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Norris wants to be the number 1 driver of his team. Is that simple. Each of the 3 top teams have an established leader and dynamic. Norris would be going into a team with a leader and current champion in his prime. Totally the wrong move to make right now.
Things aren’t dire at McLaren to make drastic moves anyways.
Things are the opposite of dire at McLaren.
If any driver wants to win the drivers championship being teammate with max right make it almost impossible, so yeah makes sense.
Then only way to beat max rn is to have a faster car.
A driver might stand a chance if Max moves into their team. The car will have been developed around their preferences and Max will need some time to get fully comfortable and up to speed.
Moving into Max’s team then yeah no one has a chance in a car that is developed exactly the way Max wants it.
The idea that cars are developed for any driver's preference is silly. Would a team make the car slower if their driver preferred it? No.
Teams make the fastest car they possibly can. The problem is that teams are often at the point of trading stability or controllability for lap time. Really good drivers can handle a less stable car. See Albon's recent description of what Max likes in a car. He described it as the sensitivity being turned to the max. Clearly you can extract lap time out of a car like that, but it's really hard to control.
I think a driver like Max or Alonso will quickly find the maximum pace of whatever car they are in. I'd give it less than 5 races before Max or even Leclerc to be up to pace in the McLaren.
So, the car does get developed to Max's ability, as he's able to control and extract the most performance out of a sharper car.
If he couldn't, like Perez can't, then RB would reign it in and not develop the car this way.
I do agree Max would be upto speed quickly in the Mclaren though, look how quick Piastri was almost straight away.
I'd argue with Max, Lando, Piastri, etc it doesn't matter who is in what car- they're all capable of competing with one another.
The lone one out rn is Perez and no disrespect to him but he isn't nearly as quick as the rest of them.
There's certainly a group of drivers that are competing at the top level, but Max (and maybe Lewis too) are a step in front.
If you moved Max into the Mclaren seat in FP1 of Bahrain, he'd finish above Lando in the championship come Abu Dhabi, the guys just on another level.
I’m biased, obviously. But I don’t particularly think that Lewis is any better than Fernando right now. I think they’re both slightly past their primes, but I found them both to be on a very similar level across the season. I would even argue that Fernando had more impressive individual moments than Lewis last season
I think Alonso had more highs and lows where Lewis was more constant last season.
Fernando was certainly driving well last year, but at the beginning of the season, the Aston was a much better car than the Merc.
Lewis did finish in front of Alonso in the standings too
Eh maybe, personally I doubt it. I don't think either get any wins but they're both competitive with each other.
Unless the 1st RB seat is filled by Lance and then it's Perez & Lance up front- then I think everyone is winning some races.
"I respect Max a lot. At the moment, in the Red Bull environment with his team, with his experience there, I don't think that many drivers can join Red Bull and beat Max. If you took Max out of Red Bull, maybe you [would] have a better chance." - Alonso.
Nico was always close enough for it to be believable. He was worse than Lewis, but not orders of magnitude worse. It was always clear that if Lewis had an off or unlucky year, Nico would be able to capitalise.
If Max has an off year, Checo still isn't going to beat him.
Yeah. 2014 was pretty close (ignore the final standings because of fucking double points) and he went on a great run at the end of 2015. Nico had it in him. Bottas and Perez don't. Max could've quit halfway through the season and still won the title even if you give everyone the points from Max not being there.
James Vowles just talked about it on a podcast. Nico learned a lot from Michael about how to optimize performance and used it to get close to Lewis. Then committed fully to it by giving up his family, friends and hobby in 2016 (still barely won and with better luck lol). Then instantly retired because it wasn't worth it.
I dont think Checo has that in him. I think hes good enough that if he committed everything to it, if max had an off year, he could get close. It just doesnt seem like he wants to and honestly can't say that's wrong. What Nico did was above his responsibilities to the team. Drivers arent expected to do that.
A lot of it is simply mentality and confidence. Nico always believed he could do it.
When Checo looks at the camera and says he’s going to bring it to Max, you can just tell he doesn’t feel it in his heart.
A shame as he’s a nice guy and a great driver, he just lacks the aggression needed to get into max’s head and win the support of the team
I don't think its that he thinks Verstappen is a superior driver. But in that specific car, at that specific team, even if Norris was on pure skill better it would be a tough ask.
I think a big point is that it would take a lot for Max to lose preferential treatment and the new driver be given priority. So you’re coming into a team with an established leader and have to go beyond just beating them to get put on their level in the eyes of the team
Even if Max doesn't get preferential treatment it's more difficult to go into a team the other driver has driven most of his career. He knows the team's systems, employees, is comfortable with the car, etc. Same reason that for a hypothetical Max/Lewis pairing I'd say Max would be the favorite if Lewis joins Red Bull, but Lewis would be the favorite if Max joined Mercedes
The point is Max is the team leader and has a car that has been built around him for 7 years and the choice of engineers and would probably throw his toys if he was bettered!
How many times do the drivers & engineers gotta say that the cars aren't built around the drivers & that they're built to go fast, the drivers gotta adapt to it? But you still keep parroting that bs
Probably because it's a legit position. If Max wasn't a redbull driver the car might be slightly different. I believe that's perfectly fair position. After Albon, Gasly and now Perez.
Just because drivers and engineers say something doesn't make it gospel. They're all media trained to bullshit.
The Dream Team was a perfect example of a car and team built completely around one driver. Then dual champion Schumacher literally convinced engineering mastermind Ross Brawn to leave Benetton with him and join him at Ferrari. Eventually under Jean Todt's leadership they made history, and Ferrar haven't been able to dominate like it since. Both Irvine and Barrichello were consenting number 2 drivers in a supporting role.
Except it's been said numerous times that Schumacher could just drive around the weaknesses of the cars and that thry needed Barrichello for his feedback. So the cars weren't necessarily always built with only Schumacher's input in mind but were a team effort.
It's the same with Red Bull. How can you say the cars were built around Verstappen, when there was a strech where he complained about their handling as well. Both RB drivers were vocal about how shit the car was to drive, but only one was fast. If you want another example, look to Norris in McLaren.
And I love how numerous ex drivers, engineers and other people who are part of F1 keep saying how this myth is untrue yet you have redditors who think they know better lol.
Bollox.....if Max joined mclaren as second driver he would be slower than lando, at least for a while.
Do you think checo is really that bad and that they don't listen to the drivers in put. Didn't Lewis complain his seat was too far forward last season and that it effected his ability to get the car round the track as fast as he could?
I really don’t think that Max would be much slower than Lando, if at all, right away. His biggest advantage is his adaptability and ability to find the limit right away. He won his first race in a Red Bull. He’d be fine.
Checo’s problems can pretty squarely be attributed to the mental side of the sport, not the physical side. It’s incredibly apparent if you listen to interviews with him and the team that Miami was a big turning point for him. Checo was running away from everybody who wasn’t Max but still got caught and passed by his teammate who started in 9th. He finishes 21 seconds ahead of the next non-red bull but still lost to his teammate with a massive advantage. That would do anyone’s head in. He even started seeing a sports psychologist after that.
Sure, he complained about it. But then James Allison said he doesn’t think the sitting position is a big factor in the problems Lewis has with the car. So I guess you’re answering your own question with a ‘no’ if that’s the example you want to use?
Well yeah, I guess the issue is a driver good enough to get that seat would probably have the calibre and desire (because of the immense challenge of max as a teammate) to be at another top team.
Time and time again max has been quite comprehensive against some pretty decent teammates (though many of them still lacked experience)
> If any driver wants to win the drivers championship being teammate with max right make it almost impossible, so yeah makes sense.
It's even harder to be WDC if you never beat no 2 at RB. Ever since he's been in F1, LN hasn't beaten the number 2 guy (even PG and AA finished higher even though they got half seasons in 2019).
In Max’s first six seasons, he only beat the 2nd Merc driver once in the WDC (and the time he did was by only 2 points). But Max was still able to beat Lewis without becoming his teammate.
> In Max’s first six seasons, he only beat the 2nd Merc driver once in the WDC (and the time he did was by only 2 points)
He beat VB in 2019 in his 5th season in F1. In his 4th season, he finished 2 points behind him.
In 2020 he finished 9 points behind VB but he had 5 retirements to VBs 1.
It's kinda clear that Max was **faster** than Bottas even in a **worse car**.
Put Norris in a **worse car** than RB and I am not sure he'll beat RB's second seat.
Norris was the 2nd highest scoring driver after McLaren's Austria upgrades. If he'd had a decent car the first half of the season, he could've finished 2nd behind Verstappen.
He could have easily waited. It is not like that his contract was up at end of this year and one good upgrade in 3 years shouldn’t be enough to sign extension. Even if not RB it is likely that a spot may open at Mercedes in 2026 and it would have also given him more time to evaluate where McLaren or Mercedes are going.
Since they didn't announce an end date of the contract, I'm pretty sure it has a lot of escape clauses. Same for Leclerc. If Verstappen should suddenly retire, Leclerc and Norris will be available to take his place.
Him committing now guarantees him a stronger voice in the development path of the car.
Not only that, but all the top teams already have a top dog who would have push development to suit them.
You’re bang on with things not being dire at McLaren. They have two young talented drivers. They had a decent season last year and the car seems to be trending in the right direction. Hopefully they can improve upon it this year. They were one of my favourite teams to watch last season.
Exactly. Going to RB next to Max would be a step down in his career. Yes he would probably get more podiums than at McLaren, but he would also never get a real chance to actually become world champion even if he has the best car.
If McLaren nails the regs suddenly Norris has a real chance. That is worth taking.
It's not a step up if you become the obvious number 2 and get beaten every week. Yes the team is a step up, overall for your career it'll be a step down.
I would argue going to another team to become the the obvious second driver would be less ambitious for a guy like Norris in his prime. And would definitely be worse for his career in terms of getting another seat.
Of course you can say he should go there believing he can beat Max in a team build around him, but even Norris doesn't seem to have faith in that.
I get what you're saying, but the fact is that nobody in F1 has had their reputation improved by being Max' teammate. It can pretty much just go one way.
I feel like him and Max would definitely have a couple wrecks just strictly do to how aggressive Max drives. Or he would end up besting Max and redBull just wouldn’t have that
The anti Max and anti rb narratives just wont stop i guess. Why would they crash? max had like 1 crash that was his fault in the last 2 years.
Seb was allowed to beat Webber, Ric was allowed to beat Seb, Max was allowed to beat Ric. What makes you think that Norris would not be allowed to beat Max.
People have this weird conspiracy theory that RB somehow support Max because they have some weird obsession with him, when they support him that much because he is probably the best driver on the grid.
The agenda is so weird, man. Want RB to give you priority over Max? Be better than him. Simple as that.
RBR wants *to win* and they just go for the dude who has best chances of it. I'd bet my kidney Horner likes Ricciardo more than Max but those preferences didn't matter cause Max was becoming better.
>max had like 1 crash that was his fault in the last 2 years.
Take a moment to think about how many years Max has absolutely no competition and you'll find out why.
He's definitely made huge steps on maturity, racecraft and awareness, however even listening to his radio Comms the last 2 years, it's apparent that he's a hot headed guy that won't leave a single point on the table. With enough competition (assuming Lando or Piastri can match his driving) it's the well known recipe for disaster.
It's happened before (not just with Max, see Leclerc and Seb, etc) it could happen again.
Unless Norris gets challenged on his position. Piastri is young, and frankly a bit more mistake prone than what we were promised, but he could turn things around.
What mistakes did Piastri make? I just recall him being slower on long run race pace than Lando, which isn’t surprising since he was a rookie. I thought overall he was outstanding and might go on to be one of the best drivers on the grid
What if anything Piastri should make Norris a bit nervous he shows amazing pace and a great willingness to learn what he doesn't know. The kid will be a force to be reckoned with. By the end of this season we're going to see Mclaren with two top drivers.
I hadn't actually read much criticism of "Norris's stance" but then I don't hang around in the Twitter/Instagram replies. The comments on the Race article seem to have drawn those folks in however.
> but then I don't hang around in the Twitter/Instagram replies
Like a sensible person. F1 twitter/instagram should not be entered without one of those nuclear fallout suits or it'll make your brain leak out of your ears from the extreme concentration of stupidity.
was about to say this;
It’s not about the f1 twitter fanbase
or any twitter fanbase in that regard
it’s just twitter
Deleted the app in 2021 and never looked back
Well the article also reads like a Reddit comment on roids.
> Alex Albon has admitted that the team builds a car that Verstappen wants/likes/can handle and it's up to his team-mate, whoever it is, to deal with that.
RB builds the fastest car possible and it is up to the drivers to adapt. I really doubt they'll go around building a slower car just so MV can be faster than team -mate. It would make no sense at all.
Of course, they develop the fastest car possible, but you would be a fool to think that they aren't developing the car to suit Max style. Drivers help develop the car. If Max prefers option 1 over 2. They will develop option 1
Ever team builds around the star, be it F1 or football.
Redbull has a young, 3-time WDC who has committed long-term to the team. It would be idiotic not to build around him.
Says who? You?
Setups don't necessary = to development. But most teams don't have the perfect car. Even redbull is taking in information all the time to improve the car. Cars aren't developed in a vacuum.
So if you can't change the setup because of an inherent design flaw with in the car, the driver has drive around it. And if the drivers you have can't extract the performance from your design, you going to change it.
No such thing as "we have the perfect our drivers just suck."
With football building around a star is only beneficial if the player is just much better than the rest of the team, because nowadays it's increasingly difficult given the talent level is increasing more and more.
I mean Max has said that RB19 is not easy to drive
https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/1008930/max-verstappen-red-bull-rb19-f1-nation-2023-sergio-perez/
The RB18 evolved from a somewhat understeery to a more oversteery car. So clearly it wasn't built around Max was it. And as it became more oversteery it also became faster.
I really doubt they have this absolute luxury as you claim
> If Max prefers option 1 over 2. They will develop option 1
Here's 3 options all just as fast you tell us what to build and we'll do it or something like that.
Has there ever been an easy F1 car to drive?
These are machines at the limit, not a Sunday driver.
>The RB18 evolved from a somewhat understeery to a more oversteery car. So clearly it wasn't built around Max was it. And as it became more oversteery it also became faster.
Max perfer an oversteery car.
>I really doubt they have this absolute luxury as you claim
You say that like drivers don't test parts during free practice.
Well when one says the car is **built around a driver** for me it means that the way the car is made benefits the driving style of that driver.
It's clear that RB when developping RB18, they tried to make the fastest car they could: oversteer or understeer be damned.
What you're saying is tunning the car. That's different. Of course the cars are tuned to driver prefs. But no, the car isn't built around Max.
Dude, you literally said that the RB18 developed into an oversteery car. How does that not benefit a guy who likes oversteer?
>It's clear that RB when developping RB18, they tried to make the fastest car they could: oversteer or understeer be damned.
They developed the RB18 without any real world data, and once they got it, they changed it in a way that benefited Max more than Checo, who likes understeer.
Your argument would hold some water if you were talking about RB16B or RB19, not a car developed without any real-world feedback to work on.
It's about car behaviour. Some drivers prefer understeer, others prefer oversteer for example. Prioritising one doesn't necessarily make the car faster or slower but can impact the speed a driver gets out of the car. The car that lets Max drive as fast as possible might not be the car that lets Checo drive as fast as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if RB built their car to maximize Verstappens' performance, but he has also shown that he's very good at adapting to whatever car he's given
A car that turns better is always faster than an understeering car. You can't make a car that won't turn turn faster with talent. You can make the back end not fly around and wreck an oversteer leaning car with talent and be faster.
> The car that lets Max drive as fast as possible might not be the car that lets Checo drive as fast as possible.
yeah but if the car that Checo drives as fast as possible means than neither him nor max will get to win, then RB won't go down that path.
There is also a bit of it on YouTube, but pretty minor. However, ever since I started using Reddit, stuff like that has become more apparent to me. The culture here is inherently different and a working downvote button does help a lot with that
Rather than focusing purely on No.1 status, I think Norris values the long-standing relationship he has with the team and the car.
It's not something anyone else can offer no matter how good Norris is.
Let's keep in mind that Piastri is a world-class talent that could easily develop into a mighty contender for the #1 driver spot, so I would agree with you. Norris also had a great time when Sainz was his teammate, and at that point the driver status was not an issue, they were able to collaborate and bring results together.
That’s because the team wasn’t nowhere near fighting for wins, that has changed now (if the performance from the second half of the last season continues), so with the higher ceilings, and both drivers aiming for their first win, tensions are sure to come.
It’s hysterical that the article references taking things out of context and then goes on to say “Alex Albon has admitted that the team builds a car that Verstappen wants/likes/can handle and it's up to his team-mate, whoever it is, to deal with that.”
I assume they’re going off of Albon’s High Performance podcast appearance. He was literally saying the opposite of that.
The media has created this narrative framework for their audiences that engineers can design cars to suit a driver style because it helps to tell a simple story and makes for good content, but every driver and actual engineer who doesn't have a financial incentive or auditioning for a Sky pundit job has said the exact opposite for 25 years now.
[No he wouldnt](https://racingnews365.com/alonso-exclusive-i-wouldnt-want-to-compete-against-verstappen-at-red-bull/amp)
Alonso is one of the only drivers who specifically said he wouldnt want to do that.
I don’t know why this is repeated ad nauseam when [Alonso literally said he wouldn’t want to be Verstappen’s teammate](https://racingnews365.com/alonso-exclusive-i-wouldnt-want-to-compete-against-verstappen-at-red-bull/amp).
He is also the only one of them I could realistically see adapting to the car fast enough to challenge Max. Hamilton might have the ability as well, but I don’t see him moving to RB in a million years.
Yeah. Lewis has a better chance than Alonso imo, I also just think Lewis is better than Alonso in general, but I don’t think he’ll leave Mercedes until he retires.
Maybe a move to McLaren is in the realm of possibility, but I don’t see him moving to Ferrari or RB.
Perez was seen as the best driver not in a top team when he got to Red Bull and the move was a huge step up for him.
Haven't exactly been great since, but everyone starts to look bad next to Max it seems.
He lost his seat to a 4 times world champion because Lawrence Stroll wanted a huge name next to his son in the rebranded Aston Martin. Ain't no shame in that.
And in a move that made F1 media go crazy I might add, with how unfair they thought it was.
And it's not like Red Bull was the only ones interested in him.
They were the only ones interested in him though. He quite literally had no options before RB threw him the lifeline. It was a huge talk in the paddock at the time that it was such as shame that no team was stepping forward to keep him in F1.
Williams had talks with him as reported back then. RB were not the only ones interested. McLaren wanted to put him in Indycar so they could give him a seat in F1 the year after if something opened up (which it did, but of course the seat went to Piastri instead). He had options as any sought after driver would.
He may have had talks with Williams but there was no seat there - Russell was there on a three year contract and Latifi's family were financing the team at that point, he was no more going anywhere than Stroll was at Racing Point/soon to be Aston (which is why Checo had lost his seat in the first place when they wanted to bring Seb in, despite the fact he had outperformed Lance).
There was no talk of McLaren wanting to take him back (they had already got rid of him once) into an F1 seat, so I have no idea where you've pulled that nonsense from because it's not true. At the end of 2020, Ricciardo was about to arrive for the start of a 3 year contract and Lando was going nowhere. There would never have been a seat for him the year after (which would have been 2022) because at that point they were expecting Ricciardo to fulfil his full 3 year contract.. Piastri wasn't even a remote consideration at the time so I've no idea why you're bring him up.
They might had a conversation about Indycar but Indycar is not F1.
You're just making shit up.
It was very much the talk of the paddock and by the media that Checo was on his way out of F1 before RB offered him the seat after his win. Everyone was saying how unfair the situation was.
There was talks of him going to Indycar with McLaren, that's exactly what I said. That would have been a move by McLaren that would make him the obvious replacement if a seat opened up on their F1 team.
But yeah, his future in F1 was uncertain for sure, that's why we had articles on articles in F1 media decrying how unfair that was.
Again, Indycar is not F1. You saying "it would make him the obvious replacement" doesn't mean it was anything they had promised to him. They didn't promise that. They were not expecting to have a seat the year after so they would not have made any such deal with him. Them potentially talking to him about Indycar was literally just them talking to him about Indycar.
As I said, Checo was on the way out of F1 before RB stepped in and offered him the seat because they had decided to let Albon go. They were quite literally his last chance saloon at the the time. He didn't decide to step up to a top team and take on Max because he didn't have a team to step up from.
Perez was on his way out of F1 because he had no seat for 2021 and Red Bull threw him a lifeline. He didn't take it because it was a step up from his current team. He didn't have a team.
It doest matter whether he's as good as Max or not if you go to Red Bull. It will take time to get used to the team, the car. Even if you manage that in say, 5 races, that's almost a quarter of the season, and if Red Bull are as dominant as they were last season, that's 5 wins to max. At that point of course the team are going to be favouring him in car direction, setups, team orders. And once its set that you're number two, its almost impossible to break that.
Very true. And also Max is one of the best drivers of all time, as Lando mentions in the interview. I think he makes an incredible point that even a Max Verstappen of a couple years ago could not go into the team as it is now and expect to compete and win against today’s Max. It doesn’t matter what your potential or innate skills are, because right now Max is at the top of his game in a team built around him. You can’t come in there and expect to develop as a driver and within the team to the point that you could beat him. Nobody could, not even Max himself
Yeah to beat someone entrenched in a team in your first season there you would have to be a *significantly* faster driver. And I don't think any driver on the grid will claim he's *significantly* faster than Verstappen in his current form.
Moving to Red Bull for anyone would realistically mean they have a real shot at the WDC after 3 or 4 seasons there, *if* their skill is equal to Verstappen.
A lot of these comments still seem to underestimate how insanely good Max is as a driver. It's not just about the Red Bull team being built around him. I would almost go as far as saying that Max is currently underrated as a driver by most fans. Now I know that sounds kinda crazy since basically everyone has him in their top 3 currently at the very least. But even if you'd rank him as the best driver right now, that doesn't paint the whole picture. Max is levels above the competition. We're talking about someone with as much talent as any other driver on the grid, if not more. But what sets Max apart is that no talent in the history of the sport has ever been nurtured so well, almost literally since he was born. Look at his karting record, no one comes even close. Look at the shit he pulls in sim racing. 19/22 wins, there's not a single person on the grid who could have matched that. Max is beating records set by Jim Clark, arguably the ultimate benchmark in this sport. Max as a driver is in a league of his own and Norris knows it.
Max in his current form is the best I've seen a driver, bar maybe Michael in 95/96/97. He's stringing 2012 Fernando or 2013 Seb level seasons back to back to back to back at this point. He's a ruthless metronomic robotic freak.
Yup, I always think if Red Bull had two Perez-level drivers this season (Perez is a pretty solid F1 driver), Red Bull would have been a top team but with a real shot of being 2nd or 3rd
I very highly doubt that, largely because Perez would not have had a complete meltdown if he only had to beat Perez.
His results at the start of the season were actually very strong, it was only when he tricked himself into thinking that the WDC was in contention and started putting pressure on himself that it all came crumbling down.
Confidence is worth at least a few tenths.
yeah it is very obvious. Look at how people agree when one f1 news website made the driver ranking and ranked Perez like 20/22 only ahead of Logan and DeVries, behind Magnussen, Zhou and people all agreed with that rating. It really feels like people are pushing that narrative of Perez being complete garbage so Max doesnt look as good in comparison. Like people cant wrap their head around Perez just being slightly below average and Max actually being that good.
Add to that everything said about the RB: most dominant car in history, 1s pace gap to the 2nd best car, Max just cruising all the time... when nothing we have seen that really supports this.
Also people are still somehow sure that Lewis and Alonso could go up against Max. Again not sure based on 2021 that Lewis could, i really dont think Lewis improved since then due to his age, while Max is only 26 now. And Alonso is already 42 and was beaten by Ocon last year. If he was still that good that should not have happened even with all the bad luck.
Also if you say that Max might be better than Hamilton, Senna or Schumacher that is somehow not acceptable. People will say: well max has to go up against wdc team mate first and they say Lewis had 3. Well 1 of those 3 only became wdc because Lewis lost against 2 of them and matched the other one, and one of those 3 only became wdc because he beat Lewis, yet it is somehow an argument in favor.
It brings a bit of a tear in my eye when I realise that Vettel is not even being mentioned in the conversation. The second half of his career was so off the first half that it is completely justified.
In car-adjusted metrics, Max was already the best driver on the grid in 2019. F1Metrics scored that 2019 season as par with Alonso’s 3 year peak and better than Hamilton’s. He has taken it to a new level since 2021. The drivers he destroys consistently “get good” again once they aren’t competing against him. In terms of all time driver ability, his only competition is Schumacher, and he’s likely clear of him too. Anything less than that is underrating him.
I wouldn't even describe Perez as below average. He's always been a solid mid-fielder. Even the team principals and drivers anonymously awarded him the tenth-best rating this year with all his flubbed races. Max has destroyed so many very good drivers, like Perez, Ricciardo, and Albon. Hamilton has obviously had better teammates throughout his career, but Hamilton didn't entirely dominate even Bottas, and he's only marginally stronger than Russell over the past two years.
That said, I will point out that it's misleading to say that Ocon beat Alonso last year. Alonso performed far better over the season and had some terrible luck. You're making the mistake of looking at results rather than context.
I respectfully disagree with every single point you said here.
No one is pushing that Perez is garbage so Max looks worse, we say he is garbage because he is complete garbage. Everyone who agreed Perez should be 20th also agreed Max is top 3 minimum. So that argument is nonsense. How can Perez fumble that many weekends in a row and get that many dnfs in a season with one of the most dominant cars ever and still be considered good?
That's the point though. If you had Perez and a better driver like say Sainz... Would it look so dominant? I'd argue no and it's only dominant because Max makes it look that way.
Perez isn't a trash driver all of a sudden. He was worse this year because he was pushing harder and harder to try and match max. But overall he's probably still an average ish F1 driver. He's had a solid career and we can't just discount that because Max is way better.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Max dominates a team mate thoroughly and everyone says they are trash. Team mate leaves for another team and suddenly is a good F1 driver again.
It's happened with albon, gasly and to a lesser extent Sainz. All of whom are older than Max. Everyone comes up with excuses for why they were terrible against verstappen but then good against other drivers. Instead maybe we should just accept the fact that they are decent drivers but max is significantly better than them or anyone else at the moment.
You sure you’re arguing with me? Because I didn’t say Max is shit. He’s one of the best drivers ever, but Perez was also shit this year and extremely underperformed. Whether that was because he tried to match Max or whatever else, he underperformed, simple as that. As for max, he absolutely rinsed everyone else and that’s no debate.
People aren't doing that on purpose, but they are pushing that narrative nonetheless. Classifying Max as a 'top 3 minimum' is technically not wrong but it's severely underrating him. Max is going down as the best EVER at this rate. Which a lot of people don't seem to like, so to wrap their head around what's happening they'll push narratives like Perez being trash, Norris not wanting to join Red Bull because Max is the established driver. This is a classic case of Occam's razor, the simplest explanation tends to be the closest to the truth. Max is the best, by miles.
He’s top 3 minimum because some people like Lewis or Alonso more, that’s it. He’s also one of the best formula 1 drivers ever. Perez also severely underperformed, and that’s it.
Yeah this is really all it is. Max is a legend he's showed he's an unstoppable force. I just think he's not the most likable so it's hard for people to come to accept he is the best more than likely.
He's utterly embarrassed a number of solid, midfield drivers in a way that no one else has in recent memory. Compare Verstappen vs. Perez and Hamilton vs. Bottas, for instance.
I think current Verstappen is likely the best driver in the modern era by a huge margin. He's also almost certainly the greatest driver of all time in terms of mechanical skill since the average skill and skill floor for F1 is massively higher now than it was even a decade ago.
What rock do you live under that you think people are underrating Max? Even the people I know that don't like him will easily admit that he is one of the most talented drivers ever in any form of motorsport. No one... anywhere... is underrating him as a driver.
There’s a very solid argument to be made that Max is the best ever, bar none. Rating him as “one of the most talented drivers ever”, would be underrating him.
I genuinely wonder what you would have said to someone raving in the same way about Lewis in 2020. I am certain you would have quickly said something about the car. The only obstacle to "statistical greatness" Lewis really faced that season was COVID.
I know this would be ifs buts and maybes, but I reckon Max would have won more races in that 2020 Merc than Lewis did, as in 2023 Max really won every race he had a reasonable chance of winning, which Lewis did not achieve in 2020. Let's look at every race in 2020 that Lewis didn't win:
\-Austria, beaten by Bottas in qualifying, fucked up with yellow flags in the race, Lewis defo could've won that (especially given the fact he won at the same track the week after)
\-70th anniversary GP, Mercedes went a bit conservative with the tyres, though this was also an absolute masterclass by Verstappen, so let's give Lewis the benefit of the doubt here and say he couldn't have won it.
\-Italian GP, Hamilton drove into a closed pitlane and got two penalty points for it, definitely his fault and he could have very much won that race on pace.
\-Russian GP, Hamilton got time penalties for doing practice starts outside the designated area, very much could have won it.
\-Sakhir, Hamilton had COVID, so he couldn't really have won that one
\-Abu Dhabi, Hamilton might have still been recovering from COVID, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
So that means that out of the six races that Hamilton didn't win in 2020, he could have very much won three, but didn't.
Now let's look at Verstappen's 2023:
\-Saudi GP, technical issue in qualifying, still finished second, but Perez had built up too much of a lead, couldn't really have won the race.
\-Baku GP, Verstappen was very unfortunate with the safety car, definitely not his fault that he didn't win it
\-Singapore GP, car wasn't fast enough, Verstappen couldn't really have won it.
So in conclusion, Max managed to win EVERY race in 2023 that he could, whereas Hamilton only won 11/14 races that he had the opportunity to win. This is what I mean with Verstappen being LEVELS above the competition. Hamilton's 2020 is one of the all time great seasons by an F1 driver yet it pales in comparison to what Max did in a car that wasn't better than the 2020 Mercedes. These achievements look similar on face value but when you look closely they don't compare at all. We are witnessing unprecedented greatness in Max, enjoy it while you can.
I know that it's at the very least premature to make that statement, but let's look at this the following way: is there anything that definitively makes him not the best ever? I'm not saying he definitively is the best ever, but he very well could be, in which case a lot of people are underrating him. And just fyi, the great Niki Lauda called Max the talent of the century, and Jenson Button called him the most talented driver he's ever seen, this opinion isn't as ridiculous as it might seem.
Do you hear yourself? He's still young and has tons of years of racing ahead of him in F1, Sports Cars, DTM... wherever he wants to go. But if we don't, at this point in his life, unequivocally declare him the best ever.... we're underrating him?
C'mon now
He was just stating the facts. Max has been with Red Bull forever and has relationships running all through the team and management. Not to mention he is completely in tune with the car. To recognize / admit that it would be very, very difficult to come in and take on Max under these circumstances is just speaking the truth.
People seem to forget Verstappen has the 3rd most Grands prix (162 races) with the same constructor after The Michael (180) and Hamiton (222). The level of chemistry and synergy between him and the team is really high. Their relationship brings a lot of stability to the team. By this point I'm sure the engineers and team back in MK know exactly what features of the car Max needs and it for sure motivates them knowing that they just have to deliver the car and Max will do the rest.
The way Norris argued his decision was a bit clumsy, not the decision itself. If he just had stated that his chances of becoming a world champion looked better to him at McLaren than being a number 2 at Red Bull and be done with it, then there wouldn't have been a discussion.
Maybe go and listen to what he actually said. The quote has, as usual, been taken out of context.
He stated that he wasn't afraid to take on Max, but that the decision he had to make was a lot more complicated than that. He would have been walking away from the team he loves and who love him (he is as emotionally attached to McLaren as Leclerc is to Ferrari), the team he feels have brought him up through his career and he feels immensely at home with and in his own words considers to be his family, just as everything they have worked so hard for is on the verge of coming good, Leaving "his team" to take on Max in what is very staunchly "Max's team", with the pressure of having to deliver against Max in that environment immediately or face the adverse judgement of the masses who would allow him next to no time to bed in. And doing all that just as the new regs were coming in, meaning RB might not even be the dominant or even the best team any more and there is even a chance that the car he would be leaving behind would be on an even footing if not better.
He says quite clearly in the interview that he had to weigh up everything he would be walking away from and decide if it was worth it or not, and he ultimately decided he would be best placed to take on Max, at least for the next few years, by staying where he was.
I would bet every penny I own that no other driver in a top 4 team would willingly walk away right now from their seat and into that RB second seat on the off-chance they may be able to wrest it away from Max either. Not Lewis, not Russell, not Leclerc, not Sainz, not Piastri. Piastri was even perfectly timed and placed to chase that seat when Checo's contract ended and yet he deliberately chose to take himself off the market. I doubt even Alonso would go for it, unless he was planning for it to be his final year in the sport and he figured he might as well do it for the hell of it as he would have nothing to lose. Why should Norris have to defend the fact that he doesn't want to either?
He should have left it at that: argue why the McLaren option is better, not why the Red Bull option is worse. That's just a snake pit you want to avoid. Bringing up the 2026 changes would be enough of an argument for sticking to McLaren vs switching to Red Bull.
I really don’t think the average person understands what a big deal it is to be THE GUY at a top/prestigious team.
Like Lando might have a better chance of beating Max at Red Bull but he’d be leaving a team that adores him and has nurtured him and believed in him since he was 17. It’s one thing if that team is a backmarker, but it’s Mclaren, who in current form can 100% develop to win races and championships, and who imo have the second most prestigious history in F1.
There’s a lot more to it than just the (valid) on-track element
It's not really about missing the point, it's more about a certain fanbase not wanting to hear or accept that point. And therefore they go full on defense mode and start shitting on Norris, it has little to do with being a critic. At least that's what happened in that thread on Reddit and social media.
Even Alonso said that facing Verstappen at red bull was the only challenge he wouldnt take.. that was in 2019 I believe.
What Norris said isn’t outrages.
Norris to redbull was never going to happen. Redbull doesn't have a history of two number 1s. I think if Merc was the top team and a spot was open Norris would've jumped at that opportunity. I think it's the reputation the team has built.
Redbull is Max's team. Mclaren is now Norris'; that's job security.
It's very bold to assume that Lando would become another number 1 at Red Bull
He knows he'd be number 2 and that's why he's denying the likely title shot he'd have at Red Bull which is fair.
Two number ones isn’t possible, one would always become the no.2, in this case Norris. Hence at the moment, his best option is betting on A) McLaren improving to become serious contenders and B) continuing to outpace Piastri. If this strategy fails he may still have another chance for a drive with RB.
Nobody wants to go to Red Bull, that would be suicide. I don’t care if you are Hamilton, Norris or Piastri, they all will loose to Max. The whole team is already build around him. He already has a lot of goodwill in the team, there is no way a new person could win against Max at this moment.
This.
Anyone who thinks any driver in the top 4 teams would walk willingly away from their current seat and into that second RB seat is living in fantasy-land. Not Lewis, not Russell, not Leclerc, not Sainz, not Piastri. Even Alonso said a few years ago that it was the one seat he wouldn't want. The only way I could see even him going for it now would be if he has already decided he was only doing one more year in F1 and the figured he might as well give it a go for the hell of it as he would have nothing to lose.
I keep seeing people saying nonsense things like "Piastri would have gone for it" and yet Piastri was perfectly positioned timing-wise to lobby for the seat at the end of 2024 when both his and Checo's contracts were due to end, and yet he made the conscious decision to re-sign with McLaren and therefore take himself out of the running. So no, he wouldn't have "gone for it" at this moment in time either.
How? How is a move to RB any different than a move to Mercedes? Both teams have dominated the last decade. Both teams have a top-tier multiple world champion, and those said champions have been at their team for quite some time (and justifyble get preferential treatment because of merit)
When it was announced that George would join Mercedes from 2022 onwards. Hardly anyone said that he would be a fool to step into Lewis' team or that he wouldn't get a fair treatment because of Lewis' status within the team. Although 2023 wasn't great for him, he can hold his own against Lewis. Apparently, he said that if Lewis wasn't his teammate, he would want to be Max's. Talk shit about George all you want, but wanting to challenge yourself against the best is a winner's mentality.
Lewis didn't shy away as rookie for two times WDC Alonso. Charles stepped into Ferrari while it was still Vettels team. Carlos and George joined their current teams when it's clearly Charles' and Lewis' team, respectively. If RB came to call any of them, all of them would take that seat in an instant.
Noone said that about George because he was at Williams, he had no shot at anything special there. People look at McLaren's late season form and see hope for wins maybe this season and they're building world class facilities.
As for the rest of that, carlos left a struggling McLaren for Ferrari against Charles who is good, but isn't max, and George left the 9th or 10th best team to join the one who just won their 8th straight WCC it doesn't matter who was there it was the right move
Not a single one of your examples is good. When George went to Mercedes he came from Williams. He had nothing to lose and everything to gain against the multiple time WDC. Same goes for Charles when he joined Ferrari. Of course it was the right move even if he got beaten it's still better than driving for Sauber. And Lewis went from GP2 to F1 with a team that was more his than Alonso's despite being a rookie. He was with McLaren since he was 13 and done thousands of km on track for them before he finally got a seat. It was also clear who Ron Dennis preferred with his famous quote "we aren't racing Kimi, we are racing Fernando" before the final few races of the season in 2007.
Lando is in a team that finished the season as the second fastest car on pace. He has a lot more reasons to stay in his team than all the drivers you mentioned.
Haven't seen anyone critique Norris' statement anywhere, quite the opposite actually. Most people found that he was grounded and mature during that whole mini interview.
Tbh I get Lando. He has a chance to build his own team and be successful with it but in his shoes as someone that wants to win I’m jumping in the fastest car straight away I don’t care if Jesus Christ is driving it. It may not be the smartest move but who really knows? They are all there to win and if they present you the best way to win in the most immediate way, you just take it. Any world champion would have done it in their prime
Really curious what happens with Sainz long-term. I could see a world where he realizes Leclerc is ultimately the #1 driver at Ferrari, and if he's gonna be a second driver, it might as well be at the best team, moving back into the Red Bull family. He's been competitive with Leclerc over a season because of his consistency, a perfect 2nd driver to Max if he buys in. His only options to be a #1 driver would be if Alonso ever decided to retire, or a gamble on Audi.
Norris knows is not as fast as Max. We all know it too. Norris is very good but simply not that type of good. There is no shame in that. Max will most likely win at least 4-5 titles… only a handful of people in history of F1 belongs to that elite group.
Max is good enough that even if you are better it's going to be marginal, and a marginal difference in ability is hidden by working better with the team.
Red Bull is Team Max. Whilst I'm sure there a chunk of the team that don't care who is driving as long as they are winning, there are plenty of members of that team are very, very all in on Max and anyone trying to challenge him would not be welcomed. That will make life very difficult for them and that would be enough to overhaul any marginal ability difference.
Not to mention the bigger amount of the team that just exceptionally well with Max because his been there for years and it just works.
The comparisons are poor. Hamilton was a rookie (and somewhat regarded as the future of the team). Leclerc was a Ferrari academy driver, groomed to be the number one and Vettel was not Max. George was a Merc Academy driver, groomed to be the successor to Lewis and probably did not except Lewis to be sticking around as long as he has been.
Lando is not a Red Bull Driver. Max is not near retirement, nor is he clearly on the wane ability wise. The only real relationship he has at Red Bull is a friendship with Max and guess what. That will go to the shitter the moment Lando ever has the audacity to be faster then him as we have seen countless times before.
So there is zero point in him going to Red Bull. Bank on Mclaren developing a car able to compete with RB is the only realistic way to win.
I just hope people give the same break to Perez.
Leaving the Best Driver discussion aside. I don't think there is any driver right now who can beat Max in a Red bull. Gerenational talent, trained since he was in diapers, currently in his prime, In a team build around him where he has great relationships, already breaking lots of records, future contender for goat discussion. People don't understando how big of a Monster Max is right now driving for that team.
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Norris wants to be the number 1 driver of his team. Is that simple. Each of the 3 top teams have an established leader and dynamic. Norris would be going into a team with a leader and current champion in his prime. Totally the wrong move to make right now. Things aren’t dire at McLaren to make drastic moves anyways.
Things are the opposite of dire at McLaren. If any driver wants to win the drivers championship being teammate with max right make it almost impossible, so yeah makes sense. Then only way to beat max rn is to have a faster car.
A driver might stand a chance if Max moves into their team. The car will have been developed around their preferences and Max will need some time to get fully comfortable and up to speed. Moving into Max’s team then yeah no one has a chance in a car that is developed exactly the way Max wants it.
The idea that cars are developed for any driver's preference is silly. Would a team make the car slower if their driver preferred it? No. Teams make the fastest car they possibly can. The problem is that teams are often at the point of trading stability or controllability for lap time. Really good drivers can handle a less stable car. See Albon's recent description of what Max likes in a car. He described it as the sensitivity being turned to the max. Clearly you can extract lap time out of a car like that, but it's really hard to control. I think a driver like Max or Alonso will quickly find the maximum pace of whatever car they are in. I'd give it less than 5 races before Max or even Leclerc to be up to pace in the McLaren.
So, the car does get developed to Max's ability, as he's able to control and extract the most performance out of a sharper car. If he couldn't, like Perez can't, then RB would reign it in and not develop the car this way. I do agree Max would be upto speed quickly in the Mclaren though, look how quick Piastri was almost straight away.
I'd argue with Max, Lando, Piastri, etc it doesn't matter who is in what car- they're all capable of competing with one another. The lone one out rn is Perez and no disrespect to him but he isn't nearly as quick as the rest of them.
There's certainly a group of drivers that are competing at the top level, but Max (and maybe Lewis too) are a step in front. If you moved Max into the Mclaren seat in FP1 of Bahrain, he'd finish above Lando in the championship come Abu Dhabi, the guys just on another level.
I’m biased, obviously. But I don’t particularly think that Lewis is any better than Fernando right now. I think they’re both slightly past their primes, but I found them both to be on a very similar level across the season. I would even argue that Fernando had more impressive individual moments than Lewis last season
I think Alonso had more highs and lows where Lewis was more constant last season. Fernando was certainly driving well last year, but at the beginning of the season, the Aston was a much better car than the Merc. Lewis did finish in front of Alonso in the standings too
Eh maybe, personally I doubt it. I don't think either get any wins but they're both competitive with each other. Unless the 1st RB seat is filled by Lance and then it's Perez & Lance up front- then I think everyone is winning some races.
I just can’t imagine having that mentality as a pro racing driver, believing that someone is better than you, and it’s not because of the car
"I respect Max a lot. At the moment, in the Red Bull environment with his team, with his experience there, I don't think that many drivers can join Red Bull and beat Max. If you took Max out of Red Bull, maybe you [would] have a better chance." - Alonso.
They might all say that they think they can win the wdc but they know that they cant.
Good old bottas saying every year that it was the year he was gonna bring it to lewis...
And Checo saying he was going to bring it to Max.
And Nico saying he would ..., wait, he actually did it!
Nico was always close enough for it to be believable. He was worse than Lewis, but not orders of magnitude worse. It was always clear that if Lewis had an off or unlucky year, Nico would be able to capitalise. If Max has an off year, Checo still isn't going to beat him.
Yeah. 2014 was pretty close (ignore the final standings because of fucking double points) and he went on a great run at the end of 2015. Nico had it in him. Bottas and Perez don't. Max could've quit halfway through the season and still won the title even if you give everyone the points from Max not being there.
What was the double points rule? Was it double points for the last race? Why was that a bad idea?
James Vowles just talked about it on a podcast. Nico learned a lot from Michael about how to optimize performance and used it to get close to Lewis. Then committed fully to it by giving up his family, friends and hobby in 2016 (still barely won and with better luck lol). Then instantly retired because it wasn't worth it. I dont think Checo has that in him. I think hes good enough that if he committed everything to it, if max had an off year, he could get close. It just doesnt seem like he wants to and honestly can't say that's wrong. What Nico did was above his responsibilities to the team. Drivers arent expected to do that.
A lot of it is simply mentality and confidence. Nico always believed he could do it. When Checo looks at the camera and says he’s going to bring it to Max, you can just tell he doesn’t feel it in his heart. A shame as he’s a nice guy and a great driver, he just lacks the aggression needed to get into max’s head and win the support of the team
I respect that the man did it and then said fuck it, i'm here for my family now. Good lad
Definitely this year.
I don't think its that he thinks Verstappen is a superior driver. But in that specific car, at that specific team, even if Norris was on pure skill better it would be a tough ask.
I think a big point is that it would take a lot for Max to lose preferential treatment and the new driver be given priority. So you’re coming into a team with an established leader and have to go beyond just beating them to get put on their level in the eyes of the team
Even if Max doesn't get preferential treatment it's more difficult to go into a team the other driver has driven most of his career. He knows the team's systems, employees, is comfortable with the car, etc. Same reason that for a hypothetical Max/Lewis pairing I'd say Max would be the favorite if Lewis joins Red Bull, but Lewis would be the favorite if Max joined Mercedes
I think this is a great point. It's not the RBR wouldn't support their other driver, it's that Max has decade long relationships in that team.
The point is Max is the team leader and has a car that has been built around him for 7 years and the choice of engineers and would probably throw his toys if he was bettered!
How many times do the drivers & engineers gotta say that the cars aren't built around the drivers & that they're built to go fast, the drivers gotta adapt to it? But you still keep parroting that bs
It is a coping mechanism for people whose favourite driver isn’t winning.
Probably because it's a legit position. If Max wasn't a redbull driver the car might be slightly different. I believe that's perfectly fair position. After Albon, Gasly and now Perez.
Just because drivers and engineers say something doesn't make it gospel. They're all media trained to bullshit. The Dream Team was a perfect example of a car and team built completely around one driver. Then dual champion Schumacher literally convinced engineering mastermind Ross Brawn to leave Benetton with him and join him at Ferrari. Eventually under Jean Todt's leadership they made history, and Ferrar haven't been able to dominate like it since. Both Irvine and Barrichello were consenting number 2 drivers in a supporting role.
Except it's been said numerous times that Schumacher could just drive around the weaknesses of the cars and that thry needed Barrichello for his feedback. So the cars weren't necessarily always built with only Schumacher's input in mind but were a team effort. It's the same with Red Bull. How can you say the cars were built around Verstappen, when there was a strech where he complained about their handling as well. Both RB drivers were vocal about how shit the car was to drive, but only one was fast. If you want another example, look to Norris in McLaren. And I love how numerous ex drivers, engineers and other people who are part of F1 keep saying how this myth is untrue yet you have redditors who think they know better lol.
If Perez is asking to have upgrades taken off I would say its pretty cut and dry that the development is not a team effort.
Bollox.....if Max joined mclaren as second driver he would be slower than lando, at least for a while. Do you think checo is really that bad and that they don't listen to the drivers in put. Didn't Lewis complain his seat was too far forward last season and that it effected his ability to get the car round the track as fast as he could?
I really don’t think that Max would be much slower than Lando, if at all, right away. His biggest advantage is his adaptability and ability to find the limit right away. He won his first race in a Red Bull. He’d be fine. Checo’s problems can pretty squarely be attributed to the mental side of the sport, not the physical side. It’s incredibly apparent if you listen to interviews with him and the team that Miami was a big turning point for him. Checo was running away from everybody who wasn’t Max but still got caught and passed by his teammate who started in 9th. He finishes 21 seconds ahead of the next non-red bull but still lost to his teammate with a massive advantage. That would do anyone’s head in. He even started seeing a sports psychologist after that. Sure, he complained about it. But then James Allison said he doesn’t think the sitting position is a big factor in the problems Lewis has with the car. So I guess you’re answering your own question with a ‘no’ if that’s the example you want to use?
Let's see someone challenge him with an equal car first before we make that assumption.
Well yeah, I guess the issue is a driver good enough to get that seat would probably have the calibre and desire (because of the immense challenge of max as a teammate) to be at another top team. Time and time again max has been quite comprehensive against some pretty decent teammates (though many of them still lacked experience)
we literally saw in 2021 that Max seems to be the quicker driver, really shouldnt be a hot take
Yeah, I’d love to see Max, Fernando, Lewis and Lando give it a go in the RB with a decent amount of training for non-RB drivers.
In a Haas.
Enters Piastri
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> If any driver wants to win the drivers championship being teammate with max right make it almost impossible, so yeah makes sense. It's even harder to be WDC if you never beat no 2 at RB. Ever since he's been in F1, LN hasn't beaten the number 2 guy (even PG and AA finished higher even though they got half seasons in 2019).
In Max’s first six seasons, he only beat the 2nd Merc driver once in the WDC (and the time he did was by only 2 points). But Max was still able to beat Lewis without becoming his teammate.
> In Max’s first six seasons, he only beat the 2nd Merc driver once in the WDC (and the time he did was by only 2 points) He beat VB in 2019 in his 5th season in F1. In his 4th season, he finished 2 points behind him. In 2020 he finished 9 points behind VB but he had 5 retirements to VBs 1. It's kinda clear that Max was **faster** than Bottas even in a **worse car**. Put Norris in a **worse car** than RB and I am not sure he'll beat RB's second seat.
Norris was the 2nd highest scoring driver after McLaren's Austria upgrades. If he'd had a decent car the first half of the season, he could've finished 2nd behind Verstappen.
Yeah. People seem to miss the point that Lando believes McLaren can BEAT Red Bull and *that's* what he wants to do.
He could have easily waited. It is not like that his contract was up at end of this year and one good upgrade in 3 years shouldn’t be enough to sign extension. Even if not RB it is likely that a spot may open at Mercedes in 2026 and it would have also given him more time to evaluate where McLaren or Mercedes are going.
Since they didn't announce an end date of the contract, I'm pretty sure it has a lot of escape clauses. Same for Leclerc. If Verstappen should suddenly retire, Leclerc and Norris will be available to take his place.
Him committing now guarantees him a stronger voice in the development path of the car. Not only that, but all the top teams already have a top dog who would have push development to suit them.
You’re bang on with things not being dire at McLaren. They have two young talented drivers. They had a decent season last year and the car seems to be trending in the right direction. Hopefully they can improve upon it this year. They were one of my favourite teams to watch last season.
Exactly. Going to RB next to Max would be a step down in his career. Yes he would probably get more podiums than at McLaren, but he would also never get a real chance to actually become world champion even if he has the best car. If McLaren nails the regs suddenly Norris has a real chance. That is worth taking.
Button and Barichello at Tenagra Brawn, his wallet wide!
That’s not what a “step down” means, going to the best team is obviously a step up.
It's not a step up if you become the obvious number 2 and get beaten every week. Yes the team is a step up, overall for your career it'll be a step down.
Well that’s up to him though, I can understand hoping McLaren gets the best car, but you’ve got to be ambitious while you’re in your prime
I would argue going to another team to become the the obvious second driver would be less ambitious for a guy like Norris in his prime. And would definitely be worse for his career in terms of getting another seat. Of course you can say he should go there believing he can beat Max in a team build around him, but even Norris doesn't seem to have faith in that. I get what you're saying, but the fact is that nobody in F1 has had their reputation improved by being Max' teammate. It can pretty much just go one way.
I think Oscar might finish above him this year.
Agreed. Piastri showed everyone he can be just as fast or faster. More experience will help him well.
Piastri would like a word.
I feel like him and Max would definitely have a couple wrecks just strictly do to how aggressive Max drives. Or he would end up besting Max and redBull just wouldn’t have that
The anti Max and anti rb narratives just wont stop i guess. Why would they crash? max had like 1 crash that was his fault in the last 2 years. Seb was allowed to beat Webber, Ric was allowed to beat Seb, Max was allowed to beat Ric. What makes you think that Norris would not be allowed to beat Max. People have this weird conspiracy theory that RB somehow support Max because they have some weird obsession with him, when they support him that much because he is probably the best driver on the grid.
The agenda is so weird, man. Want RB to give you priority over Max? Be better than him. Simple as that. RBR wants *to win* and they just go for the dude who has best chances of it. I'd bet my kidney Horner likes Ricciardo more than Max but those preferences didn't matter cause Max was becoming better.
>max had like 1 crash that was his fault in the last 2 years. Take a moment to think about how many years Max has absolutely no competition and you'll find out why. He's definitely made huge steps on maturity, racecraft and awareness, however even listening to his radio Comms the last 2 years, it's apparent that he's a hot headed guy that won't leave a single point on the table. With enough competition (assuming Lando or Piastri can match his driving) it's the well known recipe for disaster. It's happened before (not just with Max, see Leclerc and Seb, etc) it could happen again.
Or, you know, Max would best him instead?
Max & Charles are the 2 most aggressive drivers in the league, but they never had a wreck together
Unless Norris gets challenged on his position. Piastri is young, and frankly a bit more mistake prone than what we were promised, but he could turn things around.
What mistakes did Piastri make? I just recall him being slower on long run race pace than Lando, which isn’t surprising since he was a rookie. I thought overall he was outstanding and might go on to be one of the best drivers on the grid
Mistake prone? You are just tossing works out. Piastri wasn't mistake prone, his only issue was tire management.
What if anything Piastri should make Norris a bit nervous he shows amazing pace and a great willingness to learn what he doesn't know. The kid will be a force to be reckoned with. By the end of this season we're going to see Mclaren with two top drivers.
I think Norris made more mistakes than Piastri over the year and especially after their cars are updated. Nothing catastrophic for both
I hadn't actually read much criticism of "Norris's stance" but then I don't hang around in the Twitter/Instagram replies. The comments on the Race article seem to have drawn those folks in however.
> but then I don't hang around in the Twitter/Instagram replies Like a sensible person. F1 twitter/instagram should not be entered without one of those nuclear fallout suits or it'll make your brain leak out of your ears from the extreme concentration of stupidity.
I mean, Reddit does that too
Literally, idk why people act like Reddit isn’t like almost every other social platform out. The voting system just helps weed through the nonsense
Ngl, just stay away from F1 social media in general on all sites. Shit’s just cancer.
tbh I don’t know of any fandom’s Twitter that isn’t absolute trash
>tbh I don’t know of any ~~fandom’s~~ Twitter that isn’t absolute trash Ftfy
was about to say this; It’s not about the f1 twitter fanbase or any twitter fanbase in that regard it’s just twitter Deleted the app in 2021 and never looked back
Twitter delenda est
Well the article also reads like a Reddit comment on roids. > Alex Albon has admitted that the team builds a car that Verstappen wants/likes/can handle and it's up to his team-mate, whoever it is, to deal with that. RB builds the fastest car possible and it is up to the drivers to adapt. I really doubt they'll go around building a slower car just so MV can be faster than team -mate. It would make no sense at all.
I didn't think Albom actually said it like that
All teams build the fastest car possible then the drivers have to adapt. Cars aren’t made for drivers cars are set up for drivers
Of course, they develop the fastest car possible, but you would be a fool to think that they aren't developing the car to suit Max style. Drivers help develop the car. If Max prefers option 1 over 2. They will develop option 1 Ever team builds around the star, be it F1 or football. Redbull has a young, 3-time WDC who has committed long-term to the team. It would be idiotic not to build around him.
>developing the car to suit Max style cars arent suits. they arent tailor made lmao.
And yet every weekend we hear on radios drivers asking for changes on setup. You're blatantly wrong against that analogy.
setups =/= car development setups are track and condition specific, while tracks can be grouped together when it comes to specs.
Says who? You? Setups don't necessary = to development. But most teams don't have the perfect car. Even redbull is taking in information all the time to improve the car. Cars aren't developed in a vacuum. So if you can't change the setup because of an inherent design flaw with in the car, the driver has drive around it. And if the drivers you have can't extract the performance from your design, you going to change it. No such thing as "we have the perfect our drivers just suck."
With football building around a star is only beneficial if the player is just much better than the rest of the team, because nowadays it's increasingly difficult given the talent level is increasing more and more.
I mean Max has said that RB19 is not easy to drive https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/1008930/max-verstappen-red-bull-rb19-f1-nation-2023-sergio-perez/ The RB18 evolved from a somewhat understeery to a more oversteery car. So clearly it wasn't built around Max was it. And as it became more oversteery it also became faster. I really doubt they have this absolute luxury as you claim > If Max prefers option 1 over 2. They will develop option 1 Here's 3 options all just as fast you tell us what to build and we'll do it or something like that.
Has there ever been an easy F1 car to drive? These are machines at the limit, not a Sunday driver. >The RB18 evolved from a somewhat understeery to a more oversteery car. So clearly it wasn't built around Max was it. And as it became more oversteery it also became faster. Max perfer an oversteery car. >I really doubt they have this absolute luxury as you claim You say that like drivers don't test parts during free practice.
> Max perfer an oversteery car. Correct yet in development it came out as more understeery.
You do understand that the RB18 was a new regulation car that was developed without any real-world driver feedback?
Well when one says the car is **built around a driver** for me it means that the way the car is made benefits the driving style of that driver. It's clear that RB when developping RB18, they tried to make the fastest car they could: oversteer or understeer be damned. What you're saying is tunning the car. That's different. Of course the cars are tuned to driver prefs. But no, the car isn't built around Max.
Dude, you literally said that the RB18 developed into an oversteery car. How does that not benefit a guy who likes oversteer? >It's clear that RB when developping RB18, they tried to make the fastest car they could: oversteer or understeer be damned. They developed the RB18 without any real world data, and once they got it, they changed it in a way that benefited Max more than Checo, who likes understeer. Your argument would hold some water if you were talking about RB16B or RB19, not a car developed without any real-world feedback to work on.
It's about car behaviour. Some drivers prefer understeer, others prefer oversteer for example. Prioritising one doesn't necessarily make the car faster or slower but can impact the speed a driver gets out of the car. The car that lets Max drive as fast as possible might not be the car that lets Checo drive as fast as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if RB built their car to maximize Verstappens' performance, but he has also shown that he's very good at adapting to whatever car he's given
A car that turns better is always faster than an understeering car. You can't make a car that won't turn turn faster with talent. You can make the back end not fly around and wreck an oversteer leaning car with talent and be faster.
> The car that lets Max drive as fast as possible might not be the car that lets Checo drive as fast as possible. yeah but if the car that Checo drives as fast as possible means than neither him nor max will get to win, then RB won't go down that path.
There is also a bit of it on YouTube, but pretty minor. However, ever since I started using Reddit, stuff like that has become more apparent to me. The culture here is inherently different and a working downvote button does help a lot with that
Rather than focusing purely on No.1 status, I think Norris values the long-standing relationship he has with the team and the car. It's not something anyone else can offer no matter how good Norris is.
I think he also saw what happened to Daniel and doesn’t want to put himself in a position where it could happen to him.
Let's keep in mind that Piastri is a world-class talent that could easily develop into a mighty contender for the #1 driver spot, so I would agree with you. Norris also had a great time when Sainz was his teammate, and at that point the driver status was not an issue, they were able to collaborate and bring results together.
That’s because the team wasn’t nowhere near fighting for wins, that has changed now (if the performance from the second half of the last season continues), so with the higher ceilings, and both drivers aiming for their first win, tensions are sure to come.
It’s hysterical that the article references taking things out of context and then goes on to say “Alex Albon has admitted that the team builds a car that Verstappen wants/likes/can handle and it's up to his team-mate, whoever it is, to deal with that.” I assume they’re going off of Albon’s High Performance podcast appearance. He was literally saying the opposite of that.
The media has created this narrative framework for their audiences that engineers can design cars to suit a driver style because it helps to tell a simple story and makes for good content, but every driver and actual engineer who doesn't have a financial incentive or auditioning for a Sky pundit job has said the exact opposite for 25 years now.
Let´s face it. The only drivers willing/forced to be Max´s teammate are the ones who have no reputation to lose or have no other/better options.
> who have no reputation to lose or have no other/better options. And also want to win a few races.
Alonso is the only one of the top drivers who would move to RB
[No he wouldnt](https://racingnews365.com/alonso-exclusive-i-wouldnt-want-to-compete-against-verstappen-at-red-bull/amp) Alonso is one of the only drivers who specifically said he wouldnt want to do that.
I don’t know why this is repeated ad nauseam when [Alonso literally said he wouldn’t want to be Verstappen’s teammate](https://racingnews365.com/alonso-exclusive-i-wouldnt-want-to-compete-against-verstappen-at-red-bull/amp).
He is also the only one of them I could realistically see adapting to the car fast enough to challenge Max. Hamilton might have the ability as well, but I don’t see him moving to RB in a million years.
Yeah. Lewis has a better chance than Alonso imo, I also just think Lewis is better than Alonso in general, but I don’t think he’ll leave Mercedes until he retires. Maybe a move to McLaren is in the realm of possibility, but I don’t see him moving to Ferrari or RB.
Perez was seen as the best driver not in a top team when he got to Red Bull and the move was a huge step up for him. Haven't exactly been great since, but everyone starts to look bad next to Max it seems.
actually, it was the only step available for him....he was fired.
He lost his seat to a 4 times world champion because Lawrence Stroll wanted a huge name next to his son in the rebranded Aston Martin. Ain't no shame in that. And in a move that made F1 media go crazy I might add, with how unfair they thought it was. And it's not like Red Bull was the only ones interested in him.
They were the only ones interested in him though. He quite literally had no options before RB threw him the lifeline. It was a huge talk in the paddock at the time that it was such as shame that no team was stepping forward to keep him in F1.
Williams had talks with him as reported back then. RB were not the only ones interested. McLaren wanted to put him in Indycar so they could give him a seat in F1 the year after if something opened up (which it did, but of course the seat went to Piastri instead). He had options as any sought after driver would.
He may have had talks with Williams but there was no seat there - Russell was there on a three year contract and Latifi's family were financing the team at that point, he was no more going anywhere than Stroll was at Racing Point/soon to be Aston (which is why Checo had lost his seat in the first place when they wanted to bring Seb in, despite the fact he had outperformed Lance). There was no talk of McLaren wanting to take him back (they had already got rid of him once) into an F1 seat, so I have no idea where you've pulled that nonsense from because it's not true. At the end of 2020, Ricciardo was about to arrive for the start of a 3 year contract and Lando was going nowhere. There would never have been a seat for him the year after (which would have been 2022) because at that point they were expecting Ricciardo to fulfil his full 3 year contract.. Piastri wasn't even a remote consideration at the time so I've no idea why you're bring him up. They might had a conversation about Indycar but Indycar is not F1. You're just making shit up. It was very much the talk of the paddock and by the media that Checo was on his way out of F1 before RB offered him the seat after his win. Everyone was saying how unfair the situation was.
There was talks of him going to Indycar with McLaren, that's exactly what I said. That would have been a move by McLaren that would make him the obvious replacement if a seat opened up on their F1 team. But yeah, his future in F1 was uncertain for sure, that's why we had articles on articles in F1 media decrying how unfair that was.
Again, Indycar is not F1. You saying "it would make him the obvious replacement" doesn't mean it was anything they had promised to him. They didn't promise that. They were not expecting to have a seat the year after so they would not have made any such deal with him. Them potentially talking to him about Indycar was literally just them talking to him about Indycar. As I said, Checo was on the way out of F1 before RB stepped in and offered him the seat because they had decided to let Albon go. They were quite literally his last chance saloon at the the time. He didn't decide to step up to a top team and take on Max because he didn't have a team to step up from.
Perez was on his way out of F1 because he had no seat for 2021 and Red Bull threw him a lifeline. He didn't take it because it was a step up from his current team. He didn't have a team.
People were kidding themselves about Perez though. He was not suddenly a much better driver because he drove the pink merc for a season.
So are we gonna see Sainz back to Red Bull stable in a shock move?
I'd love to see the toro rosso bros together again, albon's more likely to do it tho
It doest matter whether he's as good as Max or not if you go to Red Bull. It will take time to get used to the team, the car. Even if you manage that in say, 5 races, that's almost a quarter of the season, and if Red Bull are as dominant as they were last season, that's 5 wins to max. At that point of course the team are going to be favouring him in car direction, setups, team orders. And once its set that you're number two, its almost impossible to break that.
Yep. Literally what Max’s teammates have described. Albon was the most recent one to describe this dynamic in detail.
Very true. And also Max is one of the best drivers of all time, as Lando mentions in the interview. I think he makes an incredible point that even a Max Verstappen of a couple years ago could not go into the team as it is now and expect to compete and win against today’s Max. It doesn’t matter what your potential or innate skills are, because right now Max is at the top of his game in a team built around him. You can’t come in there and expect to develop as a driver and within the team to the point that you could beat him. Nobody could, not even Max himself
Yeah to beat someone entrenched in a team in your first season there you would have to be a *significantly* faster driver. And I don't think any driver on the grid will claim he's *significantly* faster than Verstappen in his current form. Moving to Red Bull for anyone would realistically mean they have a real shot at the WDC after 3 or 4 seasons there, *if* their skill is equal to Verstappen.
A lot of these comments still seem to underestimate how insanely good Max is as a driver. It's not just about the Red Bull team being built around him. I would almost go as far as saying that Max is currently underrated as a driver by most fans. Now I know that sounds kinda crazy since basically everyone has him in their top 3 currently at the very least. But even if you'd rank him as the best driver right now, that doesn't paint the whole picture. Max is levels above the competition. We're talking about someone with as much talent as any other driver on the grid, if not more. But what sets Max apart is that no talent in the history of the sport has ever been nurtured so well, almost literally since he was born. Look at his karting record, no one comes even close. Look at the shit he pulls in sim racing. 19/22 wins, there's not a single person on the grid who could have matched that. Max is beating records set by Jim Clark, arguably the ultimate benchmark in this sport. Max as a driver is in a league of his own and Norris knows it.
Max in his current form is the best I've seen a driver, bar maybe Michael in 95/96/97. He's stringing 2012 Fernando or 2013 Seb level seasons back to back to back to back at this point. He's a ruthless metronomic robotic freak.
Yup, I always think if Red Bull had two Perez-level drivers this season (Perez is a pretty solid F1 driver), Red Bull would have been a top team but with a real shot of being 2nd or 3rd
I very highly doubt that, largely because Perez would not have had a complete meltdown if he only had to beat Perez. His results at the start of the season were actually very strong, it was only when he tricked himself into thinking that the WDC was in contention and started putting pressure on himself that it all came crumbling down. Confidence is worth at least a few tenths.
Possibly, but max is clearly far better than him
yeah it is very obvious. Look at how people agree when one f1 news website made the driver ranking and ranked Perez like 20/22 only ahead of Logan and DeVries, behind Magnussen, Zhou and people all agreed with that rating. It really feels like people are pushing that narrative of Perez being complete garbage so Max doesnt look as good in comparison. Like people cant wrap their head around Perez just being slightly below average and Max actually being that good. Add to that everything said about the RB: most dominant car in history, 1s pace gap to the 2nd best car, Max just cruising all the time... when nothing we have seen that really supports this. Also people are still somehow sure that Lewis and Alonso could go up against Max. Again not sure based on 2021 that Lewis could, i really dont think Lewis improved since then due to his age, while Max is only 26 now. And Alonso is already 42 and was beaten by Ocon last year. If he was still that good that should not have happened even with all the bad luck. Also if you say that Max might be better than Hamilton, Senna or Schumacher that is somehow not acceptable. People will say: well max has to go up against wdc team mate first and they say Lewis had 3. Well 1 of those 3 only became wdc because Lewis lost against 2 of them and matched the other one, and one of those 3 only became wdc because he beat Lewis, yet it is somehow an argument in favor.
It brings a bit of a tear in my eye when I realise that Vettel is not even being mentioned in the conversation. The second half of his career was so off the first half that it is completely justified.
2020 was just too awful imo
In car-adjusted metrics, Max was already the best driver on the grid in 2019. F1Metrics scored that 2019 season as par with Alonso’s 3 year peak and better than Hamilton’s. He has taken it to a new level since 2021. The drivers he destroys consistently “get good” again once they aren’t competing against him. In terms of all time driver ability, his only competition is Schumacher, and he’s likely clear of him too. Anything less than that is underrating him.
I wouldn't even describe Perez as below average. He's always been a solid mid-fielder. Even the team principals and drivers anonymously awarded him the tenth-best rating this year with all his flubbed races. Max has destroyed so many very good drivers, like Perez, Ricciardo, and Albon. Hamilton has obviously had better teammates throughout his career, but Hamilton didn't entirely dominate even Bottas, and he's only marginally stronger than Russell over the past two years. That said, I will point out that it's misleading to say that Ocon beat Alonso last year. Alonso performed far better over the season and had some terrible luck. You're making the mistake of looking at results rather than context.
I respectfully disagree with every single point you said here. No one is pushing that Perez is garbage so Max looks worse, we say he is garbage because he is complete garbage. Everyone who agreed Perez should be 20th also agreed Max is top 3 minimum. So that argument is nonsense. How can Perez fumble that many weekends in a row and get that many dnfs in a season with one of the most dominant cars ever and still be considered good?
That's the point though. If you had Perez and a better driver like say Sainz... Would it look so dominant? I'd argue no and it's only dominant because Max makes it look that way. Perez isn't a trash driver all of a sudden. He was worse this year because he was pushing harder and harder to try and match max. But overall he's probably still an average ish F1 driver. He's had a solid career and we can't just discount that because Max is way better. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Max dominates a team mate thoroughly and everyone says they are trash. Team mate leaves for another team and suddenly is a good F1 driver again. It's happened with albon, gasly and to a lesser extent Sainz. All of whom are older than Max. Everyone comes up with excuses for why they were terrible against verstappen but then good against other drivers. Instead maybe we should just accept the fact that they are decent drivers but max is significantly better than them or anyone else at the moment.
You sure you’re arguing with me? Because I didn’t say Max is shit. He’s one of the best drivers ever, but Perez was also shit this year and extremely underperformed. Whether that was because he tried to match Max or whatever else, he underperformed, simple as that. As for max, he absolutely rinsed everyone else and that’s no debate.
People aren't doing that on purpose, but they are pushing that narrative nonetheless. Classifying Max as a 'top 3 minimum' is technically not wrong but it's severely underrating him. Max is going down as the best EVER at this rate. Which a lot of people don't seem to like, so to wrap their head around what's happening they'll push narratives like Perez being trash, Norris not wanting to join Red Bull because Max is the established driver. This is a classic case of Occam's razor, the simplest explanation tends to be the closest to the truth. Max is the best, by miles.
He’s top 3 minimum because some people like Lewis or Alonso more, that’s it. He’s also one of the best formula 1 drivers ever. Perez also severely underperformed, and that’s it.
Yeah this is really all it is. Max is a legend he's showed he's an unstoppable force. I just think he's not the most likable so it's hard for people to come to accept he is the best more than likely.
He's utterly embarrassed a number of solid, midfield drivers in a way that no one else has in recent memory. Compare Verstappen vs. Perez and Hamilton vs. Bottas, for instance. I think current Verstappen is likely the best driver in the modern era by a huge margin. He's also almost certainly the greatest driver of all time in terms of mechanical skill since the average skill and skill floor for F1 is massively higher now than it was even a decade ago.
What rock do you live under that you think people are underrating Max? Even the people I know that don't like him will easily admit that he is one of the most talented drivers ever in any form of motorsport. No one... anywhere... is underrating him as a driver.
There’s a very solid argument to be made that Max is the best ever, bar none. Rating him as “one of the most talented drivers ever”, would be underrating him.
I genuinely wonder what you would have said to someone raving in the same way about Lewis in 2020. I am certain you would have quickly said something about the car. The only obstacle to "statistical greatness" Lewis really faced that season was COVID.
I know this would be ifs buts and maybes, but I reckon Max would have won more races in that 2020 Merc than Lewis did, as in 2023 Max really won every race he had a reasonable chance of winning, which Lewis did not achieve in 2020. Let's look at every race in 2020 that Lewis didn't win: \-Austria, beaten by Bottas in qualifying, fucked up with yellow flags in the race, Lewis defo could've won that (especially given the fact he won at the same track the week after) \-70th anniversary GP, Mercedes went a bit conservative with the tyres, though this was also an absolute masterclass by Verstappen, so let's give Lewis the benefit of the doubt here and say he couldn't have won it. \-Italian GP, Hamilton drove into a closed pitlane and got two penalty points for it, definitely his fault and he could have very much won that race on pace. \-Russian GP, Hamilton got time penalties for doing practice starts outside the designated area, very much could have won it. \-Sakhir, Hamilton had COVID, so he couldn't really have won that one \-Abu Dhabi, Hamilton might have still been recovering from COVID, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. So that means that out of the six races that Hamilton didn't win in 2020, he could have very much won three, but didn't. Now let's look at Verstappen's 2023: \-Saudi GP, technical issue in qualifying, still finished second, but Perez had built up too much of a lead, couldn't really have won the race. \-Baku GP, Verstappen was very unfortunate with the safety car, definitely not his fault that he didn't win it \-Singapore GP, car wasn't fast enough, Verstappen couldn't really have won it. So in conclusion, Max managed to win EVERY race in 2023 that he could, whereas Hamilton only won 11/14 races that he had the opportunity to win. This is what I mean with Verstappen being LEVELS above the competition. Hamilton's 2020 is one of the all time great seasons by an F1 driver yet it pales in comparison to what Max did in a car that wasn't better than the 2020 Mercedes. These achievements look similar on face value but when you look closely they don't compare at all. We are witnessing unprecedented greatness in Max, enjoy it while you can.
Best ever already? Come on.
This is getting ridiculous now
I know that it's at the very least premature to make that statement, but let's look at this the following way: is there anything that definitively makes him not the best ever? I'm not saying he definitively is the best ever, but he very well could be, in which case a lot of people are underrating him. And just fyi, the great Niki Lauda called Max the talent of the century, and Jenson Button called him the most talented driver he's ever seen, this opinion isn't as ridiculous as it might seem.
Do you hear yourself? He's still young and has tons of years of racing ahead of him in F1, Sports Cars, DTM... wherever he wants to go. But if we don't, at this point in his life, unequivocally declare him the best ever.... we're underrating him? C'mon now
He was just stating the facts. Max has been with Red Bull forever and has relationships running all through the team and management. Not to mention he is completely in tune with the car. To recognize / admit that it would be very, very difficult to come in and take on Max under these circumstances is just speaking the truth.
People seem to forget Verstappen has the 3rd most Grands prix (162 races) with the same constructor after The Michael (180) and Hamiton (222). The level of chemistry and synergy between him and the team is really high. Their relationship brings a lot of stability to the team. By this point I'm sure the engineers and team back in MK know exactly what features of the car Max needs and it for sure motivates them knowing that they just have to deliver the car and Max will do the rest.
The way Norris argued his decision was a bit clumsy, not the decision itself. If he just had stated that his chances of becoming a world champion looked better to him at McLaren than being a number 2 at Red Bull and be done with it, then there wouldn't have been a discussion.
Maybe go and listen to what he actually said. The quote has, as usual, been taken out of context. He stated that he wasn't afraid to take on Max, but that the decision he had to make was a lot more complicated than that. He would have been walking away from the team he loves and who love him (he is as emotionally attached to McLaren as Leclerc is to Ferrari), the team he feels have brought him up through his career and he feels immensely at home with and in his own words considers to be his family, just as everything they have worked so hard for is on the verge of coming good, Leaving "his team" to take on Max in what is very staunchly "Max's team", with the pressure of having to deliver against Max in that environment immediately or face the adverse judgement of the masses who would allow him next to no time to bed in. And doing all that just as the new regs were coming in, meaning RB might not even be the dominant or even the best team any more and there is even a chance that the car he would be leaving behind would be on an even footing if not better. He says quite clearly in the interview that he had to weigh up everything he would be walking away from and decide if it was worth it or not, and he ultimately decided he would be best placed to take on Max, at least for the next few years, by staying where he was. I would bet every penny I own that no other driver in a top 4 team would willingly walk away right now from their seat and into that RB second seat on the off-chance they may be able to wrest it away from Max either. Not Lewis, not Russell, not Leclerc, not Sainz, not Piastri. Piastri was even perfectly timed and placed to chase that seat when Checo's contract ended and yet he deliberately chose to take himself off the market. I doubt even Alonso would go for it, unless he was planning for it to be his final year in the sport and he figured he might as well do it for the hell of it as he would have nothing to lose. Why should Norris have to defend the fact that he doesn't want to either?
He did say that. They just took one part out of the interview where he talks specifically about why he didn't want to sign with RB.
He should have left it at that: argue why the McLaren option is better, not why the Red Bull option is worse. That's just a snake pit you want to avoid. Bringing up the 2026 changes would be enough of an argument for sticking to McLaren vs switching to Red Bull.
This!
I really don’t think the average person understands what a big deal it is to be THE GUY at a top/prestigious team. Like Lando might have a better chance of beating Max at Red Bull but he’d be leaving a team that adores him and has nurtured him and believed in him since he was 17. It’s one thing if that team is a backmarker, but it’s Mclaren, who in current form can 100% develop to win races and championships, and who imo have the second most prestigious history in F1. There’s a lot more to it than just the (valid) on-track element
It's not really about missing the point, it's more about a certain fanbase not wanting to hear or accept that point. And therefore they go full on defense mode and start shitting on Norris, it has little to do with being a critic. At least that's what happened in that thread on Reddit and social media.
Good point well made.... but I can only assume the writer of this article believes "prodigal" to be the adjectival form of "prodigy". It so isn't.
Even Alonso said that facing Verstappen at red bull was the only challenge he wouldnt take.. that was in 2019 I believe. What Norris said isn’t outrages.
Norris to redbull was never going to happen. Redbull doesn't have a history of two number 1s. I think if Merc was the top team and a spot was open Norris would've jumped at that opportunity. I think it's the reputation the team has built. Redbull is Max's team. Mclaren is now Norris'; that's job security.
They approached him a couple of times, don't think they did it without the intent of signing him.
2009, 2014, 2018?
gray jeans chubby attraction divide wrench recognise screw point icky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Piastri may move in surprising ways if a situation arises. Since his manager is a Flavio Briatore -guy, nothing's really off the table.. :D
His manager is Mark Webber, not Flavio. Flavio was Mark's manager
>Flavio was Mark's manager Exactly what was said Mark Webber learned from Briatore
Oh I guess I misread it as "his manager is Flavio Briatore". I haven't had my coffee yet today
Yup better be 2nd to max than be 2nd to Oscar.
Mercedes very much may have that in 2026 and Norris would have had that option if he hadn’t signed the extension
It's very bold to assume that Lando would become another number 1 at Red Bull He knows he'd be number 2 and that's why he's denying the likely title shot he'd have at Red Bull which is fair.
Two number ones isn’t possible, one would always become the no.2, in this case Norris. Hence at the moment, his best option is betting on A) McLaren improving to become serious contenders and B) continuing to outpace Piastri. If this strategy fails he may still have another chance for a drive with RB.
Nobody wants to go to Red Bull, that would be suicide. I don’t care if you are Hamilton, Norris or Piastri, they all will loose to Max. The whole team is already build around him. He already has a lot of goodwill in the team, there is no way a new person could win against Max at this moment.
This. Anyone who thinks any driver in the top 4 teams would walk willingly away from their current seat and into that second RB seat is living in fantasy-land. Not Lewis, not Russell, not Leclerc, not Sainz, not Piastri. Even Alonso said a few years ago that it was the one seat he wouldn't want. The only way I could see even him going for it now would be if he has already decided he was only doing one more year in F1 and the figured he might as well give it a go for the hell of it as he would have nothing to lose. I keep seeing people saying nonsense things like "Piastri would have gone for it" and yet Piastri was perfectly positioned timing-wise to lobby for the seat at the end of 2024 when both his and Checo's contracts were due to end, and yet he made the conscious decision to re-sign with McLaren and therefore take himself out of the running. So no, he wouldn't have "gone for it" at this moment in time either.
How? How is a move to RB any different than a move to Mercedes? Both teams have dominated the last decade. Both teams have a top-tier multiple world champion, and those said champions have been at their team for quite some time (and justifyble get preferential treatment because of merit) When it was announced that George would join Mercedes from 2022 onwards. Hardly anyone said that he would be a fool to step into Lewis' team or that he wouldn't get a fair treatment because of Lewis' status within the team. Although 2023 wasn't great for him, he can hold his own against Lewis. Apparently, he said that if Lewis wasn't his teammate, he would want to be Max's. Talk shit about George all you want, but wanting to challenge yourself against the best is a winner's mentality. Lewis didn't shy away as rookie for two times WDC Alonso. Charles stepped into Ferrari while it was still Vettels team. Carlos and George joined their current teams when it's clearly Charles' and Lewis' team, respectively. If RB came to call any of them, all of them would take that seat in an instant.
Noone said that about George because he was at Williams, he had no shot at anything special there. People look at McLaren's late season form and see hope for wins maybe this season and they're building world class facilities. As for the rest of that, carlos left a struggling McLaren for Ferrari against Charles who is good, but isn't max, and George left the 9th or 10th best team to join the one who just won their 8th straight WCC it doesn't matter who was there it was the right move
Not a single one of your examples is good. When George went to Mercedes he came from Williams. He had nothing to lose and everything to gain against the multiple time WDC. Same goes for Charles when he joined Ferrari. Of course it was the right move even if he got beaten it's still better than driving for Sauber. And Lewis went from GP2 to F1 with a team that was more his than Alonso's despite being a rookie. He was with McLaren since he was 13 and done thousands of km on track for them before he finally got a seat. It was also clear who Ron Dennis preferred with his famous quote "we aren't racing Kimi, we are racing Fernando" before the final few races of the season in 2007. Lando is in a team that finished the season as the second fastest car on pace. He has a lot more reasons to stay in his team than all the drivers you mentioned.
Haven't seen anyone critique Norris' statement anywhere, quite the opposite actually. Most people found that he was grounded and mature during that whole mini interview.
Tbh I get Lando. He has a chance to build his own team and be successful with it but in his shoes as someone that wants to win I’m jumping in the fastest car straight away I don’t care if Jesus Christ is driving it. It may not be the smartest move but who really knows? They are all there to win and if they present you the best way to win in the most immediate way, you just take it. Any world champion would have done it in their prime
So Norris doesn't believe he can beat Verstappen when they have the same car.
Imagine getting hired at a job and immediately going to the CEO and trying to compete against them for their job.
Really curious what happens with Sainz long-term. I could see a world where he realizes Leclerc is ultimately the #1 driver at Ferrari, and if he's gonna be a second driver, it might as well be at the best team, moving back into the Red Bull family. He's been competitive with Leclerc over a season because of his consistency, a perfect 2nd driver to Max if he buys in. His only options to be a #1 driver would be if Alonso ever decided to retire, or a gamble on Audi.
Norris knows is not as fast as Max. We all know it too. Norris is very good but simply not that type of good. There is no shame in that. Max will most likely win at least 4-5 titles… only a handful of people in history of F1 belongs to that elite group.
More teammates dodged than race wins (just joking haha)
Max is good enough that even if you are better it's going to be marginal, and a marginal difference in ability is hidden by working better with the team. Red Bull is Team Max. Whilst I'm sure there a chunk of the team that don't care who is driving as long as they are winning, there are plenty of members of that team are very, very all in on Max and anyone trying to challenge him would not be welcomed. That will make life very difficult for them and that would be enough to overhaul any marginal ability difference. Not to mention the bigger amount of the team that just exceptionally well with Max because his been there for years and it just works. The comparisons are poor. Hamilton was a rookie (and somewhat regarded as the future of the team). Leclerc was a Ferrari academy driver, groomed to be the number one and Vettel was not Max. George was a Merc Academy driver, groomed to be the successor to Lewis and probably did not except Lewis to be sticking around as long as he has been. Lando is not a Red Bull Driver. Max is not near retirement, nor is he clearly on the wane ability wise. The only real relationship he has at Red Bull is a friendship with Max and guess what. That will go to the shitter the moment Lando ever has the audacity to be faster then him as we have seen countless times before. So there is zero point in him going to Red Bull. Bank on Mclaren developing a car able to compete with RB is the only realistic way to win.
Critics don’t miss the point they have an opinion, the same way The-Race’s piece has an opinion. No one is right or wrong.
Piastri will be McLaren's #1 driver in 2025.
I just hope people give the same break to Perez. Leaving the Best Driver discussion aside. I don't think there is any driver right now who can beat Max in a Red bull. Gerenational talent, trained since he was in diapers, currently in his prime, In a team build around him where he has great relationships, already breaking lots of records, future contender for goat discussion. People don't understando how big of a Monster Max is right now driving for that team.
Perez has been bad at times which is where the criticism comes from.
thats proper bri*ish copium right there
he wants to cement his status as McL's number one after McL favored Sainz and Ricciardo before 2022