Now that we are suffering through the effects of those tax cuts morons are blaming Biden. It's hard to believe that American voters were dumb enough to elect Donald Trump and are so dumb that they want to do it again.
I really hope they extend the tax decrease for the middle class and cut off the decrease for corporations. Increasing taxes on the working class is going to be a brutal cherry on top for how fucked the economy is right now. I’m already dreading losing 200-500 a month in income from property tax increases, inflation and the increase in taxes. It’s killing me
Gotcha, well for you im hopeful they make it easier. I’m not and my property taxes while high, aren’t high enough. I’ll see a 2500-3000 dollar increase that I can’t afford and I’m dreading it
That’s absolutely false. People that claim this are such fucking liars. You just can’t stand he actually lowered your taxes. Get off your shit.
And enjoy your 5 dollar gas.
It’s very much possible that you paid more under the plan, but you’re definitely in the minority. Letting the TCJA expire would result in higher taxes for the majority of low and middle class people
The whole point was to give a permanent tax break to the rich and a short term tax break to the low and middle class that were designed to go back up higher than they were before.
Yes they do. "**Large, permanent corporate tax cuts.** The centerpiece of the law was a deep, permanent cut in the corporate tax rate — from 35 percent to 21 percent — and a shift toward a territorial tax system, which exempts certain foreign income of multinational corporations from tax."
Why would you cherry pick a specific tax cut, while ignoring the permanent tax increases? Past 2026, corporations don’t have a net tax cut anymore, because their permanent increases offset the permanent rate cut. This had to happen in order to conform with the Byrd rule
Not only are you conflating “corporations” with “rich”, but you’re still wrong about the existence of any permanent cuts. Why are you calling other people dumb in this thread when you don’t even know the law?
Same as it ever was
George 'Dubya' Bush inherited a budget *surplus* from Clinton, immediately spent that, then pushed through two massive tax cuts for the big money folks while 'spending like drunken sailors', according to Sen John McCain, *and* starting two wars on the other side of the world
What could go wrong?
Well, the mortgage meltdown of late 2008
When Obama took office in Jan 2009 the nation in an economic death spiral. Obama then set course for the longest running bull market in US history, and *all* economic indicators showed steady improvement during the Obama years.
All trump ever did was inherit an excellent economy from Obama and then juice it with massive tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy, paid for with debt
Oh, by the way... trump also gave a modest TEMPORARY tax cut to the middle class (tossing a few crumbs to voters to get the massive corporate tax cut passed) - it expires next year, while the corporate tax cut is permanent
Allowing people to keep the money they earn - and spend and invest it the way they want - is FAR more productive than the govt confiscating it and figuring out where to waste it (along with the negative drag on it).
YOU are 100% the moron if you think tax cuts - and not increased spending and printing money - is a bigger negative to the deficit and the economy.
It’s a valid point.
I guess I hope some people here are open minded enough to recognize they might not know everything and approach discussions with an open mind.
I was fortunate enough to go to a HS and top business school that emphasized the Socratic method which taught one to use data and defend points, and to listen to opposing views and refute those with data and sound arguments. Clearly many others don’t subscribe to this view! 😂
Right because calling people a "100% moron" shows open-mindedness. Also, you have provided no data to defend your talking points and have given no argument other than "I'm right you're wrong."
You’ve been calling everyone Trump supporters, and clowns, and everything else under the sun, who don’t agree with you.
You have no idea who anyone voted for. Just because they aren’t hardline progressives (newsflash, most Americans outside of Reddit, aren’t buddy)
The irony.
That doesn’t matter when you continually repeat right wing propaganda due to your lack of being able to think for yourself. Right wing propaganda can fool anyone that is stupid regardless of political affiliation. FYI I am not a progressive.
You're claiming to be sooo smart, and maybe you are. However, you yourself are doing the same thing you're accusing others of doing. You're stretching your argument to fit your bias and pointing your finger across the aisle.
Everyone knows trickle down economics didn't/doesn't work. The rich are rich because they didn't let it trickle down. So no, letting the Uber wealthy keep their money hasn't been very productive. Arguing otherwise is just foolish.
Nor did turning on the fed money machine help matters. Both sides are guilty of reckless spending. How's that wall working out?
There's a solution to be had here and no, I don't know what it is. Although it seems neither do you. My point? Why don't you use your financial genius to help instead of bashing people? You said you wanted to help. What're you doing to help?
I appreciate your engagement and pointed comments and questions.
Couldn’t agree more with your third paragraph - both sides spent recklessly, turned the Fed machine on, and never turned it off, which F’d us all royally. Both Trump and Biden. And Bush and Obama. What amazes me are morons like OP who want to blame one side…and somehow have been brainwashed to believe it’s the “evil and greedy republicans”.
Well guess what? They are pretty much ALL self-serving narcissists who are acting in their own interests and enriching themselves. So the less money and power we give them, the better off the country will be. The Ds just have a better PR machine (the entire MSM less Fox) that puts out their side’s talking points better. Which is why morons line up to repeat their talking points - I’ll spare you repeating them here, you know what they all are.
I disagree with your second paragraph. Trickle down certainly works better than the govt deciding how to redistribute our money.
So while I certainly don’t have all the answers - or even most of them - I do know this. I would rather you, me, Elon Musk, and the guy mowing my lawn keep more of our/their money and decide where to spend and invest it versus handing it to the government to redistribute it…because the govt has proven that even when it DOES pick the right things to invest in, it is less efficient that how the private sector operates. Whereas I have a lot more confidence in you, me, and Elon making socially efficient decisions that maximizes overall economic outcomes.
So I’d posit - at a minimum - less govt, lower taxes, and less spending, and a dramatic cut in the administrative state.
As PJ O’Rourke famously said - “when buying and selling are controlled by the legislation, the first things bought and sold are the legislators.”
A few points:
saying that since both sides spend recklessly that they are the same is a poor argument. as one of the above posters mentioned, Obama taking a death-spiraling economy and turning it into a bull market is not something that either Bush or Trump would have done. Republicans have a much better propaganda machine as most Americans agree that they are better for the economy despite copious evidence to the contrary.
Trickle down economics has not worked as a wealth distribution vehicle. Quite the opposite. and there are numerous studies spanning decades of data to back that up (a simple google will give you plenty to read)
I also want to challenge you on the government being less effective when investing. I half agree but probably in the opposite direction. Taxes are paid for the benefit of all society (they are supposed to, at least). So investing in infrastructure, education, social security, emergency services, etc. are all done better by a government than a private entity because the main impetus for the investment is the betterment of society (again, in theory) not a guaranteed ROI for the shareholders. Not to mention having a large national entity to use it's leverage to keep costs low, modify zoning code to allow for better public facilities, and pull from multiple reliable revenue streams to actualize the projects. As someone who works in the AEC industry on both public and private projects, I can say with some certainty that the Musks of the world are no better at investing than your local municipal capital projects manager.
I am with you on lower taxes for the middle class, given the state of our public resources. But I would be first in line to pay more taxes if it meant that teachers made a living wage and there was a public healthcare option. Government spending is not great now, but it can be better if we toss out this terrible idea that giving the rich every advantage will somehow make everyone's lives better.
and to turn your PJ quote on it's head - "when buying and selling are controlled by the market, the first thing bought and sold is access to the market." (see Amazon)
Big issue with a lot of topics make this hard to discuss in short form comments, so please forgive if I've misconstrued/misunderstood any of your positions or arguments.
I think you captured my points perfectly, I don’t think you misconstrued anything.
But Obama’s economy was awful. Facts and data show that. His extensive regulations, redistributive policies, war on the wealthy, and higher taxes put the economy in a malaise. Real median income actually went DOWN from 2009 to 2014. He was the only president in history to not see economic growth exceed 3%…which frankly is amazing given where the economy was in 2008/2009 when he came into office. He literally called 2% economic growth the “new normal”.
I didn’t vote for Trump in 2016, I thought (and still think) he’s a thin skinned charlatan - and those may be among his best characteristics - but he came in to office and made Obama look like a fool. He cut taxes, reversed regulations, and blew through Obama’s “new normal” growing the economy by 3%, and then 4%, while getting the unemployment rate down to record lows, the labor participation rate to all time highs, minority unemployment to the best it’s ever been, and real median income to the highest on record. To say “Obama created a bull market” couldn’t be less accurate…that’s what Trump did, primarily with his tax and regulatory cuts.
Trickle down economics is not intended as a wealth distribution vehicle. Nobody would ever say it is. Supply side economics (of which trickle down is one component) is intended to grow the economy…with the rising tide lifting all boats. Contrary to your claim, there have been plenty of examples of it working well to push the economy forward, and I would encourage you to use the same google search, as there are as many examples of studies showing it works as there are showing that it doesn’t. It does not create wealth distribution, which shouldn’t even ever be a goal of an economic model. Senegal and Chad have better wealth distribution statistics than the US…should we follow that model? How about Pakistan?
I do agree with you on many of the things you said government should be responsible for. Infrastructure, national defense, and emergency services are certainly the top three. But they have long ago moved into things far outside of their purview, and have moved into the business of picking winners and losers. Solyndra, anyone?
We can agree to disagree, but I always come back to one basic concept, that certainly tilts me towards the conservative/libertarian side of the spectrum - taxpayers have a far better chance of productively spending and investing what they earn than what a government bureaucrat does.
Thanks.
PS - your comment on Republicans having a better PR machine is just absurd. To address this, I’d only have to point you to how far left virtually every single institution in the US has become (universities and all of academia, the media, pro sports leagues, the government, Hollywood, etc etc etc LOL).
Agree to disagree for sure. I think a big part of our disconnect is what we mean when we say economy. It's a nebulous term that, like the statistics it relies on, can be interpreted to mean whatever the speaker needs it to mean in their argumentation.
Obama's economy was a literal recession, his policies (arguably) staved off a full blown depression. It was awful compared to Bush's "spend like drunken sailors" budgetary strategy, but then again, Obama was handed two failing wars and a banking implosion rather than a national budget surplus.
I did try to google the benefits of supply side economics and could only find sarcastic articles or full on debunking of highly partisan 'think pieces', no actual data. Please provide links if your algorithm is giving you better information.
I love a good "Solyndra" whataboutism. The Bush presidency might as well be called the Haliburton presidency. Again, all the things you hate about government, the Republicans do the worst.
I do understand the viewpoint of conservative/libertarians, I disagree but I understand. I would challenge you to review your priors. Obviously, more of your hard earned money in your hands will be better invested but you are also well educated and knowledgeable in econ and finance. The vast majority of Americans are woefully undereducated in these fields and are prime targets for anyone looking to take advantage of that information gap. MLMs, NFTs, Crypto, etc. are all great recent or current examples of people trying to make some extra money by giving money to snake oil salesmen. I think we should have to pay as much tax as to give everyone a fair shot at making a good life for themselves, however they decide to define that life. If that makes me a socialist leftist then I guess I'm a socialist leftist.
PS - Thinking that academia, the media, and sports leagues are 'far left' proves how far the right has pushed the Overton window on what 'left' means which would point to them being the better propaganda machine. but that's politics, and this is an economy forum.
Not to cherry-pick specific comments to respond to, but as our essays are dragging long, I will say on one point you are not making any sense…to compare Halliburton to Solyndra is a head scratcher. I’m not even sure what you are getting at there?
One was a brand new company that couldn’t compete in the marketplace and was given half a billion dollars by Obama less than a year before it declared bankruptcy…and poof!…money is gone. The other is one of the leading O&G multinational corporations in the world that has been around for a century and wasn’t handed free money. How are you even equating the two?
wasn't handed free money? bruh. the amount of no-bid contracts handed to them without any competition is absurd. not to mention Cheney, as Secretary of Defense, commissioned Haliburton to do a study to see if military intelligence could be privatized (they said it could be, shocker) and then handed them a 5 year contract to do so (worth $2.5billion (in 1993 dollars no less)) that skirted government oversight because private company didn't want 'trade secrets' leaked. Out of all of the corrupt politicians out the Dick Cheney is absolutely the most diabolical and antithetical to the entire enterprise of American governance. Please read a book on that man and his company.
but you're right, I shouldn't compare the two, Haliburton is far and away worse. Solyndra was bad, too, but not even close to the magnitude of decades of syphoning tax payer dollars through strategic placement of cronies in top positions of government.
Cutting through your diatribe, the reality is that Halliburton, as a long established company, provided both goods and services to the US - in many cases where there was no other company that could provide those goods and services - whereas Solyndra (owned by one of obama’s biggest donors, by the way, if we want to talk corruption) was handed half a billion dollars for literally nothing and went bankrupt less than a year later. And you’re comparing the two?
That’s not even apples and oranges, that’s apples and toaster ovens.
Totally. That why you saw that raging inflation after those tax cuts in 2017 in 2018, 2019, and 2020 that averaged less than 2% and never eclipsed 3% in any single month, right?
And only hit 9% in 2022 after Biden went on a $3T+ money printing spree throughout 2021?
Please go to bed…the grown ups are trying to have a discussion.
I started betting on an inflationary economy after the TCJA and won. Inflation takes time to bake itself into the economy. The main difference between Trump's money printing spree and Biden's is that Biden spent money on infrastructure, and spending on infrastructure will always boost the economy. Trump spent money on giving billionaires a free gift in terms of tax cuts but had to borrow the money to do it. Trump also just buckshoted COVID relief to anybody and everybody in the most careless fashion we have ever seen. While I agree that the US debt is at a terrifying level right now, Trump is who created the bulk of it. At least Biden spent the money on growing the economy. Trump spent it on making billionaires happy.
Buttigieg looked great on CBS this morning explaining how the $7.5 BILLION investment into EV stations in 2021 has now managed to produce SEVEN new stations across the US.
SEVEN.
In three years.
$7.5 BILLION.
That’s amazing work!
Yeah. And to reach 500,000 charging stations by 2030 is a joke! Where’s the rest of the $7.5 billion since they only installed 7 so far? Probably in his pocket along with his other politicians friends. lol
I’ll keep my gas car and not have to wait and take that much longer to get to my destination due to charging multiple times.
LOL at your take that it went to “infrastructure”. Like most massive spending bills enacted when coming in as a new president, it was chock full of pork laden spending rewarding those who helped get him elected.
While the Covid spending was stupid and rife with fraud - like 100% of every govt program - at least it was broad based and driven by the govt forcing people to give up their livelihoods in the face of a global pandemic (also f-ing stupid but that’s a story for another day). Biden’s trillions in spending was crony capitalism and giveaways to his friends.
If by rewarding those who got him elected you mean the American people then you are correct. The bill was chock full of tax credits aimed at everyday Americans.
The Trump tax cuts were $2T (over 10 years) and were enacted in 2017. The Covid stimulus was $5T (all at once) and was done in 2020-2021. Which one do you think caused the recent inflation? Even morons can answer this question correctly.
One of those was a choice to enrich the few at everyone else's expense. The other staved off massive human and economic collapse. Your priorities are twisted.
Enrich? You mean the less from. And revenues increased after the tax cuts. Revenue is a trillion dollars higher since the year the cuts went into effect.
The tax cuts added very little to the deficit at $200B a year. The stimulus that Trump passed (PPP and CARES) was $3T which was 15 times bigger and had a much bigger effect on inflation than the tax cuts.
Numbers matter.
You original post was about the tax cuts. If you want to talk about those issues, make another post.
Bush passed tax cuts (bad) but Obama reversed them.
Trump passed tax cuts (bad) but why didn't Biden reverse them?
If he did, the deficit and inflation might not have been so bad.
Trump added 8.4 Trillion dollars to the debt. Without those tax cuts we would have had more money to deal with the pandemic and less debt. It's just another way that he screwed average Americans. Trump's tax cuts have actually cost about 1.7 trillion so far. Biden is planning on raising taxes on the wealthy in 2025.
You really can't do math huh? The tax cuts were $200B of that $8400B (2.3%).
The tax cuts have not cost $1.7T so far as that number was over 10 years.
Most of the debt under Trump came from Covid stimulus.
Biden did no better and he will leave with $8T added to the debt. He had four years to raise taxes and didn't do it. If he wins, he might not have the Senate or the House in 2025 so he won't be able to raise taxes.
"Biden left out that the debt under his watch is on pace to exceed Trump’s one-term debt accumulation by the end of his current term, Jan. 20, 2025. During his first three years, Biden already accumulated $6.32 trillion in debt. For his final year, the nonpartisan [Congressional Budget Office](https://www.cbo.gov/publication/59946) has projected a deficit of $1.582 trillion. Add those two figures together and you get $7.902 trillion as Biden’s four-year total."
[https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2024/mar/12/joe-biden/fact-checking-joe-biden-on-debt-accumulated-under/](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2024/mar/12/joe-biden/fact-checking-joe-biden-on-debt-accumulated-under/)
As I said, numbers matter and both presidents are among the worst ever in terms of debt and inflation.
The cost of those tax cuts is actually at 1.7 Trillion as of June 2023 and are expected to reach 2.3 million by the end of the year and they contribute to Biden's deficit along with the interest that needs to be paid. This happens every time we elect a Republican President. They blow up the economy and then the Democrat stuck fixing the problem gets blamed for not fixing it fast enough.
Trump tax cut negative impact would have totaled $1.25T over 10 years if revenue that was promised didn't show up, according to CBO.
Revenue vastly exceeded expectations. There was no negative tax impact for the tax cuts.
I thought the democrats added $6T? Either way, your point is valid.
Morons can answer that question, but democrats aren't morons. They're useful idiots.
In reality today's Republican voters are the dumbest voters in American history. They have been brainwashed by right wing propaganda into voting for a criminal conman traitor. Talk about useful idiots.
…yet somehow, Biden is still managing to lose independents and some democrats to him.
Stop saying “republicans” that ship sailed bye bye long ago.
You leftists on crazy island have nobody to blame but yourselves for this. Enjoy the show.
I want what you are smoking, the debt during Bush, Obama and Trump was driven by 2 wars we could ill afford. Biden's is driven by the pandemic lock down, which was brought about by democrat governors in an effort to get voting laws changed and thereby win 2020.
Right wing propaganda has created a nation of idiots. Anyone that keeps repeating the election lie is a complete moron and should not be taken seriously.
Democrats pretend care about the defecit when opposing republican policy yet support trillions in defecit spending when it favors them.
This video is nonsense and pure political trash.
All that says to me is that democrats want to tax more. Both parties spend like there’s no tomorrow because debt doesn’t matter when it’s borrowed in the currency you print.
Listen carefully. Schumer seems to be ok with boosting the wealthy as long as there’s a little trickle down for the average worker. How gracious, Chuck. Fuck these neoliberal shitheads.
That’s always been the plan. Read about “starve the beast”. The republican fiscal responsibility act has always been a lie. And sadly I didn’t learn it until the second W. Election.
The democrats invented interest?
The debt is the result of decades of republicans jacking up the deficit every time they’re in power. Deliberately. It’s not that hard to confirm.
Trump sent out two checks, Biden one. That ended three years ago. A lot was spent on vaccines and heath infrastructure.
But if you think the deficit wasn’t a problem before that, then I’ve got a shocked pikachu face I’ll sell you.
And while I disagree with it, it’s not enough to stimulate anything or contribute to inflation. It’s a hundreds billion averaged over the life of a typical student loan which is decades.
A hundred billion over twenty or thirty years is a rounding error.
Yeah, it’s window dressing and won’t make any difference without finance reform but its effect on the deficit is all but unmeasurable.
Ironically covid helicopter money impacted inflation very little because it boosted the velocity of money.
Now the $9 trillion the fed borrowed to bail out Wallstreet totally boosted inflation.
COVID spending, yes. We had to do something to help people. The execution was Republican. They had the majority. Recall how it was pushed out with minimal oversight and then on top of that the Trump admin scaled back oversight and enforcement even more.
No, under Trump, PPP and CARES were written and passed by Pelosi. She wanted even more than $3T.
[https://time.com/5918603/nancy-pelosi-coronavirus-relief-deal/](https://time.com/5918603/nancy-pelosi-coronavirus-relief-deal/)
[https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/12/house-democrats-pelosi-new-3-trillion-coronavirus-relief-plan-251407](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/12/house-democrats-pelosi-new-3-trillion-coronavirus-relief-plan-251407)
It passed under Trump, they passed a separate extension/revision of the program in December 2020 as your articles say. The CARES Act was signed in to law by Trump as a $2.2 trillion dollar bill and signedc by Trump in March. It created the PPP program.
All spending originates in the House. Pelosi wrote all those bills and wanted more. Senate under McConnell tried to make it smaller.
Trump would have signed anything that passed Congress.
Of course they’ll cost a lot now because the federal budget was raised commensurate with the amount of tax cuts the moment Trump left office. The additional spending afterwards and the student loan forgiveness has fucked all of it.
You can't say only the rich benefitted. My family benefitted from the cuts. We don't make anywhere near the $400,000 threshold the administration uses.
You can't just claim that an already-existing tax cut would suddenly become 20 times more expensive next year, and just cite "the CBO". That's like citing "the library". Try giving a real source.
The CBOs entire job is to calculate expected financial impacts of proposed legislation. They are absolutely a legitimate source. Don’t politicize the CBO, they do the same boring g job regardless of D or R president.
Also the costs are always projected to a 10 year total. It’s absolutely stupid politicians, news companies, think tanks, etc never mention that except sometimes in the article. So it’s 460 billion per year and obviously that’s compared to letting them naturally expire.
I wonder what he was promised by the repubs. Just goes to show all the fighting that happens in front of the cameras goes right out the door when they're making deals under the table just for the benefit of everyone at Capital Hill.
Liar Liar Pants on Fire. This is all political posturing because he wants to raise taxes because that is what Democrats do, The truth is that after the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act Revenue to the government from individual Income Taxes INCREASED and through 2023 it had increased 40%. Corporate tax revenue since the tax cuts has doubled.
Schumer knows better. He is just gaslighting the American public because most people aren't inclined to research the information for themselves and he knows he can get away with this blatant lie.
The reason the deficit increased after the Tax Cuts was because Democrats increased spending more than revenue increased. It is simple math.
Its not a ~~tax~~ theft problem, its a spending problem. If the government stole more money it will just find even more destructive things to spend it on and expand. Everything the government does is destructive and everyone that is within or works for the government produce nothing of value.
This is like a serial rapist saying because there is a lesser quantity of victims to rape, this is costing the rapist x victims per year.
This same logic would be me telling my boss it's his fault I'm going more into debt because I refuse to give up my bmw car loan and since he didn't give me a raise this is his fault!!
Now that we are suffering through the effects of those tax cuts morons are blaming Biden. It's hard to believe that American voters were dumb enough to elect Donald Trump and are so dumb that they want to do it again.
I really hope they extend the tax decrease for the middle class and cut off the decrease for corporations. Increasing taxes on the working class is going to be a brutal cherry on top for how fucked the economy is right now. I’m already dreading losing 200-500 a month in income from property tax increases, inflation and the increase in taxes. It’s killing me
I've paid more under Trump's tax plan.
Are you affected by the SALT provision?
Yes
Gotcha, well for you im hopeful they make it easier. I’m not and my property taxes while high, aren’t high enough. I’ll see a 2500-3000 dollar increase that I can’t afford and I’m dreading it
That’s absolutely false. People that claim this are such fucking liars. You just can’t stand he actually lowered your taxes. Get off your shit. And enjoy your 5 dollar gas.
Trump supporters are the dumbest of the dumb.
It’s very much possible that you paid more under the plan, but you’re definitely in the minority. Letting the TCJA expire would result in higher taxes for the majority of low and middle class people
The whole point was to give a permanent tax break to the rich and a short term tax break to the low and middle class that were designed to go back up higher than they were before.
That wasn’t the point, because what you just said isn’t true. The rich don’t get a permanent tax cut from the bill
Yes they do. "**Large, permanent corporate tax cuts.** The centerpiece of the law was a deep, permanent cut in the corporate tax rate — from 35 percent to 21 percent — and a shift toward a territorial tax system, which exempts certain foreign income of multinational corporations from tax."
Why would you cherry pick a specific tax cut, while ignoring the permanent tax increases? Past 2026, corporations don’t have a net tax cut anymore, because their permanent increases offset the permanent rate cut. This had to happen in order to conform with the Byrd rule Not only are you conflating “corporations” with “rich”, but you’re still wrong about the existence of any permanent cuts. Why are you calling other people dumb in this thread when you don’t even know the law?
Same as it ever was George 'Dubya' Bush inherited a budget *surplus* from Clinton, immediately spent that, then pushed through two massive tax cuts for the big money folks while 'spending like drunken sailors', according to Sen John McCain, *and* starting two wars on the other side of the world What could go wrong? Well, the mortgage meltdown of late 2008 When Obama took office in Jan 2009 the nation in an economic death spiral. Obama then set course for the longest running bull market in US history, and *all* economic indicators showed steady improvement during the Obama years. All trump ever did was inherit an excellent economy from Obama and then juice it with massive tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy, paid for with debt Oh, by the way... trump also gave a modest TEMPORARY tax cut to the middle class (tossing a few crumbs to voters to get the massive corporate tax cut passed) - it expires next year, while the corporate tax cut is permanent
Allowing people to keep the money they earn - and spend and invest it the way they want - is FAR more productive than the govt confiscating it and figuring out where to waste it (along with the negative drag on it). YOU are 100% the moron if you think tax cuts - and not increased spending and printing money - is a bigger negative to the deficit and the economy.
Wow right wing propaganda has created a nation of morons shilling for rich people.
A career in economics, finance and capital markets has created someone who understands those things.
Clearly that's not you.
It most certainly is.
This is Reddit. Home of “anti work” and people like this clown. Do you really think you’ll reach them?
It’s a valid point. I guess I hope some people here are open minded enough to recognize they might not know everything and approach discussions with an open mind. I was fortunate enough to go to a HS and top business school that emphasized the Socratic method which taught one to use data and defend points, and to listen to opposing views and refute those with data and sound arguments. Clearly many others don’t subscribe to this view! 😂
Right because calling people a "100% moron" shows open-mindedness. Also, you have provided no data to defend your talking points and have given no argument other than "I'm right you're wrong."
If the shoe fits….
Is everything you say straight out of the right wing propaganda handbook because you lack the ability to think for yourself?
You’ve been calling everyone Trump supporters, and clowns, and everything else under the sun, who don’t agree with you. You have no idea who anyone voted for. Just because they aren’t hardline progressives (newsflash, most Americans outside of Reddit, aren’t buddy) The irony.
That doesn’t matter when you continually repeat right wing propaganda due to your lack of being able to think for yourself. Right wing propaganda can fool anyone that is stupid regardless of political affiliation. FYI I am not a progressive.
Are you rich?
Yes. Very.
Lol sure you are?
Last I checked.
You're claiming to be sooo smart, and maybe you are. However, you yourself are doing the same thing you're accusing others of doing. You're stretching your argument to fit your bias and pointing your finger across the aisle. Everyone knows trickle down economics didn't/doesn't work. The rich are rich because they didn't let it trickle down. So no, letting the Uber wealthy keep their money hasn't been very productive. Arguing otherwise is just foolish. Nor did turning on the fed money machine help matters. Both sides are guilty of reckless spending. How's that wall working out? There's a solution to be had here and no, I don't know what it is. Although it seems neither do you. My point? Why don't you use your financial genius to help instead of bashing people? You said you wanted to help. What're you doing to help?
I appreciate your engagement and pointed comments and questions. Couldn’t agree more with your third paragraph - both sides spent recklessly, turned the Fed machine on, and never turned it off, which F’d us all royally. Both Trump and Biden. And Bush and Obama. What amazes me are morons like OP who want to blame one side…and somehow have been brainwashed to believe it’s the “evil and greedy republicans”. Well guess what? They are pretty much ALL self-serving narcissists who are acting in their own interests and enriching themselves. So the less money and power we give them, the better off the country will be. The Ds just have a better PR machine (the entire MSM less Fox) that puts out their side’s talking points better. Which is why morons line up to repeat their talking points - I’ll spare you repeating them here, you know what they all are. I disagree with your second paragraph. Trickle down certainly works better than the govt deciding how to redistribute our money. So while I certainly don’t have all the answers - or even most of them - I do know this. I would rather you, me, Elon Musk, and the guy mowing my lawn keep more of our/their money and decide where to spend and invest it versus handing it to the government to redistribute it…because the govt has proven that even when it DOES pick the right things to invest in, it is less efficient that how the private sector operates. Whereas I have a lot more confidence in you, me, and Elon making socially efficient decisions that maximizes overall economic outcomes. So I’d posit - at a minimum - less govt, lower taxes, and less spending, and a dramatic cut in the administrative state. As PJ O’Rourke famously said - “when buying and selling are controlled by the legislation, the first things bought and sold are the legislators.”
A few points: saying that since both sides spend recklessly that they are the same is a poor argument. as one of the above posters mentioned, Obama taking a death-spiraling economy and turning it into a bull market is not something that either Bush or Trump would have done. Republicans have a much better propaganda machine as most Americans agree that they are better for the economy despite copious evidence to the contrary. Trickle down economics has not worked as a wealth distribution vehicle. Quite the opposite. and there are numerous studies spanning decades of data to back that up (a simple google will give you plenty to read) I also want to challenge you on the government being less effective when investing. I half agree but probably in the opposite direction. Taxes are paid for the benefit of all society (they are supposed to, at least). So investing in infrastructure, education, social security, emergency services, etc. are all done better by a government than a private entity because the main impetus for the investment is the betterment of society (again, in theory) not a guaranteed ROI for the shareholders. Not to mention having a large national entity to use it's leverage to keep costs low, modify zoning code to allow for better public facilities, and pull from multiple reliable revenue streams to actualize the projects. As someone who works in the AEC industry on both public and private projects, I can say with some certainty that the Musks of the world are no better at investing than your local municipal capital projects manager. I am with you on lower taxes for the middle class, given the state of our public resources. But I would be first in line to pay more taxes if it meant that teachers made a living wage and there was a public healthcare option. Government spending is not great now, but it can be better if we toss out this terrible idea that giving the rich every advantage will somehow make everyone's lives better. and to turn your PJ quote on it's head - "when buying and selling are controlled by the market, the first thing bought and sold is access to the market." (see Amazon) Big issue with a lot of topics make this hard to discuss in short form comments, so please forgive if I've misconstrued/misunderstood any of your positions or arguments.
I think you captured my points perfectly, I don’t think you misconstrued anything. But Obama’s economy was awful. Facts and data show that. His extensive regulations, redistributive policies, war on the wealthy, and higher taxes put the economy in a malaise. Real median income actually went DOWN from 2009 to 2014. He was the only president in history to not see economic growth exceed 3%…which frankly is amazing given where the economy was in 2008/2009 when he came into office. He literally called 2% economic growth the “new normal”. I didn’t vote for Trump in 2016, I thought (and still think) he’s a thin skinned charlatan - and those may be among his best characteristics - but he came in to office and made Obama look like a fool. He cut taxes, reversed regulations, and blew through Obama’s “new normal” growing the economy by 3%, and then 4%, while getting the unemployment rate down to record lows, the labor participation rate to all time highs, minority unemployment to the best it’s ever been, and real median income to the highest on record. To say “Obama created a bull market” couldn’t be less accurate…that’s what Trump did, primarily with his tax and regulatory cuts. Trickle down economics is not intended as a wealth distribution vehicle. Nobody would ever say it is. Supply side economics (of which trickle down is one component) is intended to grow the economy…with the rising tide lifting all boats. Contrary to your claim, there have been plenty of examples of it working well to push the economy forward, and I would encourage you to use the same google search, as there are as many examples of studies showing it works as there are showing that it doesn’t. It does not create wealth distribution, which shouldn’t even ever be a goal of an economic model. Senegal and Chad have better wealth distribution statistics than the US…should we follow that model? How about Pakistan? I do agree with you on many of the things you said government should be responsible for. Infrastructure, national defense, and emergency services are certainly the top three. But they have long ago moved into things far outside of their purview, and have moved into the business of picking winners and losers. Solyndra, anyone? We can agree to disagree, but I always come back to one basic concept, that certainly tilts me towards the conservative/libertarian side of the spectrum - taxpayers have a far better chance of productively spending and investing what they earn than what a government bureaucrat does. Thanks. PS - your comment on Republicans having a better PR machine is just absurd. To address this, I’d only have to point you to how far left virtually every single institution in the US has become (universities and all of academia, the media, pro sports leagues, the government, Hollywood, etc etc etc LOL).
Agree to disagree for sure. I think a big part of our disconnect is what we mean when we say economy. It's a nebulous term that, like the statistics it relies on, can be interpreted to mean whatever the speaker needs it to mean in their argumentation. Obama's economy was a literal recession, his policies (arguably) staved off a full blown depression. It was awful compared to Bush's "spend like drunken sailors" budgetary strategy, but then again, Obama was handed two failing wars and a banking implosion rather than a national budget surplus. I did try to google the benefits of supply side economics and could only find sarcastic articles or full on debunking of highly partisan 'think pieces', no actual data. Please provide links if your algorithm is giving you better information. I love a good "Solyndra" whataboutism. The Bush presidency might as well be called the Haliburton presidency. Again, all the things you hate about government, the Republicans do the worst. I do understand the viewpoint of conservative/libertarians, I disagree but I understand. I would challenge you to review your priors. Obviously, more of your hard earned money in your hands will be better invested but you are also well educated and knowledgeable in econ and finance. The vast majority of Americans are woefully undereducated in these fields and are prime targets for anyone looking to take advantage of that information gap. MLMs, NFTs, Crypto, etc. are all great recent or current examples of people trying to make some extra money by giving money to snake oil salesmen. I think we should have to pay as much tax as to give everyone a fair shot at making a good life for themselves, however they decide to define that life. If that makes me a socialist leftist then I guess I'm a socialist leftist. PS - Thinking that academia, the media, and sports leagues are 'far left' proves how far the right has pushed the Overton window on what 'left' means which would point to them being the better propaganda machine. but that's politics, and this is an economy forum.
Not to cherry-pick specific comments to respond to, but as our essays are dragging long, I will say on one point you are not making any sense…to compare Halliburton to Solyndra is a head scratcher. I’m not even sure what you are getting at there? One was a brand new company that couldn’t compete in the marketplace and was given half a billion dollars by Obama less than a year before it declared bankruptcy…and poof!…money is gone. The other is one of the leading O&G multinational corporations in the world that has been around for a century and wasn’t handed free money. How are you even equating the two?
wasn't handed free money? bruh. the amount of no-bid contracts handed to them without any competition is absurd. not to mention Cheney, as Secretary of Defense, commissioned Haliburton to do a study to see if military intelligence could be privatized (they said it could be, shocker) and then handed them a 5 year contract to do so (worth $2.5billion (in 1993 dollars no less)) that skirted government oversight because private company didn't want 'trade secrets' leaked. Out of all of the corrupt politicians out the Dick Cheney is absolutely the most diabolical and antithetical to the entire enterprise of American governance. Please read a book on that man and his company. but you're right, I shouldn't compare the two, Haliburton is far and away worse. Solyndra was bad, too, but not even close to the magnitude of decades of syphoning tax payer dollars through strategic placement of cronies in top positions of government.
Cutting through your diatribe, the reality is that Halliburton, as a long established company, provided both goods and services to the US - in many cases where there was no other company that could provide those goods and services - whereas Solyndra (owned by one of obama’s biggest donors, by the way, if we want to talk corruption) was handed half a billion dollars for literally nothing and went bankrupt less than a year later. And you’re comparing the two? That’s not even apples and oranges, that’s apples and toaster ovens.
Tax cuts equals inflation from deficit spending. Trump screwed America over.
Totally. That why you saw that raging inflation after those tax cuts in 2017 in 2018, 2019, and 2020 that averaged less than 2% and never eclipsed 3% in any single month, right? And only hit 9% in 2022 after Biden went on a $3T+ money printing spree throughout 2021? Please go to bed…the grown ups are trying to have a discussion.
I started betting on an inflationary economy after the TCJA and won. Inflation takes time to bake itself into the economy. The main difference between Trump's money printing spree and Biden's is that Biden spent money on infrastructure, and spending on infrastructure will always boost the economy. Trump spent money on giving billionaires a free gift in terms of tax cuts but had to borrow the money to do it. Trump also just buckshoted COVID relief to anybody and everybody in the most careless fashion we have ever seen. While I agree that the US debt is at a terrifying level right now, Trump is who created the bulk of it. At least Biden spent the money on growing the economy. Trump spent it on making billionaires happy.
Buttigieg looked great on CBS this morning explaining how the $7.5 BILLION investment into EV stations in 2021 has now managed to produce SEVEN new stations across the US. SEVEN. In three years. $7.5 BILLION. That’s amazing work!
Yeah. And to reach 500,000 charging stations by 2030 is a joke! Where’s the rest of the $7.5 billion since they only installed 7 so far? Probably in his pocket along with his other politicians friends. lol I’ll keep my gas car and not have to wait and take that much longer to get to my destination due to charging multiple times.
LOL at your take that it went to “infrastructure”. Like most massive spending bills enacted when coming in as a new president, it was chock full of pork laden spending rewarding those who helped get him elected. While the Covid spending was stupid and rife with fraud - like 100% of every govt program - at least it was broad based and driven by the govt forcing people to give up their livelihoods in the face of a global pandemic (also f-ing stupid but that’s a story for another day). Biden’s trillions in spending was crony capitalism and giveaways to his friends.
If by rewarding those who got him elected you mean the American people then you are correct. The bill was chock full of tax credits aimed at everyday Americans.
Wow you really are clueless. Policies take time to take effect it doesn’t just happen overnight.
You should look up the Dunning Kruger effect as you are exhibit A.
Another thing you are clueless about. Though I'll give you points for projection.
Good one!
Wow, someone doesn’t like Trump
I tend not to like criminal traitors.
…but you’ll be voting for China Joe?
The ignorance of your statement just shows that you have been brainwashed by right wing propaganda.
The Trump tax cuts were $2T (over 10 years) and were enacted in 2017. The Covid stimulus was $5T (all at once) and was done in 2020-2021. Which one do you think caused the recent inflation? Even morons can answer this question correctly.
One of those was a choice to enrich the few at everyone else's expense. The other staved off massive human and economic collapse. Your priorities are twisted.
Enrich? You mean the less from. And revenues increased after the tax cuts. Revenue is a trillion dollars higher since the year the cuts went into effect.
Both. Anyone still supporting Trump is a moron. The tax cuts were only part of the damage he caused.
The tax cuts added very little to the deficit at $200B a year. The stimulus that Trump passed (PPP and CARES) was $3T which was 15 times bigger and had a much bigger effect on inflation than the tax cuts. Numbers matter.
What about his mismanagement of the pandemic and his OPEC deal that caused even more damage.
You original post was about the tax cuts. If you want to talk about those issues, make another post. Bush passed tax cuts (bad) but Obama reversed them. Trump passed tax cuts (bad) but why didn't Biden reverse them? If he did, the deficit and inflation might not have been so bad.
Trump added 8.4 Trillion dollars to the debt. Without those tax cuts we would have had more money to deal with the pandemic and less debt. It's just another way that he screwed average Americans. Trump's tax cuts have actually cost about 1.7 trillion so far. Biden is planning on raising taxes on the wealthy in 2025.
You really can't do math huh? The tax cuts were $200B of that $8400B (2.3%). The tax cuts have not cost $1.7T so far as that number was over 10 years. Most of the debt under Trump came from Covid stimulus. Biden did no better and he will leave with $8T added to the debt. He had four years to raise taxes and didn't do it. If he wins, he might not have the Senate or the House in 2025 so he won't be able to raise taxes. "Biden left out that the debt under his watch is on pace to exceed Trump’s one-term debt accumulation by the end of his current term, Jan. 20, 2025. During his first three years, Biden already accumulated $6.32 trillion in debt. For his final year, the nonpartisan [Congressional Budget Office](https://www.cbo.gov/publication/59946) has projected a deficit of $1.582 trillion. Add those two figures together and you get $7.902 trillion as Biden’s four-year total." [https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2024/mar/12/joe-biden/fact-checking-joe-biden-on-debt-accumulated-under/](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2024/mar/12/joe-biden/fact-checking-joe-biden-on-debt-accumulated-under/) As I said, numbers matter and both presidents are among the worst ever in terms of debt and inflation.
The cost of those tax cuts is actually at 1.7 Trillion as of June 2023 and are expected to reach 2.3 million by the end of the year and they contribute to Biden's deficit along with the interest that needs to be paid. This happens every time we elect a Republican President. They blow up the economy and then the Democrat stuck fixing the problem gets blamed for not fixing it fast enough.
You're just making up numbers. Please post a source to that $1.7T number. Every study shows that amount over 10 years.
Causes matter.
Praying to Jesus you make it through the next 4 years. 
Jesus won't help you with all the damage Trump will cause if he is elected again.
Hehe. Fortify your Q button.
Enjoy sleeping under a bridge. Any room?
Are you a bot or mentally handicapped?
Trump tax cut negative impact would have totaled $1.25T over 10 years if revenue that was promised didn't show up, according to CBO. Revenue vastly exceeded expectations. There was no negative tax impact for the tax cuts. I thought the democrats added $6T? Either way, your point is valid. Morons can answer that question, but democrats aren't morons. They're useful idiots.
“Useful idiots” is certainly the right description of today’s Democrats. I’ve used the same term myself.
In reality today's Republican voters are the dumbest voters in American history. They have been brainwashed by right wing propaganda into voting for a criminal conman traitor. Talk about useful idiots.
…yet somehow, Biden is still managing to lose independents and some democrats to him. Stop saying “republicans” that ship sailed bye bye long ago. You leftists on crazy island have nobody to blame but yourselves for this. Enjoy the show.
Put on your big shoes and red nose a go back to work.
I want what you are smoking, the debt during Bush, Obama and Trump was driven by 2 wars we could ill afford. Biden's is driven by the pandemic lock down, which was brought about by democrat governors in an effort to get voting laws changed and thereby win 2020.
Right wing propaganda has created a nation of idiots. Anyone that keeps repeating the election lie is a complete moron and should not be taken seriously.
Big DT gonna get it in this August. Sorry 😞
I guess we will have to get used to saying Heil Shitler.
Eh. Nah
>Now that we are suffering through the effects of those tax cuts What suffering?
All that inflation everyone is whining about.
Democrats pretend care about the defecit when opposing republican policy yet support trillions in defecit spending when it favors them. This video is nonsense and pure political trash.
The deficit increased during EVERY Republican presidency and decreased during every Democratic presidency. Feel free to fact-check that.
All that says to me is that democrats want to tax more. Both parties spend like there’s no tomorrow because debt doesn’t matter when it’s borrowed in the currency you print.
I guess you don't care to learn history then. Can't make a horse drink.
We’re not known for being stupid cuz we’re so smart Lmfao
Listen carefully. Schumer seems to be ok with boosting the wealthy as long as there’s a little trickle down for the average worker. How gracious, Chuck. Fuck these neoliberal shitheads.
Schumer is literally the worst. So soft and losery, we might as well not have ever had a majority, such a useless prick.
How did you get that from what he said?
Trickle down doesn’t exist. Quit trying to hose the American people Republican Russian bot
Our representatives are wolves or wolves in sheep clothing..
That’s always been the plan. Read about “starve the beast”. The republican fiscal responsibility act has always been a lie. And sadly I didn’t learn it until the second W. Election.
Is anything they say and do not a lie?
Interest on the debt, brought to you by democrats is more then the military budget. The pea isn't under the shell that you think it is.
The democrats invented interest? The debt is the result of decades of republicans jacking up the deficit every time they’re in power. Deliberately. It’s not that hard to confirm.
Is everyone pretending like Covid spending wasn’t supported by pretty much everyone is office? Oh snap, consequences of our actions. Surprised pikachu
Trump sent out two checks, Biden one. That ended three years ago. A lot was spent on vaccines and heath infrastructure. But if you think the deficit wasn’t a problem before that, then I’ve got a shocked pikachu face I’ll sell you.
Never said it wasn’t a problem prior. I think any deficit is a problem, let alone one we can’t pay the interest on.
Plus the PPP "loans"
Biden is still sending out check…called “Student loan forgiveness”
And while I disagree with it, it’s not enough to stimulate anything or contribute to inflation. It’s a hundreds billion averaged over the life of a typical student loan which is decades.
Ehhh…I agree it’s mostly window dressing to win him back some votes. But it’s still printing money and still fucking with the debt and credit markets
A hundred billion over twenty or thirty years is a rounding error. Yeah, it’s window dressing and won’t make any difference without finance reform but its effect on the deficit is all but unmeasurable.
Why are we still spending like there's a crisis?
Ironically covid helicopter money impacted inflation very little because it boosted the velocity of money. Now the $9 trillion the fed borrowed to bail out Wallstreet totally boosted inflation.
COVID spending, yes. We had to do something to help people. The execution was Republican. They had the majority. Recall how it was pushed out with minimal oversight and then on top of that the Trump admin scaled back oversight and enforcement even more.
Pelosi wrote all those Covid spending bills.
After Biden took office when most of it was passed already under Trump? Trump passed the PPP.
No, under Trump, PPP and CARES were written and passed by Pelosi. She wanted even more than $3T. [https://time.com/5918603/nancy-pelosi-coronavirus-relief-deal/](https://time.com/5918603/nancy-pelosi-coronavirus-relief-deal/) [https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/12/house-democrats-pelosi-new-3-trillion-coronavirus-relief-plan-251407](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/12/house-democrats-pelosi-new-3-trillion-coronavirus-relief-plan-251407)
It passed under Trump, they passed a separate extension/revision of the program in December 2020 as your articles say. The CARES Act was signed in to law by Trump as a $2.2 trillion dollar bill and signedc by Trump in March. It created the PPP program.
All spending originates in the House. Pelosi wrote all those bills and wanted more. Senate under McConnell tried to make it smaller. Trump would have signed anything that passed Congress.
Of course they’ll cost a lot now because the federal budget was raised commensurate with the amount of tax cuts the moment Trump left office. The additional spending afterwards and the student loan forgiveness has fucked all of it.
You can't say only the rich benefitted. My family benefitted from the cuts. We don't make anywhere near the $400,000 threshold the administration uses.
And somehow Congress can't stop spending that amount and worse. At least one helps most Americans and the other... only helps themselves?
Trump would be so inflationary. Tax cuts tariffs on and on
You can't just claim that an already-existing tax cut would suddenly become 20 times more expensive next year, and just cite "the CBO". That's like citing "the library". Try giving a real source.
The CBOs entire job is to calculate expected financial impacts of proposed legislation. They are absolutely a legitimate source. Don’t politicize the CBO, they do the same boring g job regardless of D or R president. Also the costs are always projected to a 10 year total. It’s absolutely stupid politicians, news companies, think tanks, etc never mention that except sometimes in the article. So it’s 460 billion per year and obviously that’s compared to letting them naturally expire.
This sub has just become another outlet for /politics at this point, which is nothing but pro Biden and anti Trump. I’m out.
Good riddance.
Found the bot lmao. 👋🏻
I would argue this sub tends to have more conservative, right wing stuff than pro Biden stuff.
Wasn't the senate controlled by Democrats when those passed?
Oh..you mean that one "democrat" senator from West Virginia that gave the senate 51 votes to pass the tax cuts? You mean that senate? LMAO.
I wonder what he was promised by the repubs. Just goes to show all the fighting that happens in front of the cameras goes right out the door when they're making deals under the table just for the benefit of everyone at Capital Hill.
Ah, figures it would be some crap like that.
And how many trillions does the USA send over seas?
Aren’t we paying 1 trillion in interest every 100 days? Who the fuck did that Chuck? Can’t be the lifelong politicians like you?!?!
I really wish the Biden tax plan was implemented, we’d all be better off.
All I know is I can file with just the standard deduction and I get money back now, before I had to pay money. Retried and on a fixed income.
Liar Liar Pants on Fire. This is all political posturing because he wants to raise taxes because that is what Democrats do, The truth is that after the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act Revenue to the government from individual Income Taxes INCREASED and through 2023 it had increased 40%. Corporate tax revenue since the tax cuts has doubled. Schumer knows better. He is just gaslighting the American public because most people aren't inclined to research the information for themselves and he knows he can get away with this blatant lie. The reason the deficit increased after the Tax Cuts was because Democrats increased spending more than revenue increased. It is simple math.
[Horse shit](https://imgur.com/PsP8XZE)
Its not a ~~tax~~ theft problem, its a spending problem. If the government stole more money it will just find even more destructive things to spend it on and expand. Everything the government does is destructive and everyone that is within or works for the government produce nothing of value. This is like a serial rapist saying because there is a lesser quantity of victims to rape, this is costing the rapist x victims per year.
Why would democrats care? These last $6T are on them.
This same logic would be me telling my boss it's his fault I'm going more into debt because I refuse to give up my bmw car loan and since he didn't give me a raise this is his fault!!
Buy gold.
Unfortunate to see the typical bullshit posted in this sub as well.
You heard it first, libs. Good luck. Lololol