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Well, I think it's fair to say France has been a Republic for a shorter amount of time than the US. That may be a charitable way of viewing the original post.
Are they seriously considering that before the 5th republic (which 1958 refers to), the country wasn’t the French Republic, let alone France? You don’t reset the clock every time you do a constitutional reform. It such an arbitrary argument to win a discussion. It’s like saying that the United States only exists since the civil war.
If you're looking on the political side then there could be a different. Like you wouldn't say the Kingdom of France the same political entity as the French Republic.
Yeah, like how Hungary in its current form has only been existing since 1989, even though it was a kingdom frim 1001 to 1523, then it was divided into three parts, then it was reunited and existed under the Habsburgs until 1848, where a new, independent Hungarian government came to be, that was abolished a year later, then in 1867, Austria and Hungary became a single country, then after WWI we got torn to pieces for no apparent reason, after WWII came the Soviets, then in 1989 we arrived at the current version of the country. Pretty wild, but it is the same Hungary as it was a 1000 years later, but broken.
It's a completely fair response when someone is lauding their country's years of history like it's some kind of high score, which is how these conversations start 90% of the time.
It is a hiscrore. :D Beeing able to maintain a country over millenia is a ancestral high score. Only those countries that will peacefully joiun the galatic empire that humanity will create will be able to use cloud.
Why do you think Moscovia stole other countries identity to be considered "older and greater" instead of going rags to riches Mongol Bottom Bitch to Second Biggest empire?
But, to be fair, almost no American would ever say that. Only somebody who has been educated specifically poorly who would attempt to make that distinction.
Francia/Frankish Kingdom only since about 500 AD when it fell to the Franks (Germanics). Before that it was known as "Gallia" to the Romans and was populated by Celts
That's just the ruling class. The people are still the same. Very few times were they completely wiped out and replaced thats why those times stand out. What's the point in totally depopulating a whole area you plan to rule if there is no one left to rule over and siphon off the wealth?
Not just the ruling class, the ruling class had armies, armies are made of soldiers who have families. It was many thousands of people. The Germanic people's "invasions" was more of a migration of entire groups. The Germanics fused the peoples and the cultures of the areas they took over with their own. That's why they were fairly successful in filling the power vacuum and spreading after the fall of the Roman Empire. They put themselves at the same level as the natives which allowed for lasting integration not long after they took power. They made equalitarian laws, such as the visigothic code.
Romans had a process to romanize conquered peoples and have them assimilate the Roman culture. Germanics instead took a middle ground.
Why do you think they were so cooperative in the 30s
To add to this, my family is considered German but their place of residence before they immigrated is now French. They moved too soon to be Nazi and too late to be confederate, but in this current political climate, I’m afraid of what they could have been because right now I find them very distasteful.
Even then, the first to be called King of France instead of King of the Franks was Philip II Augustus in the 12-13th centuries, but I get where you're coming from.
Thats not that odd considering how feudalism worked. Basically if the french king wanted to declare war he used his own vassals and vassals that he needed to have a contract with. Usually this turned into a clusterfuck.
Plus France is largely the REASON we Americans won. Britain was splitting its resources AND France was helping arm us. So yes, they most certainly existed when they did that.
Except he isn't wrong, at least not completely. The US actually is older than the current iteration of France's Constitutional government. And even if you go back to the First Republic, it is about the same age.
The France that is currently around has a completely different identity, political system, and history than the one of pre 1790. Arguably, it's a completely different country in the same space and a similar (but also different) name
You could argue that the old France is the same France as the modern one, but by that argument, the US was founded at the dawn of the Plymouth and Jamestown colonies. You either count predecessor regimes or you don't
Edit, even Frances boarders changed from 1790 to today
The US culture is very new, but as far as continuous governments go? Actually fairly old. Europe’s cultural groups has been there for far longer, except they hate each other and themselves so their governments rise and fall a lot. And if you go by strict definition of geography, everywhere is equally as old because the landmasses are older than any of our societies
I pointed this out on a thread specifically responding to a comment about the relative age/duration of governments, and got massively downvoted. The U.S. govt is around 4th oldest still operating in the world. It’s just a fact. Not sure why people react so negatively when this is pointed out.
France? Not really controlled by England since the 1400s (other than Calais and other small bits from time to time) , but England still made the claim until 1802. France has been effectively independent for 600 years or so.
1. Changing a border does not reset the clock on the age of a country.
2. If you decide to count predecessor regimes, France is WAY older than Plymouth or Jamestown colonies
3. If you don’t count predecessor regimes then every democracy is a new country every few years, which is clearly not how we normally think about the word country.
Now, to be fair, concepts like country or nation or a people or ethnicity are very slippery categories, and it’s a little silly to get too hung up trying to argue about their definitions. Ultimately it’s a stupid pudding competition anyway. France might be a very old country, but its citizens have much more in common with contemporary people in other countries than they do to ancient French people so what does it matter? All societies are constantly reinventing themselves, and that only got turned up to 11 since the 1800’s anyway
Nah, disagree. The change came about from the people that lived there, therefore, same place, same people, same culture, same country
Academically I understand what you are saying, but I think that is the only way it applies
By your argument would the current Germany also be the same as Nazi Germany? same people, place, and culture no?
What about Russia and the USSR?
What about turkey and the Ottoman empire
Rome and Italy?
Is Kievan Rus Russia?
Wtf is Poland?
Yes. The Germany that tried to invade the rest of Europe is mostly the same Germany of today. The same way the UK ofbtoday is still the same country that invaded a quarter of the globe. We're not very proud of that history but we are also very proud that our countries don't do those things anymore. Feels a bit childish to try and hide away from or distance ourselves from things that very clearly happened.
I asked the alexact same question to another guy earlier and he said the exact opposite while also arguing that the republic of France is the kingdom of France
Lmao
It's completely wrong. France is much older than the US. The only somewhat underlying truth is that the French are much better in reforming their political system. In that, they are no longer the same system introduced hundreds of years ago.
I never made an argument about adding land changes a country, but you do you there I guess. I seriously don't see how that argument is remotely related to mine
Also no, the French Republic (full official name of the current country) was founded in 1792. Prior to that, it was not called the French Republic (it was the kingdom of France) which means it was a different country with a completely different government and a different culture.
To say that the French Republic is the same as the kingdom of France is like saying the Ottoman empire is Turkey despite the fact that both countries are very different in every way except for location/name (Ottoman empire would have also been called the Turkish empire or even turkey informally)
How would you define the transition between 2 different countries? Or are you of the mindset that once a country forms, it never goes away?
>I never made an argument about adding land changes a country
Yes you did.
Direct quote from your previous comment - "even Frances boarders changed from 1790 to today".
If you weren't making an argument about adding land (changing borders) then why did you make a point of mentioning it in your argument about why France isn't a continuous country?
>Also no, the French Republic (full official name of the current country) was founded in 1792. Prior to that, it was not called the French Republic
It was, and still is, called France.
>and a different culture.
By that argument America has a different culture since the Jim Crow laws were repealed and so is less than a century old.
Hold up, wait a minute. If different culture is one of your arguments then we can be damn sure the USA's culture isn't anywhere near the same as it was at the start.
In a certain kind of way... he is right, about the modern french state.
Another thing is the french nation and culture, that is completely appart from the french estate
Accurate. The United States has had a longer continual government system than France. But if we're talking the country itself maintaining continous territorial integrity? France beats them by 1 thousand years.
The question is if America was completely changed and lost its democracy and became a dictatorship or something else entirely would you count that as a new country or the same one?
This has technically already happened once in the country's history. The Articles of Confederation were the first form of government for the US, and the states were basically each their own nation all cooperating under a very loose governing body that had very little direct power over the states. The Articles had too many issues, though, and created conflict between the states. This led to the abandonment of the Articles and the development of the current Constitution of the United States, which unified all of the states under a single federal government that had more power than the individual states. At that point, the view of the US went from a collective of individual nations to a single country.
... unless you count Republican Rome.
And you probably should count Republican Rome because they actually fit all the criteria of a nation state.
But yeah, in terms of the modern nation state, in terms of the ones that exist today, the US is among the oldest. We took some concepts the British had been pussyfooting around and proved they worked if applied correctly. Then the French proved they DIDN'T work if NOT applied correctly, so thanks for that guys!
No seriously, thanks French. Your lessons of what not to do have been extremely informative to protect the rights of many nations and peoples. It was an impressive service to humanity even if it didn't exactly cover France in glory at the time. Thank God and de Gaulle, though, you guys did actually get it right in the end.
Yeah there's a lot of assumptions about a kingdom being the same as a nation. Most "nations" originate in the 19th century when a specific regional language and value system was forcibly pushed on an entire country, and all dissent and difference was eradicated. Francization, Anglicisation, Hispanicization...all done for the sake of making a population that is easier to manage and manipulate.
This argument isnt all that bad. Its a question of how do you date a country/nation. Germany and Italy both are, generally, considered younger than the US because those countries AS countries didnt exist until the 1800s. However, the nations/civilizations are much older. The argument can be applied to France on similar grounds, with the modern French Republic being relatively young, while France as a civilization is far older. This argument isnt stupid, its just that they and their interlocutor havent clearly defined what they are talking about
Well... He isn't entirely wrong but not entirely right.
French Republic is younger than US Republic. But as a nation France dates back to Franks Kingdom while the US nation started as a settlement of European nations (including France).
Thing is that isn't exactly wrong. By the other argument, the US was founded at the dawn of the Plymouth and Jamestown colonies. You either count predecessor regimes or you don't.
The US actually is older than the current iteration of France's Constitutional government. And even if you go back to the First Republic, it is about the same age.
If you'd like to argue that the French Kingdom was the same as the French Republic in any meaningful way... well, I'm free to disagree.
Same population, same language, same culture
If you want to judge a country simply by what rules it, then you do you, but I think a much more appropriate viewpoint is by the people themselves
It's not the same language though. France had a ton of separate languages, including the progenitor of modern French . They were mostly all Latin based, but most regions have a distinct language and many still exist. Lots of European languages weren't standardized until the mid to late 1800s (eg. Italy too).
And English hasnt gone through changes? Go listen to old and middle being spoken. It is a completely different language. Here's a sample. Without knowing its the Lord's Prayer, you would have no clue what the old and middle say. ESPECIALLY spoken.
[https://imgur.com/FONeb1N](https://imgur.com/FONeb1N)
The 5th French republic was indeed founded in 1958 and the 1st in 1958.
The exact moment France started isn't fully defined, but the most agreed moment is the Clovis's baptism, around 500
He's kinda right though?
When is a country "founded"? When the current institutions were put in place? When it conquered the last bit of its current territory? When it was inhabited for the first time?
Which didn’t happen until napoleon. France as a unified national identity is a social construct of the state. Prior to this there were many local and regional identities.
But then no nation is really older than that. Unified national identities weren't a thing in the Middle Ages, and they only slowly evolved in the modern era. The Kingdom of France as such had existed since 843
>But then no nation is really older than that.
Yep, that's the point. The idea that, say, the medieval kingdom of France is the same socio-cultural 'place' as the modern state of France is a framework humans imposed on history, not some kind of objective fact like DNA or thermodynamics.
Exactly! Which is why this facepalm is nonsense. The kingdom of France and the nation of France and the regime of the French state are different things.
Oh in that case France is still waiting!
Seriously there are like 8 major nationalities in France, not counting the Basque. Norman, Breton, Occitan, Provencal, Flemish, Gascon, Angevin, those are just the ones I can think of off the top ot my head.
There's things in the back of my parents fridge that are older than the US.
Actually that's a bit of a lie anything in the fridge that old would have developed a culture by now.
But I do have family documents like wills that predate the US. I actually own things from my own family that are older than the US.
The American revolution against English rule was a huge inspiration for the French to rise up against their own monarchy some years later.
Since the early 19th century, American statesmen have always been honoured visitors to France in everlasting gratitude for that inspiration.
He's technically correct. The United States as a country is older than the current government of France which is less than 80 years old. However if we consider 'france' to be whatever calls itself France then you could go back millenia. Incorrectly right is probably a good adjective.
If France = French Republic, then sure. But no one with their mind intact would say the country called France didn't exist before it became a republic. I live in Norway and if we decided tomorrow to do away with our kingdom and become a republic instead, his logic would be that Norway would then be 1 day old, which would obviously be a ridicilous statement.
I have heard this argument made by Americans before, and they all seem to miss the point that there is a difference between a country and its way of government. If they want to make the argument that France's current way of government is younger than the US, they would be correct. But that is never the point they are *actually* making. They are saying it in order to make some sort of gotcha moment to make the US' history seem comparable to European countries.
Is the US the oldest standing democracy in the world? Arguably, yes. Is it the oldest *country* in the world? Obviously not
My fellow Americans have a wide gamut of intelligence and knowledge. It’s a shame that the dumb (or let’s be nice, ignorant ones) have the greatest confidence and volume.
Hawaii being added wasn't a coup of the sitting government resulting in a new government.
I disagree with the idea of the Op image, but these two events aren't really comparable either.
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The difference between knowing something and understanding it.
Well, I think it's fair to say France has been a Republic for a shorter amount of time than the US. That may be a charitable way of viewing the original post.
Are they seriously considering that before the 5th republic (which 1958 refers to), the country wasn’t the French Republic, let alone France? You don’t reset the clock every time you do a constitutional reform. It such an arbitrary argument to win a discussion. It’s like saying that the United States only exists since the civil war.
Obviously the US only has existed since 1959 because that's when Alaska and Hawaii joined the Union.
If you're looking on the political side then there could be a different. Like you wouldn't say the Kingdom of France the same political entity as the French Republic.
I don’t get it, so i don’t like what you’re saying 🇺🇸
But we have plenty enough of these in Europe, as well. I kind of think it's a human condition thing.
Yeah, like how Hungary in its current form has only been existing since 1989, even though it was a kingdom frim 1001 to 1523, then it was divided into three parts, then it was reunited and existed under the Habsburgs until 1848, where a new, independent Hungarian government came to be, that was abolished a year later, then in 1867, Austria and Hungary became a single country, then after WWI we got torn to pieces for no apparent reason, after WWII came the Soviets, then in 1989 we arrived at the current version of the country. Pretty wild, but it is the same Hungary as it was a 1000 years later, but broken.
You mean stupidity doesn’t only exist in the U.S.? These posts are so snobby, aren’t they? I’ve met many morons overseas.
"U-S-A! U-S-A!"
It's a completely fair response when someone is lauding their country's years of history like it's some kind of high score, which is how these conversations start 90% of the time.
It is a hiscrore. :D Beeing able to maintain a country over millenia is a ancestral high score. Only those countries that will peacefully joiun the galatic empire that humanity will create will be able to use cloud. Why do you think Moscovia stole other countries identity to be considered "older and greater" instead of going rags to riches Mongol Bottom Bitch to Second Biggest empire?
But, to be fair, almost no American would ever say that. Only somebody who has been educated specifically poorly who would attempt to make that distinction.
I thought it was 2006, when the name "French Fries" was reinstated.
Easy mistake, this one is the beginning of Beligum
No, they are still called Freedom Fries, but there was a failed petition to rename the country to "Freedom" to match.
Fraternité, egalité, pommes frites!
It’s gone through many name changes but it’s been called France since 843.
Wasn't it even called 'francia' (fran-kia) before then?
Francia/Frankish Kingdom only since about 500 AD when it fell to the Franks (Germanics). Before that it was known as "Gallia" to the Romans and was populated by Celts
Hey! That's where Asterix is from!
And Obelix and Dogmatix!
… Getafix and Cacofonix !
Getafix always got me.
The dog is called Idefix
in the english version: dogmatix
Why would we care about the English version? Dogs name is Idefix.
The pun is what every René Goscinny fan should care about, what ever the language.
Obelix 🥰🥰🥰
No, Obelix, you can't have any magic potion. I told you hundreds of times, you fell in the cauldron when you were little.
So they're not even French, they're Germans! /s
I mean, yes. Like the kingdoms in Iberia and Italy
That's just the ruling class. The people are still the same. Very few times were they completely wiped out and replaced thats why those times stand out. What's the point in totally depopulating a whole area you plan to rule if there is no one left to rule over and siphon off the wealth?
Not just the ruling class, the ruling class had armies, armies are made of soldiers who have families. It was many thousands of people. The Germanic people's "invasions" was more of a migration of entire groups. The Germanics fused the peoples and the cultures of the areas they took over with their own. That's why they were fairly successful in filling the power vacuum and spreading after the fall of the Roman Empire. They put themselves at the same level as the natives which allowed for lasting integration not long after they took power. They made equalitarian laws, such as the visigothic code. Romans had a process to romanize conquered peoples and have them assimilate the Roman culture. Germanics instead took a middle ground.
Why do you think they were so cooperative in the 30s To add to this, my family is considered German but their place of residence before they immigrated is now French. They moved too soon to be Nazi and too late to be confederate, but in this current political climate, I’m afraid of what they could have been because right now I find them very distasteful.
But didn’t the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor first?
“The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?” “Forget it. He’s on a roll.” https://youtu.be/ep-xgd_eETE?si=P0gptt3goqnfVC1a
And today I learned! Thanks for sharing!
Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres!
Even then, the first to be called King of France instead of King of the Franks was Philip II Augustus in the 12-13th centuries, but I get where you're coming from.
The french with their new, modern name. In Greece we still refer to them as Gauls
What is the "it" that has been called France, though? That has changed quite a lot since 843.
And England used to own more land in France than the French crown sooooo yea.
*the Norman/French rulers of England.
Thats not that odd considering how feudalism worked. Basically if the french king wanted to declare war he used his own vassals and vassals that he needed to have a contract with. Usually this turned into a clusterfuck.
Gosh darn time travellin fries
Plus France is largely the REASON we Americans won. Britain was splitting its resources AND France was helping arm us. So yes, they most certainly existed when they did that.
Yes, but how long has it been called Frwnch?
843am yesterday? See, it's still younger than the US.
Oh the gaul of some people.
This is a top notch comment
Those of us that can read try to do extra to make up for this.
Except he isn't wrong, at least not completely. The US actually is older than the current iteration of France's Constitutional government. And even if you go back to the First Republic, it is about the same age. The France that is currently around has a completely different identity, political system, and history than the one of pre 1790. Arguably, it's a completely different country in the same space and a similar (but also different) name You could argue that the old France is the same France as the modern one, but by that argument, the US was founded at the dawn of the Plymouth and Jamestown colonies. You either count predecessor regimes or you don't Edit, even Frances boarders changed from 1790 to today
The USA is older then most European countries.
My history teacher drilled this into us. The US is simultaneously one of the youngest and one of the oldest countries, depending on how you count.
The US culture is very new, but as far as continuous governments go? Actually fairly old. Europe’s cultural groups has been there for far longer, except they hate each other and themselves so their governments rise and fall a lot. And if you go by strict definition of geography, everywhere is equally as old because the landmasses are older than any of our societies
I pointed this out on a thread specifically responding to a comment about the relative age/duration of governments, and got massively downvoted. The U.S. govt is around 4th oldest still operating in the world. It’s just a fact. Not sure why people react so negatively when this is pointed out.
iceland holds the top spot doesnt it?
I think so, and UK is also very old
People hate it when they’re told they might be inferior to the US.
But it wasn't independent at that time? Right? It was an extension of England.
France? Not really controlled by England since the 1400s (other than Calais and other small bits from time to time) , but England still made the claim until 1802. France has been effectively independent for 600 years or so.
The US colonies that the other comment was mentioning as counter argument
You are 100 % correct. Most idiots just jump on the bandwagon, because they don’t understand how geopolitics works and changes nations.
1. Changing a border does not reset the clock on the age of a country. 2. If you decide to count predecessor regimes, France is WAY older than Plymouth or Jamestown colonies 3. If you don’t count predecessor regimes then every democracy is a new country every few years, which is clearly not how we normally think about the word country. Now, to be fair, concepts like country or nation or a people or ethnicity are very slippery categories, and it’s a little silly to get too hung up trying to argue about their definitions. Ultimately it’s a stupid pudding competition anyway. France might be a very old country, but its citizens have much more in common with contemporary people in other countries than they do to ancient French people so what does it matter? All societies are constantly reinventing themselves, and that only got turned up to 11 since the 1800’s anyway
Nah, disagree. The change came about from the people that lived there, therefore, same place, same people, same culture, same country Academically I understand what you are saying, but I think that is the only way it applies
By your argument would the current Germany also be the same as Nazi Germany? same people, place, and culture no? What about Russia and the USSR? What about turkey and the Ottoman empire Rome and Italy? Is Kievan Rus Russia? Wtf is Poland?
Yes. The Germany that tried to invade the rest of Europe is mostly the same Germany of today. The same way the UK ofbtoday is still the same country that invaded a quarter of the globe. We're not very proud of that history but we are also very proud that our countries don't do those things anymore. Feels a bit childish to try and hide away from or distance ourselves from things that very clearly happened.
Yes, Germany is still Germany None of the others are equivalent
And at what point in history do you consider Germany to be Germany then?
I asked the alexact same question to another guy earlier and he said the exact opposite while also arguing that the republic of France is the kingdom of France Lmao
Well I agree that is incredibly inconsistent lol
It's completely wrong. France is much older than the US. The only somewhat underlying truth is that the French are much better in reforming their political system. In that, they are no longer the same system introduced hundreds of years ago.
Should we also start counting the US as new when we admitted Hawaii and Alaska? Governments change, it's been France this entire time.
We do already. That's why Puerto Rico isn't a state. It starts the clock over and we lose our record. /S
Dammit. Thanks a lot, Obama.
I never made an argument about adding land changes a country, but you do you there I guess. I seriously don't see how that argument is remotely related to mine Also no, the French Republic (full official name of the current country) was founded in 1792. Prior to that, it was not called the French Republic (it was the kingdom of France) which means it was a different country with a completely different government and a different culture. To say that the French Republic is the same as the kingdom of France is like saying the Ottoman empire is Turkey despite the fact that both countries are very different in every way except for location/name (Ottoman empire would have also been called the Turkish empire or even turkey informally) How would you define the transition between 2 different countries? Or are you of the mindset that once a country forms, it never goes away?
>I never made an argument about adding land changes a country Yes you did. Direct quote from your previous comment - "even Frances boarders changed from 1790 to today". If you weren't making an argument about adding land (changing borders) then why did you make a point of mentioning it in your argument about why France isn't a continuous country? >Also no, the French Republic (full official name of the current country) was founded in 1792. Prior to that, it was not called the French Republic It was, and still is, called France. >and a different culture. By that argument America has a different culture since the Jim Crow laws were repealed and so is less than a century old.
Hold up, wait a minute. If different culture is one of your arguments then we can be damn sure the USA's culture isn't anywhere near the same as it was at the start.
No, because the Constitution allows for adding of States.
The us of today is not the us of 1776.
In a certain kind of way... he is right, about the modern french state. Another thing is the french nation and culture, that is completely appart from the french estate
Yeah, this isn’t a facepalm, it’s r/technicallythetruth
OP needs to farm their upvotes because r/AmericaBad
He also reposts stuff like “my dad died and I texted him on accident” posts and pretends they are his. Yeah, karma farmer.
I mean, politically wise, you could say they’re right. Sides, it’s one guy. The USA has like 330 million people
Accurate. The United States has had a longer continual government system than France. But if we're talking the country itself maintaining continous territorial integrity? France beats them by 1 thousand years.
I'll say this about France, I like their toast.
And their fries.
Don’t forget the kisses
And their salad dressing
And bread?
And my axe
And my sword
Braids!
Trying really hard to not say 'maids'.
and their wines
They’re from Belgium
The question is if America was completely changed and lost its democracy and became a dictatorship or something else entirely would you count that as a new country or the same one?
This has technically already happened once in the country's history. The Articles of Confederation were the first form of government for the US, and the states were basically each their own nation all cooperating under a very loose governing body that had very little direct power over the states. The Articles had too many issues, though, and created conflict between the states. This led to the abandonment of the Articles and the development of the current Constitution of the United States, which unified all of the states under a single federal government that had more power than the individual states. At that point, the view of the US went from a collective of individual nations to a single country.
What should be blowing your mind is how very new the Nation State really is. You may not like it, but the US is one of the oldest
... unless you count Republican Rome. And you probably should count Republican Rome because they actually fit all the criteria of a nation state. But yeah, in terms of the modern nation state, in terms of the ones that exist today, the US is among the oldest. We took some concepts the British had been pussyfooting around and proved they worked if applied correctly. Then the French proved they DIDN'T work if NOT applied correctly, so thanks for that guys! No seriously, thanks French. Your lessons of what not to do have been extremely informative to protect the rights of many nations and peoples. It was an impressive service to humanity even if it didn't exactly cover France in glory at the time. Thank God and de Gaulle, though, you guys did actually get it right in the end.
Yeah there's a lot of assumptions about a kingdom being the same as a nation. Most "nations" originate in the 19th century when a specific regional language and value system was forcibly pushed on an entire country, and all dissent and difference was eradicated. Francization, Anglicisation, Hispanicization...all done for the sake of making a population that is easier to manage and manipulate.
Denmark and Sweden would like a word
one of the oldest
Who the hell were the brits fighting at Agincort in the 1400's then? Feel like Shakespeare might want a word
France: the kingdom was formed in 476 The current France was created in 1958. Take your pick.
This argument isnt all that bad. Its a question of how do you date a country/nation. Germany and Italy both are, generally, considered younger than the US because those countries AS countries didnt exist until the 1800s. However, the nations/civilizations are much older. The argument can be applied to France on similar grounds, with the modern French Republic being relatively young, while France as a civilization is far older. This argument isnt stupid, its just that they and their interlocutor havent clearly defined what they are talking about
Well... He isn't entirely wrong but not entirely right. French Republic is younger than US Republic. But as a nation France dates back to Franks Kingdom while the US nation started as a settlement of European nations (including France).
Totally. One person writes some shit and that means 300+ million ppl believe the same thing.
What if 300 million people write one dumb thing each?
that's called truth social, but it's 300 million dumb things by one guy
‘Murica!
That's pretty much twitter
Thing is that isn't exactly wrong. By the other argument, the US was founded at the dawn of the Plymouth and Jamestown colonies. You either count predecessor regimes or you don't. The US actually is older than the current iteration of France's Constitutional government. And even if you go back to the First Republic, it is about the same age. If you'd like to argue that the French Kingdom was the same as the French Republic in any meaningful way... well, I'm free to disagree.
Same population, same language, same culture If you want to judge a country simply by what rules it, then you do you, but I think a much more appropriate viewpoint is by the people themselves
It's not the same language though. France had a ton of separate languages, including the progenitor of modern French . They were mostly all Latin based, but most regions have a distinct language and many still exist. Lots of European languages weren't standardized until the mid to late 1800s (eg. Italy too).
And English hasnt gone through changes? Go listen to old and middle being spoken. It is a completely different language. Here's a sample. Without knowing its the Lord's Prayer, you would have no clue what the old and middle say. ESPECIALLY spoken. [https://imgur.com/FONeb1N](https://imgur.com/FONeb1N)
Well the PRC was created in 1949 so that makes China one of the youngest cultures in the world. /s
The 5th French republic was indeed founded in 1958 and the 1st in 1958. The exact moment France started isn't fully defined, but the most agreed moment is the Clovis's baptism, around 500
Francia = France? Are we sure?
He's kinda right though? When is a country "founded"? When the current institutions were put in place? When it conquered the last bit of its current territory? When it was inhabited for the first time?
When its inhabitants gained a joint identity, would probably be a closer interpretation.
Which didn’t happen until napoleon. France as a unified national identity is a social construct of the state. Prior to this there were many local and regional identities.
But then no nation is really older than that. Unified national identities weren't a thing in the Middle Ages, and they only slowly evolved in the modern era. The Kingdom of France as such had existed since 843
>But then no nation is really older than that. Yep, that's the point. The idea that, say, the medieval kingdom of France is the same socio-cultural 'place' as the modern state of France is a framework humans imposed on history, not some kind of objective fact like DNA or thermodynamics.
Exactly! Which is why this facepalm is nonsense. The kingdom of France and the nation of France and the regime of the French state are different things.
Oh in that case France is still waiting! Seriously there are like 8 major nationalities in France, not counting the Basque. Norman, Breton, Occitan, Provencal, Flemish, Gascon, Angevin, those are just the ones I can think of off the top ot my head.
Having a national and a regional identity is not mutually exclusive though :)
So if you are texan you are not american?
Going by that logic Netherlands are like today years old
This is what the French get for putting Jerry Lewis on a pedestal.
The number of people inadvertently telling on themselves in this thread is hilarious.
The most funny is a factory of St. Gobain in the US, which has a memorial stone in its facade stating 'founded 1665'
While that's actually a pretty cool fact, it has a critical flaw. France's governing body may have undergone changes, but it was still "France."
The Gaul of some people.
There's things in the back of my parents fridge that are older than the US. Actually that's a bit of a lie anything in the fridge that old would have developed a culture by now. But I do have family documents like wills that predate the US. I actually own things from my own family that are older than the US.
God I wish there was an IQ test required before using social media
There is. Anything over 70 gets you banned from x
It’s a voluntary test with an automatic 100% for not participating. 🙃
France probably has cheese and alcohol older than the usa. 😅
I mean he’s right tho when talking about the French government, seems like just another facepalm American hate bait post
The American revolution against English rule was a huge inspiration for the French to rise up against their own monarchy some years later. Since the early 19th century, American statesmen have always been honoured visitors to France in everlasting gratitude for that inspiration.
The Gaul of some people to say things like this.
He's technically correct. The United States as a country is older than the current government of France which is less than 80 years old. However if we consider 'france' to be whatever calls itself France then you could go back millenia. Incorrectly right is probably a good adjective.
If France = French Republic, then sure. But no one with their mind intact would say the country called France didn't exist before it became a republic. I live in Norway and if we decided tomorrow to do away with our kingdom and become a republic instead, his logic would be that Norway would then be 1 day old, which would obviously be a ridicilous statement. I have heard this argument made by Americans before, and they all seem to miss the point that there is a difference between a country and its way of government. If they want to make the argument that France's current way of government is younger than the US, they would be correct. But that is never the point they are *actually* making. They are saying it in order to make some sort of gotcha moment to make the US' history seem comparable to European countries. Is the US the oldest standing democracy in the world? Arguably, yes. Is it the oldest *country* in the world? Obviously not
If you could call the us a democracy
The gaul of some people.
What makes you think this is an american problem? Every country has dumbasses. If you don’t think that, you’re also a dumbass.
On a side note, did you know that triangles shrank France? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTyX\_EJQOIU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTyX_EJQOIU)
A Belgian farmers also shrank France. He moved the border marker because it was in his way and nobody noticed for ages.
Keep going…
Charlemagne frowns upon these shenanigans
Lafayette just popped out of thin air I guess
What's with all the morons from Europe assuming all Americans are like 1 dipshit on Twitte todayr. Good job dumb asses
The David against common reason fight...
I wonder where's that La Fayette guys was from...
My made up national identity is older than your made up national identity!
My fellow Americans have a wide gamut of intelligence and knowledge. It’s a shame that the dumb (or let’s be nice, ignorant ones) have the greatest confidence and volume.
Vatican City is less than 100 years old.
‘Frwnch’?? I read that in Gonger’s voice.
Would you like your country to be judged by the idiots that post things on the internet?
Not knowing the difference between “France” and “the First French Republic” is rather asinine.
“Americans” like they all live in the same mindset 🙄
He isn't wrong, but he isn't right either. The french republic is younger than America, however france as a nation is much older than the US
r/technicallythetruth ?
They can identify as Americans so long as they don't pretend to be an authority on common subjects like actual history.
I think they forgot to take basic American history because at a super low level it’s taught that the French HELPED IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION
That’s pretty much like saying the USA didn’t exist until August 21, 1959, when Hawaii was admitted as a state.
Hawaii being added wasn't a coup of the sitting government resulting in a new government. I disagree with the idea of the Op image, but these two events aren't really comparable either.
No guys, he’s talking about the Frwnch Republic!
Kingdom of France be French Republic aren’t the same
Yes this one stupid American clearly represents the rest of them 🤦♂️
"Hold our wine & cigarettes" France
Charlemagne enters the conversation…
What about that comment shows that they are an American. Just cause you read something dumb doesn’t mean they’re an American.
Kay
What about Italy? 1861.
So who the f.ck put “wretched refuse” on the SOL?
First sentence is wrong, everything else checks out. What was that line? About having the right facts but coming to the wrong conclusion?
Yeah but is it the same France is y’all surrendered so many times