He must do but then again it is Alonso...
The problem would be if there's anywhere to go to. Sounds like he never considered any other team than Red Bull.
Based on recent performances the only clear upgrades for him would be McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull. McLaren and Ferrari don't have seats so it makes sense to only look at Red Bull.
Was about to say this. It wasn't exactly a dumb move to stay put given the options. There's no reason to think it's a slam dunk Aston will be worse than any other team not mentioned above (sorry Merc, but it's true).
Plus they do have a record of showing up with a vastly improved car after mediocre/bad stints. So it’s not impossible they turn it around and make a competitive package to fight maybe Ferrari and mercs for 3/4
Yeah tbh based on the last few years I trust AM more than Merc to suddenly come up with a fast car, even if just for a few races. Merc is just more consistent, but if Alonso just wants the off chance opportunity to bag another win or 2, he's honestly probably better off staying at AM lol
And the Honda package coming in at 2026. Also Aston might need to get used to the new facilities (factory, wind tunnel).
Mercedes has not much room for that, they already have top tier facilities, but they don't seem to be able to use them properly right now (and for the forseeable future, if the last 2+ this year are any indication).
That was just to distract from the real reason Alonso will never drive for Mercedes, that being spygate. Mercedes paid a majority of the fine at the time, and were furious.
The thing is, why go to Mercedes when it's been completely brain-drained and are on downward spiral too?
Hell, even the team that brain-drained Mercedes is being brain-drained.
Last year you could maybe let it slide with Aston making so many significant changes in its operation off the track.
This year can’t just be handwaved. Someone somewhere needs to get put on the hot seat.
Yes, but bear in mind Aston Martin was flattered because Ferrari and Mercedes completely screwed up their cars at the beginning of the season and McLaren still had months of work left for the update that brought them to the front.
Remember that in those races where Alonso was a clear 3rd, he was still like 20-30 seconds away from Verstappen and had no way to catch up to him no matter how much he pushed. For all the podiums they got, Alonso only had a single real chance to win a race, and that was Monaco.
AM has definitely regressed in that the car no longer stands out in anything, but even in 2023 it wasn't that good.
Last year they had a car fighting for podiums at the start of the season, then made it worse with upgrades, before eventually just throwing away the upgrades which caused them to have a rubbish middle of season. They seem to have an issue with inseason development for some reason
If Sergeant can get a chance at redemption why not Alonso? I'm thinking that the team should just work with him and help him to understand what he needs to do to keep his seat man, he has potential.
Easy to have a no blame culture when you’re ahead. Doesn’t look like their no blame culture has done them too well in course correcting when the initial concept is trash.
Conversely it's the pressure to hustle hustle hustle and the anxiety about being hauled over the coals if you make a mistake that causes more mistakes to happen
Mercedes were aiming for a relaxed atmosphere so the idea of not being blamed if a mistake happened meant people chilled more and as a result made less mistakes
That's what they were aiming for, but obviously corporate culture misunderstood it and pushed back because they liked their high pressure enviroments and blaming other people for their own mistakes, usually...
That's the result of copying Red Bull (by taking one of their designers (?))which was success at the beginning, but as expected you will only lose more and more time with that approach.
This is pure lies and ignorance.
If there's any car of them that was similar to the RB was the one AM had in late 2022.
The one in 2023 resembled the Ferrari more than anything, and Dan Fallows hadn't worked on it because he joined just two months before the 2023 season began.
The car they currently have is designed by Fallows, and it's nothing special.
And also, their success didn't come from anything beyond the fact that Ferrari and Mercedes screwed up their cars at the beginning in 2023.
The Aston Martin wasn't that good last year, even when Alonso ended in P3 he still ended up 30 secs away from Verstappen, is just everyone else screwed up hard.
At this point it’s pretty much looking like the improvements last year were just due to the former Red Bull employees they poached recreating the RB18 and the subsequent slide back down the standings is due to them not understanding how to develop the design.
This pretty much seems to be the M.O. of this team dating back to their racing point days.
He almost certainly has some exit clauses but at the moment there's still no realistic better options. 2026 still seems like a decent chance for Aston if they can sort out these issues
> Yeah as Honda works team there is a lot of potential
It all depends on which era Honda is going to emulate. Steve Nichols talked about the Honda engine being super reliable in the MP-4/4. Honda in the 2000's started using the F1 team as a place to train up engineers, so they did not get the best talent. Then look what happened with Honda and McLaren in the 2010s. Not sure what happened to make Honda successful with Red Bull. Most of my memories of Honda is Jenson Button and JV pulling over with smoking engines.
>Not sure what happened to make Honda successful with Red Bull
Open communication. Famously that neither Honda nor Mclaren were willing to admit both their faults and were blaming the other. Honda blamed the engine being hot garbage because Mclaren didn't want to accomodate the engine. Mclaren itself blamed Honda for the bad engine and claimed that the chassis with a better engine could legitimately fight at the top.
At Toro Rosso in 2018, Honda engineers were surprised how much data Toro Rosso gave and how open they were, compared to Mclaren.
I don't know exactly. I can only assume.
If I may take an educated guess, probably BAR itself making poor cars in the BAR era, coupled with that the Honda engine really wasn't that good. With Honda, my guess is good as yours, but I assume similarly, fucking up aero.
But BAR and Honda were decent for a while. 2003-2006 were certainly good midfield cars, with 2004 being second fastest more or less, behind Ferrari. It was mainly the beginning years that they had to find their feet again most likely for the first 3 years. Though 2007-2008 are inexplicably terrible.
With McHonda, we know about things that have leaked out back then, but not with BAR, which never had the toxic relationship that Mclaren-Honda was (infighting causes things to leak inevitably).
> Though 2007-2008 are inexplicably terrible.
The thing that gets me about BAR Honda is how much Button wanted to equal parts stay and leave. Then he gets stuck with one of the worst cars on the grid. Then Honda pulls the rug out from everyone and he ends up in the best car on the grid.
What was good was that Red Bull and Honda actually worked together and designed a package together. Mclaren and Honda designed the chassis and then the engine completely separately and just kinda cram it in there without any data sharing between them
Yeah I know but I was going based on recent history. They have been extremely strong this go around with small stumbles at the beginning but the fact they were going to pull out but then changed course seems to indicate to me they want to continue their winning streak and (hopefully) wont half ass the next engine regs.
I think they have gotten a ton of positive marketing and credibility from being so strong in F1 now so they would be stupid to throw that away.
That is what I wanted to ask. Because there is no way they will get Alonso to sign a 2y contact with AM and then they come out with this (what ever it was)
This is the right answer. He has no other options. He's not cheap at all and he has burned too many bridges. Teams are reluctant to hire him not because he's not fast, but because he has been problematic in the past.
Who is it exactly that he's burned bridges with? He was welcomed back at McLaren, he was back at Renault twice after leaving them, Honda said they're happy having him as the driver in 2026 when they're going to join Aston Martin. Where are these burnt bridges?
It really is, I dont get where it really comes from its silly after all these years everyone says he is a serious driver and puts in the work which shows in the results relative to teammates.
Imagine if people were claiming lewis burned his bridges by leaving mercedes at the end of his contract... its dumb.
I don't think it'll ever get that dramatic. 2022 was absolutely rubbish for AM and it only took a year to stabilise. Now they're the 5th/6th fastest car and having a wake up call.
It was related to another thread but someone suggested the Mercedes wind tunnel being a major factor in this. Given that both teams cannot get upgrades to correlate properly I presume the tunnel is still not set up correctly for these ground effect cars. 2025 will be the year with no more excuses after their dedicated tunnel comes online later this year
I saw the same but I'm not sure how convincing that is
After all, if that was the case, then mercedes upgrades presumably wouldn't work either? They aren't exactly fixing the core problems of the car but it does still generally get faster.over the year
Also, wouldn't that make it almost impossible for Merc or AM to progress year on year too? While they're falling back, they are still outright comfortably faster than they were the year before, no?
Happy to be corrected if I'm genuinely wrong
Not like it's either going to be 0% progress or 100% progress with the windtunnel or whatever system they have. Could be anywhere in between. Merc, AM or any team for that matter will definitely improve with all their knowledge from the previous season, they'd only be equal/slower if they willingly sabotage themselves. In theory even with the same 2023 car a team would be faster just because of better understanding their car.
> then mercedes upgrades presumably wouldn't work either?
Lol. That's been exactly their issue for the last 2 years though? They keep not understanding their upgrades.
But they do make the car faster.
Not as much faster as they should because they have no idea how to get the best out of them and it muddies their ability to effectively use their resources to develop even better, but they do make the car faster.
Mercedes upgrades in the last two years have been working, for the most part. That's not their problem. They just don't seem to understand the concept. Two different issues!
And then they will need to calibrate it? Or will be ready by then? Seeing the huge impact having a new tunnel had on McLaren I'm thinking they are eager to jump from the Merc one ASAP.
McLaren's progress last season was made on the Totoya tunnel in Cologne. I am sure the new tunnel is helping them a lot, and it's a good step forward (in relation to logistics also!) but I think people use to overvalue it in the case of McLaren and there are more important things related to their progress (like the new hirings, the new organization chart headed by Andrea Stella and of course letting James Key go).
I don't believe for the Mercedes wind tunnel is at fault for everything bad at Aston right now.
I don't know why people keep bringing up Merc, like its their fault AM can't make proper upgrades. AM managed to make an entire car over the winter before the 2023 season that ended up being the second fastest car and challenging for pole in Monaco using the wind tunnel, the W14 also never got slower, infact it ended up having the potential to win a few races at the end of the year, the W15's upgrades also are working as expected
One thing that was in AM favour last year was in 2022 they were fast to ditch their original concept and start copying the philosophy that Red Bull used. Remember Barcelona 2022 and the green Red Bull cans?
https://www.businessinsider.com/christian-horner-trolls-aston-martin-green-red-bull-car-cans-2022-5
2023, Merc turned up again with zero side pods. Ferrari turned up again with bath tubs. They both decided to extract more potential from their 2022 concepts. Aston was much further down the road of the Red Bull sloped side pods.
2024 and basically the grid has abandoned everything and gone down the Red Bull route. So I think car concept direction played heavily in to AM performance last year. And also explains why they were so easily caught up.
It’s a bit like they were in 2020/21. Copy the best car concept, and then hold on with whatever advantage that gives you. Hence 2021 Merc were able to take the now more limit concept and win the WCC. Racing Point/AM fell from 4th to 7th.
AM has already came out and said they are happy with merc's suspension and their tire issues have nothing to do with it, it's the way they use their tires
> Over the past weekend, Tom McCullough was also asked a question about the Mercedes suspension, which, according to some rumours, is one of the causes of the problems of the W15 and, evidently, also of the AMR24, especially with regards to tyre use.
> However, Aston Martin’s Performance Director flatly denied this rumor, stating that “we are happy with the suspension we have, our problems don’t come from that element, but from how we use the tyres.”
https://formu1a.uno/en/aston-martin-insist-they-are-happy-with-mercedes-suspension/#:~:text=However%2C%20Aston%20Martin's%20Performance%20Director,how%20we%20use%20the%20tyres.”
They complained about Merc's gearbox holding them back last year, why wouldn't they complain about the suspension if it was an issue
https://formu1a.uno/en/how-the-mercedes-gearbox-has-slowed-down-aston-martin/
Where and how much downforce is generated will impact the suspension loading (like how shifting weight in your car can cause it to rock a little bit) and enable different results (read: tire grip and life) with similar or identical suspension.
> 2025 will be the year with no more excuses after their dedicated tunnel comes online later this year
I've not kept up with this, is the new tunnel likely to be ready in time for the 2025 car to be largely developed using it?
I also dont think this is the case, but the way f1 cars generate downforce significantly changed in 2022.
There might be a flaw somewhere in the design chain, but we cant know and pretty much all we can do is speculate
It worked with the old generation of F1 cars, which generated downforce in a vastly different way and also worked significantly different in the wind tunnel. Modern wind tunnels use a system called PIV (Particle Image Velocimetry). In very basic terms it injects thousands of tiny reflective balls into the wind stream. You than use a strobe light to illuminate the wind tunnel several times a second and take several pictures of it from different angles. Through some clever computer science you can than see the airstream around the object. All if this is very easily done when you are mainly interested in the top side of your object or you can suspend the object in the air (like an airplane). But if you want to see the particles under the car in a very tight space it is a completely different story. They use 60% models which the run very close to the ground on a rolling road. There is no space for lots of cameras there
> Over the past weekend, Tom McCullough was also asked a question about the Mercedes suspension, which, according to some rumours, is one of the causes of the problems of the W15 and, evidently, also of the AMR24, especially with regards to tyre use.
> However, Aston Martin’s Performance Director flatly denied this rumor, stating that “we are happy with the suspension we have, our problems don’t come from that element, but from how we use the tyres.”
https://formu1a.uno/en/aston-martin-insist-they-are-happy-with-mercedes-suspension/#:~:text=However%2C%20Aston%20Martin's%20Performance%20Director,how%20we%20use%20the%20tyres.”
I mean yeah, you can add Alonso and Aston fans to that list is well, this is getting silly. The ridiculous part is none of us are surprised that the "upgrade" didn't work as expected
I actually felt dread when they announced the upgrade. They obviously need them in order to move back up the field, but after last year's debacle I just feared it more than anything else.
It's just heartbreaking how they dropped the ball since last season. They came in as the second fastest car, with some of the highest wind tunnel allowance, and managed to regress down to fifth. Even VCARB seems to be giving them a bit of a challenge for that now.
The new wind tunnel later this year will be the last chance to prove that the equipment not the staff is causing their problems. If the staff last that long
It’s not normal that every upgrade they introduced made the car lose it’s balance and use the excuse they need several GPs to understand the “upgrades”
Then you have McLaren, they introduced a massive package in Miami and only used one FP session to maximise the upgrades.
So McLaren showed Aston that their excuses a total BS, they don’t know what they are doing
McLaren made their 2023 upgrades in the old Cologne wind tunnel. The Miami 2024 ones were the first to be made entirely in the new one. The Bahrain car was started in the old one and moved to the new one.
The Silverstone upgrades they introduced last season which made them the 2nd fastest car was done with the old wind tunnel…
The current ones are from the new one
If it is indeed the Mercedes wind tunnel causing these issues, and once September comes around and things get fixed for Aston with their own new wind tunnel, you have to wonder, will Mercedes have to invest in making a new wind tunnel?
Because the ground effect era is not going away any time soon. And if the entire data correlation for Mercedes is screwed up in this era due to some fault in the wind tunnel, which is affecting both them and Aston Martin then something has to change.
On the other hand you have McLaren where every single upgrade package since Austria has brought in massive improvements into almost another different tier of performance, now looking to be equal to Red Bull less than a year after the first big package in Austria.
Imagine if Aston had an upgrade trajectory like McLaren had since the start of 2023.
It would take a long time for them to get their new wind tunnel calibrated and working properly. It won't do much for the 2024 and 25 cars.
The new wind tunnel will probably be used exclusively for the 26 cars. There is no point in wasting resources on the current gen cars. Its a lost cause.
Mercedes whilst not looking fantastic, are still moving forward and making slow progress with the drip feeding of upgrades.
I don't think it's the wind tunnel.
Sometimes, things arent either working 100% or completely broken. Theres levels to everything. The wind tunnel might be working well enough to allow them to continue to improve, but has issues that prevent them from seeing the gains that they think they should be seeing.
In a nutshell: the wind tunnel might only be working at 60 or 70% efficiency, and so Merc can only improve 60 to 70% of what they thought they were going to improve.
They clearly fluked their way into the second fastest car at the start of last year. 12 months on and they still don’t understand how or why that car was quick.
Lol that's exactly how it is. They even brought upgrades last year only to lose the performance and revert back. They don't know why their car is/was fast.
And what's worse is they didn't maximise that, they could have had a win in Monaco, Been much higher in the championship if they didn't have stroll as a handicap
Aston Martin have been shocking since the start of last season with their upgrades, not even Williams spent races pretty much in non contention with upgrades. Something is seriously wrong with their wind tunnel data.
Wouldn't that be in 2025-26?
He acquired force India in 2020 iirc so new wind tunnel in use for '25 and exclusive Honda contract for '26 their chances are still good as long as they get a proper aero philosophy to develop.
I mean if they are fighting for the championship next year that will be a big surprise. But they had stages to the plan and this year they were cosnsistently meant to be fighting for wins
The only team who had a realistic 5 year plan and have stuck to their upward trajectory is McLaren. Only the pandemic tripped them up and that was totally out of their control.
McLaren had something like a 5 year plan since 2014 and this season they are on level with Ferrari for second place. Yeah they have won two races in three seasons but thats it so far. They had plenty of setbacks along the way.
The thing with racing is it's impossible to have a 5 year plan that survives because *all the other teams* also have their 5 year plans. Clearly, *at best*, only one team can succeed and more likely they will all derail each other leading to none of those plans actually working out.
Yup, and he made his billions in Fashion, which is probably the easiest industry to profit in with the margins and exploitation involved. F1 is not a pay to win scheme as much as funds are important (just ask Toyota and BMW)
I mean, it's not great but they're supposedly the 5th fastest team and Lance finished 9th on the lead lap? Fernando had a shocker all weekend, assuming he had kept it clean with no issues he probably would've been 8th/9th if we take into account his usual gap to Lance. Don't think its time to panic just yet.
I think it is a bit of a panic...Remember they are a car marque first and foremost, they want to get the spotlight. You could argue that last year, while they weren't able to actually defeat Max's Red Bull, being there as a huge talking point, always fighting against the others, that did wonders to their branding. Now everyone is talking about McLaren, their most direct competitor, while they are only remembered sporadically and often for bad reasons...
Iirc there is little actual link between Aston Martin F1 team and Aston Martin the car manufacturer beyond sponsorships.
AM F1 aren't really an AM works team any more than Sauber was Alfa Romeo's between 2018-2022, or RBR Aston Martin's works team before 2021. AM just gets to put the logo on the car, but don't actually meaningfully invest into the F1 team; so most likely, the ROI required to be profitable is drastically lower, just like how it used to be for Alfa Romeo (who were happy enough to just *be* in F1, regardless of the results because it "only" cost them in the low tens of millions anyway).
Two issues people have pointed out;
1- rear suspension which they get from Mercedes and dont make their own, unlike mclaren.
2- wind tunnel; which they use of Mercedes and dont have their own yet.
This explains that they are facing similar development or devolution trajectory as merc..
Dan fallows has ran out of source material as well now… future is bleak.
Well they bought Dan Fallows and it looks like his knowledge had a sell by date. They bought all those Red Bull engineers and it looks like they didn’t actually know what the RB18 or the RB19 did or how it did it. Stroll apparently has great technical feedback but there’s been no evidence of such feedback moving them up the grid. Every upgrade they bring seems to push them backwards. Teams looked at McLaren and immediately thought ‘well if *they* can do it…so can we’, but it hasn’t worked out that way for various reasons. Aston Martin have an engine deal with Honda in 2026 and have shown zero progress since the midway point of 2023. Everyone absolutely jumped the gun on that deal and they’ll have to live with that one.
Aston really don't seem to have any idea what they're doing when it comes to upgrades. They dropped off last year and the big upgrades did nothing if not slowed them down then all the new ones at Imola the exact same issue.
Shame they've gone from people talking about going for wins and that to being somewhere in the mid field after like half a season
Are we just going to keep pretending AM wasn't specifically targeted with technical directives early last season? Their whole concept got thrown out the window and they've been on the backfoot ever since.
Knew the AM honeymoon period would wear off for Fernando, as for daddy stroll, imagine how the rest of the team is losing patience with your son taking up a seat
WTF?
They need to clam the fuck down. The team just had by far their strongest F1 season of all time. This season has been slow but we have 17more races to go.
They need to keep their expectations in check anyways. Aston are using a lot of Merc parts at the rear of their car, Merc parts that aren't even working in the works car.
Aston needs to start working on designing their own gearbox casings so that they can run a rear suspension setup of their choosing. Kind of like what Mclaren are doing.
Hey Lawrence, if you’re starting to lose patience I know there’s a component in your second car that is absolutely holding back performance.
He’s located right in the middle of the car, right on top of the seat. Swap him out for a better component and you’ll see a huge increase in performance.
Fernando signed his new contract with Aston Martin, it was inevitable things would all go to shit.
I was looking forward to seeing what his next job hopping move was going to be
Mad lad team jumped to the same team and the curse still worked. Fernando has some OP skills
At some point we have to accept he's not in his prime anymore, the only place he goes after Aston is retirement
Same with Lewis but we aren’t allowed to say that out loud.
I wonder if he has a get out clause if the team is shit?
He must do but then again it is Alonso... The problem would be if there's anywhere to go to. Sounds like he never considered any other team than Red Bull.
Based on recent performances the only clear upgrades for him would be McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull. McLaren and Ferrari don't have seats so it makes sense to only look at Red Bull.
Was about to say this. It wasn't exactly a dumb move to stay put given the options. There's no reason to think it's a slam dunk Aston will be worse than any other team not mentioned above (sorry Merc, but it's true).
Plus they do have a record of showing up with a vastly improved car after mediocre/bad stints. So it’s not impossible they turn it around and make a competitive package to fight maybe Ferrari and mercs for 3/4
Yeah tbh based on the last few years I trust AM more than Merc to suddenly come up with a fast car, even if just for a few races. Merc is just more consistent, but if Alonso just wants the off chance opportunity to bag another win or 2, he's honestly probably better off staying at AM lol
And the Honda package coming in at 2026. Also Aston might need to get used to the new facilities (factory, wind tunnel). Mercedes has not much room for that, they already have top tier facilities, but they don't seem to be able to use them properly right now (and for the forseeable future, if the last 2+ this year are any indication).
I actually thought he was might be the one to go back to Ferrari with Lewis staying with Mercedes until retirement. Wild how it all played out.
He should have left and then they could have become frontrunners
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He left McLaren for Renault in 2008 when Lewis won the title that year in the McLaren. I do see your point though. That’s pretty much it.
makes it funny how he bragged about Mercedes being behind AM, as to why he wouldn't sign for them...
That was just to distract from the real reason Alonso will never drive for Mercedes, that being spygate. Mercedes paid a majority of the fine at the time, and were furious.
People also said he will never drive for Mclaren, Ron Dennis or Honda again.
The thing is, why go to Mercedes when it's been completely brain-drained and are on downward spiral too? Hell, even the team that brain-drained Mercedes is being brain-drained.
Watch him leave and then aston becomes title fighters.
Each team that hires him ends up as a victim of his doings.
Last year you could maybe let it slide with Aston making so many significant changes in its operation off the track. This year can’t just be handwaved. Someone somewhere needs to get put on the hot seat.
Either that or become Alpine 2.0
Nah Alpine is unique
French*
>You know Mom's gonna pack your stuff anyway. You're what the French call "les incompetents".
KEVIN !
Le 🇫🇷
Le Plan.
How many races until we get to 100? Is it back to 99 again ?
Or Mercedes.
Ella Plan
Oh no what’s gonna happen to my crack??
Last year they exceeded all expectations I would say.
Regression to the mean
Last year they got 110% out of a bad design.
Last year they were fighting for podiums!
Yes, but bear in mind Aston Martin was flattered because Ferrari and Mercedes completely screwed up their cars at the beginning of the season and McLaren still had months of work left for the update that brought them to the front. Remember that in those races where Alonso was a clear 3rd, he was still like 20-30 seconds away from Verstappen and had no way to catch up to him no matter how much he pushed. For all the podiums they got, Alonso only had a single real chance to win a race, and that was Monaco. AM has definitely regressed in that the car no longer stands out in anything, but even in 2023 it wasn't that good.
I still think the flexiwing TD hurt them more then they admit
They were actually *on* podiums
*Fernando* was actually on podiums
Fighting even for a win at Monaco
I knew messing that up that would haunt them
Oh no, that never happened, what are you talking about? As far as I’m aware Nando won the race in Monaco 2023.
Last year they had a car fighting for podiums at the start of the season, then made it worse with upgrades, before eventually just throwing away the upgrades which caused them to have a rubbish middle of season. They seem to have an issue with inseason development for some reason
Even then, really: as the race said last year...Stroll didn't invest all that money for 5th and a sense of improvement.
I agree. Nando is just a pay driver wasting a spot that could be filled with a driver with proper skill and experience
Right? Knocked out in Q1 and finishing P19 while his teammate is in the points is unacceptable. How much longer can he blame it on his Spanish roots?
tbf stroll is in his 8th season or something. nando is a rookie compared to him
fairs, im sure fernando will improve 🫡
i dont know, i think the team will go after a new driver before he has the chance to prove himself in F1
The fact that you took the risk of not putting /s at the end of your comment but everyone managed to realise you were being sarcastic... nice one
If Sergeant can get a chance at redemption why not Alonso? I'm thinking that the team should just work with him and help him to understand what he needs to do to keep his seat man, he has potential.
Give him time, he's just a rookie. Look how Tsunoda flourished after a few years.
Seriously, Alonso wasn't even on the grid in 2020 but Stroll has been in F1 since 2017. Give the poor guy a break.
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They’re no-blaming themselves into a Williams situation right now
Easy to have a no blame culture when you’re ahead. Doesn’t look like their no blame culture has done them too well in course correcting when the initial concept is trash.
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Conversely it's the pressure to hustle hustle hustle and the anxiety about being hauled over the coals if you make a mistake that causes more mistakes to happen Mercedes were aiming for a relaxed atmosphere so the idea of not being blamed if a mistake happened meant people chilled more and as a result made less mistakes That's what they were aiming for, but obviously corporate culture misunderstood it and pushed back because they liked their high pressure enviroments and blaming other people for their own mistakes, usually...
Yh and then Merc immediately fired their technical director the moment shit went sideways
That's the result of copying Red Bull (by taking one of their designers (?))which was success at the beginning, but as expected you will only lose more and more time with that approach.
This is pure lies and ignorance. If there's any car of them that was similar to the RB was the one AM had in late 2022. The one in 2023 resembled the Ferrari more than anything, and Dan Fallows hadn't worked on it because he joined just two months before the 2023 season began. The car they currently have is designed by Fallows, and it's nothing special. And also, their success didn't come from anything beyond the fact that Ferrari and Mercedes screwed up their cars at the beginning in 2023. The Aston Martin wasn't that good last year, even when Alonso ended in P3 he still ended up 30 secs away from Verstappen, is just everyone else screwed up hard.
At this point it’s pretty much looking like the improvements last year were just due to the former Red Bull employees they poached recreating the RB18 and the subsequent slide back down the standings is due to them not understanding how to develop the design. This pretty much seems to be the M.O. of this team dating back to their racing point days.
Probably extremely early to say this, but do you guys think Fernando has a clause to get out if shit hits the fan sooner rather than later?
He almost certainly has some exit clauses but at the moment there's still no realistic better options. 2026 still seems like a decent chance for Aston if they can sort out these issues
Yeah as Honda works team there is a lot of potential
> Yeah as Honda works team there is a lot of potential It all depends on which era Honda is going to emulate. Steve Nichols talked about the Honda engine being super reliable in the MP-4/4. Honda in the 2000's started using the F1 team as a place to train up engineers, so they did not get the best talent. Then look what happened with Honda and McLaren in the 2010s. Not sure what happened to make Honda successful with Red Bull. Most of my memories of Honda is Jenson Button and JV pulling over with smoking engines.
>Not sure what happened to make Honda successful with Red Bull Open communication. Famously that neither Honda nor Mclaren were willing to admit both their faults and were blaming the other. Honda blamed the engine being hot garbage because Mclaren didn't want to accomodate the engine. Mclaren itself blamed Honda for the bad engine and claimed that the chassis with a better engine could legitimately fight at the top. At Toro Rosso in 2018, Honda engineers were surprised how much data Toro Rosso gave and how open they were, compared to Mclaren.
Why was the BAR Honda, then Honda so shit then?
I don't know exactly. I can only assume. If I may take an educated guess, probably BAR itself making poor cars in the BAR era, coupled with that the Honda engine really wasn't that good. With Honda, my guess is good as yours, but I assume similarly, fucking up aero. But BAR and Honda were decent for a while. 2003-2006 were certainly good midfield cars, with 2004 being second fastest more or less, behind Ferrari. It was mainly the beginning years that they had to find their feet again most likely for the first 3 years. Though 2007-2008 are inexplicably terrible. With McHonda, we know about things that have leaked out back then, but not with BAR, which never had the toxic relationship that Mclaren-Honda was (infighting causes things to leak inevitably).
> Though 2007-2008 are inexplicably terrible. The thing that gets me about BAR Honda is how much Button wanted to equal parts stay and leave. Then he gets stuck with one of the worst cars on the grid. Then Honda pulls the rug out from everyone and he ends up in the best car on the grid.
What was good was that Red Bull and Honda actually worked together and designed a package together. Mclaren and Honda designed the chassis and then the engine completely separately and just kinda cram it in there without any data sharing between them
Yeah I know but I was going based on recent history. They have been extremely strong this go around with small stumbles at the beginning but the fact they were going to pull out but then changed course seems to indicate to me they want to continue their winning streak and (hopefully) wont half ass the next engine regs. I think they have gotten a ton of positive marketing and credibility from being so strong in F1 now so they would be stupid to throw that away.
That is what I wanted to ask. Because there is no way they will get Alonso to sign a 2y contact with AM and then they come out with this (what ever it was)
I’m not sure where else he would go that’s more competitive. I think he’s kinda stuck there for better or worse.
Clause DB5, ejects him right out of there in case of emergency.
But go where? He tried getting the Mercedes and Red Bull seats they didn’t want him. 5-6th fastest car is the best he can get.
Both Alpine drivers are out of contract at the end of the year!
...El Plan?
Must be
VCARB with Daniel. They need youth!
This is the right answer. He has no other options. He's not cheap at all and he has burned too many bridges. Teams are reluctant to hire him not because he's not fast, but because he has been problematic in the past.
Who is it exactly that he's burned bridges with? He was welcomed back at McLaren, he was back at Renault twice after leaving them, Honda said they're happy having him as the driver in 2026 when they're going to join Aston Martin. Where are these burnt bridges?
This burned bridges myth is getting tiring.
100% Did you see him going over and congratulating McLaren after Miami? They still clearly love him.
It really is, I dont get where it really comes from its silly after all these years everyone says he is a serious driver and puts in the work which shows in the results relative to teammates. Imagine if people were claiming lewis burned his bridges by leaving mercedes at the end of his contract... its dumb.
lol, that’s some nice fan fiction.
> has burned too many bridges. T Oh like Honda and McLaren?
He has Flavio Briatori negotiating for him. I am sure there are all sorts of clauses with the contract.
I don't think it'll ever get that dramatic. 2022 was absolutely rubbish for AM and it only took a year to stabilise. Now they're the 5th/6th fastest car and having a wake up call.
For sure. Thing is, which team would sign him and if he would accept driving for said team? I don't think Alonso would drive for Haas.
It was related to another thread but someone suggested the Mercedes wind tunnel being a major factor in this. Given that both teams cannot get upgrades to correlate properly I presume the tunnel is still not set up correctly for these ground effect cars. 2025 will be the year with no more excuses after their dedicated tunnel comes online later this year
Plausible but Merc hasn't regressed with upgrades in the way AM has, neither in 2023 nor after their Miami upgrades this season
I saw the same but I'm not sure how convincing that is After all, if that was the case, then mercedes upgrades presumably wouldn't work either? They aren't exactly fixing the core problems of the car but it does still generally get faster.over the year Also, wouldn't that make it almost impossible for Merc or AM to progress year on year too? While they're falling back, they are still outright comfortably faster than they were the year before, no? Happy to be corrected if I'm genuinely wrong
I am not sure but it felt like this time the Aston was worse than in any race in 2023.
User above you is saying laptime wise both Merc and AM are faster than last year. Other teams just improved more than AM which is why AM is worse off.
There was no Imola in 2023 to compare, and AM just brought that new package to Imola. I agree about the other races though.
As a certified Nando Ultra I can tell you: Worst so far, considering that Lance got P9, was Mexico 2023. The Aston was a literal tractor there
Try Mexico 2023. No way they were less competitive in Imola than that.
Not like it's either going to be 0% progress or 100% progress with the windtunnel or whatever system they have. Could be anywhere in between. Merc, AM or any team for that matter will definitely improve with all their knowledge from the previous season, they'd only be equal/slower if they willingly sabotage themselves. In theory even with the same 2023 car a team would be faster just because of better understanding their car.
> then mercedes upgrades presumably wouldn't work either? Lol. That's been exactly their issue for the last 2 years though? They keep not understanding their upgrades.
But they do make the car faster. Not as much faster as they should because they have no idea how to get the best out of them and it muddies their ability to effectively use their resources to develop even better, but they do make the car faster.
Mercedes upgrades in the last two years have been working, for the most part. That's not their problem. They just don't seem to understand the concept. Two different issues!
Hasn't their new wind tunnel become online yet?
Not until September/October more or less
And then they will need to calibrate it? Or will be ready by then? Seeing the huge impact having a new tunnel had on McLaren I'm thinking they are eager to jump from the Merc one ASAP.
McLaren's progress last season was made on the Totoya tunnel in Cologne. I am sure the new tunnel is helping them a lot, and it's a good step forward (in relation to logistics also!) but I think people use to overvalue it in the case of McLaren and there are more important things related to their progress (like the new hirings, the new organization chart headed by Andrea Stella and of course letting James Key go). I don't believe for the Mercedes wind tunnel is at fault for everything bad at Aston right now.
Correlation is 4 things. Wind tunnel, track, simulator, and cfd. When they work in harmony gains are easier to quantify.
I don't know why people keep bringing up Merc, like its their fault AM can't make proper upgrades. AM managed to make an entire car over the winter before the 2023 season that ended up being the second fastest car and challenging for pole in Monaco using the wind tunnel, the W14 also never got slower, infact it ended up having the potential to win a few races at the end of the year, the W15's upgrades also are working as expected
One thing that was in AM favour last year was in 2022 they were fast to ditch their original concept and start copying the philosophy that Red Bull used. Remember Barcelona 2022 and the green Red Bull cans? https://www.businessinsider.com/christian-horner-trolls-aston-martin-green-red-bull-car-cans-2022-5 2023, Merc turned up again with zero side pods. Ferrari turned up again with bath tubs. They both decided to extract more potential from their 2022 concepts. Aston was much further down the road of the Red Bull sloped side pods. 2024 and basically the grid has abandoned everything and gone down the Red Bull route. So I think car concept direction played heavily in to AM performance last year. And also explains why they were so easily caught up. It’s a bit like they were in 2020/21. Copy the best car concept, and then hold on with whatever advantage that gives you. Hence 2021 Merc were able to take the now more limit concept and win the WCC. Racing Point/AM fell from 4th to 7th.
Or the Mercedes rear suspension
AM has already came out and said they are happy with merc's suspension and their tire issues have nothing to do with it, it's the way they use their tires
> it's the way they use their tires Isnt the way a car uses the tyres highly related to its suspension?
> Over the past weekend, Tom McCullough was also asked a question about the Mercedes suspension, which, according to some rumours, is one of the causes of the problems of the W15 and, evidently, also of the AMR24, especially with regards to tyre use. > However, Aston Martin’s Performance Director flatly denied this rumor, stating that “we are happy with the suspension we have, our problems don’t come from that element, but from how we use the tyres.” https://formu1a.uno/en/aston-martin-insist-they-are-happy-with-mercedes-suspension/#:~:text=However%2C%20Aston%20Martin's%20Performance%20Director,how%20we%20use%20the%20tyres.”
He wouldn't say it even if it was.
They complained about Merc's gearbox holding them back last year, why wouldn't they complain about the suspension if it was an issue https://formu1a.uno/en/how-the-mercedes-gearbox-has-slowed-down-aston-martin/
Where and how much downforce is generated will impact the suspension loading (like how shifting weight in your car can cause it to rock a little bit) and enable different results (read: tire grip and life) with similar or identical suspension.
Yeah I was wondering the same thing about that. Will be interesting to see if there’s a change with the new wind tunnel.
> 2025 will be the year with no more excuses after their dedicated tunnel comes online later this year I've not kept up with this, is the new tunnel likely to be ready in time for the 2025 car to be largely developed using it?
So tunnel worked properly for 8 years in a row, now it does not? If there is a problem it's between simulator and track performance. Not tunnel
I also dont think this is the case, but the way f1 cars generate downforce significantly changed in 2022. There might be a flaw somewhere in the design chain, but we cant know and pretty much all we can do is speculate
It worked with the old generation of F1 cars, which generated downforce in a vastly different way and also worked significantly different in the wind tunnel. Modern wind tunnels use a system called PIV (Particle Image Velocimetry). In very basic terms it injects thousands of tiny reflective balls into the wind stream. You than use a strobe light to illuminate the wind tunnel several times a second and take several pictures of it from different angles. Through some clever computer science you can than see the airstream around the object. All if this is very easily done when you are mainly interested in the top side of your object or you can suspend the object in the air (like an airplane). But if you want to see the particles under the car in a very tight space it is a completely different story. They use 60% models which the run very close to the ground on a rolling road. There is no space for lots of cameras there
I am also reading their ability to save tyres during the race is also being affected by the new Mercedes rear suspension
> Over the past weekend, Tom McCullough was also asked a question about the Mercedes suspension, which, according to some rumours, is one of the causes of the problems of the W15 and, evidently, also of the AMR24, especially with regards to tyre use. > However, Aston Martin’s Performance Director flatly denied this rumor, stating that “we are happy with the suspension we have, our problems don’t come from that element, but from how we use the tyres.” https://formu1a.uno/en/aston-martin-insist-they-are-happy-with-mercedes-suspension/#:~:text=However%2C%20Aston%20Martin's%20Performance%20Director,how%20we%20use%20the%20tyres.”
Intresting
I mean yeah, you can add Alonso and Aston fans to that list is well, this is getting silly. The ridiculous part is none of us are surprised that the "upgrade" didn't work as expected
Fans of Fernando Alonso 🤝 suffering when upgrades come
Happy cake day! I genuinely hope it’s a setup related issue but we will see in Monaco.
I actually felt dread when they announced the upgrade. They obviously need them in order to move back up the field, but after last year's debacle I just feared it more than anything else. It's just heartbreaking how they dropped the ball since last season. They came in as the second fastest car, with some of the highest wind tunnel allowance, and managed to regress down to fifth. Even VCARB seems to be giving them a bit of a challenge for that now.
The new wind tunnel later this year will be the last chance to prove that the equipment not the staff is causing their problems. If the staff last that long
It’s not normal that every upgrade they introduced made the car lose it’s balance and use the excuse they need several GPs to understand the “upgrades” Then you have McLaren, they introduced a massive package in Miami and only used one FP session to maximise the upgrades. So McLaren showed Aston that their excuses a total BS, they don’t know what they are doing
I thought McLaren had a new windtunnel explaining why they had such major upgrades.
McLaren made their 2023 upgrades in the old Cologne wind tunnel. The Miami 2024 ones were the first to be made entirely in the new one. The Bahrain car was started in the old one and moved to the new one.
The Silverstone upgrades they introduced last season which made them the 2nd fastest car was done with the old wind tunnel… The current ones are from the new one
I mean they use different wind tunnels so it’s not a crazy excuse. It makes sense
If it is indeed the Mercedes wind tunnel causing these issues, and once September comes around and things get fixed for Aston with their own new wind tunnel, you have to wonder, will Mercedes have to invest in making a new wind tunnel? Because the ground effect era is not going away any time soon. And if the entire data correlation for Mercedes is screwed up in this era due to some fault in the wind tunnel, which is affecting both them and Aston Martin then something has to change. On the other hand you have McLaren where every single upgrade package since Austria has brought in massive improvements into almost another different tier of performance, now looking to be equal to Red Bull less than a year after the first big package in Austria. Imagine if Aston had an upgrade trajectory like McLaren had since the start of 2023.
It would take a long time for them to get their new wind tunnel calibrated and working properly. It won't do much for the 2024 and 25 cars. The new wind tunnel will probably be used exclusively for the 26 cars. There is no point in wasting resources on the current gen cars. Its a lost cause.
Mercedes whilst not looking fantastic, are still moving forward and making slow progress with the drip feeding of upgrades. I don't think it's the wind tunnel.
Sometimes, things arent either working 100% or completely broken. Theres levels to everything. The wind tunnel might be working well enough to allow them to continue to improve, but has issues that prevent them from seeing the gains that they think they should be seeing. In a nutshell: the wind tunnel might only be working at 60 or 70% efficiency, and so Merc can only improve 60 to 70% of what they thought they were going to improve.
I'm sure many of us are expecting the AM wind tunnel "upgrade" to somehow unexpectedly set them back.
👀🧪 Aston Martin: Finally, FP4
They clearly fluked their way into the second fastest car at the start of last year. 12 months on and they still don’t understand how or why that car was quick.
Lol that's exactly how it is. They even brought upgrades last year only to lose the performance and revert back. They don't know why their car is/was fast.
> why that car was quick flex wings
Part of that fluke was mcl, Ferrari, and merc all kinda shitting the bed at the same time. So it really was lucky.
And what's worse is they didn't maximise that, they could have had a win in Monaco, Been much higher in the championship if they didn't have stroll as a handicap
How do they keep botching upgrade packages so badly?
Aston Martin have been shocking since the start of last season with their upgrades, not even Williams spent races pretty much in non contention with upgrades. Something is seriously wrong with their wind tunnel data.
Remember Lawrence's 5 year plan, and how he's never failed at anything? And Aston would be fighting for championships now?
Wouldn't that be in 2025-26? He acquired force India in 2020 iirc so new wind tunnel in use for '25 and exclusive Honda contract for '26 their chances are still good as long as they get a proper aero philosophy to develop.
I mean if they are fighting for the championship next year that will be a big surprise. But they had stages to the plan and this year they were cosnsistently meant to be fighting for wins
The only team who had a realistic 5 year plan and have stuck to their upward trajectory is McLaren. Only the pandemic tripped them up and that was totally out of their control.
McLaren had something like a 5 year plan since 2014 and this season they are on level with Ferrari for second place. Yeah they have won two races in three seasons but thats it so far. They had plenty of setbacks along the way.
The thing with racing is it's impossible to have a 5 year plan that survives because *all the other teams* also have their 5 year plans. Clearly, *at best*, only one team can succeed and more likely they will all derail each other leading to none of those plans actually working out.
Also as a Nepo kid (Lawrence, not Lance) he's used to getting everything when he pays for it.
Yup, and he made his billions in Fashion, which is probably the easiest industry to profit in with the margins and exploitation involved. F1 is not a pay to win scheme as much as funds are important (just ask Toyota and BMW)
I mean, it's not great but they're supposedly the 5th fastest team and Lance finished 9th on the lead lap? Fernando had a shocker all weekend, assuming he had kept it clean with no issues he probably would've been 8th/9th if we take into account his usual gap to Lance. Don't think its time to panic just yet.
Think the point is they are not aiming to finish 9th. Lawrence wants to compete for podiums and wins
He also wants his kid to be a top tier racing driver….
Last year Fernando had 8 podiums and came close to a win in Monaco. Do you seriously expect him to be happy with 8th or 9th?
I think it is a bit of a panic...Remember they are a car marque first and foremost, they want to get the spotlight. You could argue that last year, while they weren't able to actually defeat Max's Red Bull, being there as a huge talking point, always fighting against the others, that did wonders to their branding. Now everyone is talking about McLaren, their most direct competitor, while they are only remembered sporadically and often for bad reasons...
Iirc there is little actual link between Aston Martin F1 team and Aston Martin the car manufacturer beyond sponsorships. AM F1 aren't really an AM works team any more than Sauber was Alfa Romeo's between 2018-2022, or RBR Aston Martin's works team before 2021. AM just gets to put the logo on the car, but don't actually meaningfully invest into the F1 team; so most likely, the ROI required to be profitable is drastically lower, just like how it used to be for Alfa Romeo (who were happy enough to just *be* in F1, regardless of the results because it "only" cost them in the low tens of millions anyway).
Didn’t they do these in many of the races in last 1/4th of the 2023 season ?
Meanwhile Lance Stroll? Bad Driver + Bad Car = Good Performance. Double negative makes a positive.
Why can Aston make upgrades? Only downgrades?
Two issues people have pointed out; 1- rear suspension which they get from Mercedes and dont make their own, unlike mclaren. 2- wind tunnel; which they use of Mercedes and dont have their own yet. This explains that they are facing similar development or devolution trajectory as merc.. Dan fallows has ran out of source material as well now… future is bleak.
Maybe Dan Fallows came with lots of good ideas from Red Bull but since failed to come up with working concepts of his own?
Similar to what happened with the game of thrones once the Grrm books ended…
Well they bought Dan Fallows and it looks like his knowledge had a sell by date. They bought all those Red Bull engineers and it looks like they didn’t actually know what the RB18 or the RB19 did or how it did it. Stroll apparently has great technical feedback but there’s been no evidence of such feedback moving them up the grid. Every upgrade they bring seems to push them backwards. Teams looked at McLaren and immediately thought ‘well if *they* can do it…so can we’, but it hasn’t worked out that way for various reasons. Aston Martin have an engine deal with Honda in 2026 and have shown zero progress since the midway point of 2023. Everyone absolutely jumped the gun on that deal and they’ll have to live with that one.
So what I'm reading is... Honda out in 2028 again?
Aston really don't seem to have any idea what they're doing when it comes to upgrades. They dropped off last year and the big upgrades did nothing if not slowed them down then all the new ones at Imola the exact same issue. Shame they've gone from people talking about going for wins and that to being somewhere in the mid field after like half a season
200 race plan
Is all baked into El Plan right ? /s
Wished he blew up Horner's phone to replace Checo... RB needs a better second driver for next year. It'll be very tight for Max to win the WCC alone.
"Throw money at the problem, and it will remain." (Abandoned, Pleased, Brainwashed, Exploited; Sonata Arctica)
Haas/Williams 2022 energy
There it is. The point where you can't just buy more performance. Let's see if papa Stroll has the patience to build towards success or not.
I'd assumed Fernando pitting late for softs was an attempt at taking the fastest lap point away from Mercedes.. was that not the case?
Are we just going to keep pretending AM wasn't specifically targeted with technical directives early last season? Their whole concept got thrown out the window and they've been on the backfoot ever since.
Monza when Alonso turns toxic?
Knew the AM honeymoon period would wear off for Fernando, as for daddy stroll, imagine how the rest of the team is losing patience with your son taking up a seat
WTF? They need to clam the fuck down. The team just had by far their strongest F1 season of all time. This season has been slow but we have 17more races to go. They need to keep their expectations in check anyways. Aston are using a lot of Merc parts at the rear of their car, Merc parts that aren't even working in the works car. Aston needs to start working on designing their own gearbox casings so that they can run a rear suspension setup of their choosing. Kind of like what Mclaren are doing.
Thats what Lance wants. The more the car is shit the less he is on the radar for anyone and he can drive his race and keep his seat
Hey Lawrence, if you’re starting to lose patience I know there’s a component in your second car that is absolutely holding back performance. He’s located right in the middle of the car, right on top of the seat. Swap him out for a better component and you’ll see a huge increase in performance.
I know a guy that they can sign to improve the areo, money talks 😆
Well. Maybe Fernando and Stroll should look into MikeKrack.
Fair to says there’s Cracks in the new package 😊
"I just want the baby, not the birthing pains!" (Willy Bank, Ocean's Thirteen)