You or your wife need to consent. I would tell your GP and get it on his medical records that he is not to be circumcised without your consent.
I would also tell your parents that if they, or anyone else consents on your behalf then you'll go to the police. Tell anyone else who is likely to do this. If you need evidence send them letters saying this and have them delivered by recorded delivery. Keep records of everything.
He's your son and it's your decision and tell them you consider the matter closed.
Thanks for your response ofcourse but its easier said then done in our culture. i will fight this fight even if it means my parents disowing me or kicking me out of the house.
The thing is it’s your decision to be part of a culture or not. You’re choosing not to and if others decide to not talk to you then that’s fine. Personally I’d disown them before any of that happened if they push for it. This is a hill I’ll absolutely die on and give anything up for the safety of my son.
your right when i look at my son i know i can go to hell and back for him they will have to cut my head before cutting him but this would mean me having to stand by him as 24/7 security
How onboard your wife? Would she stop them if she was watching him? Idk the whole situation but in my situation if I lived in uk where kids don’t really get cut there except for Jewish and Muslim families, I’d cut ties with my family if I had to worry about them taking my kid and altering their body.
In addition to keeping records of this, do not leave him alone with family ever. You or mom need to be with him when family is around him. There are a lot of psychopaths that wouldn't give a fuck about betraying you to perform ritual genital mutilation. There are people that see that 'obligation' as more important than maintaining family ties.
This is a little bit over the top. Nobody may consent on anybody else's behalf unless there is some kind of power of attorney in place. No, you don't need to start sending letters. That's kind of ridiculous.
There have been times where extended family members, like grandparents, of religious types have taken boys to be circumcised against the wishes of parents.
If there are consequences to doing that then they may think twice.
Good Afternoon! Congratulations on the birth of your son and may Allah bless him and protect him. Being Muslim myself, I completely understand the position you are in, and I absolutely hate that this barbaric and close minded mutilation was done to me. I have been restoring for several years now and it is like night and day the improvement that I have had in the functioning of my penis. This should never be done to anyone, period, and I am proud of you for ending the cycle of violence against men because of the religion.
I agree with the other users in that you need to set hard boundaries with your parents. You need to put it in writing that he will not be circumcised, that you do not approve it, that you do not give them consent to do it, and that you will press criminal charges against them if they attempt to take him to get it done behind your back, and I would even get them to sign the statement. I would make copies of this letter and attach it to a separate letter that you send to all the facilities that are performing circumcisions in your area, informing them that you do not give them parental consent to do this, and that if anyone brings him in to attempt to get this done, they are to say no and if they do proceed forward, you will press criminal charges and file a civil lawsuit against them. And it also need to be recorded with your child's GP/pediatrician like other people have said.
I know it sounds extreme, but I have read so many cases of Muslim grandparents secretly taking the baby to get mutilated when they parents are away and the baby is left in there care. You parents need to understand that it's not worth losing the entire family over, bc they will be dealing with legal charges and will never get to see you or their grandchild again.
And you are of course free to message me and have a private conversation as well about it.
Thanks for your response we need prevention not threats if we do take legal action after this barbaric practise is done then it cannot bring the foreskin back. i need some type of lawyer that can help me sign a legal doccument that would put any doctors or any people who try to do this in jail.
The problem with outlawing it would be they would mean most boys would be taken to their native lands like pakistan or india or an arab country where the local village barber would perform the circumcision using a straight edge razor causing more bothched circumcisions. My dad told me thats how its beem done there for centuries
Very interesting point. I guess the most important thing is to share this truth of what circumcision really is and its horrible disadvantages. The more people will know, the less it’ll be performed worldwide.
Yes ive heard a story where a boy was taken to the barber only to him have not done the circumcision "properly" and they took him again to snip of more skin i felt that pain. and what that boy will go through in the future who knows.
They've made it illegal to cross borders as well for FGM in the US at least, not sure about other nations laws, the same can be done for MGM, make the penalties severe enough and we'll come close to eradicating it, you can never stop anything 100% of course but it needs to be done
Yeah like anything else it's never going to be 100% eliminated, there's always those that know better than everyone else, as well as those that simply don't care about the law
You are the man! First to stop, I was too. The Qur'an does not command circumcision, it's a hadith. I am posting a link to a very well written paper on this from a devout Muslim's point of view, it is lengthy and thorough, but will, I hope give you what you need for an intellectual and Muslim perspective.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10943-022-01635-0
It also contradicts the quran, surah alteen verse 4 clearly states that Allah has created humans in the best shape possible, cutting baby penises implies that Allah has created a defect and needed us to fix it.
We still end up at the same spot, why would Allah create it if we're not supposed to have it? At least it could've been like the umbilical cord where it only serves one purpose which happens before birth and if left attached after birth it dries out and falls off on its own within 3 weeks or so.
Furthermore, The Benefits outweigh the risks, also when u pee traces are left regardless and so even a miniscule drop can invalidate ur prayer. for this reason it is best to be removed.
Long Answer: Circumcision refers to the removal of the foreskin which is located on the head of men’s reproductive organ that stretches to its tip. Because of its many benefits, it has been made obligatory in some religions like Islam.\[1\] It is also practiced by many Westerners, and one can find the reason for such in its great benefits. A small search on the internet and in medical websites is enough to find out why Islam has made such an act wajib. Such websites state that:
The most significant benefit of circumcision is prevention of urinary tract infection (UTI) and its bad outcomes; outcomes that may result in the damage of the kidneys and maybe even their failure. Studies have shown that 75 percent of infants under 3 months of age who suffered from UTI were boys, and that 95 percent of these boys weren’t circumcised. This means that if a boy isn't circumcised when born, the chances of him getting UTI in the first year of his life increase by ten times. Dr. Simfurush, a surgeon at Shahid Beheshti Medical University says: “The best thing that can be done for an infant suffering from UTI is to circumcise him.” Circumcision in adulthood also bears many benefits, namely that it protects him from aids. The significance of this benefit is so high that it has resulted in circumcision being considered one of the ways of aids prevention in African countries. This is because it has been proven that if ten circumcisions are done in a society, one person will be saved and protected from aids.
Prevention of aids isn't the only benefit though, since the area where the foreskin is located is a good place for the growth of different bacteria and viruses, circumcision makes for a good means of prevention of sexually transmitted diseases.
Another benefit is prevention from cancer. Proof for this claim is the fact that in India, where circumcision is uncommon, the rate of penile cancer is 10 times of what it is in countries in which it is a common practice, such as Denmark.
As for the reason why this body part was created in the first place, one must say: “There are definitely benefits for it for the baby before birth and even if we assume that nothing has been discovered till today, we can be sure that as science develops, the reason for it will be discovered.
It has been said that one thing it does is protect that part of the fetus’s body before birth, although it becomes useless after birth, as is the case with the umbilical cord after birth which is cut off.\[2\]
Yes i agree with this why would we be cutting off something thats not compulsory to cut. Its so ingrained in culture that re educating everyone would be impossible but they ended chineese foot biniding in 1 generation so whos to say
There are arguments in the paper that explain how you can be a devout Muslim and not be circumcised. Your family is worried about your eternity and that of your child. This can explain how you can assure blessings and not circumcise.
One sin does not justify another of lesser consequence. But regardless as the paper points out, it is not a sin. Approach this from your father's perspective. Two opposing opinions have to be bent by logic and the words of Scholars of the hadiths until they become parallel.
Thats easier said then done as in our asian culture something thats so deeply ingrained is hard to convince them of anything else as i mentioned its probally a 1000 year+ chain since our aincent hindu ancestors adopeted islam..
First off, big respects for ending this lunacy, and after 1,000 years I think it’s officially time to stop(if a generation is 25 years, this comes out to 40 generations of MGM). In terms of the law, you ARE the law. That is your son. It’s excellent your wife agrees with you, so there’s no legal way for it to happen without your guys consent (depends on which country you live in whether one or both parents need to consent, but again, not relevant since you both agree). Your parents and church have zero legal authority.
Just be honest with your parents; tell them he will not be circumcised.
If they ask why, simply state human rights come before religious rights, and one’s autonomy over their body should always take precedent over anything else. It can be difficult to share one’s own struggles, but sharing your own story certainly wouldn’t hurt your argument.
Maybe other Muslims can speak on this (I am not), but to be honest, religious circ is no different than societal (American) circ in that they’re both inherently stupid and egregious.
Hi thanks foe the response i have tried to share my story in the past with their only response being every one wouldnt be suffering from this lack of sensation could be me due to the medications im taking but i have checked with my doctor is not the case
Just be careful with family members who have no respect for foreskins. They may forcibly retract the skin and then your kid might be so injured the doctors will prescribe circumcision. I've read too many horror stories of babysitters thinking they're just doing the right thing cleaning it...
I second this, as a Muslim father I’d probably watch him like a Hawk and not let anybody change him. It’s going to be on you to tell aunties and what not that it’s not appropriate to retract!
It is illegal in the UK for a boy to be circumcised without BOTH parents consent.
Doctors in UK are members of The British Medical Association and their guidelines state that BOTH parents must sign the consent otherwise the procedure cannot be done without a court order.
Simply don't consent that's it.
There is a wonderful organisation for information for your family 15square.org.uk
Ultimately it is your choice as the parents and they do have to respect that. I would explain how you feel about it, not wanting to take an unnecessary risk of the baby’s health (no operation is 💯 safe 💯 of the time), and that when he is older it is his choice to have it done.
Congratz on your baby!
Congratulations on having a son, and on deciding to keep him intact! And welcome to our community as well.
You're in a tough situation, no doubt about it, and it's good that you recognize that.
It's also good that you recognize that the rest of your extended family is going to be dealing with the weight of 1,000 years of religious and cultural tradition and imperative. Yes, you've been able to fight your way out of that box, but they haven't, and unless you can negotiate some agreement with ALL of them, you're probably going to have to break completely with them, get out of your parents' house and make a life of your own.
That may sound drastic, but if only one member of your extended family regards you as an apostate for your action, they likely won't stop scheming to 'fix' things and trying to get others - not necessarily in your family - to assist them. That person won't confront you, and you probably won't know who they are, but you'll have to always worry that they are out there plotting.
I also don't think you'll get far with trying to convert them using the 'evils of circumcision' argument. Don't get me wrong, I am as anti-circumcision as anyone here, but while you might convince some of your extended family, others won't be able to overcome those 1,000 years of tradition and imperative.
Your best bet, IMHO, is to try to get them to accept that you want your son to make up his own mind when he reaches the age of consent - 18 here in the USA, not sure in the UK. Yes, that's not 'solving' the problem, but it's in effect an 'armed truce', and it buys you a LOT of time. If you can at least get your father to agree to that, it will be a big help in dealing with the rest of your family.
All those letters and notices and warnings are necessary and you should definitely do all of that, but you also have to be a realist: none of that will stop someone who honestly considers you an apostate. That person will not be deterred by warnings of legal consequences.
I'm sorry to be so negative, but unless you deal with this difficult situation by regarding everyone as a potential enemy, your chances of getting your son through this into adulthood intact are pretty slim. That sucks, but it's the way it is.
Cheers.
Thanks for your response. That was my plan soon i plan to move out of the uk also and away from everyone so i was gonna tell them he will do at age 18 if i can convince my own parents we can lie to the rest of the people its been done. The long term is obvuously moving out but in the uk alot of people are moving back in with their parents because times are a bit tough right now.
Circumcision in Islam isn't in the Quran. It's an interpretation and cultural practice only.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't "interpretations" of the Quran forbidden? My understanding is that it's an absolute document.
It's none of your family's business. Their problem, not yours. No medical practicioner may perform surgery on a minor with permission from, say, a grandparent, aunt, etc. That pretty much puts an end to all of this now doesn't it?
You must guard your son's genital integrity at every moment, and do NOT allow your relatives to care for him. He requires your protection to avoid disfigurement. Make sure he is NOT sexually damaged the way that you were damaged.
Do not leave your child with any relatives without supervision... sorry but they could always go a non-medical route. Means no dinners alone... no date night alone. So be it. We did the same for different reasons... you can do it.
You or your wife need to consent. I would tell your GP and get it on his medical records that he is not to be circumcised without your consent. I would also tell your parents that if they, or anyone else consents on your behalf then you'll go to the police. Tell anyone else who is likely to do this. If you need evidence send them letters saying this and have them delivered by recorded delivery. Keep records of everything. He's your son and it's your decision and tell them you consider the matter closed.
Thanks for your response ofcourse but its easier said then done in our culture. i will fight this fight even if it means my parents disowing me or kicking me out of the house.
The thing is it’s your decision to be part of a culture or not. You’re choosing not to and if others decide to not talk to you then that’s fine. Personally I’d disown them before any of that happened if they push for it. This is a hill I’ll absolutely die on and give anything up for the safety of my son.
your right when i look at my son i know i can go to hell and back for him they will have to cut my head before cutting him but this would mean me having to stand by him as 24/7 security
How onboard your wife? Would she stop them if she was watching him? Idk the whole situation but in my situation if I lived in uk where kids don’t really get cut there except for Jewish and Muslim families, I’d cut ties with my family if I had to worry about them taking my kid and altering their body.
In addition to keeping records of this, do not leave him alone with family ever. You or mom need to be with him when family is around him. There are a lot of psychopaths that wouldn't give a fuck about betraying you to perform ritual genital mutilation. There are people that see that 'obligation' as more important than maintaining family ties.
This is a little bit over the top. Nobody may consent on anybody else's behalf unless there is some kind of power of attorney in place. No, you don't need to start sending letters. That's kind of ridiculous.
There have been times where extended family members, like grandparents, of religious types have taken boys to be circumcised against the wishes of parents. If there are consequences to doing that then they may think twice.
He can always get circumcised when he's an adult and can give consent. edit: Congrats!
When hes an adult its a choice i dont want force him into anything.
Good Afternoon! Congratulations on the birth of your son and may Allah bless him and protect him. Being Muslim myself, I completely understand the position you are in, and I absolutely hate that this barbaric and close minded mutilation was done to me. I have been restoring for several years now and it is like night and day the improvement that I have had in the functioning of my penis. This should never be done to anyone, period, and I am proud of you for ending the cycle of violence against men because of the religion. I agree with the other users in that you need to set hard boundaries with your parents. You need to put it in writing that he will not be circumcised, that you do not approve it, that you do not give them consent to do it, and that you will press criminal charges against them if they attempt to take him to get it done behind your back, and I would even get them to sign the statement. I would make copies of this letter and attach it to a separate letter that you send to all the facilities that are performing circumcisions in your area, informing them that you do not give them parental consent to do this, and that if anyone brings him in to attempt to get this done, they are to say no and if they do proceed forward, you will press criminal charges and file a civil lawsuit against them. And it also need to be recorded with your child's GP/pediatrician like other people have said. I know it sounds extreme, but I have read so many cases of Muslim grandparents secretly taking the baby to get mutilated when they parents are away and the baby is left in there care. You parents need to understand that it's not worth losing the entire family over, bc they will be dealing with legal charges and will never get to see you or their grandchild again. And you are of course free to message me and have a private conversation as well about it.
Thanks for your response we need prevention not threats if we do take legal action after this barbaric practise is done then it cannot bring the foreskin back. i need some type of lawyer that can help me sign a legal doccument that would put any doctors or any people who try to do this in jail.
👍🏽
[удалено]
The problem with outlawing it would be they would mean most boys would be taken to their native lands like pakistan or india or an arab country where the local village barber would perform the circumcision using a straight edge razor causing more bothched circumcisions. My dad told me thats how its beem done there for centuries
Very interesting point. I guess the most important thing is to share this truth of what circumcision really is and its horrible disadvantages. The more people will know, the less it’ll be performed worldwide.
Yes ive heard a story where a boy was taken to the barber only to him have not done the circumcision "properly" and they took him again to snip of more skin i felt that pain. and what that boy will go through in the future who knows.
They've made it illegal to cross borders as well for FGM in the US at least, not sure about other nations laws, the same can be done for MGM, make the penalties severe enough and we'll come close to eradicating it, you can never stop anything 100% of course but it needs to be done
I think still people will do it underground in the uk aswell or worse people may try to do it themselves. The hatred of foreskin is huge.
Yeah like anything else it's never going to be 100% eliminated, there's always those that know better than everyone else, as well as those that simply don't care about the law
You are the man! First to stop, I was too. The Qur'an does not command circumcision, it's a hadith. I am posting a link to a very well written paper on this from a devout Muslim's point of view, it is lengthy and thorough, but will, I hope give you what you need for an intellectual and Muslim perspective. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10943-022-01635-0
It also contradicts the quran, surah alteen verse 4 clearly states that Allah has created humans in the best shape possible, cutting baby penises implies that Allah has created a defect and needed us to fix it.
i agree with you 100%
misunderstood. the idea is that the circumcison is from the fitrah and it is sunnah
We still end up at the same spot, why would Allah create it if we're not supposed to have it? At least it could've been like the umbilical cord where it only serves one purpose which happens before birth and if left attached after birth it dries out and falls off on its own within 3 weeks or so.
It is a test
Furthermore, The Benefits outweigh the risks, also when u pee traces are left regardless and so even a miniscule drop can invalidate ur prayer. for this reason it is best to be removed. Long Answer: Circumcision refers to the removal of the foreskin which is located on the head of men’s reproductive organ that stretches to its tip. Because of its many benefits, it has been made obligatory in some religions like Islam.\[1\] It is also practiced by many Westerners, and one can find the reason for such in its great benefits. A small search on the internet and in medical websites is enough to find out why Islam has made such an act wajib. Such websites state that: The most significant benefit of circumcision is prevention of urinary tract infection (UTI) and its bad outcomes; outcomes that may result in the damage of the kidneys and maybe even their failure. Studies have shown that 75 percent of infants under 3 months of age who suffered from UTI were boys, and that 95 percent of these boys weren’t circumcised. This means that if a boy isn't circumcised when born, the chances of him getting UTI in the first year of his life increase by ten times. Dr. Simfurush, a surgeon at Shahid Beheshti Medical University says: “The best thing that can be done for an infant suffering from UTI is to circumcise him.” Circumcision in adulthood also bears many benefits, namely that it protects him from aids. The significance of this benefit is so high that it has resulted in circumcision being considered one of the ways of aids prevention in African countries. This is because it has been proven that if ten circumcisions are done in a society, one person will be saved and protected from aids. Prevention of aids isn't the only benefit though, since the area where the foreskin is located is a good place for the growth of different bacteria and viruses, circumcision makes for a good means of prevention of sexually transmitted diseases. Another benefit is prevention from cancer. Proof for this claim is the fact that in India, where circumcision is uncommon, the rate of penile cancer is 10 times of what it is in countries in which it is a common practice, such as Denmark. As for the reason why this body part was created in the first place, one must say: “There are definitely benefits for it for the baby before birth and even if we assume that nothing has been discovered till today, we can be sure that as science develops, the reason for it will be discovered. It has been said that one thing it does is protect that part of the fetus’s body before birth, although it becomes useless after birth, as is the case with the umbilical cord after birth which is cut off.\[2\]
Yes i agree with this why would we be cutting off something thats not compulsory to cut. Its so ingrained in culture that re educating everyone would be impossible but they ended chineese foot biniding in 1 generation so whos to say
There are arguments in the paper that explain how you can be a devout Muslim and not be circumcised. Your family is worried about your eternity and that of your child. This can explain how you can assure blessings and not circumcise.
Even if it was a sin (not circumcising) we commit bigger ones then this through our life anyway
One sin does not justify another of lesser consequence. But regardless as the paper points out, it is not a sin. Approach this from your father's perspective. Two opposing opinions have to be bent by logic and the words of Scholars of the hadiths until they become parallel.
Thats easier said then done as in our asian culture something thats so deeply ingrained is hard to convince them of anything else as i mentioned its probally a 1000 year+ chain since our aincent hindu ancestors adopeted islam..
Read the entire document.
First off, big respects for ending this lunacy, and after 1,000 years I think it’s officially time to stop(if a generation is 25 years, this comes out to 40 generations of MGM). In terms of the law, you ARE the law. That is your son. It’s excellent your wife agrees with you, so there’s no legal way for it to happen without your guys consent (depends on which country you live in whether one or both parents need to consent, but again, not relevant since you both agree). Your parents and church have zero legal authority. Just be honest with your parents; tell them he will not be circumcised. If they ask why, simply state human rights come before religious rights, and one’s autonomy over their body should always take precedent over anything else. It can be difficult to share one’s own struggles, but sharing your own story certainly wouldn’t hurt your argument. Maybe other Muslims can speak on this (I am not), but to be honest, religious circ is no different than societal (American) circ in that they’re both inherently stupid and egregious.
Hi thanks foe the response i have tried to share my story in the past with their only response being every one wouldnt be suffering from this lack of sensation could be me due to the medications im taking but i have checked with my doctor is not the case
Just be careful with family members who have no respect for foreskins. They may forcibly retract the skin and then your kid might be so injured the doctors will prescribe circumcision. I've read too many horror stories of babysitters thinking they're just doing the right thing cleaning it...
I second this, as a Muslim father I’d probably watch him like a Hawk and not let anybody change him. It’s going to be on you to tell aunties and what not that it’s not appropriate to retract!
No body is changing him apart from my wife but its not like i can be watching him 24/7 and not go to work.
It is illegal in the UK for a boy to be circumcised without BOTH parents consent. Doctors in UK are members of The British Medical Association and their guidelines state that BOTH parents must sign the consent otherwise the procedure cannot be done without a court order. Simply don't consent that's it. There is a wonderful organisation for information for your family 15square.org.uk
Ultimately it is your choice as the parents and they do have to respect that. I would explain how you feel about it, not wanting to take an unnecessary risk of the baby’s health (no operation is 💯 safe 💯 of the time), and that when he is older it is his choice to have it done. Congratz on your baby!
Thanks for your response. I will fight this fight to the fullest.
You are also in the UK. You can also tell your parents your want him to decide so he can better fit in with UK culture and match his peers.
Congratulations on having a son, and on deciding to keep him intact! And welcome to our community as well. You're in a tough situation, no doubt about it, and it's good that you recognize that. It's also good that you recognize that the rest of your extended family is going to be dealing with the weight of 1,000 years of religious and cultural tradition and imperative. Yes, you've been able to fight your way out of that box, but they haven't, and unless you can negotiate some agreement with ALL of them, you're probably going to have to break completely with them, get out of your parents' house and make a life of your own. That may sound drastic, but if only one member of your extended family regards you as an apostate for your action, they likely won't stop scheming to 'fix' things and trying to get others - not necessarily in your family - to assist them. That person won't confront you, and you probably won't know who they are, but you'll have to always worry that they are out there plotting. I also don't think you'll get far with trying to convert them using the 'evils of circumcision' argument. Don't get me wrong, I am as anti-circumcision as anyone here, but while you might convince some of your extended family, others won't be able to overcome those 1,000 years of tradition and imperative. Your best bet, IMHO, is to try to get them to accept that you want your son to make up his own mind when he reaches the age of consent - 18 here in the USA, not sure in the UK. Yes, that's not 'solving' the problem, but it's in effect an 'armed truce', and it buys you a LOT of time. If you can at least get your father to agree to that, it will be a big help in dealing with the rest of your family. All those letters and notices and warnings are necessary and you should definitely do all of that, but you also have to be a realist: none of that will stop someone who honestly considers you an apostate. That person will not be deterred by warnings of legal consequences. I'm sorry to be so negative, but unless you deal with this difficult situation by regarding everyone as a potential enemy, your chances of getting your son through this into adulthood intact are pretty slim. That sucks, but it's the way it is. Cheers.
Thanks for your response. That was my plan soon i plan to move out of the uk also and away from everyone so i was gonna tell them he will do at age 18 if i can convince my own parents we can lie to the rest of the people its been done. The long term is obvuously moving out but in the uk alot of people are moving back in with their parents because times are a bit tough right now.
Lie to the grandparents and never let them change him. Only hire Christian babysitters who aren’t family.
Circumcision in Islam isn't in the Quran. It's an interpretation and cultural practice only. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't "interpretations" of the Quran forbidden? My understanding is that it's an absolute document. It's none of your family's business. Their problem, not yours. No medical practicioner may perform surgery on a minor with permission from, say, a grandparent, aunt, etc. That pretty much puts an end to all of this now doesn't it?
You must guard your son's genital integrity at every moment, and do NOT allow your relatives to care for him. He requires your protection to avoid disfigurement. Make sure he is NOT sexually damaged the way that you were damaged.
Do not leave your child with any relatives without supervision... sorry but they could always go a non-medical route. Means no dinners alone... no date night alone. So be it. We did the same for different reasons... you can do it.