That’s awful! Sounds traumatic for the poor little guy.
I have personally witnessed a baptism where a father grabbed his daughter and as she screamed “No!” he basically just slammed her under the water, loudly exclaiming “Baptized!” As he yanked her back up. She was gasping for air. She was terrified of the water and it was cold, too. People had to comfort her after, she was miserable during much of the rest of the meeting.
And yet, it was all portrayed by the adults in the room as a happy occasion, one where we could all be proud of the little one’s courage and faith.
I’m so upset looking back on it.
This kid’s consent was directly ignored and he was physically forced. He had his reasons, stated that he didn’t want to, and was forced anyway. I wouldn’t be able to look at anyone involved the same way ever again, and if the kid has similar fears and preferences on the future, I hope he actually has a say. Children in our culture have so little autonomy it’s shocking
That poor child! This will be a nightmarish memory all his life. How the heck did they phrase the traditional announcement over the pulpit that the kid "decided" to get baptized?
This kid is going to remember what happened to him for the rest of his life. For better or for worse, he’s going to remember it, and it’s going to affect and impact how he manages his anxiety and his boundaries going forward for the rest of his life.
To me it’s like this; I was baptized as an infant and I cried and screamed. Family smiled and laughed. This is common in other Christian churches. BUT, critically, Mormons turn their prideful noses up at those baptisms as not being “consensual”. But it’s not as if an 8 year old has any ability to say no either. As demonstrated by your friend’s kid and his experience.
Well at least this kid did have the ability to say no. It just didn't matter. And I actually do know a few cases where a child has, for whatever reason, told their parents they don't want to be baptised. The one case in my own ward many years ago caused much confusion and speculation among members, not least because the family wasn't super active. Later in another ward, there was a brand-new-member family and one of their children got a baptism set up just a few weeks later but couldn't go through with it due to (probably similar) anxiety about water. There were a few long moments of awkwardness with a couple of attempts but no go. So the baptism was cancelled.
I guess this might be a cultural thing. Some people take the whole consent thing seriously once it's on the table.
Eight years is still ridiculously young to make that kind of a commitment ofc.
It wasn't until I started looking into many mental health and general relationship resources that I realized that I didn't view children as individuals, but as an extension of their parents or their family system. Your friends probably are truly kind people, but most church members don't(or can't) acknowledge that their kids really are individuals and should be granted autonomy and respect, just like we do with other adults? Would you pick up another adult and force their participation in a freaky ritual? Then don't do it to kids either.
This treatment of children, unfortunately, is not limited to the church or other denominations; there's a good deal of it baked into society in general. Giving adults autonomy and respect is something that we are still struggling with.
Hopefully, a forced baptism wouldn't be valid, that pool kid had been failed by those very people who he should be able to rely on most. OP, this isn't funny, it's horrifying and you need to find better friends.
Hell of a story. I feel so bad for 'Squirt' though. That is gonna stay with him, likely for the rest of his life. On the bright side, it should make him hate T$CC, so maybe it's a win in the long run. 🤔
Similar situation with my now 25yo son. Your description sounds like him at that age. I was basically out but hadn’t resigned yet was open about my disbelief but attended to help wife with kids and such when he was coming up on 8 years old.
His baptism was tentatively set and I think the week before the ward leadership wanted to ‘introduce’ those about to get baptized and have them come up to the stand during sacrament meeting. My son fought it all the way and collapsed to the floor in the middle of the aisle between benches so he’d have to be dragged if going any further as my wife tried to cajole him into just going up front. That was enough for wife to decide he just wasn’t ready to be baptized and to delay and put it off.
The ripple effect was that my in-laws cancelled their trip to come attend his birthday since he wasn’t getting baptized now and other relatives ghosted us for the same reason. His 8th birthday, despite getting a bouncy house and all was pathetically under attended and kind of depressing and was a significant milestone in my wife joining me on the way out of the church.
We never did reschedule my son’s baptism either.
Hindsight 20/20 in these situations is always revealing as well. Looking at it— the lack of focus on people but on events church prescribed. I would have rocked the bouncy house with you 👊🏼
That’s horrific. As a TBM, I had made the decision to never to force my kids participation in the church because I wanted to honor their agency. So when my oldest son was 8 and we asked him if he wanted to get baptized, and he was terrified because he had heard that Satan has no power over little kids before their baptism, but could get them afterward. So I corrected him that Satan couldn’t get tempt him before he was 8, but that baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost would help protect him from Satan. And then asked him again if he wanted that, and he agreed to it. It’s embarrassing to me that I thought I was actually giving him a choice by saying: “Do you want to get baptized or do you want Satan to get you?” The notion that an 8 year old indoctrinated from birth can consent to a lifelong commitment like that is crazy already, but I can’t imagine forcibly baptizing them against their will.
i remember being 8 and bawling for at least a half hour at the entrance to the font - thankfully, no one forced me in and i did feel as if i was choosing to, but clearly i had hesitations
There is no way they could have waited, even one week.
How else could he function as a normal child knowing he didn't covenant to serve a full time mission? /s
Ironic right? Age 8 is the consent for baptism… always seems ridiculous because we all just went along for the most part.
Now an 8 year old has legit reasons they aren’t ready for that…. Oh, sorry Johnny, you are getting dunked today. Screw your consent… we cannot mess up our Parent Church Résumé.
Did the parents still make the obligatory social media post about how they were so proud of their child for *choosing* to be baptized?
That’s awful! Sounds traumatic for the poor little guy. I have personally witnessed a baptism where a father grabbed his daughter and as she screamed “No!” he basically just slammed her under the water, loudly exclaiming “Baptized!” As he yanked her back up. She was gasping for air. She was terrified of the water and it was cold, too. People had to comfort her after, she was miserable during much of the rest of the meeting. And yet, it was all portrayed by the adults in the room as a happy occasion, one where we could all be proud of the little one’s courage and faith. I’m so upset looking back on it.
a truly traumatizing experience for that child, i’m sure
I think it probably was. At the time, I was so naive, I just laughed through it like most everybody else.
This kid’s consent was directly ignored and he was physically forced. He had his reasons, stated that he didn’t want to, and was forced anyway. I wouldn’t be able to look at anyone involved the same way ever again, and if the kid has similar fears and preferences on the future, I hope he actually has a say. Children in our culture have so little autonomy it’s shocking
Well I mean his eternal salvation is at stake. Whatever it takes. But we’re so proud of little juniors choice to be baptized.
I completely agree with this take. And when children have no say, they turn into adults with trust issues.
This is disturbing. So this little kid was physically forced to be baptized. Good thing we all get to “choose”
That poor child! This will be a nightmarish memory all his life. How the heck did they phrase the traditional announcement over the pulpit that the kid "decided" to get baptized?
This kid is going to remember what happened to him for the rest of his life. For better or for worse, he’s going to remember it, and it’s going to affect and impact how he manages his anxiety and his boundaries going forward for the rest of his life.
To me it’s like this; I was baptized as an infant and I cried and screamed. Family smiled and laughed. This is common in other Christian churches. BUT, critically, Mormons turn their prideful noses up at those baptisms as not being “consensual”. But it’s not as if an 8 year old has any ability to say no either. As demonstrated by your friend’s kid and his experience.
Well at least this kid did have the ability to say no. It just didn't matter. And I actually do know a few cases where a child has, for whatever reason, told their parents they don't want to be baptised. The one case in my own ward many years ago caused much confusion and speculation among members, not least because the family wasn't super active. Later in another ward, there was a brand-new-member family and one of their children got a baptism set up just a few weeks later but couldn't go through with it due to (probably similar) anxiety about water. There were a few long moments of awkwardness with a couple of attempts but no go. So the baptism was cancelled. I guess this might be a cultural thing. Some people take the whole consent thing seriously once it's on the table. Eight years is still ridiculously young to make that kind of a commitment ofc.
It wasn't until I started looking into many mental health and general relationship resources that I realized that I didn't view children as individuals, but as an extension of their parents or their family system. Your friends probably are truly kind people, but most church members don't(or can't) acknowledge that their kids really are individuals and should be granted autonomy and respect, just like we do with other adults? Would you pick up another adult and force their participation in a freaky ritual? Then don't do it to kids either.
This treatment of children, unfortunately, is not limited to the church or other denominations; there's a good deal of it baked into society in general. Giving adults autonomy and respect is something that we are still struggling with.
The part about the clapping and cheering; WTF?! Even my TBM wife would be horrified by this.
Hopefully, a forced baptism wouldn't be valid, that pool kid had been failed by those very people who he should be able to rely on most. OP, this isn't funny, it's horrifying and you need to find better friends.
wE dOn’T bApTiZe BaBiEs So ThEy CaN cHoOsE
So much for free agency. 😒
They care more about their checklist than individual welfare
"Good job squirt! You started the covenant path and can't leave it! We're so proud of you for making this choice!"
Hell of a story. I feel so bad for 'Squirt' though. That is gonna stay with him, likely for the rest of his life. On the bright side, it should make him hate T$CC, so maybe it's a win in the long run. 🤔
I've got 50 ish cousins I've seen it many times. It happens 10-15% of the time.
Yikes!
Horrible for the parents to put church over their child
Wtf, that's messed up, that one doesn't count!
Similar situation with my now 25yo son. Your description sounds like him at that age. I was basically out but hadn’t resigned yet was open about my disbelief but attended to help wife with kids and such when he was coming up on 8 years old. His baptism was tentatively set and I think the week before the ward leadership wanted to ‘introduce’ those about to get baptized and have them come up to the stand during sacrament meeting. My son fought it all the way and collapsed to the floor in the middle of the aisle between benches so he’d have to be dragged if going any further as my wife tried to cajole him into just going up front. That was enough for wife to decide he just wasn’t ready to be baptized and to delay and put it off. The ripple effect was that my in-laws cancelled their trip to come attend his birthday since he wasn’t getting baptized now and other relatives ghosted us for the same reason. His 8th birthday, despite getting a bouncy house and all was pathetically under attended and kind of depressing and was a significant milestone in my wife joining me on the way out of the church. We never did reschedule my son’s baptism either.
Hindsight 20/20 in these situations is always revealing as well. Looking at it— the lack of focus on people but on events church prescribed. I would have rocked the bouncy house with you 👊🏼
That’s horrific. As a TBM, I had made the decision to never to force my kids participation in the church because I wanted to honor their agency. So when my oldest son was 8 and we asked him if he wanted to get baptized, and he was terrified because he had heard that Satan has no power over little kids before their baptism, but could get them afterward. So I corrected him that Satan couldn’t get tempt him before he was 8, but that baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost would help protect him from Satan. And then asked him again if he wanted that, and he agreed to it. It’s embarrassing to me that I thought I was actually giving him a choice by saying: “Do you want to get baptized or do you want Satan to get you?” The notion that an 8 year old indoctrinated from birth can consent to a lifelong commitment like that is crazy already, but I can’t imagine forcibly baptizing them against their will.
i remember being 8 and bawling for at least a half hour at the entrance to the font - thankfully, no one forced me in and i did feel as if i was choosing to, but clearly i had hesitations
There is no way they could have waited, even one week. How else could he function as a normal child knowing he didn't covenant to serve a full time mission? /s
Ironic right? Age 8 is the consent for baptism… always seems ridiculous because we all just went along for the most part. Now an 8 year old has legit reasons they aren’t ready for that…. Oh, sorry Johnny, you are getting dunked today. Screw your consent… we cannot mess up our Parent Church Résumé.
In my TBMest moments, I would never force a child to be baptized. How on earth did they think this was a good idea?