I am from Tuscany and I know well most of those areas.
Some of the place [in the list](https://www301.regione.toscana.it/bancadati/atti/Contenuto.xml?id=5422965&nomeFile=Decreto_n.12500_del_06-06-2024-Allegato-1) are really good for a tourist, but most of them are villages in the middle of nothing on the mountains. Forget about Chianti or other well knows area.
I think the area in Elba island or on the hills near Pisa can be a good opportunity. Areas like Garfagnana or Appennino are more problematic.
I will suggest to visit the place in advance and rent an house for a while, before start this process. Anyway, I think that it can be a good opportunity if you find a place that you really like.
Mostly the lack of infrastructure. No shop, no doctor, no school… and of course, no work. Sometimes not even internet. Roads in bad conditions, so it takes a long time to go anywhere. Expect mostly retired people as neighbours, so difficult for social life. Some of these areas are kind of ok, but others really are in the middle of nowhere.
Honestly, as someone who works from home, lives pretty frugally, and cycles for a hobby, everything but the lack of Internet sounds fine to me.
If they'd hook a single one of these villages up to fiber, I'd strongly consider moving
I would live in Pitigliano if I could work fully remote. There’s also a nice pub where they play live music in the weekends. Not so dead actually. Plus the food and the place is amazing. One hour to the sea…Pitigliano is tops.
> Expect mostly retired people as neighbours, so difficult for social life.
That's the precise description of my megalopolis suburban neighborhood. Trying to get local friends last 15 years - with zero success, no social life is possible after 30 I guess.
This is only for a handful of remote mountain villages. But not specific to Italy, it’s the same in most European countries with remote mountain villages
The main problem is that those area are far from the main cities and industrial areas. In the past the main activities were agriculture or some nowadays closed industries. Youngs move from there to go in the university in the biggest cities and never go back.
If you have a low level job (plumber, painter, etc.) it's not hard to find a job also there.
It is, but since its an island everything needs to come via ship or plane. You have to consider that you will be paying vastly more for almost everything. And since there are mostly small shops on the island, you may not always get what you need. So planning shopping trips to the mainland might be neccessary.
It depends a lot to the area. Government had a project to bring wideband in almost every village in Italy, but it's a bit in delay.
Some rural and remote areas are covered by decent wifi providers and the last resort is still Starlink.
Wanna bet it's not actually quiet but hordes of seniors watching you and complaining about everything you dare to do because they're bored out of their mind? :p
This is all well and good in intention, but what are people to do there if they don’t speak Italian and need to work? What is the target demographic for this?
I would think they want younger people to move there to start families and build a tax base. But to do that they needs jobs. I’m failing to understand how this really helps a lot of the right people they want to attract.
Interesting, many companies are moving away from fully remote. Makes you wonder if someone buys a home then a year later they ask you to come in office twice a week.
This is great advice: rent in the neighborhood where you intend to buy before sinking all of your capital into it, that gives you a much better chance to evaluate what it's like to live there \*and\* you get a much better idea of which particular area and property would suit you - and your budget and capabilities - best. Catalog shopping for a house that needs renovation is a great way to end up disappointed, broke or both.
My wife is from Scandinavia and she works for an agency that sell houses in Tuscany to Scandinavians.
I stole this advice from her, it's one of the first things that she suggest to her customers.
> This is great advice: rent in the neighborhood where you intend to buy before sinking all of your capital into it
The program's only open for applications for less than a month from right now, so good luck with that idea
"
* Tuscan officials created a $3,000,000 fund to incentivize people to move to the rural countryside.
* The fund will pay people grants of up to $32,000 to move to Tuscany and fix up a home there.
* The grants will pay 50% of the costs of renovations. Applicants must make the property their primary home.
\[...\] The program is open to Italians, EU residents, and non-EU citizens — so long as they have established long-term residency lasting no less than 10 years. Eligible applicants must commit to making the Tuscan property their primary home.
Applications for the program close on July 27.
\[...\]"
Wdym I can't just buy my own villa in the countryside to spend one week there in August and rent it as airbnb for the rest of the year????!!!!! Literally 1984!!!!!!!
Government not subsidizing my airbnb empire plans is literally communism. Once again we see that landlords are the most oppressed class in society.
We need to overthrow the evil government that doesn't help me exclusively.
Make it your primary residence for a year or two as you are fixing it up and getting the expenses covered. Afterwards, it's not as if the Italian government can ask their money back if you decide to move around again.
You missed the part about 10 years. And I'm pretty sure they can ask for their money back if you decide to move before then. That's how these type of grants usually work.
> and non-EU citizens — so long as they have established long-term residency lasting no less than 10 years.
I think you misunderstood it. Non-EU citizens can apply as long as they have been living in Italy for at least 10 years. At least that's how I interpret it.
The catch is likely that it’ll be homes with a big need for repairs and that they’ll require you to have them done properly in the historical style which will be insanely expensive.
I'm pretty handy and I work in construction, but if you have to do the Reno's in the equivalent of a heritage property like in north america then I pass.
I think if you are a good mason and are handy it could be doable, it just looks like lots of stone and structural work. I also have no idea what is code in Italy/EU.
Not really, as long as you have a car you can get to most relevant places in very little time and most roads are at least somewhat mantained even in the countryside.
I'm stressing out on the car because busses are unreliable at best and very much not frequent, if you don't like walking an hour to the nearest city you kinda need it.
Pros: silence all around (neighbor are usually nice too) and beautiful view
Cons: uncomfortable if you don't have a car and WiFi sucks bad
>if you don't like walking an hour to the nearest city
So 5-6km from nearest city is bumfuck in Italy. Sounds like a sweetspot to me. As a Finn that's an average suburb. And you get the bonus of quiet and beautiful surroundings as well. Crappy internet would be much bigger dealbreaker for me.
Bumfuck in Finland means you'd walk 8 hours to nearest city.
In Tuscany? No. The catch is more to do with the job market. Some parts of Tuscany have it worse than the average, either because they are rural and isolated (e.g. some places in the Appenini mountains or the islands of the Tuscan archipelago) or because they relied on the dying steel industry (Piombino and neighbouring towns).
And obviously being one of the most visited regions in Italy, lots of shitty hospitality jobs.
Otherwise the A1 motorway runs through most of the region, the fast speed freccia takes you to Florence or Rome in 1/2 h
These places never had foreigners living in them in the first place. The Italians are the first to move out.
It sucks when there are no jobs, no youth, and no entertainment made for young people. And this is not a problem unique to Tuscany or Italy, it's dying small town everywhere in the world.
How is that a catch? Is it a secret that Tuscany is in the middle of nowhere? I'm sure anyone who is willing to permanently move somewhere is also willing to do the absolute minimum amount of research on the location they're moving to.
That's still not a catch. They literally tell you exactly what they will give you and what you are required to do. It's your responsibility to research potential expenses further.
I'm actually really curious about the cost analysis that lead to then concluding 64k should be enough. I guess the expectation is to fix it up be just 'ok' and not truly a modern renovation.
You could get the house for free. If you look online at the kind of houses that this refers to then you'll see quickly that 'ruin' is a better description than 'house' and you're lucky if the roof is still on. Likely you'd be off cheaper and faster to rebuild but \*that\* is not allowed. So these come with quite a few strings attached.
It's not about real estate, as much as it is about material and labor costs, both of which have skyrocketed. Getting skilled workers to do the repairs in a rural area won't cost any less than it will in a city and material prices are deeply affected by both the war and the shit economic situation in general. So it's more about Europe as a whole.
There's an italian couple on YT . They have bought a 1 euro house in Sicily . And they talk about all the expenses and all the work it takes to renovate such houses. Leave everything behind their channel I think
Yes, but not a chance that restoring a house like that to living conditions is going to cost you under 64K. Coincidentally a friend of mine was looking into this a few weeks ago and listed a number of properties, we looked at them and the best of the lot would still cost >> 100K in materials alone to bring it up to modern standards. Biggest costs would be sewage system but roofing, power and other infra really adds up as well. So unless you have a multiple of that 32K you won't end up with a livable house.
The catch is that the rural area is probably cut off from all services (Healthcare, Police, free time attractions, markets, etc...).
I know a few people who own a house in rural Tuscany but they go there only in summer for a couple of weeks tops.
Speaking with one of them, the best thing someone could do to actually live there regularly could be to establish a commune: everyone involved has a role and together they create a semi autonomous group and you rely on outside help only when needed (ex. Needing serious medical assistance, which coul be provided by a hospital helicopter getting there asap).
Well I just [read](https://www.businessinsider.com/tuscany-americans-moving-italy-cost-of-living-slow-pace-2024-3?international=true&r=US&IR=T) that more and more Americans move to Tuscany. So that is a bit of a downside.
>Doesn't seem like there's much of a catch.
Until you realize the areas you are supposed to move your primary residence have little to no services...which is why those areas are facing young and adult population drain and government officials offer this kind of deals.
That's the catch.
If one is ok at the idea of moving to a rural area with vety little modern services then there's no catch. If one thinks to move to a stereotypical Tuscan hamlet with Vespas, gelato and friendly families all around in a perennal summer vacation...well, *then* there's a catch.
The catch is that 64K isn't much. If the cost of renovations is 500€/m², you can fix up a 128m² home. That's barely enough. If you have to redo the roof or god forbid the foundation, then you are already on your own, investing into a house that you won't be able to sell.
> Doesn't seem like there's much of a catch.
The catch is that you have to pay taxes + social contributions in Italy and actually live there, with everything that entails. This scheme isn't particularly new or unique, other EU countries have it as well.
These schemes usually end up as flops for a reason.
Considering it's open to both EU & Non-EU citizens, I'm guessing Italy. They WANT you to move to Tuscany so it's obviously not a requirement to having been there for the past 10 years.
Question is, do they pay 50% of the costs of renovations up to 32k (and why the fuck is this written in dollar instead of euro), or is it that they pay for 50% of the costs of renovations and give you an additional 32k to get started on top of that ?
Actually the "Residency in the mountains 2024" scheme of the Tuscany region says that the maximum amount of the contribution cannot exceed 50% of the total expenses incurred for the costs related to the purchase of the property and its related premises; only expenses for the sole purchase of the property intended for residence and habitual dwelling are eligible.
[https://www301.regione.toscana.it/bancadati/atti/Contenuto.xml?id=5422964&nomeFile=Decreto\_n.12500\_del\_06-06-2024-Allegato-A](https://www301.regione.toscana.it/bancadati/atti/Contenuto.xml?id=5422964&nomeFile=Decreto_n.12500_del_06-06-2024-Allegato-A)
The "Residency in the mountains 2024" scheme of the Tuscany region says this:
At the time of submitting the application, the applicant must declare under their own responsibility that they meet the following subjective requirements:
a) Be an Italian citizen or a citizen of another European Union country, or be a non-EU subject holding a residence permit valid for at least 10 years, as specified in Article 9 of Legislative Decree 286/1998.
b) Be of legal age.
c) Be a resident in an Italian municipality that is not classified as a mountain area according to the latest official Istat data available on the date of approval of the executive decree for the call for applications ( [https://www301.regione.toscana.it/bancadati/atti/Contenuto.xml?id=5422963&nomeFile=Decreto\_n.12500\_del\_06-06-2024-Allegato-2](https://www301.regione.toscana.it/bancadati/atti/Contenuto.xml?id=5422963&nomeFile=Decreto_n.12500_del_06-06-2024-Allegato-2) )
Non existant, no mobile signal at all in many villages let alone between villages, many houses without reliable water supply, oil tanks and sewage tanks for your house. Also many derelict and empty houses means no customers for shops/restaurants/bars so those have died too. If you want a modern style life rural Italy is not the place for you. If you want to live the life of a writer during the 1960s it is perfect.
Parts of rural Ireland sound quite similar.
Oil tank? Got it
Septic tank? Yup
Nearest shop is just a little corner shop at best? Of course
Nearest big shop is about 30 minutes of driving? Yeah Lidl is far.
Is there a pub or restaurant nearby? There was about 5 years ago.
Welcome to Castlemaine Co. Kerry!
Though the Internet is better at least haha
American here. I lived in Tuscany for 5 years. Just getting a dog passport there about broke my sanity. Sooooo many offices to visit and boxes to check. Italians invented red tape.
How shit can it be? Did you live there?
I come from an area very close to the one offered here and it's paradise to me. Total immersion with mesmerising nature.
If you are into nature, not having humans around, fresh air quality, having a garden, peace, silence, then it's paradise.
When you say "how shit the situation can be" I think of suburbs of huge cities... Rampant crime, rampant catcalling, smog, pollution, tarmac, grey palette, too many humans, dirtyness..
But that's what most people want these days.
I lived there and then in the city, specifically around florence. You are bound to your car, infrastructure is lackluster and most ambulance spot had their medical staff reduced. There's not many jobs and worst of all, during summer water quality drops and at times the acqueduct had little pressure so you had to have a well or you were relegated to bottled water.
When I lived in the city and needed an ambulance for a serious medical emergency, the dispatcher told me to take an aspirin and then hung up on me. I ended up having to call a taxi. The driver said it was a very common thing to have happen, and he often had to drive emergency cases to the hospital. The doctor at the city hospital was complaining about reduced staff...
The difference is that in North America or the UK, for example, many rural areas are essentially massive suburbs. You get high speed Internet, gas, water, sometimes even sewer. Recreation centers and shops that will cover basic needs. You can live 15 miles from a city and get most of the amenities. In places like Spain and Italy, services can drop off much more quickly. For example dirt roads with steep sections only navigable with a 4x4. Definitely takes a bit more research.
How many km did you or your wife have to travel to work? What about hospital or pharmacy? What about a school for the kids or university? What about cinema or activities that is not just gardening or Netflix and chill?
Don't get me wrong, I also think it's awesome to live isolated, but I also think it's fine as an escape or holiday, but in the real world day to day life things may be a bit challenging, especially with work.
People want amenities, close distance to medical and school institutions, close distance to cultural and entertainment venues, close distance to their hobbies of choice like sports that require more players and/or specific location like golf, tennis and others. And people want well paying jobs.
More so than not, people don't like the things you described, because of course they don't, but cities provide much more than that.
That's what I've said, it's not for everyone. I don't want all that stuff. I live in a major European city outside of Italy and it's the literal definition of hell for me.
I am happy to drive more and enjoy my car ride without an inch of traffic to get to my cultural venue.
You could easily retire there, but you have to have very low expectations of services and infrastructure (water, power, sewage, internet, shopping, healthcare). You also should research the tax implications. But for younger people the trend is the reverse and that's precisely why it's so empty there: there isn't any good way to earn a living there, and there isn't good education which is important if you have kids.
I've lived in a rural area and all of the above factored into moving back to the civilized world. It was great and I wouldn't have missed it but I also would not go back.
pretty much. Often it's only the walls which are salvageable, and unlike what most american posters think, the bureaucreacy and the limitations involved in home makeovers make these efforts way more of a pain in the ass than they should be
Bureaucracy, say no more.
If the conditions were right I'd be interested. But you may need a crew of builders. An Etruscan style house in the hills sounds like a dream.
Dude stuck in tuscan village here: Internet coverage averages out at relatively solid these days, but if you find yourself in one of the few patches of land not supported it is absolute pain
My neighbors bought a house there just to vacation. I plan to move there when I retire. Retirees only pay 3% of income tax. I will buy a house in Tuscany and a vacation house in my homeland. Live in Italy in the winter and live in the Netherlands in the summer. Sounds like a good deal to me.
Sounds like a good plan indeed! What does a normal sized house cost down there in Tuscany? And are local companies able to do all the necessary renovations?
I'm 10 years from retiring, so I haven't put a lot of research into it.
But if I was to retire now I figure 200 thousand for a house in Tuscany and 300 thousand for a vacation home in the Netherlands would do the job. That still leaves me 250 thousand to supplement my retirement income.If you're not Dutch, you can't permanently live in a vacation house, that's why they are cheap.
My neighbors love it there. Of course, you probably don't want to be there in the summer.
For 200k you can get a pretty nice mansion in Tuscany, if you don't mind living in the middle of fucking nowhere. Of course, you'll probably need to spend at least another 100k on renovations, although you would actually get some help from the State for that. But still, 300k for a renovated, old style, 1200 sq. meters mansion does sound pretty good, especially considering that for the same amount you're getting an average apartment in most big cities here.
(https://www.immobiliare.it/annunci/98442872/ example of what I mean)
Collapsed parts of the building. I used to work in a camping and the staff (mostly teenagers) was housed in an old farm house with a collapsed barn in the center and two (very old) wings with some rooms and two shared bathrooms (one for men, one for women)
That is way, way to big. I'm thinking 150 square meters, with a nice view. It's just the two of us, and we only live in a stupid big house now because it is basically our retirement fund.
Suggestion: Don't move to Italy.
Government and public/private services are inadequate everywhere in the country.
Move there only if you're actually rich af and can delegate tasks to someone else.
Of course, it's not the third world but you'll find yourself angry with many things.
If the 32000 euros makes the difference for you then you shouldn't do it. You'll spend a large multiple of that on renovating the kind of houses that you will find there (in materials alone), especially if you want to bring them up to modern standards. This is great if (1) you're into fixing things (2) have a lot of spare time (3) do not depend on the region for your income (4) do not have children and don't plan on having any in the near future (5) don't mind learning an extra language (this is not optional) or already speak Italian (6) are in excellent health.
Tbf isnt this thread like literally proof that not a lot of people want to actually live like that? Italy is willing to give you what is essentially twice the amount of their yearly median net wage to live like this while nobody gives you shit for moving to Paris or Rome
>You underestimate how many people see that as a good thing.
no redditors overestimate how many people are hermits, otherwise the Italian government wouldn't hand out tens of thousands for you to move there. Almost all functioning adults want a social life and would go crazy living in a village full of 60 year olds.
> There are no jobs, no access to doctors, no schools and no supermarkets.
Tuscany is not Southern Italy and the healtcare system is one of the best in Italy.
When you say "out of the way", how far are you talking about? In the US, driving 40-60km isn't out of the way for a lot of people. I'd love to do this, but if these places are so isolated, I don't know if it's even worth looking into.
as a retired person this seems pretty tempting to me. As long as you \*could\* get to a doctor in the same time as other rural outlying areas (30-45m?), and you could use something like starlink (but w/o the idiot)...quiet parts of Italy are lovely by my standards.
In my childhood when a rusty nail went right thru my foot, my folks drove me 30minutes...to a veterinarian. That was the closest medical help at the time. This was Ontario, btw, but long ago. :)
A book, a cat, a bottle (or two) of wine, and an internet connection...good enough!
That said, this could get them some tax revenue for a few decades, retirees rather than vacant, but I don't see it really revitalizing areas where the economy has passed them by. Maybe if remote work gets better accepted (I did that for a few years and loved it), idk.
As a medical doctor currently travelling to Tuscany from eastern europe this might change my life. Seriously considering this now. We’ll visit Volterra next week.
Not to be insensitive or anything, but why is rural depopulation such a big problem to the point where we need to pay people just to move to those places? Why is it so important that human beings occupy every single squared kilometer of this planet?
Can't we just like, accept that there are some places where people don't want to live and let those areas return to nature? Seems like that would be the better solution both financially and for our native biodiversity, since animals don't usually enjoy having humans around.
> why is rural depopulation such a big problem to the point where we need to pay people just to move to those places?
The problem here is that most of those villages have lot of things to preserve (i.e. from cultural standpoint) and they need someone that can take there of that.
Yeah no, 32k subsidy is about nothing when it comes to renovation costs for old houses. It's a husk that needs to be rebuilt and brought up to modern standards. Nothing will be easy, except parting with your money. Mid six figures, probably more. It only makes sense if you're ok with minimal renovations and living like your ancestors did, with minimal comforts.
Hmm, if Italy is this much in need, maybe start conversations with sinking coastal communities like those in Tuvalu? There must be thousands of people now who need to be relocated from areas that are becoming unlivable due to climate change.
What can I do for living there? Wine yards or agriculture, livestock? I believe a pickup truck would do the job, what else? Are the houses really that big to change the roof, repaint from the inside and inspect the electricity and water pipes? What else, what else, do the locals speak a little bit of English at least to understand each other with hands and feet? Are the local veterinarian and hospital like 15-30 km away, not super special first aid places but at least some medical facilities and supplies? If so, count me in, no matter the dead line is near!
Depends where, the ones near pisa are fine, but some others in the mountains, they’re really in the middle of nowhere. Might even be tricky to find contractors to do renovations. No medical facilities nearby of course, you’ll be lucky if you have a doctor 30mn drive away.
These are not necessarily all bad opportunities, but you have to look at each area individually. Also note that you can find similar deals in other European countries. France, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Ireland…
These places need to offer UBI and that's it really. Stop this convoluted schemes of "we offer you 5k plus 43% off your shopping cart but only if it's groceries and we also help you paint your house but if you stay for less than 20 years you have to give it back with interests."
I recall checking a few YouTube videos about 1e homes.
Some of the catches: use of local builders with their inflated prices, you bear the costs of sharing a house with a possible abandoned one, imagine infiltrations, pests, etc.
My government is doing similar stuff if anyone is interested in moving to the middle of nowhere to become neighbours to racist old people and keep their towns alive.
I am from Tuscany and I know well most of those areas. Some of the place [in the list](https://www301.regione.toscana.it/bancadati/atti/Contenuto.xml?id=5422965&nomeFile=Decreto_n.12500_del_06-06-2024-Allegato-1) are really good for a tourist, but most of them are villages in the middle of nothing on the mountains. Forget about Chianti or other well knows area. I think the area in Elba island or on the hills near Pisa can be a good opportunity. Areas like Garfagnana or Appennino are more problematic. I will suggest to visit the place in advance and rent an house for a while, before start this process. Anyway, I think that it can be a good opportunity if you find a place that you really like.
What’s wrong with the problematic areas? Is it just the lack of local amenities, or are there other factors making them hard to settle?
Mostly the lack of infrastructure. No shop, no doctor, no school… and of course, no work. Sometimes not even internet. Roads in bad conditions, so it takes a long time to go anywhere. Expect mostly retired people as neighbours, so difficult for social life. Some of these areas are kind of ok, but others really are in the middle of nowhere.
Honestly, as someone who works from home, lives pretty frugally, and cycles for a hobby, everything but the lack of Internet sounds fine to me. If they'd hook a single one of these villages up to fiber, I'd strongly consider moving
> the lack of Internet You can get Starlink.
No hospital nearby is a big no-no for me.
username checks out ^(/s)
Some are!
It depends a lot to the areas: places in Maremma (Roccalbegna, Pitigliano, etc.) are just in the middle of a sparse and underpopulated area.
I would live in Pitigliano if I could work fully remote. There’s also a nice pub where they play live music in the weekends. Not so dead actually. Plus the food and the place is amazing. One hour to the sea…Pitigliano is tops.
Pitigliano is an hidden gem, very underrated.
> Expect mostly retired people as neighbours, so difficult for social life. That's the precise description of my megalopolis suburban neighborhood. Trying to get local friends last 15 years - with zero success, no social life is possible after 30 I guess.
Join some clubs, first port of call.
I'm good with everything else you mentioned but lost me at no internet.
This is only for a handful of remote mountain villages. But not specific to Italy, it’s the same in most European countries with remote mountain villages
Probably nothing stopping you from getting starlink internet, should be good for most things, except maybe gaming.
Starlink, brah
The main problem is that those area are far from the main cities and industrial areas. In the past the main activities were agriculture or some nowadays closed industries. Youngs move from there to go in the university in the biggest cities and never go back. If you have a low level job (plumber, painter, etc.) it's not hard to find a job also there.
Damn, they're selling houses from the island of Capraia? I may consider one myself.
Yes, Isola di Capraia or Isola d'Elba can offer good opportunities. In the list I saw also some places not far from Volterra.
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Yes, but it's still an island and a bit remote. Especially in the winter, not so many people are living there.
And easier to escape if youre exiled
Doubt most people here are French though
If you try to leave, they'll move you to St Helen next.
It is, but since its an island everything needs to come via ship or plane. You have to consider that you will be paying vastly more for almost everything. And since there are mostly small shops on the island, you may not always get what you need. So planning shopping trips to the mainland might be neccessary.
*Able was I, ere I saw Elba.*
How’s the internet connection there? If it’s all right then all is good
It depends a lot to the area. Government had a project to bring wideband in almost every village in Italy, but it's a bit in delay. Some rural and remote areas are covered by decent wifi providers and the last resort is still Starlink.
For rural areas in Europe, I think the best option is to use Starlink. You can get decent internet in the middle of nowhere.
I loved Elba so much when we stayed there. A perfect size for an island, somehow.
Napoleon would beg to differ
Well yeah, I guess he would 😄
I'd want nothing more than to live in a quiet Italian village!
If you are lucky and speak a bit of Italian, it can be a nice experience.
Well, I'm willing to learn! But unironically, just living in an old house on a hill with views of the valley and other villages is literally my dream.
Would you want to live in one with no shops, no doctor, and no work though?
If I had enough money to not need a job, yeah 😅
Wanna bet it's not actually quiet but hordes of seniors watching you and complaining about everything you dare to do because they're bored out of their mind? :p
This is all well and good in intention, but what are people to do there if they don’t speak Italian and need to work? What is the target demographic for this? I would think they want younger people to move there to start families and build a tax base. But to do that they needs jobs. I’m failing to understand how this really helps a lot of the right people they want to attract.
I think it's to attract people that are working remotely and can work remotely.
Interesting, many companies are moving away from fully remote. Makes you wonder if someone buys a home then a year later they ask you to come in office twice a week.
Tons of fully remote jobs in it, especially if you have some experience
This is great advice: rent in the neighborhood where you intend to buy before sinking all of your capital into it, that gives you a much better chance to evaluate what it's like to live there \*and\* you get a much better idea of which particular area and property would suit you - and your budget and capabilities - best. Catalog shopping for a house that needs renovation is a great way to end up disappointed, broke or both.
My wife is from Scandinavia and she works for an agency that sell houses in Tuscany to Scandinavians. I stole this advice from her, it's one of the first things that she suggest to her customers.
It makes perfect sense. I did much the same when I went to live in rural Canada and it worked out quite well.
> This is great advice: rent in the neighborhood where you intend to buy before sinking all of your capital into it The program's only open for applications for less than a month from right now, so good luck with that idea
Folks should absolutely check out Monculi Scalo
I know Monculi Sott'Empoli :D
" * Tuscan officials created a $3,000,000 fund to incentivize people to move to the rural countryside. * The fund will pay people grants of up to $32,000 to move to Tuscany and fix up a home there. * The grants will pay 50% of the costs of renovations. Applicants must make the property their primary home. \[...\] The program is open to Italians, EU residents, and non-EU citizens — so long as they have established long-term residency lasting no less than 10 years. Eligible applicants must commit to making the Tuscan property their primary home. Applications for the program close on July 27. \[...\]"
Doesn't seem like there's much of a catch. Seems pretty fair.
Wdym I can't just buy my own villa in the countryside to spend one week there in August and rent it as airbnb for the rest of the year????!!!!! Literally 1984!!!!!!!
Actually... you can. You just won't get helped for this.
The audacity.....
STOP THE STEAL! STOP THE STEAL!
Pittsburgh in shambles.
Government not subsidizing my airbnb empire plans is literally communism. Once again we see that landlords are the most oppressed class in society. We need to overthrow the evil government that doesn't help me exclusively.
I don't want help running a business, that is work. I want a cash deposit. Fuck the government.
Make it your primary residence for a year or two as you are fixing it up and getting the expenses covered. Afterwards, it's not as if the Italian government can ask their money back if you decide to move around again.
You missed the part about 10 years. And I'm pretty sure they can ask for their money back if you decide to move before then. That's how these type of grants usually work.
> and non-EU citizens — so long as they have established long-term residency lasting no less than 10 years. I think you misunderstood it. Non-EU citizens can apply as long as they have been living in Italy for at least 10 years. At least that's how I interpret it.
Living in Europe for at least 10 years no? Otherwise what would be the point in additionally mentioning EU citizens?
The groups are: * Italian nationals * EU citizens * non-EU citizens with residency >10 years in Italy At least, that's my interpretation.
10 years is a pretty airtight precaution, I'll give them that
If it doesn't work exactly like that one expansion to Witcher 3, then it's literally a war crime.
The catch is likely that it’ll be homes with a big need for repairs and that they’ll require you to have them done properly in the historical style which will be insanely expensive.
I'm pretty handy and I work in construction, but if you have to do the Reno's in the equivalent of a heritage property like in north america then I pass.
I think if you are a good mason and are handy it could be doable, it just looks like lots of stone and structural work. I also have no idea what is code in Italy/EU.
The catch is you have to move in the middle of bumfuck nowhere, a place where even the locals run away.
If your vibe is to live in bumfuck nowhere, then Tuscany is the best place to do it.
It is as beautiful bumfuck nowhere as it gets, that’s for sure.
is the infrastructure as bad as I imagine it is?
Not really, as long as you have a car you can get to most relevant places in very little time and most roads are at least somewhat mantained even in the countryside. I'm stressing out on the car because busses are unreliable at best and very much not frequent, if you don't like walking an hour to the nearest city you kinda need it. Pros: silence all around (neighbor are usually nice too) and beautiful view Cons: uncomfortable if you don't have a car and WiFi sucks bad
>if you don't like walking an hour to the nearest city So 5-6km from nearest city is bumfuck in Italy. Sounds like a sweetspot to me. As a Finn that's an average suburb. And you get the bonus of quiet and beautiful surroundings as well. Crappy internet would be much bigger dealbreaker for me. Bumfuck in Finland means you'd walk 8 hours to nearest city.
Not so crappy: 100 Mbit with radio bridge, 30 euro per month, or get starlink for 40.
I could live with that.
In Tuscany? No. The catch is more to do with the job market. Some parts of Tuscany have it worse than the average, either because they are rural and isolated (e.g. some places in the Appenini mountains or the islands of the Tuscan archipelago) or because they relied on the dying steel industry (Piombino and neighbouring towns). And obviously being one of the most visited regions in Italy, lots of shitty hospitality jobs. Otherwise the A1 motorway runs through most of the region, the fast speed freccia takes you to Florence or Rome in 1/2 h
Probably bad but after you've used DB you can survive everything
I was trained in the hardest environments
In Italy alone, Tuscany Is the most touristy bumfuck nowhere of the country. The other 19 regions would all have better bumfuck nowhere places by far.
Clearly, there's too much supply of bumfuck nowhere Tuscany compared to the demand for it, ergo the need for incentives from the local government
Well demand from italians atleast. Foreigners are less likely to move in due to how hard settling in is.
These places never had foreigners living in them in the first place. The Italians are the first to move out. It sucks when there are no jobs, no youth, and no entertainment made for young people. And this is not a problem unique to Tuscany or Italy, it's dying small town everywhere in the world.
Do they have Internet? If so, I don't see a problem.
How is that a catch? Is it a secret that Tuscany is in the middle of nowhere? I'm sure anyone who is willing to permanently move somewhere is also willing to do the absolute minimum amount of research on the location they're moving to.
I'm answering to a guy on reddit, who is almost certain to have no interest in moving there, and put no effort into researching the area.
If you think 32K are enough to fix the houses in Tuscany, oh boy are you in for a surprise.
That's still not a catch. They literally tell you exactly what they will give you and what you are required to do. It's your responsibility to research potential expenses further.
No, it's not, they even say it. It's 50% of the cost, up to 32k. So they assume it will take up to 64k and they will support you with half of it.
I'm actually really curious about the cost analysis that lead to then concluding 64k should be enough. I guess the expectation is to fix it up be just 'ok' and not truly a modern renovation.
How do you guys know so much about real estate in rural Tuscany?
You could get the house for free. If you look online at the kind of houses that this refers to then you'll see quickly that 'ruin' is a better description than 'house' and you're lucky if the roof is still on. Likely you'd be off cheaper and faster to rebuild but \*that\* is not allowed. So these come with quite a few strings attached.
It's not about real estate, as much as it is about material and labor costs, both of which have skyrocketed. Getting skilled workers to do the repairs in a rural area won't cost any less than it will in a city and material prices are deeply affected by both the war and the shit economic situation in general. So it's more about Europe as a whole.
There's an italian couple on YT . They have bought a 1 euro house in Sicily . And they talk about all the expenses and all the work it takes to renovate such houses. Leave everything behind their channel I think
[Video for those interested](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQAPSdRIvMo), I will watch it soon.
Yes, but not a chance that restoring a house like that to living conditions is going to cost you under 64K. Coincidentally a friend of mine was looking into this a few weeks ago and listed a number of properties, we looked at them and the best of the lot would still cost >> 100K in materials alone to bring it up to modern standards. Biggest costs would be sewage system but roofing, power and other infra really adds up as well. So unless you have a multiple of that 32K you won't end up with a livable house.
What about 64k? Because thats what this is about.
The catch is that the rural area is probably cut off from all services (Healthcare, Police, free time attractions, markets, etc...). I know a few people who own a house in rural Tuscany but they go there only in summer for a couple of weeks tops. Speaking with one of them, the best thing someone could do to actually live there regularly could be to establish a commune: everyone involved has a role and together they create a semi autonomous group and you rely on outside help only when needed (ex. Needing serious medical assistance, which coul be provided by a hospital helicopter getting there asap).
Well I just [read](https://www.businessinsider.com/tuscany-americans-moving-italy-cost-of-living-slow-pace-2024-3?international=true&r=US&IR=T) that more and more Americans move to Tuscany. So that is a bit of a downside.
Gosh, I feel bad about Italians right now.
>Doesn't seem like there's much of a catch. Until you realize the areas you are supposed to move your primary residence have little to no services...which is why those areas are facing young and adult population drain and government officials offer this kind of deals. That's the catch. If one is ok at the idea of moving to a rural area with vety little modern services then there's no catch. If one thinks to move to a stereotypical Tuscan hamlet with Vespas, gelato and friendly families all around in a perennal summer vacation...well, *then* there's a catch.
The catch is that 64K isn't much. If the cost of renovations is 500€/m², you can fix up a 128m² home. That's barely enough. If you have to redo the roof or god forbid the foundation, then you are already on your own, investing into a house that you won't be able to sell.
> Doesn't seem like there's much of a catch. The catch is that you have to pay taxes + social contributions in Italy and actually live there, with everything that entails. This scheme isn't particularly new or unique, other EU countries have it as well. These schemes usually end up as flops for a reason.
established long term residency where exactly? Tuscany? Italy? EU?
Considering it's open to both EU & Non-EU citizens, I'm guessing Italy. They WANT you to move to Tuscany so it's obviously not a requirement to having been there for the past 10 years. Question is, do they pay 50% of the costs of renovations up to 32k (and why the fuck is this written in dollar instead of euro), or is it that they pay for 50% of the costs of renovations and give you an additional 32k to get started on top of that ?
Actually the "Residency in the mountains 2024" scheme of the Tuscany region says that the maximum amount of the contribution cannot exceed 50% of the total expenses incurred for the costs related to the purchase of the property and its related premises; only expenses for the sole purchase of the property intended for residence and habitual dwelling are eligible. [https://www301.regione.toscana.it/bancadati/atti/Contenuto.xml?id=5422964&nomeFile=Decreto\_n.12500\_del\_06-06-2024-Allegato-A](https://www301.regione.toscana.it/bancadati/atti/Contenuto.xml?id=5422964&nomeFile=Decreto_n.12500_del_06-06-2024-Allegato-A)
The "Residency in the mountains 2024" scheme of the Tuscany region says this: At the time of submitting the application, the applicant must declare under their own responsibility that they meet the following subjective requirements: a) Be an Italian citizen or a citizen of another European Union country, or be a non-EU subject holding a residence permit valid for at least 10 years, as specified in Article 9 of Legislative Decree 286/1998. b) Be of legal age. c) Be a resident in an Italian municipality that is not classified as a mountain area according to the latest official Istat data available on the date of approval of the executive decree for the call for applications ( [https://www301.regione.toscana.it/bancadati/atti/Contenuto.xml?id=5422963&nomeFile=Decreto\_n.12500\_del\_06-06-2024-Allegato-2](https://www301.regione.toscana.it/bancadati/atti/Contenuto.xml?id=5422963&nomeFile=Decreto_n.12500_del_06-06-2024-Allegato-2) )
Sweet, how is the infrastructure over there, electricity, internet, mobile coverage 2/3 or 4g or NOg?
Non existant, no mobile signal at all in many villages let alone between villages, many houses without reliable water supply, oil tanks and sewage tanks for your house. Also many derelict and empty houses means no customers for shops/restaurants/bars so those have died too. If you want a modern style life rural Italy is not the place for you. If you want to live the life of a writer during the 1960s it is perfect.
Parts of rural Ireland sound quite similar. Oil tank? Got it Septic tank? Yup Nearest shop is just a little corner shop at best? Of course Nearest big shop is about 30 minutes of driving? Yeah Lidl is far. Is there a pub or restaurant nearby? There was about 5 years ago. Welcome to Castlemaine Co. Kerry! Though the Internet is better at least haha
What if I just fix it up moderately and keep the rest of the money?
Receipts
you still have to live there
What's the rest? If you spend 5K, they'll give you 5K.
They’ll give you 2.5k. They are offering to pay for half of the renovation cost up to 32k
This actually sounds like an adventure.
Italian bureaucracy is an adventure indeed.
American here. I lived in Tuscany for 5 years. Just getting a dog passport there about broke my sanity. Sooooo many offices to visit and boxes to check. Italians invented red tape.
I‘m German, I‘ve been training my entire life for this!
a lot of people will underestimate how shit the situation can be in the italian countryside
living on the country side has its disadvantages namely distances to infrastructure (medical, car workshops, shopping..)
No Uber Eats there?
Shit you'd be lucky to get _eats_ out there.
This is true. I traveled italy on my motorcycle in rural parts and i was always starving
Should have taken some food with you
Farming country it’s in your backyard
How shit can it be? Did you live there? I come from an area very close to the one offered here and it's paradise to me. Total immersion with mesmerising nature. If you are into nature, not having humans around, fresh air quality, having a garden, peace, silence, then it's paradise. When you say "how shit the situation can be" I think of suburbs of huge cities... Rampant crime, rampant catcalling, smog, pollution, tarmac, grey palette, too many humans, dirtyness.. But that's what most people want these days.
I lived there and then in the city, specifically around florence. You are bound to your car, infrastructure is lackluster and most ambulance spot had their medical staff reduced. There's not many jobs and worst of all, during summer water quality drops and at times the acqueduct had little pressure so you had to have a well or you were relegated to bottled water.
When I lived in the city and needed an ambulance for a serious medical emergency, the dispatcher told me to take an aspirin and then hung up on me. I ended up having to call a taxi. The driver said it was a very common thing to have happen, and he often had to drive emergency cases to the hospital. The doctor at the city hospital was complaining about reduced staff...
that sounds like rural areas basically everywhere
That's a bit simplistic.
I live in a rural area and i don't have any of these problems.
Yea but like Belgian rural area, How far is the nearest town for you?
12 minutes max lmao
Rural areas in Finland and I’m sure in all of Nordics have no problems at all apart from obvious things like long distances.
The difference is that in North America or the UK, for example, many rural areas are essentially massive suburbs. You get high speed Internet, gas, water, sometimes even sewer. Recreation centers and shops that will cover basic needs. You can live 15 miles from a city and get most of the amenities. In places like Spain and Italy, services can drop off much more quickly. For example dirt roads with steep sections only navigable with a 4x4. Definitely takes a bit more research.
I live in Turin and you are bound to your car as well.
I live in Turin too and never felt the need to buy a car
I've been to Torino once. Although not with a car. But I have a car.
How many km did you or your wife have to travel to work? What about hospital or pharmacy? What about a school for the kids or university? What about cinema or activities that is not just gardening or Netflix and chill? Don't get me wrong, I also think it's awesome to live isolated, but I also think it's fine as an escape or holiday, but in the real world day to day life things may be a bit challenging, especially with work.
People want amenities, close distance to medical and school institutions, close distance to cultural and entertainment venues, close distance to their hobbies of choice like sports that require more players and/or specific location like golf, tennis and others. And people want well paying jobs. More so than not, people don't like the things you described, because of course they don't, but cities provide much more than that.
That's what I've said, it's not for everyone. I don't want all that stuff. I live in a major European city outside of Italy and it's the literal definition of hell for me. I am happy to drive more and enjoy my car ride without an inch of traffic to get to my cultural venue.
You could easily retire there, but you have to have very low expectations of services and infrastructure (water, power, sewage, internet, shopping, healthcare). You also should research the tax implications. But for younger people the trend is the reverse and that's precisely why it's so empty there: there isn't any good way to earn a living there, and there isn't good education which is important if you have kids. I've lived in a rural area and all of the above factored into moving back to the civilized world. It was great and I wouldn't have missed it but I also would not go back.
If you have a remote job and/or retired and it's close to cities - it's actually not bad
With renovate they mean rebuild the place from scratch I bet?
pretty much. Often it's only the walls which are salvageable, and unlike what most american posters think, the bureaucreacy and the limitations involved in home makeovers make these efforts way more of a pain in the ass than they should be
Bureaucracy, say no more. If the conditions were right I'd be interested. But you may need a crew of builders. An Etruscan style house in the hills sounds like a dream.
If you're thinking of getting a place there don't bother. There's really nothing available.
It’s booked solid.
You telling me there's not one place in Del Vista Boca ?
I cant get a sublet, a guest room, a cot, nothing?
Si Si, this a-one, capisce
Whatever you say, Bob Cobb!
I prefer people to call me Maestro. (I only clicked on this post looking for these comments)
i happened to watch this episode yesterday and came looking for the reference.
Wouldn't mind if the infrastructure (internet - FTTH!) is decent... I work remotely and love countryside and calm and peace :D
Dude stuck in tuscan village here: Internet coverage averages out at relatively solid these days, but if you find yourself in one of the few patches of land not supported it is absolute pain
My neighbors bought a house there just to vacation. I plan to move there when I retire. Retirees only pay 3% of income tax. I will buy a house in Tuscany and a vacation house in my homeland. Live in Italy in the winter and live in the Netherlands in the summer. Sounds like a good deal to me.
Sounds like a good plan indeed! What does a normal sized house cost down there in Tuscany? And are local companies able to do all the necessary renovations?
I'm 10 years from retiring, so I haven't put a lot of research into it. But if I was to retire now I figure 200 thousand for a house in Tuscany and 300 thousand for a vacation home in the Netherlands would do the job. That still leaves me 250 thousand to supplement my retirement income.If you're not Dutch, you can't permanently live in a vacation house, that's why they are cheap. My neighbors love it there. Of course, you probably don't want to be there in the summer.
For 200k you can get a pretty nice mansion in Tuscany, if you don't mind living in the middle of fucking nowhere. Of course, you'll probably need to spend at least another 100k on renovations, although you would actually get some help from the State for that. But still, 300k for a renovated, old style, 1200 sq. meters mansion does sound pretty good, especially considering that for the same amount you're getting an average apartment in most big cities here. (https://www.immobiliare.it/annunci/98442872/ example of what I mean)
If this is buono stato, then what is a bad state?
Collapsed parts of the building. I used to work in a camping and the staff (mostly teenagers) was housed in an old farm house with a collapsed barn in the center and two (very old) wings with some rooms and two shared bathrooms (one for men, one for women)
That is way, way to big. I'm thinking 150 square meters, with a nice view. It's just the two of us, and we only live in a stupid big house now because it is basically our retirement fund.
Is this the region of the [gravel race](https://www.tuscanytrail.it/en/)? Because that's beautiful.
Yes. And also the Strade Bianche. And some places (like San Godenzo) are where the Tour stages passed yesterday.
Suggestion: Don't move to Italy. Government and public/private services are inadequate everywhere in the country. Move there only if you're actually rich af and can delegate tasks to someone else. Of course, it's not the third world but you'll find yourself angry with many things.
If the 32000 euros makes the difference for you then you shouldn't do it. You'll spend a large multiple of that on renovating the kind of houses that you will find there (in materials alone), especially if you want to bring them up to modern standards. This is great if (1) you're into fixing things (2) have a lot of spare time (3) do not depend on the region for your income (4) do not have children and don't plan on having any in the near future (5) don't mind learning an extra language (this is not optional) or already speak Italian (6) are in excellent health.
No cafes no restaurants, no bars. If you need anything , please drive for 20km
You underestimate how many people see that as a good thing. The part where the closest assholes are 20 clicks away ( neighbors not included)
Tbf isnt this thread like literally proof that not a lot of people want to actually live like that? Italy is willing to give you what is essentially twice the amount of their yearly median net wage to live like this while nobody gives you shit for moving to Paris or Rome
Clearly a tiny minority otherwise these places wouldn't be dying out.
I would love this and do it if I could afford it
>You underestimate how many people see that as a good thing. no redditors overestimate how many people are hermits, otherwise the Italian government wouldn't hand out tens of thousands for you to move there. Almost all functioning adults want a social life and would go crazy living in a village full of 60 year olds.
Forget cafes, restaurants and bars. There are no jobs, no access to doctors, no schools and no supermarkets.
> There are no jobs, no access to doctors, no schools and no supermarkets. Tuscany is not Southern Italy and the healtcare system is one of the best in Italy.
That’s at worst maybe 23-30 minute drive.
Far too long just to go to a bar or café.
They are in very out of the way towns in Tuscany.
When you say "out of the way", how far are you talking about? In the US, driving 40-60km isn't out of the way for a lot of people. I'd love to do this, but if these places are so isolated, I don't know if it's even worth looking into.
The catch is most people can't afford to uproot their lives and move to a foreign country in which the primary language is not English.
as a retired person this seems pretty tempting to me. As long as you \*could\* get to a doctor in the same time as other rural outlying areas (30-45m?), and you could use something like starlink (but w/o the idiot)...quiet parts of Italy are lovely by my standards. In my childhood when a rusty nail went right thru my foot, my folks drove me 30minutes...to a veterinarian. That was the closest medical help at the time. This was Ontario, btw, but long ago. :) A book, a cat, a bottle (or two) of wine, and an internet connection...good enough! That said, this could get them some tax revenue for a few decades, retirees rather than vacant, but I don't see it really revitalizing areas where the economy has passed them by. Maybe if remote work gets better accepted (I did that for a few years and loved it), idk.
As a medical doctor currently travelling to Tuscany from eastern europe this might change my life. Seriously considering this now. We’ll visit Volterra next week.
Not to be insensitive or anything, but why is rural depopulation such a big problem to the point where we need to pay people just to move to those places? Why is it so important that human beings occupy every single squared kilometer of this planet? Can't we just like, accept that there are some places where people don't want to live and let those areas return to nature? Seems like that would be the better solution both financially and for our native biodiversity, since animals don't usually enjoy having humans around.
> why is rural depopulation such a big problem to the point where we need to pay people just to move to those places? The problem here is that most of those villages have lot of things to preserve (i.e. from cultural standpoint) and they need someone that can take there of that.
Yeah no, 32k subsidy is about nothing when it comes to renovation costs for old houses. It's a husk that needs to be rebuilt and brought up to modern standards. Nothing will be easy, except parting with your money. Mid six figures, probably more. It only makes sense if you're ok with minimal renovations and living like your ancestors did, with minimal comforts.
Hmm, if Italy is this much in need, maybe start conversations with sinking coastal communities like those in Tuvalu? There must be thousands of people now who need to be relocated from areas that are becoming unlivable due to climate change.
oh man.. If I had the money and possibilities I would absolutely love to move to Tuscany.
What can I do for living there? Wine yards or agriculture, livestock? I believe a pickup truck would do the job, what else? Are the houses really that big to change the roof, repaint from the inside and inspect the electricity and water pipes? What else, what else, do the locals speak a little bit of English at least to understand each other with hands and feet? Are the local veterinarian and hospital like 15-30 km away, not super special first aid places but at least some medical facilities and supplies? If so, count me in, no matter the dead line is near!
Depends where, the ones near pisa are fine, but some others in the mountains, they’re really in the middle of nowhere. Might even be tricky to find contractors to do renovations. No medical facilities nearby of course, you’ll be lucky if you have a doctor 30mn drive away. These are not necessarily all bad opportunities, but you have to look at each area individually. Also note that you can find similar deals in other European countries. France, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Ireland…
These places need to offer UBI and that's it really. Stop this convoluted schemes of "we offer you 5k plus 43% off your shopping cart but only if it's groceries and we also help you paint your house but if you stay for less than 20 years you have to give it back with interests."
Do they even have drinkable tap water on Capraia?
They drink wine
Watered wine you barbarian :)
I may consider it.
Is the catch that you have to move to Tuscany?
Italy offering incentives for residency. Tempting!
Well, probably there were reasons why those areas became naturally abandoned? Will this artificial way of bringing back life work in long term?
I recall checking a few YouTube videos about 1e homes. Some of the catches: use of local builders with their inflated prices, you bear the costs of sharing a house with a possible abandoned one, imagine infiltrations, pests, etc.
My government is doing similar stuff if anyone is interested in moving to the middle of nowhere to become neighbours to racist old people and keep their towns alive.