Hell I was engaged and getting married a week later at 22 and someone had a hair up their ass and we got talked to about holding hands and sitting next to each other. Like person we are grown ass adults who have done everything right and getting married next week and you have an issue. Also my PIMI sister in law who is annoying got in trouble and got married like three days earlier then she was supposed to and not one person said a word, because she was annoying. She did all kinds of bad shit but never got DFd or reproved cuz she was annoying. It was and is so frustrating. People are ridiculous.
I once had a PIMI pioneer bf, I was PIMI pioneer too, and the elders in his cong had an issue with us travelling in the same car together _with other people_. But we could sit together at the hall. However for the assembly, we were allowed to travel together with others in the same car, _but not allowed to sit together_. I was 19. Same elders for both different decisions. -. -
Lmao kinda reminds me of the time when I went to assembly and sat next to one of my guy friends who was like a brother to me and I was soo tired and bored that I rested my head on his shoulder to take a nap for like 2 mins *gasp!* and afterwards I guess an uuuuber pimi and also antivaxer/health nut came up to his mother (who was also sitting right next to us who didn't have a problem) and started saying how it wasn't proper and that people might get the wrong idea and was basically spitting. So his mom came up to me and basically said to not do anything to ruin his chances of becoming an MS 🙄 this was the same woman I treated as a second mom when my mom was in jail AND who asked me (after being dfd for like 4 months) to walk her dog for her because no one else in the family could and I had a key to her house still. Never talked to me again except last year to ask me to go to memorial....
I still don't get the biblical backing for this outlandish nonsense. We don't have to apologize when we screw up?? Like. The fuck??? Why would you even say that out loud? What other proof do you need that the power and celebrity has clearly gone to these delusional tool's heads?
So don't expect one ,when it's a personal matter to get blood or talk to a family member or friend, because shunning will be classified as wicked in the future not to long,.it's dated and cruel,and to let a child die over a misunderstanding on pouring blood to the ground, will be changed to a personal matter, of course legally they will be upheld human rights violations, on blood transfusion issues,
Should not the scripture they use for disfellowshipped and disassociated ones also be left up to the individual conscience? No where in Bible is it mentioned to form a committee of men and decide if a person needs disfellowshipped. If so why wasn’t David in the Bible who purposely committed adulterous affair and plotted to kill the husband disfellowshipped and shunned. How about Peter he denied Jesus three times and he didn’t get disfellowshipped and shunned. Wouldn’t that almost be the same as talking against.
Your point about individual conscience regarding disfellowshipping and disassociation is quite insightful. I have been thinking about a possible strategy behind recent changes in how the organization handles marking individuals. Here’s my hypothesis on the gradual decentralization approach:
The organization will shift the responsibility of marking individuals from elders to individual members. This allows them to claim that marking someone as bad association is a personal choice, not an enforced policy.
I suspect that similar changes could be applied to disfellowshipping. By putting the responsibility on individual members to decide whether to associate with disfellowshipped individuals, the organization can distance itself from accusations of systematic shunning.
Even with these decentralized decisions, the organization would likely continue to stress the importance of avoiding bad associations through teachings and indirect instructions. This would ensure that the practical outcome remains the same, with social control effectively maintained within the community.
By gradually shifting these responsibilities, the organization can argue that any social exclusion is a matter of personal choice rather than a direct mandate. This could be a strategic move to navigate legal challenges while still upholding their practices.
Yes I totally agree with this , exactly what they will do concerning CSA Throwing the elders and the congregation under the bus .Why people don't see into this is beyond me.
An interesting prediction.
I wonder what the social outcome will be for those (probably mostly PIMOs) that then choose not to be very shunny, will there be talks about them having a weaker conscience? Will it be like those that chose to go to University that got half shunned but not fully shunned?
When they let the control get decentralized it can be interesting (and highly traumatic) in how that actually plays out, since there are already congregations that are way more chill and liberal than others.
I think you might be right on this being their direction going forward with not just marking but also DF and possibly DA in the future. I don’t know that this will go the way they want. Gossiping is a big part of JW life, being judgemental and feeling superior on who’s the most showy and indoctrinated and we all know those extremely jusgemental PIMIs that will gossip and think they are better than everyone else. This is going to cause a lot of judgement and gossip and create some division if they encourage people to do. If anything they should encourage it’s a personal decision and should be shared with others or judge others for not sharing our own view. Otherwise it will be so much drama and other trying to push people they know to judging the way they way they do. Also speaking of judging isn’t there a scripture that brings up judging and how only God can judge and yet they will be marking people essentially judging?
I wonder if it’ll be one of those things that if you’re known to associate with those who under the current arrangement would be DFed, then you’re no longer considered exemplary and therefore lose all your “privileges.”
It doesn’t sound like they have changed DF yet. So if someone does something worth getting DF then they would be and you would be expected to shun anyways.
I have thought that maybe they plan to introduce a new term idk something like Jexit which is a new way for people who just don’t want to live like a JW to leave without being shunned and this marking could apply to them. The keep DF arrangement but that is for people who disrespect the organization by remaining a JW and sinning when they could have chose to not bring reproach on Gods name and just did the Jexit so because they brazenly sinned while being a JW they get DF. Then they would eventually just phase out DAing esp since it doesn’t happen as often or as common making it easier to phase out even thought the Jexit is really just a replacement of what the DA was before they made people shun them.
This has been the plan along. To shift *all* liability and potential blame from the leaders of the organization to its members. They had to figure out a way to escape all the legal pressure and fees and this is their best solution. Unfortunately for them, this doesn’t change the precedent already established from years and years of documenting and publishing their toxic processes.
Only a full organizational overhaul along with a name change can possibly get them out of the mess they’ve made. But then if they do that they will certainly lose more members than they already have been.
Yes I totally agree .. those assholes are trying to be more politically acceptable..... Fuck God, fuck the Bible, they want to keep their religion going and will do anything to make it continue. This is not about right and wrong ... This is about the fight to survive. How can anyone respect this gutter religion?????
I agree that this is where they probably want to go. The one problem for them that I see is how the congregation will find out when someone confesses in secret.
If someone fornicates, they probably won't be DF'ed anymore if they say they're sorry. But what if they're not sorry and the matter is not public? Or they're definitely apostate? They need the shunning to start, but how are they going to signal it to the congregation?
They can be vague as they have been in the past, "A matter involving so-and-so has been addressed," or whatever, but that's pretty vague. If they just think up a new euphemism for disfellowshipped, they're in the same boat.
They'll do what all other churches do...leave it up to the people and simply enforce it thru peer pressure. They'll stop making announcements from the stage about matters period.
This is because the GB does not understand that marking and disassociation are the same thing. In fact, Paul writes to the congregation of the Corinthians and not to the body of elders of the Corinthians. Everyone decided to push away or welcome, but do we take into account that the first Christians gathered in the homes of other Christians and did not have kingdom halls or synagogues? Lots of confusion in GB and they don't really love brothers if they loved they would change immediately
Exactly my reason for leaving after 50 years we didnt shun folks who stopped coming to meetings or just drifted away ,it was in the 1980s all this nonsense started . The org has become very unloving .
They probably wrote that article on disassociation first, but then freaked out and re-wrote it on marking, giving it in a much softer tone.
All of those "Questions from readers" are fake.
For a while now, I've thought they would do this with DF, and DA. Given this move on marking, this certainly seems suspect.
Honestly, it wouldn't really change a thing. Look at the number of JWs who already shun those *not* DFed or DAed - those of us who just left.
Counsel is never given to the congregation that this treatment is unwarranted and excessive.
The average JW *needs* people to believe and act as they do because otherwise they feel threatened. Shunning is part of their character.
Because of this, making marking and shunning a personal matter won't even move the needle.
Some people may choose to be more lax without the stipulations, but I feel most will keep on doing as they always would.
Maybe even more so now, since they can create any excuse they see fit in order to avoid someone!
Exactly! 2 Corinthians 2:5,6 says about what to do with a sinner: "Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of you to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. This rebuke given BY THE MAJORITY is sufficient for such a man." What did that mean, "by the majority"? I don't think that Paul meant a democratic vote. More likely, I think, he wanted to say that each member of the congregation had to make his own decision about how to deal with the wrongdoer. I could fully agree with such advice. In certain extreme situations, we might decide to shun someone. But that would have to be our own personal decision, not the decision of a judicial committee or the Governing Body!
You can have a single issue that different members of the congregation feel differently about. You could be "disfellowshipped," by the right side of the hall, but not the left. Halls with large families (half the elder body has the same last name, for instance) could be especially prone to this.
Only if people have the courage and will to disagree. All too often people just change who they are to fit into their congregation instead of taking a stand on something that isn't supposed to be a rule.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it was just a step towards making disfellowshipping done by individuals so they wouldn’t be responsible for it legally anymore.
Bingo. Previous poster had mentioned the same. If there was no legal liability or $ involved (think Norway), they would NEVER let control of disfellowshipping shunning. It is their ultimate emotional manipulation tool.
I'm not sure how that would pan out, though.
Because if some people decide to shun someone and others refuse, then those who refuse will also be shunned. So, the non-shunners will be pressured to comply or face the same consequences.
The borg ultimately encourages its congregation to withdraw and isolate from people who don't follow JW rules.
They will say it's a conscience matter, and then they will tell you what your conscience should be saying.
Which isn't any different than how it is now.
I don't think it would absolve them legally because the main issue is unchanged. People wouldn't be told to shun others but to shun according to their conscience.
The problem is that only one type of conscience is acceptable as a JW, and they regularly preach this.
So if JWs don't come to the same conclusion the borg finds "acceptable" those individuals will just also be marked or shunned in return.
I think that honestly makes their legal issues worse. Because it has the potential to shun even more people.
My thoughts as well. This is a scrambled attempt for them to have their cake and eat it, too. They want to continue shunning but no longer be liable. They're in a corner.
Oh wow I hadn’t thought of this! This would be fucked up. In this scenario the shunning would rage on but WT like always absolves themselves of any liability. Given the situation with Norway it’s the best move they could make. I really hope this doesn’t happen. And I really hope Norway sees through their bullshit and doesn’t cave.
This is 100% for legal reasons to seem like the org doesn’t control its members decisions. Yet somehow it feels like the toxic judging nature will get even worse with this change.
WT: We shouldn’t judge one another
WT: it’s all up to you to judge one another.
They are distancing themselves from being the ones to make the decision wich may make them less culpable in court.
Unfortunately I don’t see it having major impacts on the culture witch these strong directives have produced for generations
This one here has always been my major point against JW theology: how they go from assumptions using language like “we believe”, “it appears that” and draw really life conclusion, with huge impact on people’s lives…
My reasoning has always been that if you are to draw a conclusion with so much ramifications in people’s live state facts, own your statement and be responsible about it. Anything short it’s cowardice.
Exactly! If you're not absolutely certain, you can suggest, but don't claim God revealed it to you and then impose it on others and punish those who see it differently, only to backtrack later.
On the other hand, if you're really certain, you should be able to own it, and take full responsibility if it fails or proves to be untrue.
AGAIN... all the other religions of Christendom had this right before "God's channel and guardians of doctrine". It seems that the light needs to get brighter for the JWs because so much of their truth was actually false. Other religions don't interfere in people's personal lives and they appear to have more truth than the JWs ever had.
Quite ironic.
So much for “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children." - Luke 20:21.
When Sam Herd made this statement: "Some things Jehovah will not permit us to see even though we read over it many many times", the only verse that came to mind was Matthew 13:14,15:
"And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, **and you will indeed look but by no means see.** For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them".
https://preview.redd.it/i1ezxx7jfi9d1.jpeg?width=4096&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ecb235a8e2fc7220ca34dba3261390288ed8177
Exactly - they have always been so busy praising themselves for their superior 'understanding' that they have missed out on understanding of basic doctrine.
In any other mainstream religion, you are free to make your own choices. So if you decide you don't want to be friends with someone, that's it. It's your life and your choice.
In the JW congregation you have no choice - they are all your "brothers" and you have to associate with all even if they make you feel uncomfortable. On the other hand if they have marked/DF'd or publicly reproved anyone, then you will be reprimanded if you do associate with them. Personal choice is not an option and leads to a lot of toxic interactions.
Gotcha. I thought you were referring to how other denominations handle cases of wrongdoing, their version of a judicial committee (if something comparable even exists).
>__It appears that the marking mentioned by Paul is a decision for each individual in the congregation.__
Let that sink in: "It appears that..."
This practice of elders singling out imperfect individuals trying to serve god, and humiliating them in front of everyone, __appears__ to have been misapplied? Was it or wasn't it?
Something _certain_ to be correct is backed by strong, verifiable evidence and logical reasoning. It has been thoroughly tested and proven to be correct beyond reasonable doubt.
In contrast, something that _appears_ to be right may seem correct on the surface, but lacks definitive proof. It could be based on assumptions, limited information, or personal biases rather than solid facts.
So "guidance" from Jehovah's only organization on earth, led by the Governing Body — which insists, no, _requires_ that you trust them implicitly — makes a major change not based on definitive proof?
Think of all the trauma, shame, and loathing that countless thousands of JWs have suffered under the previous practice. All this with an admission that the GB can't be really certain, but is changing the practice, and with no apologies for the world of hurt that they rained down upon these victims?
Why the change? I suggest three reasons, inclusive or not:
1. Justification for not explaining why Tony Morris was booted from the GB, with no "marking" of him, like ordinary JWs
2. Further softening of their harsh practices that have been the subject of lawsuits and loss of government funding in some countries in Europe
3. Trying to become more mainstream to attract and retain members, since their numbers are declining
Finally, the use of "appears" gives the GB wiggle room to revert back to the harsh practice of public humiliation.
Does this inspire confidence that the GB is god's spokesman? Or does it reveal that they are just ordinary people self-appointing themselves to that position?
The answer is clear as day.
I hate the language they use as well. It appears? Then they go on without even explaining scripturally why it supposedly “appears” that Paul wasn’t referring to the elders. Then again, they never used the scriptures to explain their rules in the first place. You just have to shut up and do what they say. There’s also no apology to all those who were humiliated by being marked. Like Jeff Winder said, “No apology is needed…”
This will really help the unity in the congregation... so if I decide Brother Smith has upset me, I can just write him off in my heart and start shunning him without giving any warning?
I can see youngsters "marking" the uncool ones so they don't get invited to the latest drinks down the bar or parties that almost resemble worldly ones.
I guess PIMOs can "mark" Elders and avoid any Shepherding or items at the hall if they wish 🤞 🤔
Yes, another block has been removed by GB and soon the Jenga tower will fall 😜
Just when you thought things couldn't get any more ridiculous 🙃
It's paying off, I "marked" a traffic policeman who stopped me speeding on the A19 highway yesterday and didn't associate with him to get a ticket 🤣
Yep! It's gonna be a 💩 show!!! Giving narcissists extra tools to bully any they deem unrighteous. What an asshole way to treat people.
But it might make the bullied and actual rightous people wake up. A harsh wake up, but a wake up nonetheless.
>I guess PIMOs can "mark" Elders and avoid any Shepherding or items at the hall if they wish
The look on an elders face when you tell them that your conscience has led you to mark them and quit associating with them would be epic.
Good god, all this is going to do is make the already horrible gossip and judgement culture EXPLODE.
Seriously, this is starting to feel like some weird social experiment.
Any other news? There was talk of a change regarding those who spontaneously dissociate... they could have been talked to unless they were an apostate. Will there be this change towards the dissociated?
my opinion: the August 2024 w was delayed because the GB did not want to insert those 3 paragraphs on those who dissociate. Maybe they want to announce it in an Update or at the Annual Meeting. They want to have the glory of men.
I've written a list on another post about glaring changes, you may want to read my summary. I'm trying to make these into a public post, the mods are slow to let me post the information.
A move that shows what unspiritual fools they are. Placing so much focused energy on shunning is the exact opposite of what Jehovahs Witnesses need in general. If shunning was an Olympic, event, JW's would get the gold medal, with Mennonites silver.
Witnesses need love, charity, kindness, empathy, and suspending judgments. Pumping out exclusionist trash such as this only encourages more coldness and social division - as Witnesses already obsess with shunning each other.
Of course those mf’s try to do anything, that they can’t be blamed anymore for their doctrines and rules. They put everything on the shoulders of the individual, so that the authorities can’t attack them directly… because it’s the choice of the brother/sister in the congregation!
So now they're not even told who should be shunned in the first degree but should decide for themselves? This is going to work out great. Not.
So who's to decide now? The group leaders? The clique frontpersons? The average JW is just not capable of deciding for themselves if not told what to do and what to think
Dark times indeed
Oh how loving an arrangement. I am so fortunate to have been able to be marked under the previous understanding. We truly can see the creators hand operating on his only organization. Hahaha ass clowns.
I hope so as well. Unfortunately a lot of people raised in it have no knowledge of previous policies. I sure didn’t know anything about Russell or Rutherford or 1975 being raised in it.
Wahooo, had a bit of a rough day yesterday and this will more than make up for that! I’m a history fiend and so will ingest this content joyfully! Thank you for sharing!
Why the change? "Because we lost a big legal battle that you will not here of nor should you concern yourself with" is probably not what follows I'm guesting.
So really this means 1 or 2 things;
1) they may not announce public reproof
2)they may not have the “local needs” inspired by the sinner
The current way it works is that when wrong doing is known to the elders and they feel like it has grounds for public reproof, they usually will announce that the person(s) in question have been “publicly reproved”. And then the next week they will have a local needs explaining why you shouldn’t do this and then everyone in the hall knows why the persons were reproved the previous week. This served as the elders marking individuals as “high risk”.
This is so true!! I’ve never heard a local needs or marking talk on that but man oh man have I heard them on some other things. Usually dating a non JW
This will be so ugly... one individual will 'mark' someone... but another person will not and will continue to associate. So then the individual who did the marking will then 'mark' them. This will only lead to more divisions.
My issue with this is while traditional marking talks are apparently going away, elders are still going to be able trigger markings unofficially with ease.
It's doubtful this will stop elders from giving public needs talks that function as quasi-marking talks, and it won't stop elders from privately speaking to family heads to influence "personal marking".
This is a beautiful disaster waiting to happen, with delicious potential to completely tear apart congregations.
Sister Jones is dating a worldly man, so her family decides to “mark” her and soft shun. But brother and sister Stevens still want to go hiking with her every month as they always have.
So family Jones soft shuns the Stevens.
Seeing this, brother Watson decides to discuss the problem with his family, and they decide to cancel their plans to go on vacation with the Jones family.
When she learns about the Watson’s last minute cancellation, sister Carlson tells everyone in her car group on Saturday. A disagreement arises over whether or not the Watsons made the right decision.
In their desire to remove responsibility, the GB is destroying their own cult.
Get your popcorn ready people, because I have a feeling this is going to be good!
I was already unofficially shunned for speaking out against the golden family, so this ain’t even new.
Now it’s just an official policy that this is acceptable behavior.
That way they avoid responsibility. They can say they didnt tell the followers to shun anyone, they just do it according to their bible “trained” conscience.
These are such superficial changes to make the R&F feel like things are softer or more progressive to distract them away from the major issues they are having. It’s like tenderly treating a little papercut and ignoring a rotting gangrenous leg.
This will definitely create community within JW more similar to the other churches. People will just get to do whatever they want and form their own cliques without fear of being judged. This will massively divide the JWs. I can already see JWs saying that there are JWs and there are JWs, you need to be careful who you associate with within the congregation more than ever. Any brother or sister can no longer be trusted.
WT will also maintain that everyone has their own conscience and that it's not mandated through the HQ.
I haven't heard a marking talk in...I don't know how long. I've heard a handful over the course of my life, all of which took place in the 80s and 90s. Maybe there are other congregations that do it, but definitely not the ones I've been in over the past 25 years.
So someone can have a hair up their ass about an individual who is completely innocent and because they misheard or start rumors that person can be shunned by that individual and others. Yeah that’s a loving arrangement….not! Shit my whole born in life was like that. Good lord that’s awful. So much wrong with this whole thing.
They really can't help themselves. They take a scripture and build a narrative around it so they can apply it to the organization even though there is no mention anywhere in the Bible to do so. Once again, "going beyond what's written."
“It appears” that shunning is also a personal choice that this organization is currently mandating.
But you won’t see them getting a “deeper” understanding of that any time soon.
I don’t know how this will be received, but I believe this was an unwritten policy for many decades, at least.
They’d let elder families basically declare which teens & kids were fit to associate with, by who they’d include in gatherings. Even to the extent of not calling on them if they attempt to comment at meetings.
I love this. It's going to lead to disunity in the congregations as some shun and others don't. Making factions in each congregation. Bravo bOrg. Bravo.
What cracks me up is that I never knew the marking talk was aimed at me. I was doing nothing wrong. I was just a female that moved out on my own INTO AN ELDER'S DUPLEX LOCATED IN THE KINGDOM HALL PARKING LOT. All I knew was that people stopped talking to me and I didn't have to give talks (demonstrations) anymore.
Some "sisters" counseled me about keeping my curtains open because I was apparently tempting worldly men from the apartment complex next door, but I didn't pay attention to them. No worldly people ever approached me.
Then everyone stopped talking to me. Lucky for me, I didn't miss them or their busy body interference.
This just to relieve the borg of legal issues. The "real truth" is that the elders will just tell their wives, and it will spread throughout the congregation and other areas. It will still affect people the same way. It's just like not announcing "disfellowshiped" but "no longer one of Jehovah's witnesses"
Same actions, different wording, does not change anything!
I soft shunned lots of people during my zealot years. I had "Kingdom Hall only" relationships with 90 percent of JWs and I was a pioneer elder for 14 years.
It's the same sly legalese that the Watchtower Society used to attempt to claim that JWs went door-to-door voluntarily, on their own, without any urging or pressure from the Watchtower Society. Unfortunately I can't find the Reddit threads about that aspect....
It's also what the Watchtower Society uses to put the elders at legal risk, to lower the level of the WT Society's legal exposure in CSA cases, and other situations like the recent removal of the WT Society from Norway's officially listed churches.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/xx75n8/elders_are_religious_volunteers_and_they_are_not/
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/13e21e2/this_is_a_serious_warning_to_jehovahs_witness/
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/185514/volunteer-work-preaching-lie
Further reading.....
https://casetext.com/case/conti-v-watchtower-bible-amp-tract-socy-of-ny-inc
https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/35155
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5397020899016704/real-reasons-behind-this-change?page=2
Hah. The Watchtower Society's lawyers are a slimy, slithering bunch willing to LIE in court to protect the Watchtower Society's financial interests.
I wish I had time to provide you with links, but just do a general internet search on "Watchtower Society lawyers lie" and see what comes up.
For example, this came up as the first result when I made that search....
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/12na4x3/lawyer_for_jehovahs_witnesses_is_sanctioned_for/
Why Is this change needed? Let's consider the context of our reputation damage and finnacial loss (current or possible future because of this precedens) from negativne Norway court result....
Are they going to make the leap from marking to Disfellowshipped.... Are they next going to say the elders will no longer make an announcement of disfellowship ping and that each person will need to make their own decision to part ways with those with poor morals???
So it will become more rampant. Great.
More people will leave because of this move. Giving the rank and file the power of such a detrimental aspect of the borg will give those who like to power jockey even more power. And without access to their “holy text” of the Elder’s manual will mean even more rigid judge/jury/excecutionner behaviour.
Those looking to leave are going to face even more problems if they’re not in a good position to. This is not good.
Ok they will kill df and make it conscious matter. They will change it to assist the sinner. It will be slow and gradual, first they will say to families to try to help the sinner to repent and next stop it all. Obey and do not question the GB is in place to silence anyone with different thought
I just feel its nobody's business if you decide it's not your cup of tea anymore.
I don't agree with them getting involved in every members private business. If they are an elder, or overseer that's different because they are held to a more strict standard.
But to hassle all members because they are ... taking up basketball, hockey, film work, dating, university education, another bible study group, etc. ... it's not their business!
If a member no longer agrees with their ways, they should be allowed to move on without judgement and each individual member can choose for themselves whether they want to remain friends or not.
It's your right from God to make your own choices.
Thank God! Previously I'd only be judged by a bunch of assholes called elders. Now, the entire congregation will officialy be able to qualify my *Spiritual Strenght*™ based upon precise metrics defined by the *Divine Governing Bozos™*
Such a fucking blessing! 😂
Da fuk? I swear if my phone starts blowing up again from people who i thought were my friends bc of more bullshit from Watchtower, all of em getting cussed out this time....
the congregation I used to go to no longer has any youth that grew up there willing to visit or stop in. Even the more lax PIMI bounced as soon as they turned 18 and never came back. They moved STATES away, married and unmarried. We were all teenagers, and several of us UNBAPTIZED were marked.
not that the elders would care, but I hope the ones that thrive off of shunning are squirming in their seats, remembering every youth and underserving person they embarrassed.
It took me years to unravel and untangle the doctrine JW quietly implanted in my mind as I grew up. The longer you spend focusing on these issues the less time you have to begin your search for sound biblical teaching. The Bible is how God communicates with His people, it is where we go to find definitive truth. But most of us have tripwires in our belief system that were designed to make that hard to enjoy if we leave the organization. You will see when you start trying to understand His church and find it. Once you learn where your trip wires are, you can begin to work through them. But I warn you it takes work and time. Don’t be fooled into focusing on side issues. Of course you were mistreated, abused even, but it was all to keep you separated from what God has in store for you. Get busy, he has a plan and a future for you. Get a reliable bible and start reading. Then find your brothers and sisters.
So.... does this mean that an "Elder" I have heard of who recently bought a Porsche 311 (which he conspicuously hides in his garage) can be shunned by the congregation due to his "showy display of his means of life" ? #unintendedconsequences #materialistic #douche
Omgoodness!!! If this takes place, JW’s are going to self destruct! They already have a massive problem of judging each other, this will just encourage them to do it even more! I say, “Yeah!” it will push more out, helping them wake up to the reality of the cult tactics! Good job GB, push the judging to the rank & file, so they can destroy each other!!!
Isnt it sad that JWs need permission from their org to behave like everyone else on the planet? - By using their own brain to decide if someone is "bad" association for them.
>This relieves the organisation od some responsibility and at the same time encourages spontaneous soft shunning.
Exactly.
What a vicious, cowardly move by the Watchtower Society.
Happily this will just drive more people out of the organization.
And when will their apology come for publicly humiliating thousands of people?
I just said that out loud!! These mother fuckers never had to publicly humiliate me. And thousands of others.
Me for walking hand in hand with my BF at the age of 23. Because we weren't engaged...
Hell I was engaged and getting married a week later at 22 and someone had a hair up their ass and we got talked to about holding hands and sitting next to each other. Like person we are grown ass adults who have done everything right and getting married next week and you have an issue. Also my PIMI sister in law who is annoying got in trouble and got married like three days earlier then she was supposed to and not one person said a word, because she was annoying. She did all kinds of bad shit but never got DFd or reproved cuz she was annoying. It was and is so frustrating. People are ridiculous.
I once had a PIMI pioneer bf, I was PIMI pioneer too, and the elders in his cong had an issue with us travelling in the same car together _with other people_. But we could sit together at the hall. However for the assembly, we were allowed to travel together with others in the same car, _but not allowed to sit together_. I was 19. Same elders for both different decisions. -. -
Such insanity. I’m serious it is crazy making!!!
Lmao kinda reminds me of the time when I went to assembly and sat next to one of my guy friends who was like a brother to me and I was soo tired and bored that I rested my head on his shoulder to take a nap for like 2 mins *gasp!* and afterwards I guess an uuuuber pimi and also antivaxer/health nut came up to his mother (who was also sitting right next to us who didn't have a problem) and started saying how it wasn't proper and that people might get the wrong idea and was basically spitting. So his mom came up to me and basically said to not do anything to ruin his chances of becoming an MS 🙄 this was the same woman I treated as a second mom when my mom was in jail AND who asked me (after being dfd for like 4 months) to walk her dog for her because no one else in the family could and I had a key to her house still. Never talked to me again except last year to ask me to go to memorial....
Such abnormal human interactions compared to what other people experience outside of the organisation. Here's to saner experiences going forward 😂🥂
It's all very childish, if you get pregnant it's your own problem, your a growing up,be responsible for your own life,
You can be 65 and they will still infantalize you. I’m sorry this happened to you, too. It’s not right.
You mean because she was annoying they didn't want to bother with her annoying ass???
No cuz she is annointed and annoying
Ohhhh I get it
You mean you were marked because of this?????
I hate it for you. I’m so sorry.
❤️🫶🏼❤️
"The Governing Body makes no apology" Jeff Winder, 2023 annual meeting
I get the feeling this statement will age like milk.
What about wine? Or Macallan?
I still don't get the biblical backing for this outlandish nonsense. We don't have to apologize when we screw up?? Like. The fuck??? Why would you even say that out loud? What other proof do you need that the power and celebrity has clearly gone to these delusional tool's heads?
What the actual @&$)?
#PLUS: The Blood Ban, CSAs, along with other henious actions they have been known to commit❗️😡🤬
Which has been a direct ignoring of Paul’s instruction Therefore if one is to follow Paul’s counsel the WT should be marked and shunned
As someone who was “marked” as a teenager in the early ‘70s, I feel this.
Knowing this, we do not feel embarrassed when changes are made, nor do… is an apology necessary. (Not exact quote but pretty close 😂)
So don't expect one ,when it's a personal matter to get blood or talk to a family member or friend, because shunning will be classified as wicked in the future not to long,.it's dated and cruel,and to let a child die over a misunderstanding on pouring blood to the ground, will be changed to a personal matter, of course legally they will be upheld human rights violations, on blood transfusion issues,
😂😂😂 /s
This 👆
Why would we see the need for an apology?
Sorry. We had it wrong. The light gets brighter. All of you who were wrongly “marked” can just get over yourselves.
Are they going to tell us to go cry under a tree again like they did about 1975?
This!!!!
Never will, we don't apologize for past wrongful decisions
Should not the scripture they use for disfellowshipped and disassociated ones also be left up to the individual conscience? No where in Bible is it mentioned to form a committee of men and decide if a person needs disfellowshipped. If so why wasn’t David in the Bible who purposely committed adulterous affair and plotted to kill the husband disfellowshipped and shunned. How about Peter he denied Jesus three times and he didn’t get disfellowshipped and shunned. Wouldn’t that almost be the same as talking against.
Your point about individual conscience regarding disfellowshipping and disassociation is quite insightful. I have been thinking about a possible strategy behind recent changes in how the organization handles marking individuals. Here’s my hypothesis on the gradual decentralization approach: The organization will shift the responsibility of marking individuals from elders to individual members. This allows them to claim that marking someone as bad association is a personal choice, not an enforced policy. I suspect that similar changes could be applied to disfellowshipping. By putting the responsibility on individual members to decide whether to associate with disfellowshipped individuals, the organization can distance itself from accusations of systematic shunning. Even with these decentralized decisions, the organization would likely continue to stress the importance of avoiding bad associations through teachings and indirect instructions. This would ensure that the practical outcome remains the same, with social control effectively maintained within the community. By gradually shifting these responsibilities, the organization can argue that any social exclusion is a matter of personal choice rather than a direct mandate. This could be a strategic move to navigate legal challenges while still upholding their practices.
Yes I totally agree with this , exactly what they will do concerning CSA Throwing the elders and the congregation under the bus .Why people don't see into this is beyond me.
Then they can gossip and group humiliate people who choose to use their 'Bible Based Conscience™' Darn it.. it just might work 🤔 😒
My mother gonna be shunning everbody!! Seriously, though, those KH cliques just got even nastier.
My judge/ex-mother in-law is a high-riding professional shunner as well.
Exactly!
Spot on!Thank you
An interesting prediction. I wonder what the social outcome will be for those (probably mostly PIMOs) that then choose not to be very shunny, will there be talks about them having a weaker conscience? Will it be like those that chose to go to University that got half shunned but not fully shunned? When they let the control get decentralized it can be interesting (and highly traumatic) in how that actually plays out, since there are already congregations that are way more chill and liberal than others.
I think you might be right on this being their direction going forward with not just marking but also DF and possibly DA in the future. I don’t know that this will go the way they want. Gossiping is a big part of JW life, being judgemental and feeling superior on who’s the most showy and indoctrinated and we all know those extremely jusgemental PIMIs that will gossip and think they are better than everyone else. This is going to cause a lot of judgement and gossip and create some division if they encourage people to do. If anything they should encourage it’s a personal decision and should be shared with others or judge others for not sharing our own view. Otherwise it will be so much drama and other trying to push people they know to judging the way they way they do. Also speaking of judging isn’t there a scripture that brings up judging and how only God can judge and yet they will be marking people essentially judging?
I wonder if it’ll be one of those things that if you’re known to associate with those who under the current arrangement would be DFed, then you’re no longer considered exemplary and therefore lose all your “privileges.”
It doesn’t sound like they have changed DF yet. So if someone does something worth getting DF then they would be and you would be expected to shun anyways. I have thought that maybe they plan to introduce a new term idk something like Jexit which is a new way for people who just don’t want to live like a JW to leave without being shunned and this marking could apply to them. The keep DF arrangement but that is for people who disrespect the organization by remaining a JW and sinning when they could have chose to not bring reproach on Gods name and just did the Jexit so because they brazenly sinned while being a JW they get DF. Then they would eventually just phase out DAing esp since it doesn’t happen as often or as common making it easier to phase out even thought the Jexit is really just a replacement of what the DA was before they made people shun them.
“Jexit” - we’ll have to add that to our “theocratic vocabulary.”
This has been the plan along. To shift *all* liability and potential blame from the leaders of the organization to its members. They had to figure out a way to escape all the legal pressure and fees and this is their best solution. Unfortunately for them, this doesn’t change the precedent already established from years and years of documenting and publishing their toxic processes. Only a full organizational overhaul along with a name change can possibly get them out of the mess they’ve made. But then if they do that they will certainly lose more members than they already have been.
Very interesting. This could well be true
Exactly! And they’ll go back to Norway, hat in hand, saying “Look! We don’t shun”. It’s all about the money.
I think you nailed it.
Yes I totally agree .. those assholes are trying to be more politically acceptable..... Fuck God, fuck the Bible, they want to keep their religion going and will do anything to make it continue. This is not about right and wrong ... This is about the fight to survive. How can anyone respect this gutter religion?????
I agree that this is where they probably want to go. The one problem for them that I see is how the congregation will find out when someone confesses in secret. If someone fornicates, they probably won't be DF'ed anymore if they say they're sorry. But what if they're not sorry and the matter is not public? Or they're definitely apostate? They need the shunning to start, but how are they going to signal it to the congregation? They can be vague as they have been in the past, "A matter involving so-and-so has been addressed," or whatever, but that's pretty vague. If they just think up a new euphemism for disfellowshipped, they're in the same boat.
They'll do what all other churches do...leave it up to the people and simply enforce it thru peer pressure. They'll stop making announcements from the stage about matters period.
This is because the GB does not understand that marking and disassociation are the same thing. In fact, Paul writes to the congregation of the Corinthians and not to the body of elders of the Corinthians. Everyone decided to push away or welcome, but do we take into account that the first Christians gathered in the homes of other Christians and did not have kingdom halls or synagogues? Lots of confusion in GB and they don't really love brothers if they loved they would change immediately
Exactly my reason for leaving after 50 years we didnt shun folks who stopped coming to meetings or just drifted away ,it was in the 1980s all this nonsense started . The org has become very unloving .
"they don't really love brothers " Or sisters
you lost me at "Paul writes"
I think they know Bible. But watchtower in reality is a cooperation. They think more about share holders then biblical principle
They probably wrote that article on disassociation first, but then freaked out and re-wrote it on marking, giving it in a much softer tone. All of those "Questions from readers" are fake.
Exactly my thoughts 🤦
For a while now, I've thought they would do this with DF, and DA. Given this move on marking, this certainly seems suspect. Honestly, it wouldn't really change a thing. Look at the number of JWs who already shun those *not* DFed or DAed - those of us who just left. Counsel is never given to the congregation that this treatment is unwarranted and excessive. The average JW *needs* people to believe and act as they do because otherwise they feel threatened. Shunning is part of their character. Because of this, making marking and shunning a personal matter won't even move the needle. Some people may choose to be more lax without the stipulations, but I feel most will keep on doing as they always would. Maybe even more so now, since they can create any excuse they see fit in order to avoid someone!
Peter would be considered a whole apostate according to the GB
The string has been pulled and the sweater will unravel. Also, they both should have been stoned to death according to their law
That is the general direction the changes are going. Have a look at my profile, I've added the glaring obvious changes in a summary list.
Exactly! 2 Corinthians 2:5,6 says about what to do with a sinner: "Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of you to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. This rebuke given BY THE MAJORITY is sufficient for such a man." What did that mean, "by the majority"? I don't think that Paul meant a democratic vote. More likely, I think, he wanted to say that each member of the congregation had to make his own decision about how to deal with the wrongdoer. I could fully agree with such advice. In certain extreme situations, we might decide to shun someone. But that would have to be our own personal decision, not the decision of a judicial committee or the Governing Body!
Oh, great. This isn't going to go terribly and lead to even more intensely judgemental interactions within the congregations at all.
It will cause a lot of division and judgements for sure. I can see it breaking up congs, how sad lol
Let me get my tiny violin....
>how sad You forgot to read it in the exaggerated sad overtones. You know, to emphasize how sad it is lmao.
You can have a single issue that different members of the congregation feel differently about. You could be "disfellowshipped," by the right side of the hall, but not the left. Halls with large families (half the elder body has the same last name, for instance) could be especially prone to this.
🤣
Only if people have the courage and will to disagree. All too often people just change who they are to fit into their congregation instead of taking a stand on something that isn't supposed to be a rule.
And the gossip. Oh dear Lord, the gossip!
The GB and the writers of this article should be disfellowshipped for causing disunity and distrust within the congregation!!!
Exactly my thoughts
I wouldn’t be surprised if it was just a step towards making disfellowshipping done by individuals so they wouldn’t be responsible for it legally anymore.
Bingo. Previous poster had mentioned the same. If there was no legal liability or $ involved (think Norway), they would NEVER let control of disfellowshipping shunning. It is their ultimate emotional manipulation tool.
I'm not sure how that would pan out, though. Because if some people decide to shun someone and others refuse, then those who refuse will also be shunned. So, the non-shunners will be pressured to comply or face the same consequences. The borg ultimately encourages its congregation to withdraw and isolate from people who don't follow JW rules. They will say it's a conscience matter, and then they will tell you what your conscience should be saying. Which isn't any different than how it is now. I don't think it would absolve them legally because the main issue is unchanged. People wouldn't be told to shun others but to shun according to their conscience. The problem is that only one type of conscience is acceptable as a JW, and they regularly preach this. So if JWs don't come to the same conclusion the borg finds "acceptable" those individuals will just also be marked or shunned in return. I think that honestly makes their legal issues worse. Because it has the potential to shun even more people.
My thoughts as well. This is a scrambled attempt for them to have their cake and eat it, too. They want to continue shunning but no longer be liable. They're in a corner.
Oh wow I hadn’t thought of this! This would be fucked up. In this scenario the shunning would rage on but WT like always absolves themselves of any liability. Given the situation with Norway it’s the best move they could make. I really hope this doesn’t happen. And I really hope Norway sees through their bullshit and doesn’t cave.
Remember. God never changes. So who changed this?
men
This is 100% for legal reasons to seem like the org doesn’t control its members decisions. Yet somehow it feels like the toxic judging nature will get even worse with this change. WT: We shouldn’t judge one another WT: it’s all up to you to judge one another.
No comment necessary! https://preview.redd.it/394rr3zidi9d1.jpeg?width=1008&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=047f2666d38cbf52023ad2edc1b591408805079e
They are distancing themselves from being the ones to make the decision wich may make them less culpable in court. Unfortunately I don’t see it having major impacts on the culture witch these strong directives have produced for generations
This one here has always been my major point against JW theology: how they go from assumptions using language like “we believe”, “it appears that” and draw really life conclusion, with huge impact on people’s lives… My reasoning has always been that if you are to draw a conclusion with so much ramifications in people’s live state facts, own your statement and be responsible about it. Anything short it’s cowardice.
Exactly! If you're not absolutely certain, you can suggest, but don't claim God revealed it to you and then impose it on others and punish those who see it differently, only to backtrack later. On the other hand, if you're really certain, you should be able to own it, and take full responsibility if it fails or proves to be untrue.
Yea it makes me so mad
AGAIN... all the other religions of Christendom had this right before "God's channel and guardians of doctrine". It seems that the light needs to get brighter for the JWs because so much of their truth was actually false. Other religions don't interfere in people's personal lives and they appear to have more truth than the JWs ever had.
Quite ironic. So much for “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children." - Luke 20:21. When Sam Herd made this statement: "Some things Jehovah will not permit us to see even though we read over it many many times", the only verse that came to mind was Matthew 13:14,15: "And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, **and you will indeed look but by no means see.** For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them". https://preview.redd.it/i1ezxx7jfi9d1.jpeg?width=4096&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2ecb235a8e2fc7220ca34dba3261390288ed8177
Exactly - they have always been so busy praising themselves for their superior 'understanding' that they have missed out on understanding of basic doctrine.
How do other denominations handle it? I’m afraid I know nothing about that.
In any other mainstream religion, you are free to make your own choices. So if you decide you don't want to be friends with someone, that's it. It's your life and your choice. In the JW congregation you have no choice - they are all your "brothers" and you have to associate with all even if they make you feel uncomfortable. On the other hand if they have marked/DF'd or publicly reproved anyone, then you will be reprimanded if you do associate with them. Personal choice is not an option and leads to a lot of toxic interactions.
Gotcha. I thought you were referring to how other denominations handle cases of wrongdoing, their version of a judicial committee (if something comparable even exists).
>__It appears that the marking mentioned by Paul is a decision for each individual in the congregation.__ Let that sink in: "It appears that..." This practice of elders singling out imperfect individuals trying to serve god, and humiliating them in front of everyone, __appears__ to have been misapplied? Was it or wasn't it? Something _certain_ to be correct is backed by strong, verifiable evidence and logical reasoning. It has been thoroughly tested and proven to be correct beyond reasonable doubt. In contrast, something that _appears_ to be right may seem correct on the surface, but lacks definitive proof. It could be based on assumptions, limited information, or personal biases rather than solid facts. So "guidance" from Jehovah's only organization on earth, led by the Governing Body — which insists, no, _requires_ that you trust them implicitly — makes a major change not based on definitive proof? Think of all the trauma, shame, and loathing that countless thousands of JWs have suffered under the previous practice. All this with an admission that the GB can't be really certain, but is changing the practice, and with no apologies for the world of hurt that they rained down upon these victims? Why the change? I suggest three reasons, inclusive or not: 1. Justification for not explaining why Tony Morris was booted from the GB, with no "marking" of him, like ordinary JWs 2. Further softening of their harsh practices that have been the subject of lawsuits and loss of government funding in some countries in Europe 3. Trying to become more mainstream to attract and retain members, since their numbers are declining Finally, the use of "appears" gives the GB wiggle room to revert back to the harsh practice of public humiliation. Does this inspire confidence that the GB is god's spokesman? Or does it reveal that they are just ordinary people self-appointing themselves to that position? The answer is clear as day.
I hate the language they use as well. It appears? Then they go on without even explaining scripturally why it supposedly “appears” that Paul wasn’t referring to the elders. Then again, they never used the scriptures to explain their rules in the first place. You just have to shut up and do what they say. There’s also no apology to all those who were humiliated by being marked. Like Jeff Winder said, “No apology is needed…”
Exactly. Just how did it appear? In a dream? Over cocktails? No apologies needed, indeed.
“It appears” - very weaselly words.
We should all mark the ppl who don’t announce predators to the congregation, who beats their wife, etc
Instead, they will all mark the victim who dares speak such slanderous things about such a lovely brother.
Funny thing is, JWs already mark you if you don’t fit what they feel is an ideal JW
This will really help the unity in the congregation... so if I decide Brother Smith has upset me, I can just write him off in my heart and start shunning him without giving any warning? I can see youngsters "marking" the uncool ones so they don't get invited to the latest drinks down the bar or parties that almost resemble worldly ones. I guess PIMOs can "mark" Elders and avoid any Shepherding or items at the hall if they wish 🤞 🤔 Yes, another block has been removed by GB and soon the Jenga tower will fall 😜 Just when you thought things couldn't get any more ridiculous 🙃 It's paying off, I "marked" a traffic policeman who stopped me speeding on the A19 highway yesterday and didn't associate with him to get a ticket 🤣
Yep! It's gonna be a 💩 show!!! Giving narcissists extra tools to bully any they deem unrighteous. What an asshole way to treat people. But it might make the bullied and actual rightous people wake up. A harsh wake up, but a wake up nonetheless.
>I guess PIMOs can "mark" Elders and avoid any Shepherding or items at the hall if they wish The look on an elders face when you tell them that your conscience has led you to mark them and quit associating with them would be epic.
Maybe the rule (ahem) will be that we can’t mark someone who has certain “privileges.” Who knows.
It's made up as they go along...
Good god, all this is going to do is make the already horrible gossip and judgement culture EXPLODE. Seriously, this is starting to feel like some weird social experiment.
"Why was this change needed?" We got sued. Think about it... Jehovah got taken to court, and he lost. Omnipotence isn't what it used to be.
🤣 feels like there is a potential legal drama show we could pitch to studio execs..”Gods vs Lawyers”
Any other news? There was talk of a change regarding those who spontaneously dissociate... they could have been talked to unless they were an apostate. Will there be this change towards the dissociated?
my opinion: the August 2024 w was delayed because the GB did not want to insert those 3 paragraphs on those who dissociate. Maybe they want to announce it in an Update or at the Annual Meeting. They want to have the glory of men.
Which 3 paragraphs are you referring to?
https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1ddp8d0/watchtower_december_2025_new_light_on/?sort=old
🤔Dec. 2025 wt link below- Fake. Witnesses don't ever use the term "shun" "shunning". Also, 2025?
You mean those slow talking updates and how 'we should be E N C O U R A G E D'
Nothing that I could find like that in the WT. Mainly rehash of points we already know about.
I've written a list on another post about glaring changes, you may want to read my summary. I'm trying to make these into a public post, the mods are slow to let me post the information.
A move that shows what unspiritual fools they are. Placing so much focused energy on shunning is the exact opposite of what Jehovahs Witnesses need in general. If shunning was an Olympic, event, JW's would get the gold medal, with Mennonites silver. Witnesses need love, charity, kindness, empathy, and suspending judgments. Pumping out exclusionist trash such as this only encourages more coldness and social division - as Witnesses already obsess with shunning each other.
Mennonites? Are you from the US Midwest or Pennsylvania? I’ve dealt with them and Amish. They’re a trip.
Of course those mf’s try to do anything, that they can’t be blamed anymore for their doctrines and rules. They put everything on the shoulders of the individual, so that the authorities can’t attack them directly… because it’s the choice of the brother/sister in the congregation!
So now they're not even told who should be shunned in the first degree but should decide for themselves? This is going to work out great. Not. So who's to decide now? The group leaders? The clique frontpersons? The average JW is just not capable of deciding for themselves if not told what to do and what to think Dark times indeed
“Will madam Clique Foreperson please stand and read the verdict?” Ugh.
Oh how loving an arrangement. I am so fortunate to have been able to be marked under the previous understanding. We truly can see the creators hand operating on his only organization. Hahaha ass clowns.
So sorry. Hopefully the unkindness of "old light" will at least help some wake up.
I hope so as well. Unfortunately a lot of people raised in it have no knowledge of previous policies. I sure didn’t know anything about Russell or Rutherford or 1975 being raised in it.
Ooo, have I got a YouTube channel for you! https://m.youtube.com/@WatchtowerHistory
Wahooo, had a bit of a rough day yesterday and this will more than make up for that! I’m a history fiend and so will ingest this content joyfully! Thank you for sharing!
Why the change? "Because we lost a big legal battle that you will not here of nor should you concern yourself with" is probably not what follows I'm guesting.
So really this means 1 or 2 things; 1) they may not announce public reproof 2)they may not have the “local needs” inspired by the sinner The current way it works is that when wrong doing is known to the elders and they feel like it has grounds for public reproof, they usually will announce that the person(s) in question have been “publicly reproved”. And then the next week they will have a local needs explaining why you shouldn’t do this and then everyone in the hall knows why the persons were reproved the previous week. This served as the elders marking individuals as “high risk”.
I have never heard a local needs on how to spot a pedofile. Oh that’s right, because they hide them. Riigghhttt….
Please don’t touch kids mmmmkay 
This is so true!! I’ve never heard a local needs or marking talk on that but man oh man have I heard them on some other things. Usually dating a non JW
Right?!? I actually had to sit back and think about it
This will be so ugly... one individual will 'mark' someone... but another person will not and will continue to associate. So then the individual who did the marking will then 'mark' them. This will only lead to more divisions.
"perhaps we believed" = Pure Watchtower mind control "It was GB mandated and officiated" = reality for decades
My issue with this is while traditional marking talks are apparently going away, elders are still going to be able trigger markings unofficially with ease. It's doubtful this will stop elders from giving public needs talks that function as quasi-marking talks, and it won't stop elders from privately speaking to family heads to influence "personal marking".
This is a beautiful disaster waiting to happen, with delicious potential to completely tear apart congregations. Sister Jones is dating a worldly man, so her family decides to “mark” her and soft shun. But brother and sister Stevens still want to go hiking with her every month as they always have. So family Jones soft shuns the Stevens. Seeing this, brother Watson decides to discuss the problem with his family, and they decide to cancel their plans to go on vacation with the Jones family. When she learns about the Watson’s last minute cancellation, sister Carlson tells everyone in her car group on Saturday. A disagreement arises over whether or not the Watsons made the right decision. In their desire to remove responsibility, the GB is destroying their own cult. Get your popcorn ready people, because I have a feeling this is going to be good!
Do we go to the same congregation?! 😂
I was already unofficially shunned for speaking out against the golden family, so this ain’t even new. Now it’s just an official policy that this is acceptable behavior.
That way they avoid responsibility. They can say they didnt tell the followers to shun anyone, they just do it according to their bible “trained” conscience.
These are such superficial changes to make the R&F feel like things are softer or more progressive to distract them away from the major issues they are having. It’s like tenderly treating a little papercut and ignoring a rotting gangrenous leg.
It doesn't really make anything better. Helps the organisation deflect some responsibility, and at the same time encourages spontaneous soft shunning.
So those who have been df'd are grandfathered in. 🫠 Ok cool. I maintain a class action
No, this is just regarding marking, not disfellowshipping. But yes, those previously publically marked have it hanging over them.
If you think Family Dynasties and cliques are bad now in the congregation, wait till this officially gets out.
This will definitely create community within JW more similar to the other churches. People will just get to do whatever they want and form their own cliques without fear of being judged. This will massively divide the JWs. I can already see JWs saying that there are JWs and there are JWs, you need to be careful who you associate with within the congregation more than ever. Any brother or sister can no longer be trusted. WT will also maintain that everyone has their own conscience and that it's not mandated through the HQ.
In other words, “soft-shunning is now the responsibility of each individual JW”
Who has actually heard a marking announcement recently anyway? Or it just my cong that doesn’t do it?
I haven't heard a marking talk in...I don't know how long. I've heard a handful over the course of my life, all of which took place in the 80s and 90s. Maybe there are other congregations that do it, but definitely not the ones I've been in over the past 25 years.
Right?! I think there were a few when I was younger. So this doesn’t really change anything but makes it look like they’re doing something. 🤷
I can remember hearing only three my entire life.
So someone can have a hair up their ass about an individual who is completely innocent and because they misheard or start rumors that person can be shunned by that individual and others. Yeah that’s a loving arrangement….not! Shit my whole born in life was like that. Good lord that’s awful. So much wrong with this whole thing.
Pdf with this new magazine urgently!!!
Hey I posted this first! 😂
They really can't help themselves. They take a scripture and build a narrative around it so they can apply it to the organization even though there is no mention anywhere in the Bible to do so. Once again, "going beyond what's written."
“It appears” that shunning is also a personal choice that this organization is currently mandating. But you won’t see them getting a “deeper” understanding of that any time soon.
I don’t know how this will be received, but I believe this was an unwritten policy for many decades, at least. They’d let elder families basically declare which teens & kids were fit to associate with, by who they’d include in gatherings. Even to the extent of not calling on them if they attempt to comment at meetings.
I love this. It's going to lead to disunity in the congregations as some shun and others don't. Making factions in each congregation. Bravo bOrg. Bravo.
Increasing the factions in the congregations. They have had a 'clique' problem for the entirety of their existence.
Very true.
What cracks me up is that I never knew the marking talk was aimed at me. I was doing nothing wrong. I was just a female that moved out on my own INTO AN ELDER'S DUPLEX LOCATED IN THE KINGDOM HALL PARKING LOT. All I knew was that people stopped talking to me and I didn't have to give talks (demonstrations) anymore. Some "sisters" counseled me about keeping my curtains open because I was apparently tempting worldly men from the apartment complex next door, but I didn't pay attention to them. No worldly people ever approached me. Then everyone stopped talking to me. Lucky for me, I didn't miss them or their busy body interference.
This just to relieve the borg of legal issues. The "real truth" is that the elders will just tell their wives, and it will spread throughout the congregation and other areas. It will still affect people the same way. It's just like not announcing "disfellowshiped" but "no longer one of Jehovah's witnesses" Same actions, different wording, does not change anything!
So that's just asking for MORE GOSSIP!!!
New light = new reading comprehension. You must be inspired by god to have any.
Running out of elders . Elders are becoming younger and younger . To be known as Younger Elders. Next will be very younger Elders!
Surprised they have not released the English version which is usually the first one out, probably a announcement or a GB update is coming up first.
I soft shunned lots of people during my zealot years. I had "Kingdom Hall only" relationships with 90 percent of JWs and I was a pioneer elder for 14 years.
I don't understand how this could get them free of future legal troubles.
It's the same sly legalese that the Watchtower Society used to attempt to claim that JWs went door-to-door voluntarily, on their own, without any urging or pressure from the Watchtower Society. Unfortunately I can't find the Reddit threads about that aspect.... It's also what the Watchtower Society uses to put the elders at legal risk, to lower the level of the WT Society's legal exposure in CSA cases, and other situations like the recent removal of the WT Society from Norway's officially listed churches. https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/xx75n8/elders_are_religious_volunteers_and_they_are_not/ https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/13e21e2/this_is_a_serious_warning_to_jehovahs_witness/ https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/185514/volunteer-work-preaching-lie Further reading..... https://casetext.com/case/conti-v-watchtower-bible-amp-tract-socy-of-ny-inc https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/35155 https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5397020899016704/real-reasons-behind-this-change?page=2
Wouldn't prosecuting lawyers know this and use it as proof against them?
Hah. The Watchtower Society's lawyers are a slimy, slithering bunch willing to LIE in court to protect the Watchtower Society's financial interests. I wish I had time to provide you with links, but just do a general internet search on "Watchtower Society lawyers lie" and see what comes up. For example, this came up as the first result when I made that search.... https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/12na4x3/lawyer_for_jehovahs_witnesses_is_sanctioned_for/
Why Is this change needed? Let's consider the context of our reputation damage and finnacial loss (current or possible future because of this precedens) from negativne Norway court result....
Are they going to make the leap from marking to Disfellowshipped.... Are they next going to say the elders will no longer make an announcement of disfellowship ping and that each person will need to make their own decision to part ways with those with poor morals???
…. then anyone will mark anyone for any reason??? while jesus simply said “ don’t judge..” mat 7:1-2
So it will become more rampant. Great. More people will leave because of this move. Giving the rank and file the power of such a detrimental aspect of the borg will give those who like to power jockey even more power. And without access to their “holy text” of the Elder’s manual will mean even more rigid judge/jury/excecutionner behaviour. Those looking to leave are going to face even more problems if they’re not in a good position to. This is not good.
Ok they will kill df and make it conscious matter. They will change it to assist the sinner. It will be slow and gradual, first they will say to families to try to help the sinner to repent and next stop it all. Obey and do not question the GB is in place to silence anyone with different thought
I just feel its nobody's business if you decide it's not your cup of tea anymore. I don't agree with them getting involved in every members private business. If they are an elder, or overseer that's different because they are held to a more strict standard. But to hassle all members because they are ... taking up basketball, hockey, film work, dating, university education, another bible study group, etc. ... it's not their business! If a member no longer agrees with their ways, they should be allowed to move on without judgement and each individual member can choose for themselves whether they want to remain friends or not. It's your right from God to make your own choices.
and here I am just now learning what marking is, seriously that was a thing?? never heard of anything like that before..
Is this their way of implying it's a consciousness matter now?
Thank God! Previously I'd only be judged by a bunch of assholes called elders. Now, the entire congregation will officialy be able to qualify my *Spiritual Strenght*™ based upon precise metrics defined by the *Divine Governing Bozos™* Such a fucking blessing! 😂
Da fuk? I swear if my phone starts blowing up again from people who i thought were my friends bc of more bullshit from Watchtower, all of em getting cussed out this time....
the congregation I used to go to no longer has any youth that grew up there willing to visit or stop in. Even the more lax PIMI bounced as soon as they turned 18 and never came back. They moved STATES away, married and unmarried. We were all teenagers, and several of us UNBAPTIZED were marked. not that the elders would care, but I hope the ones that thrive off of shunning are squirming in their seats, remembering every youth and underserving person they embarrassed.
I was “marked” because I had a bumper sticker that said “Jesus loves everyone”, and I refused to take it off my car 😂
Does marking mean that a note is put in your file that you’re bad association?
Soooo… they publicly humiliated people for years and are now trying to protect themselves and allow even more personal judgement. Noted.
Thank you for sharing this. Is this excerpt the reason the English version is missing currently?
Wow! 🤯 The light gets brighter! What a privilege to be amongst god’s people in this ever changing confused world! 🤬
It took me years to unravel and untangle the doctrine JW quietly implanted in my mind as I grew up. The longer you spend focusing on these issues the less time you have to begin your search for sound biblical teaching. The Bible is how God communicates with His people, it is where we go to find definitive truth. But most of us have tripwires in our belief system that were designed to make that hard to enjoy if we leave the organization. You will see when you start trying to understand His church and find it. Once you learn where your trip wires are, you can begin to work through them. But I warn you it takes work and time. Don’t be fooled into focusing on side issues. Of course you were mistreated, abused even, but it was all to keep you separated from what God has in store for you. Get busy, he has a plan and a future for you. Get a reliable bible and start reading. Then find your brothers and sisters.
theyre gonna create even more paranoia
So.... does this mean that an "Elder" I have heard of who recently bought a Porsche 311 (which he conspicuously hides in his garage) can be shunned by the congregation due to his "showy display of his means of life" ? #unintendedconsequences #materialistic #douche
Sneaky, sneaky!
So basically it's just gonna become a free-for-all of people ostracizing each other. Okay.
Omgoodness!!! If this takes place, JW’s are going to self destruct! They already have a massive problem of judging each other, this will just encourage them to do it even more! I say, “Yeah!” it will push more out, helping them wake up to the reality of the cult tactics! Good job GB, push the judging to the rank & file, so they can destroy each other!!!
Isnt it sad that JWs need permission from their org to behave like everyone else on the planet? - By using their own brain to decide if someone is "bad" association for them.
Wait !!! Does this mean they won't ever announce that someone is no longer a JW ? Or basically no one will get disfellowshipped?
>This relieves the organisation od some responsibility and at the same time encourages spontaneous soft shunning. Exactly. What a vicious, cowardly move by the Watchtower Society. Happily this will just drive more people out of the organization.