EX40's are built in Ghent Belgium, so its not all of them!
edit: The C40, EX40, EX30, EX90 are all being built in Ghent Belgium with the last two as new editions
Geely has identified the 3 weak spots in Chinese car production at the time: safety and crash structure knowledge, sportscar design and chassis development, and brand heritage. They have resolved that by taking in exactly this from Volvo (ex Ford) and Lotus (ex GM). Which, incredibly, were up for grabs. Match meets gasoline.
In stead of the European disinterest and disinvestment (see also current Stellantis, their owners don't care about cars) and US ego marching in and managing it to destruction, the Chinese have propped up the money, set the strategic goals, and let the Europeans figure it out. Volvo and Lotus are now knocking it out of the park and so are the Chinese brands that use the tech.
Why thank you! Am really interesting in BYD Atto 3 now, as per your recommendation.
... just kidding, with my exorbitant programmer's salary I have to save every penny to be able to afford a pension in my 70s, for a couple years at least (adjusted for inflation).
Once upon a time I remember reading a text how a modern capitalism has had a major win allowing middle-class movements across the locations where they were needed.
Today my universal answer towards the EU companies offering me an on-site programmers jobs reuiring me to rent an apartment costing 1/3 of the salary: let your local janitor re-educate as a programmer and clean up the shiet you've produced for the past 30 years.
I just bought that one. The only new car I can pay in 6 years right now , It was this one or Dacia Sandero. Really worried if MG decides to close customer service now...
Lets see which is the response from China, if it's deploying factories in Europe or adding taxes to eurpean goods.
Margins will drop. The price of that car won’t increase 38%, the makers will absorb more of the cost and cut corners/cook books/value-add features like sat radio or heated seats etc
Wait a second. MG Rover ZS is now made by the Chinese!? I fondly remember owning an MG ZS with a V6 engine back in England 20 years ago, prior to emigrating to Japan. How come MG ZS is now being made by the Chinese. What's happened to MG Rover during those 20 years???
Is this a cromprehensive list? I thought that the top selling model would be more given that there are roughly 10 million new car registrations in the EU per year
The website lists the number of Chinese cars registered in January & February of 2024. I roughly counted up the total cars listed and it was around 42,000 registered in the first two months of this year.
If you count the “large SUV’s” listed at the bottom of the list, it’ll be roughly 43,400 total
The website could be totally wrong or missing information, but it was the only site I could find with an actual list of Chinese car models & sales for this year
Dacia Spring
https://www.motor1.com/news/709441/2024-dacia-spring-debut/#:~:text=Its%20low%2Dcost%20Romanian%20brand,is%20getting%20a%20substantial%20makeover.
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/dacia-spring-sales-figures/
edit. Downvotes. The Spring is made in Hubei, China. It was meant for the indian market at first. It is a chinese car.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-spring-ev-could-be-built-europe#:~:text=It%20will%20continue%20to%20be,of%20building%20European%20cars%20locally.
Why sell it for 5k€ in India when you can add a few hundred euro safety equipment and sell it for 20k € in Europe.
Until we ran out of money last year, RO was giving 10k € EV subsidy, which the Spring qualified for. Nice scam on the taxpayer dime.
Because that's a French car made in China similar to how the BMW iX3 and the Lotus Eletre are made in China.
EVs made by MG are Chinese as the models are designed, manufactured and produced in China under Chinese-owned brands.
Nowadays it’s 100% Chinese. They bought the right to use the brand. Tech wasn’t transferred AFAIK, it’s a pure EV brand. There are small brands such as Lynk & co which is Chinese but has a few designers in Sweden
Tariffs apply to all brands produced in China. Even BMW or VW afaik since they all benefitted from more or less direct and indirect subsidies.
Chinese brand didn’t get a big foothold in so far probably due to lack of service networks etc.
They are forced to anyways since most other countries don’t limit china like this so either they make cheap EVs or they lose their market share in the rest of the world
The eC4 is built in Europe and is affordable.
VW plans to release the ID2 this year and an ID3 is already the same price as a comparable golf.
Renault announced the R5 which is supposed to get affordable next year.
>plagiarised or stolen
Capital owners in the EU bring all their companies to China because they have cheaper labor and can make more profits and someone it’s Chinas fault. Crazy way of avoiding the real problem.
It gets wierder than that. I know of at least one manufacturing site of devices which moved to China: Swedish engineers run the German robots and assembly machines, adhering to strict environmental standards, barely any factory workers involved. I asked why this is, given the apparent lack of savings, yet transport cost to the target markets in the West. Answer was: because this is what shareholders expect.
dude!
* Forced joint ventures
* chinese companies literally reverse engineering stuff almost all products and being proud of it
* [Massive industrial cyber espionage coups uncovered every year](https://www.reuters.com/technology/cybersecurity/us-sanctions-chinese-cyberespionage-firm-saying-it-hacked-us-energy-industry-2024-03-25/)
* [Whatever this is](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3060748/New-Chinese-sports-car-looks-suspiciously-like-Ferrari-stuck-Porsche.html)
* [Even a friggin Humvee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongfeng_EQ2050)
His point I think is that it's not like Xi came up to the CEOs of our companies and put a gun to their head. They chose to embark in this garbage in the pursuit of 3% lower labor costs and whatnot, it's not unreasonable to presume that they should have grown wise to these measures soon enough. But clearly those cost cuts were too important, and now they're crying about the consequences of their actions.
I am in favor of putting taxes on garbage behavior, but that should be on things like CO2 emissions, 996 work hours, unions being illegal... not on the fact that our corporations gambled with the Chinese and lost.
Just saying but everyone reverse engineer in the west as well. I work in R&D and one of the first things you do is buy the best competition products. I mean we dont clone but we check how is built to enhance it and build a better one
thats called benchmarking. Chinese do something really different. I got this story from a Siemens customer from me: They were called to china as a complex Siemens manufactoring aggrgate didn't work and they called a service team. They went there and found out that it was a copy of the original aggregate, which they bought too. They bought it once and copied it ten times over and some fail to even start. And they had the nerve to call the service team on the fakes...
That's what I've said. It is cheaper, but it's not that much cheaper to be a decisive factor. It's cheap*er* labour, but it's still not cheap labor.
He did, he just didn't talk about it exclusively. But it applies to solar also. Their technical innovations are what has made it commercially viable, not cheap labour.
Yes, let's double the rate of inflation in Europe and increase the price of renewable energy and deindustrialize the continent even faster, brilliant strategy. Every day I read this subreddit and think I've seen the stupidest upvoted comment yet, and then I stumble upon something like this
Starting decades ago, your country's policy-makers and business owners made the decision to outsource manufacturing to China. That decision enriched them in the short term but has proven to be poor long term strategy.
I don't see why the common Joe should now sacrifice their own buying power to protect rich people's profits. They shipped your jobs overseas to pad their own bank accounts. Every time you make a purchasing decision you should remember that.
They are not poor if they can afford a car to be honest.
It's not only 4-6k, they also have to cover insurance, service, technical checks, taxes and fuel, that's not something poor people can afford.
Germans do. Then reimport them to Germany. because they get the taxes levied on these cars back and the car sellers already sell em discounted in denmark due to the high taxes.
Yeah cheap cars that are heavily subsidized by CCP to destroy Western countries and their auto industries. Domestic businesses could do better for sure but letting them go bankrupt with the CCP whose entire objective is to upend the West and redo the world order clearly wouldn’t be wise.
I have a hard time giving a shit about our domestic businesses when they refuse to manufacture the kind of car we will need. EV are going to be the only car allowed and they are still no real cheap european options.
> they refuse to manufacture the kind of car we will need
What part of "you cant manufacture the 'kind of car we need' without subsidizing half of the entire car with ccp money" you struggle to understand?
I wonder what other entity is globally known for gargantuan subsidies into all sectors of the economy.
Instead of making our own cheap cars we are obliterating the Chinese option, thus making sure that the European citizens have no affordable option
The option is not to buy EVs. If you want a cheap EV, wait for 2030.
Heck, don't buy a new car at all, or even better, don't buy any car.
If you already have one, use the one you have until it breaks down and repairs cost more than buying a SH car.
You are making the assumption that Europe will actually start manufacturing cheap EVs, that's a big assumption. So far the only real news about cheap western EVs are project cancellations. The lack of cheap EVs on the market also means that nobody is actually moving away from petrol, no charges are being built and no infrastructure is being prepared.
And the notion that you shouldn't have a car is delightful but unrealistic.
I need a car since nobody here actually bothers to improve public transport.
And driving a car designed with planned obsolescence in mind for another decade is not particularly realistic.
I agree with you, they won't make cheap EVs, especially now that they have lost the incentive to make cheap EVs. But there's another dimension to these tarrifs. Modern cars are basically giant smartphones and in the current global order it is uncomfortable or dangerous to get giant smartphones from China for security reasons.
75% of the problem for affordable EU EV's comes down to getting processed materials at scale. With this new measure in place it will be 90% of the remaining problem.
The import tax isn't unjustified, but in the broader scheme it is just a nice little tax income and 'protecting' businesses a few more years until we'll have to raise the tax again if that's the game we want to play.
No, China’s tariff on imported cars is 15%, and it may reach 40% with other taxes. Other taxes are based on whether the vehicle is electric or its displacement (ICE), This applies equally to Chinese cars and imported cars.
Seems like nobody in the comment section needs a affordable car to get around. This, or everbody is rich and can afford all this nice Mercedes, Teslas, and BMW's...
Or you live in a city with public transport? Or ride a bike? And yes, a lot of people are richer than these comments tend to portray.
Edit: apparently this needs to be said: not everyone's lifestyle or financials are like yours or mine. Europe will not descend into oblivion because of lack of chinese cars.
Because the racist incels in this sub would rather sulk in their own shit than admit that an Asian country can do something better than the superior wEsTeRn CiViLiZaTiOn
that's nice but can we have affordable EV vehicle aswell?
that kinda defeat the purpose of EV vehicle for climate goal if the industry make giant, costy car just to get better marging, if chiness car are popular in china and everywhere else it's precisely because they are affordable
it's good to taxe them to strengthen european industry but we should also force the industry to push smaller, affordable car otherwise it only benefit the industry and no one else
Every time there's a thread about China, there's a flood of people stuttering "B-but what about!!" lmao.
Fact is, China never allowed us entry into their markets, so why the fuck should Europe or America allow them in? This has been a long time coming.
Just to clear the confusion, there are strong accusations that China uses state funds to boost their car manufacturers. And this is forbidden by international treaties
Though with the threat of climate collapse it is something all nations should be doing. We should have state funded operations to fast track inexpensive EVs to markets. Protecting profits of automakers and oil companies over consumer pocketbooks and the environment is just shortsighted.
Because they are worse.
The best solution would be public transportation but that isn't available for everyone and a lot of people are simply to lazy for as well. (At least in my bubble)
So EVs are the next best thing to reduce carbon emissions.
Yes and at the same time avoid chinese economic dumping. These people are some kind of economic terrorists that must be fought. They try to run out of business the rest of the world
But EV’s are maybe not that big an element in ‘saving the planet’. Less distance/time in a car is often even better, for example. Although you could argue of course there is some hypocrisy here.
I mean we need cheap EVs and this goes very much against that. Fuck poor people I goes because at the same time they are pushing on killing gasoline powered cars.
Ah but consider VW could do that, and sell a reasonable city designed car with a 100-150km range and reasonable interior space for £25K, Oh wait they did that, it was called the e-UP which they killed. Or they could sell you an ID3 starting at £35k and push you to buy an Id4 or 5 for over £42K.
Blame VW and the like still selling Electric vehicles as a luxury vehicle rather than a basic car.
Exactly, what's the plan for making cheap EVs in europe? There isn't one. So it's expensive EVs or cheap ICEs. They are keeping the EV market luxury only to maximize profits.
Chinese cars aren't cheaper because there is some inherent advantage for Chinese automakers outside of their weak environmental regulations. They're cheaper because they're being sold nearly at cost to try to corner the foreign market with CCP support and financial backing. Its market manipulation which you will pay for after the competition is dead. That is why the EU is instituting protectionist tariffs.
Its cheaper because there is an insane amount of competition in the EV space in China. It is cheaper because everything an EV car needs is produced domestic ally (companies like BYD are vertically integrated, they create everything needed for their cars.....they are world leading in battery tech and even Tesla buys from them). It is cheaper because of cheaper labour (that one is pretty obvious)
Why doesn't the EU do the same then? I mean, crying about others giving huge subsidies in an area which is desperately needed for the sake of this planet (EVs) and then not giving any notoceable subsidies ypurself at all is such an asshole thing to do. That is literally the most worthwhile reason to give subsidies.
Can't wait in some 10 years time for China to have an overwhelming percentage of EVs on the road wheras in Europe the cheapest electrical semidecent auto to cost 35k euros where the majority of the population will still drive diesel ones
I can't imagine paying for EV as family from a village in my country... in the big cities you earn more pay more the price difference of EV and gas is significant but can be managed.
But where you earn less and pay less the car price easily makes half of your house value.
99% of Amazon products are manufactured in China. I don’t think people are so keen on « decoupling » from evil dictatorship anytime soon.
We close our eyes on working conditions if it means 50$ for a drill with next day delivery
So, the EU is controlled by big car manufacturer countries (Germany and France and Italy) and they defend their own industries in this one.
One could think that the faster we get rid of oil based transportation and switch to electric cars, the better.
EU is hypocritical when criticizing state subsidies as the whole EU is based on farming subsidies and tariffs against agriculture products anyway.
You don't understand how it works. The Chinese government is funding companies at the point that the price of the cars is lower than the cost to produce them. The purpose is to remove foreign companies from the marketplace. When the Chinese companies will be the only ones left, they will have the monopoly so they will increase the price as much as they want because nobody will have the chance to buy cars somewhere else.
That's the problem for developed countries, but it's even worse for poor areas like Africa. Every single country was able to grow thanks to industrial revolutions (Saudi Arabia is probably the only exception), but as long as China keeps on exporting a massive amount of goods at an extremly low price, poor countries will never be able to grow because everyone buy goods from China. There's not a natural cycle anymore. The only way to survive to China's goods is to produce something niche, precious and complex, but that's something that only developed countries can do. This means that poor countries are doomed to be poor forever as long as China keeps acting like that.
Anyway, China had heavy duties for years and it did a lot of illegal actions. They simply complain when other countries do the same.
All EU car companies were very vocally against this and their stocks are all down about 15% over this, because it isn’t actually the good news you think they are for them.
They do meet safety standards, those are done in eu. Only thing they could do is send special models for testing that get good scores and sell worse cars to general public (toyota did that…).
Now… i think they are actually decent cars with cheaper workforce, it’s still bad what they do, especialy since they are so cheap because of china government covering part of the price.
I'm confused why I keep seeing blatant misinformation comments like yours get upvoted. Do people care about the truth or do they just want a lie they can agree with?
US has been spending millions in creating anti china propaganda in the last few years
https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/china-news/21091-a-500-million-dollar-business-america-s-state-sponsored-anti-china-propaganda.html
They want a lie that will allow them to keep believing Chinese car industry is overtaking because they make "cheap copies", as if we're still in 2004, and that anyone selling EVs at a lower price than Tesla can only do so through fraudulent business.
Both sides disrupting the "free" market and hurting the commonfolk because of geopolitics 🥴.
On a more serious note, it's important we prioritize progressive economical development through our own states, outer interests aren't the only ones preventing it from happening, we need to face the inner resistance as well.
There are many other problems affecting the average family and individual as well, so it's important we keep that in mind, while ensuring it's a one generational "fix" but one that helps future generations too!
Alright, my overpriced Mercedes that can’t get shipped due to software issue will now have less reasons to try to improve. The EU got lazy and behind, and are getting rewarded for it. This was the one opportunity to get EVs to the middle class.
Free as in it should be fair for everyone, not Chinese brands an advantage because of subsidy from the Chinese government. That's one of the reason why they can sell their cars cheaper than European brands.
Which is the most popular Chinese car in EU?
Volvo
EX40's are built in Ghent Belgium, so its not all of them! edit: The C40, EX40, EX30, EX90 are all being built in Ghent Belgium with the last two as new editions
Production for the new EV models are going to be moved to Belgium, so Volvo’s sitting pretty compared to other affected brands
The Swedes caved to the CCP. Should’ve blocked the Chinese from acquiring it.
Ford sold it to them after completely mismanaging and fucking up the company and seeing no future Value in it.
Americans and fucking up European car makers, name a more iconic duo
Ford sold it to them. Genius move, handing supply chain and production experts the tech they needed and a premium brand name on top.
Ironically, Geely has been great for Volvo.
Geely has identified the 3 weak spots in Chinese car production at the time: safety and crash structure knowledge, sportscar design and chassis development, and brand heritage. They have resolved that by taking in exactly this from Volvo (ex Ford) and Lotus (ex GM). Which, incredibly, were up for grabs. Match meets gasoline. In stead of the European disinterest and disinvestment (see also current Stellantis, their owners don't care about cars) and US ego marching in and managing it to destruction, the Chinese have propped up the money, set the strategic goals, and let the Europeans figure it out. Volvo and Lotus are now knocking it out of the park and so are the Chinese brands that use the tech.
American capitalists are even worse at making disastrous decisions for the country just to maximize profits. Thanks for the correction.
They enjoy cutting the branch theyre sitting on for short term profits. See what became of General Electric.
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I'm also seeing Cherry in Barcelona now that there's plans for a factory here.
Why thank you! Am really interesting in BYD Atto 3 now, as per your recommendation. ... just kidding, with my exorbitant programmer's salary I have to save every penny to be able to afford a pension in my 70s, for a couple years at least (adjusted for inflation).
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Once upon a time I remember reading a text how a modern capitalism has had a major win allowing middle-class movements across the locations where they were needed. Today my universal answer towards the EU companies offering me an on-site programmers jobs reuiring me to rent an apartment costing 1/3 of the salary: let your local janitor re-educate as a programmer and clean up the shiet you've produced for the past 30 years.
I just bought that one. The only new car I can pay in 6 years right now , It was this one or Dacia Sandero. Really worried if MG decides to close customer service now... Lets see which is the response from China, if it's deploying factories in Europe or adding taxes to eurpean goods.
Margins will drop. The price of that car won’t increase 38%, the makers will absorb more of the cost and cut corners/cook books/value-add features like sat radio or heated seats etc
Wait a second. MG Rover ZS is now made by the Chinese!? I fondly remember owning an MG ZS with a V6 engine back in England 20 years ago, prior to emigrating to Japan. How come MG ZS is now being made by the Chinese. What's happened to MG Rover during those 20 years???
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Heh ...
Tesla model 3 (I believe we get the ones made in China as there are some issues in Tesla Berlin)
For 2024 so far, [it’s been the MG ZS](https://uk.motor1.com/news/716242/chinese-cars-most-sold-europe-early-2024/)
Is this a cromprehensive list? I thought that the top selling model would be more given that there are roughly 10 million new car registrations in the EU per year
The website lists the number of Chinese cars registered in January & February of 2024. I roughly counted up the total cars listed and it was around 42,000 registered in the first two months of this year. If you count the “large SUV’s” listed at the bottom of the list, it’ll be roughly 43,400 total The website could be totally wrong or missing information, but it was the only site I could find with an actual list of Chinese car models & sales for this year
I’m starting to see some BYDs around where I live. Dunno who would drive around with a ‘Build Your Dreams’ logo but apparently they exist.
Idk. I have never seen BYD cars in real life. If they are actually cheaper than cab companies might be buying them? Idk.
Dacia Spring https://www.motor1.com/news/709441/2024-dacia-spring-debut/#:~:text=Its%20low%2Dcost%20Romanian%20brand,is%20getting%20a%20substantial%20makeover. https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/dacia-spring-sales-figures/ edit. Downvotes. The Spring is made in Hubei, China. It was meant for the indian market at first. It is a chinese car. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-spring-ev-could-be-built-europe#:~:text=It%20will%20continue%20to%20be,of%20building%20European%20cars%20locally.
>It was meant for the indian market at first. and flopped considering I'm hearing this for the first time
Why sell it for 5k€ in India when you can add a few hundred euro safety equipment and sell it for 20k € in Europe. Until we ran out of money last year, RO was giving 10k € EV subsidy, which the Spring qualified for. Nice scam on the taxpayer dime.
Because that's a French car made in China similar to how the BMW iX3 and the Lotus Eletre are made in China. EVs made by MG are Chinese as the models are designed, manufactured and produced in China under Chinese-owned brands.
Of course Tesla produced in China
They produce in Berlin too no?
Yes, but either different models or not enough, but an article stated that Tesla imports by far the most electric cars to the EU from China
It’s been a few years, but I think they make the high end trims in Germany and ship in the base trims with LFP batteries
Most likely Yutong bus
BYD
BYD has only sold 8000 cars in all of Europe in 2024. The most popular Chinese EVs in Europe are European brands produced in China.
And the most sold cars designed in China are MG
So, MG is a Chinese brand or a european one?
Nowadays it’s 100% Chinese. They bought the right to use the brand. Tech wasn’t transferred AFAIK, it’s a pure EV brand. There are small brands such as Lynk & co which is Chinese but has a few designers in Sweden
Do costumers are aware that are buying a Chinese brand ?
Absolutely
Exactly, but question is, what Chinese brand?
Tariffs apply to all brands produced in China. Even BMW or VW afaik since they all benefitted from more or less direct and indirect subsidies. Chinese brand didn’t get a big foothold in so far probably due to lack of service networks etc.
That means EU carmakers will now make actually affordable EVs, right? Right?!
Hahahaha good joke. Why the fuck would they, if we keep protecting them like this.
They are forced to anyways since most other countries don’t limit china like this so either they make cheap EVs or they lose their market share in the rest of the world
The eC4 is built in Europe and is affordable. VW plans to release the ID2 this year and an ID3 is already the same price as a comparable golf. Renault announced the R5 which is supposed to get affordable next year.
The golf? A golf is not an affordable car. You are incredibly out of touch
If you need an affordable car and buy new you're definitely doing something wrong
Should be much more, plus on machine tools, semiconductors and solar panels. In fact on anything that China has plagiarised or stolen.
100% agree
Yeah, because you can use cheap labour, not steal ideas.
>plagiarised or stolen Capital owners in the EU bring all their companies to China because they have cheaper labor and can make more profits and someone it’s Chinas fault. Crazy way of avoiding the real problem.
It gets wierder than that. I know of at least one manufacturing site of devices which moved to China: Swedish engineers run the German robots and assembly machines, adhering to strict environmental standards, barely any factory workers involved. I asked why this is, given the apparent lack of savings, yet transport cost to the target markets in the West. Answer was: because this is what shareholders expect.
dude! * Forced joint ventures * chinese companies literally reverse engineering stuff almost all products and being proud of it * [Massive industrial cyber espionage coups uncovered every year](https://www.reuters.com/technology/cybersecurity/us-sanctions-chinese-cyberespionage-firm-saying-it-hacked-us-energy-industry-2024-03-25/) * [Whatever this is](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3060748/New-Chinese-sports-car-looks-suspiciously-like-Ferrari-stuck-Porsche.html) * [Even a friggin Humvee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongfeng_EQ2050)
> Whatever this is But wait! There's more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_S8
this is HILARIOUS a Megane that had Sex with a W209
His point I think is that it's not like Xi came up to the CEOs of our companies and put a gun to their head. They chose to embark in this garbage in the pursuit of 3% lower labor costs and whatnot, it's not unreasonable to presume that they should have grown wise to these measures soon enough. But clearly those cost cuts were too important, and now they're crying about the consequences of their actions. I am in favor of putting taxes on garbage behavior, but that should be on things like CO2 emissions, 996 work hours, unions being illegal... not on the fact that our corporations gambled with the Chinese and lost.
Just saying but everyone reverse engineer in the west as well. I work in R&D and one of the first things you do is buy the best competition products. I mean we dont clone but we check how is built to enhance it and build a better one
thats called benchmarking. Chinese do something really different. I got this story from a Siemens customer from me: They were called to china as a complex Siemens manufactoring aggrgate didn't work and they called a service team. They went there and found out that it was a copy of the original aggregate, which they bought too. They bought it once and copied it ten times over and some fail to even start. And they had the nerve to call the service team on the fakes...
Price of labor is negligible factor in manufacturing EVs. These factories require highly educated and skilled workforce, not some cheap labor.
China has that, but cheaper, again. And at that the user above didn't even talk about EVs
That's what I've said. It is cheaper, but it's not that much cheaper to be a decisive factor. It's cheap*er* labour, but it's still not cheap labor. He did, he just didn't talk about it exclusively. But it applies to solar also. Their technical innovations are what has made it commercially viable, not cheap labour.
Intellectual properties on stuff that can advance humanity like clean energy are an evil and it's good it's "stolen"
I would agree if China's current policy wasn't "world domination, sneakily". Surely you see the signs of that too.
Yeah the cost of living in Europe isn’t high enough, let’s triple it.
Yes, let's double the rate of inflation in Europe and increase the price of renewable energy and deindustrialize the continent even faster, brilliant strategy. Every day I read this subreddit and think I've seen the stupidest upvoted comment yet, and then I stumble upon something like this
Are solar panels really an issue if they are made way cheaper? Don't we want easy and cheap access to green energy?
I thought EU wanted to save the planet and one really good way of doing this is by EVs and highly optimised manufacturing process?
Starting decades ago, your country's policy-makers and business owners made the decision to outsource manufacturing to China. That decision enriched them in the short term but has proven to be poor long term strategy. I don't see why the common Joe should now sacrifice their own buying power to protect rich people's profits. They shipped your jobs overseas to pad their own bank accounts. Every time you make a purchasing decision you should remember that.
We can't have cheap Chinese EV cars but at least we can't afford European cars too! What a time to be alive 🥳
If you buy 30k+ cars you are not poor. I know peoole that buy 4-6k cars, they are poor.
They are not poor if they can afford a car to be honest. It's not only 4-6k, they also have to cover insurance, service, technical checks, taxes and fuel, that's not something poor people can afford.
4-6k euros? Here in Denmark you could get a shitty car for 2k euros
Let's see the price for new cars in Denamark
Take the german Price and slap a 100% tax on top, then you have it :) we just bought a used 2020 Kia optima phev, for ~26k euro
who knows, i dont know anyone who bought a new car
Germans do. Then reimport them to Germany. because they get the taxes levied on these cars back and the car sellers already sell em discounted in denmark due to the high taxes.
Nice, this is only ~5 minimum monthly wages in Romania. 5months without food and shelter and you can afford shitty car. Dream.
And then pay 10k to fix it up?
10k to fix a car like that is not worth it lol
4-6k card might be more expensive in the long run than 30k car + interest rates
Yes that is true but if you really have no money the 4-6k car can just sit while the 30k you still need to find the money!
Yeah cheap cars that are heavily subsidized by CCP to destroy Western countries and their auto industries. Domestic businesses could do better for sure but letting them go bankrupt with the CCP whose entire objective is to upend the West and redo the world order clearly wouldn’t be wise.
I have a hard time giving a shit about our domestic businesses when they refuse to manufacture the kind of car we will need. EV are going to be the only car allowed and they are still no real cheap european options.
> they refuse to manufacture the kind of car we will need What part of "you cant manufacture the 'kind of car we need' without subsidizing half of the entire car with ccp money" you struggle to understand?
I wonder what other entity is globally known for gargantuan subsidies into all sectors of the economy. Instead of making our own cheap cars we are obliterating the Chinese option, thus making sure that the European citizens have no affordable option
The option is not to buy EVs. If you want a cheap EV, wait for 2030. Heck, don't buy a new car at all, or even better, don't buy any car. If you already have one, use the one you have until it breaks down and repairs cost more than buying a SH car.
You are making the assumption that Europe will actually start manufacturing cheap EVs, that's a big assumption. So far the only real news about cheap western EVs are project cancellations. The lack of cheap EVs on the market also means that nobody is actually moving away from petrol, no charges are being built and no infrastructure is being prepared. And the notion that you shouldn't have a car is delightful but unrealistic. I need a car since nobody here actually bothers to improve public transport. And driving a car designed with planned obsolescence in mind for another decade is not particularly realistic.
They will make cheap EVs once they have to. ID2, etc.
I agree with you, they won't make cheap EVs, especially now that they have lost the incentive to make cheap EVs. But there's another dimension to these tarrifs. Modern cars are basically giant smartphones and in the current global order it is uncomfortable or dangerous to get giant smartphones from China for security reasons.
75% of the problem for affordable EU EV's comes down to getting processed materials at scale. With this new measure in place it will be 90% of the remaining problem. The import tax isn't unjustified, but in the broader scheme it is just a nice little tax income and 'protecting' businesses a few more years until we'll have to raise the tax again if that's the game we want to play.
And in the meantime you’re saving the planet while driving your gas… car… wait…
I am shocked its only 38%, but its a start Ig.
BYD shares actually went up after the announcement, so I guess the market was also shocked it’s so low
Apparently it's because BYD's profit margins of cars sold here are way way higher than in China where they have so much competition with price wars.
Plus the 10% already in place for all vehicle imports
It's all fun and games until China retaliates and the Germans lose millions of sales over there.
There is already 40%+ import duty for foreign cars in China. We’re just making things equal
No, China’s tariff on imported cars is 15%, and it may reach 40% with other taxes. Other taxes are based on whether the vehicle is electric or its displacement (ICE), This applies equally to Chinese cars and imported cars.
Shocked, shocked I tell you. Well not that shocked.
Seems like nobody in the comment section needs a affordable car to get around. This, or everbody is rich and can afford all this nice Mercedes, Teslas, and BMW's...
Dude they are just blinded by their hatred for anything China. Such stupid people, enjoy your more expensive and inferior European alternatives. 😑
Or you live in a city with public transport? Or ride a bike? And yes, a lot of people are richer than these comments tend to portray. Edit: apparently this needs to be said: not everyone's lifestyle or financials are like yours or mine. Europe will not descend into oblivion because of lack of chinese cars.
I live on a island and don't having a car is not an option...
Because the racist incels in this sub would rather sulk in their own shit than admit that an Asian country can do something better than the superior wEsTeRn CiViLiZaTiOn
yeah because those are the only cars available in the EU.
that's nice but can we have affordable EV vehicle aswell? that kinda defeat the purpose of EV vehicle for climate goal if the industry make giant, costy car just to get better marging, if chiness car are popular in china and everywhere else it's precisely because they are affordable it's good to taxe them to strengthen european industry but we should also force the industry to push smaller, affordable car otherwise it only benefit the industry and no one else
Unfortunately.
Every time there's a thread about China, there's a flood of people stuttering "B-but what about!!" lmao. Fact is, China never allowed us entry into their markets, so why the fuck should Europe or America allow them in? This has been a long time coming.
We not trying to save the planet anymore?
Until german automakers start crying at the eurocrats about their overpriced stuff getting slapped by ccp evs.
Even the CEO of Mercedes was critical of these tariffs and said they will not do much to increase competitiveness of the European car industry.
The real reason is them being scared of duties retaliation by china.
beating the Chinese is more important than saving the planet
Just to clear the confusion, there are strong accusations that China uses state funds to boost their car manufacturers. And this is forbidden by international treaties
Though with the threat of climate collapse it is something all nations should be doing. We should have state funded operations to fast track inexpensive EVs to markets. Protecting profits of automakers and oil companies over consumer pocketbooks and the environment is just shortsighted.
Every country does this, chinese are just ahead in this area and germons cant afford to lose the market so they impose this tax for all of eu
Shipping cars across the planet might not be saving the planet earther.
EVs aren't a great solution to that. Personal auto mobiles, be they electric or otherwise, are a hugely wasteful and inefficient way to move people.
So back to horses then? Or zero freedom for people?
> EVs aren't a great solution to that. So why ban sale of combustion engine vehicles?
Because they are worse. The best solution would be public transportation but that isn't available for everyone and a lot of people are simply to lazy for as well. (At least in my bubble) So EVs are the next best thing to reduce carbon emissions.
We're trying to save it for the people benefitting from these policies, not ourselves.
Yes and at the same time avoid chinese economic dumping. These people are some kind of economic terrorists that must be fought. They try to run out of business the rest of the world
But EV’s are maybe not that big an element in ‘saving the planet’. Less distance/time in a car is often even better, for example. Although you could argue of course there is some hypocrisy here.
Have to love those higher taxes for non EV’s.
I mean we need cheap EVs and this goes very much against that. Fuck poor people I goes because at the same time they are pushing on killing gasoline powered cars.
Ah but consider VW could do that, and sell a reasonable city designed car with a 100-150km range and reasonable interior space for £25K, Oh wait they did that, it was called the e-UP which they killed. Or they could sell you an ID3 starting at £35k and push you to buy an Id4 or 5 for over £42K. Blame VW and the like still selling Electric vehicles as a luxury vehicle rather than a basic car.
The Citroen e-C3 is something like €23k and is built in Slovakia. There are much cheaper options than an ID3 that aren't Chinese imports.
But why would they need to shift to making cheap cars when everyone will be forced to buy their expensive cars?
Reminder that the base ID3 is sold in China for £13.500.
Exactly, what's the plan for making cheap EVs in europe? There isn't one. So it's expensive EVs or cheap ICEs. They are keeping the EV market luxury only to maximize profits.
French automakers are making inroads. Choice in the mid market looks to go up in 2025
Chinese cars aren't cheaper because there is some inherent advantage for Chinese automakers outside of their weak environmental regulations. They're cheaper because they're being sold nearly at cost to try to corner the foreign market with CCP support and financial backing. Its market manipulation which you will pay for after the competition is dead. That is why the EU is instituting protectionist tariffs.
Its cheaper because there is an insane amount of competition in the EV space in China. It is cheaper because everything an EV car needs is produced domestic ally (companies like BYD are vertically integrated, they create everything needed for their cars.....they are world leading in battery tech and even Tesla buys from them). It is cheaper because of cheaper labour (that one is pretty obvious)
Why doesn't the EU do the same then? I mean, crying about others giving huge subsidies in an area which is desperately needed for the sake of this planet (EVs) and then not giving any notoceable subsidies ypurself at all is such an asshole thing to do. That is literally the most worthwhile reason to give subsidies. Can't wait in some 10 years time for China to have an overwhelming percentage of EVs on the road wheras in Europe the cheapest electrical semidecent auto to cost 35k euros where the majority of the population will still drive diesel ones
I can't imagine paying for EV as family from a village in my country... in the big cities you earn more pay more the price difference of EV and gas is significant but can be managed. But where you earn less and pay less the car price easily makes half of your house value.
And then they wonder why people vote far-right...Now add that to another reason...!
good, a small step to decoupling from this evil chinese dictatorship.
99% of Amazon products are manufactured in China. I don’t think people are so keen on « decoupling » from evil dictatorship anytime soon. We close our eyes on working conditions if it means 50$ for a drill with next day delivery
Not really gonna happen. It’s just gonna be a bit more expensive.
Wonder what the response will be
May be good for the European car companies but not for the customers.
So, the EU is controlled by big car manufacturer countries (Germany and France and Italy) and they defend their own industries in this one. One could think that the faster we get rid of oil based transportation and switch to electric cars, the better. EU is hypocritical when criticizing state subsidies as the whole EU is based on farming subsidies and tariffs against agriculture products anyway.
You don't understand how it works. The Chinese government is funding companies at the point that the price of the cars is lower than the cost to produce them. The purpose is to remove foreign companies from the marketplace. When the Chinese companies will be the only ones left, they will have the monopoly so they will increase the price as much as they want because nobody will have the chance to buy cars somewhere else. That's the problem for developed countries, but it's even worse for poor areas like Africa. Every single country was able to grow thanks to industrial revolutions (Saudi Arabia is probably the only exception), but as long as China keeps on exporting a massive amount of goods at an extremly low price, poor countries will never be able to grow because everyone buy goods from China. There's not a natural cycle anymore. The only way to survive to China's goods is to produce something niche, precious and complex, but that's something that only developed countries can do. This means that poor countries are doomed to be poor forever as long as China keeps acting like that. Anyway, China had heavy duties for years and it did a lot of illegal actions. They simply complain when other countries do the same.
This comment is hilarious
The first two sentences are true. Beyond that, it's speculation.
Getting rid of normal cars for a price of even more reliance on china is a steep price.
All EU car companies were very vocally against this and their stocks are all down about 15% over this, because it isn’t actually the good news you think they are for them.
Because China will retaliate with tariffs of it's own and German brands still sell a lot of cars in China.
[удалено]
They do meet safety standards, those are done in eu. Only thing they could do is send special models for testing that get good scores and sell worse cars to general public (toyota did that…). Now… i think they are actually decent cars with cheaper workforce, it’s still bad what they do, especialy since they are so cheap because of china government covering part of the price.
I'm confused why I keep seeing blatant misinformation comments like yours get upvoted. Do people care about the truth or do they just want a lie they can agree with?
US has been spending millions in creating anti china propaganda in the last few years https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/china-news/21091-a-500-million-dollar-business-america-s-state-sponsored-anti-china-propaganda.html
They want a lie that will allow them to keep believing Chinese car industry is overtaking because they make "cheap copies", as if we're still in 2004, and that anyone selling EVs at a lower price than Tesla can only do so through fraudulent business.
It's the same people who always bitch about Russian or Chinese troll accounts. It's especially bad on major subs like here.
Mg 4 gets a 5 🌟 from euro ncap. What safety standards are they missing?
Many cars have 5 stars euro ncap. This comment is straight up a lie. Probably a CIA bot
what industry?
That was years ago, Chinese cars sold in the EU currently do very well in those tests.
This will only make all other cars more expensive.
But why
Also on VW cars built in China?
Won't this ultimately just increase the cost of living crisis in the EU?
Both sides disrupting the "free" market and hurting the commonfolk because of geopolitics 🥴. On a more serious note, it's important we prioritize progressive economical development through our own states, outer interests aren't the only ones preventing it from happening, we need to face the inner resistance as well. There are many other problems affecting the average family and individual as well, so it's important we keep that in mind, while ensuring it's a one generational "fix" but one that helps future generations too!
Very good, respect to EU
Alright, my overpriced Mercedes that can’t get shipped due to software issue will now have less reasons to try to improve. The EU got lazy and behind, and are getting rewarded for it. This was the one opportunity to get EVs to the middle class.
cant wait for a proper trade war with china. Germany will be in recession for the next 10 years
Uh huh, because China isn't literally an export focused economy.
Good , keep those death traps away.
Those "death traps" have great safety ratings. For example, every BYD tested on EuroNCAP got 5/5 stars.
Make those shitty cars more expensive make sense
"Free market" lol
Apt name.
Free as in it should be fair for everyone, not Chinese brands an advantage because of subsidy from the Chinese government. That's one of the reason why they can sell their cars cheaper than European brands.
German car makers have received a lot of subsidies
Who said it was?