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“Speaking at the end of the day, Russell said: “Overall, the W15 does feel nicer to drive than last year's car. We know that it's not about the feeling, but the speed. Nevertheless, today was about learning and not about chasing performance.
"We're focused on ourselves at this test, and it will only be next week where we see where we stack up against the others.””
So They didn’t show anything today then. pretty much what the speed traps were telling.
The have the same method to testing every year yet people seem to forget when the season starts. Merc is very militant on their testing plan and don’t change it for anything.
I remember that first winter test in 2014. Mercedes put in a crazy amount of laps on the first day, as did most of the customer teams. They just had bullet proof reliability out of the box while Renault powered cars were a laughing stock.
And then the irony of R1 when Lewis was the first to retire on the formation lap running on 5 cylinders instead of 6. But that first test was super ominous to Ferrari and Renault powered cars.
It’s also arguably the most important thing for a team with major manufacturer backing. Mercedes are in F1 to give a sense of speed and glamour to their cars, but when the average fast road car and the average F1 car are both as reliable as they are today it really hurts them if they’re adding unreliability to that image. Billionaires/millionaires/wealthy professionals don’t want their baubles breaking down in Mayfair/Monte-Carlo/Munich/Surrey.
Mercedes are more likely to pull backing if the car breaks down a lot than if it’s slow.
Didn't they practically look lower midfield last year?
Regardless of what this new and frankly fugly rb turns out as, beating them is probably out of the question, but other than that, I think it's reasonable to be optimistic about their having a more predictable performance this year
Not really. They came in second, although the points gap was absolutely huge. They didn't score wins but they had podiums and points, I wouldn't say that is lower midfield. They didn't have the flamboyance that McLaren showed in the second half of the season but the platform as a whole was flawed, I think they did the best with what they had.
My previous post in which I said this year's car is a lemon went with sarcasm undetected - I don't really think the new car is slow, it's just that they have this testing protocol that they're sticking to that I find a bit annoying as we don't know if it's sandbagging, complete disregard to see what the car can do or old people playing chess. Max does what Max does, hence the time - I see that as a shot across the bow of all the teams - and I'm hopeful this is just Merc keeping their cool. I think end of day 3 is when the times on the board are somehow indicative of what we can expect this season - more or less.
>They didn't score wins but they had podiums and points, I wouldn't say that is lower midfield
I was referring to during testing
Obviously overall they weren't a lower midfield team
Watching Day 2 Session 1 I am increasingly convinced I have no clue what they're doing during testing 😅
I don't think testing (at least in the beginning) establishes anything, it depends a lot on the driver influence on the team's decisions and whether they will at one point radio the driver to give it the beans (or if they even allow it during testing).
It really makes sense because they are the team which has the most changes to test, from pull to push road on the back axle, new sidepods, new front wing, new gearbox, and for sure changes on the floor. They will probably still trying to figure the things out well into the season
Mclaren is just evolution from the last year, am has new push road and new gearbox, but sidepods, wings and engine cover are also just evolutions from 2023 car.
lets look at the list posted.....
"from pull to push road on the back axle, new sidepods, new front wing, new gearbox, and for sure changes on the floor."
both Aston and Mac have the changes to engine and suspension and transmission....because the Merc changes carry over to them....
all teams have new floors, all teams have new front wings...and sidepods...
or if you want Aston's own statement....
"but there is minor carryover with the majority of the parts being new for 2024. The continuous refinement of the AMR24 has resulted in a lighter, more aerodynamically efficient race car, designed to operate across a wider range of circuits."
[https://www.astonmartinf1.com/en-GB/news/announcement/aston-martin-aramco-presents-the-amr24](https://www.astonmartinf1.com/en-GB/news/announcement/aston-martin-aramco-presents-the-amr24)
Of cource that the all parts are new on am and everyone else, but they are not "new new", they are not changes from concept of the last year, they are evolutions of it. Merc has new sidepod concepts, new engine cover, new front wing concept with that top part being connected to nose just with "wire". Merc has way more parts to test and figure out, and not enough data to compare them to previous iterations of those parts because that sidepod inlet is litteraly being used for the first time today, while am has just longer bottom lip. Am sidepods, wings, floor changes are just next iteration, while merc is starting from zero.
You have no idea of the fuel loads, which is why the lap time doesn't really matter. Even when Mercedes had the best car, they didn't top time sheets on the first days of testing.
this is all true...but with 128 laps when most drivers put in 70 or less... it's pretty much impossible they had every lap with a full tank of gas...
you can see how I might think Russel at least would try at least one or two low fuel "push" runs like pretty much everyone else on the grid appears to have done in his full day of testing... I mean if he doesn't now what/ he's gonna jump in in a week and just giver and hope the car is fast... he only has a half day left to reall get to know the car....
.and again Max's "break out" lap speed is still 1+ seconds off last years pole...so nobody is swinging for the fences right now. and nobody is chasing performance...
and claiming Mercedes has "more to test" than other teams is a cop out. every car has significant differences from last season...
Significant difference and a whole new concept... are completely different.
Merc notoriously don't chase performance or do glory runs. Look at the telemetry data. They had one of the lowest top speeds, and lowest full throttle usage. Do you really think the merc pace is after they pushed it a little with lower fuel?
i don't think anyone pushed.... Max was 1+ second slower than last years pole.....
as for the Development race?
Aston has a whole new concept...RedBull has a whole new concept...McLaren has a whole new concept
Aston and McLaren has the same challenges with the engine gear box suspension and floor Merc has... it's all brand new concepts on where it's mounted and how it operates compared to last years unit. the floor is 100% different. and the floor is like 80% of the car in this ground effect era.
so if it's new...the whole car isnew...
I don't think you know what concept means. Aston, RB, McLaren all are just evolutions of their previous cars.
The Merc is fundamentally a different concept.
i don’t think you know what a concept is…
the merc “different concept” is very much the issue…
a huge part of the merc change involved reworking the power unit and gearbox position, their mounting points, and switching the rear suspension to a pushrod layout….. allowing for larger diffuser openings and cleaner airflow out the back end
all of that affected the customer teams as those parts were now different from the previous year. weight balance and clearances all changed. for Merc McLaren and Aston….
so they all had to significantly alter the chassis and floor to accommodate that change.
and again. in the ground effects era about 80% of the grip and areo is created by the floor/difuser… meaning all three teams have to deal with
a different position, weight balance, and areo .
granted Merc also changed driver position a bit… but to claim that Maclaren and Aston are just refining a few lines from thier 2023 car is absurd.
Ok so
1. Russel did 122 laps over two sessions, Max did 143. Most drivers did 60-70 laps in a session so George did a low average number of laps. Plus he pitted fairly often so it's absolutely very possible that the laps were on very high fuel loads.
Remember race distance in Bahrain is 58 laps and a race normally lasts around an hour and a half. So George did a race distance each session but over the course of 4 hours instead of 1 and a half hours. Again it's so incredibly plausible that he had a near full tank for the majority of his runs.
2. Merc are very firm on their test plans. They always have been. They will decide they are doing high fuel runs and George doesn't have the authority to change that. Keep in mind he only used the drs very briefly in the session so they clearly weren't doing any quali runs.
3. Max is 1 second off last years pole yes. But he is also 1.5 seconds faster than preseason testing session one last year... so clearly he isn't taking it easy. You need to remember that the track will be a lot more rubbered in come quali next week so lap times will naturally be faster by then.
you made up so many things in your own head…
most drivers did about 70 laps total today. most teams opting to put both drivers in the car…. Max and George were the two prominent exceptions. so your “low average” is actually second highest… so you are 100% wrong in your first point.
several of george’s runs were fairly long runs so even if he started over fuelled…for reasons only you seem to be able to imagine….he still would have been running fairly light at the end of the longer stints….
so you are wrong again but you get a half point because you are right Merc sets the test schedule and parameters not george.
with most of the teams completing near 140 laps today the track is about as rubbered in as it would be on any race weekend… and with no pre races , parades, marching bands etc… the track is probably in better shape than any race weekend.
Ok so...
If George did 122 laps in 8 hours and leclerc did 64 in 8. Then George did an average of less laps a session than ferrari...
So mercedes did 122 laps in 8 hours of running, ferrari did 133, mclaren did 130, AM did 131. So as I said merc did less laps than most teams... George did more laps yes but he did it in 2 sessions so on average George did 61 laps a session which is lower than the average number of laps driven by a driver.
Aka my first point is 100% correct.
Again as stated Bahrain is a 58 lap circuit. Even if George did a long run of 10 or 15 laps from full load he would still have a very high fuel load by the end of his runs. Let's break that down. So if George started on a full load, enough for 58 laps, and did 15 laps. He would have gone from 100% fuel to about 74% fuel. (He would also have worn those tires down a reasonable amount). So if RB and ferrari were focused on fuel loads around 50% they would still have significantly less fuel than the merc. Even if they were looking at fuel loads starting at 75% they would be on 75% fuel on new tires vs George on 15 lap old tires. So It's impossible to compare times without knowing what fuel load everyone was on.
And yet in test one last year the fastest time was 1.5 seconds slower than Max this year. We can't pretend Max was taking it easy when he goes and gains 1.5 seconds on the same session last year.
So yeah I didn't make anything up in my own head.
I read "more practice and experience in the car than almost any other driver had in theirs on the day means less speed" and quit reading the rest of your nonsense.
George was on the later laps with a better rubbered track, as he did both sessions ...meaning
more experience in learning the car and it's limits than 80% of the other drivers.. several long runs..probably with a myriad of setups and fuel loads...cuz that's what teams do in testing.(not some nonsense about every run with 75% or more load).....and still slower than other drivers on 5 other teams.....
It's not definitive...but it's not 100% comforting for Merc either...
>I read "more practice and experience in the car than almost any other driver had in theirs on the day means less speed" and quit reading the rest of your nonsense.
You should maybe reread my comment then because I never said this.
What I did say was that as George did less laps per session than the average he had plenty of time to refuel his car. Meaning your claim that "but with 128 laps when most drivers put in 70 or less... it's pretty much impossible they had every lap with a full tank of gas" was complete nonsense.
>George was on the later laps with a better rubbered track, as he did both sessions ...meaning
Good for him. Unsure why you think it's worth mentioning as I never said otherwise.
>more experience in learning the car and it's limits than 80% of the other drivers.. several long runs..probably with a myriad of setups and fuel loads...cuz that's what teams do in testing.(not some nonsense about every run with 75% or more load).....and still slower than other drivers on 5 other teams.....
As is the case with Merc literally every year... They have a testing plan focused on reliability and data, not on one lap pace. They have done the same thing for like 10 years now at this point my guy. They are always lower in testing than they are come quali in the first race.
So what we have discovered is that none of your logic holds up to any serious scrutiny. Glad we worked that out.
Based on data, it looks like they stuck to long runs today. Doing three separate long runs including a full race run according to Mercedes twitter account.
A fan account posted George’s times here: https://x.com/mercedesnewsuk/status/1760336540239122784?s=46
Kravitz asked John Owen (Mercedes Chief Designer) about the W15 today and he said “hats off to our aero team”. https://x.com/mercedesnewsuk/status/1760294655382442467?s=46
Overall the entire camp seems happy.
>Kravitz asked John Owen (Mercedes Chief Designer) about the W15 today and he said “hats off to our aero team”.
This is a bit misleading. Ted was saying hats off to him for the new wing so his reply was to acknowledge he wasn't the only one involved more than anything else. Not worth reading anything into it
Or there is a lot for them to learn how to dial in the car and currently can’t dial it in compared to the top. They probably will close in but for such a new design it will take them some time.
When I used to race karts, supple, good handling karts were always slow. Why? Because they were never fast enough to stress the chassis. I wonder if it’s similar for carbon monocoque beasts
>"We're focused on ourselves at this test, and it will only be next week where we see where we stack up against the others.”
So basically the car is still a lemon, just a nicer lemon.
Bloody norah.
I mean rb have produced a master piece of a car. Hats of to the engineers there.
They do probably have 2024 and 2025 locked down.
My excitement is really for 2026 when we learn if they can make their own engine well.
It started positive last year but by the end of Race week 1, Toto was pissed and saying they knew after testing this car was shit and he decided to switch to the B spec they already prepared.
We'll just have to wait and see.
Merc weren’t doing any kind of performance running anyway.
The problem Merc have is just trying to develop. They’re not stuck or unstable like they were in the zeropod, it’s just they have lost a lot of time and the new philosophy isn’t maximised like the teams who’ve been on a set path for a while now. If their development rate is really good they can definitely get closer to the front.
They already had rapid development pace with their last two cars. But now since they also aren't diagnosing issues hopefully it's full steam ahead on performance.
This is why I dislike the cost cap.
Without it mercedes probably would have been developing both concepts and while I suspect redbull would still be on top it would be a bit more exciting wondering if mercedes had caught up.
With current rules in place, what Verstappen did last season is very likely to happen again in the near future. Either with Verstappen again just breaking his own records or another driver for another team once 2026 rolls around. You're limited to what you can spend, you're limited to what/when/how much you can test, you're limited to how much/when you can develop. The rules in place just prevent catching up. You either get it right from the start, or you don't. And if you mess up in-between, you're screwed until the next time regulations change.
The rules have to change if they want someone to catch Red Bull. The rules will have to change if they want to catch Mercedes in 2026 and beyond as they're allegedly way ahead on the engine project.
When there were no caps Ferrari dominated because they had a silly budget, they had a private test track, and would just spend hundreds of hours testing the car in secret.
Yes, the limits can cripple a team, but also reward teams with smart spending like Aston Martin and McLaren. And punishes teams that would normally rely in their hegemony.
I am against a cost cap not against private testing bans which were in place long before the cost cap.
It is a difficult balance to find but for me if a team cannot afford to be at the pinnacle of motorsports then they shouldn't be there.
I watch F1 for innovation and incredible engineering not for incredible budgeting.
I think cost cap has its benefits in that we’re not talking about teams going under every couple of years. That being said I think it should be raised, the fact teams can’t even explore majorly different concepts isn’t good in my opinion.
Teams ability to administer themselves has always been part of F1; Williams used to be able to do it and be competitive, Red Bull to an extent as well as they managed to beat Ferrari with a difference in budget that was in the ballpark of 100M.
The most expensive car does not mean a faster car, innovation also comes from having to adapt to situations instead of grinding the money and see if something happens.
Ah yes we all remember the clean sweep Ferrari championships back to back with no escaping it. Absolutely needed a cost cap to put a stop to that… they haven’t won a title in over 15 years, I really don’t think hampering Ferrari really needs to be the top priority!
you are either willfully ignorant or have no idea what you are talking about. from 1999 to 2004 Ferrari had the fastest car by a mile because they could spend and test unlimited. Only a targeted ban on their tyres did anything, and even then they were really fast again in 2006-2008.
Then we had 4 years of Red Bull, even though we had good competition in those years, and then we had 8 years of Mercedes. So no, domination happens also without the cost cap, and chances would be it still would be Mercedes because of the massive budget they had.
During the season they would keep developing the car having Schumacher and Barichello drive sometimes 100 hours per week in a track where no one could see what they were working on.
The rest of the teams were sharing Silverstone which is why they had to use camouflage paint to avoid others seeing what they were testing.
100% agree, it's frustrating that people think we just don't want RedBull or Max to keep winning, it's not that at all.
RedBull and Max deserve to win, they built the best car and he's an amazing driver and they should reap the rewards for their hardwork.
The problem is that F1 has made it impossible for teams to catch anyone who has an advantage like this.
The budget cap, the banning of any tech remotely in the grey area etc... prevents teams from being able to focus on the current season to catch up.
Instead they have to throw away entire seasons, and focus on the following year, but the team who is already winning can do the same thing, so they're ahead already and can still focus on the car for next year.
If they aren't going to make changes that could help teams catch up mid season, then they need to change the car regulations every 2 years at the least, that way a team can only dominate for 2 years at the most, before everyone at least gets a chance to be capable of fighting for wins again.
We have to stop using the exuse that "this is always the ways it's been," because it doesn't have to be.
We can and should have competition for wins every year, the fact that we didn't have any competition last year after all these attempts to bring the field together should have been a massive red flag and the sport should have been looking into ways to resolve this, because I guarantee this season will be exactly like last year except it'll be a full sweep for RedBull.
We have so much talent right now on the grid, and it's a shame to just see it wasted because we're stuck with this idea that dominance is how F1 should be.
It doesn't have to be this way, we saw in 2021 that we can have two teams battling it out every week, and it can be insanely exciting, and honestly to me we need to see a lot more teams competing for wins like we saw in 2010.
We should never go into a weekend knowing who is going to win the race, otherwise what's the point of following the sport.
Watching the midfield battles is alright, but let's be honest, what most people genuinely care about is watching drivers battling for wins.
2021 was because the FIA and F1 did everything they could to weaken Mercedes. All the rule changes were put in to basically weaken the W11 strengths. These new cars were supposed to bring back an evening field with several members of the F1 hierarchy saying if someone runs away with it, rules will change to even it up, still waiting on that...
That's not remotely true about 2021
The changes were made to slow down the 2020 cars or at least ensure any development keeps them in place, because the 2022 cars were supposed to debut in 2021, and Pirelli did not have the ability to make a new tyre compound to deal with higher loads from 2020 v2 cars
Before the season, everyone expected that all the changes made would favour a low rake design of car, like Mercedes. People were fairly split on whether it would be better for high or low rake cars, with both approaches loosing significant downforce. Ultimately, it was easier to balance the high rake cars, hence Merc and AM struggling a lot with balance and hence being slower. And by end of the season, Merc fixed their balance issues and were the definite fastest car
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.what-does-the-2021-aero-rules-change-mean-for-the-cars-and-which-teams-will.4UDFqT5FCn6Ix49mcn0wDt.html
>But the initial effect, as the teams put these new spec floors in simulation, might be expected to have more impact upon the high-rake cars (such as the Red Bull and others) than those optimised around a low rake angle (such as the Mercedes and Racing Point).
they literally delayed the rule changes by 1 year to make sure Lewis would get his 8th title
edit: ofc i get downvoted. So it is okay to make up theories saying the FIA targeted Mercedes which we know isnt the case. But the other way around isnt okay?
just like it is ridiculous to say that the rule changes were targeted at Mercedes., but you didnt make a comment saying that about u/WavingWookiee comment.
-> Bias
They extended the new cars until 2022. They could have just kept the same regs for 2021 in the realm of cost caps and control yet they didn't, did they really need to update the rules for a single season? They didn't because the W11 was a monster and they wanted a closer grid, there was no reason to change anything for 2021 other than to close the field
All of what you are saying is just false. But i dont think you actually care about what is true and what isnt. you just want to push the narrative of the merc being the victim. Getting targeted by the FIA lmao
2020 had quiet a few tire failures and pirelli wasnt sure if they could make better tires for 2021 as they were working on the tires for the new regs and didnt predict that they had to make stronger versions of the current tires.
The cars in 2021 would simply have been too fast, putting to much load on the tires. So fia decided to reduce the downforce, which takes load of the tires.
1. everything you are writing was already like this for 7 out of 10 teams before the cap.
2. it isnt like RB and Ferrari caught up in 2015, no it took them at least 3 years or more.
3. Mclaren and Aston clearly proved that you can make significant steps forward.
4. "attempts to bring the field together" - how are they attempts when they objectively did that. The gap from p1 to p20 has never been smaller.
5. it wasnt a full sweep and the fact that it nearly was, is actually surprising considering that in quiet a few races they were outright the fastest car. Like Vegas or Canada. But they got lucky at every turn kinda. Or in Monaco when Alonso pitted for slicks. Had they pitted for inters he could have won that.
6. 2021 after relatively stable regs from 2014 onwards with mid sized changes in 2017. **So from than one another 4 years**
feels like an biased opinion tbh, where you also that vocal about the Merc domination that things must absolutely change asap.
+ RB domination was like 1,5 years. Mercedes 3 + 2 years
It's almost always worse for dominance without a cost cap, not sure how people don't understand that.
Yes, maybe for 2022/23 it might have been a closer fight for first, even if the gaps for the whole field would become huge,
but maybe merc would make the fastest car again and it might have been even worse :D
Historically (in any sport) the team with the largest budget will eventually be the fastest/best.
There are also a lot of other factors that contributed to last year. Near perfect reliability from almost all teams (makes it impossible to compare to earlier eras), the second fastest car kept changing from race to race, etc.
Instead of chasing a team with development limits and the same amount of money as you, you end up chasing someone with no limitations and more money than you... Like we just had a few years ago :D
Overall the field is closer than ever.
It's just used as a scape goat by people because they need something to complain about IMO.
EDIT: I would not mind removing the cost cap, because it invites crazier innovations and more experimentation, but in terms of competitive integrity and a close field it's a no brainer :)
Nobody thinks that Merc are fighting Red Bull. A good result is if Merc have the second fastest car. And from how the car looked, if the car isn't in the fight for second, it will be with some performance upgrades
They need a good foundation. If they have that with the W15, it will be good news and we can expect good development gains throughout the season. The problem the last 2 seasons has been that they have a terrible foundation that they can't build around and so they're constantly chasing. McLaren took such a large leap last year because they had a stable foundation to build off of even if it was super slow to start. Ferrari and Merc had key fundamental flaws that prevented them from improving all that much but Merc were certainly more limited than the teams around them hence the drop off in form 2nd half of the season.
That’s great to hear, tbh.
If they’re not concerned about finding the “sweet spot” then it means they have found a solid window for setups and such which was one of their biggest issue the last two years.
Actually George was pretty on point about his prediction and how good the W14 was during his interview after the testing. If anything Lewis and Toto were far more optimistic back then
George also openly said last year after the Bahrain race that Red Bull had the chance to win every race that season. He got lots of flak from fans at the time but it turned out to be true.
Yep he was true in his assessment about how dominant redbull were but fans were not willing to accept it. Now we are talking if they can go unbeaten this season which was something no one was talking about last year. Just shows how great their car is
Everyone is an unknown. Ferrari weren't showing their full hand either. I think McLaren is the closest to Red Bull and they were still 1.6 seconds behind Verstappen which indicates they weren't showing their full hand.
We can only really know more next weekend. There's almost nothing the fans can take from testing. Remember when the W13 was 1-2 in Barcelona testing? Yeah me too.
I honestly cant remember that day...can you show me?
I can only find this and neither sound happy
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-in-a-much-better-place-after-final-day-of-f1-testing/10436726/
I am unable to find George’s interview with Ted Kravitz after the test where he basically says that car is not upto the level where they want it to be and were waiting for first major upgrades on the car after few races.
Russell's race sim looked encouraging, particularly as they are bound to make improvements to setup, etc., and was certainly quite a bit faster than their race sim(s) during last pre-season testing.
For context, however, Russell's final stint is only barely faster than Max's last stint in the Bahrain GP (who, we know, was heavily managing pace).
Early days still...
I accept the context, however, there are other factors to include. It was encouraging relative to other long runs today (we don't know fuel loads). I don't think it makes much sense to compare to last years race though. Heavy pushing, different tyres, etc.
Just hope we don't have a repeat of last year's dominance
Anecdotal warning:
"When I left McLaren and got in the Red Bull for the first tests I felt the Red Bull was a lot nicer to drive than the McLaren. But then we went to the first race and we weren't at the pace of the leaders! I realized that sometimes it's actually the quicker cars that are less comfortable to drive and if a car feels nice maybe it's actually a slow car!"
- David Coulthard
I mean tbh the w14 probably had a bit more lap time in it but the car was so unstable Lewis and George couldn't always trust it enough to really drive it.
So nicer to drive does generally help a car be faster.
Red Bull may yet prove that Mercedes (and Mike Elliott) should have stuck to their guns.
The rumor is that the RB20 - if it works - will run zeropods at Suzuka.
Yeah, the issue was getting the performance out of the floor that they saw in the simulator. And then the floor height got raised for 2023 which crippled their concept. Red Bull might switch to an overbody design that is similar to Mercedes, but it won't be the same concept as Mercedes.
Of course I don't know for sure.... But the proof is that the W13 is the design that actually managed to win a race for Mercedes (so far) in the last two years.
So.... Maybe there was something there is all I'm saying.
That said, after watching the morning session in Bahrain I don't subscribe to the belief the RB20 lifts directly from the W13 or W14. Maybe at most it has sections inspired by them but the execution looks totally different and does look like a radical reboot of their RB18 and RB19 ideas.
Red Bull are getting there a better way though. It looks like they started with fairly simple looking sidepods/engine covers etc. (comparatively speaking) and nailed the floor and suspension which are the key factors of the car.
Now they’ve clearly spent a lot of effort working on the cooling of the car and if the testing confirms that they can cool it with smaller inlets (but more of them) then they presumably they can do more with the aero on the side pods and possibly shrink them.
Mercedes could do something similar once they’ve confirmed their chassis/floor/suspension are all performing well but they’ve done it in a higgledy piggledy way.
I cannot even judge if Red Bull have nailed it or whether they slipped. Hard to watch testing, but you can tell which teams at least appeared comfortable by seeing who set a quick-ish lap and then settled into a race simulation.
And by that token I think we're looking at Red Bull, Ferrari, Aston Martin, and McLaren as the ones who did that.
I think I recall Mercedes, or one of their drivers saying that if you took out the side pods of the Red Bull, Red Bull would still be faster than them.
And on the other end, Adrian Newey was asked about the zeropod W13 and I recall he also said that: "If Mercedes can make it work.... they will be very fast."
Which is of course, high praise. But I guess, Mercedes figured it was gamesmanship rather than a true assessment.
There are 3 days of practice, with 2 sessions each day. Only one car can be run at a time, so some teams split each day and some do 1 solid day for each driver. Mercedes does 1 solid day for each.
Are you suggesting that the RB is faster than last years car by 1.4 secs on raw pace?
Look at the telemetry data, the merc long run pace was good, and they had one of the lowest top speeds and lowest full throttle times. Not saying it's RB beating, but it's by no means a tractor.
Relative to the first day of testing. Last year, Max ran it in 1:32:837; this year in 1:31:344. George was 1:34:174 and 1:34:109, respectively.
There are drivers that were significantly slower this year, so all things with a grain of salt. That said, if we're not making sweeping pronouncements based off the limited data of the first day, what are we even doing here?
I mean when the fastest car is so far ahead the second fastes kind of is garbage...
Lewis is a top tier driver who wants to win. He needs a top tier car to have a chance at fighting for that.
People who settle for second aren't the one's that succeed.
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“Speaking at the end of the day, Russell said: “Overall, the W15 does feel nicer to drive than last year's car. We know that it's not about the feeling, but the speed. Nevertheless, today was about learning and not about chasing performance. "We're focused on ourselves at this test, and it will only be next week where we see where we stack up against the others.”” So They didn’t show anything today then. pretty much what the speed traps were telling.
The have the same method to testing every year yet people seem to forget when the season starts. Merc is very militant on their testing plan and don’t change it for anything.
because reliability was the name of the game when they started competing at a high level and it was a hallmark of the hybrid era clean sweep
I remember that first winter test in 2014. Mercedes put in a crazy amount of laps on the first day, as did most of the customer teams. They just had bullet proof reliability out of the box while Renault powered cars were a laughing stock. And then the irony of R1 when Lewis was the first to retire on the formation lap running on 5 cylinders instead of 6. But that first test was super ominous to Ferrari and Renault powered cars.
> Renault powered cars were a laughing stock. Still are
Always have been
It’s also arguably the most important thing for a team with major manufacturer backing. Mercedes are in F1 to give a sense of speed and glamour to their cars, but when the average fast road car and the average F1 car are both as reliable as they are today it really hurts them if they’re adding unreliability to that image. Billionaires/millionaires/wealthy professionals don’t want their baubles breaking down in Mayfair/Monte-Carlo/Munich/Surrey. Mercedes are more likely to pull backing if the car breaks down a lot than if it’s slow.
and also because they are using an entirely new chassis, not an evolution of the W13/14 anymore
Didn't they practically look lower midfield last year? Regardless of what this new and frankly fugly rb turns out as, beating them is probably out of the question, but other than that, I think it's reasonable to be optimistic about their having a more predictable performance this year
Not really. They came in second, although the points gap was absolutely huge. They didn't score wins but they had podiums and points, I wouldn't say that is lower midfield. They didn't have the flamboyance that McLaren showed in the second half of the season but the platform as a whole was flawed, I think they did the best with what they had. My previous post in which I said this year's car is a lemon went with sarcasm undetected - I don't really think the new car is slow, it's just that they have this testing protocol that they're sticking to that I find a bit annoying as we don't know if it's sandbagging, complete disregard to see what the car can do or old people playing chess. Max does what Max does, hence the time - I see that as a shot across the bow of all the teams - and I'm hopeful this is just Merc keeping their cool. I think end of day 3 is when the times on the board are somehow indicative of what we can expect this season - more or less.
>They didn't score wins but they had podiums and points, I wouldn't say that is lower midfield I was referring to during testing Obviously overall they weren't a lower midfield team
Watching Day 2 Session 1 I am increasingly convinced I have no clue what they're doing during testing 😅 I don't think testing (at least in the beginning) establishes anything, it depends a lot on the driver influence on the team's decisions and whether they will at one point radio the driver to give it the beans (or if they even allow it during testing).
It really makes sense because they are the team which has the most changes to test, from pull to push road on the back axle, new sidepods, new front wing, new gearbox, and for sure changes on the floor. They will probably still trying to figure the things out well into the season
so do aston and MacLaren.... yet they were faster. and got in as many laps.
Mclaren is just evolution from the last year, am has new push road and new gearbox, but sidepods, wings and engine cover are also just evolutions from 2023 car.
lets look at the list posted..... "from pull to push road on the back axle, new sidepods, new front wing, new gearbox, and for sure changes on the floor." both Aston and Mac have the changes to engine and suspension and transmission....because the Merc changes carry over to them.... all teams have new floors, all teams have new front wings...and sidepods... or if you want Aston's own statement.... "but there is minor carryover with the majority of the parts being new for 2024. The continuous refinement of the AMR24 has resulted in a lighter, more aerodynamically efficient race car, designed to operate across a wider range of circuits." [https://www.astonmartinf1.com/en-GB/news/announcement/aston-martin-aramco-presents-the-amr24](https://www.astonmartinf1.com/en-GB/news/announcement/aston-martin-aramco-presents-the-amr24)
Of cource that the all parts are new on am and everyone else, but they are not "new new", they are not changes from concept of the last year, they are evolutions of it. Merc has new sidepod concepts, new engine cover, new front wing concept with that top part being connected to nose just with "wire". Merc has way more parts to test and figure out, and not enough data to compare them to previous iterations of those parts because that sidepod inlet is litteraly being used for the first time today, while am has just longer bottom lip. Am sidepods, wings, floor changes are just next iteration, while merc is starting from zero.
You have no idea of the fuel loads, which is why the lap time doesn't really matter. Even when Mercedes had the best car, they didn't top time sheets on the first days of testing.
this is all true...but with 128 laps when most drivers put in 70 or less... it's pretty much impossible they had every lap with a full tank of gas... you can see how I might think Russel at least would try at least one or two low fuel "push" runs like pretty much everyone else on the grid appears to have done in his full day of testing... I mean if he doesn't now what/ he's gonna jump in in a week and just giver and hope the car is fast... he only has a half day left to reall get to know the car.... .and again Max's "break out" lap speed is still 1+ seconds off last years pole...so nobody is swinging for the fences right now. and nobody is chasing performance... and claiming Mercedes has "more to test" than other teams is a cop out. every car has significant differences from last season...
Significant difference and a whole new concept... are completely different. Merc notoriously don't chase performance or do glory runs. Look at the telemetry data. They had one of the lowest top speeds, and lowest full throttle usage. Do you really think the merc pace is after they pushed it a little with lower fuel?
i don't think anyone pushed.... Max was 1+ second slower than last years pole..... as for the Development race? Aston has a whole new concept...RedBull has a whole new concept...McLaren has a whole new concept Aston and McLaren has the same challenges with the engine gear box suspension and floor Merc has... it's all brand new concepts on where it's mounted and how it operates compared to last years unit. the floor is 100% different. and the floor is like 80% of the car in this ground effect era. so if it's new...the whole car isnew...
I don't think you know what concept means. Aston, RB, McLaren all are just evolutions of their previous cars. The Merc is fundamentally a different concept.
i don’t think you know what a concept is… the merc “different concept” is very much the issue… a huge part of the merc change involved reworking the power unit and gearbox position, their mounting points, and switching the rear suspension to a pushrod layout….. allowing for larger diffuser openings and cleaner airflow out the back end all of that affected the customer teams as those parts were now different from the previous year. weight balance and clearances all changed. for Merc McLaren and Aston…. so they all had to significantly alter the chassis and floor to accommodate that change. and again. in the ground effects era about 80% of the grip and areo is created by the floor/difuser… meaning all three teams have to deal with a different position, weight balance, and areo . granted Merc also changed driver position a bit… but to claim that Maclaren and Aston are just refining a few lines from thier 2023 car is absurd.
Ok so 1. Russel did 122 laps over two sessions, Max did 143. Most drivers did 60-70 laps in a session so George did a low average number of laps. Plus he pitted fairly often so it's absolutely very possible that the laps were on very high fuel loads. Remember race distance in Bahrain is 58 laps and a race normally lasts around an hour and a half. So George did a race distance each session but over the course of 4 hours instead of 1 and a half hours. Again it's so incredibly plausible that he had a near full tank for the majority of his runs. 2. Merc are very firm on their test plans. They always have been. They will decide they are doing high fuel runs and George doesn't have the authority to change that. Keep in mind he only used the drs very briefly in the session so they clearly weren't doing any quali runs. 3. Max is 1 second off last years pole yes. But he is also 1.5 seconds faster than preseason testing session one last year... so clearly he isn't taking it easy. You need to remember that the track will be a lot more rubbered in come quali next week so lap times will naturally be faster by then.
you made up so many things in your own head… most drivers did about 70 laps total today. most teams opting to put both drivers in the car…. Max and George were the two prominent exceptions. so your “low average” is actually second highest… so you are 100% wrong in your first point. several of george’s runs were fairly long runs so even if he started over fuelled…for reasons only you seem to be able to imagine….he still would have been running fairly light at the end of the longer stints…. so you are wrong again but you get a half point because you are right Merc sets the test schedule and parameters not george. with most of the teams completing near 140 laps today the track is about as rubbered in as it would be on any race weekend… and with no pre races , parades, marching bands etc… the track is probably in better shape than any race weekend.
Ok so... If George did 122 laps in 8 hours and leclerc did 64 in 8. Then George did an average of less laps a session than ferrari... So mercedes did 122 laps in 8 hours of running, ferrari did 133, mclaren did 130, AM did 131. So as I said merc did less laps than most teams... George did more laps yes but he did it in 2 sessions so on average George did 61 laps a session which is lower than the average number of laps driven by a driver. Aka my first point is 100% correct. Again as stated Bahrain is a 58 lap circuit. Even if George did a long run of 10 or 15 laps from full load he would still have a very high fuel load by the end of his runs. Let's break that down. So if George started on a full load, enough for 58 laps, and did 15 laps. He would have gone from 100% fuel to about 74% fuel. (He would also have worn those tires down a reasonable amount). So if RB and ferrari were focused on fuel loads around 50% they would still have significantly less fuel than the merc. Even if they were looking at fuel loads starting at 75% they would be on 75% fuel on new tires vs George on 15 lap old tires. So It's impossible to compare times without knowing what fuel load everyone was on. And yet in test one last year the fastest time was 1.5 seconds slower than Max this year. We can't pretend Max was taking it easy when he goes and gains 1.5 seconds on the same session last year. So yeah I didn't make anything up in my own head.
I read "more practice and experience in the car than almost any other driver had in theirs on the day means less speed" and quit reading the rest of your nonsense. George was on the later laps with a better rubbered track, as he did both sessions ...meaning more experience in learning the car and it's limits than 80% of the other drivers.. several long runs..probably with a myriad of setups and fuel loads...cuz that's what teams do in testing.(not some nonsense about every run with 75% or more load).....and still slower than other drivers on 5 other teams..... It's not definitive...but it's not 100% comforting for Merc either...
>I read "more practice and experience in the car than almost any other driver had in theirs on the day means less speed" and quit reading the rest of your nonsense. You should maybe reread my comment then because I never said this. What I did say was that as George did less laps per session than the average he had plenty of time to refuel his car. Meaning your claim that "but with 128 laps when most drivers put in 70 or less... it's pretty much impossible they had every lap with a full tank of gas" was complete nonsense. >George was on the later laps with a better rubbered track, as he did both sessions ...meaning Good for him. Unsure why you think it's worth mentioning as I never said otherwise. >more experience in learning the car and it's limits than 80% of the other drivers.. several long runs..probably with a myriad of setups and fuel loads...cuz that's what teams do in testing.(not some nonsense about every run with 75% or more load).....and still slower than other drivers on 5 other teams..... As is the case with Merc literally every year... They have a testing plan focused on reliability and data, not on one lap pace. They have done the same thing for like 10 years now at this point my guy. They are always lower in testing than they are come quali in the first race. So what we have discovered is that none of your logic holds up to any serious scrutiny. Glad we worked that out.
You doomposters really love drama. Its going to be extremely fun when the season ends again with Merc P2 over Macca, Ferrari, and AMR.
Yeah you do know that last season Merc got P2 by pure lack, and a completely unfair penalty for Sainz in Vegas, right?
And a bastard hybrid of two different approaches to designing a car
Oh dear.... It's going to hurt even more for you when you see how impressive the Mercedes race pace was today...
I have not seen the stats how was race pace overall?
lol why so mad? The race is next week and Red Bull will dominate regardless of the order of the 9 backmarker teams.
It was not more impressive than what Aston , Ferrari or Maclaren showed.
You make your own luck.
Based on data, it looks like they stuck to long runs today. Doing three separate long runs including a full race run according to Mercedes twitter account. A fan account posted George’s times here: https://x.com/mercedesnewsuk/status/1760336540239122784?s=46 Kravitz asked John Owen (Mercedes Chief Designer) about the W15 today and he said “hats off to our aero team”. https://x.com/mercedesnewsuk/status/1760294655382442467?s=46 Overall the entire camp seems happy.
>Kravitz asked John Owen (Mercedes Chief Designer) about the W15 today and he said “hats off to our aero team”. This is a bit misleading. Ted was saying hats off to him for the new wing so his reply was to acknowledge he wasn't the only one involved more than anything else. Not worth reading anything into it
Hamilton the next day: The car is un-drivable
Bono my tires
I told you to change the driver position ... Not _that_ way!!!!
Lewis we know car is bad, please drive it.
see you 6 rounds in when they say "we won't truly know the performance of the car until the summer break"
Or there is a lot for them to learn how to dial in the car and currently can’t dial it in compared to the top. They probably will close in but for such a new design it will take them some time.
i mean both points can be true too
Agreed just stating that they probably have a lot of learning to dial in the car vs others.
When I used to race karts, supple, good handling karts were always slow. Why? Because they were never fast enough to stress the chassis. I wonder if it’s similar for carbon monocoque beasts
>"We're focused on ourselves at this test, and it will only be next week where we see where we stack up against the others.” So basically the car is still a lemon, just a nicer lemon. Bloody norah.
"Fuck this looks fast"
"Fuck this feels nicer"
“Fuck, this is comfy to drive”
*cue way more porpoising than ever before*
“the car feels good, much more bouncier than before, amazing!”
lol the only time the car was nicer to drive was the test version 😂
i’m not sure if this will ever not be funny
I was forecast a faster car
It probably won't be when your team isn't first anymore.
the salt
The pepper.
yep, Merc is bringing the salt while Red Bull is bringing the pepper, you are right about that
I mean rb have produced a master piece of a car. Hats of to the engineers there. They do probably have 2024 and 2025 locked down. My excitement is really for 2026 when we learn if they can make their own engine well.
Finally a bit of positive feedback from their camp. It's been a bit morose ever since their car launch.
Yeah it’s all very very reserved. Probably overloaded with data, and unsure about how things will play out.
It started positive last year but by the end of Race week 1, Toto was pissed and saying they knew after testing this car was shit and he decided to switch to the B spec they already prepared. We'll just have to wait and see.
wait until next week. I've been in this rollercoaster before...
Merc weren’t doing any kind of performance running anyway. The problem Merc have is just trying to develop. They’re not stuck or unstable like they were in the zeropod, it’s just they have lost a lot of time and the new philosophy isn’t maximised like the teams who’ve been on a set path for a while now. If their development rate is really good they can definitely get closer to the front.
They already had rapid development pace with their last two cars. But now since they also aren't diagnosing issues hopefully it's full steam ahead on performance.
Well, HOPEFULLY they aren't diagnosing issues. We'll see.
Issues are more likely to appear when you are actually pushing. But yeah, it seeme they are somewhat confident
This is why I dislike the cost cap. Without it mercedes probably would have been developing both concepts and while I suspect redbull would still be on top it would be a bit more exciting wondering if mercedes had caught up.
With current rules in place, what Verstappen did last season is very likely to happen again in the near future. Either with Verstappen again just breaking his own records or another driver for another team once 2026 rolls around. You're limited to what you can spend, you're limited to what/when/how much you can test, you're limited to how much/when you can develop. The rules in place just prevent catching up. You either get it right from the start, or you don't. And if you mess up in-between, you're screwed until the next time regulations change. The rules have to change if they want someone to catch Red Bull. The rules will have to change if they want to catch Mercedes in 2026 and beyond as they're allegedly way ahead on the engine project.
I agree the rules have to change. This isn't anti red bull, I dont want to see any team dominate like this without others able to catch up.
When there were no caps Ferrari dominated because they had a silly budget, they had a private test track, and would just spend hundreds of hours testing the car in secret. Yes, the limits can cripple a team, but also reward teams with smart spending like Aston Martin and McLaren. And punishes teams that would normally rely in their hegemony.
I am against a cost cap not against private testing bans which were in place long before the cost cap. It is a difficult balance to find but for me if a team cannot afford to be at the pinnacle of motorsports then they shouldn't be there. I watch F1 for innovation and incredible engineering not for incredible budgeting.
I think cost cap has its benefits in that we’re not talking about teams going under every couple of years. That being said I think it should be raised, the fact teams can’t even explore majorly different concepts isn’t good in my opinion.
Teams ability to administer themselves has always been part of F1; Williams used to be able to do it and be competitive, Red Bull to an extent as well as they managed to beat Ferrari with a difference in budget that was in the ballpark of 100M. The most expensive car does not mean a faster car, innovation also comes from having to adapt to situations instead of grinding the money and see if something happens.
Yeah I really dont want the 17 to 19 years back when the midfield was about 2 seconds back per lap. Also when were Williams last "competitive"
100%
Ah yes we all remember the clean sweep Ferrari championships back to back with no escaping it. Absolutely needed a cost cap to put a stop to that… they haven’t won a title in over 15 years, I really don’t think hampering Ferrari really needs to be the top priority!
you are either willfully ignorant or have no idea what you are talking about. from 1999 to 2004 Ferrari had the fastest car by a mile because they could spend and test unlimited. Only a targeted ban on their tyres did anything, and even then they were really fast again in 2006-2008. Then we had 4 years of Red Bull, even though we had good competition in those years, and then we had 8 years of Mercedes. So no, domination happens also without the cost cap, and chances would be it still would be Mercedes because of the massive budget they had.
During the season they would keep developing the car having Schumacher and Barichello drive sometimes 100 hours per week in a track where no one could see what they were working on. The rest of the teams were sharing Silverstone which is why they had to use camouflage paint to avoid others seeing what they were testing.
Change the regulations every year.
100% agree, it's frustrating that people think we just don't want RedBull or Max to keep winning, it's not that at all. RedBull and Max deserve to win, they built the best car and he's an amazing driver and they should reap the rewards for their hardwork. The problem is that F1 has made it impossible for teams to catch anyone who has an advantage like this. The budget cap, the banning of any tech remotely in the grey area etc... prevents teams from being able to focus on the current season to catch up. Instead they have to throw away entire seasons, and focus on the following year, but the team who is already winning can do the same thing, so they're ahead already and can still focus on the car for next year. If they aren't going to make changes that could help teams catch up mid season, then they need to change the car regulations every 2 years at the least, that way a team can only dominate for 2 years at the most, before everyone at least gets a chance to be capable of fighting for wins again. We have to stop using the exuse that "this is always the ways it's been," because it doesn't have to be. We can and should have competition for wins every year, the fact that we didn't have any competition last year after all these attempts to bring the field together should have been a massive red flag and the sport should have been looking into ways to resolve this, because I guarantee this season will be exactly like last year except it'll be a full sweep for RedBull. We have so much talent right now on the grid, and it's a shame to just see it wasted because we're stuck with this idea that dominance is how F1 should be. It doesn't have to be this way, we saw in 2021 that we can have two teams battling it out every week, and it can be insanely exciting, and honestly to me we need to see a lot more teams competing for wins like we saw in 2010. We should never go into a weekend knowing who is going to win the race, otherwise what's the point of following the sport. Watching the midfield battles is alright, but let's be honest, what most people genuinely care about is watching drivers battling for wins.
2021 was because the FIA and F1 did everything they could to weaken Mercedes. All the rule changes were put in to basically weaken the W11 strengths. These new cars were supposed to bring back an evening field with several members of the F1 hierarchy saying if someone runs away with it, rules will change to even it up, still waiting on that...
That's not remotely true about 2021 The changes were made to slow down the 2020 cars or at least ensure any development keeps them in place, because the 2022 cars were supposed to debut in 2021, and Pirelli did not have the ability to make a new tyre compound to deal with higher loads from 2020 v2 cars Before the season, everyone expected that all the changes made would favour a low rake design of car, like Mercedes. People were fairly split on whether it would be better for high or low rake cars, with both approaches loosing significant downforce. Ultimately, it was easier to balance the high rake cars, hence Merc and AM struggling a lot with balance and hence being slower. And by end of the season, Merc fixed their balance issues and were the definite fastest car https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.what-does-the-2021-aero-rules-change-mean-for-the-cars-and-which-teams-will.4UDFqT5FCn6Ix49mcn0wDt.html >But the initial effect, as the teams put these new spec floors in simulation, might be expected to have more impact upon the high-rake cars (such as the Red Bull and others) than those optimised around a low rake angle (such as the Mercedes and Racing Point).
they literally delayed the rule changes by 1 year to make sure Lewis would get his 8th title edit: ofc i get downvoted. So it is okay to make up theories saying the FIA targeted Mercedes which we know isnt the case. But the other way around isnt okay?
That's ridiculous, they delayed the rule changes because of the logistics of covid.
just like it is ridiculous to say that the rule changes were targeted at Mercedes., but you didnt make a comment saying that about u/WavingWookiee comment. -> Bias
They extended the new cars until 2022. They could have just kept the same regs for 2021 in the realm of cost caps and control yet they didn't, did they really need to update the rules for a single season? They didn't because the W11 was a monster and they wanted a closer grid, there was no reason to change anything for 2021 other than to close the field
All of what you are saying is just false. But i dont think you actually care about what is true and what isnt. you just want to push the narrative of the merc being the victim. Getting targeted by the FIA lmao 2020 had quiet a few tire failures and pirelli wasnt sure if they could make better tires for 2021 as they were working on the tires for the new regs and didnt predict that they had to make stronger versions of the current tires. The cars in 2021 would simply have been too fast, putting to much load on the tires. So fia decided to reduce the downforce, which takes load of the tires.
1. everything you are writing was already like this for 7 out of 10 teams before the cap. 2. it isnt like RB and Ferrari caught up in 2015, no it took them at least 3 years or more. 3. Mclaren and Aston clearly proved that you can make significant steps forward. 4. "attempts to bring the field together" - how are they attempts when they objectively did that. The gap from p1 to p20 has never been smaller. 5. it wasnt a full sweep and the fact that it nearly was, is actually surprising considering that in quiet a few races they were outright the fastest car. Like Vegas or Canada. But they got lucky at every turn kinda. Or in Monaco when Alonso pitted for slicks. Had they pitted for inters he could have won that. 6. 2021 after relatively stable regs from 2014 onwards with mid sized changes in 2017. **So from than one another 4 years** feels like an biased opinion tbh, where you also that vocal about the Merc domination that things must absolutely change asap. + RB domination was like 1,5 years. Mercedes 3 + 2 years
[удалено]
Thats not going to work because most of the cost are employees, and you cant just fire half your employees every year because you did good in the WCC
It's almost always worse for dominance without a cost cap, not sure how people don't understand that. Yes, maybe for 2022/23 it might have been a closer fight for first, even if the gaps for the whole field would become huge, but maybe merc would make the fastest car again and it might have been even worse :D Historically (in any sport) the team with the largest budget will eventually be the fastest/best. There are also a lot of other factors that contributed to last year. Near perfect reliability from almost all teams (makes it impossible to compare to earlier eras), the second fastest car kept changing from race to race, etc. Instead of chasing a team with development limits and the same amount of money as you, you end up chasing someone with no limitations and more money than you... Like we just had a few years ago :D Overall the field is closer than ever. It's just used as a scape goat by people because they need something to complain about IMO. EDIT: I would not mind removing the cost cap, because it invites crazier innovations and more experimentation, but in terms of competitive integrity and a close field it's a no brainer :)
You can’t magic 18 months lost development time. Merc look ok and that’s probably it.
That's based on an assumption that they're starting from a pre-2022 baseline. That clearly isn't the case.
But is because RBR are effectively 18 months ahead as a result of the change
Nobody thinks that Merc are fighting Red Bull. A good result is if Merc have the second fastest car. And from how the car looked, if the car isn't in the fight for second, it will be with some performance upgrades
👆 game over for 2024, RB = WCC & WDC
The betting market sure seems to think that is the case.
Yeah essentially this
Could be but reality is that it’s a brand new design they need to play catch up. I think they will be okay but not close to RBR
They need a good foundation. If they have that with the W15, it will be good news and we can expect good development gains throughout the season. The problem the last 2 seasons has been that they have a terrible foundation that they can't build around and so they're constantly chasing. McLaren took such a large leap last year because they had a stable foundation to build off of even if it was super slow to start. Ferrari and Merc had key fundamental flaws that prevented them from improving all that much but Merc were certainly more limited than the teams around them hence the drop off in form 2nd half of the season.
I don't think any team was doing performance running.
That’s great to hear, tbh. If they’re not concerned about finding the “sweet spot” then it means they have found a solid window for setups and such which was one of their biggest issue the last two years.
Hmmm, I'll wait for Ham. Not that he isnt right but George is usually kinder with these things
Actually George was pretty on point about his prediction and how good the W14 was during his interview after the testing. If anything Lewis and Toto were far more optimistic back then
George also openly said last year after the Bahrain race that Red Bull had the chance to win every race that season. He got lots of flak from fans at the time but it turned out to be true.
Yep he was true in his assessment about how dominant redbull were but fans were not willing to accept it. Now we are talking if they can go unbeaten this season which was something no one was talking about last year. Just shows how great their car is
Do you think we won’t really know about Mercedes until Qualifying first race of the season? They seem to be the real unknown
Everyone is an unknown. Ferrari weren't showing their full hand either. I think McLaren is the closest to Red Bull and they were still 1.6 seconds behind Verstappen which indicates they weren't showing their full hand. We can only really know more next weekend. There's almost nothing the fans can take from testing. Remember when the W13 was 1-2 in Barcelona testing? Yeah me too.
I honestly cant remember that day...can you show me? I can only find this and neither sound happy https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-in-a-much-better-place-after-final-day-of-f1-testing/10436726/
I am unable to find George’s interview with Ted Kravitz after the test where he basically says that car is not upto the level where they want it to be and were waiting for first major upgrades on the car after few races.
The long run pace of the merc looked quite good. Still. Testing is testing
Russell's race sim looked encouraging, particularly as they are bound to make improvements to setup, etc., and was certainly quite a bit faster than their race sim(s) during last pre-season testing. For context, however, Russell's final stint is only barely faster than Max's last stint in the Bahrain GP (who, we know, was heavily managing pace). Early days still...
I accept the context, however, there are other factors to include. It was encouraging relative to other long runs today (we don't know fuel loads). I don't think it makes much sense to compare to last years race though. Heavy pushing, different tyres, etc. Just hope we don't have a repeat of last year's dominance
It's already been a better test than the last couple of years. In 22 and 23 they couldn't do more than a few laps without a mistake.
"Engine feels good, much slower than before. Amazing"
Can we ask Lewis?
Anecdotal warning: "When I left McLaren and got in the Red Bull for the first tests I felt the Red Bull was a lot nicer to drive than the McLaren. But then we went to the first race and we weren't at the pace of the leaders! I realized that sometimes it's actually the quicker cars that are less comfortable to drive and if a car feels nice maybe it's actually a slow car!" - David Coulthard
So atleast he’ll be nice and comfortable when he comes 4th or 5th I guess.
Russell next week: "Mercedes might have two free seats next year"
Feels nicer, much slower than before?
Less purpoising would already be a big win, I'm sure that Merc will show some more speed in the next few days.
Better be back to dominating, tired of having no F1 to watch.
A MX5 would feel nicer to drive, but that does not mean it is faster.
I think the W15 is probably faster than an MX5 but I guess we’ve never seen both on a track at the same time before so who knows for sure
Yes, there is no way we could humanly figure out which is faster. It is impossible.
We need to summon the Stig
Stability is a thing.
I mean tbh the w14 probably had a bit more lap time in it but the car was so unstable Lewis and George couldn't always trust it enough to really drive it. So nicer to drive does generally help a car be faster.
Red Bull may yet prove that Mercedes (and Mike Elliott) should have stuck to their guns. The rumor is that the RB20 - if it works - will run zeropods at Suzuka.
The zero pods itself may not have even been the problem. The RB floor is the best on the grid.
It's almost as if merc spent a year saying "the issue isn't the zero pods". The issue was always the stability of the platform and the floor.
Yeah, the issue was getting the performance out of the floor that they saw in the simulator. And then the floor height got raised for 2023 which crippled their concept. Red Bull might switch to an overbody design that is similar to Mercedes, but it won't be the same concept as Mercedes.
Of course I don't know for sure.... But the proof is that the W13 is the design that actually managed to win a race for Mercedes (so far) in the last two years. So.... Maybe there was something there is all I'm saying. That said, after watching the morning session in Bahrain I don't subscribe to the belief the RB20 lifts directly from the W13 or W14. Maybe at most it has sections inspired by them but the execution looks totally different and does look like a radical reboot of their RB18 and RB19 ideas.
Red Bull are getting there a better way though. It looks like they started with fairly simple looking sidepods/engine covers etc. (comparatively speaking) and nailed the floor and suspension which are the key factors of the car. Now they’ve clearly spent a lot of effort working on the cooling of the car and if the testing confirms that they can cool it with smaller inlets (but more of them) then they presumably they can do more with the aero on the side pods and possibly shrink them. Mercedes could do something similar once they’ve confirmed their chassis/floor/suspension are all performing well but they’ve done it in a higgledy piggledy way.
I cannot even judge if Red Bull have nailed it or whether they slipped. Hard to watch testing, but you can tell which teams at least appeared comfortable by seeing who set a quick-ish lap and then settled into a race simulation. And by that token I think we're looking at Red Bull, Ferrari, Aston Martin, and McLaren as the ones who did that.
I think I recall Mercedes, or one of their drivers saying that if you took out the side pods of the Red Bull, Red Bull would still be faster than them.
And on the other end, Adrian Newey was asked about the zeropod W13 and I recall he also said that: "If Mercedes can make it work.... they will be very fast." Which is of course, high praise. But I guess, Mercedes figured it was gamesmanship rather than a true assessment.
I’d bet a paycheck on it still being slow
I bet it’ll feel even “nicer” next year.
where was lewis? why was he missing from practice?
He drives both sessions today
There are 3 days of practice, with 2 sessions each day. Only one car can be run at a time, so some teams split each day and some do 1 solid day for each driver. Mercedes does 1 solid day for each.
Nice and slow.
I assume W15 will be build more around Russel than Hamilton.
Russell in 9 months: "I knew the car was shit from the get-go" (I am not actually hoping for that)
It’s a tractor though sadly
Source?
George's time was better by 0.06 seconds over last year and he finished in the middle of the pack. Max improved 1.4 seconds.
Are you suggesting that the RB is faster than last years car by 1.4 secs on raw pace? Look at the telemetry data, the merc long run pace was good, and they had one of the lowest top speeds and lowest full throttle times. Not saying it's RB beating, but it's by no means a tractor.
Relative to the first day of testing. Last year, Max ran it in 1:32:837; this year in 1:31:344. George was 1:34:174 and 1:34:109, respectively. There are drivers that were significantly slower this year, so all things with a grain of salt. That said, if we're not making sweeping pronouncements based off the limited data of the first day, what are we even doing here?
Not how it works, at all. It wasn't a qualifying session.
It's so nice Hamilton knew to jet to Ferrari already. Sure, good luck with it.
Don’t worry. Lewis will find a way to whinge about it.
Great, apparently drivers aren’t allowed to have a winning mindset anymore.
The 2nd fastest car is not garbage. Lewis needs to spend a few years as a back marker badly.
You never were in a competitive setting and wanted to win it and your comments clearly show that
I mean when the fastest car is so far ahead the second fastes kind of is garbage... Lewis is a top tier driver who wants to win. He needs a top tier car to have a chance at fighting for that. People who settle for second aren't the one's that succeed.