That's a huge regret of many exmo women. This lady goes into detail about her temple wedding. She wrote a book called "How to Leave the Mormon Church".
Alyssa Grenfell
https://youtu.be/7gLAVyGy5tk
I'll have to watch it later. Just thumbing through the comments section real quick, all I can say is YIKES!!!!! There's a lot of deep-seated regret lingering on. I remember my MIL some years ago mentioning their wedding day was so stressful due to cramming her endowment and sealing into the same day. (They had to travel from out of state to marry/seal) wasn't helped by the fact they chose the salt Lake temple. She said she felt she was on a conveyor belt being moved down an assembly line and the whole thing was a sour experience. At the time their 40th anniversary was coming up and I said, "why don't y'all do a big blowout celebration and a vow renewal in front of all family and friends? Let's make it a big deal." I will never forget the Mormon pragmatism on my MIL's face, "that's not something that we do as members of the church. We go go the temple to remember our covenants." I was sort of speechless and even said, "you go back often to remember, in your words, that awful day?"
Don't be too hard on my MIL. She's come a long way in being a little more nuanced. She can finally take a joke. There was a moment not too long ago we had a heart to heart. My relationship with her daughter is the most stable of her 6 kids. All the other Mormon marriages have had problems. There's been divorces and infidelities. Nothing I gloat about and want to say "I told you so" (I've seen the fall out) but an important lesson for all. One size does not fit all.
As she's come out of her shell and trying to keep up that proper image for her children now all gone into their own lives or to her heathen non-member son in-law, she's relaxed and she's let out a more fun side of herself. We greet each other now with big hugs. There was one Sunday their ward over-lapped with our ward in the same building. They came walking in and I irreverently ran up to her, hugged her, and in mid-hug picked her up off the ground and spun her around a couple of times to the surprised people sitting on the floral furniture. She was red-in-the-face-embarrassed and laughing. But she didn't tell me to never do it again. Lol
This is exactly the case in my family - of all the siblings, the only one with a solid relationship with his partner is the one who isn't married but has been living with his girlfriend for 4(?) years.
I want to say you sound like a great person with a very kind and empathetic heart. It's very good of you to be so patient and so full of grace towards your mormon family members
I legitimately read that as "moron family members," lololllz. Clearly, I'm projecting. I'm the exmo married to a nevermo--thank (fictional) god for her--and several of my TBM family members are Jesus-fellating morons.
But yes, I agree. You're incredibly gracious. It's like dealing with teenagers, they get so sulky and passive-aggressive. But you're rising above the fray WITHOUT flooding your mother's inbox with secular humanist memes and demonstrations of her limitless hypocrisy when she won't stop sending you come-to-Jesus articles and videos. I salute you.
Having a temple wedding is definitely one of my bigger regrets now that I'm out. All of our staged wedding pictures are in front of the temple, and even the candid shots are of a ring ceremony and reception in a church gym. I was also really frustrated leading up to it because no one would tell me what was actually expected of me on the day of. I had to practically wrestle the words out of my mother's mouth as to whether I needed to write vows or not (I didn't).Ā
The man I married there is the reason I woke up and left, and we've been heavily discussing doing a vow renewal for our 10th anniversary, at which point our daughter will be old enough to participate and maybe remember some of it when she's grown up.
My ex husband was baptized shortly before we met. By the time we got married, we could have been sealed but I didnāt feel comfortable excluding his family from anything, so I was fine with a civil ceremony. Iām glad I got that out of my system, lol. I can see how a lot of brides would feel like that. But, the second time I got married, I definitely didnāt want the same big hullabaloo as the first time.
My first wedding was in the Ward Chapel. I was inactive and living with my boyfriend for 5-6 years when the bishop and a counselor showed up at my door and gave me an ultimatum. I'm assuming my mother sicked them on me. It was get married or be excommunicated. At the time I was still believing enough to send my boyfriend back to his mother's house for 3 months while we planned a wedding. No sex š„ŗ So I was disfellowshipped for a time, but that somehow went away after the wedding. We moved to the country and I tried to get my husband to go but found out he only went because he liked to hear me sing the hymns. It eventually led to our breakup because I wanted to be more active in church and have a healthier lifestyle but he couldn't handle it.
2nd marriage was in the temple, and I don't even remember it. I remember being extremely troubled about being sealed to someone I'd divorced and could no longer stand. I actually hated him for a while. The choices we make when we think we're doing all the right things. š¤¦āāļø
For future reference...
This is the YouTube link:
https://youtu.be/7gLAVyGy5tk
...while this part of the URL is tracking information that can be used to link back to your Google account:
[REDACTED]
It is always best to remove the tracking information before sharing YouTube links anywhere.
This has been a public service announcement (with guitar).
Yes, it's usually ?v=Ā
A similar thing happens with Amazon links. The further from the original search result you are, the more little chunks of letters are added to the URL. You only actually need the .com/dp/abcdxyz/ part to get to the right product.
There was more I could've added. I think more than anything her bishop was poisoned against her and especially me. Her folks found out we were sexually active and THAT is a whole other story for another time. LMAO!!! Oh man, they tried to stage an intervention and everything. I shut that shit down when I said, "my sexuality and sexual activity is no one's business but my own and certainly none of your business." They countered saying the sexual activity of their daughter was 100% their business. I couldn't beleive my nevermo ears. "You adult daughter?!?!?!" Pretty sure they told the bishop and bishop was peeved she would not meet with him to "discuss." It's a long story. Maybe I'll share next week. Lol
Not always. I know of weddings that happened in the chapel for couples that were members, but baptized too recently to go to the temple, and other members that could not be sealed because the woman was already widow who was already sealed.
My momās wedding was just in one of the side rooms (I think it was the Relief Society room). They could have done it in the gym if they wanted, but they chose to have the reception in there instead
You are šÆ on point! There is so much virtue signalling in the church (no, since your marriage doesn't "count" it needs to happen under a basketball net) I went to a family member's "regular" wedding and loved seeing them exchange vows and do all the traditional things. Wish I would've been at a good place in my life to have a beautiful, non-temple marriage! I'm seriously not surprised the women were excited about the prospect of a normal wedding!
My wedding happened fast because my very Catholic mother was terminally ill. We had the meeting with the priest (friend of my dadās who fudged the paperwork so we didnāt have to give six months notice). He asked about who would be coming and we said that there would be very few Catholics. We had Jewish friends, pagan friends, atheist friends, none of the above friends. He said fine. Iāll work with that.
I found out after the event that heād come out before the ceremony to explain to everyone what to expect, they had a little hymn singing then as we went through the ceremony he explained each step of what was happening and why.
My friends said it was fab. One said sheād married into a Catholic family and this was the first time sheād really understood it all. To me, thatās what a wedding is about. Itās about having everyone together celebrating the marriage
Thank you for standing up for yourself and your family.
I feel like many mormons who do civil marriages would be better off doing it at another church.
Your my hero I have always had problems standing up for my self and by extension my wife and I've been learning and growing out of that and what you did was admirable.
Bishops and their stupid opinions have had too much weight in my life for too long.
Honestly, while I appreciate, I can not take the credit. I was going along with whatever they wanted. I just asked the question.....Whether they felt we were being disrespected. Had I not jokingly and casually mentioned it to my folks, we would've been married under a basketball goal. It was my mom who was horrified. She found a moment, took my wife aside and said, "you are worth more than a gym." So my mom is the hero in this.
Great post, though I do wish people wouldn't feel like they're "missing the wedding" because they're missing an old guy tediously rambling about Adam and Eve, then read a script and have them say "yes" in silly outfits. That's what Mormons think the wedding is, but it's just the ceremony the church makes them filing the paperwork contingent on. Really Mormons don't get a wedding at all. And barely a reception. I think how excited everybody got at seeing a real wedding indicates how deprived we generally are from any celebration of the couple.
Oooof, this is a succinct comment. Thanks for the insight. I do remember my folks' pastor saying during our ceremony that he has met with us together and individually and felt that, "this marriage is 100% ordained of god." I don't know if that was common rhetoric for him or it was a subtle jab at all the Mormons and the story that got around that we had to have it at another church because her church put us in a gym. But in total fairness, I think a nevermo being in my wife's family for 21 years has caused them to relax a little and not be so rigid and allow for how other live and beleive. I don't take full credit for this. They had to first be open.
That probably was a subtle jab at Mormons tbh. When Mormon bishops perform marriage ceremonies, they are instructed to state that the marriage is only for that lifetime or something to that affect. I remember my nevermo ex in laws thought it was weird and so did I. At least he was respectful enough not to bring up religious shit beyond that knowing my ex was a covert.
A temple wedding may be silly and not have the trimmings of a traditional wedding; however, you do feel like you are missing out, because you are. You're left out of the family.
I was able to go to one brother's temple wedding. However, by the time my next brother got married, I was out of the church, and out in the parking lot tending kids. But I was all dressed up so everyone could have nice photos and seem together afterward. As I stood outside to catch their eyes as they walked out of the temple, it was just hectic (typical), they didn't notice. It BROKE my heart. I had stayed outside with other people's kids before, cousins, etc. But this time, with my close sibling, was sad. I vowed it would be the last time I'd ever wait outside, like second class, for anyone.
I'm sure your comment was intended to help people feel like they aren't missing out. I agree that the ceremony is nothing to feel bad about missing. However, it is more about being left out, and thought of as less-than. ...guess i was triggered.
There was something I wanted to say, but I kind of got wrapped up in other points. Which is that because that is the "wedding" to so many people, that's where the emotion and big marriage moment is in Mormonism. That plus years of having been Mormon before, and being unfairly excluded from a moment that's considered the couple's big moment, definitely makes it more complicated than my "Well who cares I didn't want to go anyway." I find the sealing ceremony sad because it's yet another moment where the individual and the couple is subsumed into the organization and has no chance to express their feelings and identity, but it's not like that sealing ceremony is inherently meaningless just because it isn't inherently meaning*ful*, if only taken as an event with the inner circle of family.
Honestly, as you mention it, I'm thinking that maybe this is why Mormon weddings are still "off limits" to people outside of the mormon church. If normal person saw the garb or heard the words of the mormon wedding, they would be mortified and say CULT! Even the mormons themselves would have to come to terms with how weird it all is if they were to actually let outsiders see the mormon wedding.
My in-laws flew from Europe to sit outside the temple in the late 90s. We had a ring ceremony for their benefit in the relief society room. After the two of us left for our honeymoon, a bug went around the group and they had to travel home sick as dogs.
My sister was exmo and married a nevermo and my parents paid for the event in a nice hotel with live music and dancing. I wanted dancing at the reception held in the gym but my dad nixed it because his business associates were invited so he wanted to keep it formal. My mom, sensing the perceivable imbalance, explained that the splashiness of her hotel wedding was compensating for the lack of spiritual depth of the temple ceremony.
And yet the temple ceremony was quick, officiated by someone wed never met and one of several that day, booked one after another on a Saturday.
I was deeply indoctrinated and accepting of all of this at the time. It's really easy to accept neglect and mistreatment and unfairness if you've already given your personal autonomy over to others. But to be clear if you had asked me then I would have said I was doing what I wanted.
I can empathize with your in-laws. No telling how many long distance drives i've made to Mormon temples just to sit outside. Just showing my moral support for Mormon family and their interpretation if support. But I've never made a trans-oceanic flight to sit outside a temple!!! Oof.....that's rough.
I'm glad we also had a reception in Europe near their home. We danced, had a great time. MIL sang karaoke with the groom and my FIL played the piano for fun.
My sisterās sealer kept calling her the wrong name and my dad, as a witness, wouldnāt say anything (probably because āwe donāt correct the priesthoodā). My mom finally had to pipe up.
When/if I get married again, Iām never jumping through the hoops of the temple again.
Yeah, it was like her name was JUST āMandyā but he kept calling her āAmandaā. Just proves the point that youāre a face in the crowd to your marriage officiant.
Yes. All the regrets.
In fact, the change in 2019 that made it so people could have a civil wedding immediately followed by the temple sealing (without the year-long wait) is when I started to question everything. It was a super painful change and really broke my heart. Not because I wasn't happy about it, but then what was my sacrifice for if it could so easily be changed later?
Which led me to question - what else I was sacrificing for no reason at all??
Turns out lots...
Wearing those shitty underwear I'd loathed for decades.
Wearing them dilligently, paired with capris/long shorts/shirts with sleeves, while living in the hottest places in the US.
10% of my income
Second Saturdays
Fretting about doing everything, all the time, so I could get the best eternal life.
Worrying about my future sister wives
So much time at meetings, callings, ministering/VT, 2-3 hr church, 20 hours/yr of general conference
....so really, I guess my temple wedding day filled with all the bad memories, helped get me out eventually.
Looking back, I have lots of regrets about our wedding. I had so much family on the outside, and they were so gracious, but it makes me so sad that they werenāt there! Not that they missed muchāsealings are super impersonal and weird! I had never been to one before my own and was thrown off by the language that I āgaveā myself to my husband, but he just āreceivedā me. I thought there must have been a mistake. I would love to choose a different dress, walk down the aisle and write our own vows (or even have vows that had anything to do with our actual marriage!) We didnāt even do a ring ceremony, just enchanged rings in the hallway before we went outside for pictures. At least we had our reception somewhere other than the cultural hall!
So, my wife later became "endowed." She went to church every week and I would go with her to support her and she not be alone. But I made it abundantly clear I would NEVER join the church. She wanted to have a temple recommend and be endowed so that she could go to all the family and friend sealing that were going on during that stage of our life. Because the endowment process takes hours, I did not go with her. My in-laws dropped her off at out home, she came through the door and burst into tears. The whole process freaked her out. She never went to another endowment. And those temple garments - they looked awful and I told her as much. She tended to only where the garments when she went to church. Her folks bought her a supply of garments that only got used for church. Lol!!! Anyway, once she attended a live sealing for the first time her reaction: "that's a big to-do about nothing. You're not missing anything by staying outside."
I was a member and married
A nonmember in his fathers beautiful garden. Our bishop married us and there were no issues. But I will say that your wife will not be treated as an equal because sheās not Ā«Ā in the clubĀ Ā». The elitism that the temple creates is very real. Now that she is endowed they will treat her better ( the sisters) but they are all waiting for the day you convert.
Since knowing the truths of this organization, I now laugh at them but it wasnāt funny when I was left out of things or not included. Or the remarks in RS Ā«Ā Iām so blessed to have a temple marriageĀ Ā»( your wife isnāt blessed???), or Ā«Ā hopefully he will come round in the next lifeĀ Ā» or Ā«Ā thank goodness I made the right choice to be sealed in the temple so MY family can be togetherĀ Ā» and other bs. Itās all built on a lie and a fantastical belief system by a con man. Your wife is actually very lucky that her husband is not being conned out of 10% of his income and puts his wife before a church.
Wife hasn't been to church in close to 8 years. She figured out what it was. Most of her siblings are out now. But I went to church with her every week. I likely know more about Mormonism than mormons themselves.
I was married in a Utah temple almost 8 years ago. My dad, younger brothers, and best friend were not inside with me. I was told by the temple worker to look at him and not my husband during the ceremony because he was acting as God. Then we went to my grandmas, had 10-second sex for the first time and went to our reception where we had some dancing and BYU mint brownies. Iāve hated thinking about that day since.
Two months ago, my youngest brother who returned from a mission last year married a āless activeā girl. They did a civil wedding and asked ME to officiate. š So there I was, tattooed, exmormon, and a female! Writing their ceremony and being ordained. Having the power to marry them. And it was only about them. No church shit. Just them and their love for each other. And it was SO HEALING. And so many people asked after how long Iād been officiating weddings.
My TBM momās boyfriend was flabbergasted and asked how it was possible? I said āyeah, I just had to go ask a church that respects womenā.
Iām so happy that my brother and his wife will not live life together having bad or weird memories of their wedding day.
The only way terrible traditions stop, like sitting pathetically outside of a wedding to which you aren't invited, is when people refuse to follow them.
No, you have it all wrong. You're invited to sit outside. LMAO!!!! and to take pictures with the family. Lol! It's the myopia of mormons who can't see that as problematic.
Not defending anything here, but I kind of remember something in the handbook (the rules of how to run the church) that you couldnāt have weddings in the chapel.
This illustrates a couple things for me: 1. How Salt Lake feels the need to dictate every little thing to every single person in the church; and 2. How unwilling the local leadership is to deviate from anything the handbook says.
How about this? How about: who cares if you have a wedding in the chapel? Itās fine and it will make the people happy and thereās nothing doctrinal about it.
The level of micromanaging every little aspect of everyoneās life is astounding. Donāt get me started on Mormon funerals.
Itās such a corporate power structure and so invasive of every little aspect of every personās life.
Is that ever weird, maybe they changed it. In 1984 I had a civil ceremony in the Chapel, the we got sealed at a later time. Then my sister got married in 2009 in the Chapel as well.
Now to be fair, we weren't allowed any decorations other than a couple of flower arrangements, however we went all out in the gym/cultural hall for both mine and my sisters weddings.
Perhaps it boils down to Bishop roulette.
When you start looking at a lot of things that Mormons consider untouchable (donāt call female leaders āpresidentā, no clapping in the chapel, everything in BKPās āUnspoken order of thingsā talk) you thin: who cares?
I always planned on basically eloping because my ādreamā wedding was never a possibility. I wanted to get married outside under a big old tree. I wanted to have a meal outside and then dancing all under trees and stars and fairy lights.
Instead I got a boring white room, with ugly clothes, only some of the people I loved, and then a bunch of photos in front of a monument to religion.
We did also do a ring ceremony and a reception in the yard, but due to Mormon expectations it was nothing like I wanted.
Mormon weddings are BLEAK and so sad. Not happy at all. Iāve never been to one that is joyous and thankfully Iāll never have to go to one again lol.
My ex and I did a huge party the next day and Iām so glad we did. Live band, dancing, good food for everyone. People still talk about how fun it was! Nobody talks about the boring sealing lmao.
My sister had a civil wedding with a bishop officiating. He said nice things but then went on about how this marriage was only in this life. They had to get married on the temple to make it last. Thanks man, way to rain on the parade.
My first temple wedding to go to was my new TBM DHās niece. He went in and since I wasnāt endowed I had made plans to run over to the Gateway Mall and do a little shopping. Apparently someone thought I was going to babysit? I was approached and asked and I said no, I had other plans. It was a scandal! I stood my ground and had no idea that it was expected of me. If you go to a temple wedding leave the kids home with a babysitter!
My husband and I had our civil wedding in the park because he hadnāt been a member long enough to go to the temple. Iām so grateful that my wedding included his family and that our pictures are in front of a gazebo and not the temple. Iām also grateful that I got to wear the āimmodestā dress (small cap sleeves) I wanted to and didnāt have to change into a weird costume.
I converted to the church as a young adult now more than 20 years ago. none of my family were members and there was the emphasis on the importance of starting out in the temple. I was TBM when my spouse and I were married. The family I was married into were all TBM and many family members made it a point to attend our Temple wedding and traveled to the temple we had selected. Because they couldnāt attend the sealing, none of my family traveled to āour templeā. At the time, I had accepted that this was just part of the sacrifices we make, but in that room full of people I felt alone.
When the church made the announcement that now, despite what part of the world members lift in, members could marry civilly first and without waiting be sealed in the temple, my heart broke. I realized how much had been take away from me and my family. Itās not that I donāt wish I had married never my spouse, but I desperately wished I would realized how much not being with my family on my āwedding dayā hurt me and my family. Iām now PIMO close to pulling the trigger and bowing outā¦ā¦.but my spouse and their family are all still TBM with a lot of opinions.
You are spot on in all of your observations. And good on you for putting up with your TBM wife. Hopefully, she joins you (and the rest of us) here one day.
Not directly. Maybe unintentionally indirectly. I 100% supported her except in two areas. I was NOT gonna pay tithing and our kids were NOT getting baptized. They could decide as an adults. Everything else i supported her. Went to church. I was a non-member with callings. Was in the boy scout leadership a lot. I spent Sundays with the deacons, teachers, and priests as an advisor. Just not on Mormon spiritual matters. I knew it was all kooky. I tried to passively make it less so.
I was a convert to the church and did a ring ceremony after getting married in the templeā¦it was pretty much a regular ceremony. That said it was excruciating leaving my dad and sisters outside the templeā¦and the ceremony in the temple is nothing super special like a regular wedding. I am super glad I did a ring ceremony and being where I am now angry weddings are yet another place where the church divides families and prohibits having others participate.
I personally canāt believe her bishop wouldnāt let you use the chapel but take it as a win!!! Guessing your church was much prettier and it really is the quintessential thing to walk down a center isle!
I'm a nevrmo and my wife was PIMO when we got married. Her experience with her ex-husband and the temple wedding was also so stressful to her. She said that she felt like she didn't want to marry her ex, but all of the pressure and money spent made her feel too guilty. She regretted it immediately but still gave him 2 years before she divorced him. So we decided to elope. It was amazing and so stress free. And this time she could say no and leave at any point, which felt freeing to her. She told me she could actually marry for love and not just to appease her family and the church. We didn't tell anyone for 3 months. Her family was upset with us, but it wasn't about them. She has since left the church and we're thriving.
This sounds very similar to my husband and I except that he was theoretically all the way out. We also eloped and both he and his ex-wife have expressed to me that they married because they were acceptable choices to each others' families and temple worthy. My husband still struggles with "what if the church IS true?" moments, particularly because his family uses the bludgeon of being separated from me in eternity when they're pressuring him to come back (and bring me in). The idea that he's "sealed" to her instead is a real mindfuck for him. But then I remind him that none of us are going to the CK regardless, so it's a moot point. Gotta make the most of time while we have it.
I am an exmo, but when I was TBM, my first husband was a convert. Because of that, I was fine with a civil ceremony. I wasnāt going to exclude his family over religion when we could get sealed later. However, two things: my (now ex) husband didnāt tell his parents he converted, they were super Baptists. Like, Sunday school teacher, preacher Grandpa kind of Baptist. Second, our wedding venue had a view of a temple.
My ex husbands family had never been to Ut before, and after the wedding ceremony, my grandma paraded their asses over to the window and pointed out the temple. Then she said āThatās where J and C will get married next year!ā She was talking about us being sealed but they didnāt know what the fuck she was talking about. They thought she had dementia š¤£šš¤£š
Never have a Mormon bishop marry you. They may not charge, but in the ceremony, they will downplay your wedding and push the Mormon doctrines associated with temple weddings. My wife and I got married in a reception center and paid a Methodist minister to do the ceremony. She respected our wishes to keep it non-religious. It was worth it. It was also much better than the temple wedding I had with my ex.
My kids had their weddings in a Mormon church. They had the ceremony in the relief society room(which was a little nicer than the basketball court), but the bishops used the ceremony to talk about how temple sealings are so much better and how they should work to become worthy of going to the temple. Then they had the reception on the basketball court.
Being in the UK the Bishopās attitude comes across as appalling. In the first place over here we always have a church wedding in the chapel with the whole walking down the aisle and bridesmaids and everything. Because legal reasons. And then the temple later in the day. In the second place, lots of members here are married to nonmembers, and no one would be so crass or insensitive as to even imagine they deserve anything less. In the third place, church rules changed now so that even in the US the legal marriage can happen outside the temple, and then a temple sealing afterwards.
Who does that bishop think he is? On numbers alone, he has to know that not every LDS woman is going to find an LDS man to marry. Canāt he be happy your wife has found a good man.
Well done for getting her something better than that control freak was prepared to allow.
"Can't he be happy your wife found a good man." - Unfortunately, in Mormonism, the only thing that qualities you as a good man is if you have the priesthood and you went on a mission and returned "with honor." That's it. A pretty low bar many come to find out the horrible truth later. With me and my in-laws, it took time and a lot of strained and failed marriages of their other kids to see, I wasn't as bad as they thought. I have to give it to my MIL, she's changed. She did the unthinkable a few years ago, took me aside and tearfully apologized for any past nastiness. "If you say it to anyone I will deny it but of all my sons and daughter in-laws, you are my favorite." That's some high and unexpected praise. And to think the lowest point was when they found out I turned their daughter into a fornicator. Lol!!!!
i HATE thinking about my Mormon wedding. I have a feeling that there are a lot of women who probably feel the same way. I was married before some things in the wording changed - it was very sexist: no vows, nothing.
I have often considered the idea of renewing my vows - on the beach in Hawai'i with my husband.
My 37th anniversary is coming up. I **so, so, so** wish I had done a civil wedding. And I've not been secret about my regrets - even when I was still active.
1. My in-laws were members but had never been to the temple. Because they couldn't go in, they didn't come and sit outside (it was almost the opposite side of the country and travel was a big obstacle as well). None of my husband's family attended. We did have a very nice reception in his home town but I still feel pangs of regret over them not being included in the wedding.
2. My siblings were all younger and so were all sitting outside.
3. My dream wedding was a garden wedding. The closest I could get was I planned a reception in my grandparents' beautiful yard and then weather forced us to move - to the church (ugh).
4. I felt so ugly in the temple clothes. I was embarrassed that I looked like I was wearing a stupid costume instead of looking pretty for my husband.
And now, I feel badly that my two oldest children got married in the temple. They and spouses have since left the church but I wish they would have had a wedding that included all family and friends. I think I'll suggest they consider some ceremony or celebration for their 10th anniversaries.
A wedding should bring family and friends together for an exciting, happy event, but no, let's split the group - some inside, some outside. š”
I married my wife, and we couldn't get married in the temple because I had been divorced and getting sealed in the temple for a second time requires alot of paperwork. Anyway, I let my wife plan everything, and some of her non-mormon friends said it was one of the most beautiful weddings they had ever been to. She had the chairs arranged in the gym so there was an isle to walk down. Her dad walked her down the aisle. We both had a young nephew as the ring bearer. It was a great occasion attended by both heavily tbm mormon families, in contrast getting sealed in the temple later didn't have the same excitement. Mormonism stinks
I had an inverted experience being the exmo marrying my southern Baptist wife in the south. All of my family was/is Mormon so we thought it would be nice to have the local Mormon officiate it a a small country chapel. I found out later that most of her family threatened not to attend. And it was a super small wedding so it would have been really obvious if they hadn't. The chapel (I believe it was Methodist) told her mother that they hadn't had a policy prohibiting a Mormon bishop officiating the wedding but they made one after the event so that it would never happen again.
I wasn't super familiar with Baptist. Catholics were the major religious presence in the town I grew up in so with all of that tension I was like, "well,
at least there will be drinking since they aren't Mormon to loosen it up!" Nope! They don't drink either. My wife and I joke all the time about how they are virtually the same religion and don't know it.
I'm in a similar boat! My husband was raised in the church but I'm nevermo. His mom tried really, really hard to get me to join so I could force my husband into a temple marriage. She started doing this when we'd only been dating a few months! His first marriage didn't work out (obviously bc they didn't get married in the temple, only in the RS room) and he had 2 kids with his first wife.
We moved in with my inlaws for a few months and she and my sister in law would. Not. Stop. I finally had to tell them that I'd seen the temple ceremonies online and would rather actually slit my throat than ever do that. We eloped, then had a ceremony a few years later. She was NOT pleased that we had our wedding at the ren faire and gave my stepsons swords for it. I've been a part of this family for 7 years, and my MIL still believes I'm the one who stole her son from the church. Out of my husband's generation, his sister is the only one still in the church!
Yeah, I completely regret my wedding in the templeā¦ my husbandās family werenāt active and didnāt have recommends so they couldnāt go in. Our only family there was my mom and dad, since Iām the oldest of my siblings and none of my extended family are active in the church. There were no kids to watch or anything. And later my bil told me how his mom was really upset she couldnāt see her son say āI Doā. I really wish we had been able to have a civil wedding and just go get sealed later if we still wanted to.
Definitely wish I would have married elsewhere, but not just for the aisle to walk down or the dress I really wanted to wear. My reason is that NONE of our family--not my parents, not his parents, none of my siblings and none of his siblings--were there. LDS church is DIVISIVE. I'll never forget the HURT and PAIN that caused my family, but my dear mother in particular.
I am a nevermo who married a Mormon. He was very active for most of the 49 years weāve been married. I did a deep dive into Mormon history and taught him a lot of things he didnāt know. He left about five years ago. I never thought it would happen, but it was a great day.
hey! im on the other side of this!! (Mormon girl dating nevermo guy) as someone whoās dating a never-mo & JUST recently actually left the church mentally (stopped going 1-2 years ago? but always told myself ābut i still believe in it!ā) my dad had a talk to me about how āyou donāt get married to someone based on hope that they will convertā but he had āhope that [bf] will be baptizedā because my boyfriend & i have been talking about getting engaged. itās so frustrating now that iām mentally out because i know they will have something to say about it when we ONLY have a civil marriage.
& i can speak on how cool a civil marriage seemed to me when i was TBM, i have a cousin whoās getting married in the temple & im her maid of honor but iām not endowed so i basically donāt have to do anything š„²
My wife believed in the basic doctrines of the church but I think opened her mind to nuanced when we started dating. A little back story: my wife has been 100% deaf since the age of 6. I won't tell the whole story but I knuckles down and learned ASL so I could introduce myself and talk to her. I thought she was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen. Attraction causes you to do extreme things. I learned a language to date her. I think that effort and genuiness played a role in her and and family accepting me as a non-believer. But I can say over the 3 years of out courtship, we had plenty of discussions where it was clearly conveyed, that she cannot have any hope I will ever convert. I accepted her beliefs and her family, but acceptance is a two-way street. She was under no illusions. I'll be honest. But can you ever really know how someone feels? They may tell you it's fine. They may even feel it's fine. But 5-7 years of marriage later, they tell you it no longer works for them. Doesn't say much for me and my confidence but I wondered if this hammer would ever drop on me. To my wife's credit, it never did. But I also went to church with her every Sunday to support her. Man......the amount of times the missionaries wanted to talk with me. LMAO!!!! I would send them away with more questions than answers. Lol!!!
I am so glad you had a celebration wedding.Ā
Ā Iām an exmo married to the never mo. I grew up secretly wanting the wedding out in nature - seaside, mountains, anywhere. But I was the good little mormon who said/did the mormon things growing up. Anyways, grew up, left the church, & married my nevermo by the seaside. My TBM family was appalling at the wedding but managed to put on a happy mormon face for the nevermo friends & family; thatās what mormons do. Itās all about the facade. But my nuanced & exmo family & friends as well as the nevermo family/friends outnumbered the TBMs & were wonderful. It was a celebration of our love & commitment to each other. And the food was delicious!Ā
I canātĀ even begin to say how thankful I am that I left the cult & was able to have MY wedding. I was surrounded by people I loved. Absolutely hated that as an active non temple recommend holding younger sister.Ā
And now I refuse to go to temple weddings. I wonāt sit outside & I wonāt show up for pictures. Iāll show up at the reception. But as I live far from the mormon corridor itās often not worth the time off & expenses. Especially if just a typical cheap mormon reception. Iāll visit the bride/groom later when Iām out there visiting & take them out to dinner & if typical poor young mormon newlyweds - take them to the grocery store.Ā
I wish I had not married in the temple. My dad Had to sit outside. Both my older sisters had more traditional weddings and they were way better weddings. Everyone was happy enjoying themselves. Big celebration and fun! If I could do it all over again I would have followed in their footsteps and not the awful, lame Mormon temple. My biggest regret in life was Being a mormon. But hey I was raised and brainwashed in it, itās all I knew.
Mormon wedding generally suck. I would recommend only showing up for the reception. That has become my policy. Sitting outside I consider disrespectful to me and my wife . If they want a family picture it can be taken at the reception.
To answer your question, I had a temple marriage and regret it enormously!
I am a convert. Baptized as a teenager. I had no idea that I could not just get married civilly, then sealed in the temple that day. Even being completely worthy, if I had chosen to get married civilly first, I would have to wait an entire year to be āsealedā
Interestingly enough, there are other countries that you CAN get married first then go to the temple to get sealed. When I found that out later, it really hurt my feelings that my family situation wasnāt good enough or important enough to allow that.
So I had to explain to my non Mormon family that they would not see my wedding. It hurt my mom very much who pointed out, the āfamily is foreverā was hypocritical. She is right.
We had a ring ceremony a week later for my family. It was not the same as a real wedding. The bishop also made some comments during the ring ceremony that made it clear that the wedding already happened, and the ceremony was basically useless. It just poured salt in the wound for my family. I seriously regret allowing that to happen. I think it damaged my relationship with my mom on such a deep level.
All the little things you dream of in a wedding when you are a little girl, I had none of those. Because I am a convert, like 5 people were in the temple room while the sealing took place.
I think your bishop absolutely intended to punish or make your wedding less than by putting it in the gym. Thank goodness you had an alternative.
So yea, I regret it. For me, temple marriage was just weirdness and exclusion.
Sorry that happened to you. It displays that Mormonism only works as a fringe frontier cult where it's socially compulsory to be in the church and do church, eh.....cult, things. Once the church went broad and outside the Corridor is when things started affecting mix-faith situations. So many people are harmed by Mormonism but in their hubris, the church refuses to acknowledge or see it. Dropping the one year waiting period was a too little too late crumb to appease the problem. But they still actively teach anything short of a temple marriage is not to standard. Seems like all they really did was indemnity themselves.
I love story time! First, I loved your last post, such a feel good story :) second, I love when you said not seeing a wedding but taking photos like you did. I had never thought of that perspective and youāre so right!
Story time! My husbands immediate family was trying to everything in their power to stop us from getting married. Like tried to get my husband to kill himself because itād be better than marrying me, manipulated, gaslit, the whole shabang. My husbands whole family is Mormon, most of my extended family is Mormon, but 50% of my immediate family were in or out. My family was extremely supportive and my parents (who were continually brought into the drama via my husbands parents who would surpass talking to my husband and I and go straight to my parentsā¦ didnāt work in their favour, if they think Iām a stubborn unfiltered twat, where do they think I got it from lol) have helped us get out of the hole my in laws put us into. We planned on having our reception at my familyās airbnb because my in laws said they didnāt want a party at their house and when we found an airbnb we could have a party at, in laws freaked out saying it was too small (we wanted just our families and close friends there, more my husband since my immediate family plus a cousin was planning to fly out) because they wanted to invite everyone from their ward. They forced us to go out and find a church that we could bookā¦ mid summer, with less than a month to spare. We tried looking, but the only one we were okay with was booked on the day we were supposed to get married. Having more people would mean weād have to find caterers and it just got too chaotic. My MIL said they wouldnāt give us a dime for the wedding or after if we got married and that they wouldnāt help us set up whilst bragging about how amazing she has been at setting up other peopleās weddings and events. She also tried to get me to date my SILās boyfriend at the time.. who was also underaged and said Iād really like his mom lol. They continued their drama when they found out I flew in 4 days early (a week and a half before our wedding), went WAY harder and finally MIL texted my husband word for word saying she would stop attacking me if we postponed the wedding by a few months. My husband, whom already nearly attempted suicide had I not been there to hold him back, saw this as a window of opportunity to get some space from the drama. Well my husband and I had fucked quite a few times before we got married, we were each others firsts, so he used that as a means to convince me to push back the wedding. Bishop and SP roulette is a real thing. I agreed because in my experience all the people who screwed up were let off and told to refrain from more until they got married. Well, my husbands SP was not one of those people. We had to hand in our recommends, SP got in touch with my SP, so I had to do TWO interviews about it while my husband only had to do the one, I had to call the temple to cancel the wedding THREE days before we were supposed to get married. My family lost deposits on the airbnb and their flights, I had to spend more money to cancel and reschedule my flight to pick me up early, I was humiliated, I was gossiped about, my SP told his daughter who approached me after 3 months of being completely isolated about it (I know this woman VERY well and I know that the whole ward probably knows we fucked). My husband broke up with me and got back together a few times. His family never even asked about me AND STILL WENT TO OUR RECEPTION DINNER WITH THEIR WHOLE FAMILYā¦ my husband went too. I was livid. After a couple months of the drama calming down, my husband decided he did want to get married, but he didnāt want to tell his family. I told him he should let his family know, but understood and respected his decision not to. We were tight on money and figured a bishop (who happened to be the son in law of my SP) from an old ward who was an old friend of my dadās (dad was excommunicated when I was 9) could officiate. I didnāt know if the wedding would get cancelled again, so I didnāt want to tell anyone and I wanted a small wedding anyway, so we decided to just have my immediate family members there and we had the wedding in my parents living room. Unfortunately my SP said I wasnāt allowed to ask the bishop I wanted and was forced into choosing the bishop of my home ward. The bishop of my home ward who a year prior refused to give me my living ordinance to get married to my husband because my bishop wanted me to get married to my ex boyfriend. This same bishop has major marital problems that his wife frequently involves my mom in (like doing all of their laundry..). When I asked why we had to choose this guy I was not given a proper answer. So my wedding day consisted of me, my husband, my parents, brother and sister with their spouses, and the bishop with his wife whom I did not like at this point any longer. It was still a chill day, we went to a steakhouse after, went back home and played Mario kart.
Looking back is so crazy. Weāre from different countries and decided to get married where my husband is from, my family would have had to fly over just to sit outside the temple, while my husbands family who was actively trying to rip us apart would have been allowed in. How does that make sense? My wedding dress was 2k plus an additional 1.5k to make alterations to make my dress garment approved (I served a mission, so I was wearing garments already), only to be told that I was unworthy of getting married where I wanted to get married. The celestial room made me feel peaceful because it was a quiet place I wouldnāt be disturbed in, I begged my SP for months to give my recommend back to me because I wanted to feel closer to god and I needed him at that time in my life, to be told no. Obviously as I look back Iām happy that I didnāt get married in the temple and Iām happy that the right people were there, however I was still deeply impacted by temple marriages. It ruined me for years, especially when my husband left 4 years prior to myself.
Fuck the Mormon church :)
just remember that the waiting outside is essentially a lie about what is going on inside. they're letting you think that you'd want to be in there with them when you wouldn't, what's happening in there is completely bananas, and fatally embarrassing. what you think it looks like, isn't what it looks like. they take off their tux and wedding dress and put on a ridiculous bakers hat costume. and then when it's over they put back on their normal wedding clothes before they emerge into the daylight to maintain the pretense that they were wearing their formalwear the whole time.
if you don't know what it looks like go check out NewNameNoah's youtube channel.
and the worst victims of this lie are the brides (not all, but most probably) who don't know what they're in for beforehand. they think they're going to get a lovely picturesque wedding ceremony and instead are creeped the hell out, and then have to sit through a cringeworthy nightmare for several hours before they can cry in a closet.
Yeah, trying to explain Mormon weddings to my never-mo boyfriend is always a fun time. But to answer your question about babysitting kids: there are usually enough kids who arenāt old enough to have gone through the temple to take care of the really little ones. So, before I was the gay uncle that took care of all the kids (Iāve always been the gay uncle, they just didnāt know it), I was the uncle who babysat because I hadnāt been through the temple and therefore couldnāt be there for the ceremony.
We ALL secretly (or openly) wish we had a different ceremony
Good for you for insisting on someone else. The ceremony the bishop would've done is terrible too. I've been to them. The wording makes it very clear this is a subpar wedding and only until death and it will end and is only semi real
We all have a heathen uncle to watch the kids. Or some older teens
I was married outside in a meadow, a very simple ceremony, surrounded by wildflowers and family and history, so full of heartfelt meaning and joy. I am so glad I didn't do the whole temple thing. Those who are subjected to temple weddings are seriously shortchanged. It breaks my heart.
I am also nevermo but have read many posts here where people express sadness that their wedding ceremony was not about them at all but rather about the church, that various people they care about could not attend because it was in the temple, etc. Have also seen some angry/sad posts about the Mormon funeral experience (that one is far from unique to Mormonism - I have also heard loved ones say they found Catholic funerals quite hurtful because the mass was all about Catholic theology and the church, not about the deceased, and I have one friend who attended his niece's wedding with his multiple LGBTQ family members there and the priest chose to lecture on the sins of same sex marriage - at a wedding!)
I'm pretty much you if you switch the genders. My poor FIL is the dedicated temple babysitter because I dye my hair rainbow for all temple weddings that I'm invited to "attend" and I freak the morms out. It's my mission to photo bomb as many couples as possible.
Back to my FIL. He has 3 daughters and 1 son. My wedding was the only one he was allowed to witness. I often think about how sad that is. Why can't he go to the temple, you ask? Coffee. He won't give up his coffee, and that's the only reason he can't go. He does all the other things, even tithing.
Imagine the in-laws' surprise at our open bar and Presbyterian pastor (he's family). The nieces were bouncing off the walls at the thought of actually watching a wedding. Anyway, I'm just saying I feel ya.
I married a nevermo while active in TSCC (though I was already not believing, I continued to attend because my parents pressured me) and we got married by my bishop in the Primary room at the church, where they have the music and lessons for kids under 12. I did NOT want to get married under a basketball hoop because I always found that tacky. We held our reception at a friend's house who lived down the street from the church building.
I had the "wait outside the temple" experience at my brother's wedding, as I was unworthy, having never gone through the temple to get my endowments, mostly because I was never a full tithe payer. So essentially, because I was poor, I couldn't watch my brother get married. Weird, right?
Never heard of a wedding in an LDS chapel. All the ones I've been to including my own where in the Multi-purpose room (GYM). I looked it up in the Handbook. The wording is a bit confusing, but I think that's a no.
35.5.15 Weddings and Receptions
Receptions may not be held in the chapel unless it is a multipurpose area.
I've looked into it recently in the general handbook. The actual ceremony can be in the chapel. Not sure of that was the case 21 years ago but her bishop was not gonna let it be. I've been told that there was a time when members treated the chapel of their building more reverently than they do today. My wife said when she was a primary girl, they were not allowed in unless they were in Sunday dress. So, there could be some of those old sensibilities I this story, too.
I married my wife, and we couldn't get married in the temple because I had been divorced and getting sealed in the temple for a second time requires alot of paperwork. Anyway, I let my wife plan everything, and some of her non-mormon friends said it was one of the most beautiful weddings they had ever been to. She had the chairs arranged in the gym so there was an isle to walk down. Her dad walked her down the aisle. We both had a young nephew as the ring bearer. It was a great occasion attended by both heavily tbm mormon families, in contrast getting sealed in the temple later didn't have the same excitement. Mormonism stinks
So, I didn't have a temple wedding. The man I married fessed up to his bishop that he touched my boob (over my clothes) once when we were making out. So we weren't allowed one. They recommended we marry ASAP just civilly, then get sealed a year later.
The whole thing was treated like a big shameful thing. Just the closest family members went, and it was very solemn and awkward. The bishop married us in the relief society room. it wasn't even decorated. We still held the reception in the gym a couple months later how we originally planned it would be after our temple wedding, but barely anyone showed up. The scandal.
The only thing I really looked forward to was the photos we did for the photo shoot the same day as the reception, but the photographer lost our photos somehow and then they got destroyed when she tried to restore them. So.. that didn't even happen.
Honestly, the whole marriage feels similar to the wedding. shambles.
Random comment about clapping. I was raised Catholic and most people in the church will clap after a performance or if someone is recognized for something. But my family is Old School and will just sit there in Stony silence staring and being grumpy about the clapping. I feel awkward even now if I clap if they're not there and will stop way early.
I had my wedding earlier today. Our photographer/videographer were a married Mormon couple who do mainly secular weddings as a side hustle and therefore charged us way less. We live somewhere where theyāre not the first ones weāve met, but definitely still considered fringe. They also never directly mentioned their religion, but there were references to it on IG and their portfolio, and we didnāt know this until after weād booked and met with them.
It stuck out to us how they made sure to get shots of us sitting at the bar, clinking champagne glasses, etc. We were like waitā¦but I thought they werenāt allowed to do that/encourage others to do that? And they spent a lot of time just marveling at our venue.
Which, to be fair, it was gorgeous. But this post makes it make sense exactly why it seemed so novel and new to them, and why they would get so much enjoyment out of photographing weddings. So of course I did a deep dive into it on this subreddit when we got home.
Also - we thought it was hilarious that the wife wore a super low cut dress, but with a plain t-shirt underneath. Garments? Just plain modesty standards? And my friend whoās currently a film student was holding back a lot of choice words for the husbandās directorial decisions. She told me that all her questions were answered when I told her they were Mormons.
My active brother and sister in law had a civil ceremony and Iām so glad they did. Beautiful outdoor ceremony in Utah and they got sealed a couple months later. Was so nice that my Husband (fiance at the time) and our daughter, my brother and his partner were all able to attend.
1) Thereās always someone in the family not paying their tithing or whatever that keeps them from getting their temple recommend. So even if thereās no nevermo thereās at least a few non temple recommend holders to stand outside with the littles.
2) āYouā can now get married civilly before getting sealed in the temple in the US (as it was in most of the rest of the world for decades prior!) so if both people are temple recommend holders couples donāt have to make decisions in civil vs sealing anymore.
What I find interesting (and this is purely anecdotal) is it seems like most TBMs are opting to still only get sealed and not do a āfull blownā wedding beforehand for everyone.
3) my husband and I are both pretty simple people. I actually had to talk him into having a reception and frankly I wouldāve just assumed have forgone it myself but we were A) poor college students and really needed the presents if Iām being honest and B) since most of our family and friends could NOT go in the temple weād never hear the end of it (or even be forgiven by a few people) if we hadnāt had a reception.
As an ex-Mo who married a never-Mo outside the temple back when I was still in the church, I LOVED reading this post from the never-Mo perspective! I didn't want to get married in a gym either, so we married in a deconsecrated Catholic church and my LDS family also really got into planning for a more "traditional" wedding (after being initially confused by how everything would work). Afterward, my TBM aunt said it was the most fun wedding she'd ever been to, lol, I guess temple weddings aren't as much of a party.
Concerning your chances of joining the church, Iām sure the chance of your wife leaving the church is so much higher than you joining. Not aware of any statistics to back that up. But Mormons are taught to EXTREME lengths the importance of temple marriage. Itās their most important and sacred ordinance that is required for eternal salvation. Your wife obviously loves you more than that specific piece of doctrine which points to the fact that she is opened minded and capable of responsible judgement/skepticismā¦ all of which are traits required to leave any high demand religion.
Not to say that you should hope for her to leave the church nor would it be fair of you to expect that. Same goes for her to expect/hope for you to join the church.
My brother (exmo) married a Nevermo. My parents have both expressed their fullest confidence that he will come back to church and she will join. Now me and my wife have both left and Iām sure similar conversations are had about us. Really harmful expectation to have.
Good luck to you and your marriage! Iām glad you are direct to her family about your chance of joining their silly little cult :)
She hasn't been to church in 8 years and I expect she won't be going back. Not once did she ever say, "I wish you would open your heart to the gospel." Nope......but I went to church with her every week and sat beside her.
So I also married a Mormon. At first mother in law was visibly irritated that I wasnāt Mormon, and she would make comments to me that she just loves so and so, insinuating that she wished her son married a TBM girl from his single ward. Weāve been married 5 years and are expecting our 3rd child and neither of us are Mormon anymore š
On the question of who watches the kids when there isn't a heathen uncle, when I was a teenager I was a go to babysitter for many families. I got really good and entertaining kids while on the temple grounds.
Our temple wedding was the biggest let down everā¦
The thing with the temple is everyone hypes it up as this magical place where you learn the mysteries of God that you literally canāt talk about even IN the temple.
From my experience with the temple (wedding and about 2 years of being a TBM) Iām now convinced that no one knows WTF the temple is about, everyone feels weird about it, and everyone thinks itās a let down but they canāt SAY it.
Emperor has no clothes situation.
Anyway - we always talk about how we wish we could do our wedding over again and not have some dusty old dude ramble on about God knows what while we wear goofy outfits.
100% would never recommend a Temple wedding.
And spoiler alert, there is nothing special that happens in there. š
You talk about the temple the way a lot of people here talk of their mission experience. That it's supposed to be this amazing experience but for most it's a big let down and they don't ever talk about how much of a let down it is, as part of the culture.
That's a huge regret of many exmo women. This lady goes into detail about her temple wedding. She wrote a book called "How to Leave the Mormon Church". Alyssa Grenfell https://youtu.be/7gLAVyGy5tk
I'll have to watch it later. Just thumbing through the comments section real quick, all I can say is YIKES!!!!! There's a lot of deep-seated regret lingering on. I remember my MIL some years ago mentioning their wedding day was so stressful due to cramming her endowment and sealing into the same day. (They had to travel from out of state to marry/seal) wasn't helped by the fact they chose the salt Lake temple. She said she felt she was on a conveyor belt being moved down an assembly line and the whole thing was a sour experience. At the time their 40th anniversary was coming up and I said, "why don't y'all do a big blowout celebration and a vow renewal in front of all family and friends? Let's make it a big deal." I will never forget the Mormon pragmatism on my MIL's face, "that's not something that we do as members of the church. We go go the temple to remember our covenants." I was sort of speechless and even said, "you go back often to remember, in your words, that awful day?"
>"you go back often to remember, in your words, that awful day?" That's gold, Jerry. Gold! šš¤£š
Don't be too hard on my MIL. She's come a long way in being a little more nuanced. She can finally take a joke. There was a moment not too long ago we had a heart to heart. My relationship with her daughter is the most stable of her 6 kids. All the other Mormon marriages have had problems. There's been divorces and infidelities. Nothing I gloat about and want to say "I told you so" (I've seen the fall out) but an important lesson for all. One size does not fit all. As she's come out of her shell and trying to keep up that proper image for her children now all gone into their own lives or to her heathen non-member son in-law, she's relaxed and she's let out a more fun side of herself. We greet each other now with big hugs. There was one Sunday their ward over-lapped with our ward in the same building. They came walking in and I irreverently ran up to her, hugged her, and in mid-hug picked her up off the ground and spun her around a couple of times to the surprised people sitting on the floral furniture. She was red-in-the-face-embarrassed and laughing. But she didn't tell me to never do it again. Lol
This is exactly the case in my family - of all the siblings, the only one with a solid relationship with his partner is the one who isn't married but has been living with his girlfriend for 4(?) years.
I want to say you sound like a great person with a very kind and empathetic heart. It's very good of you to be so patient and so full of grace towards your mormon family members
I legitimately read that as "moron family members," lololllz. Clearly, I'm projecting. I'm the exmo married to a nevermo--thank (fictional) god for her--and several of my TBM family members are Jesus-fellating morons. But yes, I agree. You're incredibly gracious. It's like dealing with teenagers, they get so sulky and passive-aggressive. But you're rising above the fray WITHOUT flooding your mother's inbox with secular humanist memes and demonstrations of her limitless hypocrisy when she won't stop sending you come-to-Jesus articles and videos. I salute you.
Having a temple wedding is definitely one of my bigger regrets now that I'm out. All of our staged wedding pictures are in front of the temple, and even the candid shots are of a ring ceremony and reception in a church gym. I was also really frustrated leading up to it because no one would tell me what was actually expected of me on the day of. I had to practically wrestle the words out of my mother's mouth as to whether I needed to write vows or not (I didn't).Ā The man I married there is the reason I woke up and left, and we've been heavily discussing doing a vow renewal for our 10th anniversary, at which point our daughter will be old enough to participate and maybe remember some of it when she's grown up.
My ex husband was baptized shortly before we met. By the time we got married, we could have been sealed but I didnāt feel comfortable excluding his family from anything, so I was fine with a civil ceremony. Iām glad I got that out of my system, lol. I can see how a lot of brides would feel like that. But, the second time I got married, I definitely didnāt want the same big hullabaloo as the first time.
My first wedding was in the Ward Chapel. I was inactive and living with my boyfriend for 5-6 years when the bishop and a counselor showed up at my door and gave me an ultimatum. I'm assuming my mother sicked them on me. It was get married or be excommunicated. At the time I was still believing enough to send my boyfriend back to his mother's house for 3 months while we planned a wedding. No sex š„ŗ So I was disfellowshipped for a time, but that somehow went away after the wedding. We moved to the country and I tried to get my husband to go but found out he only went because he liked to hear me sing the hymns. It eventually led to our breakup because I wanted to be more active in church and have a healthier lifestyle but he couldn't handle it. 2nd marriage was in the temple, and I don't even remember it. I remember being extremely troubled about being sealed to someone I'd divorced and could no longer stand. I actually hated him for a while. The choices we make when we think we're doing all the right things. š¤¦āāļø
For future reference... This is the YouTube link: https://youtu.be/7gLAVyGy5tk ...while this part of the URL is tracking information that can be used to link back to your Google account: [REDACTED] It is always best to remove the tracking information before sharing YouTube links anywhere. This has been a public service announcement (with guitar).
thank you
Is it always after a question mark? Sorry, donāt know that much and am interested to understand!
No worries, many people don't know this. But it's always including and after the question mark. Always.
Yes, it's usually ?v=Ā A similar thing happens with Amazon links. The further from the original search result you are, the more little chunks of letters are added to the URL. You only actually need the .com/dp/abcdxyz/ part to get to the right product.
I love Alyssa! Sheās so relatable and articulate.
Yes, most TBMs look down on civil marriages, especially if they are Mormons not getting married in the temple. And it's always in the gym.
There was more I could've added. I think more than anything her bishop was poisoned against her and especially me. Her folks found out we were sexually active and THAT is a whole other story for another time. LMAO!!! Oh man, they tried to stage an intervention and everything. I shut that shit down when I said, "my sexuality and sexual activity is no one's business but my own and certainly none of your business." They countered saying the sexual activity of their daughter was 100% their business. I couldn't beleive my nevermo ears. "You adult daughter?!?!?!" Pretty sure they told the bishop and bishop was peeved she would not meet with him to "discuss." It's a long story. Maybe I'll share next week. Lol
Yes we need the drama!!
Lol....no shortage around this sub. Lmao!
Damn straight š
Yes moar lol sorry to blow up your inbox but I think we all would love to hear THAT shitshow of a tale!!
Lol! Oh, it was a shitshow. I'll try to write it out tonight. It got to trailer park level drama.
Holy shit hahaha I canāt wait! š
I'll let you know. If today, it will be late.
š«” youāre doing the Lardās work, Same_Blacksmith!
I posted the story just now.
Oh thank you, Iāll check it out after work!!!
'Why won't you allow me to shame you?! Don't you love Christ??'
Not always. I know of weddings that happened in the chapel for couples that were members, but baptized too recently to go to the temple, and other members that could not be sealed because the woman was already widow who was already sealed.
I think it's being allowed to record in the chapel.
My momās wedding was just in one of the side rooms (I think it was the Relief Society room). They could have done it in the gym if they wanted, but they chose to have the reception in there instead
You will hear people who claim to be friends of the bride and groom say some variation of "Others were crying tears of joy, I cried tears of sorrow."
I don't know if that's policy, but you're not allowed to record in the chapel and who doesn't record the wedding?
I went to one wedding in the relief society room.
You are šÆ on point! There is so much virtue signalling in the church (no, since your marriage doesn't "count" it needs to happen under a basketball net) I went to a family member's "regular" wedding and loved seeing them exchange vows and do all the traditional things. Wish I would've been at a good place in my life to have a beautiful, non-temple marriage! I'm seriously not surprised the women were excited about the prospect of a normal wedding!
My wedding happened fast because my very Catholic mother was terminally ill. We had the meeting with the priest (friend of my dadās who fudged the paperwork so we didnāt have to give six months notice). He asked about who would be coming and we said that there would be very few Catholics. We had Jewish friends, pagan friends, atheist friends, none of the above friends. He said fine. Iāll work with that. I found out after the event that heād come out before the ceremony to explain to everyone what to expect, they had a little hymn singing then as we went through the ceremony he explained each step of what was happening and why. My friends said it was fab. One said sheād married into a Catholic family and this was the first time sheād really understood it all. To me, thatās what a wedding is about. Itās about having everyone together celebrating the marriage
I've been to a catholic wedding and I was so confused! Your priest sounds awesome
Thank you for standing up for yourself and your family. I feel like many mormons who do civil marriages would be better off doing it at another church. Your my hero I have always had problems standing up for my self and by extension my wife and I've been learning and growing out of that and what you did was admirable. Bishops and their stupid opinions have had too much weight in my life for too long.
Honestly, while I appreciate, I can not take the credit. I was going along with whatever they wanted. I just asked the question.....Whether they felt we were being disrespected. Had I not jokingly and casually mentioned it to my folks, we would've been married under a basketball goal. It was my mom who was horrified. She found a moment, took my wife aside and said, "you are worth more than a gym." So my mom is the hero in this.
Awww! What a sweet mom you have!Ā
Kudos to your mom then!
Great post, though I do wish people wouldn't feel like they're "missing the wedding" because they're missing an old guy tediously rambling about Adam and Eve, then read a script and have them say "yes" in silly outfits. That's what Mormons think the wedding is, but it's just the ceremony the church makes them filing the paperwork contingent on. Really Mormons don't get a wedding at all. And barely a reception. I think how excited everybody got at seeing a real wedding indicates how deprived we generally are from any celebration of the couple.
Oooof, this is a succinct comment. Thanks for the insight. I do remember my folks' pastor saying during our ceremony that he has met with us together and individually and felt that, "this marriage is 100% ordained of god." I don't know if that was common rhetoric for him or it was a subtle jab at all the Mormons and the story that got around that we had to have it at another church because her church put us in a gym. But in total fairness, I think a nevermo being in my wife's family for 21 years has caused them to relax a little and not be so rigid and allow for how other live and beleive. I don't take full credit for this. They had to first be open.
That probably was a subtle jab at Mormons tbh. When Mormon bishops perform marriage ceremonies, they are instructed to state that the marriage is only for that lifetime or something to that affect. I remember my nevermo ex in laws thought it was weird and so did I. At least he was respectful enough not to bring up religious shit beyond that knowing my ex was a covert.
A temple wedding may be silly and not have the trimmings of a traditional wedding; however, you do feel like you are missing out, because you are. You're left out of the family. I was able to go to one brother's temple wedding. However, by the time my next brother got married, I was out of the church, and out in the parking lot tending kids. But I was all dressed up so everyone could have nice photos and seem together afterward. As I stood outside to catch their eyes as they walked out of the temple, it was just hectic (typical), they didn't notice. It BROKE my heart. I had stayed outside with other people's kids before, cousins, etc. But this time, with my close sibling, was sad. I vowed it would be the last time I'd ever wait outside, like second class, for anyone. I'm sure your comment was intended to help people feel like they aren't missing out. I agree that the ceremony is nothing to feel bad about missing. However, it is more about being left out, and thought of as less-than. ...guess i was triggered.
There was something I wanted to say, but I kind of got wrapped up in other points. Which is that because that is the "wedding" to so many people, that's where the emotion and big marriage moment is in Mormonism. That plus years of having been Mormon before, and being unfairly excluded from a moment that's considered the couple's big moment, definitely makes it more complicated than my "Well who cares I didn't want to go anyway." I find the sealing ceremony sad because it's yet another moment where the individual and the couple is subsumed into the organization and has no chance to express their feelings and identity, but it's not like that sealing ceremony is inherently meaningless just because it isn't inherently meaning*ful*, if only taken as an event with the inner circle of family.
Honestly, as you mention it, I'm thinking that maybe this is why Mormon weddings are still "off limits" to people outside of the mormon church. If normal person saw the garb or heard the words of the mormon wedding, they would be mortified and say CULT! Even the mormons themselves would have to come to terms with how weird it all is if they were to actually let outsiders see the mormon wedding.
My in-laws flew from Europe to sit outside the temple in the late 90s. We had a ring ceremony for their benefit in the relief society room. After the two of us left for our honeymoon, a bug went around the group and they had to travel home sick as dogs. My sister was exmo and married a nevermo and my parents paid for the event in a nice hotel with live music and dancing. I wanted dancing at the reception held in the gym but my dad nixed it because his business associates were invited so he wanted to keep it formal. My mom, sensing the perceivable imbalance, explained that the splashiness of her hotel wedding was compensating for the lack of spiritual depth of the temple ceremony. And yet the temple ceremony was quick, officiated by someone wed never met and one of several that day, booked one after another on a Saturday. I was deeply indoctrinated and accepting of all of this at the time. It's really easy to accept neglect and mistreatment and unfairness if you've already given your personal autonomy over to others. But to be clear if you had asked me then I would have said I was doing what I wanted.
I can empathize with your in-laws. No telling how many long distance drives i've made to Mormon temples just to sit outside. Just showing my moral support for Mormon family and their interpretation if support. But I've never made a trans-oceanic flight to sit outside a temple!!! Oof.....that's rough.
I'm glad we also had a reception in Europe near their home. We danced, had a great time. MIL sang karaoke with the groom and my FIL played the piano for fun.
My sisterās sealer kept calling her the wrong name and my dad, as a witness, wouldnāt say anything (probably because āwe donāt correct the priesthoodā). My mom finally had to pipe up. When/if I get married again, Iām never jumping through the hoops of the temple again.
I've seen this comment from multiple people about getting names wrong! I mean, seriously, getting a name right is the LEAST they could do!
Yeah, it was like her name was JUST āMandyā but he kept calling her āAmandaā. Just proves the point that youāre a face in the crowd to your marriage officiant.
I remember being 12, doing baptisms for the dead, and being so terrified that the baptisms were nullified because the guy kept saying my name wrong.
Yes. All the regrets. In fact, the change in 2019 that made it so people could have a civil wedding immediately followed by the temple sealing (without the year-long wait) is when I started to question everything. It was a super painful change and really broke my heart. Not because I wasn't happy about it, but then what was my sacrifice for if it could so easily be changed later? Which led me to question - what else I was sacrificing for no reason at all?? Turns out lots... Wearing those shitty underwear I'd loathed for decades. Wearing them dilligently, paired with capris/long shorts/shirts with sleeves, while living in the hottest places in the US. 10% of my income Second Saturdays Fretting about doing everything, all the time, so I could get the best eternal life. Worrying about my future sister wives So much time at meetings, callings, ministering/VT, 2-3 hr church, 20 hours/yr of general conference ....so really, I guess my temple wedding day filled with all the bad memories, helped get me out eventually.
Looking back, I have lots of regrets about our wedding. I had so much family on the outside, and they were so gracious, but it makes me so sad that they werenāt there! Not that they missed muchāsealings are super impersonal and weird! I had never been to one before my own and was thrown off by the language that I āgaveā myself to my husband, but he just āreceivedā me. I thought there must have been a mistake. I would love to choose a different dress, walk down the aisle and write our own vows (or even have vows that had anything to do with our actual marriage!) We didnāt even do a ring ceremony, just enchanged rings in the hallway before we went outside for pictures. At least we had our reception somewhere other than the cultural hall!
So, my wife later became "endowed." She went to church every week and I would go with her to support her and she not be alone. But I made it abundantly clear I would NEVER join the church. She wanted to have a temple recommend and be endowed so that she could go to all the family and friend sealing that were going on during that stage of our life. Because the endowment process takes hours, I did not go with her. My in-laws dropped her off at out home, she came through the door and burst into tears. The whole process freaked her out. She never went to another endowment. And those temple garments - they looked awful and I told her as much. She tended to only where the garments when she went to church. Her folks bought her a supply of garments that only got used for church. Lol!!! Anyway, once she attended a live sealing for the first time her reaction: "that's a big to-do about nothing. You're not missing anything by staying outside."
I was a member and married A nonmember in his fathers beautiful garden. Our bishop married us and there were no issues. But I will say that your wife will not be treated as an equal because sheās not Ā«Ā in the clubĀ Ā». The elitism that the temple creates is very real. Now that she is endowed they will treat her better ( the sisters) but they are all waiting for the day you convert. Since knowing the truths of this organization, I now laugh at them but it wasnāt funny when I was left out of things or not included. Or the remarks in RS Ā«Ā Iām so blessed to have a temple marriageĀ Ā»( your wife isnāt blessed???), or Ā«Ā hopefully he will come round in the next lifeĀ Ā» or Ā«Ā thank goodness I made the right choice to be sealed in the temple so MY family can be togetherĀ Ā» and other bs. Itās all built on a lie and a fantastical belief system by a con man. Your wife is actually very lucky that her husband is not being conned out of 10% of his income and puts his wife before a church.
Wife hasn't been to church in close to 8 years. She figured out what it was. Most of her siblings are out now. But I went to church with her every week. I likely know more about Mormonism than mormons themselves.
Thatās the difference between learning and being indoctrinated;-)
There's a reason missionaries NEVER bring bright and intelligent people to church. All those people close the door in their face.
I was married in a Utah temple almost 8 years ago. My dad, younger brothers, and best friend were not inside with me. I was told by the temple worker to look at him and not my husband during the ceremony because he was acting as God. Then we went to my grandmas, had 10-second sex for the first time and went to our reception where we had some dancing and BYU mint brownies. Iāve hated thinking about that day since. Two months ago, my youngest brother who returned from a mission last year married a āless activeā girl. They did a civil wedding and asked ME to officiate. š So there I was, tattooed, exmormon, and a female! Writing their ceremony and being ordained. Having the power to marry them. And it was only about them. No church shit. Just them and their love for each other. And it was SO HEALING. And so many people asked after how long Iād been officiating weddings. My TBM momās boyfriend was flabbergasted and asked how it was possible? I said āyeah, I just had to go ask a church that respects womenā. Iām so happy that my brother and his wife will not live life together having bad or weird memories of their wedding day.
The only way terrible traditions stop, like sitting pathetically outside of a wedding to which you aren't invited, is when people refuse to follow them.
No, you have it all wrong. You're invited to sit outside. LMAO!!!! and to take pictures with the family. Lol! It's the myopia of mormons who can't see that as problematic.
Not defending anything here, but I kind of remember something in the handbook (the rules of how to run the church) that you couldnāt have weddings in the chapel. This illustrates a couple things for me: 1. How Salt Lake feels the need to dictate every little thing to every single person in the church; and 2. How unwilling the local leadership is to deviate from anything the handbook says. How about this? How about: who cares if you have a wedding in the chapel? Itās fine and it will make the people happy and thereās nothing doctrinal about it. The level of micromanaging every little aspect of everyoneās life is astounding. Donāt get me started on Mormon funerals. Itās such a corporate power structure and so invasive of every little aspect of every personās life.
Is that ever weird, maybe they changed it. In 1984 I had a civil ceremony in the Chapel, the we got sealed at a later time. Then my sister got married in 2009 in the Chapel as well. Now to be fair, we weren't allowed any decorations other than a couple of flower arrangements, however we went all out in the gym/cultural hall for both mine and my sisters weddings. Perhaps it boils down to Bishop roulette.
I'm pretty sure it's the main reason the chapels don't have center aisles. They want to discourage it
When you start looking at a lot of things that Mormons consider untouchable (donāt call female leaders āpresidentā, no clapping in the chapel, everything in BKPās āUnspoken order of thingsā talk) you thin: who cares?
I always planned on basically eloping because my ādreamā wedding was never a possibility. I wanted to get married outside under a big old tree. I wanted to have a meal outside and then dancing all under trees and stars and fairy lights. Instead I got a boring white room, with ugly clothes, only some of the people I loved, and then a bunch of photos in front of a monument to religion. We did also do a ring ceremony and a reception in the yard, but due to Mormon expectations it was nothing like I wanted.
Mormon weddings are BLEAK and so sad. Not happy at all. Iāve never been to one that is joyous and thankfully Iāll never have to go to one again lol. My ex and I did a huge party the next day and Iām so glad we did. Live band, dancing, good food for everyone. People still talk about how fun it was! Nobody talks about the boring sealing lmao.
My sister had a civil wedding with a bishop officiating. He said nice things but then went on about how this marriage was only in this life. They had to get married on the temple to make it last. Thanks man, way to rain on the parade.
That's the ceremony in the handbook. It is so awful
My first temple wedding to go to was my new TBM DHās niece. He went in and since I wasnāt endowed I had made plans to run over to the Gateway Mall and do a little shopping. Apparently someone thought I was going to babysit? I was approached and asked and I said no, I had other plans. It was a scandal! I stood my ground and had no idea that it was expected of me. If you go to a temple wedding leave the kids home with a babysitter!
But......but......but.....if they left the kids at home, they won't be in the photos. Lol!!!!
My husband and I had our civil wedding in the park because he hadnāt been a member long enough to go to the temple. Iām so grateful that my wedding included his family and that our pictures are in front of a gazebo and not the temple. Iām also grateful that I got to wear the āimmodestā dress (small cap sleeves) I wanted to and didnāt have to change into a weird costume.
I converted to the church as a young adult now more than 20 years ago. none of my family were members and there was the emphasis on the importance of starting out in the temple. I was TBM when my spouse and I were married. The family I was married into were all TBM and many family members made it a point to attend our Temple wedding and traveled to the temple we had selected. Because they couldnāt attend the sealing, none of my family traveled to āour templeā. At the time, I had accepted that this was just part of the sacrifices we make, but in that room full of people I felt alone. When the church made the announcement that now, despite what part of the world members lift in, members could marry civilly first and without waiting be sealed in the temple, my heart broke. I realized how much had been take away from me and my family. Itās not that I donāt wish I had married never my spouse, but I desperately wished I would realized how much not being with my family on my āwedding dayā hurt me and my family. Iām now PIMO close to pulling the trigger and bowing outā¦ā¦.but my spouse and their family are all still TBM with a lot of opinions.
You are spot on in all of your observations. And good on you for putting up with your TBM wife. Hopefully, she joins you (and the rest of us) here one day.
She hasn't been to church in close to 8 years. She figured it out.
I'm sure you helped with that. Good for both of you. ššš
Not directly. Maybe unintentionally indirectly. I 100% supported her except in two areas. I was NOT gonna pay tithing and our kids were NOT getting baptized. They could decide as an adults. Everything else i supported her. Went to church. I was a non-member with callings. Was in the boy scout leadership a lot. I spent Sundays with the deacons, teachers, and priests as an advisor. Just not on Mormon spiritual matters. I knew it was all kooky. I tried to passively make it less so.
I was a convert to the church and did a ring ceremony after getting married in the templeā¦it was pretty much a regular ceremony. That said it was excruciating leaving my dad and sisters outside the templeā¦and the ceremony in the temple is nothing super special like a regular wedding. I am super glad I did a ring ceremony and being where I am now angry weddings are yet another place where the church divides families and prohibits having others participate. I personally canāt believe her bishop wouldnāt let you use the chapel but take it as a win!!! Guessing your church was much prettier and it really is the quintessential thing to walk down a center isle!
I'm a nevrmo and my wife was PIMO when we got married. Her experience with her ex-husband and the temple wedding was also so stressful to her. She said that she felt like she didn't want to marry her ex, but all of the pressure and money spent made her feel too guilty. She regretted it immediately but still gave him 2 years before she divorced him. So we decided to elope. It was amazing and so stress free. And this time she could say no and leave at any point, which felt freeing to her. She told me she could actually marry for love and not just to appease her family and the church. We didn't tell anyone for 3 months. Her family was upset with us, but it wasn't about them. She has since left the church and we're thriving.
This sounds very similar to my husband and I except that he was theoretically all the way out. We also eloped and both he and his ex-wife have expressed to me that they married because they were acceptable choices to each others' families and temple worthy. My husband still struggles with "what if the church IS true?" moments, particularly because his family uses the bludgeon of being separated from me in eternity when they're pressuring him to come back (and bring me in). The idea that he's "sealed" to her instead is a real mindfuck for him. But then I remind him that none of us are going to the CK regardless, so it's a moot point. Gotta make the most of time while we have it.
I am an exmo, but when I was TBM, my first husband was a convert. Because of that, I was fine with a civil ceremony. I wasnāt going to exclude his family over religion when we could get sealed later. However, two things: my (now ex) husband didnāt tell his parents he converted, they were super Baptists. Like, Sunday school teacher, preacher Grandpa kind of Baptist. Second, our wedding venue had a view of a temple. My ex husbands family had never been to Ut before, and after the wedding ceremony, my grandma paraded their asses over to the window and pointed out the temple. Then she said āThatās where J and C will get married next year!ā She was talking about us being sealed but they didnāt know what the fuck she was talking about. They thought she had dementia š¤£šš¤£š
Never have a Mormon bishop marry you. They may not charge, but in the ceremony, they will downplay your wedding and push the Mormon doctrines associated with temple weddings. My wife and I got married in a reception center and paid a Methodist minister to do the ceremony. She respected our wishes to keep it non-religious. It was worth it. It was also much better than the temple wedding I had with my ex. My kids had their weddings in a Mormon church. They had the ceremony in the relief society room(which was a little nicer than the basketball court), but the bishops used the ceremony to talk about how temple sealings are so much better and how they should work to become worthy of going to the temple. Then they had the reception on the basketball court.
My fiancĆ© and I are exmormons and his family is particularly huge and religious. This will be the first non-temple marriage on both sides of the family. Iām very curious how our families will react throughout the planning process and on the wedding day itself. Itās really interesting to hear about your experiences!
Being in the UK the Bishopās attitude comes across as appalling. In the first place over here we always have a church wedding in the chapel with the whole walking down the aisle and bridesmaids and everything. Because legal reasons. And then the temple later in the day. In the second place, lots of members here are married to nonmembers, and no one would be so crass or insensitive as to even imagine they deserve anything less. In the third place, church rules changed now so that even in the US the legal marriage can happen outside the temple, and then a temple sealing afterwards. Who does that bishop think he is? On numbers alone, he has to know that not every LDS woman is going to find an LDS man to marry. Canāt he be happy your wife has found a good man. Well done for getting her something better than that control freak was prepared to allow.
"Can't he be happy your wife found a good man." - Unfortunately, in Mormonism, the only thing that qualities you as a good man is if you have the priesthood and you went on a mission and returned "with honor." That's it. A pretty low bar many come to find out the horrible truth later. With me and my in-laws, it took time and a lot of strained and failed marriages of their other kids to see, I wasn't as bad as they thought. I have to give it to my MIL, she's changed. She did the unthinkable a few years ago, took me aside and tearfully apologized for any past nastiness. "If you say it to anyone I will deny it but of all my sons and daughter in-laws, you are my favorite." That's some high and unexpected praise. And to think the lowest point was when they found out I turned their daughter into a fornicator. Lol!!!!
i HATE thinking about my Mormon wedding. I have a feeling that there are a lot of women who probably feel the same way. I was married before some things in the wording changed - it was very sexist: no vows, nothing. I have often considered the idea of renewing my vows - on the beach in Hawai'i with my husband.
My 37th anniversary is coming up. I **so, so, so** wish I had done a civil wedding. And I've not been secret about my regrets - even when I was still active. 1. My in-laws were members but had never been to the temple. Because they couldn't go in, they didn't come and sit outside (it was almost the opposite side of the country and travel was a big obstacle as well). None of my husband's family attended. We did have a very nice reception in his home town but I still feel pangs of regret over them not being included in the wedding. 2. My siblings were all younger and so were all sitting outside. 3. My dream wedding was a garden wedding. The closest I could get was I planned a reception in my grandparents' beautiful yard and then weather forced us to move - to the church (ugh). 4. I felt so ugly in the temple clothes. I was embarrassed that I looked like I was wearing a stupid costume instead of looking pretty for my husband. And now, I feel badly that my two oldest children got married in the temple. They and spouses have since left the church but I wish they would have had a wedding that included all family and friends. I think I'll suggest they consider some ceremony or celebration for their 10th anniversaries. A wedding should bring family and friends together for an exciting, happy event, but no, let's split the group - some inside, some outside. š”
Hey....40th is coming up. Time to have your dream wedding/vow renewal!!!
I married my wife, and we couldn't get married in the temple because I had been divorced and getting sealed in the temple for a second time requires alot of paperwork. Anyway, I let my wife plan everything, and some of her non-mormon friends said it was one of the most beautiful weddings they had ever been to. She had the chairs arranged in the gym so there was an isle to walk down. Her dad walked her down the aisle. We both had a young nephew as the ring bearer. It was a great occasion attended by both heavily tbm mormon families, in contrast getting sealed in the temple later didn't have the same excitement. Mormonism stinks
I had an inverted experience being the exmo marrying my southern Baptist wife in the south. All of my family was/is Mormon so we thought it would be nice to have the local Mormon officiate it a a small country chapel. I found out later that most of her family threatened not to attend. And it was a super small wedding so it would have been really obvious if they hadn't. The chapel (I believe it was Methodist) told her mother that they hadn't had a policy prohibiting a Mormon bishop officiating the wedding but they made one after the event so that it would never happen again. I wasn't super familiar with Baptist. Catholics were the major religious presence in the town I grew up in so with all of that tension I was like, "well, at least there will be drinking since they aren't Mormon to loosen it up!" Nope! They don't drink either. My wife and I joke all the time about how they are virtually the same religion and don't know it.
Oh I a thousand percent wished my temple wedding could've looked like the ones I saw in movies!!!
I'm in a similar boat! My husband was raised in the church but I'm nevermo. His mom tried really, really hard to get me to join so I could force my husband into a temple marriage. She started doing this when we'd only been dating a few months! His first marriage didn't work out (obviously bc they didn't get married in the temple, only in the RS room) and he had 2 kids with his first wife. We moved in with my inlaws for a few months and she and my sister in law would. Not. Stop. I finally had to tell them that I'd seen the temple ceremonies online and would rather actually slit my throat than ever do that. We eloped, then had a ceremony a few years later. She was NOT pleased that we had our wedding at the ren faire and gave my stepsons swords for it. I've been a part of this family for 7 years, and my MIL still believes I'm the one who stole her son from the church. Out of my husband's generation, his sister is the only one still in the church!
Yeah, I completely regret my wedding in the templeā¦ my husbandās family werenāt active and didnāt have recommends so they couldnāt go in. Our only family there was my mom and dad, since Iām the oldest of my siblings and none of my extended family are active in the church. There were no kids to watch or anything. And later my bil told me how his mom was really upset she couldnāt see her son say āI Doā. I really wish we had been able to have a civil wedding and just go get sealed later if we still wanted to.
Definitely wish I would have married elsewhere, but not just for the aisle to walk down or the dress I really wanted to wear. My reason is that NONE of our family--not my parents, not his parents, none of my siblings and none of his siblings--were there. LDS church is DIVISIVE. I'll never forget the HURT and PAIN that caused my family, but my dear mother in particular.
100% wish I would have been married civilly, my Dad walking me down the aisle, looking on up to my fiancĆ©ās happy face. BUT ā¦ the church did NOT allow it back when I got married! And we thought we HAD to be married in the temple. Only people that got married civilly prior to temple marriage were all sinners! I STILL have feelings of irritation at the thought that there is no problem with people getting to do it now. Although, I am appalled at the behavior of your wifeās bishop. What a jerk! That kind of crap is evidence of men taking advantage of when afforded the allowance to command what they want and how they want it. Iām so glad yāall were able to experience a HAPPY union, rather than be married under basketball hoops since that was all you were deemed worthy of by said butthole bishop, also glad you didnāt allow him to marry you!
I am a nevermo who married a Mormon. He was very active for most of the 49 years weāve been married. I did a deep dive into Mormon history and taught him a lot of things he didnāt know. He left about five years ago. I never thought it would happen, but it was a great day.
hey! im on the other side of this!! (Mormon girl dating nevermo guy) as someone whoās dating a never-mo & JUST recently actually left the church mentally (stopped going 1-2 years ago? but always told myself ābut i still believe in it!ā) my dad had a talk to me about how āyou donāt get married to someone based on hope that they will convertā but he had āhope that [bf] will be baptizedā because my boyfriend & i have been talking about getting engaged. itās so frustrating now that iām mentally out because i know they will have something to say about it when we ONLY have a civil marriage. & i can speak on how cool a civil marriage seemed to me when i was TBM, i have a cousin whoās getting married in the temple & im her maid of honor but iām not endowed so i basically donāt have to do anything š„²
My wife believed in the basic doctrines of the church but I think opened her mind to nuanced when we started dating. A little back story: my wife has been 100% deaf since the age of 6. I won't tell the whole story but I knuckles down and learned ASL so I could introduce myself and talk to her. I thought she was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen. Attraction causes you to do extreme things. I learned a language to date her. I think that effort and genuiness played a role in her and and family accepting me as a non-believer. But I can say over the 3 years of out courtship, we had plenty of discussions where it was clearly conveyed, that she cannot have any hope I will ever convert. I accepted her beliefs and her family, but acceptance is a two-way street. She was under no illusions. I'll be honest. But can you ever really know how someone feels? They may tell you it's fine. They may even feel it's fine. But 5-7 years of marriage later, they tell you it no longer works for them. Doesn't say much for me and my confidence but I wondered if this hammer would ever drop on me. To my wife's credit, it never did. But I also went to church with her every Sunday to support her. Man......the amount of times the missionaries wanted to talk with me. LMAO!!!! I would send them away with more questions than answers. Lol!!!
I am so glad you had a celebration wedding.Ā Ā Iām an exmo married to the never mo. I grew up secretly wanting the wedding out in nature - seaside, mountains, anywhere. But I was the good little mormon who said/did the mormon things growing up. Anyways, grew up, left the church, & married my nevermo by the seaside. My TBM family was appalling at the wedding but managed to put on a happy mormon face for the nevermo friends & family; thatās what mormons do. Itās all about the facade. But my nuanced & exmo family & friends as well as the nevermo family/friends outnumbered the TBMs & were wonderful. It was a celebration of our love & commitment to each other. And the food was delicious!Ā I canātĀ even begin to say how thankful I am that I left the cult & was able to have MY wedding. I was surrounded by people I loved. Absolutely hated that as an active non temple recommend holding younger sister.Ā And now I refuse to go to temple weddings. I wonāt sit outside & I wonāt show up for pictures. Iāll show up at the reception. But as I live far from the mormon corridor itās often not worth the time off & expenses. Especially if just a typical cheap mormon reception. Iāll visit the bride/groom later when Iām out there visiting & take them out to dinner & if typical poor young mormon newlyweds - take them to the grocery store.Ā
I wish I had not married in the temple. My dad Had to sit outside. Both my older sisters had more traditional weddings and they were way better weddings. Everyone was happy enjoying themselves. Big celebration and fun! If I could do it all over again I would have followed in their footsteps and not the awful, lame Mormon temple. My biggest regret in life was Being a mormon. But hey I was raised and brainwashed in it, itās all I knew.
Mormon wedding generally suck. I would recommend only showing up for the reception. That has become my policy. Sitting outside I consider disrespectful to me and my wife . If they want a family picture it can be taken at the reception.
To answer your question, I had a temple marriage and regret it enormously! I am a convert. Baptized as a teenager. I had no idea that I could not just get married civilly, then sealed in the temple that day. Even being completely worthy, if I had chosen to get married civilly first, I would have to wait an entire year to be āsealedā Interestingly enough, there are other countries that you CAN get married first then go to the temple to get sealed. When I found that out later, it really hurt my feelings that my family situation wasnāt good enough or important enough to allow that. So I had to explain to my non Mormon family that they would not see my wedding. It hurt my mom very much who pointed out, the āfamily is foreverā was hypocritical. She is right. We had a ring ceremony a week later for my family. It was not the same as a real wedding. The bishop also made some comments during the ring ceremony that made it clear that the wedding already happened, and the ceremony was basically useless. It just poured salt in the wound for my family. I seriously regret allowing that to happen. I think it damaged my relationship with my mom on such a deep level. All the little things you dream of in a wedding when you are a little girl, I had none of those. Because I am a convert, like 5 people were in the temple room while the sealing took place. I think your bishop absolutely intended to punish or make your wedding less than by putting it in the gym. Thank goodness you had an alternative. So yea, I regret it. For me, temple marriage was just weirdness and exclusion.
Sorry that happened to you. It displays that Mormonism only works as a fringe frontier cult where it's socially compulsory to be in the church and do church, eh.....cult, things. Once the church went broad and outside the Corridor is when things started affecting mix-faith situations. So many people are harmed by Mormonism but in their hubris, the church refuses to acknowledge or see it. Dropping the one year waiting period was a too little too late crumb to appease the problem. But they still actively teach anything short of a temple marriage is not to standard. Seems like all they really did was indemnity themselves.
I love story time! First, I loved your last post, such a feel good story :) second, I love when you said not seeing a wedding but taking photos like you did. I had never thought of that perspective and youāre so right! Story time! My husbands immediate family was trying to everything in their power to stop us from getting married. Like tried to get my husband to kill himself because itād be better than marrying me, manipulated, gaslit, the whole shabang. My husbands whole family is Mormon, most of my extended family is Mormon, but 50% of my immediate family were in or out. My family was extremely supportive and my parents (who were continually brought into the drama via my husbands parents who would surpass talking to my husband and I and go straight to my parentsā¦ didnāt work in their favour, if they think Iām a stubborn unfiltered twat, where do they think I got it from lol) have helped us get out of the hole my in laws put us into. We planned on having our reception at my familyās airbnb because my in laws said they didnāt want a party at their house and when we found an airbnb we could have a party at, in laws freaked out saying it was too small (we wanted just our families and close friends there, more my husband since my immediate family plus a cousin was planning to fly out) because they wanted to invite everyone from their ward. They forced us to go out and find a church that we could bookā¦ mid summer, with less than a month to spare. We tried looking, but the only one we were okay with was booked on the day we were supposed to get married. Having more people would mean weād have to find caterers and it just got too chaotic. My MIL said they wouldnāt give us a dime for the wedding or after if we got married and that they wouldnāt help us set up whilst bragging about how amazing she has been at setting up other peopleās weddings and events. She also tried to get me to date my SILās boyfriend at the time.. who was also underaged and said Iād really like his mom lol. They continued their drama when they found out I flew in 4 days early (a week and a half before our wedding), went WAY harder and finally MIL texted my husband word for word saying she would stop attacking me if we postponed the wedding by a few months. My husband, whom already nearly attempted suicide had I not been there to hold him back, saw this as a window of opportunity to get some space from the drama. Well my husband and I had fucked quite a few times before we got married, we were each others firsts, so he used that as a means to convince me to push back the wedding. Bishop and SP roulette is a real thing. I agreed because in my experience all the people who screwed up were let off and told to refrain from more until they got married. Well, my husbands SP was not one of those people. We had to hand in our recommends, SP got in touch with my SP, so I had to do TWO interviews about it while my husband only had to do the one, I had to call the temple to cancel the wedding THREE days before we were supposed to get married. My family lost deposits on the airbnb and their flights, I had to spend more money to cancel and reschedule my flight to pick me up early, I was humiliated, I was gossiped about, my SP told his daughter who approached me after 3 months of being completely isolated about it (I know this woman VERY well and I know that the whole ward probably knows we fucked). My husband broke up with me and got back together a few times. His family never even asked about me AND STILL WENT TO OUR RECEPTION DINNER WITH THEIR WHOLE FAMILYā¦ my husband went too. I was livid. After a couple months of the drama calming down, my husband decided he did want to get married, but he didnāt want to tell his family. I told him he should let his family know, but understood and respected his decision not to. We were tight on money and figured a bishop (who happened to be the son in law of my SP) from an old ward who was an old friend of my dadās (dad was excommunicated when I was 9) could officiate. I didnāt know if the wedding would get cancelled again, so I didnāt want to tell anyone and I wanted a small wedding anyway, so we decided to just have my immediate family members there and we had the wedding in my parents living room. Unfortunately my SP said I wasnāt allowed to ask the bishop I wanted and was forced into choosing the bishop of my home ward. The bishop of my home ward who a year prior refused to give me my living ordinance to get married to my husband because my bishop wanted me to get married to my ex boyfriend. This same bishop has major marital problems that his wife frequently involves my mom in (like doing all of their laundry..). When I asked why we had to choose this guy I was not given a proper answer. So my wedding day consisted of me, my husband, my parents, brother and sister with their spouses, and the bishop with his wife whom I did not like at this point any longer. It was still a chill day, we went to a steakhouse after, went back home and played Mario kart. Looking back is so crazy. Weāre from different countries and decided to get married where my husband is from, my family would have had to fly over just to sit outside the temple, while my husbands family who was actively trying to rip us apart would have been allowed in. How does that make sense? My wedding dress was 2k plus an additional 1.5k to make alterations to make my dress garment approved (I served a mission, so I was wearing garments already), only to be told that I was unworthy of getting married where I wanted to get married. The celestial room made me feel peaceful because it was a quiet place I wouldnāt be disturbed in, I begged my SP for months to give my recommend back to me because I wanted to feel closer to god and I needed him at that time in my life, to be told no. Obviously as I look back Iām happy that I didnāt get married in the temple and Iām happy that the right people were there, however I was still deeply impacted by temple marriages. It ruined me for years, especially when my husband left 4 years prior to myself. Fuck the Mormon church :)
just remember that the waiting outside is essentially a lie about what is going on inside. they're letting you think that you'd want to be in there with them when you wouldn't, what's happening in there is completely bananas, and fatally embarrassing. what you think it looks like, isn't what it looks like. they take off their tux and wedding dress and put on a ridiculous bakers hat costume. and then when it's over they put back on their normal wedding clothes before they emerge into the daylight to maintain the pretense that they were wearing their formalwear the whole time. if you don't know what it looks like go check out NewNameNoah's youtube channel. and the worst victims of this lie are the brides (not all, but most probably) who don't know what they're in for beforehand. they think they're going to get a lovely picturesque wedding ceremony and instead are creeped the hell out, and then have to sit through a cringeworthy nightmare for several hours before they can cry in a closet.
Yeah, trying to explain Mormon weddings to my never-mo boyfriend is always a fun time. But to answer your question about babysitting kids: there are usually enough kids who arenāt old enough to have gone through the temple to take care of the really little ones. So, before I was the gay uncle that took care of all the kids (Iāve always been the gay uncle, they just didnāt know it), I was the uncle who babysat because I hadnāt been through the temple and therefore couldnāt be there for the ceremony.
We ALL secretly (or openly) wish we had a different ceremony Good for you for insisting on someone else. The ceremony the bishop would've done is terrible too. I've been to them. The wording makes it very clear this is a subpar wedding and only until death and it will end and is only semi real We all have a heathen uncle to watch the kids. Or some older teens
I was married outside in a meadow, a very simple ceremony, surrounded by wildflowers and family and history, so full of heartfelt meaning and joy. I am so glad I didn't do the whole temple thing. Those who are subjected to temple weddings are seriously shortchanged. It breaks my heart.
When I married a non Mormon at the church, the bishop wanted us to do it in the relief society room. I said nope, and we were married in the chapel.
I am also nevermo but have read many posts here where people express sadness that their wedding ceremony was not about them at all but rather about the church, that various people they care about could not attend because it was in the temple, etc. Have also seen some angry/sad posts about the Mormon funeral experience (that one is far from unique to Mormonism - I have also heard loved ones say they found Catholic funerals quite hurtful because the mass was all about Catholic theology and the church, not about the deceased, and I have one friend who attended his niece's wedding with his multiple LGBTQ family members there and the priest chose to lecture on the sins of same sex marriage - at a wedding!)
Yes I regret getting married in the temple and not having a civil wedding. My mom and 3 of my siblings couldnāt even go inside
The chapel or the gym. It really doesnāt matter. They are both really ugly and not where I would want my ceremony.
I'm pretty much you if you switch the genders. My poor FIL is the dedicated temple babysitter because I dye my hair rainbow for all temple weddings that I'm invited to "attend" and I freak the morms out. It's my mission to photo bomb as many couples as possible. Back to my FIL. He has 3 daughters and 1 son. My wedding was the only one he was allowed to witness. I often think about how sad that is. Why can't he go to the temple, you ask? Coffee. He won't give up his coffee, and that's the only reason he can't go. He does all the other things, even tithing. Imagine the in-laws' surprise at our open bar and Presbyterian pastor (he's family). The nieces were bouncing off the walls at the thought of actually watching a wedding. Anyway, I'm just saying I feel ya.
I married a nevermo while active in TSCC (though I was already not believing, I continued to attend because my parents pressured me) and we got married by my bishop in the Primary room at the church, where they have the music and lessons for kids under 12. I did NOT want to get married under a basketball hoop because I always found that tacky. We held our reception at a friend's house who lived down the street from the church building. I had the "wait outside the temple" experience at my brother's wedding, as I was unworthy, having never gone through the temple to get my endowments, mostly because I was never a full tithe payer. So essentially, because I was poor, I couldn't watch my brother get married. Weird, right?
Never heard of a wedding in an LDS chapel. All the ones I've been to including my own where in the Multi-purpose room (GYM). I looked it up in the Handbook. The wording is a bit confusing, but I think that's a no. 35.5.15 Weddings and Receptions Receptions may not be held in the chapel unless it is a multipurpose area.
I've looked into it recently in the general handbook. The actual ceremony can be in the chapel. Not sure of that was the case 21 years ago but her bishop was not gonna let it be. I've been told that there was a time when members treated the chapel of their building more reverently than they do today. My wife said when she was a primary girl, they were not allowed in unless they were in Sunday dress. So, there could be some of those old sensibilities I this story, too.
I married my wife, and we couldn't get married in the temple because I had been divorced and getting sealed in the temple for a second time requires alot of paperwork. Anyway, I let my wife plan everything, and some of her non-mormon friends said it was one of the most beautiful weddings they had ever been to. She had the chairs arranged in the gym so there was an isle to walk down. Her dad walked her down the aisle. We both had a young nephew as the ring bearer. It was a great occasion attended by both heavily tbm mormon families, in contrast getting sealed in the temple later didn't have the same excitement. Mormonism stinks
So, I didn't have a temple wedding. The man I married fessed up to his bishop that he touched my boob (over my clothes) once when we were making out. So we weren't allowed one. They recommended we marry ASAP just civilly, then get sealed a year later. The whole thing was treated like a big shameful thing. Just the closest family members went, and it was very solemn and awkward. The bishop married us in the relief society room. it wasn't even decorated. We still held the reception in the gym a couple months later how we originally planned it would be after our temple wedding, but barely anyone showed up. The scandal. The only thing I really looked forward to was the photos we did for the photo shoot the same day as the reception, but the photographer lost our photos somehow and then they got destroyed when she tried to restore them. So.. that didn't even happen. Honestly, the whole marriage feels similar to the wedding. shambles.
So much regret. I plan to have a vow renewal (but since you aren't allowed to do vows in the temple, I guess it won't technically be a renewal, haha).
I regret my wedding in the temple. My husband and I have talked about doing a vow renewal to have the party we've always wanted. š
Random comment about clapping. I was raised Catholic and most people in the church will clap after a performance or if someone is recognized for something. But my family is Old School and will just sit there in Stony silence staring and being grumpy about the clapping. I feel awkward even now if I clap if they're not there and will stop way early.
I had my wedding earlier today. Our photographer/videographer were a married Mormon couple who do mainly secular weddings as a side hustle and therefore charged us way less. We live somewhere where theyāre not the first ones weāve met, but definitely still considered fringe. They also never directly mentioned their religion, but there were references to it on IG and their portfolio, and we didnāt know this until after weād booked and met with them. It stuck out to us how they made sure to get shots of us sitting at the bar, clinking champagne glasses, etc. We were like waitā¦but I thought they werenāt allowed to do that/encourage others to do that? And they spent a lot of time just marveling at our venue. Which, to be fair, it was gorgeous. But this post makes it make sense exactly why it seemed so novel and new to them, and why they would get so much enjoyment out of photographing weddings. So of course I did a deep dive into it on this subreddit when we got home. Also - we thought it was hilarious that the wife wore a super low cut dress, but with a plain t-shirt underneath. Garments? Just plain modesty standards? And my friend whoās currently a film student was holding back a lot of choice words for the husbandās directorial decisions. She told me that all her questions were answered when I told her they were Mormons.
My active brother and sister in law had a civil ceremony and Iām so glad they did. Beautiful outdoor ceremony in Utah and they got sealed a couple months later. Was so nice that my Husband (fiance at the time) and our daughter, my brother and his partner were all able to attend.
Momos are cults
1) Thereās always someone in the family not paying their tithing or whatever that keeps them from getting their temple recommend. So even if thereās no nevermo thereās at least a few non temple recommend holders to stand outside with the littles. 2) āYouā can now get married civilly before getting sealed in the temple in the US (as it was in most of the rest of the world for decades prior!) so if both people are temple recommend holders couples donāt have to make decisions in civil vs sealing anymore. What I find interesting (and this is purely anecdotal) is it seems like most TBMs are opting to still only get sealed and not do a āfull blownā wedding beforehand for everyone. 3) my husband and I are both pretty simple people. I actually had to talk him into having a reception and frankly I wouldāve just assumed have forgone it myself but we were A) poor college students and really needed the presents if Iām being honest and B) since most of our family and friends could NOT go in the temple weād never hear the end of it (or even be forgiven by a few people) if we hadnāt had a reception.
As an ex-Mo who married a never-Mo outside the temple back when I was still in the church, I LOVED reading this post from the never-Mo perspective! I didn't want to get married in a gym either, so we married in a deconsecrated Catholic church and my LDS family also really got into planning for a more "traditional" wedding (after being initially confused by how everything would work). Afterward, my TBM aunt said it was the most fun wedding she'd ever been to, lol, I guess temple weddings aren't as much of a party.
Concerning your chances of joining the church, Iām sure the chance of your wife leaving the church is so much higher than you joining. Not aware of any statistics to back that up. But Mormons are taught to EXTREME lengths the importance of temple marriage. Itās their most important and sacred ordinance that is required for eternal salvation. Your wife obviously loves you more than that specific piece of doctrine which points to the fact that she is opened minded and capable of responsible judgement/skepticismā¦ all of which are traits required to leave any high demand religion. Not to say that you should hope for her to leave the church nor would it be fair of you to expect that. Same goes for her to expect/hope for you to join the church. My brother (exmo) married a Nevermo. My parents have both expressed their fullest confidence that he will come back to church and she will join. Now me and my wife have both left and Iām sure similar conversations are had about us. Really harmful expectation to have. Good luck to you and your marriage! Iām glad you are direct to her family about your chance of joining their silly little cult :)
She hasn't been to church in 8 years and I expect she won't be going back. Not once did she ever say, "I wish you would open your heart to the gospel." Nope......but I went to church with her every week and sat beside her.
Got it. Mustāve missed that part where you mentioned she left
So I also married a Mormon. At first mother in law was visibly irritated that I wasnāt Mormon, and she would make comments to me that she just loves so and so, insinuating that she wished her son married a TBM girl from his single ward. Weāve been married 5 years and are expecting our 3rd child and neither of us are Mormon anymore š
On the question of who watches the kids when there isn't a heathen uncle, when I was a teenager I was a go to babysitter for many families. I got really good and entertaining kids while on the temple grounds.
Good for you, for having a really decent and loving wedding ceremony! I also read your "parents found out" post. So, is your wife still a member?
Our temple wedding was the biggest let down everā¦ The thing with the temple is everyone hypes it up as this magical place where you learn the mysteries of God that you literally canāt talk about even IN the temple. From my experience with the temple (wedding and about 2 years of being a TBM) Iām now convinced that no one knows WTF the temple is about, everyone feels weird about it, and everyone thinks itās a let down but they canāt SAY it. Emperor has no clothes situation. Anyway - we always talk about how we wish we could do our wedding over again and not have some dusty old dude ramble on about God knows what while we wear goofy outfits. 100% would never recommend a Temple wedding. And spoiler alert, there is nothing special that happens in there. š
You talk about the temple the way a lot of people here talk of their mission experience. That it's supposed to be this amazing experience but for most it's a big let down and they don't ever talk about how much of a let down it is, as part of the culture.