People who are df'd are forcefully removed from their entire social circle and support system. Of course, she hasn't seen anyone do well... Thats like saying, "Oh yeah, we chopped off their hands, and they have really shitty penmanship now"... yeah cause you chopped off their fucking hands 😆 🤣 😂 It takes years to recover, decades to rebuild your social circle and support system. Let's not forget that building a support system and social circle is completely different outside the org... You have to do almost zero effort to have support in the org, you have built in "family/friends/help" just by showing up to the kingdom hall. Outside the org, it's mutual interests, hobbies, politics, work, school, networking groups, birthdays, holidays, local community events... its a whole different set of skills to live outside that cult then inside... and you are trying to do all this rebuilding, completely traumatized and abused. It's funny witnesses think leaving the org is the weak thing to do when, in reality, it's the absolute hardest shit to do.

This is spot on!!!! It takes a strong person to leave a cult!!!

This is a perfect analogy. 👌 it takes determined hard work to overcome the injury they have caused.  I needed to read this,  and I'm saving this one for future use.  

Good luck in your recovery, be kind to yourself and give yourself lots of grace. You are strong!

I agree. It’s psychologically damaging. You are removed from your family and friends. You have to act like you’re invisible to everyone for how ever long it takes. Then when you’re reinstated all of a sudden you have people love bombing you saying “hey welcome back! I missed you!”. When you’ve been at the meetings for a year! Sitting right next to these people!! Then you have to just act normal and be happy like they haven’t ignored you for a year!  What kind of craziness is that?! All of this is insane and traumatic to anyone. 

It's absurdity and narcissistic abuse. Loving my fucking nutsack... I DA'd but gods the poor bastards that get Df'd for consensual adult activities or for something ridiculous like smoking. Like, what the actual fuck did they really do wrong to deserve psychological torture for a year? (at minimum)...

The bro that got me going in the door to door work back in 1960s was DFd for smoking ,it damaged him and a lot of people in his circle ,i never liked the DF policy ever ,another friend i helped into the org (unfortunatly) was DF while he was having a mental breakdown ,i never stopped visiting him untill he passed away a few years ago .How does it help a person to cut them off and refuse to speak to them ,its no wonder they dont want to go back ,the latest change in policy is absurd ,you can now say "hi would you like to come to the meeting " ,ridiculous .

Yes I commented on another post about this very thing and I would say most people that was df'ed or even da'ad realize the cult takes everything from you leaves you with nothing rather you stay in or get out .Most will not come back ,alot like myself have resentment and have started a new life outside of the Borg and most are happy I could never ever go back knowing exactly what the trooth is about ,it's a big lie!

Exactly , while they promote this policy im done with it ,ive had elders call at the door saying "just passing ,thought id see how you are " last time i was having a meal ,i told him ,"im not doing anything untill the shunning policy ends ,it is responsible for family break ups and even suicide " i thought there would be some sort of response after he left but heard nothing.

Along with the the covering up of all the CSA inside the Borg is another reason I would not even try to fake going back.

I would not go back because one thing led to another and i discovered they had misled us about the cross, the trinity and other basic doctrines to do with 1914 and other "firm dates" .

No benefit at all to being a JW.

…and the audacity to have a video “experience” to show how to say hello to DF people. Really how to say Hello to another human being, and then ignore them!  PIMI feels “Wow this must be Jehovah directing the wonderful GB.. oh how loving”. Just sick. This is not Christian like and definitely inhumane! I have no words to truly express how I feel for this DF treatment. 

No... they didn't give an example on how to be a prick did they?

Or even “Hi, it’s good to see you” People like to say it’s a blessing that they even do that. But I’m like I’d rather keep being ignored if they’re only going to say a few words to me.

So well said! We are always taught that being DF’d is a loving form of rehabilitation. When in fact, it is an intense form of solitary confinement . One of the most brutal forms of punishment known to mankind.

So right, and the reason some return back to this prison without even realizing that they just didn’t have the tools. Which is why some JW who returned are even stricter in their beliefs than before if they stay

You summed up pretty much everything. It's those who stay who have been weakened by the organization and are husks of humanity, having been bled dry by the organization.

They really do suck all the empathy out of their members. I had people ask me why I left, and as I was trying to keep it simple at the beginning, I told them about ARC, Each one I told, said the same thing... "Did something happen to you? No? Why do you care, Jehovah will take care of those imperfect people." I care motherfuckers cause I'm human and have a heart... and no fucking way should we be waiting on Jehovah to solve child abuse and hiding pedophiles in the org... this isn't imperfect men, this is intentionally not giving a fuck and creating policies to protect abusers. I watched this shit happen personally, I've seen how the org treats abused women & children... the fact sexual abuse didn't happen to me has zero impact on my empathy.

Wow, that's fucking astounding. I've only shown my parents the ARC. My mom refused to watch it because it was somehow "Apostate", and my dad said it "Strengthened his faith".😐 Not joking. Yeah, they have ZERO empathy for others, all they care about is themselves and their "salvation".

Strengthened his faith watching Geoffrey Jackson tell the world that the org doesn't have the only link to God... some delusional shit 🙄... confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance is a real bitch ain't it.

They sure are. We just didn't have the words when he told us that. I've come to terms that my parents are dead and replaced with flesh zombies controlled by this cult.

Remote controlled husks

👆👆👆👆this

My life in every single aspect improved. My 2 sons who left one did well until he died of cancer. The other son is still trying to figure it out with life.

Same, I struggle like everyone is in this crazy ass world... but my life is way better out. Now I don't have to deal with dipshits asking me why I allow my wife to travel for work, hang out with other men, and *gasp* wear clothing that gives me a boner 🤣

Great comment!

Right on point. It's hard but I'm enjoying my life now. I have joy when I wake up. So many new things to experience...

Not anymore in my Opinion maybe a decade or so ago. Now everyone is pretty fake from my experience. They are friendly and act Like they love you at meetings but only invite you to group activities and never really get super personal anymore and become part of your family like they used to. My experience in west coast and east coast so far.

This right here!!👆🏻 I fully got out back in 2019. And it’s taken me up until the last year of 2 to have a better social life. And over the years since I left, I’ve built a better support system with family that I didn’t really associate with when I was a witness.

THANK YOU! Wonderful response. I could not have said it any better.

Preach

Hey spinach, You made some great points to her, and it’s good that you felt safe to do so. To think about: I know a lot of people who leave and deepen their spirituality, but in the end that isn’t the point. Jehovah ( or whatever you call the Abrahamic God) says quite literally that he loves a cheerful giver. If you are forced to stay or lose everyone you love, that isn’t cheerful giving. If that person leaves JW and totally loses faith, you can look at it in two way from a general christian standpoint: A: They weren’t called to faith and so it was never fair to demand they give faith to begin with. B: This religion stumbled them so deeply that they don’t want religion, as a result can’t cheerfully give. “But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith, it would be better for him if a millstone that is turned by a donkey were put around his neck and he were pitched into the sea.” - mark 9:42 I personally don’t really live by that anymore, I’ve grown in my own faith and while I don’t identify as anything except a hopeful agnostic, coming from a witness mindset I can look back and see how flawed our approach to obedience was compared to what general Christianity or Progressive churches taught. I hope you can engage with more of the community and understand people who may not continue as a witness or a Christian, or even become atheist. Like I said in our previous conversation, there are a lot of hurt people on here, so the negativity can seem very loud at first. But there’s a lot of positivity, first birthdays, families reunited, people taking on new faiths, new baptisms, activism for the rights of children, there’s a lot of good here. Edit : sorry for terrible formatting, mobile

Yea that’s true, thanks for your solid points! Personally I think I am also like you, a hopeful agnostic. If you don’t mind me asking, why is it that you don’t believe in the Bible?

I think it’s a bit simplistic to say I don’t believe in the Bible, I think it’s more accurate to say that I don’t believe in it the way we grew up expected to believe in it. I read myself out of staunch belief around 20. For me, reading the main holy books of world religions had a huge impact on me. I love learning and hearing about others faith, and often found myself getting in trouble because in the ministry I would ask more questions instead of actually preaching. The Epic of Gilgamesh predating the Biblical flood story was a big thing for me, as well as learning that the New Testament laws weren’t so unique, that they were similar to other political and social rules in the near east, like : Code of Hammurabi (Babylon, 1754 BCE): This legal code shares similarities with biblical laws regarding social justice, business, and family. Laws of Eshnunna (Mesopotamia, circa 1900 BCE): These laws cover topics like criminal justice, marriage, and business, showing parallels with Israelite laws. The Laws of Lipit-Ishtar (Sumeria, circa 1930 BCE): These laws deal with social hierarchy, family, and business, displaying similarities with biblical laws. Hittite Laws (Anatolia, circa 1600 BCE): These laws cover topics like criminal justice, family, and social hierarchy, showing similarities with Israelite laws. — As well as learning about the 42 laws of Ma’at which may have influenced Moses in the creation of the 10 commandments. (Argued as a fact by some Afrocentrists but still heavily debated overall) I also enjoy reading biblical criticism, and authors like Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, also really enjoyed reading books by Bart Ehrman, and if you were to start anywhere, I would suggest reading his work. I see the Bible as a flawed and beautiful thing, that has a lot of changes over the centuries. It’s had so much cultural exchange with other books and religions that we’re only just starting to understand where everything in it came from. and yet I still read it nearly every day. All of its conflicts and ugliness makes it a very imperfect book that I can still read and reason on as an agnostic. Hope that wasn’t too long 😅 Edit: again, sorry for the icky mobile formatting I tried

It was very long but I am a nerd for historical books that predate the Bible. The only problem I have with Epic of Gilgamesh is that the complete story we have was written after the Bible. Which may or may not mean it got inspiration from the Bible instead. Especially when referring to the snake, fruit of life, etc. I will look to other works that you have mentioned as I have not read about them before.

The complete Epic of Gilgamesh was compiled long before the bible though. The earliest poems about the Gilgamesh flood myth are from around 2000 B.C.E. and the Atra-Hasis which is another mesopotamian flood myth dates from the 17th century B.C.E., again well before Genesis is thought to have been compiled (6th century B.C.E).

I think the issue was the complete Gilgamesh story was not compiled until after the Bible. I would have to make sure though

Well I guess there's a question about what counts as a complete version. The oldest combined version of the epic is from the 18th century b.c.e. and a later standard version dates from sometime in the 13th-10th centuries b.c.e. In either case this is older than when the earliest forms of book of Genesis are thought to have existed. In either case I would say that it's sort of irrelevant when you would say that a 'complete' version of the epic of Gilgamesh was written. What is relevant in this case is that the story of the flood in that epic is much older than the epic which, in turn, is older than the bible. I really recommend looking into scholarly opinions on when the Bible was written because it sort of does run counter to what we were taught to believe about its authorship. In fact, even though we were taught that the first five books of the Bible were written by Moses, there is both evidence within them that they had to at least have been edited at a much later time, and furthermore, the books themselves make no claim to have been written by Moses. I hope this helps :)

Awesome thanks, I was doing research and reading the book, it had a lot of things similar to The Bible.

Yes ,yes and yes so glad there's people like you that does the study of history not just take what is written in the bible as absolute truth .Love Bart Erham .

Very interesting stuff. I always find this bible story quite intetesting: Abraham came from the land of Ur. That is a Sumerian city. Abraham is a Sumerian, all his cultural roots will be sumerian. The early Sumerian gods were circumsized. To look like the gods, you had to be circumsized. Hmmm? I guess that was why it was the basis of Yahweh's covenant!

I love this reply. I've been thinking lately on my faded husband how he wants nothing to do with anything about God/history or to seek out anything. I see the damage they have done. I'm sad because I love to deep dive into dark church history, debunking creation scientists with the Greek Septuagint, finding the root of doctrines and mythology, and comparing it to the bible and other writings. I love it, I love my God, and i love the hunt. But i have to remember, I went through a different journey to get where I'm at today, where challenging the bible, men and their doctrine, is now a sport. What I think we should be doing with everything and everybody, not just religion. I guess it is like a "calling," and I realized... being in any church, especially high control religion, it really stifles that even happening. Or wanting it to happen. Once I hit JW with deep dives and research, his true feelings finally came out about the borg when I started bringing what I was finding out up, in the midst of trying to rekindle a relationship with his pimi family. It sucked, but I get it. Sucks because he's good at research, too, and I'd love our brains in on this seeking stuff together, like we seemed to enjoy before all this. But he can't peel cult thought/personality off when we do, and he hates it since we added family to the mix. We were having such fun too, till I put the bulls eye on jw. He came out with, he never had faith, and he needed science to back it up, and I'm down with that. But then he came out with he really doesn't give a crap about any of this, and it's between him and what higher power is out there. I get that, too. And I realize his heart wasn't into it, and then I felt bad because you're not supposed to be forced into this, and that's the last thing i wanted for him to do, especially by me. But now I'm in the middle of this purpose, and my buddy tapped out, and I feel like researching JW backfired. At the same time, I'm grateful. We got to the point he admits they're a cult and he hates what it does to him when his pimi family comes to visit, since he slips back into it and finds himself fighting with me for no reason to back up the cult. He realizes we need boundaries with his family, no Jehovah talk, which i can't stand anyway. But also, now we need boundaries with one another, so I don't make him feel as he did in JW. I didn't realize I'd deconstruct my own husband, and I have some guilt. So I backed off as much as possible while living in the same space, and it might be working... He slowly wants to hear things I've found on JW and wants to eventually read all my research I've been building up when I'm done organizing it all. But no study together, no youtube(anything to do with God or bible) or history book reading anymore or side conversations. However, it was nice to hear he trusts me because he knows how indepth I go and how not once with what I've learned about JW have I bit him. He can see I'm truly worried and care. When he's going cult rabid on me, he sees I do my best to ease the moment, not put more fire onto it. He also can't help but realize I have really good points that he's never been challenged by(doctrine wise), and he appreciates and respects my knowledge. He'll even back me up against his pimi mom, that I'm not stupid and know my crap. She thinks she's a literal genius, so if I stumble my words, she thinks I have no idea what I'm talking about, till my husband rewords it and then it's a slap in her face. Which...he kind of enjoys. I just hope one day I can have my research study buddy back, but as one who understands the passion and loves the hunt just as much with his whole heart and soul. But they really take that out of you and make you worship in vain. That sort of calling has to be natural. It can not be forced. They really are doing major damage to these people. Like leading them to hopefully deconstruct 100% or be led into another cult if they leave like narcissistic supply falling into another abusive relationship. Anyway, sorry it's long. I'm just trying to figure this out for us.

It's called Religious Trauma Syndrome and it's not unlike PTSD. Plenty of it in this subreddit. Hope you can respect his boundaries as he continues to heal.

Yeah, that makes sense. And of course, he's my husband and best friend, he would do the same for me. This subreddit has helped me understand him more and why I'm here. I just want him to feel safe. Thank you 💖

True

Who’s to say how people connect with their own spirituality Anyone who makes peace with who they are, how they connect to the world around them and their own mortality as a human is way more spiritually sound than people who live in willful blindness and delusions devoid of their own humanity such as in a cult. Since leaving, I deconstructed first the beliefs, then the Bible, then religion in general. For awhile I just sat with just being until eventually my own natural sense of spirituality arose and manifests in how I live day to day. Since leaving I am more thoughtful, more ethical while being realistic and reasonable, less judgmental and more intrinsically moral and still consider I am a work in progress.

I think this is an important point, from a witness perspective, even changing denominations is spiritual death. You can connect with spirituality in so many ways outside of religion, but of course a witness would never be caught dead admitting that.

I worked with a man who absolutely loved fly fishing. He would wade out into shallow streams and just spend all day doing that. He referred to it as his worship and the great outdoors as the temple he worshipped in. At that time, I thought he was a bit daft for thinking that way. Now, though, I realize he was onto something.

Amen 🙏

What the organisation does is likened to a person being force fed 'H' drugs untill they willingly take it after being indoctrinated to believe its good for them. Then when they are completley addicted snd if they make a mistake they remove the drug and force the person into cold turkey rapid detox without the support and tools in which to survive without the constant reinforcement of the mental and emotional indoctrination drug. The organisation starves them of love, support network, social network and in many cases financial support and employability. They set people up to FAIL in the outside world and then force them to beg to return.

Yes I agree, I’m still figuring out if they do it on purpose? Or it’s a by product of a terrible decision

Of course it's done on purpose. The GB knows what they're doing, they're not good people

Very good analogy.

Also there are plenty of very happy exjws. Just because they refuse to see it doesn’t change anything. Lol

virtually everybody leaves to improve their spirituality... we may not know it at the time, and it sure as shit isn't announced as that... but in the long run, it turns out to be the case.

Also, how would she know when they're not allowed to communicate with anyone who has left? I'm doing so much better since leaving, but my family and former friends would never know it.

Hang on there soldier 😄 After the initial absolute shell shock of losing everyone you've loved... it absolutely does get better. Or at least it has for me. It took time, but everything is pretty wonderful out here. It's been 19 years since I got Dfd (at 19 years old) and I genuinely only think about it now when a notification pops up on reddit that someone's having a crisis and wants some help. You can leave and be happy. Start a family, be happy in your career and shiny new friend groups. You can travel the world with your own conscience, not someone else's and thrive. Listen to music that actually resonates with you, fall in love and express yourself without inhibitions. I promise, jump in the waters lovely.

how are you supposed to know how they are, if you arent allowed to talk to them? what basis has this claim? i remember the sentence on som conventions i guzess it was some old GB members words: " when you find something better, show me, but never ever anyone came back to me to show me something better than this organisation ". even as PIMI i thought that this is bullocks, if you refuse to listen to them because they are DF DA or whatever. How are they suppose to tell you? what is the metric for a happy live? how spiritual you are? than by this metrics only JWs can be happy. if i measure it by the antidepressants and medics for mental well being, than JWs are within the worst and unhappy people i know. what is the true religion? according to JWs pamphlet about their organisation it needs to use Jehovah as Gods name and have a Governing Body. than tell everyone that this is the quality metric and JWs that never knew something else will nod their heads. meanwhile if you change the metrics like that you need to accept Jesus as your mediator between you and God, and so on, than JWs would fail. see how the prebias from the org tells what to think feel and do, because all else is wrong and so on? thats why JWs often think that people that left are unhappy. meanwhile they havent spoken a word to them, put a blindeye on the failures of other JWs and frame every single mistake or unhappy timeline of an exJW as "this is his whole miserable life, see how it is without the org". meanwhile ignore all the happy moments and the accomplishments.

I left because I was losing my faith..

>I’m sure people who left didn’t understand how hard it would be on them emotionally until after a few weeks or months where reality sets in, You gotta count the cost. Yeah, it hurts to leave. Depending on the person and situation it takes time to heal. But considering the alternative, what choice do you have? Do you want to spend your few years on this earth peddling and promoting something you don't believe in? Lying to your friends and family about your true beliefs? Living your life under their oppressive rules? Sounds worse than making a clean break, healing, and moving on with your life. It's been 7 years for me, and there were some hard times. But I can say I am much happier and healthier than I was when I was a JW. edit to add: Maybe I'm not doing well spiritually according to JW theology, but I am doing much better spiritually. I have a more open mind, more compassion and empathy for people, am more in touch with my own emotions. I no longer have to reject spiritual ideas that don't jive with the strict and myopic JW viewpoint. I borrow a little bit from Buddhism, Christianity, philosophy, among other things, for my own personal spiritual viewpoint. It's more well rounded than the edicts of some old men in upstate NY.

I faded without much of a problem because the family I left there didn't care much about me and my mother (she was terminally Ill with a heart condition and I had to take care of her on my own while still working in order to provide for us). After she died I started fading, and during the pandemic I cut them off entirely. I can say I got it easy. Sadly, others have a big battle on their hands.

As a woman herself, your sister may have heard of men that love bomb a woman, make her feel like she's the only girl he loves in the world, get into her heart, then encourage her to end long lasting friendships and family relationships outside of their direct relationship. Singling her off to relying solely on him. Your sis would have to ask herself, if that man were to abandon such a woman, how would she fair? Could not even her faithfulness result in a strong trial? If her friends and family took offence at how once she met a dude, she abandon them, could she rightfully expect they will support her after? This is not much different than anyone who goes super deep and follows every single rule. (Doesn't take up higher education, doesn't build for retirement, and much more) Like you told her the "Borg practically makes it where you depend on them for everything." >**Side Note:** Meanwhile they have a whole legal department to protect their appearance. Each lawyer they have would have some form of higher education. Their COs, DOs, GB and more non-rank and file will retire into homes provided by the organization. Not so much for Bethelites. So if anyone who actually depended fully on them stepped away, she or he would suffer pains as if the world were collapsing and depending on how they fall away, they may lose all those new friendships (if any, personally I haven't developed any friendships and I've been in for a lot of years and was initially pretty extroverted and was kind to everyone O.O), jobs (if they work for Witnesses who don't observe the laws about discrimination), homes (if they live with a Witnesses or can't pay rent due to having a job with one lost), and so much more. All these losses would appear as if they lost God's favor, but that can't be proven because their whole support system can be consider quite similar to the relationships mentioned above that we consider abusive in todays world. He'd be able to say of his woman, with big confidence, that she'd suffer much pain and lost if he were to abandon her or she abandon him. His predictions is like that of a fortune teller, all he needed was a few details to make a very likely and believable guess, yet any man/woman who paid close attention would have been able to predict the same outcome and have a 99.99% success rate. When things are broken down like this, the possibilities are endless and scary. Some are disfellowshipped for sins they weren't good at showing repentance for just simply over having a flat personality (but may have actually been repentant), others stay in who weren't at all repentant but knew how to play the part and trick Samuel in Bethlehem as it were, and some just simply because they no longer trust parts of the doctrine and had the guts to say something. Each person becoming separate in anyway will be treated exactly the same, just depending on how they pain some may suffer more than others. All in all to this statement “I haven’t seen anyone leaving the organization being able to live happy after they left. Everyone I know who got Dfed is doing worse spiritually.” I say, in order for this to be true, you'd have to do 2 things * Assume they were happy prior (which I seem to rarely be actually happy and most fake it) * Assume their personal spirituality, but in reality, no one at the time knew how much Manasseh was petitioning God. Only he and God knew.

Love your two points at the end, those are two assumptions that would need to be made and we really don’t know.

It is self fulfilling prophesy for them, "Look, you left and I shunned you and treated you like trash. You lost your family, friends, social circle, and we treat you like your dead. See, I told you, you are worse spiritually!" What a joke! Of course people that leave can be depressed, lost, and struggling but it is not for the reasons they claim such as losing so called spirituality. Many are happy and do better spiritually despite the negative emotions. Their definition and version of "spirituality," as they are constantly repeating, is not the true meaning. Their definition is blind obedience to a so called religion managed by a bunch of arrogant fools who demand all sacrifice in their name... The Governing Body and Faithful Slave. Their spirituality is bound by law and required deeds for salvation which is contrary to the teachings of Christ. Die on this hill, it is worth it. If you have not lost your faith, seriously read the Bible and don't read the NWT. You will find peace and true family and friendship out there!

>_“I haven’t seen anyone leaving the organization being able to live happy after they left."_ "Watch me." "If you shun those who leave, how are you supposed to ever know when someone does well?" "No one in this cult would ever admit that someone who left is doing well."

Doing worse “spiritually” is such a convenient, and unreasonable caveat. How does a JW define spirituality? Their spirituality is exclusively defined by how much someone appears to be a JW. So someone can look healthier, feel happier, be more financially stable, emotionally at peace with a richer, more meaningful social and romantic life, but of course, they are suffering spiritually because they don’t “look” or speak like a JW and they don’t attend meetings. What a desperate and pathetic cope. “Suffering spiritually” is a goal post pushed into the furthest depths away from reality that it can indefinitely protect a sensitive little pimi’s feelings.

I agree on this, when my JW friends tell me why I don’t do more. I simply tell them I haven’t been happier or at peace like I am right now. Being a pioneer was stressful, and the reward was not there for me.

Yeah, I pioneered for 7 years, and when I decided to stop, my friends were actually mad at me. Like what, you expected me to do this forever?

Only did 2 years, thank god

Who is/was it we were supposed to depend upon? It started out being Jesus followers, not followers of the leaders of the organization. That is exactly why getting out is the smart thing to do if you desire to serve Jesus. He doesn't abandon. We abandoned him. "I am the way, the truth and the life" "Do not put your trust in nobles nor the son of man". You don't have to leave and be lost. Leaving is the first step in finding the truth.

This scripture has been repeated by The Organization so much that they’ve totally separated themselves from it. It’s only applied to everyone else.

I would personally contend why a person’s “spirituality” which is strictly defined as their attendance at meetings, field service and commenting at meetings is the barometer of a person’s worth and the measure of success. I know that this itself is part of the argument against leaving but for many spirituality itself is not an integral part of their lives anymore. Largely because of nonbelief or a form of spirituality that is itself deemed less than or as contemptuous. So I would argue that the entire supposition that one must leave and reach out for such a thing however it is defined to be ridiculous and itself prejudicial.

Eccl 12:13- fear the true god and keep his commandments. This is the WHOLE obligation of man This is the measure of spirituality. JWs definition typically is based on WT expectations.

The definition they peddle around is “View things how Jehovah does” but that could mean many things

What does Jehovah say about “higher education” for example? How about birthdays? How about oral sex? The answer is nothing. Therefore they are following the teachings of men, not god.

Do you have an article about oral sex? Don’t think I’ve heard about that anywhere 😅

https://preview.redd.it/y4bud7bxg49d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d10c9690855bcbb5e54329f3691de04c32742344 “Perverted sex within the marriage” 😱

Yup you got me there

Yes, but they use him as a mascot, like Uncle Sam or Lady Liberty. What they really mean is, “View things how the gb does.”

Agree

Good point. The Organization equates this scripture with everything they wish and do.

Yeah I heard the same about me and I resented it for a long time. It's based on two wrong conclusions: "Everyone who leaves is worse off" and "every who stays is happy!" Neither are true. Speaking for myself, my life is better in every way since I left (probably not health: I'm fatter. But happier!) And you know, I am much more mature now too, though I had a LONG way to go after I left. One quick point though: "Normal life?" What is that? No one lives that.

Something to remember is that this is not a group of embittered, disfellowshipped people. Many decided to leave because "Not being true" is a good enough reason to leave on is own. In fact, we expected that of everyone else. You may, or may not, be ready to look at all of the readily verifiable evidence (in the real world) that is outside of the prescribed information they give you, but I'd be willing to help should you ever decide that actual truth trumps blind loyalty. Or if you just want answers without anything being unsolicited. I'm sure many here would as well. Red or blue pill... it's up to you.

I’m ready, give me the damn pill

How well do you know the overall doctrine?

Pretty well

We also technically, yet currently, believe in evolution on a scale that would baffle any scientist. It's in the Insight Book.

If I'm going too far or it seems like I'm saying something without evidence, please let me know. I have no problem with that.

You know how they get to 1914, which is the backbone of the entire religion and their claim to authority?

607 is the day, but in reality it was destroy in 587. I know that much. Anything else?

Well, 606 to be accurate. They counted wrong in the first place. They included the year zero which doesn't exist.

Ahh ok yea that makes sense, they could mental gymnastics with that though. Claiming that a dethroning ok a king can be considered the beginning of the destruction of Jerusalem or whatever

Two things with that though, the calculation should not have been off if Holy Spirit was leading them to that conclusion. And if the number is off you would change the end date, not the beginning date. On top of both numbers being wrong, lol.

Did you know that this calculations came from the pyramids in Giza? And that he explicitly said Armageddon would be over by the fall of 1914.

How so? Wasn’t it explained biblically?

https://preview.redd.it/eglnhb5a869d1.jpeg?width=719&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=86664860df6435f4913096a6e54e505282f18861 From one of his first books, The Divine Plan of the Ages. Not to mention his first predictions were of the rapture happening back in the 1800s.

A clearer image... https://images.app.goo.gl/BoB1BWbLrVi64WWKA

The next major prophecy was that things would end in 1925, which is around the time "Judge" Rutherford had a mansion built that he lived in with 2 Cadillacs... during the Great Depression no less. He did very well for himself by means of the organization.

It's almost as if people doing poorly after leaving the community is a feature of the community itself. You are made to solely depend on the community for everything, of course when you leave you're miserable. That's why it's so important to set up an escape plan, which includes some sort of support on the outside. Leaving any religion is traumatic, leaving a high control group can be even more painful. Be safe out there guys and escape from the Tower!

There’s a big difference in being asked to leave and leaving on your terms, and that’s what being disfellowshipped and fading is. I got disfellowshipped and then eventually reinstated and then I faded on my terms. And I’m very happy with how I did it. It’s takes time and effort to overcome the conditioning but it’s rewarding when it finally happens.

Smart move

Thank you, this episode stems from my attitude that no one tells me me I’m not cool enough to be in your club, I’ll decide if your club is cool enough for me, and it’s turns out that the Org is definitely not cool enough for me. 🖕🏽🖕🏽🖕🏽🖕🏽 Borg!!!

Those of us who stayed out long enough to rebuild our lives are doing quite well thank you.

The \*\*\*elder\*\*\*\* who held the door wide open for me to leave, told me verbatim that he had seen "people leave and go on to live amazing lives". And that is exactly what I did!

Wow he was a PIMO 😅

I think he is...and he cannot leave because of his family. Heck...he may even be here! LOL

Lol you never know, that’s not something a JW sheep would say at all. How was he as an elder?

He actually was a very good friend! He was encouraging me because I was at my wits end. He said it in the middle of the standard “read your Bible, pray to Jehovah, go to your meetings…blah blah blah.” It shocked me, but I heard it. And because of him, I left immediately. I’m sure he can see my life because I never hid when I left, and yes…I’m living extremely well, and I thank him tremendously for what he said!

"Doing worse spiritually" ...is a meaningless phrase. The people who leave want nothing to do with the "spirituality" Watchtower has on offer.

It hasn't even happened to me yet. But I'm ready. And I'll happily leave behind everyone who doesn't truly love me for me, even family.

A religious person (eg.JW ) does what they are told to do despite what is right. A spiritual person does what is right despite what they are told to do Jesus said “ Happy are those conscious of their Spiritual need ( not their religious eg. WT need )

Very good point.

Adam was apparently a hermaphrodite, and evolution on a grand scale that would baffle any scientific evolutionist (this is still the current belief btw)

I left in the first place because I felt trapped, like a caged animal. Im now being my authentic self. I really don't care anymore if I'm perceived as spiritual enough, I've moved on from being obsessed with what others think of me. Being true to myself and being a good person is most important to me. I felt like a shell of a person as a JW. I also left because I was tired of how mean and cliquey people were. JWs are some of the most cruel people I've ever known

Of course they say that. That's what everyone is told to think. Life is how you make it. "She doesn't know anyone that's doing good?" Of course, they shun who leave, so they can't see. You will miss your friends and family, but life is great being done and out of the cult

I actually think most people that leave, like truly leave mentally ARE doing better spiritually. Whether they are Atheists, Catholics, Buddhists, Witches, as long as they aren't in some other cult (like our Mormon cult-cousins) they are most definitely doing better spiritually.

They dont know what feelings are.. theyve been told that emotions are a sin for so long they confuse feelings with unrepentance

I think I agree with this, but I’m having a little trouble processing that last part: “they confuse feelings with unrepentance.” Could you please explain for me?

Being rightfully upset about a situation or circumstance and because they (the elders) lack the ability to listen and comprehend someones feelings theie knee jerk reaction is 'oh you're unrepentant'

Got it. Yes, that can be a real problem. 

Got it. Thanks for explaining that. 

Looks like someone just went through exactly what Im talking about (the Elder's knee jeek reaction went IMMEDIATELY to 'yOu MuSt Be BiTtEr' 🫠🫠🫠) [Socially Awkward Elders](https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/s/HR34DP2Xfn)

I agree with you 100%-- life was eally difficult when I left, but that's not because the world is so bad, it's because i had been so isolated i was unprepared for life. I was denied normal socual interaction, homeschooled without friends , with serious indoctrination happening every single day. Even when I was smoking Crack, or doing sexual favors for my rent money, was my life really 'worse" than wanting to die.every day as an active jw? It's a constant struggle to catch up, I was already delayed mentally and emotionally because of my background, and some of the choices I made to just numb out and not deal with things delayed me even more. One of the reasons I visit this site is to tel people to not make the same mistakes I did 20 years ago. So much would be different if i could start all over again.

Tell that person they can talk to me !! That we are what unhappy??! hahaha 😂 No people I’m alive and finally living not just surviving .. thanks for Defending us..

The ones who leave and do well, don’t look back. They aren’t going to be talking to anyone from their past life about how they are doing. If a witness does find out they are doing well, it’s because Satan has blessed them. If they are doing well spiritually, the witnesses can’t see it because they think they have a monopoly on a relationship with God.

This is why I compare being in a cult or being a JW to being in an abusive relationship. They traumatize you and blame you. They deliberately ruin a big part of your life and want to see you burn to the ground so you’ll come crawling back to them because YOU NEED THEM. If you don’t receive therapy after trauma, it can cause a lot of problems in your life. And to be blamed for those problems instead of validating their concerns is toxic and emotionally abusive. Whether it intentionally or due to brain wash, still the same effect. Abusers train their “flying monkeys” to defend them and their good side and shame you for leaving and talking bad about them. Same goes for JWs. They are the flying monkeys of the BORG.

Take care of yourself first. Work on building a new life outside ofJW world. Just imagine if you will, you have been isolated in comatose condition not knowing one damn thing about how to live a genuine meaningful life apart from the religion. Lots of good advice on this site and others in just how to come out of the religious coma. Don't tell anyone else other than your sibling you might or, are planning to leave. You don't owe anyone an explanation. Start your wake up process slowly. You will be pleased to find out the oppressive dangerous world around you is not what you have been taught. People really do have happy and healthy lives without being stuck in a JW coma.

How to survive after leaving JW-land? Commit to get some therapy to replace the JW beliefs with healthy, life-affirming beliefs. JW-land sets members up to self-destruct when they leave. Watchtowerland would love to see you fail. But you don't have to buy into their hurtful beliefs. Just coming to that realization helped me commit to changing my beliefs by picking them apart until they dissolve into nothingness. I journaled all my progress and talked to my therapist to refine my thinking. My life is much happier as an exjw. Sending you love and healing vibes, u/Born-Spinach-7999 .

Although I agree when leaving df'd or not it's hard to refocus and begin a life without everything you know. Taking that first step is the start to realizing that a relationship with God if you so choose is yours and no one else allowed to ruin it. So if people on the inside believe that none of us on the outside have no spiritually well I'm here to tell you that's false! Also finding your footing is tough but shortly you realize that the evil worldly people are actually more real and not as fake as those on the inside! Thank you for protecting us however be sure to protect yourself until you decide to leave the confines on the inside! 🥰

Thanks I appreciate it! Yea it’s a hard decision to make for me since all my social life revolves around them. I know once I leave I won’t really have the motivation to go out

I understand 

>She said “I haven’t seen anyone leaving the organization being able to live happy after they left. Everyone I know who got Dfed is doing worse spiritually.” That\`s Just Stupid.......What Is the "ONLY" Way To Do Well Spiritually, in WBT$ / JW World? Provide Free Labour For the WBT$, Participate in WBT$ Activities and Support every Crazy Ass, Ever Changing WBT$ Story Line... *None of that has anything to do with Being Spiritual.......Calling Something by Another Name, Doesn\`t make it Anything other than what it is....OR...Make You Spiritual..* ***Example:*** # This IS a CHICKEN! https://preview.redd.it/einprqn5m49d1.jpeg?width=200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=70448f1aa78e3908a6f43c50780fd5c971146ebd # If You Agree, You Are SPIRITUAL!...😀

Of course she has not seen anyone live amazing lives after they leave, because it's simply not part of her own awareness. Her mind is saturated with the \*idea\* that you will suffer after you leave. In essence she is confirming what can happen to former members if they do not completely integrate the experience, and some former members are unconsciously holding the idea that they will continually suffer(self-fulfilling prophecy). It's right there in your last paragraph. In truth there are countless former members out here living their best lives. And they do not identify as JWs/ExJW, because they have done the deep work to move through the experience and self-actualize. If she were to cross paths with these amazing human beings she'd be shocked to discover they were once JWs.

Shout out to all exJWs. Not easy to leave and survive under these circumstances.

Their definition of  being spiritual is going to meetings, service,and answering.How is that spiritual in any way?

It's significantly easier to leave when you have social connections outside of TheBOrg. If your social group is large, it feels like moving departments at work. The Borg literally does everything to take up your time and dissuade you from social support, even family.

 How hard did they look for evidence? I’d say hardly.

Yeah I don’t need anyone to ‘defend’ me from a jw I never have and never will meet. That’s a pretty odd way to think.

You should show her the psychology studies on the damages of shunning/ostracism.

You got a link?

I'm sure there's an article for that 🤣

We do “worse off” when we leave the community because we have been isolated from reality. We don’t regular life skills we need to grow. We are suppressed from interests and hobbies. Many of us have a hard time learning to make healthy relationships and friendships because all we know is dysfunction which makes us easy targets. Many of us are talked out of having an education or career. Plus our families punish us for leaving and emotionally blackmail us. So of course many people who exit have a difficult time. I spent almost ten years undoing the damage this organization caused me. But I rather go through growing pains than be there.

What’s doing worse spiritually mean? There is no such thing as spiritually. It’s not like doing well or bad financially, which is a real thing.

I guess like not reading the Bible as much as before, or preaching the word, etc.

The GB expect strict forced estrangement whether you want to or not. They don't care if it's your Mother, Father, son, daughter, Grandmother. If they are DF, you are expected to block them from your social media and never see them again. I hope the governments of the whole world read this comment and this entire thread.

Arguably depends on your definition of spirituality. I learned far more after I left than I ever did in, and what I found what that I don’t believe in any of it for the most part. That said I’d classify myself as more of a humanist if anything. Some argue that is spiritual in its own way.

>doing worse spiritually is this supposed to be bad? their concept of spirituality is not connection with god, but slavery to an organisation, total submission, absolute enthousiasm.

Luckily I met people and began a new life very quickly after leaving. Yes, of course it hurts when family and old friends ignore you. My view was they weren’t really friends and as for family love will win out and if it doesn’t it just shows how vile that organisation is. I am the better person x

If your mind is about to explode due to the controlling nature of The Organization while you’re IN, that couldn’t be a source of true happiness. So I wouldn’t even entertain anyone in The Organization telling me that I wouldn’t be happy if and when I left. These phrases that they spew out are just conclusions, blanket statements. They just repeat them over and over again to make them believable. In general they wouldn’t be able to see thus prove how a person’s living.

Never been doing better spiritually. But since the jw definition of spirituality is being loyal to an organization, everyone who stops that fit their narrative