Thordan, Nidhogg, Zenos, Yotsuyu, Asahi, Amon have entered the chat.
Edit: As noted below, Valens too.
And Athena.
And Scatch/Diabolos.
And Ivalice Ultima.
"Woe betide the man who stands opposed to the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear. Woe betide the man who stands **with** the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear."
That was more of a "pop".
I wanted something more. Something that would balance the scales against what he did. Preferably something visible on the other shards.
Sorrows of Werlyt heavily references both Neon Genesis Evangelion and Gundam, I would say you’ll get the most out of watching Eva if you haven’t seen either.
Neon Genesis Evangelion. So's the other reference, but the guy whose decapitated head fell into the blood-like liquid didn't deserve to die like that, while the guy who got his head bitten off had it coming.
The Weapon raid series is also a bit of an Evangelion reference in itself.
I mean we killed Yotsuyu's personality which made her become Tsuyu, and it could be argued that killing a personality is the same as killing the person.
I would argue two of those first ones explicitly get redemption and the other gets some but proxy.
Also yotsuyu 100% counts as a redemption. It's "complicated" but it's also not even remotely subtle.
If it's the two I'm thinking, they aren't redeemed, they just get context of who they used to be. You don't get redeemed for being a murderer just because I find out you used to volunteer at an orphanage. If anything it makes who they become all the more tragic
He was yeah, Regula actually teamed up with us but less because he saw us as the 'good guys' and more because he wanted revenge for what happened to his men and we were really the only people that could help.
Honestly, I can imagine if Regula didn't get merc'd by Zurvan, we might have had a chance to come to some sort of accord with him. Despite being a legatus, he seemed to have a reasonable head on his shoulders.
I wouldn't have minded him being our rival instead of Zenos, but I get that the story wasn't meant for that.
He was motivated by completely selfish reasons. He only helped us to get his fight. He only stopped killing because it wasn't getting our attention anymore.
Correct. He realized we did not share his priorities. So he helped us meet our goals in hopes that we would do the same. He learned to cooperate. Some might even call that the first step to friendship.
And a good thing she is as she's has saved many lives since she switched sides. Killing her would give people revenge. But she became who she became to get revenge. So how far back do we go? How many people to we kill before every debt is paid? Or do we give people a chance to do better? Be better?
No matter how awful Zenos was, it is also true that the universe couldn't have been saved without his help. 🤷🏾♀️
So true. Besides helping save the universe, he also destroyed the Garlean Empire. 😂
I just realized if you look at Zenos' resume, he sparked rebellion, killed numerous Garlean officers, destroyed the Garlean Empire, prevented the 8th rejoining and saved the universe.
Rest in Peace, Lord Zenos. You did a ridiculous amount of good for a villain.
I wouldn't call Emet a "good guy", he just isn't vindictive and knows he has lost. He implies at the end of Endwalker that part of the reason that he cancels the resurrection is that he knows that it's inevitable that he will one day attempt to revive his people once again.
Yeah, in End Walker, with his last appearance, he basically says he would've done the same thing with his memories and doesn't regret his actions.
The main thing is Emet-Selch's actions are understandable and sympathetic to a degree. He wants to restore his people, and he's basically been walking alone (Lahabrea REALLY went off the deep end long ago, and was basically a husk of his former self, Elidibus has been deteriorating mentally for aeons due to him being the will and heart of Zodiark), even though we all realize how evil he is for treating all the inhabitants of the source and the reflections as nothing more than small collateral for his plans. He basically doesn't recognize the fractured living people as living people.
This is a stark contrast from most villains who are almost cartoonishly evil (Zenos, Nidhogg, Thordan, etc... all being closer to Lex Luther in complexity)
And the reason why was because he was the most active of the three of them.
Constantly body hopping burned his soul out, unlike Emet who stayed with a single body, rested for long periods of time on repeat until he founded the Garlean empire and got easy clone bodies that wouldn’t degrade his soul with repeated use.
Honestly a swap fic with the two of them doing the opposite role, Emet constantly body hopping and Lahabrea not doing it as much, would be pretty interesting.
Ohh I thought it was something more to do with how >!Lahabrea had the corruption in his soul and it slowly corroded him or something, given he rejoined with the half that he cut out of himself due to the merge with his wife.!<
That's the thing about Lahabrea, he had so much going against him that it's probably impossible to even tell which soul-crushing problem in his life was the straw that broke the camel's back. With all he had going against him, it's a wonder he didn't skew even further and end up like Fandaniel.
True, but at the end of the day, his whole MO was wanting a thrilling fight with his self proclaimed rival, literally didn't care who he trampled on to experience it.
I really don't have much sympathy towards him. It's like those extreme sport athletes who do urban parkour without any safety equipment and die due to an accident. Like I feel bad for their friends and family, but eh...
You *shouldn't* have sympathy for him. He was happy to doom the our world for the salty runback. Being able to understand his motives, how nihilistic he was before he met you then how obsessed he was for following that singular high once again, does not mean he warrants sympathy.
Zenos is supposed to act as a sort of mirror for the WoL. The truth is, he's not entirely incorrect with his last monologue with your character, but he doesn't understand motive. He is driven just to pursue that battle high, having become so obsessed with the feeling that it's the first thing that's ever really given him purpose. You, as the IC Warrior of Light, are driven by the people you protect, the people you have come to care for, the bonds you create over the course of your adventure; they are your purpose, even if you answer that you two aren't that different. And that ultimately is the question of good and evil.
I think what's important to distinguish is that not being a good person doesn't mean you're an evil person.
Emet-Selch never really did what he did with a conscious, evil mind. If you really internalize what he says to you in Shadowbringers, he is quite literally telling you that everyone you know and love including yourself is less than a life in his eyes - we unconsciously step on ants when we walk around town and we don't mind that burden and guilt either when it happens.
Athena consciously committed wrongdoings towards her own friends and colleagues and manipulated everyone around herself for her own benefit, she truly IS evil - but Emet-Selch is a deranged man who lost his mind with his yearning for home and his people and began to see the world in front of himself as a fractured reality, a cruel joke, a nightmare of sorts.
For Emet to be evil, he would've had to have an evil motivation of sorts like... I dunno, "I really don't like the Warrior of Light because their face is ugly and they made new friends while MY friends are dead!!", something to that petty extent. Trying to save your own friends after they discarded their lives to make sure you get to keep living in peace and happiness just isn't evil and it doesn't come from a place of genuine evil.
I'd even argue Emet-Selch's position is even more tragic. In his version of Amaurot, everyone views us as children. But when we went back in time to Elpis, our aetheric density is so miniscule, the Amourotine barely see us as an individual entity, we basically are masquerading as a familiar/creation. But this means that by shadowbringers, deep down, he did see the fractured people of the different worlds as children, but his obligations to his people, his friends, and as the convocation of the fourteen, he still feels he had to commit mass genocide to what he considers to be children to accomplish his goals
I always felt that this part of Emet-Selch was greatly written.
In Endwalker, we meet a man with a hard shell and a soft inside who acts tough but then does a good thing when he's convinced.
In Shadowbringers, we meet a man with a soft shell and a hard inside who acts like a friendly, helpful jester but tries to genocide the whole planet in actuality.
Combining those two versions of Emet solidifies what we see in Amaurot - he's dutiful towards his own people and he WANTS the rejoining to happen, but he doesn't hate Eorzea or its people. He simply believes that what has to be done has to be done.
It's important to also note that Emet, upon seeing the dominant shard of Azem for the first time in what is apparently centuries, finally has a glimpse of hope for another path that isn't just genocidal rejoinings one after another.
"But with a soul such as that, mayhap there is another way... one that does not require bloodshed..."
He spends all of 5.0 trying to make you remember the ancient world and more specifically, remember him and Hythlo, so that he could count you as a genuine ally. It culminates in him recreating the capital city with a shade of Hythlo (with whom he leaves the Azem crystal to give to you once you end his misery) to try and jog your memory, and even that doesn't work. The man is clearly overcome with grief and sorrow and lashes out at the final confrontation. He then finally, relieved of his burden and realizing the WoL is not Azem but is the worthy inheritor of their soul, retreats to the aetherial sea to watch and wait to see if you can succeed where the Ancients could not.
And as I have said a few times before, imagine this scenario:
FF14 9.0 sees a new Calamity, one that changes the world forever. Nothing is as we knew it. It kinda looks like it in some spots, but it's all off. It's all kinda wrong. All these people are kinda like what we knew but also not.
The expansion is about undoing that Calamity, about bringing back the world we knew, the people we knew, the places we knew.
If the quests all point you in that direction would you do it or would you stop playing?
As Solus zos Galvus, he did literal Nazi shit to the people across Ilsabard. He stoked Garlean grievances to rile up their militarism and sent them out across the world. The crimes against humanity he did, just as Solus, are too numerous to mention, and he did not do it just with the stroke of a pen. In his youth, Solos fought and led troops.
As Emet-Selch, he spent 12,000 years enacting planetary genocide either directly or indirectly 8 successful times. On the Source alone he helped build the Allagan Empire, an empire so brutal that the Garleans look at it with justifiable disgust. He also says actual Nazi shit to our faces to justify his planetary genocide. I mean that literally, by the way. "I do not see you as people, therefore I am not guilty of murder" is a paraphrase of what the Nazis said about the Jews, gays, trans people, Romani, disabled and other "undesirable" people they subjected to their industrial genocide
Hades is evil. He is beyond *any* other Final Fantasy villian. The man in the picture OP posted is a good man, but that's him from the past. Before he compromised his morals, before he lost Azem and Hythlodaeus. 12,000 years of loneliness, isolation and fear transformed him into a monster. It's tragic and sad, and we *should* feel empathy for him, but it doesn't make him any less evil.
It's been years so I could be forgetting something, but I don't think Nidhogg belongs on that list. The war started for a good reason. The dragons were betrayed. But he did take his rage out on innocent people. Especially as the war dragged on past human lifetimes. He fought people who weren't alive when he was betrayed. And then he'd so given in to anger that he couldn't be persuaded to look at things any other way and had to be stopped the hard way.
Nero is "evil" is in a way, but rather than outright genocidal evil, he is more of an amoral character, not caring what happens to others so long as he gets what he wants. He plays the typical overly enthusiastic scientist who wants results but is willing to cater whoever funds his experiments. It just so happens that this time he falls under the employment of Cid, who is definitely a heroic and moral scientist/engineer so Nero is "redeemed."
I would argue that Nero isn't redeemed. It's just that his current best option in order to further his individual goals is by being employed by Garlond Ironworks (and remember, he's employed by Jessie, not Cid).
Often Nero annoys me and makes me wonder why we put up with him. But I guess he does help offset all the good that surrounds him and can lead to some entertaining interactions sometimes.
Bro he straight up bullies and gleefully kills one of his own engineers in early ARR because the guy mumbled something to someone next to him. Nero is a loveably fun asshole but that's not the behavior of a morally ambiguous character.
Edit: Nevermind I forgot it was a spy, resume simping for Nero
I fucking hate Zenos. I do not get why people love him.
Fandeniel? He's so broken and lost that he's gone functionally/literally insane.
Emet-Selch? Has the pressure of an entire civilization's past and lost future on his shoulder.
Hell, even Yatsuyu was acting out of a very real and raw place of resentment and trauma.
Zenos? All I got from him is that he wants to almost die again and will drag the entire world with him.
I love how absolutely unhinged Zenos is. I have plenty of nuanced villains already (hi Emet), but sometimes you just want a villain you can beat up because he's just beyond rational morality. He's depressed, feels alive while fighting, ergo he's going to destroy the world just to provoke a fight to feel something again. It's his whole reason for existing now. How the hell do you reason with that?
Answer: Kick his ass to the seven hells and back.
> I love how absolutely unhinged Zenos is. I have plenty of nuanced villains already (hi Emet), but sometimes you just want a villain you can beat up because he's just beyond rational morality.
I do get that. And I do like Kefka for similar reasons, though nostalgia and being a sprite might help with that. Just there was a fun to him that I just don't get from Zenos. That kind of character rarely does it for me, at least as a primary antagonist.
Zenos is the perfect villainous foil to our player character. Not the RP fanfic some people have in their heads about their Warrior of Light, but the hard canon character that we play. As blank as our WoLs are in order to accommodate said RP fanfics, there are a few things that are hard canon about the person we play.
We're strong. We never back down from a challenge. We continually seek new challenges no matter how great. We are a stranger at first to everyone we meet. We value life and protect those around us.
No matter how you imagine your WoL, in the story of the game all of those things are true.
Zenos is the dark mirror of that character. He's strong. He never backs down from a challenge. He continually seeks new challenges no matter how great. He is a stranger even to people who know him. He doesn't value life beyond its pleasures and cares for nobody.
In Stormblood this just means he's a bump in the road on our journey, another challenge to face. But after Stormblood, he evolves into an exquisite counterpoint to Endsinger's nihilistic worldview. He lives for one thing and one thing only, yet that is all he needs to completely dismiss everything Endsinger holds as undeniable truth.
That's why we team up with him against her. Even if your WoL hates his guts, he is never going to buckle under the weight of despair. He walks his own path to his own end and never knows a moment of regret.
Yes, he's a monster and deserves to die for everything he's done, but part of what he is also resides within us. When all is said and done, that, we cannot deny.
zenos and endsinger are the two main poles of nihilism end singer in passive nihilism (life meningless might as well die) and zenos is active nihilism (life only has as much meaning as you make)
No, they are right. Zenos says exactly that to Jullus in Garlemald.
While what gives Zenos meaning might be hedonistic, he believes that what gives a person meaning in life is up to them. Hedonism and Nihilism are not mutually exclusive.
Bro became our #1 fan even above G'raha and Alisaie, for him there was NEVER a question of winning or losing with us, we'll win no matter what, that's even why he's surprised we haven't killed the Endsinger yet (and let's be fair, it was the despair moment where you basically thought it was a no match and waiting death) , he's the one saving us by being sassy so we got a motivation boost to kick his ass after this fight
Remember when Omega tried to erase the WoL while in it's simulated reality, and Midgarsormr tanks it instead? Yeah, you actually got saved by Zenos.
Zenos forced his way in and broke Endsinger's hold over Ultima Thule, partly because dragons have demonstrated that kind of thing before, but also partly because Ultima Thule is ruled by dynamis. Zenos has to be one of the biggest sources of dynamis on the world. Everything that guy does is that kind of limit-break passion that even makes him a menace even Elidibus is low-key scared of. (And as a precursor, Elidibus barely knew what dynamis even is, so he sees Zenos as a beast that defies all explanation.)
He also face tanks all of Endsingers attack, esp the LB3 tank requirement one and the one straight after. Well he is on that Mothercrystal powered high but still. Dude just wanted to 1v1 you and wanted you to cutscene skip the Endsinger, I respect that.
I think people with chronic depression can tell you both they understand him and that they are relieved you don’t.
Zenos is living a personal hell as nothing ever stimulates him and this is one of the worst things ever. Imagine living a life where you just want to end it, but also you want for life to prove it is worth living. The constant “drag the world with me” is more of a “please prove me I’m wrong” cry, from a chronically depressed person’s PoV… and the worst part is that he somehow… comes back from places he thought he could not come back.
Even at the end, all he can think is: “how disappointing.” Not even what he thought would relieve him was successful. I hope he comes back in the future just not as a fighter, but as someone who’ll stop another apathic person and just convince them that they are not alone in their suffering and that such suffering is as much of a burden as a drive for improving on anything they want. That despite everything, those little exciting fragments of time are pointers that there may be something better, something stimulating, and that as scientists walk into the unknown unsure who’ll get their research (e.g. Lavoisier researching up until he gets executed, not caring about the fact this is pointless for himself), so should they discover as much as they can, to be sure they can say “I didn’t find anything, despite me actually keeping up the search for the whole time” instead of “I interrupted my research”
I like Zenos because his entire character is "fight me" and the voice actor sells it. The fact that he ends up just being a metaphor for the player ultimately just wanting to fight bigger and badder bosses was great and a fun send off to the expansion that closes such a long running story.
I like well written characters, they're fantastic and some of the most memorable stories in games. But sometimes I also just want a villain who's just about wanting to fight.
We defeated him in combat once, and he was worried he'd never feel that thrill again SO HE SLIT HIS OWN THROAT
Then when he got resurrected he was like "Guess I gotta beat this wol up and chase that high again"
That's the coolest shit to me lmfao.
Then the dude shows up going "okay, stop stalling and kill this thing so we can have a fight" fully believing we can do it because we beat him once. He takes over our body and talks to the scions, not to harm them but just to let us know that he could if he wanted to. But they're not even worth his time
He's unhinged and insane and that's very fun compared to all the 4d chess playing bbegs. There's no talking with him because the only thing he wants it to 1. kill the wol or 2. die while fighting the wol
His single-mindedness can make him seem like a one-sided character - but in a world of FF14 with such an array of diverse and complicated characters, I appreciate the charm of his singular, obsessive to an absurd degree devotion.
The fact that his actions resulted in the ultimate conclusion of Endwalker highlighted and interesting contrast to me with Shadowbringers: You can do all the right things and still lead the world to its doom. You can destroy everything and still lead to its salvation.
It shows me the world isn't so simple.
Also Zenos proposes an answer to Hermes's flawed premise. If there is nothing to live for then you forge ahead (HA!) and make your own path. In Zenos's case his entire pursuit is to see elation, a spark of life, in his (what he sees) a world made of cardboard, drab and weak until he met the WoL.
Yeah. The Endsinger, Xande, the whole civilization with Ra La at the end of The Dead Ends -- they got big sad and wanted to die.
Zenos sees the problem of "we've done all there is to do" and instead of falling to despair and offing himself, he says "I better look fucking harder" and "I will create the conditions that will lead to something to do". He *refuses* to give up even when everything is tedious nothing, he's just not shouting about how much of a passionate shounen protag he is the entire time. He only gets revved up when there's something to be revved up about.
> instead of falling to despair and offing himself
No, he does do that the first time. Literally slits his own throat before he can come down from the battle high.
Zenos doesn't wax poetic about his tragedy like all the other characters do, and we're only given it in passing mentions--no cutscenes to drive the point home or other NPCs to beat us over the head with what we ought to be feeling.
He has spent multiple expansions on a level gajillion character fighting the same ladybugs outside of Limsa Lominsa and they all die so quickly he has never been able to see his full rotation. He can't just "leave" or "play a different game" or "go crafting", because it's all just as dull and he's stuck here.
Then you show up and you're a fucking proper Extreme Trial for him.
Now he can have fun. Here's a previously totally-anhedonic guy who has never known fucking *fun* or a challenge in his life and he finally finds it fighting you.
You are the first instant there has been a spark of fucking life and light in his otherwise dull grey existence--not dark, not sad, just *nothing*.
And just like you, he only wants to have fun.
zenos is controversial but liked because he's a character with an obsession, in particular one with the main character (you). he lacks fulfillment outside of it, and there's genuine complexity there visible in his last moments during stormblood and his endwalker scenes that shows how simultaneously complex yet hollow his character is.
he *knows* he's nothing more than what he is: that's the inherent pull of it, because he is chasing what everyone else has in the only way he knows how, which is through horrifying obsessive violence. he is the prime example that we cannot save everyone, even ideologically, from the evils of the world— including themselves. he's an echo of emet-selch, whose generational grief bore a loveless child who in turn bore an empty grandson that does not understand happiness or love except in the fleeting moments of adrenaline that he can only reach through horrific feats of cruelty.
he's a similar character to kirei of fate/stay night infamy ironically, although i don't like kirei all that much. you don't have to like him or anything. this is why some do, is all i'm saying. i find him fascinating and i'm glad he's dead, finally, because it's the perfect conclusion to his character arc.
Zenos was groomed to be a tool for his father. By design, he was abused until he became what he is. How do you think *Fandaniel* is more compelling than him when they're both batshit nutjobs who really only differ in how they present that insanity? "Oh but he's so broken and sad, muh insane xD! So deep! So compelling!"
I think you're being deliberately obtuse if you can see why Fandaniel is the way he is but won't even bother to *consider* why Zenos is the way *he* is?
Like, the justification IS there. It's nobody else's fault if you choose to ignore it because you find him annoying or whatever.
You not liking his motivations doesn't mean they don't exist.
Thing is, that Fandaniels story is shown in game, and we even get to meet with his unsundered self and get to know who he was, while for Zenos you have to go to the lodestone side stories in order to learn it.
Not every character needs to be the deepest person ever. It's actually more realistic and adds variety to have some people that are pretty single minded and unredeemable.
My main issue is that he's just boring. Completely dull.
No interest in him whatsoever so the final fight felt completely stupid and the "rivalry" felt forced. My wol, like myself just doesn't care about him.
I wanted the option to tell him F off and just walk away and leave him there. Like, dude, you're not worth the effort required to kill you. He was literally that insignificant and uninteresting to me.
I have often wondered whether the reactions to Zenos split meaningfully along gender lines. As a woman, I just can't relate to his dick measuring hyper-competitive vibe, and I certainly had no interest in fisticuffs. But since I only have a sample size of one, it's not worth much!
(Editted because typing is apparently very hard today.)
Well I can say as a male that nah, I hated this dude. I felt a smidge of sympathy in that he wasn't given much of a chance and that the only person he considered a friend, the WoL, at least in my case, despised him. Like didn't for a second think about saying he wasn't a friend when Zero asked about him and she stated he saw my WoL as one. But in the end I was fine fighting him, not to prove anything but to prevent his psycho ass from putting others in danger.
This is my vibe with him.
Like okay, Zenos is our dark mirror. He's basically what the WoL could've turned out if they were just a bit more selfish or didn't have the Scions to keep us on the straight and narrow. I do appreciate that observation.
Still an asshole though. You don't get to drag the whole world down to your level because you're obsessed with dying.
The Void quest also show a dynamic if Zenos and WoL were friends and that Zenos actually had an actual friend. It is practically implied that the original Golbez is the WoL's 13th reflection (1st point of view in the echo memories, the silent character, stoic nods, etc.) while Durante is Zenos's 13th Reflection.
Is he really? I feel like the Zeno simps act like he's the only reflection held up, and that Emet-Selch and Venat aren't there as other answers to what an adventurer is.
I was very unhappy with most of Stormblood, and didn't want to play Endwalker because I didn't want AnimeArthas to upstage the wider picture of the universe we got in Shadowbringers.
But they actually did a pretty neat thing with Zenos in that whereas almost every other character in the game is so often your earnest cheerleader, he roots for you because he's demented enough to believe that nobody else but him is allowed to beat you. So he shows up to a typical Final Fantasy cosmic end-battle just to make sure the boss doesn't take his W.
Not only is he goading for an asskicking, but he wants to make sure that the person who kicks his ass is an absolute legend. In some ways he's the most self-aware character in the setting since he seems to be the only one of our rivals who realizes before defeat that he probably has no realistic path to victory, and the catharsis of beating his ass at reality's edge is his gift to you.
I loved Zenos because of how unhinged he was and how he was basically a foil of our character. Our character effectively lives for adventure and gets thrills from it. His character pretty much gets no thrills from doing anything other than living to fight us, given that was what made him feel alive. Someone who was on his level and basically rivaled him in his strength.
I think Gaius actually becomes a good guy in my eyes. He still has aspirations and motivations that aren't amazing, but once you beat the line-up of Castrum trials it really does feel like Gaius has found a new calling in Werlyt.
The entire subplot of Werlyt shows you a whole new side of why Gaius did what he did and what good things he did for his people even while acting detrimental towards Eorzea.
Gaius is a strange case altogether. I think he became good, but I can see how people would be unable to forgive him no matter what he does, because he almost caused a complete wipe-out of humanity with Bahamut.
He was ordered to support Nael in the project, but decided to leak important details to the Eorzean Alliance in the hopes that they would be able to stop it.
Bahamut to be fair was all Nael's shenanigans, he actually warned the Eorzean Alliance of project Meteor because he wanted to conquer the land not destroy it.
Except for the ones that are just fucking dead, ofc, but obviously we can't talk about them so this narrative can be pushed lol
Regardless though, yeah that's kind of the point, hope in a brighter tomorrow is the whole focus of the entire storyline through EW, that's why when enemies actually die it's usually not a celebration but actually framed rather darkly, and these others came around after dealing with the WoL.
But right, too serious, apologies; "pansy ass villains fuck this, they should all be DEAD cause that would be sooooo much more interesting and not entirely one dimensional!"
Emet-Selch: How so? In the end he said he would have taken the same actions as he did to try and save our star, and if you're talking about his actions in Ultima Thule, yes, it's entirely in-character, as he did what was best for Etheirys.
Nero: Nero has *always* been an opportunist. He just now has the biggest opportunity for growth with the Ironworks. He still only begrudgingly gives us help, and it's very clear when a better opportunity arises, he's going to cut and run.
Gaius: You have a solid point here, but it's also missing the context of learning that the Empire was founded on the lies of Emet-Selch and was at the mercy of the Ascians every step of the way. It isn't until Shadowbringers that he starts actually working against the Empire as a whole, as he was still devoted to Varis until he watches him die.
Hydrus: Not a good guy. He works with us against a common enemy, but makes it *very* clear that it's only to clear the way for the Empire.
Fordola: Again, somewhat of a point but missing some very important context, ie growing up under the oppression of the Empire and thinking the only salvation of her people lied in submission. Once she's shown her folly, she starts working on her penance and to be honest it's handled really well.
She wasn't evil. She was defending her people and homeland from theocratic invaders who want to commit genocide of dragons and Dravanians.
The irony is they worship a false god, and knew naught of their history.
Mmm, his choice of words near the end implies he probably still would have made the same choices broadly speaking. He was just miffed at being the butt of an instance of dramatic irony when he first popped in.
What Emet really was was the (anti-)hero of his own story. Working over millennia to orchestrate the revival of his people, at any cost.
Yup. And a tragic backstory doesn't make up for your sins. It just explains why you did your sins. When your answer to getting what you want is (multiple) global genocide(s)...you're just not the good guy. Like, I'm sure Hitler truly thought ht was doing a good thing too. Doesn't mean he's, you know, not friggin Hitler.
Damn it's almost like the villains largely have their own motivations and aren't just unilaterally *evil* for the sake of it.
Also, yeah, generally speaking having your shit rocked by somebody you're diametrically opposed to is cause for at least a little bit of self-reflection. Especially if the alternative is being dead.
Is Gaius really a good guy now? He respects us. He hates ascians because they betrayed him. It really seems more like we just happen to want the same things for a while and he knows we would take him in a fight
We were helping him out in *The Sorrow of Werlyt* with his own interests. He wouldn't just turn us down. That doesn't make him a "good guy"
This is why I like final fantasy xiv tbh. They handle this well instead of all villains just being generic villains who die with their plans we at least get to redeem many and get to understand them and eventually even feel bad for them. To me this is good writing in a nutshell when you can take a villain and make them likeable or missed.
I think she is currently doing a penance that is better for everyone than it she were locked up or had been executed. It's part of a redemption arc, but I don't really think that old acts ever truly get erased. She used to act in a way that she believed would, in the long term, be better for her people, and she had a huge amount of hatred for those who rejected the new order. And now the Garlean rule that she did such horrible acts in the service of is gone, but she still wants Ala Mhigo to prosper. The world has changed around her and she has to live with the legacy of her cruelty and brutality as the captain of the Crania Lupi.
"I was here to kill the planet,
Took my leader's plan for granted,
Now I'm causing no more trouble,
Building Werlyt up from rubble.
But do keep in mind that I'm a source offender."
- Gaius
Thordan, Nidhogg, Zenos, Yotsuyu, Asahi, Amon have entered the chat. Edit: As noted below, Valens too. And Athena. And Scatch/Diabolos. And Ivalice Ultima.
And Ilberd
We really kill way more villains than redeem.
You might say we're a bit.... sloppy.
For ala migo!
I don't know who Al Amigo is but whoever he is I would also die for him.
FERAL AMIGO
I’LL TEAR YE LIMB FROM LIMB
YOU SHALL HAVE IT ALL
No, we're generally pretty thorough about it.
*SLOPPEH!
We only convert the hot ones.
Lies. We killed Niddhog.
"Woe betide the man who stands opposed to the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear. Woe betide the man who stands **with** the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear."
Look, we say join us or die. Not our fault so many pick the wrong choice.
And we put the fear of God to those we didn't, hence the change of heart lol
You guys are forgetting the lvl 2 ladybugs outside Ul'dah!
dont forget about Vauthry! :)
... Can I please forget about Vauthry? I really wanna.
Ah Big Chungus!
I see your selection of villains and raise you Valens
Valens explodes onto the scene.
>Valens explodes Gods, I wish.
I mean, there was implied to be some exploding of a sort slightly off-screen. Just of the 'crushed soda bottle' variety.
That was more of a "pop". I wanted something more. Something that would balance the scales against what he did. Preferably something visible on the other shards.
How about his severed head falling into a pool of suspiciously blood-like liquid?
Valens does not deserve that reference.
You're right, he should've had his head bitten off by the Diamond Weapon instead.
What is that a reference to?
Sorrows of Werlyt heavily references both Neon Genesis Evangelion and Gundam, I would say you’ll get the most out of watching Eva if you haven’t seen either.
Neon Genesis Evangelion. So's the other reference, but the guy whose decapitated head fell into the blood-like liquid didn't deserve to die like that, while the guy who got his head bitten off had it coming. The Weapon raid series is also a bit of an Evangelion reference in itself.
I now cannot unsee Scáthach being nicknamed Scatch. 🤣
>!Nabriales, Lahabrea, Mitron!< Varis, The Griffin, endless villains and antagonists from side content Yotsuyu doesn't really count
I mean we killed Yotsuyu's personality which made her become Tsuyu, and it could be argued that killing a personality is the same as killing the person.
Yeah but, >!then she got it back and became Yotusyu proper again.!<
I would argue two of those first ones explicitly get redemption and the other gets some but proxy. Also yotsuyu 100% counts as a redemption. It's "complicated" but it's also not even remotely subtle.
If it's the two I'm thinking, they aren't redeemed, they just get context of who they used to be. You don't get redeemed for being a murderer just because I find out you used to volunteer at an orphanage. If anything it makes who they become all the more tragic
>!Tbf, we didn’t really get a chance to redeem Lahabrea since Thordan came in and had his sword vore him!<
goddess i hate asahi so much , such a dork
And Regula van Hydrus. And whatever the idiot Garlean's emperor was, Zenos' daddy.
Technically, Zenos did that one. We had no hand in it.
Wasn't Regula killed by Zurvan? Or am I mixing them up with another garlean?
He was yeah, Regula actually teamed up with us but less because he saw us as the 'good guys' and more because he wanted revenge for what happened to his men and we were really the only people that could help.
Honestly, I can imagine if Regula didn't get merc'd by Zurvan, we might have had a chance to come to some sort of accord with him. Despite being a legatus, he seemed to have a reasonable head on his shoulders. I wouldn't have minded him being our rival instead of Zenos, but I get that the story wasn't meant for that.
Athena is about to loose her National Alchemist license and has been thinking about her son and the family dog.
Zenos was never a good guy but he did technically help us at the end.
The hour is at hand! Your enemy's shield is broken! Lahabrea objects to being excluded from the chat!
In bread’s defense we didn’t kill him Thorny boy and his square knights did
We killed him once but it didn't stick. Thorny boy finished the job though.
Zenos? We couldn't have saved the universe without his help. He definitely belongs on the Enemies to Friends list.
Idk we did beat him to death with our bare hands and leave him to die at the edge of the universe.
*At his request...* Also true for Hydaelyn and the Twelve. Assisted suicide was a bit of a theme.
He was motivated by completely selfish reasons. He only helped us to get his fight. He only stopped killing because it wasn't getting our attention anymore.
Correct. He realized we did not share his priorities. So he helped us meet our goals in hopes that we would do the same. He learned to cooperate. Some might even call that the first step to friendship.
This line of thinking is exactly why people like Fordola are still alive 😭😭😭
And a good thing she is as she's has saved many lives since she switched sides. Killing her would give people revenge. But she became who she became to get revenge. So how far back do we go? How many people to we kill before every debt is paid? Or do we give people a chance to do better? Be better? No matter how awful Zenos was, it is also true that the universe couldn't have been saved without his help. 🤷🏾♀️
We also already owed him a big one for killing his dad before Varis could unleash the Black Rose alchemical weapon.
So true. Besides helping save the universe, he also destroyed the Garlean Empire. 😂 I just realized if you look at Zenos' resume, he sparked rebellion, killed numerous Garlean officers, destroyed the Garlean Empire, prevented the 8th rejoining and saved the universe. Rest in Peace, Lord Zenos. You did a ridiculous amount of good for a villain.
Not enemies, not friends, but a secret third thing
Punch buddies
*Vauthry.*
>Woe betide the man who stands opposed to the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear.
Yotsuyu almost became a good guy And then there's her Roegadyn pet
I'm sure they're all enjoying their stay in Oblivion
Dead people can't enter the chat. They are forgotten. It's sad.
I wouldn't call Emet a "good guy", he just isn't vindictive and knows he has lost. He implies at the end of Endwalker that part of the reason that he cancels the resurrection is that he knows that it's inevitable that he will one day attempt to revive his people once again.
Yeah, in End Walker, with his last appearance, he basically says he would've done the same thing with his memories and doesn't regret his actions. The main thing is Emet-Selch's actions are understandable and sympathetic to a degree. He wants to restore his people, and he's basically been walking alone (Lahabrea REALLY went off the deep end long ago, and was basically a husk of his former self, Elidibus has been deteriorating mentally for aeons due to him being the will and heart of Zodiark), even though we all realize how evil he is for treating all the inhabitants of the source and the reflections as nothing more than small collateral for his plans. He basically doesn't recognize the fractured living people as living people. This is a stark contrast from most villains who are almost cartoonishly evil (Zenos, Nidhogg, Thordan, etc... all being closer to Lex Luther in complexity)
It's also interesting to see how Lahabrea went off the deep end in the first place.
And the reason why was because he was the most active of the three of them. Constantly body hopping burned his soul out, unlike Emet who stayed with a single body, rested for long periods of time on repeat until he founded the Garlean empire and got easy clone bodies that wouldn’t degrade his soul with repeated use. Honestly a swap fic with the two of them doing the opposite role, Emet constantly body hopping and Lahabrea not doing it as much, would be pretty interesting.
Ohh I thought it was something more to do with how >!Lahabrea had the corruption in his soul and it slowly corroded him or something, given he rejoined with the half that he cut out of himself due to the merge with his wife.!<
That's probably not helping him out in the long term
That's the thing about Lahabrea, he had so much going against him that it's probably impossible to even tell which soul-crushing problem in his life was the straw that broke the camel's back. With all he had going against him, it's a wonder he didn't skew even further and end up like Fandaniel.
nidhogg? Cartoonishly evil? dafuq
Someone forgot Nidhogg's motivations to call him that.
Sad thing is Zenos had 300% more character growth than Nidhogg and Thordan.
True, but at the end of the day, his whole MO was wanting a thrilling fight with his self proclaimed rival, literally didn't care who he trampled on to experience it. I really don't have much sympathy towards him. It's like those extreme sport athletes who do urban parkour without any safety equipment and die due to an accident. Like I feel bad for their friends and family, but eh...
You *shouldn't* have sympathy for him. He was happy to doom the our world for the salty runback. Being able to understand his motives, how nihilistic he was before he met you then how obsessed he was for following that singular high once again, does not mean he warrants sympathy. Zenos is supposed to act as a sort of mirror for the WoL. The truth is, he's not entirely incorrect with his last monologue with your character, but he doesn't understand motive. He is driven just to pursue that battle high, having become so obsessed with the feeling that it's the first thing that's ever really given him purpose. You, as the IC Warrior of Light, are driven by the people you protect, the people you have come to care for, the bonds you create over the course of your adventure; they are your purpose, even if you answer that you two aren't that different. And that ultimately is the question of good and evil.
I think what's important to distinguish is that not being a good person doesn't mean you're an evil person. Emet-Selch never really did what he did with a conscious, evil mind. If you really internalize what he says to you in Shadowbringers, he is quite literally telling you that everyone you know and love including yourself is less than a life in his eyes - we unconsciously step on ants when we walk around town and we don't mind that burden and guilt either when it happens. Athena consciously committed wrongdoings towards her own friends and colleagues and manipulated everyone around herself for her own benefit, she truly IS evil - but Emet-Selch is a deranged man who lost his mind with his yearning for home and his people and began to see the world in front of himself as a fractured reality, a cruel joke, a nightmare of sorts. For Emet to be evil, he would've had to have an evil motivation of sorts like... I dunno, "I really don't like the Warrior of Light because their face is ugly and they made new friends while MY friends are dead!!", something to that petty extent. Trying to save your own friends after they discarded their lives to make sure you get to keep living in peace and happiness just isn't evil and it doesn't come from a place of genuine evil.
I'd even argue Emet-Selch's position is even more tragic. In his version of Amaurot, everyone views us as children. But when we went back in time to Elpis, our aetheric density is so miniscule, the Amourotine barely see us as an individual entity, we basically are masquerading as a familiar/creation. But this means that by shadowbringers, deep down, he did see the fractured people of the different worlds as children, but his obligations to his people, his friends, and as the convocation of the fourteen, he still feels he had to commit mass genocide to what he considers to be children to accomplish his goals
I always felt that this part of Emet-Selch was greatly written. In Endwalker, we meet a man with a hard shell and a soft inside who acts tough but then does a good thing when he's convinced. In Shadowbringers, we meet a man with a soft shell and a hard inside who acts like a friendly, helpful jester but tries to genocide the whole planet in actuality. Combining those two versions of Emet solidifies what we see in Amaurot - he's dutiful towards his own people and he WANTS the rejoining to happen, but he doesn't hate Eorzea or its people. He simply believes that what has to be done has to be done.
It's important to also note that Emet, upon seeing the dominant shard of Azem for the first time in what is apparently centuries, finally has a glimpse of hope for another path that isn't just genocidal rejoinings one after another. "But with a soul such as that, mayhap there is another way... one that does not require bloodshed..." He spends all of 5.0 trying to make you remember the ancient world and more specifically, remember him and Hythlo, so that he could count you as a genuine ally. It culminates in him recreating the capital city with a shade of Hythlo (with whom he leaves the Azem crystal to give to you once you end his misery) to try and jog your memory, and even that doesn't work. The man is clearly overcome with grief and sorrow and lashes out at the final confrontation. He then finally, relieved of his burden and realizing the WoL is not Azem but is the worthy inheritor of their soul, retreats to the aetherial sea to watch and wait to see if you can succeed where the Ancients could not.
And as I have said a few times before, imagine this scenario: FF14 9.0 sees a new Calamity, one that changes the world forever. Nothing is as we knew it. It kinda looks like it in some spots, but it's all off. It's all kinda wrong. All these people are kinda like what we knew but also not. The expansion is about undoing that Calamity, about bringing back the world we knew, the people we knew, the places we knew. If the quests all point you in that direction would you do it or would you stop playing?
Alot of people people died in those umbral calamities and emet started them
As Solus zos Galvus, he did literal Nazi shit to the people across Ilsabard. He stoked Garlean grievances to rile up their militarism and sent them out across the world. The crimes against humanity he did, just as Solus, are too numerous to mention, and he did not do it just with the stroke of a pen. In his youth, Solos fought and led troops. As Emet-Selch, he spent 12,000 years enacting planetary genocide either directly or indirectly 8 successful times. On the Source alone he helped build the Allagan Empire, an empire so brutal that the Garleans look at it with justifiable disgust. He also says actual Nazi shit to our faces to justify his planetary genocide. I mean that literally, by the way. "I do not see you as people, therefore I am not guilty of murder" is a paraphrase of what the Nazis said about the Jews, gays, trans people, Romani, disabled and other "undesirable" people they subjected to their industrial genocide Hades is evil. He is beyond *any* other Final Fantasy villian. The man in the picture OP posted is a good man, but that's him from the past. Before he compromised his morals, before he lost Azem and Hythlodaeus. 12,000 years of loneliness, isolation and fear transformed him into a monster. It's tragic and sad, and we *should* feel empathy for him, but it doesn't make him any less evil.
Yeah, but we got that Wurther's Original that grandpa hand made, so that makes him even
It's been years so I could be forgetting something, but I don't think Nidhogg belongs on that list. The war started for a good reason. The dragons were betrayed. But he did take his rage out on innocent people. Especially as the war dragged on past human lifetimes. He fought people who weren't alive when he was betrayed. And then he'd so given in to anger that he couldn't be persuaded to look at things any other way and had to be stopped the hard way.
Zenos has a fricking golf bag for his swords before he went off the edgy end and used a scythe.
Estinien should be here too lowkey
Going from ARR as a dragoon to HW had me feeling like, “how many times do I have to teach you this lesson, old man?”
"Oh no, Estinien got possessed by a Dragon's soul!" "Again!? It hasn't even been a month!"
Everyone else shocked at the 3.0 twist ending while dragoons wonder how he held it together so long.
“How many times do you have to physically explode before you learn this lesson, old man?”
In the 6.4-5 stuff, I’m sitting there staring at him like “don’t even think about it!” when >!that dragon’s eye popped up.!<
Nero wasn't really ever a bad guy, he just worked with the bad guys because it was useful. He is an asshole to anyone he works for.
Nero is "evil" is in a way, but rather than outright genocidal evil, he is more of an amoral character, not caring what happens to others so long as he gets what he wants. He plays the typical overly enthusiastic scientist who wants results but is willing to cater whoever funds his experiments. It just so happens that this time he falls under the employment of Cid, who is definitely a heroic and moral scientist/engineer so Nero is "redeemed."
I would argue that Nero isn't redeemed. It's just that his current best option in order to further his individual goals is by being employed by Garlond Ironworks (and remember, he's employed by Jessie, not Cid).
He was *hired* by Jesse but Cid is the owner and so he is still Cid's employee.
Not to mention it fulfills his second goal in life, which is to annoy the ever living shit out of Cid.
Often Nero annoys me and makes me wonder why we put up with him. But I guess he does help offset all the good that surrounds him and can lead to some entertaining interactions sometimes.
he was so- notice me gaius senpai
and his speech gave you a bathroom break.
Bro he straight up bullies and gleefully kills one of his own engineers in early ARR because the guy mumbled something to someone next to him. Nero is a loveably fun asshole but that's not the behavior of a morally ambiguous character. Edit: Nevermind I forgot it was a spy, resume simping for Nero
Wasn’t that a spy though?
Yup
That engineer was a spy.
Didn't he killed a potential future friend of ours so more of our future friends can be dead later?
The best thing Zenos did after we beat his ass multiple times was die for good
I fucking hate Zenos. I do not get why people love him. Fandeniel? He's so broken and lost that he's gone functionally/literally insane. Emet-Selch? Has the pressure of an entire civilization's past and lost future on his shoulder. Hell, even Yatsuyu was acting out of a very real and raw place of resentment and trauma. Zenos? All I got from him is that he wants to almost die again and will drag the entire world with him.
I love how absolutely unhinged Zenos is. I have plenty of nuanced villains already (hi Emet), but sometimes you just want a villain you can beat up because he's just beyond rational morality. He's depressed, feels alive while fighting, ergo he's going to destroy the world just to provoke a fight to feel something again. It's his whole reason for existing now. How the hell do you reason with that? Answer: Kick his ass to the seven hells and back.
> I love how absolutely unhinged Zenos is. I have plenty of nuanced villains already (hi Emet), but sometimes you just want a villain you can beat up because he's just beyond rational morality. I do get that. And I do like Kefka for similar reasons, though nostalgia and being a sprite might help with that. Just there was a fun to him that I just don't get from Zenos. That kind of character rarely does it for me, at least as a primary antagonist.
Zenos is the perfect villainous foil to our player character. Not the RP fanfic some people have in their heads about their Warrior of Light, but the hard canon character that we play. As blank as our WoLs are in order to accommodate said RP fanfics, there are a few things that are hard canon about the person we play. We're strong. We never back down from a challenge. We continually seek new challenges no matter how great. We are a stranger at first to everyone we meet. We value life and protect those around us. No matter how you imagine your WoL, in the story of the game all of those things are true. Zenos is the dark mirror of that character. He's strong. He never backs down from a challenge. He continually seeks new challenges no matter how great. He is a stranger even to people who know him. He doesn't value life beyond its pleasures and cares for nobody. In Stormblood this just means he's a bump in the road on our journey, another challenge to face. But after Stormblood, he evolves into an exquisite counterpoint to Endsinger's nihilistic worldview. He lives for one thing and one thing only, yet that is all he needs to completely dismiss everything Endsinger holds as undeniable truth. That's why we team up with him against her. Even if your WoL hates his guts, he is never going to buckle under the weight of despair. He walks his own path to his own end and never knows a moment of regret. Yes, he's a monster and deserves to die for everything he's done, but part of what he is also resides within us. When all is said and done, that, we cannot deny.
zenos and endsinger are the two main poles of nihilism end singer in passive nihilism (life meningless might as well die) and zenos is active nihilism (life only has as much meaning as you make)
That's incorrect, zenos is a hedonist: he lives for only pleasure. It's just that he only gets pleasure from (you).
No, they are right. Zenos says exactly that to Jullus in Garlemald. While what gives Zenos meaning might be hedonistic, he believes that what gives a person meaning in life is up to them. Hedonism and Nihilism are not mutually exclusive.
HA!!!! ACCEPTANCE, AT LONG LAST!!! The conflagration our clash will scorch even the stars!
Bro became our #1 fan even above G'raha and Alisaie, for him there was NEVER a question of winning or losing with us, we'll win no matter what, that's even why he's surprised we haven't killed the Endsinger yet (and let's be fair, it was the despair moment where you basically thought it was a no match and waiting death) , he's the one saving us by being sassy so we got a motivation boost to kick his ass after this fight
Remember when Omega tried to erase the WoL while in it's simulated reality, and Midgarsormr tanks it instead? Yeah, you actually got saved by Zenos. Zenos forced his way in and broke Endsinger's hold over Ultima Thule, partly because dragons have demonstrated that kind of thing before, but also partly because Ultima Thule is ruled by dynamis. Zenos has to be one of the biggest sources of dynamis on the world. Everything that guy does is that kind of limit-break passion that even makes him a menace even Elidibus is low-key scared of. (And as a precursor, Elidibus barely knew what dynamis even is, so he sees Zenos as a beast that defies all explanation.)
He also face tanks all of Endsingers attack, esp the LB3 tank requirement one and the one straight after. Well he is on that Mothercrystal powered high but still. Dude just wanted to 1v1 you and wanted you to cutscene skip the Endsinger, I respect that.
Finally someone else who gets it. So many people fail to recognize that Zenos is the character meant to be a foil to our canon WoL.
As a Yakuza/LAD fan, I did kind of enjoy the fact that we were the Kiryu to his Goro Majima.
I personally think Zenos is hilarious. I don't wanna fix him I wanna make him worse.
Exactly. I'm glad his story is finished because Zenos could also make _**us**_ worse.
I think people with chronic depression can tell you both they understand him and that they are relieved you don’t. Zenos is living a personal hell as nothing ever stimulates him and this is one of the worst things ever. Imagine living a life where you just want to end it, but also you want for life to prove it is worth living. The constant “drag the world with me” is more of a “please prove me I’m wrong” cry, from a chronically depressed person’s PoV… and the worst part is that he somehow… comes back from places he thought he could not come back. Even at the end, all he can think is: “how disappointing.” Not even what he thought would relieve him was successful. I hope he comes back in the future just not as a fighter, but as someone who’ll stop another apathic person and just convince them that they are not alone in their suffering and that such suffering is as much of a burden as a drive for improving on anything they want. That despite everything, those little exciting fragments of time are pointers that there may be something better, something stimulating, and that as scientists walk into the unknown unsure who’ll get their research (e.g. Lavoisier researching up until he gets executed, not caring about the fact this is pointless for himself), so should they discover as much as they can, to be sure they can say “I didn’t find anything, despite me actually keeping up the search for the whole time” instead of “I interrupted my research”
I feel he’s more of a portrait of addiction. Only chasing a high and will do anything to get another hit.
I like Zenos because his entire character is "fight me" and the voice actor sells it. The fact that he ends up just being a metaphor for the player ultimately just wanting to fight bigger and badder bosses was great and a fun send off to the expansion that closes such a long running story. I like well written characters, they're fantastic and some of the most memorable stories in games. But sometimes I also just want a villain who's just about wanting to fight.
We defeated him in combat once, and he was worried he'd never feel that thrill again SO HE SLIT HIS OWN THROAT Then when he got resurrected he was like "Guess I gotta beat this wol up and chase that high again" That's the coolest shit to me lmfao. Then the dude shows up going "okay, stop stalling and kill this thing so we can have a fight" fully believing we can do it because we beat him once. He takes over our body and talks to the scions, not to harm them but just to let us know that he could if he wanted to. But they're not even worth his time He's unhinged and insane and that's very fun compared to all the 4d chess playing bbegs. There's no talking with him because the only thing he wants it to 1. kill the wol or 2. die while fighting the wol
Personally I hate him. But I love to hate him
His single-mindedness can make him seem like a one-sided character - but in a world of FF14 with such an array of diverse and complicated characters, I appreciate the charm of his singular, obsessive to an absurd degree devotion. The fact that his actions resulted in the ultimate conclusion of Endwalker highlighted and interesting contrast to me with Shadowbringers: You can do all the right things and still lead the world to its doom. You can destroy everything and still lead to its salvation. It shows me the world isn't so simple.
Also Zenos proposes an answer to Hermes's flawed premise. If there is nothing to live for then you forge ahead (HA!) and make your own path. In Zenos's case his entire pursuit is to see elation, a spark of life, in his (what he sees) a world made of cardboard, drab and weak until he met the WoL.
Yeah. The Endsinger, Xande, the whole civilization with Ra La at the end of The Dead Ends -- they got big sad and wanted to die. Zenos sees the problem of "we've done all there is to do" and instead of falling to despair and offing himself, he says "I better look fucking harder" and "I will create the conditions that will lead to something to do". He *refuses* to give up even when everything is tedious nothing, he's just not shouting about how much of a passionate shounen protag he is the entire time. He only gets revved up when there's something to be revved up about.
> instead of falling to despair and offing himself No, he does do that the first time. Literally slits his own throat before he can come down from the battle high.
But he has to work to get that first lol
People love him partly *because* his motivations and morals are so irrational
Zenos doesn't wax poetic about his tragedy like all the other characters do, and we're only given it in passing mentions--no cutscenes to drive the point home or other NPCs to beat us over the head with what we ought to be feeling. He has spent multiple expansions on a level gajillion character fighting the same ladybugs outside of Limsa Lominsa and they all die so quickly he has never been able to see his full rotation. He can't just "leave" or "play a different game" or "go crafting", because it's all just as dull and he's stuck here. Then you show up and you're a fucking proper Extreme Trial for him. Now he can have fun. Here's a previously totally-anhedonic guy who has never known fucking *fun* or a challenge in his life and he finally finds it fighting you. You are the first instant there has been a spark of fucking life and light in his otherwise dull grey existence--not dark, not sad, just *nothing*. And just like you, he only wants to have fun.
zenos is controversial but liked because he's a character with an obsession, in particular one with the main character (you). he lacks fulfillment outside of it, and there's genuine complexity there visible in his last moments during stormblood and his endwalker scenes that shows how simultaneously complex yet hollow his character is. he *knows* he's nothing more than what he is: that's the inherent pull of it, because he is chasing what everyone else has in the only way he knows how, which is through horrifying obsessive violence. he is the prime example that we cannot save everyone, even ideologically, from the evils of the world— including themselves. he's an echo of emet-selch, whose generational grief bore a loveless child who in turn bore an empty grandson that does not understand happiness or love except in the fleeting moments of adrenaline that he can only reach through horrific feats of cruelty. he's a similar character to kirei of fate/stay night infamy ironically, although i don't like kirei all that much. you don't have to like him or anything. this is why some do, is all i'm saying. i find him fascinating and i'm glad he's dead, finally, because it's the perfect conclusion to his character arc.
I hate Zenos, but not nearly as much as Fandanny
I love hating that guy. He's such a pest.
Zenos was groomed to be a tool for his father. By design, he was abused until he became what he is. How do you think *Fandaniel* is more compelling than him when they're both batshit nutjobs who really only differ in how they present that insanity? "Oh but he's so broken and sad, muh insane xD! So deep! So compelling!" I think you're being deliberately obtuse if you can see why Fandaniel is the way he is but won't even bother to *consider* why Zenos is the way *he* is? Like, the justification IS there. It's nobody else's fault if you choose to ignore it because you find him annoying or whatever. You not liking his motivations doesn't mean they don't exist.
Thing is, that Fandaniels story is shown in game, and we even get to meet with his unsundered self and get to know who he was, while for Zenos you have to go to the lodestone side stories in order to learn it.
Not every character needs to be the deepest person ever. It's actually more realistic and adds variety to have some people that are pretty single minded and unredeemable.
My main issue is that he's just boring. Completely dull. No interest in him whatsoever so the final fight felt completely stupid and the "rivalry" felt forced. My wol, like myself just doesn't care about him.
Everyone is all, "That I cannot deny!" As for me I picked option 3 which amounted to, "I am sick of your shit, you're not leaving here alive."
I wanted the option to tell him F off and just walk away and leave him there. Like, dude, you're not worth the effort required to kill you. He was literally that insignificant and uninteresting to me. I have often wondered whether the reactions to Zenos split meaningfully along gender lines. As a woman, I just can't relate to his dick measuring hyper-competitive vibe, and I certainly had no interest in fisticuffs. But since I only have a sample size of one, it's not worth much! (Editted because typing is apparently very hard today.)
Well I can say as a male that nah, I hated this dude. I felt a smidge of sympathy in that he wasn't given much of a chance and that the only person he considered a friend, the WoL, at least in my case, despised him. Like didn't for a second think about saying he wasn't a friend when Zero asked about him and she stated he saw my WoL as one. But in the end I was fine fighting him, not to prove anything but to prevent his psycho ass from putting others in danger.
This is my vibe with him. Like okay, Zenos is our dark mirror. He's basically what the WoL could've turned out if they were just a bit more selfish or didn't have the Scions to keep us on the straight and narrow. I do appreciate that observation. Still an asshole though. You don't get to drag the whole world down to your level because you're obsessed with dying.
The Void quest also show a dynamic if Zenos and WoL were friends and that Zenos actually had an actual friend. It is practically implied that the original Golbez is the WoL's 13th reflection (1st point of view in the echo memories, the silent character, stoic nods, etc.) while Durante is Zenos's 13th Reflection.
Is he really? I feel like the Zeno simps act like he's the only reflection held up, and that Emet-Selch and Venat aren't there as other answers to what an adventurer is.
I was very unhappy with most of Stormblood, and didn't want to play Endwalker because I didn't want AnimeArthas to upstage the wider picture of the universe we got in Shadowbringers. But they actually did a pretty neat thing with Zenos in that whereas almost every other character in the game is so often your earnest cheerleader, he roots for you because he's demented enough to believe that nobody else but him is allowed to beat you. So he shows up to a typical Final Fantasy cosmic end-battle just to make sure the boss doesn't take his W. Not only is he goading for an asskicking, but he wants to make sure that the person who kicks his ass is an absolute legend. In some ways he's the most self-aware character in the setting since he seems to be the only one of our rivals who realizes before defeat that he probably has no realistic path to victory, and the catharsis of beating his ass at reality's edge is his gift to you.
He's also the antithesis to Hermes.
I loved Zenos because of how unhinged he was and how he was basically a foil of our character. Our character effectively lives for adventure and gets thrills from it. His character pretty much gets no thrills from doing anything other than living to fight us, given that was what made him feel alive. Someone who was on his level and basically rivaled him in his strength.
They aren't good guys, they just aren't explicitly bad anymore.
I think Gaius actually becomes a good guy in my eyes. He still has aspirations and motivations that aren't amazing, but once you beat the line-up of Castrum trials it really does feel like Gaius has found a new calling in Werlyt. The entire subplot of Werlyt shows you a whole new side of why Gaius did what he did and what good things he did for his people even while acting detrimental towards Eorzea. Gaius is a strange case altogether. I think he became good, but I can see how people would be unable to forgive him no matter what he does, because he almost caused a complete wipe-out of humanity with Bahamut.
Wait, what? Dalamud/Bahamut wasn't Gaius, that was Nael van Darnus. Gaius outright tells Nael that the Meteor thing was a senseless act of genocide.
He carries part of the responsibility in the end I think.
He was ordered to support Nael in the project, but decided to leak important details to the Eorzean Alliance in the hopes that they would be able to stop it.
That was Nael. Gaius actually subtly helps you in the 1.0 story, since he wants Eorzea to survive for Garlemald to rule.
Bahamut to be fair was all Nael's shenanigans, he actually warned the Eorzean Alliance of project Meteor because he wanted to conquer the land not destroy it.
Those who survive the encounter, anyway.
Yeah, because the ones that didn't do that are dead.
One of the people in that photo IS dead! He didn’t switch sides until he died!
He didn't even switch sides, he literally ended his own life a second time while saying he'd do it again!
Except for the ones that are just fucking dead, ofc, but obviously we can't talk about them so this narrative can be pushed lol Regardless though, yeah that's kind of the point, hope in a brighter tomorrow is the whole focus of the entire storyline through EW, that's why when enemies actually die it's usually not a celebration but actually framed rather darkly, and these others came around after dealing with the WoL. But right, too serious, apologies; "pansy ass villains fuck this, they should all be DEAD cause that would be sooooo much more interesting and not entirely one dimensional!"
Except you, Athena!
Emet-Selch: How so? In the end he said he would have taken the same actions as he did to try and save our star, and if you're talking about his actions in Ultima Thule, yes, it's entirely in-character, as he did what was best for Etheirys. Nero: Nero has *always* been an opportunist. He just now has the biggest opportunity for growth with the Ironworks. He still only begrudgingly gives us help, and it's very clear when a better opportunity arises, he's going to cut and run. Gaius: You have a solid point here, but it's also missing the context of learning that the Empire was founded on the lies of Emet-Selch and was at the mercy of the Ascians every step of the way. It isn't until Shadowbringers that he starts actually working against the Empire as a whole, as he was still devoted to Varis until he watches him die. Hydrus: Not a good guy. He works with us against a common enemy, but makes it *very* clear that it's only to clear the way for the Empire. Fordola: Again, somewhat of a point but missing some very important context, ie growing up under the oppression of the Empire and thinking the only salvation of her people lied in submission. Once she's shown her folly, she starts working on her penance and to be honest it's handled really well.
eh... I'm still dubious about Nero... I feel like there's another shoe that needs to drop...
Yeah, Nero’s not a good guy. He’s just doing whatever he needs to do to get more science
Nah there are way more irredeemable bastards that we just straight murder than we reform
...who are willing to reform themselves. Thus, I am always willing to give everyone a second chance.
I feel like Nero is chaotic neutral. He only helps you because he gets to do weird sciency stuff, and of course clap Cid's cheeks.
Does Y'sayle count?
She wasn't evil. She was defending her people and homeland from theocratic invaders who want to commit genocide of dragons and Dravanians. The irony is they worship a false god, and knew naught of their history.
Shattering the wards on the Steps of Faith and sacrificing the powerless inhabitants of the Brume to the horde is not by any definition “defending”.
Taleji Adeleji, Ilberd, Asahi, and Valens van Varro says hi.
if only we could redeem Scáthach, i have no ulterior motives i swear
You either live long enough to be the good guy or you get cut down like that bitch Teledeji.
Nero is only 'good' because it's easier for him to screw with Cid as a 'good guy'.
We're basically Goku
It has become a cliche
Emet Selch doesn't really count, if anything he was always a good guy with about a day's worth of amnesia.
Mmm, his choice of words near the end implies he probably still would have made the same choices broadly speaking. He was just miffed at being the butt of an instance of dramatic irony when he first popped in. What Emet really was was the (anti-)hero of his own story. Working over millennia to orchestrate the revival of his people, at any cost.
A flawed / sympathetic villain is still a villain!
as i like to say: cool motive, still genocide!
Yup. And a tragic backstory doesn't make up for your sins. It just explains why you did your sins. When your answer to getting what you want is (multiple) global genocide(s)...you're just not the good guy. Like, I'm sure Hitler truly thought ht was doing a good thing too. Doesn't mean he's, you know, not friggin Hitler.
Damn it's almost like the villains largely have their own motivations and aren't just unilaterally *evil* for the sake of it. Also, yeah, generally speaking having your shit rocked by somebody you're diametrically opposed to is cause for at least a little bit of self-reflection. Especially if the alternative is being dead.
Don't forget iceheart.
You could say we beat some sense into them.
You're forgetting the alternative is that we put them sux feet under, so I'd consider it wise when they turn good
Bakool Ja Ja already preparing his apology speech to address the allegations and promise to stop being racist.
Except for the dead ones. Including Emet-Selch because good Emet-Selch is in the past.
"We're friends now." "But I want to kill goku." "Most of my friends did!"
nero isn't even really a villain, he's just an asshole that worked for the enemy lmao he's still an asshole now, too
You die a villain or live long enough to see yourself become a good guy.
Is Gaius really a good guy now? He respects us. He hates ascians because they betrayed him. It really seems more like we just happen to want the same things for a while and he knows we would take him in a fight We were helping him out in *The Sorrow of Werlyt* with his own interests. He wouldn't just turn us down. That doesn't make him a "good guy"
All except the most important one, your best buddy Zenos.
Emet is the hero of his own story. But to us, he is villain.
This is why I like final fantasy xiv tbh. They handle this well instead of all villains just being generic villains who die with their plans we at least get to redeem many and get to understand them and eventually even feel bad for them. To me this is good writing in a nutshell when you can take a villain and make them likeable or missed.
Hot take fordola was never redeemed shes still a raging bitch
I think she is currently doing a penance that is better for everyone than it she were locked up or had been executed. It's part of a redemption arc, but I don't really think that old acts ever truly get erased. She used to act in a way that she believed would, in the long term, be better for her people, and she had a huge amount of hatred for those who rejected the new order. And now the Garlean rule that she did such horrible acts in the service of is gone, but she still wants Ala Mhigo to prosper. The world has changed around her and she has to live with the legacy of her cruelty and brutality as the captain of the Crania Lupi.
They’re not here to cause any trouble They’re legally required to do the Source Offender Shuffle
"I was here to kill the planet, Took my leader's plan for granted, Now I'm causing no more trouble, Building Werlyt up from rubble. But do keep in mind that I'm a source offender." - Gaius