit reverend mother? \> Emperor Paul Muad'dib: 'We will not discuss the things your sisterhood forbids. I will hear no talk of sins, abominations, or the beliefs left over from past jihads \> Leto II: ' Your Sisterhood is nothing but a bunch of damn fool old women who haven't thought beyond their precious breeding program! '
The explanaition is spot on, but I would say he knew the history of almost everyone in the room from Jessica... as Jessica had all the Freman "history" data from the the older dying freman reverend mother that she replaced. He did have some contact with his mother, so it can easily be assumed that in some offrescreen or cut scene she would transfer all of her knowledge to him. Now my question remains... Would he be able to access all the Y-chromosome data from her mother's memories, or he is locked only to his own blood stream? I forgot how was this in the books, as I've read them a long long time ago.
Yes, thats my point, he knows it from Jessica, from the Sharing with her (which is “telepathic” in the movies, no need for touch). And yes, he can see ALL his ancestors, male and female, thats the point of the KH.
My question is more like.. Can he see all the ancestral male knowledge transfered from the freman mother to Jessica? Does the male knowledge cary through women even if unaccessible?
Oh, I get it now. Im not sure actually... But at worst, he will remember these men though the memories of the women they coexisted with, so he wont have as much data about them, but will still know much. But yeah, I dont think this is mentioned in the books, at least I never noticed anything about this in my readings (im on my 7th reading now).
he chooses the ones that he knows will have the right reaction and also are powerful enough to sway others. he basically uses theory of mind and prescience to get the desired outcome from the gathering.
Better just to handwave it with prescience. No spoilers, but his decendant comes across as basically omnipotent, so putting it in terms of genetic memory is just splitting hairs.
yeah this was one of the major failures of the movies. but to be honest you're reading the book so may as well experience how much better they are than the movies first hand.
This is wrong, both for the movie and for the book. Paul does not have ancestral memories, meaning active recollection of others lives, in the book nor in the movie. He has the ”other memory”, the race consciousness. This is proven by the lack of any mention of other’s memories in the books, and the shock he exhibits when Leto II shares his memories with Paul. They are not the same thing! What Paul has is a more subconscious thing. Btw, Jessica only has the shared memories from the reverend mother, not some ancestral memories from her female lineage. This is again proved by Leto II in Children of Dune, who remarks about it. In the movie, Paul asks Jessica whether his father knew about their lineage. If he had ancestral memories like people seem to think, he would know this answer, but the film portrays through the scene that this is not a rhetorical question, as Paul reacts to her answer.
The race consciousness is exactly that… Total Genetic Recollection of his ancestors lives, all of them. You’re saying the same thing but using different terms…
So the movie screws up the books. The scene from the movie is from the books but done at the wrong point. In the tent the 1st night after escaping the harkonnens is when he confronts Jessica about that and his knowledge of her carrying his sister and her name st alia of the knife. He saw the record systems in that dream showing the breeding program. This is due to the more concentrated dose of spice around him. After the water of life he has the genetic memories unlocked. Now when he confronts his son in the later books his vision is narrowed. The danger of presence is not being able to see past a choice you can not understand. Paul couldn't make the hard choice that leto did. That is why he was shocked he couldn't see as far as he did.
I know he knows what he's saying, but he isn't actually reading their dreams or having their memories. It's a trick to get them to fanatically believe in him. He uses his prescience, Bene Gesserit skills, and his knowledge of Fremen culture to convince them of his godhood. The Water of Life ritual doesn't share memories, it just unlocks your genetic memory. From what I have read in the later books, sharing is possible but I don't think it happened with Paul. Edit: About the later books. Haven't read them yet.
It did happen, its literally the only explanation. How could everything he say be true if he doesnt know it? Why do they believe him if its lies? Fremen wouldnt, not at that point in the Saga. It is a trick, in the sense that him knowing these things doesnt mean shit, its not actual Divine Providence, he's just a Mentat with Genetic Memory who can make very good guesses about the future since he has so much Data to do so (which is what Mentat do, they turn Data into predictions and computations). He IS manipulating them. But he's using the information he just received and compiled to do it, he is using knowledge he has seen from the Sharing. Its not the Water of Life ritual that makes the Sharing, its the Sharing that occurs after it that does. One must assume Paul had it, either through Jessica (we see its more telepathic in the Movie, so its 100% possible. It was by Touch in the books, and indeed if they had kept the Sharing to be done via physical contact, I might agree with you, but they didnt), or Chani's Tear.
You know what, I am wrong when it comes to memory transfer. The transfer did happen. As far as the dream reading goes though, that is still him using his visions and personal knowledge to learn the right words to say.
Well, yes, the powers of prescience aren't magic. He's not a telepath. The memory transfer is shakier, but that could be explained as knowledge being encoded into the chemical structure of the Water of Life or some sci-fi pseudoscience like that. He knows the words to say because he has the memories to say them. He knew the mother of the first Fremen he confronted as if he'd lived her life because he had. He remembered her pain and her aspirations. He knew the dreams of the naib (and make no mistake, he *did* know them, he wasn't just guessing) because he knew enough about him, about the Fremen, and about Arrakis to predict without a shadow of doubt what that man had been dreaming, an infinitesimal prediction that is a grain of sand in the vast desert of Paul's prescient vision. In Messiah, this power is so great that (spoiler warning) >!even after he is completely blinded by an attempted assassination, Paul is able to stare at and describe in full detail a naib who had been whispering about his disability, from his specific identity to the clothes he wore to the words he had said, all while the man is a considerable distance away and part of a much larger crowd. In fact, he can do this for everyone, as he has already foreseen almost all the events that would transpire before the end, and it is this ability that allows him to skirt the Fremen tradition of the blind walking into the desert - Muad'dib is not blind, for he possesses sight beyond sight.!< I believe this may stem from a confusion of language. You say Paul's abilities are a "trick," and I believe the people downvoting you hear it in the sense of "magic trick," a mere illusion. But Paul's powers are very real. He *knows* all the things he says, and his knowledge stems from a combination of firsthand experience via Other Memory and prediction via spice exposure, eugenics, Bene Gesserit training, and Mentat training. The only "trick" is deceiving the Fremen into believing he is a messenger of God, when such individuals simply do not exist within the universe of Dune. His powers are derived from the material world, not from an ethereal divinity, and he is not the Mahdi, but a prophet and aspiring tyrant manipulating the Fremen to accomplish his ends.
I agree with this. The visions are one thing, but the mix of genetic memory, mentat reasoning, and prescience are potent.
You say he’s “using his visions and personal knowledge to learn the right words to say” as if that’s not really him seeing it in a supernatural way. It would be like me using my (hypothetical) decades of education, memory and learning to know certain historical facts… if I’m using my brain to “learn the right words to say” in response to a historical fact, am I ‘cheating’ or do I just actually really know the answer?
It is in a "supernatural" way. He does know what he is saying is true, in the case of memory, he has actually been there with his other memory. Using his mentat mind to know what these people dreamed off and exactly what to say to make this person believe in him, that and the knowledge from his visions on what to say to him. So, if you are able to answer someone questions so accurately that it makes them believe you are God when you aren't, you are "cheating" them, as in you are fooling them into thinking you are divine. Kinda.
Ah OK I think I misunderstood what you were saying sorry - I thought you meant him seeing and saying what he says is not real just a trick to look special. I agree with you that whilst it is no trick, he is definitely ‘playing’ upon their beliefs/religion/fanatacism implanted by the mission protectiva to get them to follow him. If not for their beliefs, they very well may say we don’t care if you have supernatural powers we don’t want to follow an outworlder
You are correct. Paul is not the "Savior" Despite his abilities. He is much more powerful than any Bene Gesserit but compared to Leto II he doesn't have a worm to stand on
He could have been, he just really didn't *want* to
Everyone wants the prescience and the power until they realize how exactly they'll have to worm their way through the Golden Path.
You’re sorta right and they did set it up for something that will happen later. This is also why I don’t think legendary is going to stop after messiah and they said that cryptic thing about if everyone approves the story. With spoiling there would be something that would come up in movie 4/5 where this comes back up.
Could you tell me? I already know the full dune saga.
Exactly - I remember when Dune 1 first came out seeing a supposed release schedule where we were getting a DV Dune film every 2 years this decade.
Another aspect of that scene I love is when he reveals the signet ring and proclaims he is Duke of Arrakis and it cuts to Gurney who seems to be overwhelmed by emotion. Gurney’s whole identity has been based around serving House Atreides and he thought he’d lost that forever, dude became a fanatic right then and there when Paul put that ring on.
The film has done a disservice to the power Paul has after drinking the water of life. He really is the Kwisatz Haderach. The chosen one. The desired product of countless generations of breeding. He is all powerful. He's basically a god. He's not just a grifter taking advantage of the ignorant, like the film decided to imply. Really bugs me that Pauls scene after waking up from the water of life is dominated by Chanis unimportant reaction. Who cares what Chani thinks about it?! It should have focused on what just happened to Paul.
I would raise you that both the movie and the book implies Paul is also subjective to tennage drama... which to be honest, I would like it explored a little bit if possible by the next movie, before turning him into the old begger. Truth be told, even with absolute knowledge, your biology and homonal reactions are still those of a teenager, so he will be throwing tantrums for the following years (and war), even though he is basically a walking encyclopedia with prestience powers. (I didn't read the Brian Herbert's books, so I dont know how he is depicted in those years) In that regard, showing Chani's reaction has some legitimacy.. as she knew him personally. It's like seeing your love one turning into Adolf Hitler.
Counter point, I think it would have been very difficult to pull off with the medium of film. Sort of like how half of Ender's Game takes place in Ender's mind and so it's been notoriously difficult to adapt despite being an all timer of a story. I don't necessarily disagree with you, it's just a thought I had on having a similar reflection on the movie as you.
Pretty sure you're wrong since the Kwisatz Haderach was supposed to be one generation down which makes Leto II the true Kwisatz Haderach.
It's not Highlander. There can be more than one Kwisatz Haderach.
I see you haven’t read the later books yet.
Spoiler: >!Duncan Idaho wants to know your location!<
Frank Herbert didn't like how people misunderstood that the Dune story was a cautionary tale, so he wrote Dune: Messiah. His intention was to warn of the dangers of building up a figure like that. This gets explained in the introduction of Dune: Messiah by his son, Brian.
Paul sees their past. He goes to the south and tells the skeptics their past during the speech. They begin to believe and kneel. It is manipulative
Paul was capable of knowing/seeing anything. Once he took the water of life, that power went beyond his already pretty powerful on the scale of bene gesserit power. He certainly does know their dreams, can know their past. Can see surface thoughts of a person. This was a manipulation by definition but the movie doesnt do a good job of actually exploring how this is described. Nor does it do a good job of Pauls actual rise to Jihad. Of course that is considering the movie skips years of time spent with the fremen in favor of making Chani some strange antagonist, even though she is Paul's unwavering lover period.
Fear the moment
Almost every answer here is wrong. Paul does not have access to genetic memory of the Fremen since he shares no blood with them (as OP rightfully points out). This speech is absolutely an exercise in manipulation at least the way it plays out in the book. In the book Paul doesn’t cite any memories as he does in the film, he uses the voice and his own reasoning to convince the Fremen that he is the one to lead them and then has Stilgar commit himself publicly to Muad’Dib’s cause which cements his authority given Stilgars role as one of the most respected Fremen Naibs. So yes OP, if you happen to see this reply, you are right this scene (film and movie) is supposed to showcase how willing Paul and Jessica were to use the Fremen for their own ends by willingly accepting a religious mantle as Lisan al-Gaib which they both knew to be a bunch of BG bullshit.
Thanks! I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. He might have Fremen memory and he definitely used prescience to see the right words to say in order to get the proper outcome.
wait, wasn't it implied that his mother inherited the memories of Freeman from the past? the women who forced her to drink it seemed to believe so.
Jessica gained the ancestral memories of previous Reverend Mothers. A RM has genetic memories too but only along their maternal line so Jessica can access memories through her maternal ancestors as well as the memories of specific Reverend Mothers. Paul, as the KH, has both maternal and paternal ancestral memories but as he has no Fremen ancestry he doesn’t have access to any Fremen genetic memories. Paul’s actions in the movie where he recites the memories of the Fedaykin would have been just him reciting what he saw in his vision in order to get them to accept his leadership
The only thing I can take from this post is that you have not read any of the books? If you don't read the books you don't have the source material. These are just visual representations of the deeper story that is included in the whole series.
I haven't read the books so I'm not exactly sure this is how things work. Once he drinks the Water of Life I thought he sees the past memories of all reverend mothers before him or is it all members of the bloodline? If its the reverend mother's memories he sees then perhaps the old one who Jessica replaced may have known those things. Or it could be that Paul is using his Bene Gesserit training in order to 'read' this Fremen through his body language. Either way that speech is certainly Paul manipulating the Fremen into fighting for him. I'm not sure Paul actually believes he is the Lisan Al Gaib at this point and his motive is revenge for his house and father. By the end though I think he is actually starting to believe that he is this figure and the power is getting to him which is why he jumps straight into holy war with the other houses. Or I could just be wrong and he really does have foresight and sees that this is the only way for him to survive. I loved the movie. There were so many scenes like this that have stuck with me since seeing it. I can't wait to see where the story goes from here.
Drinking the Water of Life allowed Paul to become the one and only man who can access the genetic memory of his ancestors. Simultaneously it essentially unlocked Paul’s mind to the part that women who take the Water (Reverend Mothers) CANNOT access, to be able to clearly see the infinite threads of the future. When Paul says he sees a “narrow path” forward where they can win, it is similar to Doctor Strange in Endgame holding up his finger to Tony, indicating there is JUST one path to victory out of however many million or billion possibilities. So think of every single action that Paul takes post Water of Life as adherent to that singular narrow path to victory. He doesn’t believe himself to be the Lisan Al Gaib (he more than anyone knows the prophecy is bullshit) , but he becomes that to the Fremen because it is the ONLY path to survival
> it is similar to Doctor Strange in Endgame holding up his finger to Tony It's kinda wild how many people knocked this as a writing crutch in Endgame, but it's basically the core of Dune
Execution and Medium are what makes these very distinct cases. Dune being a Book, it has MUCH more time to explain this aspect of it, to integrate it within the plot in a way that both makes its narrative weakness less apparent, and its narrative strengths reinforced as well as pushed into the spotlight. Its also much better written than anything Marvel has produced this last decade (or 2), so its quality makes the trope much less jarring. Much like how Time Travel novels that are actually good dont tend to be as absurd/filled with plot holes as most Time Travel movies. Dune is an example of that Trope being done well, when these last 2 decades have been filled with bad examples of it, making us more likely to think its generally bad.
Its also why Dr strange’s actions seem incomprehensible at first (giving the stone, surrender etc) even though we already have real life AI doing such self destructive moves in chess but ultimately wins through foresight
The water of life unlocks all genetic memory so it isn't just the Reverend Mothers. In the case of Bene Gesserit, they can only unlock the female side of their memory but Paul has both the male and female side of his genetic memory unlocked because he is the Kwisatz Haderach. Jessica and Paul don't have Fremen blood so they don't get Fremen genetic memory. But, as you said, they are both experts in manipulation, and body language reading and Paul can see all possible futures. The way Paul could know just what to say is either, he can have seen the future where they tell him these things and he learns it that way as some people have theorized, or my theory is that he sees the future where he says these things without knowing about it specifically and it works. I don't believe he thinks he's actually the Messiah, he knows that it's a Bene Gesserit lie, he's just playing the part to get revenge for his father and because, in part, due to his own actions, this is the only way for the Fremen to survive. He does see all futures at once because of his unlocked mind. He's the same guy that Chani knew, it's just that now he knows for a fact that there is no escaping the holy war. He feels defeated because he sees no way to avoid the holy war in any future. That's why Paul is a really gray character, his fate is both his fault and the fault of those around him. He knowingly starts a war that will kill billions but at the same time, he never had a choice in that because of Bene Gesserit meddling. Minor 1st Dune book spoilers, no spoilers for the future books: >!They don't really spell it out but in the books, the Jihad will happen no matter how much Paul fights it, even if he dies, because of how big Maud'dib has gotten.!<
One of the things that hit me about the speech (I only saw it last night) was when he calls himself “Paul Moadib Atreides” instead of Usul Moadib. So basically using the Fremen to revive House Atreides rather than giving them independence and control of Arrakis again.
What did Paul actually say? What is the translation for what he said that whole period because I cannot for the life of me find the damn subtitles for it lol
Its how Path to Victory works with social fu. In a way prescience also covers any understanding of a target’s past since it will reveal vulnerabilities through a Path, even if Paul doesn’t need to know the details. He is indeed all knowing no matter how you look at it, all things lead to same answer.