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It's generally extremely surface level content and generally low quality. They are definitely targeting inexperienced fans with all their articles.
Most everything they post can be summarized in a few words and the rest of the article is just filler and ads and useless speculation
Not to mention the auto playing video that follows you as you scroll and an embedded podcast. Are we supposed to watch a video, listen to a podcast and read the "article" at the same time?
Nothing really? Their YouTube content naturally targets inexperienced fans and is pretty simplistic, but from what I read their website has pretty decent content that's well-ish written and their podcast is pretty fascinating.
Nothing, I really like their content and the podcasts are fun
They also tend to resist tabloid-y news stories and only break things that are confirmed.
ya i saw their driver rankings and they put, how the hell was leclerc better than sainz in that race??, and how was russell better than both of them? But biggest one is HOW WAS ALONSO THIRD???
We hate The Race now?
Honestly see them as the independent rebel alliance to the evil [Motorsport.com](https://Motorsport.com) empire that took over their old publications and promptly let them all go.
At least you can go on their website with an ad-blocker tbh.....Motorsport.com really winds me up with the amount of ads pinging at you and won't let you go near it with an adblock on
Good. So many times it was just flat ignored because pulling a 5 second gap at the end of a race is too easy.
10 seconds will make teams much more likely to just give the position back. Which is great. Instead of watching one car pull a gap in free air, we get to watch that car attempt to pass legally again.
It is not that simple. And a 10 second penalty is almost always a far more severe penalty then giving the place back, which is why drivers often give the place back voluntarily in fear of a 5 second penalty. The problem was that sometimes the 5 seconds were not enough of a deterrent, but creating a 10 second gap is not only much more difficult, the 10 seconds penalty means there is a risk to lose more than one place.
I really think it should be “give the place back”.
Trading time for track position is a thing we’ve already seen drivers do and I’m just not a fan.
Give the place back or get a black flag and leave the race. It seems like that solves a lot of things. No need for a penalty.
I still think it should be a drive thru the pits. You don’t have to stop but you have to drive through the entirety of Pit row at proper speeds
But 10 seconds better then nothing
You should be the one in charge of writing this info. I'd much rather read your synopsis vs paragraphs of unimportant text and fucking ads all over the place.
So it looks like for instances where a driver gains a position by going off track (Rusell at Monza last year), the default penalty will now be 10s instead of 5.
This is great news, as it's harder to out-race a 10s time penalty.
The article suggests that there may be a wider review of penalties altogether.
Yeah, I think that if you cause a crash that’s enough to warrant action from the stewards in the first place, it’s probably bad enough to warrant a drive through or stop and go.
If you do something stupid/reckless enough to ruin someone else’s race, it’s fair for the penalty to ruin yours as well.
I think it should be: 5s for repeated track limits, pit lane speeding, moderately dangerous driving
10s for off-track overtakes and dangerous driving
DT for very dangerous driving or intentionally somewhat dangerous driving
SNG for intentional and very dangerous driving (basically the Schumacher way of things)
Very different in regards to time penalties, but nascar’s rule is either slow down immediately after cutting or stop and wait (pretty much until the train of cars has a gap) for 5-20 seconds then continue driving
It seems too harsh to me though.
Penalty should be to not make it worth to do illegal moves.
But not harsh enough that if you half of accidentally do them it absolutely ruins your race, specifically since half the times the fans and stewards completely disagree
it's not too harsh, time penalties right now are a joke that rarely impact the race unless there are extenuating circumstances like safety cars at the very end of the race to bunch everyone up again.
Track position is what's important and the penalties should be penalizing their track position not just arbitrary time penalties.
Time penalties are probably still ok for minor infractions (like basic track limits, etc.), but I agree that anything that is clearly deliberate or dangerous should be more severe.
i think they are okay for single-car infractions. like track limits as you said, or pitlane things, etc. But anything that involves another car need to be a drive through at minimum. I absolutely despise any sort of penalty system in sports that regularly **rewards** the people that commit the penalties. and f1's is exactly that.
Honestly I don’t like time penalties at all. I remember Sainz finishing 3rd on track when the race ended under the safety car and he ended up pointless because of a 10 second penalty, whereas the race leader getting a 10 second penalty 9 times out of 10 still wins the race
If you accidentally ruin someone else's race through your own mistake, your race getting impacted significantly too is totally fine. That happens half the time anyway just because of damage.
Getting punished with a drive-through for a mistake that was your fault and harmed another driver is completely proportionate.
> The article suggests that there may be a wider review of penalties altogether.
Please yes! It felt like there was far too many 5 sec penalties handed out last year and many penalties did not fit the crime.
Bring back drive thru penalties, bring back stop and go penalties, etc!
I'd like to see penalties be restructured to something like:
* 5 second time penalty or 1 position, whichever is worse
* 10 second time penalty or 2 positions, whichever is worse
I'd then treat the overtaking off-track as the new 5 second penalty.
Sounds reasonable for me. 5 seconds makes sense for minor things like track limits or pit stop procedure, but overtaking off track always felt like a more major infraction. In the spirit of racing, if you can't overtake on the track, you don't deserve the place, and it can massively change the race of the cars involved.
As the article mentioned, there's been a few times when someone's passed off track and not bothered to give the place back, and the 5 second penalty is small enough that it doesn't really matter. Once they're past they can usually make up that 5 seconds, or gain some more places that they wouldn't have got otherwise.
Definitely needs to be more consistent, but like you, I’m much more on the fence about track limit violations and speeding in the pit lane.
Those don’t directly disadvantage another driver in the same way that causing a collision or overtaking off track does so I don’t think there’s as much of an incentive to break them. Speeding in the pit lane is obviously a safety concern for pit crews if it’s egregious enough but with track limits, you’re really only hurting yourself most of the time.
>but with track limits, you’re really only hurting yourself most of the time.
Ehh I disagree. There are a ton of places where running just outside track limits can easily earn you a tenth or more. Austria T10 is the most obvious one but T2 in France, Stowe in Silverstone, or T19 in COTA also come to mind.
You can actually see good examples of these watching the pole laps from 2020 when the track limits included the kerbs. Guys are using every bit of the circuit and it's kinda awesome ngl.
I'm likely in the minority here, but I don't think that's practical. Sometimes investigations take time and the severity of a penalty shouldn't scale with the time it takes the stewards to make a call.
Just an example:
Driver A overtakes driver B off track:
Option A (ideal): Driver A recognizes his mistake and gives back the position immediately.
Option B: Driver A thinks he made a fair overtake and keeps going.
Now if the stewards decide it's a penalty within 30 seconds, that works out quite fine. The position is handed back, everything works as intended.
If the stewards take 3 laps to decide, driver A may have already overtaken other cars and/or pulled a significant gap. The punishment is now significantly more severe, simply because the stewards wasted time and driver A lost 3 laps of effective progress.
If we also take into account that the more arguable it is whether or not the overtake was even illegal, the more time it will take, then it just seems to unduly punish people in edge cases.
The problem with the current approach of harsher penalties, is, that we will now be seeing drivers give back positions for overtakes which may have been completely legitimate overtakes because they want to avoid the potential penalty.
It's hard for drivers and teams to judge. It should be the stewards who does that. It's their job, and they have access to more camera angles. The drivers can't see sh\*t, and the teams can only see onboards and the live feed.
They managed to make orders to give back positions it work in the past. They can make it work again.
Logistically doesn't work. Races are fast paced and the decision is never going to be instant. Teams know when their drivers pass off track and are in a better place to police it quicker.
When a driver passed and now has a gap before they decide they have to give it back it makes a difficult situation.
That doesn't really change anything when you think about it though. Sure, they can ask the driver to give the place back but the driver isn't forced to follow that command.
If they ignore it, what happens then? They get a penalty. So in reality the situation is exactly the same.
You can make that penalty much harsher though. Right now you have a situation where the amount of seconds can be super harsh in case of a safety car finish, or nowhere near harsh enough because a faster car just drives off into the distance. Giving the place back makes things predictable, and if you overtook another car since the incident, tough luck should have let the car you overtook off track back yourself.
Then if they ignore instructions to give the position back you can give them a drive through penalty or straight up black flag them.
What you're suggesting is that the penalty in the article should be increased to a drive through then? That's an entirely different conversation to whether they should ask them to give the place back or not.
If they overtake someone off track there are two things that can happen afterwards, either they give the place back and don't get a penalty or they don't give the place back and get a penalty. Whether they are asked to give the place back or not shouldn't have any impact on the severity of the penalty.
It should. It should be up to the FIA to make the call if the overtake was illegal. Then they get *told* to give the place back, instead of having to gamble. Then if they ignore instructions from race control give a harsh penalty.
A driver could still give the place back themselves to avoid any penalty.
A harsh penalty like that would make giving the position back the most appealing option. I think most drivers/teams would give up the position or even two if necessary to avoid a drive through. So on track we would see cleaner racing and drivers being more likely to give back the position because there is no incentive to keep it if you know you passed off track.
It’s not the same though, at least the teams will know for certain that they will get a penalty if they do not give back the place (or not). Right now they have to guess if the move will be deemed illegal or not, which is not always clear.
F1 had no rules to give it back. The teams tell them to give it back to race control doesn’t penalize. In IndyCar race control will tell you to give it back for any illegal overtake or blocking and if you don’t it’s at minimum a drive through. So even if you’ve gained 2 positions since then, you’ll want to give it back. There is never really benefit for keeping the position
Yeah but you're basically just arguing that the penalty for overtaking off track should be a drive through, which is a perfectly valid argument but shouldn't depend on whether they're asked to give the position back or not.
Either they don't ask them to give the place back and then give a penalty or they do ask them to give the place back and then give a penalty, I don't see why the penalty should be any different in either case.
No I don’t think it should be a drive through. The penalty should be returning the position and the penalty for refusing to listen to race control is a drive through in f1 for a first offense and a black flag for a second. No need to change that.
The problem is we don’t have a penalty that requires you to return the position. So we have these time penalties as a proxy for it. If you’ve already been passed separately when race control decides then I think 5 or 10 is fine
Yes, and?
The point of making the penalty harsher is to eliminate the gamesmanship we saw in the past years where taking the penalty was worth it to pass a car. I want to watch people pass on track, not blatantly shortcut the track. Overly light penalties encourage rule breaking.
It doesn't seem like you're understanding what they wrote.
The penalty that person advocates is giving back the spot. So, essentially no penalty, just you don't get to keep an ill gotten overtake. Failure to give back the position after being told to do so is what would get you disqualified. Not the overtake itself.
I agree it's over the top but the point is to eliminate the off track overtakes entirely, not have them be a game of "is this worth it"
My point is that the expectation is already for the driver to give the place back. "Giving the position back" is not a penalty that can be given.
They're never going to make it a DSQ for not giving the place back. What if the car immediately loses a place to another driver? Then the overtaker can't possibly give the position back and then gets disqualified.
Right? I remember Ralf Schumacher getting a 10 second stop-go penalty for touching the pit exit line 23 years ago or so.
The penalties have tended to become more "equal to the time gained by the transgressor/time lost by the victim" instead of a complete deterrent, like a 10 second stop-go used to be.
Well it's already increased from 5 to 10 seconds, maybe it'll increase to a drive through in the future.
There isn't really any difference between the two cases though.
Overtaking off track should either result in a penalty or giving the place back. Whether race control asked to give the place back or not shouldn't affect the severity of the penalty
There aren’t rules for it and after the fia fucked it up with max and Hamilton while negotiating with teams I doubt they will try it again. Teams are free to make the call themselves if they want.
Until the rules change so the stewards can force it there is no point in telling the teams anything.
They don’t have to negotiate though, all they have to do is make clear to the team that they will get a penalty if they do not give back the place, or they are free to keep the place. That way nobody has to guess and no negotiating takes place either.
That is already clear to all teams. Teams just decided it’s not worth giving back the spot because it can cost more than the penalty.
What you’re suggesting is already how it’s handled.
It’s not how it’s handled. After 2021 they no longer tell the teams if they have to give back the place or not. They have to make their own judgement and guess if the stewards will penalise the overtake (previously 5s, now 10s). The teams might think their overtake was not illegal because for example their driver was pushed off, therefore keep the place and expect not to get penalised. The extra clarity regarding if they would be penalised or not wouldn’t hurt imo. Just tell them to give back the place immediately or you *will* receive a penalty, or you’re free to keep it.
>The new rules for 2022 mean drivers are expected to voluntarily give up any places or lap time gained through an unfair advantage. Those who do not do so risk being investigated by the stewards and retrospectively penalised.
Teams don’t need to be constantly babied they understand the rules. They are given a chance to give the place back or will be penalized.
So while it doesn’t have the hand holding like you want it’s essentially the same thing as you said give the place back or get penalized.
I don’t think teams need to be told they went off track they already know. If a team doesn’t realize they went off track they have some work to do
There is no need for this obsessive hand holding.
You act like every incident is a slam dunk penalty or completely fine. Usually it’s somewhere in between. Everybody who has watched F1 for a decent amount of time knows that the only consistent thing about the stewards is their inconsistency.
No I just don’t think teams need to be babysat.
Everyone knows where track limits are and the issue hasn’t been the close calls but teams deciding that the penalty was less than giving the place back.
1. Nobody actually knows if teams have been deliberately not giving places back because they can gain the penalty back besides a couple isolated incidents mentioned in the article. They might’ve thought they were in the right to hold the place.
2. It’s not only about track limits, there’s mitigating circumstances like avoiding contact, being pushed off, wet surfaces, etc.
3. Why are you so against clarity in a sport decided by such fine margins?
There is literally radio messages of teams saying to push down the road in case we get 5 seconds.
I’m not against clarity just don’t think the teams need to be babied.
That Browning move was actually sublime, he went around the outside of 2 cars in T4, was squeezed off there by the car he was overtaking not leaving da space, and because his right front wheel was 2cm over the white line, he gets a bullshit penalty (meanwhile nothing for the car that pushed him there)
FIA stewards are backwards, sometimes.
Didn't see the action but just commenting on this part: "**2cm** over the white line".
This is irrelevant. There is a limit and it was over. You can't just say "it's only 2cm so it's fine".
It's more the fact it took herculean effort to give us what would've ended up one of the best overtaking manuevers of the season and due to a minor technicality that was more the fault of another driver, it gets stricken from the record
Aren't we supposed to be promoting the little overtaking we get, instead of finding ways of making sure it doesn't happen and people will be less likely to try again in the future for fear of getting a penalty?
Disagree. It's like in football, even if the guy scores the best goal ever, if he was offside even by an inch, then the goal is canceled. Simple as that.
Basically, you can't pass the ball to a player in your team who is behind all players of the other team (to avoid attackers camping in the opponent field)
> “What is unclear is whether or not this will also apply to other incidents, like causing a collision or repeat track-limits offences (which normally add up to a five-second penalty).”
I like this a lot, but think that this logic should be applied across the board: give harsher penalties to discourage drivers in fast cars from intentionally breaking the rules, whether it’s overtaking off track, causing collisions, or violating track limits (this is the one I’m the most iffy about, though).
When it comes to causing collisions, I hate the idea that you can ruin someone else’s race and get away with it if you’re in a fast enough car.
Track limits I feel should leave the penalty somewhat to the discretion of the stewards - which i know is a whole other can of worms about consistency. It should matter whether its pushing the limits because it's a faster was to do the lap, or running off track in a way that loses time because you make a mistake. I don't really want to see drivers penalized for pushing too hard if they didn't gain anything from it.
Agree! There’s a huge difference between going wide in a corner because you made a goof or locked up, and blasting right through a chicane like you don’t give a fuck LOL. (Insert Alonso “he cut the chicane! It’s a YOKE!”)
I had the thought, don't count a violation if the driver lifts long enough to clearly lose time after.
Then I realized teams could do a hell of a lot of fuel saving by cutting chicanes and then lifting for a few 100m.
10s instead of 5s for overtaking off the track is a good change.
The only issue is that there is no penalty for forcing another driver off the track as long as you stay on the track, so this really just incentivizes drivers to push others off the track even harder.
But I still like the change since it was sometimes just worth it to go off and take the penalty in order to get past another car. That was just stupid and now it is much less likely to be worth it to intentionally break the rules.
Yeah, we see it all the time. One driver forces another off the track and is imediately on the radio saying : "He overtook me off the track, he has to give me back the position". It just rewards this kind of behaviour to the point where its a normalized strategy now.
I would agree with this change if they would ever enforce unclean driving from defenders. I liked the 5 second penalty as a way to circumvent that while still suffering. If you can pull a 5 second gap to make it worth it, you were probably stuck behind due to being repeatedly forced off track (outside of a few specific tracks)
Right!? Why did we go away from this? Now not only is it allowed to push people off, but we tell the drivers it is their right to do so and they are entitled to do it as long as they are “on the racing line.” It seems crazy. All the best battles are when both drivers stay on track anyway. If one gets pushed off now, they are forced to concede and the battle is always over after only one corner. Why do we allow this to happen?
Why don’t we have any drive through penalties anymore? There were multiple incidents last year were a driver got taken out, the other car was still in the race and just received a time penalty
It's not going to make much a difference because track position and clean air is so important in F1.
They should introduce joker laps that need to be taken within 2 laps of being told they need to do one. The joker lap should be about 5 seconds. This would be more penalising than a normal 5 second penalty and drivers can see immediate results. It will also increase the spectacle as the faster car will need to overtake again within the same stint, which fans will enjoy.
Apparently it's 10 seconds instead of 5 now if the driver goes off track and gains a position (presumably if they don't give back.)
The article references an F3 driver from the recent sprint race getting that penalty. It frankly felt pretty harsh in that particular race that I watched. It was a very minor amount out for an F3 driver, and they were visibly pretty close to alongside each other at that point. However, it's definitely a very needed change in F1. The fact that it's very often better to intentionally cut a chicane like George did last year and just take the penalty was a sign. Fun for him for forcing a rules change.
10 seconds is better than 5 but my preferred punishment would be to simply drop them a place. Overtook off track into first and then went 30 seconds ahead of the pack? Still going to end up in second.
I feel like it’s the only punishment that’s guaranteed to not have the driver thinking they can out drive the punishment.
Thing is the 10 second penalty in lieu of 5 in likely still worth it depending on the stage of the race & position
Drivers need a drive through/stop go penalty or points added to their license otherwise they’ll just keep on doing it.
When the field is this close, a 10 second penalty is still extremely hard to make up for unless it's a Mercedes/Ferrari doing it to a Williams.
Thing is with a 5 second penalty they started doing it to other Mclarens and Ferraris. That's when it got silly.
Much harder to create a 10 second Gap to a McLaren/Ferrari even with track position before the pitstop to serve it.
I liked the 5 second penalty *because* it allowed you to overtake if you were willing to suffer it. Most situations where a driver is capable of pulling a 5 second gap but can’t overtake is due to ignored dirty driving from the car defending. Unless they plan to start enforcing penalties for forcing cars off track, I don’t like the change.
I think there should be another for not serving it, I think I was max last year who got mine but his lead was so big they said forget it. It should have to be served during the race.
What do you do about late race penalties after all pit stops have been done though? You're basically saying any late race track limits or overtaking off track penalties should be a stop & go, which is a bit too extreme to me
Your definitely right, it's not a complete rule set in my head, but I do think saying "screw it, we won't serve it" should be a more harsh penalty. If it's late race then make it a drive through pitlane, maybe.
I think the driver at fault should just have to give the position back, regardless of what that costs them. The decision should be made quickly to prevent it from being too severe. If they are that much faster, they should be able to gain the position back, If they can't. That's on them.
5 seconds is sufficient most of the time imo. If it's clearly intentional and there's little intent to stay on track then sure, 10 seconds is better. But overall I think people complain about it too much.
See IMO its a step in the right direction but I feel like penalties in motorsports should be overly draconian. 5s penalties are nonsensical period. 10s should be the absolute minimum. For something like overtaking off track absolutely should be a drive through. Also time penalties should not be allowed to be served during a pitstop. There absolutely never should be any question as to breaking a rule can possibly be beneficial.
You're describing a stop and go penalty which already exists and is much more severe than 10 seconds.
The point of the 5 and 10 second penalties is that it adds the appropriate time without interrupting the driver's race. Forcing them into the pits when they wouldn't otherwise has a much bigger impact and is reserved for worse infringements.
Stop and go doesn't allow you to change tires/change anything on the car, even my suggestion still wouldn't be that harsh.
>adds the appropriate time without interrupting the driver's race
The point is to interrupt the drivers race because they didn't follow the rules. What's to stop Max Verstappen from cutting the Nouvelle Chicane on lap 1 in Monaco if he doesn't get pole? He can gap the field by 10 seconds in a matter of a dozen laps but he wouldn't be able to if properly stuck behind someone.
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
tldr: 10 instead of 5 seconds
You’re my hero
Anything to avoid clicking on a "The Race" article
What's so bad about the Race?
It's generally extremely surface level content and generally low quality. They are definitely targeting inexperienced fans with all their articles. Most everything they post can be summarized in a few words and the rest of the article is just filler and ads and useless speculation
They're the professional example of "my essay is 1 page, but I need 2 pages of filler to meet the 3 page requirement"
Apart from their essay is a quarter of a page to start with.
Yeah. Tried to watch a video and they just basically read Reddit headlines it seemed.
Not to mention the auto playing video that follows you as you scroll and an embedded podcast. Are we supposed to watch a video, listen to a podcast and read the "article" at the same time?
Yeah I get that, I liked them a lot when I was getting into F1 but started liking their content less and less.
Nothing really? Their YouTube content naturally targets inexperienced fans and is pretty simplistic, but from what I read their website has pretty decent content that's well-ish written and their podcast is pretty fascinating.
Nothing, I really like their content and the podcasts are fun They also tend to resist tabloid-y news stories and only break things that are confirmed.
Genuinely nothing.
They are Race-ist... also too many ads
Are they? I've not heard anything like that on their pods but plenty of baseless speculation
They really don't like drivers from another country... Specially Checo and Sainz
ya i saw their driver rankings and they put, how the hell was leclerc better than sainz in that race??, and how was russell better than both of them? But biggest one is HOW WAS ALONSO THIRD???
Seems unlikely that they're racist against Sainz but pro Alonso.
Hear hear
We hate The Race now? Honestly see them as the independent rebel alliance to the evil [Motorsport.com](https://Motorsport.com) empire that took over their old publications and promptly let them all go. At least you can go on their website with an ad-blocker tbh.....Motorsport.com really winds me up with the amount of ads pinging at you and won't let you go near it with an adblock on
I've hated the race for a long time
They haven't even existed for a long time. They're like 3 years old.
To be fair they were already around at the start of covid so has to be at least four years. But still, not very long indeed
Ok so I've hated them for about 3 years then
Yeah, the race is a nice breath of fresh air to the hell that is Motorsport.com
OUR VERDICT
\*our hero!
He's Actually Sympathy
Good. So many times it was just flat ignored because pulling a 5 second gap at the end of a race is too easy. 10 seconds will make teams much more likely to just give the position back. Which is great. Instead of watching one car pull a gap in free air, we get to watch that car attempt to pass legally again.
Typical F1 website: \[big-ass header\] \[menu\] \[ad\] 10 \[ad\] instead \[video unrelated to subject matter\] of \[please subscribe to our shitty newsletter\] \[ad\] 5 \[ad\] \[20 other articles that might interest you\] seconds \[ad\]
Bonus points when the video auto plays and it’s unclear how to stop it
And then it turns into a mini player and follows your scrolling action down the page so it’s always covering some content
I stopped using the site because of those style ads.
We are checking
You do know there's adblock for that, right?
Whenever I click on a link, I'm okay with giving websites the benefit of one popup. But if more than that show up, I am out.
Can’t wait till the first time it’s used and see how it plays out.
But only if it won't affect the championship, otherwise it's not investigated
naturally
Why don't they just mandate that you have to give the spot back?
Gets awfully messy if a car gets between the overtaken and the overtakee(?)
Then don’t overtake off track. Simple
It is not that simple. And a 10 second penalty is almost always a far more severe penalty then giving the place back, which is why drivers often give the place back voluntarily in fear of a 5 second penalty. The problem was that sometimes the 5 seconds were not enough of a deterrent, but creating a 10 second gap is not only much more difficult, the 10 seconds penalty means there is a risk to lose more than one place.
Too sensible.
Not all heroes wear capes!
I really think it should be “give the place back”. Trading time for track position is a thing we’ve already seen drivers do and I’m just not a fan. Give the place back or get a black flag and leave the race. It seems like that solves a lot of things. No need for a penalty.
I still think it should be a drive thru the pits. You don’t have to stop but you have to drive through the entirety of Pit row at proper speeds But 10 seconds better then nothing
You should be the one in charge of writing this info. I'd much rather read your synopsis vs paragraphs of unimportant text and fucking ads all over the place.
how to milk a sentence into a 4 minute read for us to show you 10 ads ???
Appreciate chuu
George Russell is going to be angry.
So it looks like for instances where a driver gains a position by going off track (Rusell at Monza last year), the default penalty will now be 10s instead of 5. This is great news, as it's harder to out-race a 10s time penalty. The article suggests that there may be a wider review of penalties altogether.
I genuinely would not be mad at the return of the drive-throughs as the minimum for anything other than track limits
drive-thru and especially stop-go should be used for actually ruining the race of somebody else willingly
Yeah, I think that if you cause a crash that’s enough to warrant action from the stewards in the first place, it’s probably bad enough to warrant a drive through or stop and go. If you do something stupid/reckless enough to ruin someone else’s race, it’s fair for the penalty to ruin yours as well.
I think it should be: 5s for repeated track limits, pit lane speeding, moderately dangerous driving 10s for off-track overtakes and dangerous driving DT for very dangerous driving or intentionally somewhat dangerous driving SNG for intentional and very dangerous driving (basically the Schumacher way of things)
Very different in regards to time penalties, but nascar’s rule is either slow down immediately after cutting or stop and wait (pretty much until the train of cars has a gap) for 5-20 seconds then continue driving
It seems too harsh to me though. Penalty should be to not make it worth to do illegal moves. But not harsh enough that if you half of accidentally do them it absolutely ruins your race, specifically since half the times the fans and stewards completely disagree
it's not too harsh, time penalties right now are a joke that rarely impact the race unless there are extenuating circumstances like safety cars at the very end of the race to bunch everyone up again. Track position is what's important and the penalties should be penalizing their track position not just arbitrary time penalties.
Time penalties are probably still ok for minor infractions (like basic track limits, etc.), but I agree that anything that is clearly deliberate or dangerous should be more severe.
i think they are okay for single-car infractions. like track limits as you said, or pitlane things, etc. But anything that involves another car need to be a drive through at minimum. I absolutely despise any sort of penalty system in sports that regularly **rewards** the people that commit the penalties. and f1's is exactly that.
Honestly I don’t like time penalties at all. I remember Sainz finishing 3rd on track when the race ended under the safety car and he ended up pointless because of a 10 second penalty, whereas the race leader getting a 10 second penalty 9 times out of 10 still wins the race
It increases the incentive to give the place back yourself instead of waiting for a penalty.
If you accidentally ruin someone else's race through your own mistake, your race getting impacted significantly too is totally fine. That happens half the time anyway just because of damage. Getting punished with a drive-through for a mistake that was your fault and harmed another driver is completely proportionate.
Yea I mean if you ruin somebodys race it should be a drive though at minimum
No
>The article suggests that there may be a wider review of penalties altogether. Oh that is good news. We need the DT to return for crashes
> The article suggests that there may be a wider review of penalties altogether. Please yes! It felt like there was far too many 5 sec penalties handed out last year and many penalties did not fit the crime. Bring back drive thru penalties, bring back stop and go penalties, etc!
And have a serious look at more objective ways of judging when penalties are handed out.
I'd like to see penalties be restructured to something like: * 5 second time penalty or 1 position, whichever is worse * 10 second time penalty or 2 positions, whichever is worse I'd then treat the overtaking off-track as the new 5 second penalty.
Sounds reasonable for me. 5 seconds makes sense for minor things like track limits or pit stop procedure, but overtaking off track always felt like a more major infraction. In the spirit of racing, if you can't overtake on the track, you don't deserve the place, and it can massively change the race of the cars involved. As the article mentioned, there's been a few times when someone's passed off track and not bothered to give the place back, and the 5 second penalty is small enough that it doesn't really matter. Once they're past they can usually make up that 5 seconds, or gain some more places that they wouldn't have got otherwise.
Penalties are basically rewards these days. 5 seconds should be for track limits and speeding in the pitlane. The rest should be 10s at minimum.
Definitely needs to be more consistent, but like you, I’m much more on the fence about track limit violations and speeding in the pit lane. Those don’t directly disadvantage another driver in the same way that causing a collision or overtaking off track does so I don’t think there’s as much of an incentive to break them. Speeding in the pit lane is obviously a safety concern for pit crews if it’s egregious enough but with track limits, you’re really only hurting yourself most of the time.
>but with track limits, you’re really only hurting yourself most of the time. Ehh I disagree. There are a ton of places where running just outside track limits can easily earn you a tenth or more. Austria T10 is the most obvious one but T2 in France, Stowe in Silverstone, or T19 in COTA also come to mind. You can actually see good examples of these watching the pole laps from 2020 when the track limits included the kerbs. Guys are using every bit of the circuit and it's kinda awesome ngl.
Super glad to see this happening. Always thought 5 seconds was too little
10s is still possible to "beat". I really want a drive-through, that would really end it all
Just tell them to give back the place again, I don’t see why they leave it up to the teams to decide if they should or shouldn’t do that.
I'm likely in the minority here, but I don't think that's practical. Sometimes investigations take time and the severity of a penalty shouldn't scale with the time it takes the stewards to make a call. Just an example: Driver A overtakes driver B off track: Option A (ideal): Driver A recognizes his mistake and gives back the position immediately. Option B: Driver A thinks he made a fair overtake and keeps going. Now if the stewards decide it's a penalty within 30 seconds, that works out quite fine. The position is handed back, everything works as intended. If the stewards take 3 laps to decide, driver A may have already overtaken other cars and/or pulled a significant gap. The punishment is now significantly more severe, simply because the stewards wasted time and driver A lost 3 laps of effective progress. If we also take into account that the more arguable it is whether or not the overtake was even illegal, the more time it will take, then it just seems to unduly punish people in edge cases.
The problem with the current approach of harsher penalties, is, that we will now be seeing drivers give back positions for overtakes which may have been completely legitimate overtakes because they want to avoid the potential penalty. It's hard for drivers and teams to judge. It should be the stewards who does that. It's their job, and they have access to more camera angles. The drivers can't see sh\*t, and the teams can only see onboards and the live feed. They managed to make orders to give back positions it work in the past. They can make it work again.
Logistically doesn't work. Races are fast paced and the decision is never going to be instant. Teams know when their drivers pass off track and are in a better place to police it quicker. When a driver passed and now has a gap before they decide they have to give it back it makes a difficult situation.
That doesn't really change anything when you think about it though. Sure, they can ask the driver to give the place back but the driver isn't forced to follow that command. If they ignore it, what happens then? They get a penalty. So in reality the situation is exactly the same.
You can make that penalty much harsher though. Right now you have a situation where the amount of seconds can be super harsh in case of a safety car finish, or nowhere near harsh enough because a faster car just drives off into the distance. Giving the place back makes things predictable, and if you overtook another car since the incident, tough luck should have let the car you overtook off track back yourself. Then if they ignore instructions to give the position back you can give them a drive through penalty or straight up black flag them.
What you're suggesting is that the penalty in the article should be increased to a drive through then? That's an entirely different conversation to whether they should ask them to give the place back or not. If they overtake someone off track there are two things that can happen afterwards, either they give the place back and don't get a penalty or they don't give the place back and get a penalty. Whether they are asked to give the place back or not shouldn't have any impact on the severity of the penalty.
It should. It should be up to the FIA to make the call if the overtake was illegal. Then they get *told* to give the place back, instead of having to gamble. Then if they ignore instructions from race control give a harsh penalty. A driver could still give the place back themselves to avoid any penalty.
That's fair enough but in reality the situation won't change at all except the penalty will be a drive through rather than 10 seconds
A harsh penalty like that would make giving the position back the most appealing option. I think most drivers/teams would give up the position or even two if necessary to avoid a drive through. So on track we would see cleaner racing and drivers being more likely to give back the position because there is no incentive to keep it if you know you passed off track.
It’s not the same though, at least the teams will know for certain that they will get a penalty if they do not give back the place (or not). Right now they have to guess if the move will be deemed illegal or not, which is not always clear.
F1 had no rules to give it back. The teams tell them to give it back to race control doesn’t penalize. In IndyCar race control will tell you to give it back for any illegal overtake or blocking and if you don’t it’s at minimum a drive through. So even if you’ve gained 2 positions since then, you’ll want to give it back. There is never really benefit for keeping the position
Yeah but you're basically just arguing that the penalty for overtaking off track should be a drive through, which is a perfectly valid argument but shouldn't depend on whether they're asked to give the position back or not. Either they don't ask them to give the place back and then give a penalty or they do ask them to give the place back and then give a penalty, I don't see why the penalty should be any different in either case.
No I don’t think it should be a drive through. The penalty should be returning the position and the penalty for refusing to listen to race control is a drive through in f1 for a first offense and a black flag for a second. No need to change that. The problem is we don’t have a penalty that requires you to return the position. So we have these time penalties as a proxy for it. If you’ve already been passed separately when race control decides then I think 5 or 10 is fine
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Surely overtaking a driver off the track is also intentionally not obeying the rules of the sport though. Where do you draw the line?
easy, every penalty is a DQ.
???
What do you mean?
‘Give back the place or be black flagged and disqualified from next weeks qualifying’ is a rule that will be followed.
All these replies are basically just arguing that the 10 second penalty in this article should be increased.
Yes, and? The point of making the penalty harsher is to eliminate the gamesmanship we saw in the past years where taking the penalty was worth it to pass a car. I want to watch people pass on track, not blatantly shortcut the track. Overly light penalties encourage rule breaking.
I agree that the penalty should be harsher. A DSQ is a bit much though. I think 10 seconds is probably ok. 5 seconds was definitely too lenient.
It doesn't seem like you're understanding what they wrote. The penalty that person advocates is giving back the spot. So, essentially no penalty, just you don't get to keep an ill gotten overtake. Failure to give back the position after being told to do so is what would get you disqualified. Not the overtake itself. I agree it's over the top but the point is to eliminate the off track overtakes entirely, not have them be a game of "is this worth it"
My point is that the expectation is already for the driver to give the place back. "Giving the position back" is not a penalty that can be given. They're never going to make it a DSQ for not giving the place back. What if the car immediately loses a place to another driver? Then the overtaker can't possibly give the position back and then gets disqualified.
In that case, it should be a much harsher penalty, i.e. drive-through.
i feel like drive throughs and stop and go penalties just dont exist anymore, and i dont understand why.
Right? I remember Ralf Schumacher getting a 10 second stop-go penalty for touching the pit exit line 23 years ago or so. The penalties have tended to become more "equal to the time gained by the transgressor/time lost by the victim" instead of a complete deterrent, like a 10 second stop-go used to be.
Well it's already increased from 5 to 10 seconds, maybe it'll increase to a drive through in the future. There isn't really any difference between the two cases though. Overtaking off track should either result in a penalty or giving the place back. Whether race control asked to give the place back or not shouldn't affect the severity of the penalty
Enforce a position penalty. If they don’t give the place back they will automatically go down 1 position at race end. Simple.
You vastly underestimate the stubbornness of drivers lmao
There aren’t rules for it and after the fia fucked it up with max and Hamilton while negotiating with teams I doubt they will try it again. Teams are free to make the call themselves if they want. Until the rules change so the stewards can force it there is no point in telling the teams anything.
They don’t have to negotiate though, all they have to do is make clear to the team that they will get a penalty if they do not give back the place, or they are free to keep the place. That way nobody has to guess and no negotiating takes place either.
That is already clear to all teams. Teams just decided it’s not worth giving back the spot because it can cost more than the penalty. What you’re suggesting is already how it’s handled.
It’s not how it’s handled. After 2021 they no longer tell the teams if they have to give back the place or not. They have to make their own judgement and guess if the stewards will penalise the overtake (previously 5s, now 10s). The teams might think their overtake was not illegal because for example their driver was pushed off, therefore keep the place and expect not to get penalised. The extra clarity regarding if they would be penalised or not wouldn’t hurt imo. Just tell them to give back the place immediately or you *will* receive a penalty, or you’re free to keep it.
>The new rules for 2022 mean drivers are expected to voluntarily give up any places or lap time gained through an unfair advantage. Those who do not do so risk being investigated by the stewards and retrospectively penalised. Teams don’t need to be constantly babied they understand the rules. They are given a chance to give the place back or will be penalized. So while it doesn’t have the hand holding like you want it’s essentially the same thing as you said give the place back or get penalized. I don’t think teams need to be told they went off track they already know. If a team doesn’t realize they went off track they have some work to do There is no need for this obsessive hand holding.
You act like every incident is a slam dunk penalty or completely fine. Usually it’s somewhere in between. Everybody who has watched F1 for a decent amount of time knows that the only consistent thing about the stewards is their inconsistency.
No I just don’t think teams need to be babysat. Everyone knows where track limits are and the issue hasn’t been the close calls but teams deciding that the penalty was less than giving the place back.
1. Nobody actually knows if teams have been deliberately not giving places back because they can gain the penalty back besides a couple isolated incidents mentioned in the article. They might’ve thought they were in the right to hold the place. 2. It’s not only about track limits, there’s mitigating circumstances like avoiding contact, being pushed off, wet surfaces, etc. 3. Why are you so against clarity in a sport decided by such fine margins?
There is literally radio messages of teams saying to push down the road in case we get 5 seconds. I’m not against clarity just don’t think the teams need to be babied.
I guess that makes too much sense.
That Browning move was actually sublime, he went around the outside of 2 cars in T4, was squeezed off there by the car he was overtaking not leaving da space, and because his right front wheel was 2cm over the white line, he gets a bullshit penalty (meanwhile nothing for the car that pushed him there) FIA stewards are backwards, sometimes.
Didn't see the action but just commenting on this part: "**2cm** over the white line". This is irrelevant. There is a limit and it was over. You can't just say "it's only 2cm so it's fine".
It's more the fact it took herculean effort to give us what would've ended up one of the best overtaking manuevers of the season and due to a minor technicality that was more the fault of another driver, it gets stricken from the record Aren't we supposed to be promoting the little overtaking we get, instead of finding ways of making sure it doesn't happen and people will be less likely to try again in the future for fear of getting a penalty?
Disagree. It's like in football, even if the guy scores the best goal ever, if he was offside even by an inch, then the goal is canceled. Simple as that.
Well I don't watch football and don't really understand the offside rule or why it's needed, but I'm sure that would annoy me just as much haha
Basically, you can't pass the ball to a player in your team who is behind all players of the other team (to avoid attackers camping in the opponent field)
> “What is unclear is whether or not this will also apply to other incidents, like causing a collision or repeat track-limits offences (which normally add up to a five-second penalty).” I like this a lot, but think that this logic should be applied across the board: give harsher penalties to discourage drivers in fast cars from intentionally breaking the rules, whether it’s overtaking off track, causing collisions, or violating track limits (this is the one I’m the most iffy about, though). When it comes to causing collisions, I hate the idea that you can ruin someone else’s race and get away with it if you’re in a fast enough car.
Track limits I feel should leave the penalty somewhat to the discretion of the stewards - which i know is a whole other can of worms about consistency. It should matter whether its pushing the limits because it's a faster was to do the lap, or running off track in a way that loses time because you make a mistake. I don't really want to see drivers penalized for pushing too hard if they didn't gain anything from it.
Agree! There’s a huge difference between going wide in a corner because you made a goof or locked up, and blasting right through a chicane like you don’t give a fuck LOL. (Insert Alonso “he cut the chicane! It’s a YOKE!”)
I had the thought, don't count a violation if the driver lifts long enough to clearly lose time after. Then I realized teams could do a hell of a lot of fuel saving by cutting chicanes and then lifting for a few 100m.
10s instead of 5s for overtaking off the track is a good change. The only issue is that there is no penalty for forcing another driver off the track as long as you stay on the track, so this really just incentivizes drivers to push others off the track even harder. But I still like the change since it was sometimes just worth it to go off and take the penalty in order to get past another car. That was just stupid and now it is much less likely to be worth it to intentionally break the rules.
Yeah, we see it all the time. One driver forces another off the track and is imediately on the radio saying : "He overtook me off the track, he has to give me back the position". It just rewards this kind of behaviour to the point where its a normalized strategy now.
I would agree with this change if they would ever enforce unclean driving from defenders. I liked the 5 second penalty as a way to circumvent that while still suffering. If you can pull a 5 second gap to make it worth it, you were probably stuck behind due to being repeatedly forced off track (outside of a few specific tracks)
Yeah, i hate when i see drivers pushing others off the track to overtake or defend. All the time you must leave the space.
Right!? Why did we go away from this? Now not only is it allowed to push people off, but we tell the drivers it is their right to do so and they are entitled to do it as long as they are “on the racing line.” It seems crazy. All the best battles are when both drivers stay on track anyway. If one gets pushed off now, they are forced to concede and the battle is always over after only one corner. Why do we allow this to happen?
This was applied in F3 in Bahrain when Luke Browning overtook off the track.
Why don’t we have any drive through penalties anymore? There were multiple incidents last year were a driver got taken out, the other car was still in the race and just received a time penalty
‘Send them my regards’ and they’ve sent them right back lol
10 seconds is good. 5 seconds wasn't enough to me.
It's not going to make much a difference because track position and clean air is so important in F1. They should introduce joker laps that need to be taken within 2 laps of being told they need to do one. The joker lap should be about 5 seconds. This would be more penalising than a normal 5 second penalty and drivers can see immediate results. It will also increase the spectacle as the faster car will need to overtake again within the same stint, which fans will enjoy.
Apparently it's 10 seconds instead of 5 now if the driver goes off track and gains a position (presumably if they don't give back.) The article references an F3 driver from the recent sprint race getting that penalty. It frankly felt pretty harsh in that particular race that I watched. It was a very minor amount out for an F3 driver, and they were visibly pretty close to alongside each other at that point. However, it's definitely a very needed change in F1. The fact that it's very often better to intentionally cut a chicane like George did last year and just take the penalty was a sign. Fun for him for forcing a rules change.
Go ahead and set up Ocon with all the possible penalties they listed at the end of the article.
Great news. Now start punishing drivers for blatantly pushing others off the track and we're all set.
10 seconds is better than 5 but my preferred punishment would be to simply drop them a place. Overtook off track into first and then went 30 seconds ahead of the pack? Still going to end up in second. I feel like it’s the only punishment that’s guaranteed to not have the driver thinking they can out drive the punishment.
Thing is the 10 second penalty in lieu of 5 in likely still worth it depending on the stage of the race & position Drivers need a drive through/stop go penalty or points added to their license otherwise they’ll just keep on doing it.
When the field is this close, a 10 second penalty is still extremely hard to make up for unless it's a Mercedes/Ferrari doing it to a Williams. Thing is with a 5 second penalty they started doing it to other Mclarens and Ferraris. That's when it got silly. Much harder to create a 10 second Gap to a McLaren/Ferrari even with track position before the pitstop to serve it.
By that logic for crashing someone the penalty should be dsq .... or prison
Whatever happened to drive-through penalties?
I liked the 5 second penalty *because* it allowed you to overtake if you were willing to suffer it. Most situations where a driver is capable of pulling a 5 second gap but can’t overtake is due to ignored dirty driving from the car defending. Unless they plan to start enforcing penalties for forcing cars off track, I don’t like the change.
F1 needs long lap penalties.
Holy shit why is this article/page so long for a three word update
Was this the big issue or was it the overtaking leading to a collision five second penalty?
It should be either give the position back or get a drive-through. There should be no bargaining.
I think there should be another for not serving it, I think I was max last year who got mine but his lead was so big they said forget it. It should have to be served during the race.
What do you do about late race penalties after all pit stops have been done though? You're basically saying any late race track limits or overtaking off track penalties should be a stop & go, which is a bit too extreme to me
Your definitely right, it's not a complete rule set in my head, but I do think saying "screw it, we won't serve it" should be a more harsh penalty. If it's late race then make it a drive through pitlane, maybe.
Should be a drive through but at least its going in the right direction.
Ocon is on notice
Sooo, they are changing the penalty for F1 (great thing) but also for F2? I mean, 10 s in F2 is HUGE, its way too much
Are they still being told to manage it themselves though?
They should've gone the old way of giving a drive-through for that.
Ok good, make it more difficult for drivers to get away with overtaking off the circuit.
And What about Ocon?
I think the driver at fault should just have to give the position back, regardless of what that costs them. The decision should be made quickly to prevent it from being too severe. If they are that much faster, they should be able to gain the position back, If they can't. That's on them.
I would absolutely love to see max start 4th and overtake 3rd, 2nd and 1st off the track, get a 30 second penalty and still win by 20 seconds
Max be like: Nice, new challenge.
5 seconds is sufficient most of the time imo. If it's clearly intentional and there's little intent to stay on track then sure, 10 seconds is better. But overall I think people complain about it too much.
Oh poor Ocon, he’s gonna rack up 2 minutes penalty time
See IMO its a step in the right direction but I feel like penalties in motorsports should be overly draconian. 5s penalties are nonsensical period. 10s should be the absolute minimum. For something like overtaking off track absolutely should be a drive through. Also time penalties should not be allowed to be served during a pitstop. There absolutely never should be any question as to breaking a rule can possibly be beneficial.
Should have to serve the penalty within a certain number of laps, penalty increases by 1s/lap not served beyond the limit.
You're describing a stop and go penalty which already exists and is much more severe than 10 seconds. The point of the 5 and 10 second penalties is that it adds the appropriate time without interrupting the driver's race. Forcing them into the pits when they wouldn't otherwise has a much bigger impact and is reserved for worse infringements.
Stop and go doesn't allow you to change tires/change anything on the car, even my suggestion still wouldn't be that harsh. >adds the appropriate time without interrupting the driver's race The point is to interrupt the drivers race because they didn't follow the rules. What's to stop Max Verstappen from cutting the Nouvelle Chicane on lap 1 in Monaco if he doesn't get pole? He can gap the field by 10 seconds in a matter of a dozen laps but he wouldn't be able to if properly stuck behind someone.
What about forcing a driver out of track and gaining position? i.e. Verstappen's only way of overtaking.
10secs to start, they add a +1 sec per lap that the offender waits to rectify the problem.