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Low key I think Alpine has the literal closest lineup. Note not the best lineup but the closest team pairing. Without Ocon 10 billion dnf they be real close.
Ocon is probably a better driver than he typically gets credit for, and I feel like Gasly gets a little too much credit. Skill wise they seem very close
He took out Ocon in Australia in good points position
Ocon had plenty of mechanical failure at the worst moments
I am sorry but this is like claiming Ocon was ahaed of Alonso
It would have helped him if he wasn't so focused on always battling his teammates.
The crash with Piastri was because he was looking behind at Gasly and didn't see Piastri next to him
It seems like nobody remembers Gasly closing Ocon into the wall back in Australia. I know a lot has happened this season but I'd put that shunt right up there with George and Lewis recently.
at the same time you forget that if not for that ridiculous completely unnecessary red flag 2 laps before the end (which the FIA did for the sake of the show) , they wouldn't be even close to each other. Gasly was 5th, aiming for solid 10 points, whereas Esteban was just 10th.
Of course Gasly move was wrong, but he also got unlucky that day. The race should've been finished behind the SC.
Ocon got initially unlucky with the red flag as he pit just beforehand dropping him to 14th. Gasly had a strong race to be fair to be running 5th the whole time, however, Ocon really should’ve been in that battle. Even after the final red flag, Ocon got up to P7 before he was taken out and so missed out on decent points.
Ocon’s the French George Russell. The combination of an aggressive driving style and upsetting the apple cart by beating a supposedly better, former WDC teammate = lots of people on Reddit looking for ways to unfairly criticise and blame them for things.
No need for the quotation marks. Luckily F1 keeps score of results, so we can see that Ocon objectively, inarguably beat Alonso by 11 points over their second season together. He also beat him cumulatively across 2 entire years
>They were three abreast
>
>How exactly could this have been avoided
The third to the party waits for a different moment? The last guy to join can see there are already 2 people there, right?
He was looking at the inside of the next corner, not at Gasly. He was already ahead of Gasly after turn 1. By the end of lap 1 he was 3 places ahead of Gasly
Their parents have real beef with one another because Ocon was much poorer than Gasley (they sold their house to allow him to keep karting) and they were both looking for the same sponsorships. Though it appears the drivers don't carry that themselves
Numbers the drivers current points as a percent of the teams total points.
Alpha Tauri does not add up to 100% due to Lawson's points while Danny was out.
Edit
Numbers are rounded, that's why Alfa adds up to 101 for some reason.
i thought DR has had four entries so far this season? unless you're just saying that to be like "wow this single race was really impressive", which, agreed!
And Yuki got 25% of the team's points the race before. That's less of an astonishing stat and more just the result of a team with a mere handful of points.
I think Oscar being at 2:1 with Lando is a very respectable performance for a rookie, and about what the team would have hoped for. Especially as he's been a step behind with the upgrades. It seems lando's got a bit more momentum right now, so I can see the gap growing a bit, but I think they can all be pleased
Piastri's main weakness is his race pace and that is learned through experience. I think Piastri has exceeded McLaren's expectations, seeing as how much they extended his contract by.
Not always it can be learned through experience. I mean experience helps, this is true, but some drivers are just faster than others in races, and it was always like that.
Oscar is fast, his push pace is good on a car that's apparently tricky to drive. It's a million times easier to get good at managing tires once you have pace than it is to find pace while managing tires. When I'm coaching karters, the best guys are always initially very hard on tires and then I get them to dial back their extreme inputs and start over driving less. No doubt he'll get a lot better race pace with more time
I saw Max Verstappen jumping into Red bull car, not doing even winter testing or anything, just three FP sessions, and immediately running faster and looking after his tires better than his very fast and experienced teammate Daniel in the race on Sunday. Not even once I saw him being THAT much slower than any of his teammates on race pace, struggling with tire wear or degradation a lot more than any of his teammates.
As you said Oscar is fast over single lap, compared to Lando. But it's also very clear their styles are quite different. They use different lines, Oscar is more aggressive with his pedal inputs, he always brakes later and harsher for example. He might change his style, but lose some one lap time as well. Who knows?
So, race pace and tire deg, both depend also on drivers particular style and skill(ability to deal with ever changing balance and drive fast on worn-out tires), not just experience.
For example, Massa could sometimes out qualify Alonso completely on merit, but next day finish the race like 20-40 seconds behind, not really having any issues, or bad pit stop, whatever. He was just that much slow, and he had plenty of experience back then. We saw the same with Bottas. All of F1 drivers are fast, but they aren't equally fast, some are just faster than the others, and the biggest difference always becomes visible on Sundays.
A lot of people were hyping Oscar up even before the season started putting him in the same row with Verstappen, Hamilton and Alonso, stating he will beat Lando in the 2nd half of this year already(which obviously didn't happen). For me it is just premature for that. I mean it was clear he's got talent, but what his ceiling will be is not quite clear yet.
Max also already had more than a seasons worth of F1 experience when he jumped into the Red Bull, so not entirely fair comparison
Also we have no idea how good Lando truely is currently. I for one see no reason why he couldn't be up there with Hamilton.
People significantly underrate Norris because he didn't win F2, but he was up against Russell who is very good and a few years older than him
If you look at it from that perspective, is rookie piastri doing that much worse than a Russell against Hamilton this year?
He's also been severely unlucky a few times (pitting before red flags, being taken out by Lewis, etc) and always been a race behind on getting upgrades (unbiased opinion)
Totally. Even the last 2 races they've taken a big step forward. Yuki and Daniel both looked quick in Mexico and I'm looking forward to finally (hopefully) seeing a true, representative comparison between them both this weekend.
- week 1: Daniel's first drive in the AT
- week 2: Very different set ups for each driver leading to very different results from the sprint to the GP
- week 3: Daniel's comeback from injury, still not at 100%
- week 4: Yuki took penalties, didn't compete with Daniel in quali, then crashed himself out of contention in the race
I must have missed Gasly now being higher in points than Ocon
my impression this season is that Ocon has had an edge on Gasly in most races
EDIT: just seen that Ocon has had a lot of unlucky reliability based retirements this year
Gasly finished ahead of Ocon only like 4 times, while Ocon did it already 8 times. The rest were DNFs.
I've recently noticed that two Ocon DNFs in Singapore (gearbox) and in Austin (racing incident on lap1) created a massive 22 points swing in favor of Gasly, so yeah - there is no argument about Esteban's bad luck.
But that doesn't mean Pierre is just lucky, he is doing his job very well.
But unironically, Brazil 2018 wasn't his fault. If you showed the replay to people without them knowing which car was which there would be near unanimous agreement that Max caused that crash.
They’ve been pretty evenly matched. But I’d say it’s the other way around. Gasly is doing very well. Though they both have a fair share of car troubles so it makes it hard to judge most of the time
The problem is that people often forget this, it's sad but the clear conclusion should be that if you drive for Alpine this season you simple getting some huge shit tier bad luck also.
The only one that was costly in his WDC battle with Gasly was Singapore, and another one that could be potentially costly was USA, which was mostly his own wrong doing, surely nothing to do with bad luck.
Look again, I was talking about the second part of this season, talking on their pace, not necessarily results points-wise.
Gasly by the way had his share of bad luck as well this year. Although their unfortunate crash in Australia was mostly Gasly own fault(which costed points for both), just before that super late unnecessary red flag Gasly was 5th, Ocon just 10th and they would've finished the race in these positions. This is 9 points swing loss for Gasly, which balances out perfectly by Ocon' Singapore DNF(mechanical) in the 2nd part.
In Mexico Gasly got very unlucky again with the red flag losing a chance for some solid points, contrary to that Ocon benefited from it directly.
If you look at qualifying Head to head in the 2nd part, Gasly has clear edge, which wasn't the case in the beginning and that as well has nothing to do with bad luck.
>just before that super late unnecessary red flag Gasly was 5th, Ocon just 10th and they would've finished the race in these positions.
Ocon was 10th before because he pitted right before the first red flag. Otherwise he would have been right behind Gasly
They've both had rotten luck, just that Ocon has had more of it.
When you go through the results, the first weekend of the year that Gasly didn't score points that didn't have some extenuating circumstances was Monza, and that was because the Renault engine is basically from a Clio. (One of those extenuating circumstances might have been him taking Ocon and himself out of Australia, but he was quick that race!). For a car that has never really been above 5th fastest on the grid, it's very good going
I'm a gasly fan and I see it the other way around. Gasly was driving phenomenally at the beginning of the season, but alpine being alpine it got no coverage.
Really I thought Ocon was out qualifying Gasly a lot in the first half and it switched to Gasly now.
Just looking at the points Ocon was ahead until about halfway now Gasly has built a lead.
> Oscar has earned a greater share of his team's points than Perez. Ferrari is the most balanced team with only a 4% spread.
I say this every time this comes up but the % share of points is not a fantastic measure of how "well" drivers are doing due to the unequal gap between points.
It is a measure. It's just not a great one.
P10 vs p11 is 100% difference.
P9 vs P10 is 66/33% of points.
P1 vs P2 is 58/42%.
Out of 3 examples where teammates finish one behind the other - who is doing better...? Who is closer...?
Did GR63 really get mopped by Kubica with 0% of the teams points...?
Over one race, agreed, it's not good. Over a season, though, it directly correlates to $$$MMM, so I think it's a pretty solid indicator of how the team feels about their drivers.
It's hard to know what to make of Tsunoda's season.
He best DeVries 2 points to nil, and was close to earning more whereas DeVries never seemed close to points. However, since DeVries was dropped so quickly you could argue he wasn't a useful yardstick.
Lawson beat Tsunoda 2 points to nil, but Tsunoda suffered a DNS and was crashed by Perez during that give race stretch. Still, it doesn't seem great that he wasn't clearly better than a rookie.
Ricciardo and Tsunoda have 6 points apiece when facing each other. Tsunoda's 5 point haul benefited from a double DSQ further up the field. Ricciardo's 6 point haul benefited from 1 DNF and also came when Tsunoda was unable to meaningfully participate in qualifying so we don't know how far up he might have made it. He'd be ahead though if he hasn't crashed himself out of the points by trying a reckless move in Piastri
Overall, probably not impressive enough from a third year driver and often like like he might not be the easiest to work with
We say that a drivers first real objective to help themselves is to defeat their teammate.
In that sense, Tsunoda has had 3 in rapid succession. Each one's introduction weighs in his mind as "do or die time".
The biggest problem with Tsunoda is his mental and driving skills(positioning, overtaking, feedback) not the speed. I don't think he improved much in those 3 years.
He's fast on a good day. And that's about it.
If you take a look at his 2021 he did improve very much.
His 2021 was a complete disaster and he probably would have been dropped if not for Honda supporting him
>Ricciardo's 6 point haul benefited from 1 DNF and also came when Tsunoda was unable to meaningfully participate in qualifying so we don't know how far up he might have made it.
Red flag changed things completely and if there wasn't a red flag then too Ricciardo could have finished P6 even if Perez didn't crash himself out and with Perez's crash he could have cruised to P5 easily without the red flag.
Also the red flag negated the disadvantage that Tsunoda had for starting at the back of the grid as he was given P8 on plate on the restart, also he was on a 1 stop strategy but ran wide and pitted again lap 10 cuz of it, so his race became a 2 stop and he was yet to pit 2nd time when the race was red flagged around lap 35, giving him a free pitstop and even his earlier mistake got negated, also he was on much fresh tyres at the restart and was given an easy P7-P8 on plate but he bottled it again.
Also Tsunoda had a fresh PU advantage too.
Ricciardo would've had two positions actually. The red flag helped both Russell and Hamilton. They got fresh tires and a bunched up restart on medium tires. Without that, both Russell AND Hamilton would've had to make a third stop. And Leclerc would've needed a longer stop for the front wing. Ricciardo could've had P5.
I wonder how could he be significantly better than Gasly if he gets a DNS and a lap 1 DNF. What was he suppose to do, run besides the track?
He did smash NdV, and lets wait and see with DR h2h. If he wasnt stupid as fuck he would have probably be very near DR in mexico, all that while starting last.
In the end, we must not forget Yuki is a pay driver. Nobody thinks he will become the next Max, you have to compare him with the likes of Stroll, Zhou, Latifi etc
Keep in mind that these stats are heavily based on position on the grid and closeness of the competition around them. If a car is in no ones land relative to other cars in pace the teammates are much more likely to finish next to eachother compared to a a car that has many similar paced cars around it. Also its much easier to get high percentage difference when a team is fighting for singular points as opposed to fighting for the 15-8 points region. 1 and 0 points infinite percentage, 1 and 2 is 100% and 12 and 10 is just 17% difference.
Yep. I don’t like point based stats for this reason amongst others. They aren’t like for like depending on the points system used and on which band of the points system the results sit.
Looking at finishing positions is a far more neutral way to gauge relative performances between team mates.
100% as with any percent low numbers mean big swings.
The title is a bit clickbaity as McLarens lower point total make that 1% for Oscar easier to eek out. And is of course why Ricciardo barrels into 38% with all of one race of points.
But I think its an interesting peek into the nature of the teams none the less. The Ferrari's have been very consistent of late and are often running side by side.
RBR seriously needs a logo update. Their parent company is a marketing company and this just looks so ancient, I mean.. gradient colour on a font? 3 different fonts?! Come on which decade is this. Easily the worst looking logo here.
If Daniel beats Yuki's points with like 10 fewer races, that'll be something. The AT has been a horrible car but still that would be an impressive feat.
To be fair, they also scored 11 of the 16 points in the last two races, and with a 5/6, so the car became competitive around the time Daniel came back, which is impressive luck.
I seem to recall reading an article that stated one of the factors in AT’s decision to bring on DR was his knowledge regarding set up. I’m sure not entirely but could that have a small part in their form improving recently?
To be fair, Daniel capitalized more with the luck given to him. Yuki did start from the back but benefited from the red flag for his strategy, if I remember correctly, but blew it in the end.
It’s the only relevant races to consider if we are talking about points per race if they couldn’t score points in the others. It’s also relevant since Danny didn’t race for most of the others. It’s also relevant that Yuki missed out on a points hall due to his on track demeanor.
Hate it when people try to dismiss an entire comment with one irrelevant “point.”
There's essentially no way to actually tell since it's difficult to control for the car upgrades and much less whose input is driving those. For all we know, DEV could have had some great input and those insights are being realized with this package.
>In his defence you can't fairly compare them this weekend because yuki started from the back
No that thing just got negated as he was given P8 on plate on the restart, also he was on a 1 stop strategy but ran wide and pitted again lap 10 cuz of it, so his race became a 2 stop and he was yet to pit 2nd time when the race was red flagged around lap 35, giving him a free pitstop and even his earlier mistake got negated, also he was on much fresh tyres at the restart and was given an easy P7-P8 on plate but he bottled it again.
Also Tsunoda had a fresher PU advantage too.
Alpha Tauri has literally said that DR is a contributor to why their car improved. He helped them with setup which gave them a more pointy car. They had previously been using a setup with more understeer which is stable for rookie drivers. But Ricciardo worked with their engineers to improve the setup and that's how they found this pace. Even Tsunoda said that Ricciardo is very well liked by the engineers and mechanics because he provides a lot of feedback. This isn't a secret but you're like, "oh a magical pace fairy blessed Ricciardo, he's still shit."
people always point to yuki as an example of why drivers should get time but he's not proof of that. 💀 he was probably the 19th best driver in 2021, the 17th best driver last year and now this lol. i'm convinced that the only reason he's still at AT is bc of his honda ties.
Yuki finished in 10th or 11th the first five races of the season. From what we’ve seen against non DeVries teammates, the car was good enough for points. This Singapore stuff is nonsense
Exactly. They were last in the WCC because of consistently finishing *just outside* the points, not because they were finishing consistently last. The car has been better (in race trim at least) than the Haas and Alfa cars for most of the season, but NDV was really underperforming and Yuki has had some really bad luck from scoring positions.
So be fair, when you disregard Oscar being a rookie, that should kind off be expected. The points gap between 1st and 2nd is much bigger than say 3rd and 4th.
I honestly don’t get why Haas were so quick to extend Kmag. He’s been pretty lacklustre compared to hulk. If they don’t want rookies (and there’s probably a few out there that would’ve been better) they could’ve gone for Zhou or and even Perez might be available
Mick wasn’t too bad so if he got extended it would make sense but his crash bill was unfortunately too high whereas both K Mag and Hulk have proven to be fairly reliable and safe.
The entire thing with Mick was such a shitshow. He might not be an F1 driver, but for Gunther to talk about someone else's performance is real fucking rich.
Last 5 years have seen Haas go 9, 9, 10, 8, 10. The only constant is Steiner.
Haas has enough options in 2025, but likely there would be some huge political pressure to getting Bearman in that seat.
Ferrari funds aren't charity funds, they want something in return.
Perez is shitting the bed recently but that's kind of a dumb comparison. Piastri has just over a third the number of points of Perez so making him out to be the "winner" of a stats shootout is kinda lame and takes away from the incredible season he's having.
Otherwise great graphic, really wish it included points for perspective. 75%-25% sounds like a big teammate performance gap but if you see that its 3 points versus 1 that's still a 4 point dookie season for the team.
For sure, its a sport where the mix of driver, engineering, design, and support all play a key role.
But those complexities don't make for easy to digest quick stats.
Although you can see a trend, using this point system the better teams will always be closer together due to the points they get compared to the lower teams. It’s an interesting way of comparing but it’s not really a fair view of the difference.
> It’s an interesting way of comparing but it’s not really a fair view of the difference.
Agreed.
I always say this on points spreads.
P10 vs p11 is 100% difference.
P9 vs P10 is 66/33% of points.
P1 vs P2 is 58 vs 42%. Who is doing better...?
Some perspective on Perez: being the second seat with a dominant teammate means an expected max points share of just 42% (18/43). A lot more room for balance when your team is 2nd/3rd/4th best.
many would not - Perez has been proof of that. but also there's a considerable number of drivers who easily could.
the Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren pair easily would've done just as well if not better as a pairing provided with the same resources as the Red Bull car, pitwall and personnel.
God that just makes me want Ferrari to have an RB type car, can you imagine the spiciness of Charles and Carlos fighting for champion then everything else also on top of it? Beautiful.
Lewis' spread over Russell would be much higher if it weren't for the team's mistake, taking away Lewis p2 @ COTA and Lewis' assured podium-turned-DNF @ Qatar. Probably would put him in the top 3.
u/FSUfan35 I'm sorry bud but each time I see the Alpine gap for some reason I think about your comment from months ago and... respectfully I'm rubbing your face in this now!
Couple of months ago (little after Monaco) they said it wasn't a good look on Gasly how Ocon had twice the points Gasly had.
I thought it was silly, it stuck with me because they were pretty much even except for one podium, then Gasly got his at Zandvoort and I reminded him of his comment, now seeing this post I thought: been a while, he might've forgotten...
All in good fun
[Here is wins (1st place only, includes sprints)](https://i.imgur.com/Hbf3sq1.png)
[Here is podiums, 1st 2nd and 3rd, includes sprints.](https://i.imgur.com/1o0TeZ4.png)
Wins is fairly uninteresting with Max this year. But Podiums is neat because we see Leclerc swap with Sainz.
DR scoring a decent proportion from 1 points win is slightly misleading. The car was also awful during the first half of the season to counter him doing it in 'only 4 races'.
Brazil will be interesting, I hope he turns up again.
But the majority of the /r/Formula1 armchair experts told me clearly that Gasly would be beaten hard by Ocon, is an overrated terrible driver and even someone like Stroll was better than him....
I cannot wait until I getting flooded by reactions like "But Ocon is so unlucky and if... ", yea nice try but lady luck hates Alpine in general this season and both did dealing too much with having shit tier bad luck.
Alpine has enough things to work on but the driver pairing is one of the last thing to being concerned about, simple as that.
>Oscar has earned a greater share of his team's points than Perez.
>
>Ferrari is the most balanced team with only a 4% spread.
Meanwhile, Verstappen - Sainz over 23 races as team-mates 74%-26% ( 62-22 on points)
Interesting...🤔
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Low key I think Alpine has the literal closest lineup. Note not the best lineup but the closest team pairing. Without Ocon 10 billion dnf they be real close.
The 10 billion dnf and about 2 years' worth of penalties.
Ocon is probably a better driver than he typically gets credit for, and I feel like Gasly gets a little too much credit. Skill wise they seem very close
Either way, I bet two time WDC winner Alonso isn't stoked that his nemesis on the grid is the definition of a midfield driver.
Gasly's first season and he's ahead. He will pass Ocon next year. And Ocon will shunt both cars when it happens.
He took out Ocon in Australia in good points position Ocon had plenty of mechanical failure at the worst moments I am sorry but this is like claiming Ocon was ahaed of Alonso
Sure, but Russell was ahead of Hamilton in his first year at Mercedes. Points don't always tell the full story.
It would have helped him if he wasn't so focused on always battling his teammates. The crash with Piastri was because he was looking behind at Gasly and didn't see Piastri next to him
Ironic because the major alpine clash this season was from Gaslys doing not Ocon.
It seems like nobody remembers Gasly closing Ocon into the wall back in Australia. I know a lot has happened this season but I'd put that shunt right up there with George and Lewis recently.
at the same time you forget that if not for that ridiculous completely unnecessary red flag 2 laps before the end (which the FIA did for the sake of the show) , they wouldn't be even close to each other. Gasly was 5th, aiming for solid 10 points, whereas Esteban was just 10th. Of course Gasly move was wrong, but he also got unlucky that day. The race should've been finished behind the SC.
Ocon got initially unlucky with the red flag as he pit just beforehand dropping him to 14th. Gasly had a strong race to be fair to be running 5th the whole time, however, Ocon really should’ve been in that battle. Even after the final red flag, Ocon got up to P7 before he was taken out and so missed out on decent points.
Ocon’s the French George Russell. The combination of an aggressive driving style and upsetting the apple cart by beating a supposedly better, former WDC teammate = lots of people on Reddit looking for ways to unfairly criticise and blame them for things.
And both tall
> beating a supposedly better, former WDC teammate "beat"
No need for the quotation marks. Luckily F1 keeps score of results, so we can see that Ocon objectively, inarguably beat Alonso by 11 points over their second season together. He also beat him cumulatively across 2 entire years
Because Alonso is at fault for his engines dying on him? Most people understand that points don't always tell the full story
Noone said it was Alonso's fault or that Ocon is the better driver. 'Beat' as in he scored more points than Alonso.
oof here it comes
They were three abreast How exactly could this have been avoided Three abreast = crash in most cases
With Piastri? He had no one on his right, he just didn't know Piastri was there so kept going as if he wasn't
>They were three abreast > >How exactly could this have been avoided The third to the party waits for a different moment? The last guy to join can see there are already 2 people there, right?
He was looking at the inside of the next corner, not at Gasly. He was already ahead of Gasly after turn 1. By the end of lap 1 he was 3 places ahead of Gasly
Ocon will gladly lose 4 positions on the outside to block his own team mate who qualified behind. I'm so sick of his inter-team battles.
They both do that; watch the start of the us gp and you can see gasly block ocon so much into turn one that he loses 3 positions.
Without Ocon’s DNFs, Ocon would be clear
it makes sense since they came up together in the JR series and were friends when they were younger
I don’t think he meant “close” as in bff, but in terms of driving skill
Their parents have real beef with one another because Ocon was much poorer than Gasley (they sold their house to allow him to keep karting) and they were both looking for the same sponsorships. Though it appears the drivers don't carry that themselves
I don't think you understand what "literal" means.
[удалено]
>Gasly is beating him, period. You are also conveniently ignoring Ocon's mechanical DNFs
it’s crazy that devries was this season
Numbers the drivers current points as a percent of the teams total points. Alpha Tauri does not add up to 100% due to Lawson's points while Danny was out. Edit Numbers are rounded, that's why Alfa adds up to 101 for some reason.
Yup also doesn’t account for races entered either. DR got 38% of their total points in a single race, which is wild.
This is correct its not adjusted for AT's weird season, Lawsons points are missing from the equation.
Crazy no one even needs to mention DeVries
He's in there but OP set the opacity of his card to be the same as percentage of points.
lol i went and checked, like a dumbass. Nicely done.
i thought DR has had four entries so far this season? unless you're just saying that to be like "wow this single race was really impressive", which, agreed!
He won all those points in one race. It was the only time he finished in the top ten, and it happened to be seventh
FYI: the title should say 4 percentage points, not 4 percent. The difference expressed as a percentage would be 8.3%.
Danny Ric has gotten 38% of Alpha Tauri's points in 1 race
And Yuki got 25% of the team's points the race before. That's less of an astonishing stat and more just the result of a team with a mere handful of points.
I think Oscar being at 2:1 with Lando is a very respectable performance for a rookie, and about what the team would have hoped for. Especially as he's been a step behind with the upgrades. It seems lando's got a bit more momentum right now, so I can see the gap growing a bit, but I think they can all be pleased
Piastri's main weakness is his race pace and that is learned through experience. I think Piastri has exceeded McLaren's expectations, seeing as how much they extended his contract by.
Not always it can be learned through experience. I mean experience helps, this is true, but some drivers are just faster than others in races, and it was always like that.
Oscar is fast, his push pace is good on a car that's apparently tricky to drive. It's a million times easier to get good at managing tires once you have pace than it is to find pace while managing tires. When I'm coaching karters, the best guys are always initially very hard on tires and then I get them to dial back their extreme inputs and start over driving less. No doubt he'll get a lot better race pace with more time
It's easier to make a fast driver consistent than it is to make a consistent driver fast.
Didn't it seem like he caught up each time he got Lando's upgrades? Or was that a one off?
I saw Max Verstappen jumping into Red bull car, not doing even winter testing or anything, just three FP sessions, and immediately running faster and looking after his tires better than his very fast and experienced teammate Daniel in the race on Sunday. Not even once I saw him being THAT much slower than any of his teammates on race pace, struggling with tire wear or degradation a lot more than any of his teammates. As you said Oscar is fast over single lap, compared to Lando. But it's also very clear their styles are quite different. They use different lines, Oscar is more aggressive with his pedal inputs, he always brakes later and harsher for example. He might change his style, but lose some one lap time as well. Who knows? So, race pace and tire deg, both depend also on drivers particular style and skill(ability to deal with ever changing balance and drive fast on worn-out tires), not just experience. For example, Massa could sometimes out qualify Alonso completely on merit, but next day finish the race like 20-40 seconds behind, not really having any issues, or bad pit stop, whatever. He was just that much slow, and he had plenty of experience back then. We saw the same with Bottas. All of F1 drivers are fast, but they aren't equally fast, some are just faster than the others, and the biggest difference always becomes visible on Sundays. A lot of people were hyping Oscar up even before the season started putting him in the same row with Verstappen, Hamilton and Alonso, stating he will beat Lando in the 2nd half of this year already(which obviously didn't happen). For me it is just premature for that. I mean it was clear he's got talent, but what his ceiling will be is not quite clear yet.
Max also already had more than a seasons worth of F1 experience when he jumped into the Red Bull, so not entirely fair comparison Also we have no idea how good Lando truely is currently. I for one see no reason why he couldn't be up there with Hamilton. People significantly underrate Norris because he didn't win F2, but he was up against Russell who is very good and a few years older than him If you look at it from that perspective, is rookie piastri doing that much worse than a Russell against Hamilton this year?
He's also been severely unlucky a few times (pitting before red flags, being taken out by Lewis, etc) and always been a race behind on getting upgrades (unbiased opinion)
Yea Lando had a similar gap to Sainz in his rookie season also because his race pace wasn't as good as his teammate back then
Funny how Danny has done 3 races and already has almost 40% of the total points. Goes to show how slow that AT was in the first part of the season
He also got all those points in one race
Totally. Even the last 2 races they've taken a big step forward. Yuki and Daniel both looked quick in Mexico and I'm looking forward to finally (hopefully) seeing a true, representative comparison between them both this weekend. - week 1: Daniel's first drive in the AT - week 2: Very different set ups for each driver leading to very different results from the sprint to the GP - week 3: Daniel's comeback from injury, still not at 100% - week 4: Yuki took penalties, didn't compete with Daniel in quali, then crashed himself out of contention in the race
Week 3: Dr has damage and gets out on a shit strategy. Has nothing to do with the hand
I must have missed Gasly now being higher in points than Ocon my impression this season is that Ocon has had an edge on Gasly in most races EDIT: just seen that Ocon has had a lot of unlucky reliability based retirements this year
Gasly finished ahead of Ocon only like 4 times, while Ocon did it already 8 times. The rest were DNFs. I've recently noticed that two Ocon DNFs in Singapore (gearbox) and in Austin (racing incident on lap1) created a massive 22 points swing in favor of Gasly, so yeah - there is no argument about Esteban's bad luck. But that doesn't mean Pierre is just lucky, he is doing his job very well.
To be fair Austin wasnt strictly bad luck. The contact was a racing incident, but i'd say Ocon was clearly the culprit in that one
Ocon has had like 6-7 DNFs due to no fault of his own
1st driver alpine curse?
yeah just saw 7 retirements non of them his fault. that's some bad luck
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You can hate on him for Brazil 2018 or annoying Fernando, but Esteban had dreadful luck this year, he should have more points than Gasly
But unironically, Brazil 2018 wasn't his fault. If you showed the replay to people without them knowing which car was which there would be near unanimous agreement that Max caused that crash.
They’ve been pretty evenly matched. But I’d say it’s the other way around. Gasly is doing very well. Though they both have a fair share of car troubles so it makes it hard to judge most of the time
First half Gasly had some bad luck, 2nd half has been Ocon with all the bad luck. They sharing, lmao
The problem is that people often forget this, it's sad but the clear conclusion should be that if you drive for Alpine this season you simple getting some huge shit tier bad luck also.
Now THIS is something I can agree on with you! We might not see eye to eye when it comes to Zhou, but talking Alpine we agree!
Gasly looks clearly faster in the 2nd part of the season. Not by much and not always, obviously but trend is quite clear.
Not really. Ocon has had many dnfs.
The only one that was costly in his WDC battle with Gasly was Singapore, and another one that could be potentially costly was USA, which was mostly his own wrong doing, surely nothing to do with bad luck. Look again, I was talking about the second part of this season, talking on their pace, not necessarily results points-wise. Gasly by the way had his share of bad luck as well this year. Although their unfortunate crash in Australia was mostly Gasly own fault(which costed points for both), just before that super late unnecessary red flag Gasly was 5th, Ocon just 10th and they would've finished the race in these positions. This is 9 points swing loss for Gasly, which balances out perfectly by Ocon' Singapore DNF(mechanical) in the 2nd part. In Mexico Gasly got very unlucky again with the red flag losing a chance for some solid points, contrary to that Ocon benefited from it directly. If you look at qualifying Head to head in the 2nd part, Gasly has clear edge, which wasn't the case in the beginning and that as well has nothing to do with bad luck.
>just before that super late unnecessary red flag Gasly was 5th, Ocon just 10th and they would've finished the race in these positions. Ocon was 10th before because he pitted right before the first red flag. Otherwise he would have been right behind Gasly
They've both had rotten luck, just that Ocon has had more of it. When you go through the results, the first weekend of the year that Gasly didn't score points that didn't have some extenuating circumstances was Monza, and that was because the Renault engine is basically from a Clio. (One of those extenuating circumstances might have been him taking Ocon and himself out of Australia, but he was quick that race!). For a car that has never really been above 5th fastest on the grid, it's very good going
I thought ocon was better in the first half and gasly has been better in the second.
Ocon has had a lot of dnfs and in mexico for example he had a much older engine because of it
Tbh Ocon was (for once) hugely lucky in Mexico, the red flag literally saved his race. Guess lady luck somehow went lost and found Ocon?
I'm a gasly fan and I see it the other way around. Gasly was driving phenomenally at the beginning of the season, but alpine being alpine it got no coverage.
Really I thought Ocon was out qualifying Gasly a lot in the first half and it switched to Gasly now. Just looking at the points Ocon was ahead until about halfway now Gasly has built a lead.
Oh for sure. I meant mostly the race pace. Gasly was performing very well first half with a lot of bad luck when he was running high.
> Oscar has earned a greater share of his team's points than Perez. Ferrari is the most balanced team with only a 4% spread. I say this every time this comes up but the % share of points is not a fantastic measure of how "well" drivers are doing due to the unequal gap between points. It is a measure. It's just not a great one. P10 vs p11 is 100% difference. P9 vs P10 is 66/33% of points. P1 vs P2 is 58/42%. Out of 3 examples where teammates finish one behind the other - who is doing better...? Who is closer...? Did GR63 really get mopped by Kubica with 0% of the teams points...?
Absolutely. It's hardly a perfect indicator, but I think it's an interesting one especially for teams with high point totals.
Over one race, agreed, it's not good. Over a season, though, it directly correlates to $$$MMM, so I think it's a pretty solid indicator of how the team feels about their drivers.
Ferraris are similar but Carlos is P4 and Charles P7
Very tight spread from P4-P8 P4: Sainz 183 pts P5: Alonso 183 pts P6: Norris 169 pts P7: Leclerc 166 pts P8: Russell 151 pts
Poor Nando is gonna end up 8th at this rate
you think Russell gonna score 32 points in 3 races?
Pretty tight spread up top bar Verstappen.
it'd be even tighter if their technical DNF/DNSs were removed (+15 points for Charles, +6 for Carlos, so a difference of like 8 points in the end)
Add to that strategy fails and incompetent engineer and Charles would be likely ahead
At this point, strategy failure is not a bug, it's a feature in Ferrari's team and Charles needs to adapt to it.
It's hard to know what to make of Tsunoda's season. He best DeVries 2 points to nil, and was close to earning more whereas DeVries never seemed close to points. However, since DeVries was dropped so quickly you could argue he wasn't a useful yardstick. Lawson beat Tsunoda 2 points to nil, but Tsunoda suffered a DNS and was crashed by Perez during that give race stretch. Still, it doesn't seem great that he wasn't clearly better than a rookie. Ricciardo and Tsunoda have 6 points apiece when facing each other. Tsunoda's 5 point haul benefited from a double DSQ further up the field. Ricciardo's 6 point haul benefited from 1 DNF and also came when Tsunoda was unable to meaningfully participate in qualifying so we don't know how far up he might have made it. He'd be ahead though if he hasn't crashed himself out of the points by trying a reckless move in Piastri Overall, probably not impressive enough from a third year driver and often like like he might not be the easiest to work with
We say that a drivers first real objective to help themselves is to defeat their teammate. In that sense, Tsunoda has had 3 in rapid succession. Each one's introduction weighs in his mind as "do or die time".
The biggest problem with Tsunoda is his mental and driving skills(positioning, overtaking, feedback) not the speed. I don't think he improved much in those 3 years. He's fast on a good day. And that's about it.
If you take a look at his 2021 he did improve very much. His 2021 was a complete disaster and he probably would have been dropped if not for Honda supporting him
I think you meant race craft but I'm with you.
>Ricciardo's 6 point haul benefited from 1 DNF and also came when Tsunoda was unable to meaningfully participate in qualifying so we don't know how far up he might have made it. Red flag changed things completely and if there wasn't a red flag then too Ricciardo could have finished P6 even if Perez didn't crash himself out and with Perez's crash he could have cruised to P5 easily without the red flag. Also the red flag negated the disadvantage that Tsunoda had for starting at the back of the grid as he was given P8 on plate on the restart, also he was on a 1 stop strategy but ran wide and pitted again lap 10 cuz of it, so his race became a 2 stop and he was yet to pit 2nd time when the race was red flagged around lap 35, giving him a free pitstop and even his earlier mistake got negated, also he was on much fresh tyres at the restart and was given an easy P7-P8 on plate but he bottled it again. Also Tsunoda had a fresh PU advantage too.
Ricciardo would've had two positions actually. The red flag helped both Russell and Hamilton. They got fresh tires and a bunched up restart on medium tires. Without that, both Russell AND Hamilton would've had to make a third stop. And Leclerc would've needed a longer stop for the front wing. Ricciardo could've had P5.
Yeah that's why I said that he could have been P6 without RedFlag even if Perez was in the race,but he wasn't, so P5.
I wonder how could he be significantly better than Gasly if he gets a DNS and a lap 1 DNF. What was he suppose to do, run besides the track? He did smash NdV, and lets wait and see with DR h2h. If he wasnt stupid as fuck he would have probably be very near DR in mexico, all that while starting last. In the end, we must not forget Yuki is a pay driver. Nobody thinks he will become the next Max, you have to compare him with the likes of Stroll, Zhou, Latifi etc
Keep in mind that these stats are heavily based on position on the grid and closeness of the competition around them. If a car is in no ones land relative to other cars in pace the teammates are much more likely to finish next to eachother compared to a a car that has many similar paced cars around it. Also its much easier to get high percentage difference when a team is fighting for singular points as opposed to fighting for the 15-8 points region. 1 and 0 points infinite percentage, 1 and 2 is 100% and 12 and 10 is just 17% difference.
Yep. I don’t like point based stats for this reason amongst others. They aren’t like for like depending on the points system used and on which band of the points system the results sit. Looking at finishing positions is a far more neutral way to gauge relative performances between team mates.
I think looking at time difference, especially in quali, is the least impacted by outside stuff.
100% as with any percent low numbers mean big swings. The title is a bit clickbaity as McLarens lower point total make that 1% for Oscar easier to eek out. And is of course why Ricciardo barrels into 38% with all of one race of points. But I think its an interesting peek into the nature of the teams none the less. The Ferrari's have been very consistent of late and are often running side by side.
RBR seriously needs a logo update. Their parent company is a marketing company and this just looks so ancient, I mean.. gradient colour on a font? 3 different fonts?! Come on which decade is this. Easily the worst looking logo here.
RBR's official logo is stunningly bad its true.
If Daniel beats Yuki's points with like 10 fewer races, that'll be something. The AT has been a horrible car but still that would be an impressive feat.
To be fair, they also scored 11 of the 16 points in the last two races, and with a 5/6, so the car became competitive around the time Daniel came back, which is impressive luck.
I seem to recall reading an article that stated one of the factors in AT’s decision to bring on DR was his knowledge regarding set up. I’m sure not entirely but could that have a small part in their form improving recently?
To be fair, Daniel capitalized more with the luck given to him. Yuki did start from the back but benefited from the red flag for his strategy, if I remember correctly, but blew it in the end.
That's true, but irrelevant. Most of the races of the season, the AT couldn't score point, so comparing point/race is a poor metric.
It’s the only relevant races to consider if we are talking about points per race if they couldn’t score points in the others. It’s also relevant since Danny didn’t race for most of the others. It’s also relevant that Yuki missed out on a points hall due to his on track demeanor. Hate it when people try to dismiss an entire comment with one irrelevant “point.”
Luck? Or Daniel's input to upgrades?
There's essentially no way to actually tell since it's difficult to control for the car upgrades and much less whose input is driving those. For all we know, DEV could have had some great input and those insights are being realized with this package.
Thing is, the alpha Tauri has become a better car since Singapore. The AT prior to Singapore was abysmal, a litreal tractor
I mean yeah.... but Yuki is still driving aswell? In his defence you can't fairly compare them this weekend because yuki started from the back
>In his defence you can't fairly compare them this weekend because yuki started from the back No that thing just got negated as he was given P8 on plate on the restart, also he was on a 1 stop strategy but ran wide and pitted again lap 10 cuz of it, so his race became a 2 stop and he was yet to pit 2nd time when the race was red flagged around lap 35, giving him a free pitstop and even his earlier mistake got negated, also he was on much fresh tyres at the restart and was given an easy P7-P8 on plate but he bottled it again. Also Tsunoda had a fresher PU advantage too.
Alpha Tauri has literally said that DR is a contributor to why their car improved. He helped them with setup which gave them a more pointy car. They had previously been using a setup with more understeer which is stable for rookie drivers. But Ricciardo worked with their engineers to improve the setup and that's how they found this pace. Even Tsunoda said that Ricciardo is very well liked by the engineers and mechanics because he provides a lot of feedback. This isn't a secret but you're like, "oh a magical pace fairy blessed Ricciardo, he's still shit."
Ricciardo + Lawson already matching Tsunoda in less than half a season is already damn impressive.
people always point to yuki as an example of why drivers should get time but he's not proof of that. 💀 he was probably the 19th best driver in 2021, the 17th best driver last year and now this lol. i'm convinced that the only reason he's still at AT is bc of his honda ties.
It's no secret that he's still there thanks to Honda. Horner has publicly stated he wanted Lawson for 2024, but Marko ruled it out because Honda.
Did Horner really say that?
I agree, Daniels drive in Mexico was truly wild to see.
Yuki finished in 10th or 11th the first five races of the season. From what we’ve seen against non DeVries teammates, the car was good enough for points. This Singapore stuff is nonsense
Exactly. They were last in the WCC because of consistently finishing *just outside* the points, not because they were finishing consistently last. The car has been better (in race trim at least) than the Haas and Alfa cars for most of the season, but NDV was really underperforming and Yuki has had some really bad luck from scoring positions.
Honestly expected AM’s split to be bigger.
So be fair, when you disregard Oscar being a rookie, that should kind off be expected. The points gap between 1st and 2nd is much bigger than say 3rd and 4th.
Well, yeah. How many points would you expect Perez to win for McLaren?
Honestly the Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren and Alpine pairs are really good. Aston and RB are being carried by 1 man each team individually.
Aston and RB but not Williams???
Oh crap I just realised. Apologies it’s my fault i didn’t see it properly. Yeah you are right Williams as well.
If Oscar had the upgrades sooner he surely would have gotten good points earlier too.
Albon is my driver of the year. Consistently out-performs his equipment. Has showed skill, character, and perseverance. Hugely impressive.
He's as good as George and maybe better, trouble is if he can find a top seat in some team and hopefully soon.
I honestly don’t get why Haas were so quick to extend Kmag. He’s been pretty lacklustre compared to hulk. If they don’t want rookies (and there’s probably a few out there that would’ve been better) they could’ve gone for Zhou or and even Perez might be available
The car is shit. What's the point of replacing Magnussen for Zhou?
By your logic they should’ve stuck with Mick
Mick wasn’t too bad so if he got extended it would make sense but his crash bill was unfortunately too high whereas both K Mag and Hulk have proven to be fairly reliable and safe.
Nobody can afford that crash-king Mick!
I think most people agree, but I don’t think Gunther liked being the 2nd most popular person in the team.
The entire thing with Mick was such a shitshow. He might not be an F1 driver, but for Gunther to talk about someone else's performance is real fucking rich. Last 5 years have seen Haas go 9, 9, 10, 8, 10. The only constant is Steiner.
Zhou is not better than Kmag
Haas has enough options in 2025, but likely there would be some huge political pressure to getting Bearman in that seat. Ferrari funds aren't charity funds, they want something in return.
Perez is shitting the bed recently but that's kind of a dumb comparison. Piastri has just over a third the number of points of Perez so making him out to be the "winner" of a stats shootout is kinda lame and takes away from the incredible season he's having. Otherwise great graphic, really wish it included points for perspective. 75%-25% sounds like a big teammate performance gap but if you see that its 3 points versus 1 that's still a 4 point dookie season for the team.
Formula 1 is not just about the drivers; it's about the collaborative effort of the entire team.
For sure, its a sport where the mix of driver, engineering, design, and support all play a key role. But those complexities don't make for easy to digest quick stats.
The standout stat is actually DR v Yuki.
What's your opinion on that?
Zhou also has a greater share of his team’s points than Perez. As do Ocon, Russell and crucially, Ricciardo
I understand the AT numbers but why does Alfa's add up to 101?
I can’t remember thinking at all this year other than qualy about the Haas’. But man that disparity is way bigger than I would’ve guessed
Remember the first few races when Stroll was actually doing well, Alonso was killing it, and everyone was buzzing about Aston? Those were fun times.
Although you can see a trend, using this point system the better teams will always be closer together due to the points they get compared to the lower teams. It’s an interesting way of comparing but it’s not really a fair view of the difference.
> It’s an interesting way of comparing but it’s not really a fair view of the difference. Agreed. I always say this on points spreads. P10 vs p11 is 100% difference. P9 vs P10 is 66/33% of points. P1 vs P2 is 58 vs 42%. Who is doing better...?
Some perspective on Perez: being the second seat with a dominant teammate means an expected max points share of just 42% (18/43). A lot more room for balance when your team is 2nd/3rd/4th best.
To be fair Perez getting 2nd each time would result in 41% while another team going say 3rd 4th would be a nearly equal split.
Nice stats. Thanks
and this is after Ham's P2 was converted to a DSQ.
Which of these driver pairings MIGHT NOT win the WDC if they were in the Red Bull Car?
many would not - Perez has been proof of that. but also there's a considerable number of drivers who easily could. the Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren pair easily would've done just as well if not better as a pairing provided with the same resources as the Red Bull car, pitwall and personnel.
The guy Logan doesn't come out of this very well.
Williams is stark. But Yuki only being 12% higher than Daniel, when he's had 15 more opportunities to score is not a good look.
God that just makes me want Ferrari to have an RB type car, can you imagine the spiciness of Charles and Carlos fighting for champion then everything else also on top of it? Beautiful.
lots of "we talk later, after race" radio messages
Lewis' spread over Russell would be much higher if it weren't for the team's mistake, taking away Lewis p2 @ COTA and Lewis' assured podium-turned-DNF @ Qatar. Probably would put him in the top 3.
I like Magnussen as a racer and am really surprised by this year's results for him.
Great stat
u/FSUfan35 I'm sorry bud but each time I see the Alpine gap for some reason I think about your comment from months ago and... respectfully I'm rubbing your face in this now!
Context?
IIRC I said it wasn't a good look that Gasly was getting smashed by Ocon. I'm just flattered someone remembered my take lmao
Haha i imagen yeah, it defently looked like ot at the start, we shall see if ocons bad lucl wears off a bit towards the end now
Couple of months ago (little after Monaco) they said it wasn't a good look on Gasly how Ocon had twice the points Gasly had. I thought it was silly, it stuck with me because they were pretty much even except for one podium, then Gasly got his at Zandvoort and I reminded him of his comment, now seeing this post I thought: been a while, he might've forgotten... All in good fun
Ah fair fair, although in ocons defense he had super shit luck
Oh definitely, which kind of makes it funny because it's still F1, tables turn.
He has earned a greater share than several other drivers. Why call out Perez in your title?
Its a bit tongue in cheek and playing on the current scrutiny Perez is under.
Disgraceful from Lance.
Now do wins.
[Here is wins (1st place only, includes sprints)](https://i.imgur.com/Hbf3sq1.png) [Here is podiums, 1st 2nd and 3rd, includes sprints.](https://i.imgur.com/1o0TeZ4.png) Wins is fairly uninteresting with Max this year. But Podiums is neat because we see Leclerc swap with Sainz.
DR scoring a decent proportion from 1 points win is slightly misleading. The car was also awful during the first half of the season to counter him doing it in 'only 4 races'. Brazil will be interesting, I hope he turns up again.
Ricciardo being so close to Yuki depite driving for only a few races is crazy
Danny sat in the car the day it was finally fast, and Yuki got greedy and left points behind after his crash with Oscar.
Yuki also drove every single race this season, inlcuding when the car was already getting fast and Ricciard had his hand hurt
But the majority of the /r/Formula1 armchair experts told me clearly that Gasly would be beaten hard by Ocon, is an overrated terrible driver and even someone like Stroll was better than him.... I cannot wait until I getting flooded by reactions like "But Ocon is so unlucky and if... ", yea nice try but lady luck hates Alpine in general this season and both did dealing too much with having shit tier bad luck. Alpine has enough things to work on but the driver pairing is one of the last thing to being concerned about, simple as that.
If you wouldn't know any better you'd think that the top 3 on the right side are all rookies despite it only being Logan who's the rookie.
The fact Daniel has only got 12% less points than Yuki in what 4? 5? races is impressive.
Wait, Daniel within12% in how many races?
Rofl, Ricciardo with a 12% spread after how many races?
If it wasn’t obvious already…Sargeant needs to go.
>Oscar has earned a greater share of his team's points than Perez. > >Ferrari is the most balanced team with only a 4% spread. Meanwhile, Verstappen - Sainz over 23 races as team-mates 74%-26% ( 62-22 on points) Interesting...🤔
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Why what exactly?
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Almost every driver has. Tbh.
Hulk, Alonso deserve a shot at that RB.