The instructions on name removal are inconsistent with the church's own policies as stated in section 32.14.9 of the General Handbook. Your bishop is full of it.
The most important point about this whole form is that *all of these options are happening!* These are things members and former members do, and they're doing it to such an extent that TSCC has listed these things and are anticipating them.
They would *never in a million years* acknowledge that quitting is even an option if it wasn't a huge problem for them. But what this form actually does, is that it provides a path of least resistance for inactive members that's still a win for the church. You're right that they don't need a notarized quit letter, but what they're hoping to accomplish with this form is for people to check the second-to-last option instead!
They want people to go "oh bother" at the thought of notarizing something, and instead choose to remain a "no contact" member, because that is more valuable to them than a non-member. They're gonna treat you as if you've quit, but will use you to inflate their numbers, and of course there's a possibility of a re-activation project in the future where they're gonna try to rope you in again.
However, they absolutely can't stop themselves from their usual self-important smug bullshit, which is why it starts with "Dear Bishop," and not "Hey John the Dentist,". Gotta keep up appearances of inflated importance!
>However, they absolutely can't stop themselves from their usual self-important smug bullshit, which is why it starts with "Dear Bishop," and not "Hey John the Dentist,". Gotta keep up appearances of inflated importance!
This is unfair, IMO. They are using "Dear Bishop" because it is his title in the context of this organization. In a class, you call your professor "Professor," even if you know him personally. It's the same here.
The rest of your analysis is really good, but I think this last paragraph is unfair.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/32-repentance-and-membership-councils?lang=eng#title_number88
"If the member still wants to resign Church membership, he or she gives the bishop a written, signed request. The bishop submits the request to the stake president through LCR. The stake president then reviews and submits the request through that system. Leaders should act on requests promptly."
"A person can also resign membership by sending a signed, notarized request to Church headquarters."
If your bishop knows you, no notary is required. At most it needs a notary, no witnesses. Idiots.
https://www.getmeofftherecords.com/
Very true. The MFMC/TSCC tries to make leaving as difficult as possible so that people won’t do it. I did the quitmormon.com route during Covid and went to my bank via an appointment just to get a notary.
Me too. And later I saw the lady from the bank. (We live in a very small town) and she told me that her notarizing our resignation letters, helped push her forward with her own. Who knew!?
I went and read it. Holy shit. So they let you off the records, but they don’t promise to leave you alone. This is blowing my mind tonight, even though it really shouldn’t anymore.
It's curious to me because I recently had a similar encounter where the new bishop emailed and I told him I already resigned and to fuck off and he proceeded to condescend to tell me how my wife and kids should resign also. Very similar energy to this so I wonder if they are upselling resignations to improve some metric
I had some misshies come to my door once. They told me I could easily resign from the church. ( I had been nothing but kind to them. ) The last thing I want to do is push the eject button on their suggestion. Dang it all to heck I push it when *I* choose to push it.
This is an interesting approach. I get the impression the church wants you all in or all out now. Black and white, and not gray anymore. Perhaps they are getting frustrated with the direction of ex-mormon sentiment.
It's just him baiting you - for him, no matter what you do, he wins. They stay members? Win for him. They leave? Well, he told you to have them leave, so win for him.
These sorts are intolerable, and it's best to just ignore them. They want attention.
I would imagine they're wanting to up the percentage of active members in their ward. By getting inactive people off their lists, it makes their numbers look better.
Well, if your wife and kids are hanging out with you and not at church…They want to improve the percentage of attendance “active members” metric. That’s my guess, anyway.
In essence, you have to pay a public agent to get a fancy legal stamp on the letter you send to the bishop. Two signatures cost twice as much. 32.14.9 of the General Handbook only requires a notarized signature if you elect to resign directly through church HQ. Signing your resignation letter and sending it by certified mail to your bishop/ward membership clerk is sufficient in this case to be compliant to the holy handbook... Unless someone here knows different. I'm perfectly fine being corrected.
Honestly, it just sounds like your bishop is a raging dick on a power trip.
Same with companies you do business with. I will notarize anything for employees and customers for free. I also notarize resignations for free. It would be my honor to do so. Normally all I notarize is loan documents.
A notary is someone that can affirm it is you signing the document. I believe the church is doing this for two reasons:
1) They want to make sure it is actually you signing the document, and someone isn't removing your records by mistake.
2) They want to make you think twice about leaving by formalizing it.
Fuck this corporate bullshit. Legally you can leave whenever you want to. These people don't own you and you don't owe them a response.
Make it easy.
https://quitmormon.com/
I don't mean to defend the church, but it looks like they are making good faith effort to see what this guy wants. If he wants no contact this would be a perfect time to make this known!
This is so dumb.
Nobody owes the church anything. You don’t need to respond to their requests and jump through their hoops.
It’s not that hard to figure out who is going to Church and who isn’t. If you need to send those letters anyway, the ones that don’t respond, just take them off your list
I agree that it's a good faith effort. It would have been better if it was framed as "your request has been processed. If you wish to maintain contact, please return this form. Otherwise you will be removed from contact".
They only care about their numbers and having you on their roll looks bad. Either get with the program or gtfo. Of course they want your money but they also want good clean faith promoting records.
Thoughts, “Have you ever wondered why fitness memberships get a bad rap? It is because they are so hard to cancel. In this case membership cancellation is made difficult because your centibillion organization believes actions and beliefs of an 8 year old who at the time believed in Santa Clause, the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy are binding and that this 8 year old made an independent eternal binding decision based on having all the facts and not having been unduly influenced by caretakers. It is now as an adult that I realize why Mormons consider themselves a peculiar people.”
Aaaa ... that would be hectobillion. (Centi is 0.01, Hecto 10\^2)
A sales process that is structured to trick people into buying but makes it difficult to leave is called a "dark pattern." When used, short-term retention increases but causes long-term damage to the organization's reputation and member relationships.
So, remember, you lost your individual agency at baptism and are compelled to conform to *moral* agency (following the Covenant Path).
Strange…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_centibillionaires
I am not disagreeing but see both being used. I have always heard the term centimillionaire for someone with other $100 million and assumed the same applies.
At some point the church might encourage resignations generally.
Hear me out.
In the near future, the church will no longer be able to hide that its numbers are shrinking. As soon as the data start getting ugly, it's conceivable the church will launch a "wheat and tares" program. The initiative will send active members to less-actives encouraging them to either return or remove their records.
Here are the benefits:
(1) The decline in membership numbers can be interpreted as evidence of the success of an inspired program rather than a general decline.
(2) No harm is done to the church by removing inactive records, because these members weren't donating their time or money anyway.
(3) The Active members can further entrench themselves as the elect.
This is such a cynical take, it's depressing, because you're absolutely right. The Q15 will find some way to spin the loss of memberships as inspired, and the members will eat it up like that stupid fast that didn't end the pandemic (or did it, just 2 years later??).
Don't for get an overriding "end of days" over all of it. "It was revealed that in the latter-days, many of the Lord's anointed would turn away from the church."
But their numbers will never show it because as long as you are on the books you count towards the totals and since they don’t actually erase your records when you have them “removed” (they just stop pushing them out) they could still be counting everyone as their “membership”.
Funny thing about having a publicly visible ward directory, someone could just fill in the Ward Secretary's own personal contact info before mailing this back to him.
Here is the letter that finally got my bishop off of my ass.
> Dear [Bishop],
>This letter is to inform you that I have terminated my membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Please remove the name [your full name] from the records of the LDS Church immediately, as dictated in the General Handbook of instructions.
>Birthdate:
>Membership Record Number:
>I understand that the withdrawal of my name cancels the effect of baptism and removes any Priesthood or Temple blessings.
>I demand that you promptly complete the form "Request For Administrative Action" and that the 30 day holding period be waived.
>I will NOT participate in church disciplinary councils for I have done nothing wrong and I have no unresolved transgressions.
>I do NOT want to be contacted by anyone except by mail confirming that my name has been removed from the records. This includes Home Teachers, Visiting Teachers, and anyone else.
>Should the church refuse to remove my membership, I will seek legal counsel.
>Signed,
>[Your name]
Throw his response form out and just send him this. Best of luck!
I would love to have my name removed, but that would mean making contact and they haven't found me in 14 years.... I feel like I may as well let it die?
Go to Quit Mormon. They have the forms you need. No contact with anyone except the notary at the bank, who will look you at you with a grin that says "Why do you need to get a notary for this?" and laugh. It's another nail in the coffin. Every Ex-Mormon a missionary.
Let it die, and you're counted as an active member until your 110th birthday, which you aren't.
Ummmmmm…why care. If someone doesn’t go to church and doesn’t want attention leave them alone. So sorry you have to go through this. This seems ridiculous. I would not respond.
> why care
The church is mostly run like a fast food franchise controlled by MBAs. These organizations split their customers in roughly 3-5 categories, and the purpose of the letter is to put the recipient in to one of the categories. It looks like they want to split members of record who don't attend into 4 groups: do not attend but want to attend, do not want to attend but want contact, do not want to attend and do not want contact, and want to resign.
It's poorly written and printed, but standard for a business unit like McDonald's franchise or mormon ward.
I did not mean why care on the op’s part. Just frustrating the local church care so much that they are wanting them to fill out a survey. Just super inappropriate to ask you me human who has not been to church about their future intentions.
Even my TBM dad who is ward clerk thinks these things are stupid. His opinion is if you want to go you will. If you don’t you won’t. I am thankful he finally got to this point (mom too). But yeah - even active members think this is weird and wrong.
When I was in the ward council, the bishop would sometimes say "we need to visit so-and-so family and let them know when and where church is."
One time it was for a family that literally lived a half-block away from the church building.
Literally all they’d have to do is pay attention to the people around them. People who are enthusiastically involved want to be, people who aren’t probably don’t, people who are just names on paper unknown to anyone in the “active” congregation should be left the hell alone.
Why do they have to be so gawd-awful socially inept?
Because they believe that they are their "brother's keeper". If they are not doing all they can to save their fellow man and woman then the condemnation is upon their (the TBMs) heads. This is what the church has taught in the past. It breeds insufferable nosy busy-bodies.
Not following policy in their handbook is what that is. Even if you send a resignation to HQ or use quit Mormon, they only require the notary to sign as the witness. If you state to your bishop you’re out with a letter, they will try to prevent that but if you say I’m out and want no further contact other than acknowledging your off the rolls and no longer a member they haven’t been pushing a meeting if you are precise and clear in your resignation letter.
At first I thought this was great. An easy way to tell them you want your name off the records, but saying you need two notarized witnesses is ridiculous
Notarized document not necessary. Two of my children sent an email to the bishop requesting their records be removed. They asked that neither the bishop nor stake president contact them other than to confirm the request was submitted. Different bishops in different states. Both had official letter from the church confirming resignation within a few weeks.
That’s true. I meant if you go the route as contacting the church headquarters directly, then you need a notary but only one—not two. But, yes, if you go through a local leader like a bishop, branch president, or stake president, then you don’t need any notary.
I personally went through the church headquarters with a notary instead of a local leader because:
1. I’ve heard some local leaders make it unnecessarily difficult
2. I was inactive for years before I resigned, so I didn’t even know who the bishop was in my ward and didn’t want to return to church to find out
3. Not the best reason, but I felt too awkward talking to a local leader lol
I guess I could’ve saved some money, but notaries aren’t too expensive so it was overall worth it for me
Glad they got their membership resigned though!
Oh - guess I didn't follow the thread well enough. Definitely true that it can vary on what you get with local leaders. My two that resigned through the bishop sent very firm emails (they are very independent and strong willed young adults). And I do have one child that hasn't resigned through local leadership because she has been inactive for several years and moved so doesn't want to put herself on the radar - just like you didn't. And your reason #3 is totally reasonable. Who wants to talk to someone they don't know for this. It's ridiculous that the church asks for a notarized document to resign but you don't sign any official document when you are baptized. So dumb.
Tell your other inactive child to use quit Mormon. No contact with anyone from the church, they do it for you. The only thing you don’t get is the letter directly from the church, once it goes through, you can get a certificate of resignation from quit Mormon when you log back in. 😁😁😁
Yeah, she knows it's an option. She's busy finishing college (graduating this month) and job hunting so as long as she's not being pestered by members, removing her records aren't a high priority. About the time someone tries to bring her "back into the fold" it will move up the priority list. 😂
You should encourage her! It only takes a couple of minutes to fill out your info on Quit Mormon, and then make an appointment to get it notarized which also isn’t very long. Most banks and credit unions offer it for free if you bank with them, but if your bank doesn’t, post offices do it for a fee (like $10-20). You can also ask on a Facebook neighborhood group who has a notary certificate, and you’ll probably get flooded with comments lol. If she’s worried about it being awkward like I was, trust me they probably don’t care especially if you pay them. If they do, then just go to someone else because there are tons of notaries out there.
My primary reason for resigning over just being inactive was so I wouldn’t continue to inflate membership statistics. And you also sometimes get the letter confirming you resigned and that’s kind of cool. Unfortunately I didn’t get one (or maybe it mailed to an old address), but still worth it! You’ll know it goes through if you can’t login to the church website
I also resigned in my senior year of college while job hunting, so totally worth it! Only takes a little bit and a trip to a notary
I turned mine in and the bishop would not send it in. He said I was to valuable and think about it. I'm going tomorrow and let him know if he doesn't send it and I don't receive a letter I am out. I will sue him and the church.
Once you have given him the document, it’s done and you are out. There is already case law on this, may want to reference that case when you talk to him tomorrow.
True, but if they will keep the boundaries you set without telling them over and over again would be a relief. We already removed our records , moved to another area and still can’t get them to stop dropping off flyers or dropping by.
Did you state in your letter you want no further contact other than to acknowledge that the church processed your resignation? If so, you can hold them accountable, via legal means, for harassment. I don’t recall the court case that is usually referred to for this but if you search you may find it.
I highly suggest the next time they show up, remind them that you’re out, explicitly stated you wanted no further contact (provided your letter said that), and if they come on your property again you will be contacting law enforcement for trespassing.
Or just answer the door naked with a beer and a smoke and ask them if they want to be the third and fourth for naked twister.
Fill in the blanks. Name: God. Address: Your Mom's. Phone: 1(800)-GOD-LITE. Email: [email protected]
Option (3). You will surrender or I will release a small but loyal army of owls that will question all your silly convictions with an echoing, "Woo? Woo hoo?" Every Sunday. They will also eat all your bread, then poop on your stupid vans and SUVs.
I must be on a different list, since separating / divorcing my also non-believing but on the roles spouse, I've never heard a single peep. My name is unique enough there's no way HQ doesn't know where I live to move my records into the new ward and it's been 7 years.
I admit that I “intentionally gave” the church my ex’s address during Covid. He should have been excommunicated due to domestic violence BUT he moved before everything was completed. His family was VERY happy that the church was trying to get him reactivated, after all they believed that I was THE cause for the divorce & NOT him! Now he’s complaining to one of our sons about how much the church won’t leave him alone. The church wouldn’t let me get a temple divorce BUT they will let him get remarried in the temple again!
No judgement on my part. I respect that for females especially the church's policies are the worst. I've stayed on the roles out of respect for my mother so far, although I get closer everyday to resigning as the church continues to demonstrate its true colors.
The only reason why I haven’t bothered to remove my records is because of family drama. I live in the Southern US & I intentionally work weekends as an ICU RN Supervisor. That way I don’t bother to go to church & I can use my job as my excuse. I remarried a non member who literally hates the church because of how I have been treated & he also refuses to allow church visitors which has been helpful. The former Bishop recently told me that I should be praying more so that I can attend church because I’m endowed. He never asked about my husband however!
My FORMER Bishop is one of the best reasons why I LOVE to work weekends! He thinks that he can either love bomb 💣 you & con you into something you don’t want or he will do everything in his power to belittle you in front of others to humiliate you just so that HE can have a better chance of making a “higher” office! Thankfully his own heart had other ideas & he nearly died. Now he smirks at me & tells me that I obviously don’t pray enough for be able to attend church more often!! ASSHOLE!!
Honestly, even when I was a leader I wished that we could get names off our rolls. Otherwise it just looked like we were slacking in our reactivations.
My guess is this form is meant to help with that. Because why would they ask if you are already a number on their rolls? They want to clear out their member list to focus on people that actually might be worth making an effort.
This is exactly what I was thinking. It's hard to get 100% Ministering if 40% of the ward no one has contact with, it would be easier if that 40%'s records just vanished. The top leadership may like inflated numbers, but the local leadership just feels burdened by them. They have fulltime jobs, and have to do all this volunteer work at the church or they're shirking their "priesthood duty".
I have heard of exec secretaries sending all the records that have no active phone number/address to salt lake where they stay in some black hole until someone in salt lake every couple years sends all the records back to the previous known ward. The only permanent fix for local leaders to declutter their ward list if to get people to remove records, but the headquarters wants to make it as hard as reasonably legally possible, so they can still print their numbers in the general conference issue of the ensign/liahona and active members can still gloat at how big and growing the church is.
It does *not* require a letter signed by notarized witnesses. Adding your information at the top and checking the box to have your records removed is sufficient. I would do that and add a note in (3) that says, "Consider this my notice that I want my records removed. Do it immediately or I will take legal action." That ought to get the ball rolling.
Seems far more efficient than the old hands on methods. The efficiency must reflect the numbers of people leaving. So the letter cuts down on time. I mean, who has the time to talk to every inactive ward member?
I just emailed the bishop and asked my name to be taken off the records. It was sorted in a week.
They are definitely trying to stretch out the process here.
Is the Bishop scared to visit you? I don’t understand why he doesn’t reach out, ask if he can visit and then have a conversation. The letter approach gives an impression of not really caring.
I would do the notarized note thing. your local bank probably has a notary person with a stamp. look and see what they can actually do if you want to leave. or just ignore them and then yell when they come to your door.
My favorite line from the letter is “At this point I’m unsure of where I stand with the church.” It’s pretty clear they know where you and you yourself stand. I say shred it then send it back in an envelope. That should get the point across
I actually think the 2nd page wouldn't be too bad. I'd love to get one in the mail so I could fill it out. I don't have the heart to tell the girls who drop off cookies to "fuck off" but I could do it in a letter like that.
Has anyone ever heard of another religious organization trying so hard to keep members in the church? Because I haven't. They just want member's money so bad.
not lately so much
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmalkaldic\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmalkaldic_War)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_Schmalkaldic\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Schmalkaldic_War)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty\_Years%27\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary\_I\_of\_England#Religious\_policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_I_of_England#Religious_policy)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite\_Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite_Wars)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoyard%E2%80%93Waldensian\_wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9rindol_massacre)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian\_Crusade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition\_in\_the\_Netherlands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition_in_the_Netherlands)
When I was ward mission leader, we sent out functionally similar letters. We used them to determine home teaching assignments, missionary harassment campaigns, and as a way to transfer records out of the ward.
Ridiculous. Membership in a church is voluntary. You don’t need a notary, as your true identity is not in question. Just inform him you have resigned and require him to adjust his records accordingly
Been nice if I had gotten one of these instead of being threatened with a “court of love” if I didn’t return or remove my name. Was really nice for family
Yes, this stupid notarization with two signatures makes me furious. They’ll take your money and baptize you in two seconds but the second you wanna leave they make it difficult with the burden on you. Incredibly selfish. I sent my resignation letter five months ago with no response. It was notarized. So I went back and sent a second resignation letter this past week Also notarized but this time I sent it certified mail. I have zero confidence they’re going to get it right or do anything about my membership being removed. It is ridiculous what you have to go through with these idiots
Has any podcaster or YouTuber done a talk on something like this before? I really think this needs to get out to show never-mos how inactive members/those one the fence are treated, and you will end up being treated when you decide to not go to cult on Sundays and exercise your free agency by living life on your terms, rather than theirs. You don't get treated as God's children, instead you get treated like an "unworthy" peasant by the Sheriff of Nottingham collecting taxes for Prince John. It's very entitled of them to demand an explanation for you and your life decisions that are none of their business. The cult and its leaders (paid and unpaid) don't treat you like a fellow human being or a child of God, they are more like the greedy, lazy, crotchety landlord constantly surveiling you. They loathe intelligence and independent thought.
(Edited because my phone slipped out of my hands and I inadvertently hit ", reply", but I wasn't finished 😕 )
The lowercase i loooll.
And assumption that you’re unsure of where you stand?
Just read the letter they sent to you and it’s brutal. It’s clearly from the ward clerk for a manipulative reason too. Trying to “soften” it.
I would be inclined to take quotes from their original letter in your reply.
“Answering Brother Manipulator’s words, following were not to ‘my liking’ “
Does the church send prospective bishops to bishop school where they will learn all the rules and regulations or does the appointing authority say "your it" and then hope they know everything that they are supposed to know about bishopping?
I would reply with "I'm not sure this is coming from the church, please resend your request with Two notarized confirmation of your identity and validation from the corporation of the president of the church of Jesus christ of latter day saints that you are legally authorized to represent the church and be able to process the removing of records."
The instructions on name removal are inconsistent with the church's own policies as stated in section 32.14.9 of the General Handbook. Your bishop is full of it.
The most important point about this whole form is that *all of these options are happening!* These are things members and former members do, and they're doing it to such an extent that TSCC has listed these things and are anticipating them. They would *never in a million years* acknowledge that quitting is even an option if it wasn't a huge problem for them. But what this form actually does, is that it provides a path of least resistance for inactive members that's still a win for the church. You're right that they don't need a notarized quit letter, but what they're hoping to accomplish with this form is for people to check the second-to-last option instead! They want people to go "oh bother" at the thought of notarizing something, and instead choose to remain a "no contact" member, because that is more valuable to them than a non-member. They're gonna treat you as if you've quit, but will use you to inflate their numbers, and of course there's a possibility of a re-activation project in the future where they're gonna try to rope you in again. However, they absolutely can't stop themselves from their usual self-important smug bullshit, which is why it starts with "Dear Bishop," and not "Hey John the Dentist,". Gotta keep up appearances of inflated importance!
This analysis is spot on.
>However, they absolutely can't stop themselves from their usual self-important smug bullshit, which is why it starts with "Dear Bishop," and not "Hey John the Dentist,". Gotta keep up appearances of inflated importance! This is unfair, IMO. They are using "Dear Bishop" because it is his title in the context of this organization. In a class, you call your professor "Professor," even if you know him personally. It's the same here. The rest of your analysis is really good, but I think this last paragraph is unfair.
Aw the philosophies of men mingled with the church handbook.
Potato potato
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/32-repentance-and-membership-councils?lang=eng#title_number88 "If the member still wants to resign Church membership, he or she gives the bishop a written, signed request. The bishop submits the request to the stake president through LCR. The stake president then reviews and submits the request through that system. Leaders should act on requests promptly." "A person can also resign membership by sending a signed, notarized request to Church headquarters." If your bishop knows you, no notary is required. At most it needs a notary, no witnesses. Idiots. https://www.getmeofftherecords.com/
Very true. The MFMC/TSCC tries to make leaving as difficult as possible so that people won’t do it. I did the quitmormon.com route during Covid and went to my bank via an appointment just to get a notary.
Me too. And later I saw the lady from the bank. (We live in a very small town) and she told me that her notarizing our resignation letters, helped push her forward with her own. Who knew!?
"Leaders continue to minister to those who resign their membership unless they request no contact." Isn't that harassment? No means no
Wait. What?
It's towards the end of that section in the handbook
I went and read it. Holy shit. So they let you off the records, but they don’t promise to leave you alone. This is blowing my mind tonight, even though it really shouldn’t anymore.
It's curious to me because I recently had a similar encounter where the new bishop emailed and I told him I already resigned and to fuck off and he proceeded to condescend to tell me how my wife and kids should resign also. Very similar energy to this so I wonder if they are upselling resignations to improve some metric
I had some misshies come to my door once. They told me I could easily resign from the church. ( I had been nothing but kind to them. ) The last thing I want to do is push the eject button on their suggestion. Dang it all to heck I push it when *I* choose to push it.
This is an interesting approach. I get the impression the church wants you all in or all out now. Black and white, and not gray anymore. Perhaps they are getting frustrated with the direction of ex-mormon sentiment.
Yes, I've heard of this by other people. I think some areas just clear out the weeds from time to time.
What a prick to suggest your wife and kids leave. His job is to do the opposite. It’s just horribly rude…
It makes no sense to me.
It's just him baiting you - for him, no matter what you do, he wins. They stay members? Win for him. They leave? Well, he told you to have them leave, so win for him. These sorts are intolerable, and it's best to just ignore them. They want attention.
I would imagine they're wanting to up the percentage of active members in their ward. By getting inactive people off their lists, it makes their numbers look better.
That’s awesome! I love that they are encouraging people to resign!
Well, if your wife and kids are hanging out with you and not at church…They want to improve the percentage of attendance “active members” metric. That’s my guess, anyway.
Are they trying reverse psychology now? We know they’ve long used psychological manipulation tactics.
TWO notarized witnesses?! That's bullshit.
Whay do they mean by notarized witness?
Someone who is a certified notary public agent. Basically they witness the signing of important documents
In essence, you have to pay a public agent to get a fancy legal stamp on the letter you send to the bishop. Two signatures cost twice as much. 32.14.9 of the General Handbook only requires a notarized signature if you elect to resign directly through church HQ. Signing your resignation letter and sending it by certified mail to your bishop/ward membership clerk is sufficient in this case to be compliant to the holy handbook... Unless someone here knows different. I'm perfectly fine being corrected. Honestly, it just sounds like your bishop is a raging dick on a power trip.
Most banks have notaries who will provide their services for free for their customers
A lot of banks and credit unions will notarize signatures for free even if people aren’t customers.
Same with companies you do business with. I will notarize anything for employees and customers for free. I also notarize resignations for free. It would be my honor to do so. Normally all I notarize is loan documents.
My credit union will print it for me, too, if I ask. Yay GoldenWest.
... And I consider myself myself happy to be corrected! I will check with my Credit Union next time I need something done. 😁
A notary is someone that can affirm it is you signing the document. I believe the church is doing this for two reasons: 1) They want to make sure it is actually you signing the document, and someone isn't removing your records by mistake. 2) They want to make you think twice about leaving by formalizing it.
I have never heard of two notarized witnesses. That’s one more than I needed to buy a house
This cracks me up. Clearly it’s becoming quite challenging for them to handle all the levels of apostasy in their midst.
I don't know who put this together, but this has retired middle manager of a government or corporate office written all over it.
You must be touched by how personal and heartfelt the response letter is, it’s like it came from a corporation instead of a church.😎
Also the two witnesses must lay dead in the streets of Sodom for three and a half days..
This was my favourite comment thanks for the chuckle
Fuck this corporate bullshit. Legally you can leave whenever you want to. These people don't own you and you don't owe them a response. Make it easy. https://quitmormon.com/
I don't mean to defend the church, but it looks like they are making good faith effort to see what this guy wants. If he wants no contact this would be a perfect time to make this known!
This is so dumb. Nobody owes the church anything. You don’t need to respond to their requests and jump through their hoops. It’s not that hard to figure out who is going to Church and who isn’t. If you need to send those letters anyway, the ones that don’t respond, just take them off your list
Boom. The most they deserve is the letter saying: “I’m out, fuck you”
And be sure to add: "This decision is one of my free agencies."
I agree that it's a good faith effort. It would have been better if it was framed as "your request has been processed. If you wish to maintain contact, please return this form. Otherwise you will be removed from contact".
And not coupled with that first page calling them to repentance
Yep. That part was not in good faith. It was bullshit manipulation.
If that's what a form letter is to you then that's cool.
They only care about their numbers and having you on their roll looks bad. Either get with the program or gtfo. Of course they want your money but they also want good clean faith promoting records.
Thoughts, “Have you ever wondered why fitness memberships get a bad rap? It is because they are so hard to cancel. In this case membership cancellation is made difficult because your centibillion organization believes actions and beliefs of an 8 year old who at the time believed in Santa Clause, the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy are binding and that this 8 year old made an independent eternal binding decision based on having all the facts and not having been unduly influenced by caretakers. It is now as an adult that I realize why Mormons consider themselves a peculiar people.”
“I wanna quit the gym!!”
😂
Aaaa ... that would be hectobillion. (Centi is 0.01, Hecto 10\^2) A sales process that is structured to trick people into buying but makes it difficult to leave is called a "dark pattern." When used, short-term retention increases but causes long-term damage to the organization's reputation and member relationships. So, remember, you lost your individual agency at baptism and are compelled to conform to *moral* agency (following the Covenant Path).
Strange… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_centibillionaires I am not disagreeing but see both being used. I have always heard the term centimillionaire for someone with other $100 million and assumed the same applies.
At some point the church might encourage resignations generally. Hear me out. In the near future, the church will no longer be able to hide that its numbers are shrinking. As soon as the data start getting ugly, it's conceivable the church will launch a "wheat and tares" program. The initiative will send active members to less-actives encouraging them to either return or remove their records. Here are the benefits: (1) The decline in membership numbers can be interpreted as evidence of the success of an inspired program rather than a general decline. (2) No harm is done to the church by removing inactive records, because these members weren't donating their time or money anyway. (3) The Active members can further entrench themselves as the elect.
This is such a cynical take, it's depressing, because you're absolutely right. The Q15 will find some way to spin the loss of memberships as inspired, and the members will eat it up like that stupid fast that didn't end the pandemic (or did it, just 2 years later??).
Don't for get an overriding "end of days" over all of it. "It was revealed that in the latter-days, many of the Lord's anointed would turn away from the church."
LOL don't give them ideas
True, but at least older research had shown it was easier to reactivate than baptize anew. That could be changing.
But their numbers will never show it because as long as you are on the books you count towards the totals and since they don’t actually erase your records when you have them “removed” (they just stop pushing them out) they could still be counting everyone as their “membership”.
Funny thing about having a publicly visible ward directory, someone could just fill in the Ward Secretary's own personal contact info before mailing this back to him.
Omg genius 🔥
Here is the letter that finally got my bishop off of my ass. > Dear [Bishop], >This letter is to inform you that I have terminated my membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Please remove the name [your full name] from the records of the LDS Church immediately, as dictated in the General Handbook of instructions. >Birthdate: >Membership Record Number: >I understand that the withdrawal of my name cancels the effect of baptism and removes any Priesthood or Temple blessings. >I demand that you promptly complete the form "Request For Administrative Action" and that the 30 day holding period be waived. >I will NOT participate in church disciplinary councils for I have done nothing wrong and I have no unresolved transgressions. >I do NOT want to be contacted by anyone except by mail confirming that my name has been removed from the records. This includes Home Teachers, Visiting Teachers, and anyone else. >Should the church refuse to remove my membership, I will seek legal counsel. >Signed, >[Your name] Throw his response form out and just send him this. Best of luck!
They were doing so good until the resignation must be notarized thing. Progress
I would love to have my name removed, but that would mean making contact and they haven't found me in 14 years.... I feel like I may as well let it die?
Go to Quit Mormon. They have the forms you need. No contact with anyone except the notary at the bank, who will look you at you with a grin that says "Why do you need to get a notary for this?" and laugh. It's another nail in the coffin. Every Ex-Mormon a missionary. Let it die, and you're counted as an active member until your 110th birthday, which you aren't.
Thank you!!!
Ummmmmm…why care. If someone doesn’t go to church and doesn’t want attention leave them alone. So sorry you have to go through this. This seems ridiculous. I would not respond.
And “why care” on their part not yours.
> why care The church is mostly run like a fast food franchise controlled by MBAs. These organizations split their customers in roughly 3-5 categories, and the purpose of the letter is to put the recipient in to one of the categories. It looks like they want to split members of record who don't attend into 4 groups: do not attend but want to attend, do not want to attend but want contact, do not want to attend and do not want contact, and want to resign. It's poorly written and printed, but standard for a business unit like McDonald's franchise or mormon ward.
I did not mean why care on the op’s part. Just frustrating the local church care so much that they are wanting them to fill out a survey. Just super inappropriate to ask you me human who has not been to church about their future intentions.
They merged two forms together. The font changes 2/3 through. Weird.
Probably made by the same semi-literate secretary…
Especially with the lowercase "I"
This gives off elementary school note vibes. I could see it going like this. Do you like me? Check one: Yes 🔲 No ✅ Reason: I hate the church.
To hell with missionaries… just send a letter to every person on Earth. "If you want to be a Mormon, check this box: 🔲"
Even my TBM dad who is ward clerk thinks these things are stupid. His opinion is if you want to go you will. If you don’t you won’t. I am thankful he finally got to this point (mom too). But yeah - even active members think this is weird and wrong.
When I was in the ward council, the bishop would sometimes say "we need to visit so-and-so family and let them know when and where church is." One time it was for a family that literally lived a half-block away from the church building.
Literally all they’d have to do is pay attention to the people around them. People who are enthusiastically involved want to be, people who aren’t probably don’t, people who are just names on paper unknown to anyone in the “active” congregation should be left the hell alone. Why do they have to be so gawd-awful socially inept?
Because they believe that they are their "brother's keeper". If they are not doing all they can to save their fellow man and woman then the condemnation is upon their (the TBMs) heads. This is what the church has taught in the past. It breeds insufferable nosy busy-bodies.
“Written letter signed by two notarized witnesses” wtf is this
Not following policy in their handbook is what that is. Even if you send a resignation to HQ or use quit Mormon, they only require the notary to sign as the witness. If you state to your bishop you’re out with a letter, they will try to prevent that but if you say I’m out and want no further contact other than acknowledging your off the rolls and no longer a member they haven’t been pushing a meeting if you are precise and clear in your resignation letter.
I wonder if there is a third letter with a fast offering envelope attached!?!?
Quite amusing!
They gave you an envelope, was it pre addressed and stamped or do you have to pay for postage?
Your response could be to simply ignore it and not respond. That’s a response.
At first I thought this was great. An easy way to tell them you want your name off the records, but saying you need two notarized witnesses is ridiculous
And against their own policy….
Wrong, you only need one notarized witness
Notarized document not necessary. Two of my children sent an email to the bishop requesting their records be removed. They asked that neither the bishop nor stake president contact them other than to confirm the request was submitted. Different bishops in different states. Both had official letter from the church confirming resignation within a few weeks.
That’s true. I meant if you go the route as contacting the church headquarters directly, then you need a notary but only one—not two. But, yes, if you go through a local leader like a bishop, branch president, or stake president, then you don’t need any notary. I personally went through the church headquarters with a notary instead of a local leader because: 1. I’ve heard some local leaders make it unnecessarily difficult 2. I was inactive for years before I resigned, so I didn’t even know who the bishop was in my ward and didn’t want to return to church to find out 3. Not the best reason, but I felt too awkward talking to a local leader lol I guess I could’ve saved some money, but notaries aren’t too expensive so it was overall worth it for me Glad they got their membership resigned though!
Oh - guess I didn't follow the thread well enough. Definitely true that it can vary on what you get with local leaders. My two that resigned through the bishop sent very firm emails (they are very independent and strong willed young adults). And I do have one child that hasn't resigned through local leadership because she has been inactive for several years and moved so doesn't want to put herself on the radar - just like you didn't. And your reason #3 is totally reasonable. Who wants to talk to someone they don't know for this. It's ridiculous that the church asks for a notarized document to resign but you don't sign any official document when you are baptized. So dumb.
Tell your other inactive child to use quit Mormon. No contact with anyone from the church, they do it for you. The only thing you don’t get is the letter directly from the church, once it goes through, you can get a certificate of resignation from quit Mormon when you log back in. 😁😁😁
Yeah, she knows it's an option. She's busy finishing college (graduating this month) and job hunting so as long as she's not being pestered by members, removing her records aren't a high priority. About the time someone tries to bring her "back into the fold" it will move up the priority list. 😂
You should encourage her! It only takes a couple of minutes to fill out your info on Quit Mormon, and then make an appointment to get it notarized which also isn’t very long. Most banks and credit unions offer it for free if you bank with them, but if your bank doesn’t, post offices do it for a fee (like $10-20). You can also ask on a Facebook neighborhood group who has a notary certificate, and you’ll probably get flooded with comments lol. If she’s worried about it being awkward like I was, trust me they probably don’t care especially if you pay them. If they do, then just go to someone else because there are tons of notaries out there. My primary reason for resigning over just being inactive was so I wouldn’t continue to inflate membership statistics. And you also sometimes get the letter confirming you resigned and that’s kind of cool. Unfortunately I didn’t get one (or maybe it mailed to an old address), but still worth it! You’ll know it goes through if you can’t login to the church website I also resigned in my senior year of college while job hunting, so totally worth it! Only takes a little bit and a trip to a notary
I’m a bit of a formatting snob, and the use of two different fonts in a clear copy-paste is killing me. At least there’s no Comic Sans or Papyrus.
I turned mine in and the bishop would not send it in. He said I was to valuable and think about it. I'm going tomorrow and let him know if he doesn't send it and I don't receive a letter I am out. I will sue him and the church.
Once you have given him the document, it’s done and you are out. There is already case law on this, may want to reference that case when you talk to him tomorrow.
What is the law
https://law.justia.com/cases/oklahoma/supreme-court/1989/10494.html
True, but if they will keep the boundaries you set without telling them over and over again would be a relief. We already removed our records , moved to another area and still can’t get them to stop dropping off flyers or dropping by.
Did you state in your letter you want no further contact other than to acknowledge that the church processed your resignation? If so, you can hold them accountable, via legal means, for harassment. I don’t recall the court case that is usually referred to for this but if you search you may find it. I highly suggest the next time they show up, remind them that you’re out, explicitly stated you wanted no further contact (provided your letter said that), and if they come on your property again you will be contacting law enforcement for trespassing. Or just answer the door naked with a beer and a smoke and ask them if they want to be the third and fourth for naked twister.
Hey there fellow Clark County resident!
Clark County resident here to
Fill in the blanks. Name: God. Address: Your Mom's. Phone: 1(800)-GOD-LITE. Email: [email protected] Option (3). You will surrender or I will release a small but loyal army of owls that will question all your silly convictions with an echoing, "Woo? Woo hoo?" Every Sunday. They will also eat all your bread, then poop on your stupid vans and SUVs.
I must be on a different list, since separating / divorcing my also non-believing but on the roles spouse, I've never heard a single peep. My name is unique enough there's no way HQ doesn't know where I live to move my records into the new ward and it's been 7 years.
I admit that I “intentionally gave” the church my ex’s address during Covid. He should have been excommunicated due to domestic violence BUT he moved before everything was completed. His family was VERY happy that the church was trying to get him reactivated, after all they believed that I was THE cause for the divorce & NOT him! Now he’s complaining to one of our sons about how much the church won’t leave him alone. The church wouldn’t let me get a temple divorce BUT they will let him get remarried in the temple again!
No judgement on my part. I respect that for females especially the church's policies are the worst. I've stayed on the roles out of respect for my mother so far, although I get closer everyday to resigning as the church continues to demonstrate its true colors.
The only reason why I haven’t bothered to remove my records is because of family drama. I live in the Southern US & I intentionally work weekends as an ICU RN Supervisor. That way I don’t bother to go to church & I can use my job as my excuse. I remarried a non member who literally hates the church because of how I have been treated & he also refuses to allow church visitors which has been helpful. The former Bishop recently told me that I should be praying more so that I can attend church because I’m endowed. He never asked about my husband however!
EYEROLL 🙄
My FORMER Bishop is one of the best reasons why I LOVE to work weekends! He thinks that he can either love bomb 💣 you & con you into something you don’t want or he will do everything in his power to belittle you in front of others to humiliate you just so that HE can have a better chance of making a “higher” office! Thankfully his own heart had other ideas & he nearly died. Now he smirks at me & tells me that I obviously don’t pray enough for be able to attend church more often!! ASSHOLE!!
You don’t have to call them females, you can just say “women.”
I love the typos and “i wish” not being capitalized. So profesh ✨
This is just all bizarre to me. Since when did church leaders start doing this?
I think you should wipe your ass with it and send it back.
Watch, if you don’t respond they’ll just default to contacting you regarding all those things
Did the return letter already have postage? Curious how much money they are putting into this project.
Just checked. It does.
Wow that's just wild. What a waste of money and time. But hey, you got a free pre-stamped envelope out of it!
It's pre-addressed to the clerk
They will not honor a no contact request. I finally had to remove my records to get them to leave me alone.
If you like me check yes. If you don't check no.
Flip the page over, tell him how you really feel, put it in the envelope, send it and never look back
Not one but two witnesses need to be involved in leaving a church? Wow.
No. You don’t need a notarized document if you are going through bishop/stake leadership. This guy is overstepping and going against policy.
Does seam like they are very interested in saving the lost sheep if they have a box for resignation.
False. You don’t need two notarized witnesses.
Mormon leadership loves typing up forms and agendas.
You left the ward name visible, in case you're concerned with doxing yourself.
Thanks for telling me. I didn't intend to, but I think I've posted elsewhere about my hometown
I'm shocked they're making it so easy to resign.
Oh, just saw the included notarized witness requirement. But still surprised that option is even listed.
The bishop is overstepping and going against policy. If you resign through them or stake leadership you don’t need any notarized documents.
Sounds like a clerk is trying to get things moving. He wants better records. It’s a bit impersonal. Think Jesus sent letters like this to followers?
Honestly, even when I was a leader I wished that we could get names off our rolls. Otherwise it just looked like we were slacking in our reactivations. My guess is this form is meant to help with that. Because why would they ask if you are already a number on their rolls? They want to clear out their member list to focus on people that actually might be worth making an effort.
This is exactly what I was thinking. It's hard to get 100% Ministering if 40% of the ward no one has contact with, it would be easier if that 40%'s records just vanished. The top leadership may like inflated numbers, but the local leadership just feels burdened by them. They have fulltime jobs, and have to do all this volunteer work at the church or they're shirking their "priesthood duty". I have heard of exec secretaries sending all the records that have no active phone number/address to salt lake where they stay in some black hole until someone in salt lake every couple years sends all the records back to the previous known ward. The only permanent fix for local leaders to declutter their ward list if to get people to remove records, but the headquarters wants to make it as hard as reasonably legally possible, so they can still print their numbers in the general conference issue of the ensign/liahona and active members can still gloat at how big and growing the church is.
It does *not* require a letter signed by notarized witnesses. Adding your information at the top and checking the box to have your records removed is sufficient. I would do that and add a note in (3) that says, "Consider this my notice that I want my records removed. Do it immediately or I will take legal action." That ought to get the ball rolling.
The only witness you need is a notary. Source: I am a utah notary
Where's the option for them to eat a bowl of dicks?
Seems far more efficient than the old hands on methods. The efficiency must reflect the numbers of people leaving. So the letter cuts down on time. I mean, who has the time to talk to every inactive ward member?
Seems rather corporate and impersonal.
I just emailed the bishop and asked my name to be taken off the records. It was sorted in a week. They are definitely trying to stretch out the process here.
Is the Bishop scared to visit you? I don’t understand why he doesn’t reach out, ask if he can visit and then have a conversation. The letter approach gives an impression of not really caring.
I would do the notarized note thing. your local bank probably has a notary person with a stamp. look and see what they can actually do if you want to leave. or just ignore them and then yell when they come to your door.
“Do you love me? Check Yes or No”. 🙄
Two notarized witnesses? Total b.s. and not any requirement anywhere.
Check all the boxes and send it back with a notarized letter and 3 drops of your blood
[удалено]
Other than the violation of the handbook…..
My favorite line from the letter is “At this point I’m unsure of where I stand with the church.” It’s pretty clear they know where you and you yourself stand. I say shred it then send it back in an envelope. That should get the point across
Decatur Alabama? Neighbor?
Different decatur :(
I actually think the 2nd page wouldn't be too bad. I'd love to get one in the mail so I could fill it out. I don't have the heart to tell the girls who drop off cookies to "fuck off" but I could do it in a letter like that.
That seems pretty cool they are asking! Good on them!
All Bishops should send out a similar form to inactive members
I would return it in the provided envelope completely blank.
I’d return it with a copy of the CES letter
Ghost him or roast him! Don't feel obligated to write him back. Get a lawyer?
This form has the advantage of ensuring they understand your expectations/wants/desires. So credit to the ward for that at least.
Has anyone ever heard of another religious organization trying so hard to keep members in the church? Because I haven't. They just want member's money so bad.
not lately so much [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmalkaldic\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmalkaldic_War) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second\_Schmalkaldic\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Schmalkaldic_War) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty\_Years%27\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary\_I\_of\_England#Religious\_policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_I_of_England#Religious_policy) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite\_Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussite_Wars) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoyard%E2%80%93Waldensian\_wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9rindol_massacre) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian\_Crusade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition\_in\_the\_Netherlands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition_in_the_Netherlands)
Most other Church’s determine membership by attendance. It’s a much more real number than the BS shell game the LDS Church plays.
When I was ward mission leader, we sent out functionally similar letters. We used them to determine home teaching assignments, missionary harassment campaigns, and as a way to transfer records out of the ward.
All this has done is let you know the letter they sent was cookie cutter and impersonal
Minus the cookies though 😕
Ridiculous. Membership in a church is voluntary. You don’t need a notary, as your true identity is not in question. Just inform him you have resigned and require him to adjust his records accordingly
Been nice if I had gotten one of these instead of being threatened with a “court of love” if I didn’t return or remove my name. Was really nice for family
You’re on their radar. This is irrelevant, you’re going to be contacted now until you come back or they kick you out.
Balls!
I would select option #3 with the reply of "Go f*** yourself "Mitch" or whatever the bishop's first name is.
I wonder if your bishop is getting pressure from the new stake presidency to reach out to “inactives”
I had zero notary interaction when I turned mine in. What is with that?
No clue. I don't think it's supposed to be necessary.
Draw a middle finger the in third option.
I wonder if people who resign aren't included in the tithing settlement.
Or case
Lord, this is one bizarre bishop...
Fucking shred it, and maybe remark about the infantilizing nature of that form fillable response in your response.
"Unsubscribe all"
Shred it. Put it in a zip-lock baggie, put a post-it note on it that reads "eat a bag of dicks" and send it all back in the provided envelope.
Yes, this stupid notarization with two signatures makes me furious. They’ll take your money and baptize you in two seconds but the second you wanna leave they make it difficult with the burden on you. Incredibly selfish. I sent my resignation letter five months ago with no response. It was notarized. So I went back and sent a second resignation letter this past week Also notarized but this time I sent it certified mail. I have zero confidence they’re going to get it right or do anything about my membership being removed. It is ridiculous what you have to go through with these idiots
I would recommend option 2 B, regardless of what needs to be done to achieve it. Once I had my name removed they never bothered me again.
Has any podcaster or YouTuber done a talk on something like this before? I really think this needs to get out to show never-mos how inactive members/those one the fence are treated, and you will end up being treated when you decide to not go to cult on Sundays and exercise your free agency by living life on your terms, rather than theirs. You don't get treated as God's children, instead you get treated like an "unworthy" peasant by the Sheriff of Nottingham collecting taxes for Prince John. It's very entitled of them to demand an explanation for you and your life decisions that are none of their business. The cult and its leaders (paid and unpaid) don't treat you like a fellow human being or a child of God, they are more like the greedy, lazy, crotchety landlord constantly surveiling you. They loathe intelligence and independent thought. (Edited because my phone slipped out of my hands and I inadvertently hit ", reply", but I wasn't finished 😕 )
The lowercase i loooll. And assumption that you’re unsure of where you stand? Just read the letter they sent to you and it’s brutal. It’s clearly from the ward clerk for a manipulative reason too. Trying to “soften” it. I would be inclined to take quotes from their original letter in your reply. “Answering Brother Manipulator’s words, following were not to ‘my liking’ “
Will you be my bf, check yes or no 
Apollo's golden butt cheeks! They're requiring TWO notarized witnesses now?! Desperate much MORMONS? (Victory for Satan!)
It's the lowercase, "i" in the first line for me. 😂
Correlation at its finest
It’s like one of those stressful exams with options A, B, C, D, E, FGHIJK, but ALSOOOO select all that apply and choose carefully the correct answer.
How I would respond is with my own letter addressed to the bishop by first name. And I’d write on the form they sent “see letter for my response”
This is literally insane. But also the lack of cohesive capitalization is annoying 😅
Does the church send prospective bishops to bishop school where they will learn all the rules and regulations or does the appointing authority say "your it" and then hope they know everything that they are supposed to know about bishopping?
As far as I know they might get some training but there's no bishop school or anything. It's just a member of the congregation
Thanks for the answer. That may be why some bishops are misinformed on church policy.
I would reply with "I'm not sure this is coming from the church, please resend your request with Two notarized confirmation of your identity and validation from the corporation of the president of the church of Jesus christ of latter day saints that you are legally authorized to represent the church and be able to process the removing of records."