Re watched the race. While I think race control and Stewards really were on it, they just weren't quick enough for Max and Lando's 10-11 lap battle. In my understanding, there were enough flagrant violations there.
Max used every trick in his arsenal to stay in the lead. He got 10s for the collision he caused, but got away with overtaking outside the lines and not giving the place back. I don't know if he was investigated for this. Definitely didn't get a penalty.
In essence, somethings should have been investigated, even after the penalty.
Further, I think this is a learning moment for Lando. Overtaking Max is different than overtaking a midfield car who'll gladly save tyres instead of fight tooth and nail.
Agreed. I'm not sure it would have made a big difference in this case but I like the idea of forcing drivers to serve the penalties immediately. I think drive through should be the default for "causing a collision" and time penalties should just be for lesser offences like pitlane speeding or track limits.
I presume that Max would have been allowed to pit for a new tyre and then would have had to serve the penalty after?
It's getting harder to defend Perez these days. Qualified P8 and finished ~~P8~~ P7 most likely because Lando retired, and was stuck behind Nico. Someone else deserves a chance in that seat
Edit: he finished P7
question: do you think merc is deliberately sabotaging LH since it's his last season with mercs or he's just been the slower driver between himself and Russell in awhile now?
Odd how he somehow always manages to get enough damage to not impact his pace much at all - he was just as far behind all weekend - but big enough for people to give him an excuse.
Why does him being unable to not crash into people and get damage count FOR him instead of against?
The next good track for Sergio is Baku and that's in September. That's Silverstone, Hungary, Spa, Zandvoort, and Monza where he's be lucky to finish in the top 5.
there is no reason for professional drivers pace to be significant;y better at one track compared to another. He's not suddenly going to turn up at Baku and be good again.
Yeah, there's no reason that Perez should have ended behind Max who had a compromised car and race pace by the end of it. His primary role is supposed to be securing any wins Max isn't able to get and yet, he wasn't anywhere close.
Oh to be in the minds of Albon and Gasly as they see this shit show. They both got cut so brutally and to see Perez get seemingly unlimited leeway must really be some bullshit to them
Gasly got cut so brutally that they kept him around for four more years helping him rebuild his reputation. Wow, really terrible. And poor Albon, with the whole team going out of their way to give him credit for his sim work in 2021. And he retained his personal sponsorships. Unreal how mean they were to him.
I didn't say that getting cut was inexcusable or that there was no reason for it - but I do think it would be eyebrow raising for both of them that Checo can continue to have extremely poor performances and not get demoted
Points for WCC and WDC are only rewarded for Sprint race position (P1-P8), GP position (P1-10) and fastest lap in GP (only if the driver with the fastest lap finished in P1-10).
Other metrics (like fastest pitstop, DotD, best overtake of the month, etc.) may be linked to prizes or might have separate rankings, but these won't affect the WDC or WCC.
Impossible thing to ask - if he’d been there would Lando and Max be fighting in that way causing the crash? McLaren having two cars would have maybe given them strategic advantage
Has anyone ever overtaken Max around the outside of a corner for a win, podium or significant position? I can’t think of a single time this has happened so hopefully someone with a better memory can chime in?
i think once Bottas overtook him at Austria, it was notable because its honestly the first time i can remember an overtake done by or to Max that wasn't controversial.
Hamilton - Hungary 2019
Also Austria 22, Leclerc's final overtake was an outside into switchback in turn 3 which is exactly what Lando should have done
Thank you! So we do have one example, Hamilton in Hungary 2019, albeit one where Max had a 24 lap tyre deficit. I’d still love to have others chime in or have more examples to come up because while I thought an outside overtake on Max was rare, I didn’t think there may be zero examples of such an overtake when both cars had similar tyres/grip to race with?
Not in 2021, Max drove Hamilton off when he tried to overtake on the outside then later Hamilton completed the overtake on the straight before the corner.
Had there been any explanation for Red Bull’s super slow pit stop with Max? I’m just curious to know if it was human error or something mechanical. They’re usually so on top of it. I also feel like this was a turning point for Max’s frustration.
It looked like it was a tool malfunction where the wheel gun failed. In the broadcast, the guy on the rear left I think had to hit the wheel twice to get it off.
I don’t know enough about F1 cars to know if this is something that can actually happen, but it kind of looked like the wheel nut was stuck. [They never switched guns. It just took two tries to get it off the car.](https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2024-austrian-grand-prix-norris-gains-on-verstappen-after-slow-red-bull-pit-stop.1803310326020500344)
I don't know why people are getting so argumentative about the Verstappen/Norris incident. It is obvious that they were both getting increasingly frustrated, they both started to drive increasingly aggressively, and it resulted in the contact. It was a racing incident.
my qualm is not specifically about this specific incident but, the overal trend that when things get competitive at the top end, the only solution is to get more aggressive/reckless.
in this case norris had the alternative tyre strategy and given proper race etiquette we could have an exiting couple laps of drs swapping and seeing who has to composure and planning to be on the right position on the final lap, but all those nuances get thrown into the wind because neither driver can trust the other to actually have a modicum of reason in their driving.
Moving under braking is not a “defensive masterclass” lol
Max’s first few reactionary moves were pretty bad. I’d even argue Max moving late is what caused Norris to lock up and overshoot the corner (which resulted in his 5s penalty).
No one will be able to get any overtakes done if that’s allowed.
Nah this sport is sliding down because they stopped enforcing any of the rules and Verstappen is still fine to just run everyone off track and cause collisions.
Sure. It’s only Verstappen right? Man what is you guys’ problem with the dude. So clear he’s there to race within the limits presented to the drivers by the stewards. Yes it was ugly, yes it was his fault. But also yes Norris could’ve made a lot cleaner moves aswell
It's not like Norris was doing much better. Something was bound to happen eventually, it just so happens that it was Verstappen.
I'm honestly just enjoying the fallout from this lmao.
Holy shit. I'd love to be able to watch it with you and point my finger at the screen so that I'm confident we're watching the same race.
Norris was not driving fine. Max was defending hard but cleanly.
Norris was doing stupid divebombs repeatedly, and got a 5 second penalty for track limits. If I'm honest, Max probably should've gotten a penalty for a different move earlier on. This one was way more mild in comparison, and is essentially just a racing incident.
Where was Norris supposed to go at turn 3 when Verstappen defended the inside and then moved all the way back to the outside right before the corner every lap?
Norris picks a braking line not colliding with Max, They're both braking at 100%. Max changes his braking line mid zone, Norris cannot brake any harder and now has someone in front of him. It's literally not an option.
That's why moving under braking is against the rules. It's also why moving all the way back to the outside after defending is illegal. You have to leave a car's width on the outside so that the trailing car can avoid a crash if they need to.
This is why I dislike Max Verstappen so much. He does this shit every time. He creates some kind of dangerous situation, and his fans find some way to blame it on the other driver for driving close to Verstappen.
>That's why moving under braking is against the rules. It's also why moving all the way back to the outside after defending is illegal. You have to leave a car's width on the outside so that the trailing car can avoid a crash if they need to.
You're allowed to move to defend and then get back on the racing line. If you're talking about the incident that had them colliding, then Lando had room around the outside. He couldn't take that line around the outside because he came in way too hot. Divebomb after inpatient divebomb.
That shit ain't gonna work against Max. As far as I can tell, he was applying the rules to their absolute limit, but not going over. Lando needed to be smarter than Max, not just faster, if he had any hope of passing.
the track limits weren't really anything to do with the incidents with Max though.
the one where he did run wide when trying the overtake was questionable anyway since Max moved under braking again.
If it were deemed a racing incident, Verstappen should not have got a penalty. Do you think the stewards made a mistake?
The reality that there was aggressive driving on both parts is separate to the incident itself.
> Do you think the stewards made a mistake?
Yes. Not even the first mistake they made this weekend; and stewards change every race but the precedent is not great.
At least your comment makes sense. A lot of people here seem to think the penalty was imposed but did not imply fault.
Personally I think Norris was over-estimating Max's movements on previous corners, but there were several movements through this corner. It looked sketch to me, but I don't claim any great authority.
The comparison with how Max himself overtook Carlos in the same position last year (including the same defense from Carlos) sealed the deal for me. Max went left onto the kerbs but with 2 wheels still on track, then switched back in the corner, neither of which Lando thought to do.
Though if someone claims that Max started the whole aggressive driving exchange with his sketchy potential double-move under braking a few laps earlier - I can't disagree.
Max was in a much faster car than Carlos last year, at a different stage in the race. It was a very different call, and the comparison is not useful. Of course you can drop back and take the inside line when your car is simply better than the competitor.
I have seen this comparison and I have seen it roundly debunked. I honestly think that the now likable Max has supporters who have forgotten that he is a ruthless competitor who drives on the edge when he needs to--like all of the top drivers.
It's not a case of him being some arch-villain. It's a case of a driver who straddles the line when things are tight, and therefore crosses it from time to time--like Hamilton and Schumacker and Senna and...
Lando also had a faster car though... Max's entry was still compromised even if he veered to the outside as much as he can, Lando would have had just as good of a corner exit, in a faster car, with DRS incoming in 2 seconds.
There was not nearly the pace differential between Lando and Max as there was with Max and Carlos. Against Carlos, Max was simply picking the point where he would win the race.
Max veered to the outside more than was optimal. Hence the deviation and resultant crash. He did this to compromise Lando's position.
The idea that Lando had another move available is an inadequate excuse for Max's manoeuvre. The valid explanation was that Max was pushing the limits, like all champions do. He went too far, but if you don't go too far occasionally then often you won't be going far enough.
An easy 10 second penalty seemed apt. A lot of armchair stewards think they know better than the real stewards, but nothing I have seen is more convincing than their ruling.
Alex Brundle in the post-race seemed to think that (despite what the FIA may say) Max wasn't actually punished for the racing behavior but rather the consequences of it. That - had there not been any contact or even some contact but nothing but a wheel bang - then the FIA wouldn't have cared. It was only because it was for the lead and led to a Lando DNF that he was penalized.
IDK if that constitutes a mistake, a just penalty, or even an appeasement for McLaren call (I can only imagine the fallout from them if Max hadn't gotten penalized) but ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
In my mind it's a racing incident between two drivers who were getting increasingly frustrated kinda simple as that
You don't get punished because an accident happened. You get punished because you were at fault.
You can debate the steward's ruling, or the severity, but they blamed Meax and deemed him to have offended, whatever Brundle said. What do you think?
Dude no lol. We all know now in f1 people get penalised if there was a particular negative outcome. If there was no puncture, there would be no penalty.
Dude so what lol. There would probably have been no investigation if there had been no crash. The punishment was because Max was found at fault.
Like. Your response is simplistic to the point of being misleading.
> You don't get punished because an accident happened. You get punished because you were at fault.
In theory, sure. In practice? I don't know about that.
Me personally? It’s hard racing. I’m not a driver so I won’t pretend to be an expert.
But Max was defending very aggressively and generally operates ala Senna. “Either you move or we crash”. He may be more experienced in terms of keeping it impersonal and maybe more experience at picking his battles but he’s still a dog with a bone when it comes to the race that he was in 2021.
IMO Lando on the other hand was getting increasingly frustrated and then erratic/emotionally driven. His divebombs were later and a lot closer of racing than he would admit to. And I have to be honest, i do feel like because Lando has the fastest car that part of him seems to feel like the wins are already or should be his to the win. Or at the very least his fans and interviewers feel the same (for example, Lawrence saying the win should have been Lando’s which is a WILD thing to say as a journalist)
Lawrence was the first to start the Max Verstappen hate train lol. I think he was the one who said Verstappen was just average after his first brilliant raindrive in Brazil
it's hilarious - I want to be able to take British commentators seriously but they really make it difficult don't they.
Not to mention Rachel (Brooks I think) telling Lando Max said he was disappointed in him. Which was a straight up \*lie\* because Max said he was disappointed in his \*team\*
It's just like, so you're not even bothering to hide your bias and lack of care for what's true - interesting
How can you start a comment so correct and end it so wrongfully?
Yes, Norris got frustrated after multiple attempts of Max moving under braking, so he sent it up the outside in desperation, and Max just rammed him off circuit.
No racing incident about it, Max was in the wrong and has received penalties for exactly this behaviour in the past.
Max didn't "Ram him off the circuit" lol, they slightly touched, sure max left less room than he probably thought but let's not act like he sent Norris flying off the track
One of the best races of the season IMO and not just because Haas matched their best ever result. It seemed like there were battles through out the race, all of which were consequential. Plus, the TV direction seemed to show all of them (except Perez and Hulk, but that's purely bias on my part).
Leading up to the collision, Lando had a bunch of dive bomvs with out a real shot at overtaking IMO. Max is ultimately responsible for the contact. He was maybe 3cm too far over, but that's all it took for the initial contact. It would have been a 5s penalty for max and a podium (probably a win with the penalty) for Lando if Lando doesn't turn into Max.
I'm feeling even more sorry for KMag specifically. He got team order to not overtake Hulk and he wasn't even on the celebration photo with the whole team (or at least, not visibly).
This race, and some of the incidents in it, remind my why there are some things specific to Formula 1 that are appealing.
1. The crowd is not as polarized as at a two-team match. Everyone has fans, and most fans respect that. There are no football match style riots.
2. People cheer at exciting action, no matter who their favorite driver is. Every overtake gets an applause.
3. Most viewers hold their breath at close battles. People get more excited by an overtake than by a crash. Nobody says "that's right, get him" when a driver wrecks another. Sure, they replay the crashes afterwards on F1 TV or YT later, but they are not actually HOPING for them!
3. Every driver who walks away from a crash gets an applause for making it out safe. Honestly, this is one of my favorite things about Formula 1. Yes, there were some tragic incidents that instilled that reaction in us, but these walkaways also make us spend a respectful moment remembering those who perished. There are no team loyalties in the crowd during a crash; everyone is glad for the survivors.
4. People always find something to cheer about, and all drivers get fan love from the stands when they are out of the vehicle waving back.
5. Fan outfit and accessory creativity in the stands. Just truly amazing.
6. Teams and/or drivers from a specific country both get love, even if one of the drivers on that team is not from that country.
7. Drivers get a lot of spotlight, but everyone knows how many elements in the team it takes to even finish a race, let alone win one.
8. First Grand Prix win by a driver is celebrated by other drivers. They all remember THEIR first time. (Hamilton cheering on Norris was a great example in a different race. Russell also got a lot of love in this particular race, even though it was not his first win.)
9. Especially lately, people cheer for something DIFFERENT, when someone DIFFERENT wins.
10. Underdogs get cheers when they shine (thinking about Haas on wets in a previous race).
Number one takeaway from this race? Everyone finished unharmed.
Good points well made.
Russell was very much under the radar this weekend, but he drove a solid race and was in prime position to pick up the pieces. Somewhere that Checo should have been but alas.
Absolutely. Nobody will argue that there are (scientifically speaking, as in a complex system) chaotic events and variables in every race, but Russell did not just happen to be in that position by accident. He had been performing the entire race and adapted and followed-through. Credit equally goes to his team. They have been stepping up the last few races and are keeping at it.
On point 1 - have we not had several incidences of wide spread sexual harassment, assault, racism, burning of effigies and further back fans in blackface?
There will definitely be incidents, even very ugly incidents in any sport, nobody denies that, but they do not represent the majority of the fanbase. This point was more specific to the general lack of polarization, which is unlikely to occur when you have ten teams instead of just two and drivers switch teams often, and the lack of the type of riots that cancel entire football or basketball games. That lack of riots probably also has to do a bit with the first part of the point, lack of polarization.
All this back and forth on who's right and who's wrong, I think the commentators said it best tbh. To McLaren and Norris, they said "welcome to the front" in the Verstappen era. You have to make some tough choices that'll decide races. You can be right on your take of what happened, but holding your ground can result in a DNF and it not matter anyways.
Maybe Lando needs to consult Lewis on his experience lmao.
What I genuinely don't understand is Lando's call to DNF when McLaren seemed to think at first he could maybe still get some points? From the outside it seems if you're in a championship battle - however long of a shot - you need every point you can. Why \*willingly give up\* when you could still make a go of it?
If I recall they talked about it but with getting to the pit a lot slower, serving a penalty, plus having to change the front wing they came to a conclusion where they wouldn't get into points and saved the car. The worst part of this though is a lap before, max took back position off course which he ultimately didn't give back. Rather than wait for a call or penalty to be served, they don't get a chance due to the DNF.
Yeah I think if both of the drivers knew/realized that both of them were at risk or had gotten penalties incoming then they would have raced differently but they're also drivers so maybe not. Finishing first by penalty doesn't probably have the same feeling as crossing that line first
I think the two mercs, two mclarens, and two ferarris should just draw straws or round robin who's turn it is to wreck max.
That was one of the more interesting races all year, both because of the slow pit stops but also because lando and max canceled eachother leaving George to clean up his second ever F1 P1.
>I think the two mercs, two mclarens, and two ferarris should just draw straws or round robin who's turn it is let max wreck them.
FTFY lol.
There was a lot of good racing yesterday, even beyond max and Lando.
Indeed, points are given for half the places. Then this becomes a math equation.
Well, shoot... those 0's for dnf's really add up.
I was trying to run the numbers like a Nash equilibrium and... the only way to make it work is if someone from the back (who is more often out of the points anyways) were to do the job.
Can someone explain to me all of the fervor over the lando max crash? As a newer to F1 fan, it seems like it is a split second decision that could have happened at any time during the race. I don't get the penalty or the controversy. What is lunging and or the bombing people are talking about? When is it okay versus not? It seems very subjective. Also, defensive braking is a thing...you cannot slam on your brakes like someone is tailgating you on the way to get groceries (joking - i drive a GT-R, no one tailgates me!), however when is defensive braking allowed versus not. Give me the 30000 foot view. When the analyst explain it I cannot see the differences because I don't know what I am looking for.
Thanks
Oh! One other thing that I would add is that, since F1 has risen in popularity, Max has largely dominated the grid. And as such, not a lot of really hard racing for the wins and championships has been happening. So I think for some fans (and Lando in particular seems to have a lot of younger/newer fans) this is the first time they're seeing really hard wheel to wheel racing in F1 \*and\* it also happened to cause their fave driver to either DNF/lose/get a penalty which I would imagine also adds to the fervor of response
For those who have watched Formula 1 for a while this type of racing is likely familiar so it's less of a shock to the system so to speak
>For those who have watched Formula 1 for a while this type of racing is likely familiar so it's less of a shock to the system so to speak
Not so much. My reaction was more "oh, there he is again. It's been a while" referring to Max. Although truthfully, you could see the contact coming from about 3-4 laps prior at least. Not to mention Max was driving angry after his slow stop which helps nobody.
I mean Lando was also driving angry let's not pretend. Russell himself said he knew by how angry/fired up Lando was that something was likely to happen.
Every corner there’s this game of risk/reward to push the limits of the rules. And drivers competing for wins/championships are more willing to push those limits to come out ahead.
We saw Max move under the braking and Lando divebombed Max. Both are considered dangerous and can cause a collision.
You’re not allowed to steer left or right into a corner to block an overtake (basically brake checking) and ur not allowed to overtake by exceeding track limits and/or forcing opponent off track (divebombing).
Both rules had a part to play in the incident. And both drivers seemed frustrated and more aggressive after seeing each other push the limit in previous laps.
In the incident, Max squeezed Lando to the outside and Lando wasn’t having it, because he would be would lose his chance to overtake (and stay on track). So they came together.
Max was determined at fault for pulling left and causing an incident.
Edit: I just watched the onboard, and it appears to me, that Max never turned the wheel left after applying the breaks into the corner when the incident happened and did leave enough space on the outside. So there is a degree of subjectivity in that I do think he was moving on the breaking in previous laps but not the corner where they made contact.
That is very helpful, the right or left into a corner to block an overtake is what they are looking for - the commentary should explain it for fans like that :)
Forcing an opponent off track would be going into a corner too fast where you have to slide to the outside when you are to the inside of the thereby “pushing” them off track or causing a collision? Is that roughly correct?
Really great analysis \^\^\^ the only thing I would add too is the reputation of Max who - especially in his early days - had a history of very hard racing, aggressive maneuvers that ultimately often ended in someone crashing. All of that is to say, Max has a reputation of very hard racing, some people love that about him (it's partly why he has 3 WDCs) but it also can prime others to react very intensely when he's involved in a scrap.
There's also an element to be said of Lando being British and \*some\* fans (not all) would argue that he gets special treatment by.British commentators (who make up a large portion of race presenters, analysts, and pundits. Which, again only some, fans would argue leads to Lando getting perceived as a victim of Max here rather than a racing incident.
I tried to be as objective as I could here but I am not unbiased so I welcome other people's thoughts/additions
Max has a reputation from his early days for reckless driving. So may dislike him, also for how he won his first championship.
Yesterday he was in a duel with many people’s favourite Lando for a number of laps. People started accusing Max of moving under breaking. This is however allowed unless you make erratic changes of direction (and sometimes can’t be avoided). Despite these claims I have seen no footage confirming that Max did this in an erratic way and he wasn’t penalised for it.
Than they crashed and the British press started to portray max as the anti-Christ while ignoring Lando’s penalty caused by his late breaking (dive-bombing) which caused him to leave the track multiple times.
In reality both drivers were racing on the limit and neither did something horrible and fans and media are overreacting.
>People started accusing Max of moving under breaking. This is however allowed unless you make erratic changes of direction (and sometimes can’t be avoided).
Sure and moving by reacting to the driver behind (i.e driving in your mirrors) is very much the definition of erratic driving, which is what Max was doing for laps prior to the collision.
>fans and media are overreacting.
But that if you ask me is why F1 is appealing high stakes . it's always exciting seeing racing on the limit for me lando should just be calling HAM rn 😂 cause he has a huge challenge in his hands if he ever don't want to be second best
There's a race start, maybe Saudi '23 (someone please correct me) where max starts from pole and, rather than drive straight ahead from the start line he drives at this extremely weird hard angle... in order to force the guy in p2 to brake and avoid him.
Rule says one move is allowed and more than one is not. Max's move was one continuous clear across the track move to block the 2nd place driver, but technically he did indeed do it in one action.
They're talking about waiting until very deep in the corner to brake and turn.
It's kindof like a multi-million-dollar game of chicken.
Alonso was quoted recently that he would hold out longer because the other guy had 3 kids and he had none.
Norris cost Piastri the win yesterday.
He knew he had a rear puncture and still purposely drove as fast as physically possible, causing all the debris for the vsc. Without the vsc, Piastri wins every time.
Every single person known to man knows rear punctures do this. Part of me thinks he's selfish enough to not want Piastri to take the limelight away from him.
Not really. Russell clearly had enough pace to hold to gap, until the final few laps where he stopped pushing as hard as the gap was sufficient to not take any risks.
Not to mention with how high the deg was, the mediums would have been not much faster than the hards at that point and likely at a crossover point.
I cant help but feel GP would have told Verstappen to slow the fuck down if he was in that position and Perez was chasing Russell.
Its something the team should be looking at.
Some of the commentary from sky and surprisingly F1TV was just downright embarrassing. It genuinely feels like some of them were relishing in the chance to shit on Max and I guarantee these same people this weekend will be talking about how fans shouldn’t be booing Max as if they don’t play a part in it.
Have to agree with this even though I’m British. Martin Brundle in particular has always been open anti-Max, which is fine, he’s a British commentator etc etc. but his comments today saying ‘I’ve always been a fan of max but this is his fault’. Embarrassing lack of self-awareness, it’s always Max’s fault in his commentary.
There was fault on both sides. Max weaving should have been penalised earlier. Lando dive bombing and claiming there was space + consistent track limits is also not ok.
> ‘I’ve always been a fan of max but this is his fault’.
What am I missing here? Is this showing bias? The stewards gave Max a penalty and Max himself described his driving as clumsy.
Beundle had also been calling out Lando on the previous lap saying he was sure to get a penalty for track limits.
You must have missed 90% of 2021 where Brundle spent every race weekend defending Max.
It was only when he had no way of defending him (Brazil and Jeddah) that he didn't try to.
Disagree. I think he liked seeing a break from the years of HAM BOT VER monotony (anyone who says max winning all the time is boring clearly didn’t watch from before 2020), but he wasn’t pro-Max in any year. Granted probably the least in 2021.
This really. I can understand Sky to be very biased against Max since they are British based (still sucks though, especially when they were the international feed), but F1TV? they are supposed to be the neutral one.
Maybe it's time to diversify the nationalities of F1TV commentators and analysts, there are still too many British right now and the first one to go should be Will Buxton.
I agree Max was at fault.
But if you only see the incident from the same perspective for an international feed (this time British for F1TV), you will only get a very biased commentary and analysis when F1TV is supposed to be the objective and neutral one.
So, directly accusing me of Xenophobia is not wise when I only want more diversification in F1TV commentary team.
I have a conspiracy. Norris, Stella and Mclaren know that they won't win a championship this year. But next year is shaping up to be a good fight. But they are going to fight for every win and decision this year in order to prep the stewards and FIA for next year. If they can limit Max's defence tactics, they'll have a much better shot at fighting him. If this race and crash has done anything, it has realerted the stewards and FIA to Max's questionable tactics and whether it should be allowed
What do you mean questionable tactics? Did you watch the racing between them? Max was braking in a straight line but not completely parallel to the white line, while Lando followed the white line and refused to use any curb (which many cars did use). They touched wheels, it wasn't side pod bashing. I don't see how you can say that there are questionable tactics ongoing.
He literally drove Lando onto the grass while nursing his puncture on the straight up to turn 4. Tell me that isn't questionable tactics. Also, Lando is entitled to a car's width and isn't obliged to use the kerb.
If you argue car's width, go back and check, there was a car's width and Lando didn't need to drive into the grass there. As far as the curb goes, no he isn't obliged to use the curb but he has the option to use the curb. It is not a sausage curb that will throw you off for the corner, so many cars are successfully using that curb to widen their entry for a cutback move. That is obviously not what Lando was planning to do in this particular instance. Listen to what Peter Windsor has to say about the battle. There wasn't anything questionable, its called racing.
> If you argue car's width, go back and check, there was a car's width and Lando didn't need to drive into the grass there.
[Lol](https://imgur.com/a/7HPjo4H)
> As far as the curb goes, no he isn't obliged to use the curb but he has the option to use the curb.
Typical of racing Max right? You're not obliged to avoid racing him altogether and pull out of wheel to wheel battles, but if you don't, then there's contact.
I'm all for hard racing, and I'd say for a large part their battle was just that. But forcing a driver off track under braking (or else you crash) and driving someone off the road on a straight with a damaged car isn't that my friend. At the very least though, you should check your own claims before defending this BS and calling it hard racing. Peace out.
Not quite. Max was parallel with the white line and drifted left after he had started braking for the corner.
His excuse was and I'm paraphrasing "the racing line means you go left before turning right". He admitted he did it himself, just without admitting any blame.
The issue is literally that, because he did that without leaving enough space. You said the rules allow it and hence Max didn't admit blame, but he did get a penalty for doing that because the rules don't allow it lol.
OP seemed to claim that Max didn't admit blame for moving to the racing line under breaking - if that's what he claims, then I am right. Max did not and should not have admitted anything because that's perfectly legal. The issue is that in moving to the line he didn't leave enough space *and* caused a collision. So the move itself was legal, just performed in an illegal manner.
Yes, but he only got a penalty after they crashed. If there was no crash, the stewards would not have penalised Max, and his illegal driving would have gone unpunished. I think Mclaren is trying to influence that and change it, so that when there is an actual title fight, the stewards will be more critical of Max
Lando destroyed his own car by driving to fast on a flat. His damage was less after the contact compared to Max’s.
Also this has never been considered before remember Bottas divebombing Max out of the race in Hungary iirc that same year of the big drama?
Yes and I felt bad for Max there. He didn't deserve to be out of the race. Bottas also hit Norris there. As a result, Bottas got a 5 place penalty for the next race. It is nice that Bottas's wreckless drive was punished but I still don't think it is enough.
Drivers should not be able to take another driver's right to drive in a race.
How about this: If you take a driver out of this race at Lap X, next race you can only race until Lap X. Drivers would be much more careful this way.
Two great races in a row. Never did I think this season was going to be an interesting one!
Re watched the race. While I think race control and Stewards really were on it, they just weren't quick enough for Max and Lando's 10-11 lap battle. In my understanding, there were enough flagrant violations there. Max used every trick in his arsenal to stay in the lead. He got 10s for the collision he caused, but got away with overtaking outside the lines and not giving the place back. I don't know if he was investigated for this. Definitely didn't get a penalty. In essence, somethings should have been investigated, even after the penalty. Further, I think this is a learning moment for Lando. Overtaking Max is different than overtaking a midfield car who'll gladly save tyres instead of fight tooth and nail.
It is a bit shocking that Lando expected better from Max.
[https://imgur.com/AOQxo1F](https://imgur.com/AOQxo1F)
Return drive through penalties
Agreed. I'm not sure it would have made a big difference in this case but I like the idea of forcing drivers to serve the penalties immediately. I think drive through should be the default for "causing a collision" and time penalties should just be for lesser offences like pitlane speeding or track limits. I presume that Max would have been allowed to pit for a new tyre and then would have had to serve the penalty after?
Yes, and he already pitted before the penalty came anyway so that wouldn't be a problem.
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It's getting harder to defend Perez these days. Qualified P8 and finished ~~P8~~ P7 most likely because Lando retired, and was stuck behind Nico. Someone else deserves a chance in that seat Edit: he finished P7
question: do you think merc is deliberately sabotaging LH since it's his last season with mercs or he's just been the slower driver between himself and Russell in awhile now?
answer: no
Didn't he have a big hole in his side pod?
He picked that up with like 7 laps left running into some debris. The damage from the first incident wasn't really that much.
Skill issue
He did yeah, but how is he always in these positions where he gets damage on the first lap and loses performance
Odd how he somehow always manages to get enough damage to not impact his pace much at all - he was just as far behind all weekend - but big enough for people to give him an excuse. Why does him being unable to not crash into people and get damage count FOR him instead of against?
The next good track for Sergio is Baku and that's in September. That's Silverstone, Hungary, Spa, Zandvoort, and Monza where he's be lucky to finish in the top 5.
there is no reason for professional drivers pace to be significant;y better at one track compared to another. He's not suddenly going to turn up at Baku and be good again.
Ok, yea, you have no idea what you're talking about.
He struggles more relative to Max at the front limited circuits, because Max can cope with a much stronger front end than he can.
you're talking small margins. He should be finishing podiums regardless of that.
Im thinking his car is inferior...
The human is inferior, the car is winning races just fine.
Yeah, there's no reason that Perez should have ended behind Max who had a compromised car and race pace by the end of it. His primary role is supposed to be securing any wins Max isn't able to get and yet, he wasn't anywhere close.
Yeah I forgot to add that Max had to limp back to the pits and had a 10 second penalty, Perez should have been on the podium at least
Numerous other drivers would have won that race in the second RB20.
Oh to be in the minds of Albon and Gasly as they see this shit show. They both got cut so brutally and to see Perez get seemingly unlimited leeway must really be some bullshit to them
Gasly got cut so brutally that they kept him around for four more years helping him rebuild his reputation. Wow, really terrible. And poor Albon, with the whole team going out of their way to give him credit for his sim work in 2021. And he retained his personal sponsorships. Unreal how mean they were to him.
I didn't say that getting cut was inexcusable or that there was no reason for it - but I do think it would be eyebrow raising for both of them that Checo can continue to have extremely poor performances and not get demoted
Did Lando still get Drivers of the Day point after DNF??
It doesn’t award points.
oh? i thought they awarded 1 point for DOTD?? my bad😭
Points for WCC and WDC are only rewarded for Sprint race position (P1-P8), GP position (P1-10) and fastest lap in GP (only if the driver with the fastest lap finished in P1-10). Other metrics (like fastest pitstop, DotD, best overtake of the month, etc.) may be linked to prizes or might have separate rankings, but these won't affect the WDC or WCC.
lol you would think so with how people react to it
If Oscar hadn’t got the penalty from quali, would he be the race winner instead of George?
if checo didn't push him off he probably would've been the race winner
Impossible thing to ask - if he’d been there would Lando and Max be fighting in that way causing the crash? McLaren having two cars would have maybe given them strategic advantage
Has anyone ever overtaken Max around the outside of a corner for a win, podium or significant position? I can’t think of a single time this has happened so hopefully someone with a better memory can chime in?
i think once Bottas overtook him at Austria, it was notable because its honestly the first time i can remember an overtake done by or to Max that wasn't controversial.
Hamilton - Hungary 2019 Also Austria 22, Leclerc's final overtake was an outside into switchback in turn 3 which is exactly what Lando should have done
Thank you! So we do have one example, Hamilton in Hungary 2019, albeit one where Max had a 24 lap tyre deficit. I’d still love to have others chime in or have more examples to come up because while I thought an outside overtake on Max was rare, I didn’t think there may be zero examples of such an overtake when both cars had similar tyres/grip to race with?
Hamilton in brazil
Not in 2021, Max drove Hamilton off when he tried to overtake on the outside then later Hamilton completed the overtake on the straight before the corner.
Had there been any explanation for Red Bull’s super slow pit stop with Max? I’m just curious to know if it was human error or something mechanical. They’re usually so on top of it. I also feel like this was a turning point for Max’s frustration.
It looked like it was a tool malfunction where the wheel gun failed. In the broadcast, the guy on the rear left I think had to hit the wheel twice to get it off.
Yes and they were being extra cautious to avoid an unsafe release after the previous close call
I don’t know enough about F1 cars to know if this is something that can actually happen, but it kind of looked like the wheel nut was stuck. [They never switched guns. It just took two tries to get it off the car.](https://www.formula1.com/en/video/2024-austrian-grand-prix-norris-gains-on-verstappen-after-slow-red-bull-pit-stop.1803310326020500344)
If the wheel nut is stuck, then it was probably cross threaded. It happens.
I don't know why people are getting so argumentative about the Verstappen/Norris incident. It is obvious that they were both getting increasingly frustrated, they both started to drive increasingly aggressively, and it resulted in the contact. It was a racing incident.
It's not a racing incident if one driver drives into the other.
my qualm is not specifically about this specific incident but, the overal trend that when things get competitive at the top end, the only solution is to get more aggressive/reckless. in this case norris had the alternative tyre strategy and given proper race etiquette we could have an exiting couple laps of drs swapping and seeing who has to composure and planning to be on the right position on the final lap, but all those nuances get thrown into the wind because neither driver can trust the other to actually have a modicum of reason in their driving.
Sorry, what? We saw a defensive masterclass until Norris couldn't keep it in his pants any longer and just smashed into Verstappen.
What race were you watching?
Moving under braking is not a “defensive masterclass” lol Max’s first few reactionary moves were pretty bad. I’d even argue Max moving late is what caused Norris to lock up and overshoot the corner (which resulted in his 5s penalty). No one will be able to get any overtakes done if that’s allowed.
Yeah it was silly and unnecessary but I've seen people acting like it was Jerez 1997. It wasn't really a massive deal
it was filthy driving from Verstappen, which is usual.
bro casually spewing hate in this thread. Fans like you are why this sport is sliding down.
Nah this sport is sliding down because they stopped enforcing any of the rules and Verstappen is still fine to just run everyone off track and cause collisions.
Sure. It’s only Verstappen right? Man what is you guys’ problem with the dude. So clear he’s there to race within the limits presented to the drivers by the stewards. Yes it was ugly, yes it was his fault. But also yes Norris could’ve made a lot cleaner moves aswell
It's not like Norris was doing much better. Something was bound to happen eventually, it just so happens that it was Verstappen. I'm honestly just enjoying the fallout from this lmao.
Norris was driving fine, Max was doing his usual antics.
Holy shit. I'd love to be able to watch it with you and point my finger at the screen so that I'm confident we're watching the same race. Norris was not driving fine. Max was defending hard but cleanly.
moving under braking 3 times - very clean!
Norris was doing stupid divebombs repeatedly, and got a 5 second penalty for track limits. If I'm honest, Max probably should've gotten a penalty for a different move earlier on. This one was way more mild in comparison, and is essentially just a racing incident.
Where was Norris supposed to go at turn 3 when Verstappen defended the inside and then moved all the way back to the outside right before the corner every lap?
...the brake pedal.
Norris picks a braking line not colliding with Max, They're both braking at 100%. Max changes his braking line mid zone, Norris cannot brake any harder and now has someone in front of him. It's literally not an option. That's why moving under braking is against the rules. It's also why moving all the way back to the outside after defending is illegal. You have to leave a car's width on the outside so that the trailing car can avoid a crash if they need to. This is why I dislike Max Verstappen so much. He does this shit every time. He creates some kind of dangerous situation, and his fans find some way to blame it on the other driver for driving close to Verstappen.
>That's why moving under braking is against the rules. It's also why moving all the way back to the outside after defending is illegal. You have to leave a car's width on the outside so that the trailing car can avoid a crash if they need to. You're allowed to move to defend and then get back on the racing line. If you're talking about the incident that had them colliding, then Lando had room around the outside. He couldn't take that line around the outside because he came in way too hot. Divebomb after inpatient divebomb. That shit ain't gonna work against Max. As far as I can tell, he was applying the rules to their absolute limit, but not going over. Lando needed to be smarter than Max, not just faster, if he had any hope of passing.
the track limits weren't really anything to do with the incidents with Max though. the one where he did run wide when trying the overtake was questionable anyway since Max moved under braking again.
If it were deemed a racing incident, Verstappen should not have got a penalty. Do you think the stewards made a mistake? The reality that there was aggressive driving on both parts is separate to the incident itself.
>Do you think the stewards made a mistake? Yes.
How informative. I trust your judgement implicitly, of course.
> Do you think the stewards made a mistake? Yes. Not even the first mistake they made this weekend; and stewards change every race but the precedent is not great.
At least your comment makes sense. A lot of people here seem to think the penalty was imposed but did not imply fault. Personally I think Norris was over-estimating Max's movements on previous corners, but there were several movements through this corner. It looked sketch to me, but I don't claim any great authority.
The comparison with how Max himself overtook Carlos in the same position last year (including the same defense from Carlos) sealed the deal for me. Max went left onto the kerbs but with 2 wheels still on track, then switched back in the corner, neither of which Lando thought to do. Though if someone claims that Max started the whole aggressive driving exchange with his sketchy potential double-move under braking a few laps earlier - I can't disagree.
Max was in a much faster car than Carlos last year, at a different stage in the race. It was a very different call, and the comparison is not useful. Of course you can drop back and take the inside line when your car is simply better than the competitor. I have seen this comparison and I have seen it roundly debunked. I honestly think that the now likable Max has supporters who have forgotten that he is a ruthless competitor who drives on the edge when he needs to--like all of the top drivers. It's not a case of him being some arch-villain. It's a case of a driver who straddles the line when things are tight, and therefore crosses it from time to time--like Hamilton and Schumacker and Senna and...
Lando also had a faster car though... Max's entry was still compromised even if he veered to the outside as much as he can, Lando would have had just as good of a corner exit, in a faster car, with DRS incoming in 2 seconds.
There was not nearly the pace differential between Lando and Max as there was with Max and Carlos. Against Carlos, Max was simply picking the point where he would win the race. Max veered to the outside more than was optimal. Hence the deviation and resultant crash. He did this to compromise Lando's position. The idea that Lando had another move available is an inadequate excuse for Max's manoeuvre. The valid explanation was that Max was pushing the limits, like all champions do. He went too far, but if you don't go too far occasionally then often you won't be going far enough. An easy 10 second penalty seemed apt. A lot of armchair stewards think they know better than the real stewards, but nothing I have seen is more convincing than their ruling.
It was hard defending from Max for sure. A penalty for squeezing Norris too hard to the left (and thus causing a collision) can be argued either way.
Alex Brundle in the post-race seemed to think that (despite what the FIA may say) Max wasn't actually punished for the racing behavior but rather the consequences of it. That - had there not been any contact or even some contact but nothing but a wheel bang - then the FIA wouldn't have cared. It was only because it was for the lead and led to a Lando DNF that he was penalized. IDK if that constitutes a mistake, a just penalty, or even an appeasement for McLaren call (I can only imagine the fallout from them if Max hadn't gotten penalized) but ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ In my mind it's a racing incident between two drivers who were getting increasingly frustrated kinda simple as that
You don't get punished because an accident happened. You get punished because you were at fault. You can debate the steward's ruling, or the severity, but they blamed Meax and deemed him to have offended, whatever Brundle said. What do you think?
Dude no lol. We all know now in f1 people get penalised if there was a particular negative outcome. If there was no puncture, there would be no penalty.
Dude so what lol. There would probably have been no investigation if there had been no crash. The punishment was because Max was found at fault. Like. Your response is simplistic to the point of being misleading.
> You don't get punished because an accident happened. You get punished because you were at fault. In theory, sure. In practice? I don't know about that.
You get investigated because of the accident. You get punished because you were in the wrong.
Me personally? It’s hard racing. I’m not a driver so I won’t pretend to be an expert. But Max was defending very aggressively and generally operates ala Senna. “Either you move or we crash”. He may be more experienced in terms of keeping it impersonal and maybe more experience at picking his battles but he’s still a dog with a bone when it comes to the race that he was in 2021. IMO Lando on the other hand was getting increasingly frustrated and then erratic/emotionally driven. His divebombs were later and a lot closer of racing than he would admit to. And I have to be honest, i do feel like because Lando has the fastest car that part of him seems to feel like the wins are already or should be his to the win. Or at the very least his fans and interviewers feel the same (for example, Lawrence saying the win should have been Lando’s which is a WILD thing to say as a journalist)
Lawrence was the first to start the Max Verstappen hate train lol. I think he was the one who said Verstappen was just average after his first brilliant raindrive in Brazil
it's hilarious - I want to be able to take British commentators seriously but they really make it difficult don't they. Not to mention Rachel (Brooks I think) telling Lando Max said he was disappointed in him. Which was a straight up \*lie\* because Max said he was disappointed in his \*team\* It's just like, so you're not even bothering to hide your bias and lack of care for what's true - interesting
Wish more people would see and realise that. And hopefully we'd be able to stop that type of behaviour. It's really annoying
How can you start a comment so correct and end it so wrongfully? Yes, Norris got frustrated after multiple attempts of Max moving under braking, so he sent it up the outside in desperation, and Max just rammed him off circuit. No racing incident about it, Max was in the wrong and has received penalties for exactly this behaviour in the past.
Ah, the old Hamilton Copse special
Max didn't "Ram him off the circuit" lol, they slightly touched, sure max left less room than he probably thought but let's not act like he sent Norris flying off the track
Yes Max squeezed, it was not a ram, exaggeration there
One of the best races of the season IMO and not just because Haas matched their best ever result. It seemed like there were battles through out the race, all of which were consequential. Plus, the TV direction seemed to show all of them (except Perez and Hulk, but that's purely bias on my part). Leading up to the collision, Lando had a bunch of dive bomvs with out a real shot at overtaking IMO. Max is ultimately responsible for the contact. He was maybe 3cm too far over, but that's all it took for the initial contact. It would have been a 5s penalty for max and a podium (probably a win with the penalty) for Lando if Lando doesn't turn into Max.
Honestly I feel bad for Haas. Any other week and this would have been the major story - instead they get buried by the boys fighting
I'm feeling even more sorry for KMag specifically. He got team order to not overtake Hulk and he wasn't even on the celebration photo with the whole team (or at least, not visibly).
Rubbing is racing.
Sadly that doesn't work very well in open wheel racing.
I race at least once a day
Amateur
Days of Thunder lol
This race, and some of the incidents in it, remind my why there are some things specific to Formula 1 that are appealing. 1. The crowd is not as polarized as at a two-team match. Everyone has fans, and most fans respect that. There are no football match style riots. 2. People cheer at exciting action, no matter who their favorite driver is. Every overtake gets an applause. 3. Most viewers hold their breath at close battles. People get more excited by an overtake than by a crash. Nobody says "that's right, get him" when a driver wrecks another. Sure, they replay the crashes afterwards on F1 TV or YT later, but they are not actually HOPING for them! 3. Every driver who walks away from a crash gets an applause for making it out safe. Honestly, this is one of my favorite things about Formula 1. Yes, there were some tragic incidents that instilled that reaction in us, but these walkaways also make us spend a respectful moment remembering those who perished. There are no team loyalties in the crowd during a crash; everyone is glad for the survivors. 4. People always find something to cheer about, and all drivers get fan love from the stands when they are out of the vehicle waving back. 5. Fan outfit and accessory creativity in the stands. Just truly amazing. 6. Teams and/or drivers from a specific country both get love, even if one of the drivers on that team is not from that country. 7. Drivers get a lot of spotlight, but everyone knows how many elements in the team it takes to even finish a race, let alone win one. 8. First Grand Prix win by a driver is celebrated by other drivers. They all remember THEIR first time. (Hamilton cheering on Norris was a great example in a different race. Russell also got a lot of love in this particular race, even though it was not his first win.) 9. Especially lately, people cheer for something DIFFERENT, when someone DIFFERENT wins. 10. Underdogs get cheers when they shine (thinking about Haas on wets in a previous race). Number one takeaway from this race? Everyone finished unharmed.
Good points well made. Russell was very much under the radar this weekend, but he drove a solid race and was in prime position to pick up the pieces. Somewhere that Checo should have been but alas.
Absolutely. Nobody will argue that there are (scientifically speaking, as in a complex system) chaotic events and variables in every race, but Russell did not just happen to be in that position by accident. He had been performing the entire race and adapted and followed-through. Credit equally goes to his team. They have been stepping up the last few races and are keeping at it.
On point 1 - have we not had several incidences of wide spread sexual harassment, assault, racism, burning of effigies and further back fans in blackface?
There will definitely be incidents, even very ugly incidents in any sport, nobody denies that, but they do not represent the majority of the fanbase. This point was more specific to the general lack of polarization, which is unlikely to occur when you have ten teams instead of just two and drivers switch teams often, and the lack of the type of riots that cancel entire football or basketball games. That lack of riots probably also has to do a bit with the first part of the point, lack of polarization.
Fully agree to all of your points I was there and can confirm that.
All this back and forth on who's right and who's wrong, I think the commentators said it best tbh. To McLaren and Norris, they said "welcome to the front" in the Verstappen era. You have to make some tough choices that'll decide races. You can be right on your take of what happened, but holding your ground can result in a DNF and it not matter anyways. Maybe Lando needs to consult Lewis on his experience lmao.
What I genuinely don't understand is Lando's call to DNF when McLaren seemed to think at first he could maybe still get some points? From the outside it seems if you're in a championship battle - however long of a shot - you need every point you can. Why \*willingly give up\* when you could still make a go of it?
If I recall they talked about it but with getting to the pit a lot slower, serving a penalty, plus having to change the front wing they came to a conclusion where they wouldn't get into points and saved the car. The worst part of this though is a lap before, max took back position off course which he ultimately didn't give back. Rather than wait for a call or penalty to be served, they don't get a chance due to the DNF.
Yeah I think if both of the drivers knew/realized that both of them were at risk or had gotten penalties incoming then they would have raced differently but they're also drivers so maybe not. Finishing first by penalty doesn't probably have the same feeling as crossing that line first
I think the two mercs, two mclarens, and two ferarris should just draw straws or round robin who's turn it is to wreck max. That was one of the more interesting races all year, both because of the slow pit stops but also because lando and max canceled eachother leaving George to clean up his second ever F1 P1.
>I think the two mercs, two mclarens, and two ferarris should just draw straws or round robin who's turn it is let max wreck them. FTFY lol. There was a lot of good racing yesterday, even beyond max and Lando.
Nah stakes makes the races more than midfield squabbles 😂
Indeed, points are given for half the places. Then this becomes a math equation. Well, shoot... those 0's for dnf's really add up. I was trying to run the numbers like a Nash equilibrium and... the only way to make it work is if someone from the back (who is more often out of the points anyways) were to do the job.
Can someone explain to me all of the fervor over the lando max crash? As a newer to F1 fan, it seems like it is a split second decision that could have happened at any time during the race. I don't get the penalty or the controversy. What is lunging and or the bombing people are talking about? When is it okay versus not? It seems very subjective. Also, defensive braking is a thing...you cannot slam on your brakes like someone is tailgating you on the way to get groceries (joking - i drive a GT-R, no one tailgates me!), however when is defensive braking allowed versus not. Give me the 30000 foot view. When the analyst explain it I cannot see the differences because I don't know what I am looking for. Thanks
Oh! One other thing that I would add is that, since F1 has risen in popularity, Max has largely dominated the grid. And as such, not a lot of really hard racing for the wins and championships has been happening. So I think for some fans (and Lando in particular seems to have a lot of younger/newer fans) this is the first time they're seeing really hard wheel to wheel racing in F1 \*and\* it also happened to cause their fave driver to either DNF/lose/get a penalty which I would imagine also adds to the fervor of response For those who have watched Formula 1 for a while this type of racing is likely familiar so it's less of a shock to the system so to speak
>For those who have watched Formula 1 for a while this type of racing is likely familiar so it's less of a shock to the system so to speak Not so much. My reaction was more "oh, there he is again. It's been a while" referring to Max. Although truthfully, you could see the contact coming from about 3-4 laps prior at least. Not to mention Max was driving angry after his slow stop which helps nobody.
I mean Lando was also driving angry let's not pretend. Russell himself said he knew by how angry/fired up Lando was that something was likely to happen.
Every corner there’s this game of risk/reward to push the limits of the rules. And drivers competing for wins/championships are more willing to push those limits to come out ahead. We saw Max move under the braking and Lando divebombed Max. Both are considered dangerous and can cause a collision. You’re not allowed to steer left or right into a corner to block an overtake (basically brake checking) and ur not allowed to overtake by exceeding track limits and/or forcing opponent off track (divebombing). Both rules had a part to play in the incident. And both drivers seemed frustrated and more aggressive after seeing each other push the limit in previous laps. In the incident, Max squeezed Lando to the outside and Lando wasn’t having it, because he would be would lose his chance to overtake (and stay on track). So they came together. Max was determined at fault for pulling left and causing an incident. Edit: I just watched the onboard, and it appears to me, that Max never turned the wheel left after applying the breaks into the corner when the incident happened and did leave enough space on the outside. So there is a degree of subjectivity in that I do think he was moving on the breaking in previous laps but not the corner where they made contact.
That is very helpful, the right or left into a corner to block an overtake is what they are looking for - the commentary should explain it for fans like that :) Forcing an opponent off track would be going into a corner too fast where you have to slide to the outside when you are to the inside of the thereby “pushing” them off track or causing a collision? Is that roughly correct?
That’s right. It’s hard for commentators to fully explain because there is a grey area and the FIA isn’t consistent in how they enforce things.
Really great analysis \^\^\^ the only thing I would add too is the reputation of Max who - especially in his early days - had a history of very hard racing, aggressive maneuvers that ultimately often ended in someone crashing. All of that is to say, Max has a reputation of very hard racing, some people love that about him (it's partly why he has 3 WDCs) but it also can prime others to react very intensely when he's involved in a scrap. There's also an element to be said of Lando being British and \*some\* fans (not all) would argue that he gets special treatment by.British commentators (who make up a large portion of race presenters, analysts, and pundits. Which, again only some, fans would argue leads to Lando getting perceived as a victim of Max here rather than a racing incident. I tried to be as objective as I could here but I am not unbiased so I welcome other people's thoughts/additions
Max has a reputation from his early days for reckless driving. So may dislike him, also for how he won his first championship. Yesterday he was in a duel with many people’s favourite Lando for a number of laps. People started accusing Max of moving under breaking. This is however allowed unless you make erratic changes of direction (and sometimes can’t be avoided). Despite these claims I have seen no footage confirming that Max did this in an erratic way and he wasn’t penalised for it. Than they crashed and the British press started to portray max as the anti-Christ while ignoring Lando’s penalty caused by his late breaking (dive-bombing) which caused him to leave the track multiple times. In reality both drivers were racing on the limit and neither did something horrible and fans and media are overreacting.
>People started accusing Max of moving under breaking. This is however allowed unless you make erratic changes of direction (and sometimes can’t be avoided). Sure and moving by reacting to the driver behind (i.e driving in your mirrors) is very much the definition of erratic driving, which is what Max was doing for laps prior to the collision.
I have only seen one example of that at it was minor. Please share other and show the stewards decisions on them.
This, plus Verstappen ended P5 and scored points while Norris DNF’d.
>fans and media are overreacting. But that if you ask me is why F1 is appealing high stakes . it's always exciting seeing racing on the limit for me lando should just be calling HAM rn 😂 cause he has a huge challenge in his hands if he ever don't want to be second best
Not to sound morbid. But will be interesting to see how Max takes copse on the opening laps this weekend if he has Lando next to him.
Full send
I’d give you two upvotes if I could.
There's a race start, maybe Saudi '23 (someone please correct me) where max starts from pole and, rather than drive straight ahead from the start line he drives at this extremely weird hard angle... in order to force the guy in p2 to brake and avoid him. Rule says one move is allowed and more than one is not. Max's move was one continuous clear across the track move to block the 2nd place driver, but technically he did indeed do it in one action.
If that is the case then why did max get penalized if the onboard showed him only making one move?
but he had moved to the inside before then moving to block Lando on the outside so wouldn't that be two moves?
They're talking about waiting until very deep in the corner to brake and turn. It's kindof like a multi-million-dollar game of chicken. Alonso was quoted recently that he would hold out longer because the other guy had 3 kids and he had none.
Norris cost Piastri the win yesterday. He knew he had a rear puncture and still purposely drove as fast as physically possible, causing all the debris for the vsc. Without the vsc, Piastri wins every time. Every single person known to man knows rear punctures do this. Part of me thinks he's selfish enough to not want Piastri to take the limelight away from him.
Not really. Russell clearly had enough pace to hold to gap, until the final few laps where he stopped pushing as hard as the gap was sufficient to not take any risks. Not to mention with how high the deg was, the mediums would have been not much faster than the hards at that point and likely at a crossover point.
Oh for fucks sake
He was probably in the heat of the moment and super frustrated. He also probably wasn't aware of George vs Piastri Delta when he was fighting Max
I cant help but feel GP would have told Verstappen to slow the fuck down if he was in that position and Perez was chasing Russell. Its something the team should be looking at.
100% though. Team is less experience fighting at the top. They will learn!
Some of the commentary from sky and surprisingly F1TV was just downright embarrassing. It genuinely feels like some of them were relishing in the chance to shit on Max and I guarantee these same people this weekend will be talking about how fans shouldn’t be booing Max as if they don’t play a part in it.
Have to agree with this even though I’m British. Martin Brundle in particular has always been open anti-Max, which is fine, he’s a British commentator etc etc. but his comments today saying ‘I’ve always been a fan of max but this is his fault’. Embarrassing lack of self-awareness, it’s always Max’s fault in his commentary. There was fault on both sides. Max weaving should have been penalised earlier. Lando dive bombing and claiming there was space + consistent track limits is also not ok.
> ‘I’ve always been a fan of max but this is his fault’. What am I missing here? Is this showing bias? The stewards gave Max a penalty and Max himself described his driving as clumsy. Beundle had also been calling out Lando on the previous lap saying he was sure to get a penalty for track limits.
You must have missed 90% of 2021 where Brundle spent every race weekend defending Max. It was only when he had no way of defending him (Brazil and Jeddah) that he didn't try to.
Disagree. I think he liked seeing a break from the years of HAM BOT VER monotony (anyone who says max winning all the time is boring clearly didn’t watch from before 2020), but he wasn’t pro-Max in any year. Granted probably the least in 2021.
Funny how the cycles change - a HAM BOT VER result would be a really good race now,
This really. I can understand Sky to be very biased against Max since they are British based (still sucks though, especially when they were the international feed), but F1TV? they are supposed to be the neutral one. Maybe it's time to diversify the nationalities of F1TV commentators and analysts, there are still too many British right now and the first one to go should be Will Buxton.
It's nothing to do with being British. That's just your xenophobia shining through. Maybe, just maybe, Max was over the edge...yet again.
I agree Max was at fault. But if you only see the incident from the same perspective for an international feed (this time British for F1TV), you will only get a very biased commentary and analysis when F1TV is supposed to be the objective and neutral one. So, directly accusing me of Xenophobia is not wise when I only want more diversification in F1TV commentary team.
I have a conspiracy. Norris, Stella and Mclaren know that they won't win a championship this year. But next year is shaping up to be a good fight. But they are going to fight for every win and decision this year in order to prep the stewards and FIA for next year. If they can limit Max's defence tactics, they'll have a much better shot at fighting him. If this race and crash has done anything, it has realerted the stewards and FIA to Max's questionable tactics and whether it should be allowed
What do you mean questionable tactics? Did you watch the racing between them? Max was braking in a straight line but not completely parallel to the white line, while Lando followed the white line and refused to use any curb (which many cars did use). They touched wheels, it wasn't side pod bashing. I don't see how you can say that there are questionable tactics ongoing.
He literally drove Lando onto the grass while nursing his puncture on the straight up to turn 4. Tell me that isn't questionable tactics. Also, Lando is entitled to a car's width and isn't obliged to use the kerb.
If you argue car's width, go back and check, there was a car's width and Lando didn't need to drive into the grass there. As far as the curb goes, no he isn't obliged to use the curb but he has the option to use the curb. It is not a sausage curb that will throw you off for the corner, so many cars are successfully using that curb to widen their entry for a cutback move. That is obviously not what Lando was planning to do in this particular instance. Listen to what Peter Windsor has to say about the battle. There wasn't anything questionable, its called racing.
> If you argue car's width, go back and check, there was a car's width and Lando didn't need to drive into the grass there. [Lol](https://imgur.com/a/7HPjo4H) > As far as the curb goes, no he isn't obliged to use the curb but he has the option to use the curb. Typical of racing Max right? You're not obliged to avoid racing him altogether and pull out of wheel to wheel battles, but if you don't, then there's contact. I'm all for hard racing, and I'd say for a large part their battle was just that. But forcing a driver off track under braking (or else you crash) and driving someone off the road on a straight with a damaged car isn't that my friend. At the very least though, you should check your own claims before defending this BS and calling it hard racing. Peace out.
There was a lot of space there, a cars width.. we will never know. But by this logic you think Lando’s behavior in Spain was just as bad then?
Not quite. Max was parallel with the white line and drifted left after he had started braking for the corner. His excuse was and I'm paraphrasing "the racing line means you go left before turning right". He admitted he did it himself, just without admitting any blame.
He didn't admit blame because the rules allow it.
He didn't leave a car's width and did get a penalty.
Yes, so the issue wasn't moving back to the racing line.
The issue is literally that, because he did that without leaving enough space. You said the rules allow it and hence Max didn't admit blame, but he did get a penalty for doing that because the rules don't allow it lol.
OP seemed to claim that Max didn't admit blame for moving to the racing line under breaking - if that's what he claims, then I am right. Max did not and should not have admitted anything because that's perfectly legal. The issue is that in moving to the line he didn't leave enough space *and* caused a collision. So the move itself was legal, just performed in an illegal manner.
Fair enough, that makes sense. My bad.
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It’s not allowed, hence Why he got the penalty
Yes, but he only got a penalty after they crashed. If there was no crash, the stewards would not have penalised Max, and his illegal driving would have gone unpunished. I think Mclaren is trying to influence that and change it, so that when there is an actual title fight, the stewards will be more critical of Max
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Lando destroyed his own car by driving to fast on a flat. His damage was less after the contact compared to Max’s. Also this has never been considered before remember Bottas divebombing Max out of the race in Hungary iirc that same year of the big drama?
Yes and I felt bad for Max there. He didn't deserve to be out of the race. Bottas also hit Norris there. As a result, Bottas got a 5 place penalty for the next race. It is nice that Bottas's wreckless drive was punished but I still don't think it is enough. Drivers should not be able to take another driver's right to drive in a race. How about this: If you take a driver out of this race at Lap X, next race you can only race until Lap X. Drivers would be much more careful this way.