No, lol. There are several posts with 100+ upboats supporting the speech. That's why that person in the second pic is complaining. The first pic is from the women's sub.
It's really amazing that the general idea in that sub is that "oh yeah Catholic women can do anything, they can work, they have freedom, we are not some dumb evangelicals who want to keep women down". And then when they actually had the chance to stand up for women they chose the sexist douchebag. And of course, it's not only about their sub, this fiasco was all over Catholic media. This is the very uncomfortable and awkward moment when women realize that sexism among churchgoers goes deep.
Edit: Here's the non-participation link [https://np.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/1cs8t82/harrison\_butker\_chides\_catholic\_leaders\_in/](https://np.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/1cs8t82/harrison_butker_chides_catholic_leaders_in/)
Reading it better, it seems 50/50 in terms of support and pushback. The most upvoted posts were in support of it though. This is really embarrassing for all of them, imagine knowing that 50% of your fellow Catholics think that you shouldn't have a career.
Fascinating and eye-opening comments section.
It feels like in general, the people criticizing him are all pointing out specific things (he even appears to criticize NFP at one point), but the ones defending him tend to praise him in more general terms ("standing up for truth", "defending Catholicism against modernity") and avoid actual quotes. Except when they're called out and they try to quote something less-damning in his defense. It's like they've already decided on their narrative, that Butker is the good-guy pillar-of-truth in this situation, and anyone who disagrees must be aligned with people who hate the Church. Those general comments could very well be made by people who haven't even watched the speech.
And it feels like a mirror for what we see between these two subs as well, with people here able to point out lots of specific things and problems with the Church, which Catholics just seem unaware about or unwilling to address. Or hand-waving it away as missteps and lack of context committed by of a supposedly greater good. Instead of the obvious red flags that they are.
This is something I noticed about them years ago. They don’t actually care about truth. They care about a narrative. You can point to as many specific cases of something as you like, each will be ignored in favor of ‘Muh feels.’
Oh they're still getting over the *shock* of the Catholic Church being as actually forced birther as they always said they were. "But *my* priest is okay with me using birth control!"
My experience with catholics is that they talk about love . But practice hatred, sneering, oppression, bullying are inherently narcissistic, cruel.
And unable to accept basic concepts of reality.
For example that priests who molested children are just a few. Not protected by the church hierarchy. Or efforts of external Satanic forces to destroy the church.
I have reached the point where I never expect decency, kindness, politeness, let alone rationality or intelligence from anyone who is a deeply religious Christian.
This doesn't include people who think god might exist. And their are many vulnerable people who have my deep sympathy for being brainwashed, minipulated and preyed on by Catholicism.
Having left the religion 25 years ago what I don't miss are the "social" aspects. What I remember were snobby, pretentious social climbers in the last years I attended in the 1990s. It appears to have gotten worse. It's just that liberals have left the fold but working class people have too. So now it's basically Prosperity Gospel with a crucifix.
Precisely. My parents are in their 90s and as cultural catholics have left the church due to its failures in child abuse hypocrisy.
But still personally believe in their version of christ, and don't understand why Christianity isn't about looking after the poor. Which is how they always saw it. Suposed to be building a community that's looks after its weakest members. Not prey on them.
I'm so happy that even though I went to Catholic high schools, that speech wouldn't have flown. I'm friends with a few of my old teachers who are now in their 70s and 80s, and all of them are posting on Facebook that the speech was dumb.
But still, the Catholic church itself supports way too many beliefs and people that think like Butker. People need to call them out and leave it.
>in their 70s and 80s
Among conservative Catholics the idea that older people are more liberal seems to be common. They have the "spirit of Vatican II" in them and promoted all the liberalism and the changes of the mass in the 70s. And that it's a good thing that they will be replaced soon by a younger, more faithful generation of priests and educators.
I know some friends from a neighboring parish who had their older beloved pastor ordained in the late 1960s recently retire only be replaced by some young reactionary asshole priest fresh from the seminary (you know the type: the weirdo that wears a fucking cassock all the time) they and many others have moved to another local parish because of him who’s gonna listen to a 26 year old petty tyrant who sounds more suited to be a Newsmax anchor?
Most lay Catholics liked V2 and there were some lefty priests and nuns preaching liberation theology and social justice but the Church has never been a bastion of liberalism. The rebels got steadily purged from the ranks. So the clergy of today is what it is and if you're still Catholic you are enabling them.
When I was starting to see the church for what it really is, one of things I thought about was how vocal I am about being a feminist. I realized that I would always be sinning because I believe women should be equal to men and will never change.
When I first heard about this, I thought, what did he say? Then, when I found that, I wondered where he got away with saying that? Then I found out it was at a Catholic college, and it all made sense. As much as the church or church members may outwardly deny it, all he did was say the quiet part out loud, even if it doesn't technically really fit doctrine, there are still far too many people who think his point of view is super valid and correct.
"far right political views being passed off as Catholicism"
Facepalm. You have to be willfully avoiding the entire history of the Church, up until and including recently, to say this. It's an extremely annoying affectation of affluent liberal/moderate Catholics in safe blue urban enclaves, this belief that the Church not meddling in their own private affairs is universal.
Yeah, dummy, they are increasingly influencing Catholic spaces because that's the Church's norm, not the exception.
went to the same church as Butker growing up. met him on multiple occasions. His speech is entirely unsurprising to me, tbh I’m shocked it stayed as tame as it did compared to the other speeches in that church
Hopefully it's a wakeup call that encourages a few women to leave.
Wait, even /r/Catholicism doesn't like the speech?!
No, lol. There are several posts with 100+ upboats supporting the speech. That's why that person in the second pic is complaining. The first pic is from the women's sub. It's really amazing that the general idea in that sub is that "oh yeah Catholic women can do anything, they can work, they have freedom, we are not some dumb evangelicals who want to keep women down". And then when they actually had the chance to stand up for women they chose the sexist douchebag. And of course, it's not only about their sub, this fiasco was all over Catholic media. This is the very uncomfortable and awkward moment when women realize that sexism among churchgoers goes deep. Edit: Here's the non-participation link [https://np.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/1cs8t82/harrison\_butker\_chides\_catholic\_leaders\_in/](https://np.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/1cs8t82/harrison_butker_chides_catholic_leaders_in/) Reading it better, it seems 50/50 in terms of support and pushback. The most upvoted posts were in support of it though. This is really embarrassing for all of them, imagine knowing that 50% of your fellow Catholics think that you shouldn't have a career.
Fascinating and eye-opening comments section. It feels like in general, the people criticizing him are all pointing out specific things (he even appears to criticize NFP at one point), but the ones defending him tend to praise him in more general terms ("standing up for truth", "defending Catholicism against modernity") and avoid actual quotes. Except when they're called out and they try to quote something less-damning in his defense. It's like they've already decided on their narrative, that Butker is the good-guy pillar-of-truth in this situation, and anyone who disagrees must be aligned with people who hate the Church. Those general comments could very well be made by people who haven't even watched the speech. And it feels like a mirror for what we see between these two subs as well, with people here able to point out lots of specific things and problems with the Church, which Catholics just seem unaware about or unwilling to address. Or hand-waving it away as missteps and lack of context committed by of a supposedly greater good. Instead of the obvious red flags that they are.
This is something I noticed about them years ago. They don’t actually care about truth. They care about a narrative. You can point to as many specific cases of something as you like, each will be ignored in favor of ‘Muh feels.’
Oh they're still getting over the *shock* of the Catholic Church being as actually forced birther as they always said they were. "But *my* priest is okay with me using birth control!"
My experience with catholics is that they talk about love . But practice hatred, sneering, oppression, bullying are inherently narcissistic, cruel. And unable to accept basic concepts of reality. For example that priests who molested children are just a few. Not protected by the church hierarchy. Or efforts of external Satanic forces to destroy the church. I have reached the point where I never expect decency, kindness, politeness, let alone rationality or intelligence from anyone who is a deeply religious Christian. This doesn't include people who think god might exist. And their are many vulnerable people who have my deep sympathy for being brainwashed, minipulated and preyed on by Catholicism.
there is no hate like Christian Love^tm
Having left the religion 25 years ago what I don't miss are the "social" aspects. What I remember were snobby, pretentious social climbers in the last years I attended in the 1990s. It appears to have gotten worse. It's just that liberals have left the fold but working class people have too. So now it's basically Prosperity Gospel with a crucifix.
Precisely. My parents are in their 90s and as cultural catholics have left the church due to its failures in child abuse hypocrisy. But still personally believe in their version of christ, and don't understand why Christianity isn't about looking after the poor. Which is how they always saw it. Suposed to be building a community that's looks after its weakest members. Not prey on them.
I'm so happy that even though I went to Catholic high schools, that speech wouldn't have flown. I'm friends with a few of my old teachers who are now in their 70s and 80s, and all of them are posting on Facebook that the speech was dumb. But still, the Catholic church itself supports way too many beliefs and people that think like Butker. People need to call them out and leave it.
>in their 70s and 80s Among conservative Catholics the idea that older people are more liberal seems to be common. They have the "spirit of Vatican II" in them and promoted all the liberalism and the changes of the mass in the 70s. And that it's a good thing that they will be replaced soon by a younger, more faithful generation of priests and educators.
I know some friends from a neighboring parish who had their older beloved pastor ordained in the late 1960s recently retire only be replaced by some young reactionary asshole priest fresh from the seminary (you know the type: the weirdo that wears a fucking cassock all the time) they and many others have moved to another local parish because of him who’s gonna listen to a 26 year old petty tyrant who sounds more suited to be a Newsmax anchor?
I hope the snot-nosed pubescent brownshirts with incense finally drive all the normal people out but what the hell has been taking so long?
Most lay Catholics liked V2 and there were some lefty priests and nuns preaching liberation theology and social justice but the Church has never been a bastion of liberalism. The rebels got steadily purged from the ranks. So the clergy of today is what it is and if you're still Catholic you are enabling them.
This is the Catholic version of the struggle some Evangelicals have with hearing the gospel and thinking Christ sounds like a communist.
I'm sorry, most religions subjugate women. That's why I left religion entirely. That's just the truth of it.
When I was starting to see the church for what it really is, one of things I thought about was how vocal I am about being a feminist. I realized that I would always be sinning because I believe women should be equal to men and will never change.
When I first heard about this, I thought, what did he say? Then, when I found that, I wondered where he got away with saying that? Then I found out it was at a Catholic college, and it all made sense. As much as the church or church members may outwardly deny it, all he did was say the quiet part out loud, even if it doesn't technically really fit doctrine, there are still far too many people who think his point of view is super valid and correct.
"far right political views being passed off as Catholicism" Facepalm. You have to be willfully avoiding the entire history of the Church, up until and including recently, to say this. It's an extremely annoying affectation of affluent liberal/moderate Catholics in safe blue urban enclaves, this belief that the Church not meddling in their own private affairs is universal. Yeah, dummy, they are increasingly influencing Catholic spaces because that's the Church's norm, not the exception.
went to the same church as Butker growing up. met him on multiple occasions. His speech is entirely unsurprising to me, tbh I’m shocked it stayed as tame as it did compared to the other speeches in that church
Actually it is biblical and very traditional. There are people who fought for your rights lady they weren't handed down by the good pope...