Depends on the engine.
On a lycoming with a starter ring gear and bendix, what you will hear is the nasty grinding sound of money flying out of your pocket. The bendix tries to engage with the starter ring gear. It will grind like crazy, but will eventually retract again (it has locking pawls that release upon reaching a certain speed and allows the pinion to return to disengaged even if you are still applying power). By then if you are unlucky, you now have chipped or missing teeth.
On a continental that uses a starter torque adapter with a clutch, you will probably not hear anything because it won't engage if the engine is spinning. It's designed so the clutch engages when the starter shaft spins faster than the output shaft, in the other direction it freewheels.
Side note: On a rotax, they use sprag clutches and it's impossible to get the starter to engage with the engine while it is running, the sprag can only engage when the starter shaft is rotating faster than the crankshaft.
There are other starter types but I can't comment on them.
>On a continental that uses a starter torque adapter with a clutch, you will probably not hear anything because it won't engage if the engine is spinning. It's designed so the clutch engages when the starter shaft spins faster than the output shaft, in the other direction it freewheels.
Wow. Didnt know that.
So were Lycoming just being cheap?
I prefer lycomings' design. The starter torque adapter on continentals sometimes have issues with the clutch and while it's better with the current iteration, it's still expensive as fuck to service.
With lycoming, the bendix or starter ring gear is dirt cheap by comparison to all three because it's easily accessible. The minor downside is they do accumulate dirt over time and you have to do a flush it with a light oil every decade or so or the bendix drive gear gets stuck, usually in the disengaged position and you can't start.
Rotax's sprag has its advantages but when it gets fucked up it's a massive pain in the ass to replace because it's inside the ignition housing, and you have to pull the back of the engine off to replace it and hope the failure mode isn't the "piano keys of death" where the ring gear has imprints around it. Have to split the entire engine to replace that.
Why not gentley go to the right magneto, off, then back to right, and gentley back to both?
I got shown that once and never understood why we teach to grind the hell out of the cylinder cranking it back and forth hard across the points when we don’t need to
Being gentle with the mag switch has no bearing on anything. Turning the both mags off at Mag Check throttle settings and back on is a sure-fire way to dump a lot of gas in the exhaust stacks and reignite it and can cause damage (and the BOOM).
Grind the hell out of what hard points?
THE CAT IN THE HAT
On Aging
I cannot see,
I cannot pee.
I cannot chew,
I cannot screw,
Oh my god, what can I do?
My memory shrinks,
My hearing stinks
No sense of smell
I look like hell.
My mood is bad - can you tell?
My body's drooping.
Have trouble pooping.
The Golden Years have come at last.
The Golden Years can kiss my ass.
This the second biggest reasons key switches for mags and starters shouldn't be in airplanes.
On off switch for left mag, on off switch for right mag, push button for starter. They're airplanes, not cars, they shouldn't need keys.
Could you elaborate a little more on exactly what you mean? I always know which position the mags are in because unless my hand is on the key it’s always on “both”.
You go one click left to the left mag. Back one click right to both. 2 clicks left to the right mag. 2 clicks right to both. If you go too far right when doing the mag check you'll engage the starter. Go too far left and you shut the mags off.
What u/slpater said.
I have had a student accidentally go all the way to left and shut off the magnetos.
When they heard the engine staring to quit, they quickly returned to both, but there were enough “off” cycles of the engine for a major backfire to occur when they key was switch to on.
I was concerned we might have damaged the exhaust stack. Fortunately all okay.
You will hear a horrible expensive noise.
Any system costs money, adds extra weight, and is one more thing that can break. Every new system needs to be justified. Not a big deal in a car, but not what most people want in an airplane.
During my student days, was getting ready to go out for a solo. I didn’t quite prime enough so when I fed in the mixture and released the starter switch it started to sputter out.
So I instinctively tried to “catch” it and keep it spinning by turning the starter back on. Crunch.
There's nothing smart in the starter to prevent it from engaging, just the shape of the teeth which try to guide everything together. It could get lucky and engage, or hit the ring gear and make a noise, or break a tooth in the starter and/or ring gear, but I haven't done this and don't see many broken planes so maybe it gets worse than this?
I'm not an A&P, though have replaced ring gears and starter motors (experimental). Replacing a starter doesn't take a lot of labour, but some starter motors are not serviceable so will cost >1k just for the replacement. A new (non-OEM) ring gear is cheap, but is more work since the prop needs to come off to do it (I got billed ~4 hours for something with a similar amount of work, replacing the nose seal).
this is why I prefer aircraft with the mags on toggle switches or isolated from the starter.
at the flight school I worked at this would happen all the time and usually there wouldn't be damage, but it would still need to be looked at. we made the student assist the engineer as a consequence.
same with intake fires. you have to clean up your mess exactly one time to learn
My students absolutely love to engage the starter, get the prop spinning, disengage and then reengage the starter while the prop is still moving.
It makes a horrible grinding sound and then I get to get out and show them the damaged flywheel.
Happens to me almost weekly at work (even if I brief it right before we start up 🙄) and haven’t broken a starter or anything yet
I think others have covered it well, just to add something slightly different. Solenoid can get stuck, so the starter keeps on going after the engine starts, even without you holding the key to start position. Turn ignition to off - and it just keeps going!
If you hear that death scream, shut down, and turn master switch to off as well or it'll just keep trying to start.
When I was doing my private training in a c150 with a pull knob to start, I accidentally left it on during our flight because I assumed it was spring-loaded and would stop engaging after I let it go. When we got on the ground and pulled the mixture and realized this, my cfi was just like “was that on the whole time? Just make sure to push it in next time.”
So basically do whatever tf you want in those little Cezznuhs
The starter gear grinds up on the flywheel until the teeth connect properly and spin together.
You don't want to do it, but a few times *shouldn't* be too harmful.
For a lot of GA planes, especially older ones, there is nothing preventing the starter from engaging when the propeller is already turning. So you will grind the flywheel with the starter and it will start to eat away at the gears. Eventually after a few times the starter flywheel gear will be worn and the mechanic at the next inspection will say to replace it.
The “start” position is normally spring loaded and takes more effort to select than the mag positions. So you can count clicks, and also be mindful to be gentle with the key as you’re turning it. As long as you are gentle, you wont overpower the spring that releases the starter.
I once engaged the starter as the prop just stopped (from a failed start attempt) and briefly spun counterclockwise, the opposite way. I engaged the starter and it was such a loud ass grinding noise that within a fraction of a second I stopped and thought about whether I want to even try starting it again.
Depends on the engine. On a lycoming with a starter ring gear and bendix, what you will hear is the nasty grinding sound of money flying out of your pocket. The bendix tries to engage with the starter ring gear. It will grind like crazy, but will eventually retract again (it has locking pawls that release upon reaching a certain speed and allows the pinion to return to disengaged even if you are still applying power). By then if you are unlucky, you now have chipped or missing teeth. On a continental that uses a starter torque adapter with a clutch, you will probably not hear anything because it won't engage if the engine is spinning. It's designed so the clutch engages when the starter shaft spins faster than the output shaft, in the other direction it freewheels. Side note: On a rotax, they use sprag clutches and it's impossible to get the starter to engage with the engine while it is running, the sprag can only engage when the starter shaft is rotating faster than the crankshaft. There are other starter types but I can't comment on them.
> what you will hear is the nasty grinding sound of money flying out of your pocket. Ok, you legit got me laughing there. Bravo.
Grind ‘em ‘til you find ‘em!
Can you not comment on those other types of starters because you don’t know or because the big starter industry has your info?
This guy, he invented a starter that runs on water. Water man! No battery, no hand-crank, nothing but w
Listen, I don't have much time but you can start an aircraft engine using air....
The manual starter (hand propping) is really tough to engage inadvertently while running, but if you do you'll hear ambulance noises.
I've been blinking and no one has sent help!!! Granted I don't know morse so I could be saying "I love big starter" this whole time...
>On a continental that uses a starter torque adapter with a clutch, you will probably not hear anything because it won't engage if the engine is spinning. It's designed so the clutch engages when the starter shaft spins faster than the output shaft, in the other direction it freewheels. Wow. Didnt know that. So were Lycoming just being cheap?
I prefer lycomings' design. The starter torque adapter on continentals sometimes have issues with the clutch and while it's better with the current iteration, it's still expensive as fuck to service. With lycoming, the bendix or starter ring gear is dirt cheap by comparison to all three because it's easily accessible. The minor downside is they do accumulate dirt over time and you have to do a flush it with a light oil every decade or so or the bendix drive gear gets stuck, usually in the disengaged position and you can't start. Rotax's sprag has its advantages but when it gets fucked up it's a massive pain in the ass to replace because it's inside the ignition housing, and you have to pull the back of the engine off to replace it and hope the failure mode isn't the "piano keys of death" where the ring gear has imprints around it. Have to split the entire engine to replace that.
It’s why I teach counting the clicks as you manipulate the ignition switch.
Also avoids the CLICK-CLICK-CLICK-BANG mag check.
Not to be confused with "CLICK-CLICK-BOOM" by Saliva. Don't know why my mind went there lol
Which is not to be confused with “TICK TICK BOOM” by the incredible Lin-Manuel Miranda.
Which is not to be confused with "Tick Tick Boom" by The Hives
Hey don’t do Jonathan Larson dirty like that
Fair enough!
Mine too, you’re not alone
Why not gentley go to the right magneto, off, then back to right, and gentley back to both? I got shown that once and never understood why we teach to grind the hell out of the cylinder cranking it back and forth hard across the points when we don’t need to
Being gentle with the mag switch has no bearing on anything. Turning the both mags off at Mag Check throttle settings and back on is a sure-fire way to dump a lot of gas in the exhaust stacks and reignite it and can cause damage (and the BOOM). Grind the hell out of what hard points?
Points=points of contact or electrical connections. Hard across=roughly or with undue wear on equipment Not “hard points” :)
That one is a favorite of my students!
1 click, 2 click, red click, bl- fuck!
THE CAT IN THE HAT On Aging I cannot see, I cannot pee. I cannot chew, I cannot screw, Oh my god, what can I do? My memory shrinks, My hearing stinks No sense of smell I look like hell. My mood is bad - can you tell? My body's drooping. Have trouble pooping. The Golden Years have come at last. The Golden Years can kiss my ass.
Good idea. I'm talking out loud to myself during the checklist so I always know on which mag I am but still I have to think about it.
This the second biggest reasons key switches for mags and starters shouldn't be in airplanes. On off switch for left mag, on off switch for right mag, push button for starter. They're airplanes, not cars, they shouldn't need keys.
Many twin engine pistons have the arrangement you described
Could you elaborate a little more on exactly what you mean? I always know which position the mags are in because unless my hand is on the key it’s always on “both”.
You go one click left to the left mag. Back one click right to both. 2 clicks left to the right mag. 2 clicks right to both. If you go too far right when doing the mag check you'll engage the starter. Go too far left and you shut the mags off.
What u/slpater said. I have had a student accidentally go all the way to left and shut off the magnetos. When they heard the engine staring to quit, they quickly returned to both, but there were enough “off” cycles of the engine for a major backfire to occur when they key was switch to on. I was concerned we might have damaged the exhaust stack. Fortunately all okay.
This confused me until I realized it's because I have a start button and a mag switch. Btw you ever get out to Sherman?
I have been known to make an appearance
Damn piper I fly has a button. I keep forgetting to switch to BOTH after starting because I learned on a key start 172.
I'm assuming the same way you might in a car with an automatic transmission from park: 1 Reverse, 2 Neutral, 3 Drive?
“One, back to both. One two, back to both.”
It makes a loud grinding noise and everyone on the ramp looks at you and it's really embarrassing
“Ask me how I know”
You will hear a horrible expensive noise. Any system costs money, adds extra weight, and is one more thing that can break. Every new system needs to be justified. Not a big deal in a car, but not what most people want in an airplane.
Thanks!
You’ll likely get an awful grinding noise and possibly frag the starter.
Kkghhgeekkkiiii (I imagine that’s what the sound spelled out looks like)
You hear a very nasty grinding noise when the starter tries to engage with the spinning ring gear. Ask me how I know. Lol
How do you know?
During my student days, was getting ready to go out for a solo. I didn’t quite prime enough so when I fed in the mixture and released the starter switch it started to sputter out. So I instinctively tried to “catch” it and keep it spinning by turning the starter back on. Crunch.
There's nothing smart in the starter to prevent it from engaging, just the shape of the teeth which try to guide everything together. It could get lucky and engage, or hit the ring gear and make a noise, or break a tooth in the starter and/or ring gear, but I haven't done this and don't see many broken planes so maybe it gets worse than this? I'm not an A&P, though have replaced ring gears and starter motors (experimental). Replacing a starter doesn't take a lot of labour, but some starter motors are not serviceable so will cost >1k just for the replacement. A new (non-OEM) ring gear is cheap, but is more work since the prop needs to come off to do it (I got billed ~4 hours for something with a similar amount of work, replacing the nose seal).
this is why I prefer aircraft with the mags on toggle switches or isolated from the starter. at the flight school I worked at this would happen all the time and usually there wouldn't be damage, but it would still need to be looked at. we made the student assist the engineer as a consequence. same with intake fires. you have to clean up your mess exactly one time to learn
My students absolutely love to engage the starter, get the prop spinning, disengage and then reengage the starter while the prop is still moving. It makes a horrible grinding sound and then I get to get out and show them the damaged flywheel. Happens to me almost weekly at work (even if I brief it right before we start up 🙄) and haven’t broken a starter or anything yet
New fear unlocked
Yep. While Mag check, never letting go… I don't think I do but I've never thought about this before, just "left, both, right, both". Far out.
Great. New fear unlocked. Thanks a lot.
You're welcome!
What happens if you accidentally stick a screw driver in your bike chain?
Don't give me ideas!
I think others have covered it well, just to add something slightly different. Solenoid can get stuck, so the starter keeps on going after the engine starts, even without you holding the key to start position. Turn ignition to off - and it just keeps going! If you hear that death scream, shut down, and turn master switch to off as well or it'll just keep trying to start.
When I was doing my private training in a c150 with a pull knob to start, I accidentally left it on during our flight because I assumed it was spring-loaded and would stop engaging after I let it go. When we got on the ground and pulled the mixture and realized this, my cfi was just like “was that on the whole time? Just make sure to push it in next time.” So basically do whatever tf you want in those little Cezznuhs
I always call out the position when I do mag checks, but then I verbalize everything when I fly lols.
Same as a car you get that nasty grinding noise
Why are you still using that crappy switch.
The starter gear grinds up on the flywheel until the teeth connect properly and spin together. You don't want to do it, but a few times *shouldn't* be too harmful.
For a lot of GA planes, especially older ones, there is nothing preventing the starter from engaging when the propeller is already turning. So you will grind the flywheel with the starter and it will start to eat away at the gears. Eventually after a few times the starter flywheel gear will be worn and the mechanic at the next inspection will say to replace it. The “start” position is normally spring loaded and takes more effort to select than the mag positions. So you can count clicks, and also be mindful to be gentle with the key as you’re turning it. As long as you are gentle, you wont overpower the spring that releases the starter.
I once engaged the starter as the prop just stopped (from a failed start attempt) and briefly spun counterclockwise, the opposite way. I engaged the starter and it was such a loud ass grinding noise that within a fraction of a second I stopped and thought about whether I want to even try starting it again.
Its no different than your car.
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TLDR: AI won’t be putting comedians out of work any time soon.
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Bad bot
nothing good.
You die.
Maybe you crash?