This map is incorrect. Romania and the rest of the Balkans have plenty of surveillance cameras. There are old grandmas looking through their window everywhere!!
I just moved to România 6 months ago and everytime I tell a neighbor something new about myself and my family they tell me they "already know" because they talked to my other neighbors I've already told. It's hilarious.
It's both reassuring and unnerving.
Useless, when our house got robbed, two grannies saw the thief. They talked to the police, but they were sooooo stubborn.
Police officer got a picture of potential thief and they said "HE HAD A DIFFERENT JACKET. I CANT REMEMBER THE FACE, HE HAD DIFFERENT JACKET".......
Same in Germany actually. I don't know why we waste money on surveillance, when our Oma units provide security and regular police reports on the daily.
Same in the street i live on in sweden my family are like the youngest ones here and like when my brother parks his car he can see some hag looking at him shit crazy
Old neighbours are the best security surveillance ever. Back in New Zealand I flatted next to an old couple in a somewhat dodgy student neighbourhood and they caught someone lurking around our flat on two different occasions within a year. I hadn't even met them but somehow they recognised me and all 5 of my flatmates well enough to know that the guy lurking around our apartment wasn't one of us or one of our friends.
This map is really based on some wrong assumptions. Open street map doesnt distinguish between an actual surveillance camera and a traffic control system for example. Data laws are so strict that this is actually a thing not only in Germany to the best of my knowledge.
Well akshually it is allowed to touch your Privatsphäre under specific circumstances. However, it is not allowed to touch your Intimsphäre. That is a big no-no
Not it wouldn't. There has been a rise in doorbell cameras in the last years without anyone knowing the [laws](https://www.videosprechanlagen.info/Sind-Tuersprechanlagen-mit-Kamera-in-Deutschland-erlaubt#:~:text=In%20Deutschland%20sind%20T%C3%BCrsprechanlagen%20mit,Datenschutz%20der%20Personen%20zu%20sch%C3%BCtzen.) around those.
OpenStreetMap is usually not a very effective way to produce such data because OSM mapping habits, practices, "rules" and frequency vary area by area. Since surveillance cameras are small low-priority point objects, it really depends on the detail level of the editors - some choose to include pretty much every lamppost, trashbin and camera in every square meter of their editing zone, while others call it a day after making a line for a road and giving it a street name.
I, for one, am aware that Lithuania stands out in this map a lot because the Lithuanian OSM editor community is truly active and aims to include even small street infrastructure objects such as cameras. Some other countries don't have a habit of doing that.
Yeah, installing surveillance cameras in Denmark if they film any sort of public place is a big no no.
Even a stationary car parked in public with stuff like Sentry mode is illegal.
It's funny because when I was in Germany I kept jaywalking like in Portugal, if no car is coming them imma cross. A local girl said to me "you know, they are probably watching you doing that but they probably think you are retarded"
As much as I love Germans, they’re weirdly hung up on rules for rules sake. Where I’m from we think “is this rule sensible? No? Let’s not follow that one”, but for Germans it’s usually “that’s a rule and rules must be followed”.
Usually with Germans the logic is like this:
Is this Rule sensible? No? Let me write a letter to the person in charge of it, so that we can voice our disagreement and adress the issues with this rule in order to improve on it. In the meantime *ordnung muss sein*
I once got told by a German colleague that I should have my identification with me at all times. In over thirty trips to Germany I was never once confronted with “papers please”. Massive disappointment.
I have traveled all around western Europe in the past 10 years at least 5 times a year and I've never shown my papers anywhere but at a camping check-in. This was even as a 18 year old with a large fairly expensive station car. Unless you are involved in accidents or are highly suspicious (or not white maybe...) it's very unlikely you ever need to ID yourself.
Many years ago, a group of us did a motorbike trip through the Tyrol, with several crossings of the German-Austrian border. One of us was really keen to get his passport stamped everywhere, but was disappointed: We had to show them three times on the entire trip, once when leaving, and twice when re-entering the UK!
Maybe you just dont get why the rule is important so rather follow it then think you are all mighty. If you think they are useless then write to the authorities and ask for a change, just breaking laws can endanger you and everyone around you.
I mean sure if you have a dictatorship or stuff like these then you should check with your own morals, but crossing the street legaly is not fighting dictatorship...
A teacher I know had an interesting anecdote - he had taken his (Norwegian) class to England to meet a British class there. The teachers were telling their classes about the rules they were expected to follow - the British students were very polite and accepting of the rules. The Norwegian class were argumentative and rude. My friend the teacher was very embarrassed.
Then it turned out none of the British students followed any of the rules. They pretended to agree - they had no intention of following up on their agreement. The Norwegian students had argued and presented all their thoughts on why they thought the rules silly. But in the end they followed the rules, because the teacher had convinced them on why it was necessary to follow the rules.
That is a thing with Norwegian culture, we won’t follow rules we deem silly. But if you convince us they’re reasonable, we’ll follow them.
I’m not saying Norwegian culture is better than German (in fact, there’s a lot about Germany I prefer to Norway), but I do think in this case we’ve found a reasonable compromise between anarchy and blind obedience.
There's so many streets in my city where pressing the button to wait (aka following the rules) literally slows down traffic that most people don't bother with it in the morning and at night. There's many moments where you have 30+ second periods where no cars are in sight, but *legally* you're supposed to wait there for like 2 minutes, so you can make 50 cars (including buses) stop for 40 seconds just so you can walk for 5 seconds. Of course, the police knows this too - if you were caught crossing a red light, they probably wouldn't do anything about it
Trouble with that attitude is that plenty of people think that perfectly sensible rules are either *not* sensible, or realise that labelling them as Not Sensible is a useful approach for rules that they in fact find *inconvenient.*
For example many people's responses to Covid restrictions, hence the comment that the risk of spread of Covid is proportionate to two things, the density of the population, and the density of the population.
And also "Think of the average person you know, and then remember that half the population is dumber than that." All in all, I think I would rather take the German approach as described by tejanaqkilica below over trusting to the judgement of a sizeable proportion of people as to what constitutes "sensible."
\~In reality at 4am in Vegas as I stumbled from the Karaoke bar to the hotel, I was shouted at by American cops for walking across an empty road. "Hey buddy that's illegal over here"... ok mate, I'm half way across... I'll carry on.
Jaywalking in Germany is legal though, at least if you are so.ething like 25m away from the nearest pedestrian crossing. But if you jawalk at a crossing, then yeah people will think you are retarded.
Just looked up and there isn't a set distance, it is ruled on case by case. The distances talked about are more in the 20-50m range and not 100m. But prob. the more important part is circumstance (e.g. if the pedestrian light was red and you ran 30m to the left and crossed the road there, that is illegal, but if you live near a road and the nearest crossing are 50m to the left and to the right, crossing directly in front of your house is very likely legal).
But that is generally quite academic as well, as police needs to be there to ticket you in the first place, and they generally only do that when you run over a red pedestrian light or through heavy traffic (the later is illegal by itself).
My German anarchist friend warned me when I was jaywalking, I had a good laugh.
btw in NRW they don't care, but there are many of us auslanders here, so it maybe because of that. I came from Balkans and I was in shock how people cross 4 lanes like it's nothing, meanwhile I look left, right and I have to cross like 5 meters I'm paranoid.
You can cross a street (not the Autobahn) at any place as a pedestrian in Germany. There is no law against it. The only exception is when there is a crossing with a pedestrian light in proximity of your crossing point. However it isn't defined by law what is "in proximity". Some court of law said 5 meters, some 40 meters. It depends on the situation - "es kommt drauf an", as a lawyer would say.
An old man kicked me (and made me fall from my bike) when I did that in Munich.
You could see > 100 meters in each direction, all of them empty. In broad daylight. And that was only a 2 lanes street. So very safe jaywalking.
Are there even Jaywalking laws in most European countries? Thought that was mostly a US thing were you get fined for that. Pretty sure you're allowed to cross anywhere as a pedestrian on city streets or provincial roads. Only exception might be highways, but you'll have to try pretty hard to get to those as a pedestrian in the first place.
Zebra crossings aren't manditory, they're judt generally recommended for your own safety as traffic expects you to be there.
That's a bullshit map. What it does is show where cctv can be operated without much if any legal concerns at all and places where those cameras - inclunding private ones - are under a very specific and tight legal framework. It doesn't control for the significant differences by law
OpenStreetMaps adds data from all kind of sources, including official ones. So obviously there will be stark differences between countries where at least private cameras are largely unregulated and countries where they are very much not
Private cameras in Germany are strictly regulated. At least in where they are pointing and what they are filming. For most homeowners, it’s pretty difficult to put up a camera without violating some laws.
By your reasoning, Germany should be pretty empty on this map, but it’s one of the countries with the most cameras.
OpenStreetMaps is a community project. You need people who are interested in contributing for one reason or another.
Some countries may also have so many surveillance cameras that it’s seen as normal by the people and it would be a hassle to add them all to some online map.
All of this impacts the available data. You have some countries where those cameras are highly regulated and have to be entered into a database. There are other countries where basically anything goes.
London has areas where entire streets are constantly filmed by private cameras with no effective regulation what is done to this data. That would be flat out illegal, resulting in huge fines in Germany.
Just back off for a second and ask yourself: Is Moscow really far less surveilled than Berlin? Because that's what this map claims
I'm looking at where i live, in a small rural town, and we're marked yellow, but if i drive 20 minutes down the road to the next town where i work watching hundreds of security cameras, it's not even marked yellow on the map, and it's a bigger town too.
not just that. if you look at map of norway. the middle of the thick part in the south is very sparsely populated. (its just big mountains) but im pretty shure all the roads there are made safer from having security cams on all the tunnels and mountain passes. probably also speed cameras.
I would imagine this would be publicly accessible cameras yes. I don’t think we would get reliable data for pinhole cameras that even the general public uses
Yeah in Ireland it's showing more cameras in the least dense places. There's no way this is correct. In Ireland, There should at least be a yellow spot on Dublin and Cork if anywhere.
That said, I don't know where the cameras are, but the map is bullshit. It just couldn't be right.
I live in the middle of nowhere & yet there are quite a few people with street (dirt road) facing cameras.
(Recently there was an incident where someone installed a camera to figure out who is the cause of all the dog poop on their lawn & this led to some feces throwing, but our lawn is also poop free now)
[How does Berlin have more cameras than London?](https://www.statista.com/chart/19268/most-surveilled-cities-in-europe/) Apart from that, I barely see them, especially in the districts outside of the city center, so it seems a bit fishy.
The UK one is frequently miss attributed and the source usually gets heavily criticised
The vast majority in the UK are private CCTV placed by shops, houses etc. State funded CCTV is fairly rare (outside of traffic cameras)
This. It's also only legal to have them point at your own property, so if there are cameras, they are probably behind a fence where the people collecting the data shouldn't be able to see them. And also: how do you install cameras like that if you live in an apartment in a house with 50 other apartments?
exactly, I would first of all cluster it much more ("bigger dots") and second of all, I'm maybe a bit color blind but not THAT color blind and I cannot fucking tell any difference
black dots just blend into border lines as well, optically
That isn't a problem with cameras, that's a problem with the police. Nothing helps with crime when you have a police force who have effectively been on strike for 25 years, as we've had in the UK. If police in other countries are also choosing not to use the available tools and do their job, then there's a continent-wide problem with police that needs to be tackled.
4 days ago in Moscow oblast’ right across the road from police derp happened shooting. Cynologists that were at the time in the mall, after the shooting started, retreated. Police responded after an hour (the mall was across the police department). Federal Service of Security the day before the incident was looking the concert hall, which terrorists used to enter the mall.
Absolutely. My reaction was that Norway seems to have a lot of cameras, knowing a little about the country but it doesn't look like that in the picture.
The data source is OpenStreetMap. I am a contributor to OpenStreetMap myself and have realised that many surveillance cameras in my country (Austria) are not mapped.
Apparently there's not a single "surveillance camera" in or around for hundreds of km of the 2nd biggest city in Romania, Iași.
Totally accurate map. 10 out of 10
You're not supposed to notice surveilance devices.
This is quite interesting [From Mountain of CCTV Footage, Pay Dirt: 2 Russians Are Named in Spy Poisoning How Surveillance Cameras Tracked Two Russian Hit Men]( https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/world/europe/salisbury-novichok-poisoning.html)
British investigators used security footage and flight records to track two Russian men who now stand accused of attempted murder in the March attack featuring the nerve agent Novichok.
Britain is one of the most heavily surveilled nations on earth, with an estimated one surveillance camera per 11 citizens. It has cutting-edge technology for visually identifying criminals, and software so sensitive it can scan an airport for a tattoo or a pinkie ring. And then there is that team of genetically gifted humans known as “super-recognizers.”
On Wednesday, the authorities announced that the effort had paid off: Two Russian intelligence officers had been charged with attempted murder, the first criminal charges in a case that has driven a deep wedge between Russia and the West.
Investigators released a cache of evidence, including security camera images that captured the progress of the two men from an Aeroflot flight to the scene of the crime, and from there back to Moscow. They also released photographs of the delicate perfume bottle that was used to carry a weapons-grade nerve agent, known as Novichok, to the quiet English city of Salisbury where the attack took place.
[More about the British Security Services’ several-hundred-strong team of ‘super-recognisers’.]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_recogniser)
Most of them don't look like traditional surveillance cameras any more - they're more like smoke detectors, simple domes in ceilings and on walls. If you're in a larger city, chances are even your apartment complex has cameras right outside entrances.
Surveillance cameras are a two-way street which means that due to poor cybersecurity measures, they also allow for hackers, especially adversaries, to monitor them too. So when Republicans in Congress hold up funding for Ukraine, they're also looking through those cameras too.
I think yellow means up to 88.5 per 20 square km, but one yellow dot covers much more area.
Let’s say it’s like 400km2 (hard to tell), then one yellow dot means anything from 20 to 1760 cameras.
this one is a bit suspicious (punnnnz). like wth are the central alps completely covered in yellow?
also, does this map include all the traffic surveillance cams along motorways, train tracks...? would explain the coverage of germany and the netherlands.
>like wth are the central alps completely covered in yellow?
My best guess: Live cameras at all the ski areas for weather conditions.
This is yet another reason why this map is so misleading: it doesn't differentiate at all between what is actually observed
The stats for London are heavily skewed and criticised
Frequently the claim of CCTV capital of the world includes figures like traffic cameras and private ones (e.g. shops, homes, offices etc)
Moscow is incorrect too. There are way more cameras. Basically every metro station has cameras at every gate. So you can pay yor fare with facial recognition. There are talks that appartment building intercoms are wired into central surveillance system too. That besides regular traffic/security cameras.
LOL what? I had the feeling that there are many more cameras in Poland than in Germany. At least they were often visible from the streets, which is against data protection here.
Or the most active camera mappers. In my city, that only had a few cameras registered, I mapped more than a hundred cameras on just a few walks in the center.
I doubt that this map is particularly reliable, but Sweden does have pretty strict integrity laws creating quite a high bar for anyone wanting to put up CCTV, be it private companies or public authorities.
To those who do not know, security cameras aren't allowed to film public property in Germany, without permit, which isn't that easy to get!
Those are mostly private security cameras, filming private property. If they film something else you can get fined.
That yellow dot in south central Iceland is out of the middle nowhere. There’s no towns there. It looks to be approximately the location of the Jökulsárlon glacier lagoon / Diamond Beach
I'm not sure this is accurate... I'm Swiss and I don't see any cctv cameras besides in front of gouvernement buildings/embassys.
Also according to this map our Alps are basically covered in cameras? Lol wtf
In any density map, it is always worth considering population density. I can't speak for other countries, but the grey parts of the Netherlands are also the most empty parts of our country, and the 2 darker dots on the coasts are definitely Amsterdam and Rotterdam+Den Haag.
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Interesting (assuming the dataset is suitably comprehensive) but I think it would be much *more* interesting to see a map of the *ratio* of camera density to population density. As it is, certainly in Western Europe, this seems to be pretty much a map of population density.
This map is incorrect. Romania and the rest of the Balkans have plenty of surveillance cameras. There are old grandmas looking through their window everywhere!!
Babushka cameras … top of the range 👌
Babushcams
This sounds like something very different...
"... in your neighborhood."
Who you gonna call?
Yes....but why not combine useful with comfortable stuff?
64k!
Grandma be looking through the window and a week later tells you every detail about all the 50 people living in the complex
You just need to give her a telephone and you get a real time OSINT analysis of the area.
That's HUMINT because you actually have a spy on the ground sending data.
You're right.
What is OSINT?
Open Source Inteligence, also know as googling (or oggling in case of Baba-grade sources)
With just a bit of little tiny lies.
I just moved to România 6 months ago and everytime I tell a neighbor something new about myself and my family they tell me they "already know" because they talked to my other neighbors I've already told. It's hilarious. It's both reassuring and unnerving.
Yeah, we already know they know.
But do we already know that they know that we know they know?
yes, I already knew that
I told them (heard from my Grandma)
Openstreetmap contributor here. The data used is made by volunteers and if nobody mapped the cameras there, they will not appear on the map
Same in Portugal😉
Google eastern Europe
Poland too!
jako Polak z łódzkiego potwierdzam
Useless, when our house got robbed, two grannies saw the thief. They talked to the police, but they were sooooo stubborn. Police officer got a picture of potential thief and they said "HE HAD A DIFFERENT JACKET. I CANT REMEMBER THE FACE, HE HAD DIFFERENT JACKET".......
What about the benches? I thought they also sit at the benches .
Same in Germany actually. I don't know why we waste money on surveillance, when our Oma units provide security and regular police reports on the daily.
Nothing compared to Portugal!
Haha you have a point.
Poland too.
They somehow included those “cameras” in Lithuania
Same in the street i live on in sweden my family are like the youngest ones here and like when my brother parks his car he can see some hag looking at him shit crazy
If that counts Germany should be entirely yellow
Old neighbours are the best security surveillance ever. Back in New Zealand I flatted next to an old couple in a somewhat dodgy student neighbourhood and they caught someone lurking around our flat on two different occasions within a year. I hadn't even met them but somehow they recognised me and all 5 of my flatmates well enough to know that the guy lurking around our apartment wasn't one of us or one of our friends.
This map is really based on some wrong assumptions. Open street map doesnt distinguish between an actual surveillance camera and a traffic control system for example. Data laws are so strict that this is actually a thing not only in Germany to the best of my knowledge.
Bro if there was so many cameras in Germany it would cause a revolution. No one is touching my Privatssphäre!!!!
Well akshually it is allowed to touch your Privatsphäre under specific circumstances. However, it is not allowed to touch your Intimsphäre. That is a big no-no
Not it wouldn't. There has been a rise in doorbell cameras in the last years without anyone knowing the [laws](https://www.videosprechanlagen.info/Sind-Tuersprechanlagen-mit-Kamera-in-Deutschland-erlaubt#:~:text=In%20Deutschland%20sind%20T%C3%BCrsprechanlagen%20mit,Datenschutz%20der%20Personen%20zu%20sch%C3%BCtzen.) around those.
OpenStreetMap is usually not a very effective way to produce such data because OSM mapping habits, practices, "rules" and frequency vary area by area. Since surveillance cameras are small low-priority point objects, it really depends on the detail level of the editors - some choose to include pretty much every lamppost, trashbin and camera in every square meter of their editing zone, while others call it a day after making a line for a road and giving it a street name. I, for one, am aware that Lithuania stands out in this map a lot because the Lithuanian OSM editor community is truly active and aims to include even small street infrastructure objects such as cameras. Some other countries don't have a habit of doing that.
There’s even data (and same density) for the Alps and no substantial change when looking at cities like Milano.
Yeah, installing surveillance cameras in Denmark if they film any sort of public place is a big no no. Even a stationary car parked in public with stuff like Sentry mode is illegal.
[удалено]
It's funny because when I was in Germany I kept jaywalking like in Portugal, if no car is coming them imma cross. A local girl said to me "you know, they are probably watching you doing that but they probably think you are retarded"
in reality, police dont give a shit if you are not endangering anyone, they have better things to do
Ofc they don't care about tourists but she made it look like it's a cultural thing
As much as I love Germans, they’re weirdly hung up on rules for rules sake. Where I’m from we think “is this rule sensible? No? Let’s not follow that one”, but for Germans it’s usually “that’s a rule and rules must be followed”.
Usually with Germans the logic is like this: Is this Rule sensible? No? Let me write a letter to the person in charge of it, so that we can voice our disagreement and adress the issues with this rule in order to improve on it. In the meantime *ordnung muss sein*
*send by fax
I once got told by a German colleague that I should have my identification with me at all times. In over thirty trips to Germany I was never once confronted with “papers please”. Massive disappointment.
carrying ID is like carrying rubber, its not because you will need it, its because it sucks if you dont have it when you need it
I have traveled all around western Europe in the past 10 years at least 5 times a year and I've never shown my papers anywhere but at a camping check-in. This was even as a 18 year old with a large fairly expensive station car. Unless you are involved in accidents or are highly suspicious (or not white maybe...) it's very unlikely you ever need to ID yourself.
Many years ago, a group of us did a motorbike trip through the Tyrol, with several crossings of the German-Austrian border. One of us was really keen to get his passport stamped everywhere, but was disappointed: We had to show them three times on the entire trip, once when leaving, and twice when re-entering the UK!
It's a cultural thing. What do you expect from the people that said "I was just following orders."
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3EBs7sCOzo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3EBs7sCOzo)
Maybe you just dont get why the rule is important so rather follow it then think you are all mighty. If you think they are useless then write to the authorities and ask for a change, just breaking laws can endanger you and everyone around you. I mean sure if you have a dictatorship or stuff like these then you should check with your own morals, but crossing the street legaly is not fighting dictatorship...
A teacher I know had an interesting anecdote - he had taken his (Norwegian) class to England to meet a British class there. The teachers were telling their classes about the rules they were expected to follow - the British students were very polite and accepting of the rules. The Norwegian class were argumentative and rude. My friend the teacher was very embarrassed. Then it turned out none of the British students followed any of the rules. They pretended to agree - they had no intention of following up on their agreement. The Norwegian students had argued and presented all their thoughts on why they thought the rules silly. But in the end they followed the rules, because the teacher had convinced them on why it was necessary to follow the rules. That is a thing with Norwegian culture, we won’t follow rules we deem silly. But if you convince us they’re reasonable, we’ll follow them. I’m not saying Norwegian culture is better than German (in fact, there’s a lot about Germany I prefer to Norway), but I do think in this case we’ve found a reasonable compromise between anarchy and blind obedience.
If you think Germans are "blind obediend" then you dont really know about German culture that much. Complaining is national sport here.
There's so many streets in my city where pressing the button to wait (aka following the rules) literally slows down traffic that most people don't bother with it in the morning and at night. There's many moments where you have 30+ second periods where no cars are in sight, but *legally* you're supposed to wait there for like 2 minutes, so you can make 50 cars (including buses) stop for 40 seconds just so you can walk for 5 seconds. Of course, the police knows this too - if you were caught crossing a red light, they probably wouldn't do anything about it
It’s not their fault, they’re just following orders.
Trouble with that attitude is that plenty of people think that perfectly sensible rules are either *not* sensible, or realise that labelling them as Not Sensible is a useful approach for rules that they in fact find *inconvenient.* For example many people's responses to Covid restrictions, hence the comment that the risk of spread of Covid is proportionate to two things, the density of the population, and the density of the population. And also "Think of the average person you know, and then remember that half the population is dumber than that." All in all, I think I would rather take the German approach as described by tejanaqkilica below over trusting to the judgement of a sizeable proportion of people as to what constitutes "sensible."
Tell that to my €25 fine (that I still haven't paid cuz fuck them)
\~In reality at 4am in Vegas as I stumbled from the Karaoke bar to the hotel, I was shouted at by American cops for walking across an empty road. "Hey buddy that's illegal over here"... ok mate, I'm half way across... I'll carry on.
I got a 75€ fine once for doing it in my small town on a quiet road on a Sunday.
Jaywalking in Germany is legal though, at least if you are so.ething like 25m away from the nearest pedestrian crossing. But if you jawalk at a crossing, then yeah people will think you are retarded.
Only 25 metres? It's 100 metres here in Denmark
Just looked up and there isn't a set distance, it is ruled on case by case. The distances talked about are more in the 20-50m range and not 100m. But prob. the more important part is circumstance (e.g. if the pedestrian light was red and you ran 30m to the left and crossed the road there, that is illegal, but if you live near a road and the nearest crossing are 50m to the left and to the right, crossing directly in front of your house is very likely legal). But that is generally quite academic as well, as police needs to be there to ticket you in the first place, and they generally only do that when you run over a red pedestrian light or through heavy traffic (the later is illegal by itself).
Jaywalking isn't illegal. It's not even a word here. In neither of Europes countries, I guess.
My German anarchist friend warned me when I was jaywalking, I had a good laugh. btw in NRW they don't care, but there are many of us auslanders here, so it maybe because of that. I came from Balkans and I was in shock how people cross 4 lanes like it's nothing, meanwhile I look left, right and I have to cross like 5 meters I'm paranoid.
Retarded O CRL!!
I highly doubt anyone ever said that to you.
What do you mean by jaywalking? crossing at a red light?
Crossing the street outside the pedestrians path
You can cross a street (not the Autobahn) at any place as a pedestrian in Germany. There is no law against it. The only exception is when there is a crossing with a pedestrian light in proximity of your crossing point. However it isn't defined by law what is "in proximity". Some court of law said 5 meters, some 40 meters. It depends on the situation - "es kommt drauf an", as a lawyer would say.
An old man kicked me (and made me fall from my bike) when I did that in Munich. You could see > 100 meters in each direction, all of them empty. In broad daylight. And that was only a 2 lanes street. So very safe jaywalking.
Are there even Jaywalking laws in most European countries? Thought that was mostly a US thing were you get fined for that. Pretty sure you're allowed to cross anywhere as a pedestrian on city streets or provincial roads. Only exception might be highways, but you'll have to try pretty hard to get to those as a pedestrian in the first place. Zebra crossings aren't manditory, they're judt generally recommended for your own safety as traffic expects you to be there.
I jaywalked right in front of cops in Sweden to prove to my gf it's legal here. If I impede traffic it's illegal, but not otherwise.
She probably meant the Gradmas
That's a bullshit map. What it does is show where cctv can be operated without much if any legal concerns at all and places where those cameras - inclunding private ones - are under a very specific and tight legal framework. It doesn't control for the significant differences by law
This map mainly shows densely populated areas and where people are actively adding surveillance cameras to OpenStreetMaps.
OpenStreetMaps adds data from all kind of sources, including official ones. So obviously there will be stark differences between countries where at least private cameras are largely unregulated and countries where they are very much not
Private cameras in Germany are strictly regulated. At least in where they are pointing and what they are filming. For most homeowners, it’s pretty difficult to put up a camera without violating some laws. By your reasoning, Germany should be pretty empty on this map, but it’s one of the countries with the most cameras. OpenStreetMaps is a community project. You need people who are interested in contributing for one reason or another. Some countries may also have so many surveillance cameras that it’s seen as normal by the people and it would be a hassle to add them all to some online map.
No he is saying that if they are regulated it's more likely they are listed somewhere and can be added to the map.
All of this impacts the available data. You have some countries where those cameras are highly regulated and have to be entered into a database. There are other countries where basically anything goes. London has areas where entire streets are constantly filmed by private cameras with no effective regulation what is done to this data. That would be flat out illegal, resulting in huge fines in Germany. Just back off for a second and ask yourself: Is Moscow really far less surveilled than Berlin? Because that's what this map claims
That is definitely not the case in Ireland. It's a good bit different to a population density map
Leitrim County Council installing CCTV to beat the band.
I'm looking at where i live, in a small rural town, and we're marked yellow, but if i drive 20 minutes down the road to the next town where i work watching hundreds of security cameras, it's not even marked yellow on the map, and it's a bigger town too.
not just that. if you look at map of norway. the middle of the thick part in the south is very sparsely populated. (its just big mountains) but im pretty shure all the roads there are made safer from having security cams on all the tunnels and mountain passes. probably also speed cameras.
It just shows where the cameras are ?
It doesn't. It shows where *some* camera are.
I would imagine this would be publicly accessible cameras yes. I don’t think we would get reliable data for pinhole cameras that even the general public uses
Yeah in Ireland it's showing more cameras in the least dense places. There's no way this is correct. In Ireland, There should at least be a yellow spot on Dublin and Cork if anywhere. That said, I don't know where the cameras are, but the map is bullshit. It just couldn't be right.
i cant imagine it to be that dense in our least populated areas
I live in the middle of nowhere & yet there are quite a few people with street (dirt road) facing cameras. (Recently there was an incident where someone installed a camera to figure out who is the cause of all the dog poop on their lawn & this led to some feces throwing, but our lawn is also poop free now)
[How does Berlin have more cameras than London?](https://www.statista.com/chart/19268/most-surveilled-cities-in-europe/) Apart from that, I barely see them, especially in the districts outside of the city center, so it seems a bit fishy.
The UK one is frequently miss attributed and the source usually gets heavily criticised The vast majority in the UK are private CCTV placed by shops, houses etc. State funded CCTV is fairly rare (outside of traffic cameras)
It's the norm for this sub to post wrong and useless maps.
This. It's also only legal to have them point at your own property, so if there are cameras, they are probably behind a fence where the people collecting the data shouldn't be able to see them. And also: how do you install cameras like that if you live in an apartment in a house with 50 other apartments?
relevant XKCD: [heatmap.png (500×542) (xkcd.com)](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/heatmap.png)
Densely populated Norway vs. basically empty Sweden.
that's probably the worst data visualization on a map I've ever seen
Everything between 1 and 88 has the same yellow color. So if you have one traffic camera every ten kilometers your area becomes yellow.
exactly, I would first of all cluster it much more ("bigger dots") and second of all, I'm maybe a bit color blind but not THAT color blind and I cannot fucking tell any difference black dots just blend into border lines as well, optically
And it doesn't help with crime
That isn't a problem with cameras, that's a problem with the police. Nothing helps with crime when you have a police force who have effectively been on strike for 25 years, as we've had in the UK. If police in other countries are also choosing not to use the available tools and do their job, then there's a continent-wide problem with police that needs to be tackled.
4 days ago in Moscow oblast’ right across the road from police derp happened shooting. Cynologists that were at the time in the mall, after the shooting started, retreated. Police responded after an hour (the mall was across the police department). Federal Service of Security the day before the incident was looking the concert hall, which terrorists used to enter the mall.
The point being if the cameras aren’t helping, spot abusing privacy to surveil the population at large.
Pretty much map of population density and wealth distribution Some major exceptions are Lithuania or Hungary
/r/peopleliveincities
Absolutely. My reaction was that Norway seems to have a lot of cameras, knowing a little about the country but it doesn't look like that in the picture.
Doesn't it? Compared to Sweden they seem to have a lot more cameras.
They absolutely do. Add that they're half as many people.They must have more cameras per capita than Spain.
That seems right, also I think that this platform include some cameras that are private cameras like those in shops.
Why so many cameras in Western Europe, that’s scary.
Speed cameras where first made in the Netherlands, also many are to control traffic flow and safety.
Ah, yes. 1 camera vs 88,5 and it's basically the same color. Who TF makes these useless maps?
The data source is OpenStreetMap. I am a contributor to OpenStreetMap myself and have realised that many surveillance cameras in my country (Austria) are not mapped.
borders are made of cameras???
It's crazy how many cameras there are along the borders!
Each country is surrounded with impenetrable wall of cameras.
Apparently there's not a single "surveillance camera" in or around for hundreds of km of the 2nd biggest city in Romania, Iași. Totally accurate map. 10 out of 10
Macar avem fakes.
London should be dark, at least from what I’ve noticed there.
You're not supposed to notice surveilance devices. This is quite interesting [From Mountain of CCTV Footage, Pay Dirt: 2 Russians Are Named in Spy Poisoning How Surveillance Cameras Tracked Two Russian Hit Men]( https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/05/world/europe/salisbury-novichok-poisoning.html) British investigators used security footage and flight records to track two Russian men who now stand accused of attempted murder in the March attack featuring the nerve agent Novichok. Britain is one of the most heavily surveilled nations on earth, with an estimated one surveillance camera per 11 citizens. It has cutting-edge technology for visually identifying criminals, and software so sensitive it can scan an airport for a tattoo or a pinkie ring. And then there is that team of genetically gifted humans known as “super-recognizers.” On Wednesday, the authorities announced that the effort had paid off: Two Russian intelligence officers had been charged with attempted murder, the first criminal charges in a case that has driven a deep wedge between Russia and the West. Investigators released a cache of evidence, including security camera images that captured the progress of the two men from an Aeroflot flight to the scene of the crime, and from there back to Moscow. They also released photographs of the delicate perfume bottle that was used to carry a weapons-grade nerve agent, known as Novichok, to the quiet English city of Salisbury where the attack took place. [More about the British Security Services’ several-hundred-strong team of ‘super-recognisers’.]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_recogniser)
Tbh, I'm surprised that the whole UK (not only england) isn't even more yellow.
I can't remember when Ive last seen a CCTV camera anywhere
Most of them don't look like traditional surveillance cameras any more - they're more like smoke detectors, simple domes in ceilings and on walls. If you're in a larger city, chances are even your apartment complex has cameras right outside entrances.
Surveillance cameras are a two-way street which means that due to poor cybersecurity measures, they also allow for hackers, especially adversaries, to monitor them too. So when Republicans in Congress hold up funding for Ukraine, they're also looking through those cameras too.
How come Sweden has almost none?
And it's mainly the big cities. What a shocker...
Correct it by population density.
I know for a fact that only cities in the Netherlands have surveillance cameras. Not the small towns
Do they count cameras on highways as surveillance as well?
Why wouldn't they? Cameras with Automatic Number Plate Recognition are getting very common. At least in some parts.
Did you confuse the grandmothers standing by the window and staring at anyone on the street in Lithuania with surveillance cameras?
[удалено]
I think yellow means up to 88.5 per 20 square km, but one yellow dot covers much more area. Let’s say it’s like 400km2 (hard to tell), then one yellow dot means anything from 20 to 1760 cameras.
Germany: Google Street View bad, but 3 cameras on every corner OK.
this one is a bit suspicious (punnnnz). like wth are the central alps completely covered in yellow? also, does this map include all the traffic surveillance cams along motorways, train tracks...? would explain the coverage of germany and the netherlands.
>like wth are the central alps completely covered in yellow? My best guess: Live cameras at all the ski areas for weather conditions. This is yet another reason why this map is so misleading: it doesn't differentiate at all between what is actually observed
I'm suprised about Romania. Here in rural Hungary it's a must to have. If you know you know.
There is NO WAY that London only has 1-88 cameras per 20km2 one street is likely to have several hundred.
The stats for London are heavily skewed and criticised Frequently the claim of CCTV capital of the world includes figures like traffic cameras and private ones (e.g. shops, homes, offices etc)
Moscow is incorrect too. There are way more cameras. Basically every metro station has cameras at every gate. So you can pay yor fare with facial recognition. There are talks that appartment building intercoms are wired into central surveillance system too. That besides regular traffic/security cameras.
Turkey has CCTV everywhere. Even you can watch them from municipality sites
1 camera in Stockholm? Yeah...sure...lol
That’s a terrible scale
Germany: no Google street view, wir haben our own cameras.
Why there a deep dot on tallin of all places I mean not the securest place but still that many
There seems to be a weird correlation with urbanization...
LOL what? I had the feeling that there are many more cameras in Poland than in Germany. At least they were often visible from the streets, which is against data protection here.
Neutral Swiss with the most eyes, interesting
Did not realize that of all the Nordics, Norway has the most cameras.
Or the most active camera mappers. In my city, that only had a few cameras registered, I mapped more than a hundred cameras on just a few walks in the center.
I doubt that this map is particularly reliable, but Sweden does have pretty strict integrity laws creating quite a high bar for anyone wanting to put up CCTV, be it private companies or public authorities.
[Relevant xkcd](https://xkcd.com/1138/)
The vatican lol
Freedom map 🗺️
Big Brother
I really dont think, there are so many cameras in switzerland. The whole country is yellow tho.
I mean, they gotta make sure the Germans aren't cooking up sth again ig
Nope we have to track the undesirables, what do you think who owns the cameras?
Wouldn't it make more sense to have the most cameras down south of the EU where most refugees are coming in from?
They are already poor, we are just getting poor, so budget to keep our stuff safe is still a wise decision, and possible...for now
I see. Thanks for the insight, didn't expect to learn sth new from a shitpost comment
To those who do not know, security cameras aren't allowed to film public property in Germany, without permit, which isn't that easy to get! Those are mostly private security cameras, filming private property. If they film something else you can get fined.
Okay now do china
Why so low in sweden?
Chinese have a much detailed map, that includes home security cameras, too.
That yellow dot in south central Iceland is out of the middle nowhere. There’s no towns there. It looks to be approximately the location of the Jökulsárlon glacier lagoon / Diamond Beach
hmmmmm i wonder how this correlates with other things
r/peopleliveincities
Hungry, ofcourse
\#Peopleliveincities
100% NL 🎵🎵🎶
What the heck is going on in eastern Hungary? Looks like probably Nyíregyháza?
I'm not sure this is accurate... I'm Swiss and I don't see any cctv cameras besides in front of gouvernement buildings/embassys. Also according to this map our Alps are basically covered in cameras? Lol wtf
If you want to look more closely at the cameras registered on OSM: [Surveillance under Surveillance](https://sunders.uber.space/)
In any density map, it is always worth considering population density. I can't speak for other countries, but the grey parts of the Netherlands are also the most empty parts of our country, and the 2 darker dots on the coasts are definitely Amsterdam and Rotterdam+Den Haag.
Indistinguishable from a normal density map?
They need to safeguard their germoney
This might at this point just be a population density map
DATENSCHUTZ !
Now do population density.
Turkey, the libertarian paradise.
Überwachungsstaat Deutschland
Are we just gonna accept this as fact and ignore that the border between Republic of Cyprus and TRNC is grey?
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Interesting (assuming the dataset is suitably comprehensive) but I think it would be much *more* interesting to see a map of the *ratio* of camera density to population density. As it is, certainly in Western Europe, this seems to be pretty much a map of population density.