Pretty much this. It’s technologically impressive, but there is no machine learning involved as some people implied, so it literally pings for every blue dot in the back line. Hell, before Kastow put some manual filtering in, it used to ping for empty vehicles over and over again.
In one of the plethora of other Skynet threads, a comparison was made to a python artillery calc script that somewhat hooked into the client to take screenshots of the azi/distance from the binos of the spotter and would automatically triangulate the required azi/distance for the artillery.
This is the closest thing I’ve found to Skynet and in my opinion, it is far more useful and far more advantageous. Surprisingly however, Wardens raced to dismiss its usefulness and justify it several different ways. Skynet is a convenient bogeyman for Wardens to blame while they have a break war. Nothing more.
The heatmap counts only the enemies spotted by WT obviously, and if a partisan has arrived in your backlines is because he wasn't spotted, so is more an heatmap of where the partisans appear, not the route they take, and honestly seems something that an average player could figure out alone
In practice is just a map of where partisans were spotted in the last 24 hr
Foxholestats doesn't provide a heatmap of partisans spotted. It only provides current casualty rate per hex, and total casualties since the start of the war per hex.
So, you can say, for example, that 16 partisans were killed in godscrofts since the start of the war, but not how many were spotted and got away. It's a bit different
I am a software developer and there is a world of difference between data intentionally made available for public consumption via the API and data scraped from the game via image recognition.
Yeah, i know how they work, and both of this sites are using this one:
https://github.com/clapfoot/warapi
So they don't have access to intel data, like skynet so comparison is not justified.
I honestly have no idea why you're getting downvoted even though what you are saying regarding the use of Foxhole's API is correct. Perhaps by "ingame intel", they're not referring to team-specific data and instead referring to the (regional) statistics?
I think the usefulness of skynet is blown out of proportion but I don't like the argument of "it's only automating a simple process of watching the map" because imo you could say the same thing about automating scooping from botting (which would be much more problematic then skynet) I just think that skynet can set a dangerous precedent.
There is a massive leap in functionality from automating a notification system to automating inputs into the game. This is fundamentally the difference between cheating for me (except autoclicker as you still have to make the input manually anyway).
If skynet somehow made automated reaction forces or got map info impossible to see in game I would easily categorize it as cheating.
It's actually a shame that skynet isn't being paraded as an example of someone passionate about foxhole making a neat tool.
Oh I agree I think a blanket statement that skynet is the same as botting over exaggerates the impact of skynet and under exaggerates the impact of botting, I was just saying the argument "it's fine because it's automating a simple task" is a slippery slope
I think one big reason that skynet is seen as problematic instead of just a neat tool is it's faction exclusivity, (now obviously the creator has every right to do what he wants with the tool and limit who can use it) but as a CS student I would love to look at this see how it's made and theroize what other cool features could be added, but as a warden all I get to know about it is 2nd hand stories from collies and accusations/theories from wardens.
i think it sets a precedent that automation via 3rd party websites with increasingly impactful and useful concepts could be used and encouraged by both sides, similar to how eve online is.
The precedent is already there, arty calculators have by far a bigger impact on the game than skynet, and both factions try to get the best one to have an advantage
At present yes. People add things to programs to makr them better over time. This is called development and when in the context of an 'arms race' (two factions vying for supremacy) that evolution progresses faster than if in a vacuum.
We get it isnt that amazing at present, its existence sets a precedent for others to improve + create more.
The issue though is that there is no real slippery slope. All of these Wardens are crying about how “oh Skynet will automate our game!” But, like, how? What exactly is the next step here?
Perhaps they could recreate the system and use machine learning to lessen the number of insignificant alarms? Maybe even include the number of infantry and vehicles in the report? That's just me nitpicking since I don't see much opportunity either, but I guess that could still technically count as 1UPing current Skynet.
That's refinement, which I fully concede could be possible with enough work. The common high-road argument though is that the problem isn't Skynet itself, but rather it will set a precedent that will "open the floodgates" to other forms of automation. Then we get some vague handwaving to mostly dissimilar games.
If the devs wanted too they could obfuscate the math of artillery and just integrate an artillery calculator. Might even be better for the game that way honestly.
the thing is, precedent is here already. Some people are new (relatively speaking) but people already had this conversation way back when artillery calculators started to roll out, artillery was way more easy so I'd argue they were more impactful than they are nowadays.
That ship not only has sailed, it managed to go around the globe and come back with exotic spices.
Yes all of that is true.
But it's still an unfair advantage? That is the whole point of the argument which is true. You got a free dude to look at your entire map 24/7 every second and ping every single partisan that is spotted.
To say Wardens can do the same is disingenuous, nobody is going to sit there all day and look at the map every second.
Is it a huge deal? No. Is it game breaking? No. Are Wardens taking it waaaaay out of proportions? Yes.
Is it still unfair? Still yes.
What i mean is that is barely an advantage, let alone an unfair one
In a game where you have 500+ people in your faction able to look at the map at any given moment, you don't really need 1 guy to sit on the map all day to spot enemies, i'm pretty sure 98% of collies rely on the human spotting rather than skynet
Yes, once again, I already said you are correct.
But it is still an advatange. No matter how small. The question was is it an advantage? And the answer is always yes.
If you got 500 Wardens keeping tabs on the map, their reaction speed will still be slower than Skynet. Just by the virtue of Skynet being automated. You cant compete with an automated software lol unless you had like 1 million pop then I guess it truly wouldn't matter by sheer size of numbers.
Me seeing a dot on the map and typing it in intel chat is still faster, alt+tabbing to discord, then sifting through 30 useless skynet pings about a random motorboat in the middle of nowhere then alt+tabbing back in.
If anything, I lost time going to discord and looking at skynet than using my own eyes. Which is what most colonials do anyway. In a game where a huge chunk of the faction doesn’t use sigil and a massive chunk of those who do use sigil not use skynet at all… it begs the question why this is even a massive issue. The alt problem is even bigger than this numerically and by the effect of what they can do. But you guys choose to have this mostly ignored and inefficient program live rent free in your heads
Ok that's great.
Until you don't spot the partisan. Because not every single partisan will be spotted on the map by a real human.
Unlike a machine. That will spot every partisan. 24/7.
If it's so useless then delete it to resolve the issue. But its simultaneously useless and at the same time everyone is hell bent on defending it and letting it to stay to 'trigger wardens'. Nah bro, you just making our community more toxic by keeping it up that's all.
And not only Wardens want it gone. I played most of my wars on Colonials and Im going back next war and I dont like it either. I rather we just remove it and resolve the issue this way rather than have to listen to all the toxicity for ages to come.
And however out of proportions this is which it is, Wardens still have a valid point that this shit is unfair for one side even if its an insignificant advantage, which it is, it still should be removed.
Like its a simple fix, lets just get rid of automated bullshit from this game because it doesn't belong in Foxhole anyway. And yes Im aware its impossible to remove everything like that, but this tool is taking it to the next level unlike the others.
I see no logical difference between skynet being categorized as an unfair advantage vs an advanced spreadsheet logi/building calculator by your logic. A real human isn't going to track things as precisely as a spreadsheet, especially if the spreadsheet is automated. This is problematic logic imo.
The important distinction to make for me is the third party being capable of making inputs to the game. Once you achieve something automated scrapping, aiming, or, driving its problematic.
Ok how are you going to ban a spreadsheet? And spreadsheet can be used by both sides.
Its a simple issue to fix the developer said he will remove it if admins tell him to so just do it and bring the toxicity to its end.
The reality of it being impossible to ban is a problem for people who want to ban it. Skynet can also be used by both sides just as much as a spreadsheet can. Both are required to be made by individual and have no obligations to share.
The solution that is much easier to the issue is just to remove it and end it there instead of having some poor chap spend 200 hours developing a counterpart to Skynet.
My end goal is to have it gone, not to have more of it. Lmao. If Input broadcasting breaks the spirit of the game so does Skynet.
It would take any moderately experienced devs maybe 10 hours to make skynet.... and input broadcasting is fundamentally different than skynet. Skynet literally doesnt interact with the game any more than a spreadsheet does. If you want it gone you should probably have an actual reason to remove it.
A human player is way more effective in determining all the other factors that aren't just the position of the enemy, like dangerousness, speed, intent, possible vehicle they're in etc. etc.
And as i said, human spotting on foxhole is way more effective than skynet, as long as the players look on the map and communicate what they see
The skynet channel is no different from the scouting channel and i swear that more often than not world chat is more trust worthy
The question was does Skynet provide an advatange. The answer is yes, it does provide an advantage.
What else are we discussing here? You get a free dude to look at your map 24/7 even if he is obviously less effective than a normal players its still an automated system that doesnt rest, sleep, it just stares at the map all day.
Its pretty meh and insignificant in the grand scheme of things but people need a scape goat and Skynet is a perfect one.
It does rest and sleep, kinda, because for it to work you need more than 1 person streaming the map, it's like 5 people for full coverage and so it isn't always active and it doesn't cover the whole map all the time
Sure. But its automated. Jesus what the fuck even is the point of asking if you are just going to go full denial mode on everything lool
The question was is it an advatange? Yes it is.
Thats the end of it. Its a tiny advantage, its basically pointless, but it still is an advatange over the side who does not have it. I really just want it gone now so there is no more talk of this bs because its getting annoying now.
Well ok?
But its still an advantage. Sharing ur screen on discord to give arty position is also an advantage trueee, every clan does that though. But Skynet is exclusive.
You can most definitely compete with automated software b/c this particular software is crap at distinguishing between real threats and things like abandoned enemy vehicles. That makes skynet more annoying than helpful. You get so many false alarm pings that you start ignoring them altogether. Better to just read chat tbh. An autoclicker gives a player more of an unfair advantage than skynet.
Then remove it to avoid all the toxicity. If it's not an advantage then release it to both sides. Like jesus, this community is already down bad at least we could have some bi-factional understanding instead of 'COPE WARDENS HAHAHA'. And it's coming from someone who plays collies mostly xDD
Wardens didn't give a fuck before they started losing a war. Most still don't b/c they understand it's not a factor. From what I can tell it is mostly just you posting about this 24/7. Forgive me, but it does seem like cope. Just like collies were prone to exaggerating the impact of the hv40 when their morale was down in the dumps, except this is even less of an issue.
Anyway, I read warden clans already have a similar bot that they decided not to release for general use. I think they should. Even if they didn't, I'd be fine with collies giving them the bot, if only to put an end to this needless cope.
Idk i was playing Wardens recently and nobody said anything of a tool like that so its probably just a made up shit like 99% rumors people say around communities. It was same with the myths of colonial grenade hackers that were throwing 100kms nades. There was only 1 guy like that but Wardens said every time a collie threw grenade he is cheating ......
I doubt a tool like that in multi-clan discord would be kept a secret unless all Warden clanmen are secret keepers IRL lol.
And anyway, I only posted about it because it was brought to my attention. Just delete it its fucking annoying now, its not like Wardens will stop complaining about it they will keep bringing it up till the end of time and they have their point even if its giga useless its still an advantage its still a free dude with a radio that doesnt sleep or drink and is up 24/7.
I only made 1 thread about it. Mostly I just post in threads made by others so blame them not me. You are here posting about Skynet too so dont be a hypocrite and put all the blame on me lmao.
Its a non issue that is an issue now because of the toxicity it creates. Just get rid of it, its not like this shit should be in the Foxhole in the first place. Along with a bunch of other BS (that we cant really ban like discord screen sharing, etc, etc). At least this can be resolved with literally 1 message from the devs.
The biggest issue is not that wardens do not have their own skynet, but the precedent that would be set by the wardens choosing to make their own (which we could do if we really wanted to). If the wardens decided to make their own, then it could potentially turn into a 3rd party program arms race, where each side tries to get a leg up on the other by making programs that progressively automate parts of the game to their max efficiency and eliminate human error. The effects of this can be clearly seen in games like EVE online, where the game is incredibly hostile to new players and you can only really play in the most efficient way unless you want to be heavily outclassed.
It is not a fun experience.
This game relies on having a consistent player base. Automating things with programs makes the game less fun for the other side which drives down players and disincentivizes playing on the side that has automated it since people are no longer required to do it.
It is not healthy for the game.
This has been excessively discussed among the leadership of many warden clans and most have decided that it would be a poor idea to follow in the footsteps of the colonials for these reasons.
Reinforcing what I said above, all it takes to run skynet is to have an account with the map screen open and just run a bot that takes screenshots and feed it directly into skynet. That requires absolutely no player activity whatsoever, which ruins the spirit of the game and completely removes the element of surprise by seeing anything that a human would have missed.
In summary, whoever made skynet was so concerned about if they could, they never stopped to think if they should.
As a side note, to all those people who say it’s ok because only a few people use it, does that mean that alting or multiboxing is ok since only a few people do that? No? Ok, I thought not.
This will not happen because the minute the devs perceive these 3rd party apps as threats to gameplay integrity, they will be banned. That is exactly what happened with input broadcasting.
It's not ok because few people use it, it's ok because is a function that is so inferior to what a human player can do that the vast majority of players don't use it
That’s an awful way of thinking. Just because someone is bad at alting or multiboxing doesn’t make it ok. Plus, it’s software, it can be updated to become more useful and then your whole argument of it being useless goes down the drain.
Skynet is by far not comparable with alting
Imagine having a GPS in game that highlights the road you need to use
It is external to the game? Yes
It is convenient to have? Yes
A human could take better decisions? Yes
Is it tilting the balance of the game? Absolutly no
What if that GPS had constant development that linked it with Skynet and heatmaps, and info about busy roads and queues so it helped you choose the best route based on your thresholds for time, distance, and risk?
Where do you draw the line on what level of benefit is acceptable? This shit is not as far off as you think it is.
I guess i draw the line at what exist rn, i can't give an opinion on what doesn't exist, for now, skynet is barely a commodity, far from being game changer in the slightest
You were drawing a hypothetical and now you don't want to talk hypotheticals. That's cool, but it makes me wonder why you would even pose the question at all.
I have read almost all your comments and they just "try" to prove that a pixel detector on a stream is worse than alts/greifers and should be banned at all cost.
And how the wardens are somehow on the morally higher ground and will never make such a tool, because they are morally superior somehow. Even though there are many notorious cases proving that to not be true.
Also its the same copypasta from yesterday, maybe you got tired of typing a new opinion and just re-using it, so I can't be bothered reading the copy pasted parts, just read the unique ones from today.
The lack of care for wanting a fair game is astonishing. If it’s so useless and not cheating then I don’t understand why all the collies would be so defensive about skynet. You’re literally saying that a tool that only one side has access to is fair.
And no, I can’t be bothered to type out a new response for someone who is so blinded by factionalism that they think a one sided tool is fair.
>You’re literally saying that a tool that only one side has access to is fair.
Literally just make your own, there's got to be at least 1 Warden who knows how to program. Problem solved.
We could do that, but I guarantee that nobody wants this game to go down the 3rd party arms race path that EVE went down. The results of what that did to EVE are self evident (it basically made the game a spreadsheet simulator where you must play the meta and is not fun in the slightest).
But you also agree that the tool is borderline useless.
I feel like this argument has inconsistencies, either you say it's borderline useless but unfair that we have it and the Wardens don't, then say that, this useless program that both sides has would cause some arms race.
I'll be honest and say if there was some way to create effective 3rd party for foxhole the arms race would have already happened. Skynet, the most advanced third party system for foxhole... is borderline useless, being used as more of a salt generator than anything else.
It's very impressive from a technical standpoint but it's been around for a while and I'll be honest only became a big topic because some Warden loyalists needed an excuse for their loss last war (there's no reason to need an excuse for losing wars, you guys fought well last war) as I've literally never heard Wardens complain about it until it was clear they were going to lose last war.
**In summary**, Skynet is an impressive technical feat with almost 0 in game impact, so the idea that third party systems such as Skynet would cause a 3rd party arms race is wrong since this game is completely different from EVE and the impact 3rd party systems can have in game for creating metas is close to 0.
Who hurt you? Why do you feel the need to berate people on the internet just to feel better about yourself?
It’s a game that people should be able to enjoy while playing it. I believe that skynet negatives the importance of having to actually look at the map for threats which makes things like partisaning and scouting for attacks much harder for the other side. It’s a game that I like and I want to be able to enjoy it without having to deal with shit like that.
Sorry that I have a coherent reason for opposing skynet and I’m not some braindead factionalist that can only feel good about myself if I win.
Hey buddy, I just called you out for being lazy, I don't care if you want to continue doing it or rather improve from it.
And I see you love taking it personal. I like to read warden opinions on skynet, but when copypasted opinion spammers keep spamming their copypasta, it just shows how much you care about the game/skynet.
And its funny how wardens will go so far to take it up their backside to prove skynet to be some sort of super unfair superweapon that literally kills warden partisans instantly, when they literally pass through a million watchtowers/OBS bunkers on their way to backline and then get QRFd by a logi guy who used a radio.
I wish we had like more than 2-3 map streamers on for more than 1-2 hours each day. Currently we have like 0 streamers and no one bothers using it, just the warden paranoia is good at making up imaginary skynet threat and blame it as a scapegoat whenever they get QRFd. Collie QRF was strong before already, no one complained/cried before when they got QRFd.
But oh no, suddenly Skynet is made to detect partisans, so lets blame our skill issue on it!!! Wardens now live in constant fear of skynet even if there is 0 streamers/users using it. So much for "Scouting/Partisaning" being harder for wardens, when the main thing we do is watchtower/OBS bunker spam near important borders to detect any funny monkeys.
Now if 1 warden gets QRFd, its all blamed on skynet. So, we started to embrace the skynet blame meme and made it a psyop. So now if a warden partisan is QRFd, he sees the words "Terminated" or "Get skynetted" to induce even more fear, even though there is literally 100s of watchtowers/OBS towers detecting him before he gets intercepted.
So I think this slippery slope argument is quite absurd as well as the comparison to eve. The exact same argument can be used to ban spreadsheets as "automating logistics calculations will lead to more automation" this quite clearly illustrates an absurd reality.
Eve is also a very fundamentally different game as the investment outside of executing actions is massively larger and far more dynamic. You could make the argument that investing in the development of a ship is a order of magnitude more important than your skill in using a ship. The devs are also vocally supportive of espionage/shady dealings. This is not even remotely the case in foxhole.
The factor that actually matters is the ability for third party whatever to make or take inputs (other than explicitly allowed I.e autoclickers/foxholestats) to the game. Multiboxing, any kind of stats hacking, and things like aim hacking all easily fall into the category of cheating because of this factor. Perhaps a spreadsheet that took data otherwise impossible to determine (specific stats, locations of anything outside of Intel range, enemy stockpiles) could fall into cheating as well. Skynet simply does not fall into this category. It takes no inputs from the game that aren't publicly available, it inputs nothing into the game.
If you don't make this distinction I genuinely believe you have to ban things like spreadsheets which is absurd.
Nah it does nothing att all, because anyone could sit and just stare at the map for hours and do the same thing...
Yeah but I rather f\*cking play the game than stare at the map when working backlines, if Skynet takes care of that it makes my job easier.
Jesus where do you get off...
If you have 400 wardens playing you don't need to watch the map all day, theoreyically speaking there's always someone looking at the map, and even skynet can't check the whole map 24/7 because it needs roughly 5 people to stream different areas of the map and few people are gonna leave theyr pc running for a pixel detector
To see the real effect this has on the game we would need to know the amount of wardens getting caught in the backline without an automated system doing it for them.
I'm sure a most wardens would get spotted by players when staying in watchtower range for a longer period of time but the fact that an automated system is making sure any colonial who uses it will be notified 100% of the times when a warden enters wt range for even the slightest amount of time, eh, I don't like it.
It’s not 100% though, it’s still giving off false positives all the time and misses people. Regardless of skynet you are gonna get QRFd when you go partisan, it’s not like it can constantly keep track of you even when you are outside of watchtower range. You might just get QRFd a few seconds quicker, and honestly as a partisan you shouldn’t be hanging around in the same spot waiting for QRF to arrive regardless of skynet
Realistically no two people couldn't do it, but either way the point is the "player" doesn't have to be at their computer to feed the information and that's the problem. Even if it isn't incredibly effective it's still running constantly compared to a player constantly observing a map, and a player can only keep a detailed eye on so much area.
It's an issue when one side has to dedicate players actively playing to compete against something I could leave running while I go to work, and currently skynet may not be the most accurate or efficient tool it's still being supported by the creator is it not? As a pet project it will keep being tweaked and touched up until the creator loses interest and there's no telling how much work he'll put into the program before then.
It's not what skynet is, it's what precedent it creates. People will keep building better versions, until it reaches a point that is far worse than what the current outcry is.
I think a decent way to look at wether or not an external program should be allowed is the question, "can it replace a real player?" Auto clickers and artillery calculators are allowed, but they require someone sitting at their computer to position their character and input numbers. If you leave Foxhole running all night or while you're at work, those programs will stop benefitting your team because they still require periodic inputs.
On the other hand, multi-boxing and bot macros are not allowed. Slaving x accounts together replaces x-1 real players, and we've seen what one person with a horde of accounts can do already. Additionally, you can't develop bots that mine/build/ etc. autonomously, because that would also replace a player. For every account logged in and spawned into the map, there should be a person at their computer playing the game. On this principal, I also disagree with afk-ing at bases for tech, but the state of building is a whole nother discussion.
Skynet breaks this principal. My understanding is that players volunteer their accounts for it, and let Foxhole run while they're sleeping, working, at school, or otherwise not playing the game. Unlike arty calculators or autoclickers, no periodic user input is required. You could buy several alt accounts and run Skynet in all of your backline regions 24/7 and it would function as intended. Even if it's not doing a very good job, it's still doing the job of a player.
Foxhole prides itself on being a game where everything is player made and operated. Bots, in any form, go against this core tenet of the game
Foxhole stats should be banned under this logic. Other than this problem I largely agree with you. I genuinely just find it problematic that something working afk = banable.
To extrapolate, I see no issue with someone making a bot account to automatically *monitor* a stockpile even if it's taking the role of a player checking it.
Foxhole stats operates using a public api so you’re just making a false equivalence.
The major issue with someone making a bot account to automatically monitor a stockpile is that it ruins the integrity of the game. Encouraging automation encourages making and using bot accounts. Bots have no place in player-driven games like foxhole.
It being a public api if anything supports the concept that there are game systems that should be accessible outside of the game. The api is also irrelevant to the idea that automation = bad.
Should logistics calculators be banned because the calculations aren't "player driven"? Does it ruin the "integrity" of the game to use a storm cannon calculator?
Great way to completely ignore what I said about bots :)
I didn’t know that basic info about death numbers and map changes that are available to both sides are “game systems”. You also can’t just say that foxhole stats should be banned using the logic “bot = bad” and then tell me that the fact that it uses a public api and not afk bots is irrelevant to the point I’m trying to make.
Calculators and such are fine. Sometime ago there was a showcase of a tool that let’s you test bunker design layouts and whatnot. While I was disappointed that it was faction locked, in no way did I think it went against the integrity of the game, because in the end it was the live player that was participating and doing the actions. Calculators take the inputs from a live player and give and answer to a math equation. No part of this involves an in-game bot.
Skynet encourages bots because it rewards afking in-game. Why spend my time looking at the map for where needs qrf when I can just run an alt account on my laptop that sits afk and alerts me via Skynet, allowing me to do other things on my PC in the meantime? It is the job of the players to look at the map for partisans and communicate with the rest of the faction about it. Automation takes that responsibility away from the players. It doesn’t matter how little Skynet is currently being used, it’s a matter of principle.
It’s frustrating trying to argue with you because you so frequently go off topic. While your questioning of other websites and programs may be valid, I doubt you genuinely believe them and instead or only using them to spew nonsense whataboutism instead of addressing the issue of automation encouraging the use of bots.
It's not at all whataboutism and I half ignored the "promoting of bots" argument because it's a slippery slope that I don't believe holds much strength.
Foxholestats absolutely shows a good representation of the activity of a front, and the ability to see what was most recently taken / what got tapped (which is impossible unless you specificaly witness the tapping) is very useful. The point of it being public info is irrelevant to the concept that it requires "bots" to read and display that information.
The storm cannon calculator automatically places the storm cannon on the map and displays its range completely independently from player input. But obviously it is incapable of aiming/firing the cannon.
My argument is that bots interacting with the game (Like monitoring a stockpile to update spreadsheets) do not pass the threshold of cheating / will not eliminate any game mechanics *if* they do not have the ability to make inputs to the game. Even if skynet perfectly detected partisans (which it's not even remotely close to) the player must still look at their map, access the threat, and respond accordingly. In your example I think skynet is justified "because in the end it was the live player that was participating and doing the actions".
I 100% agree that if skynet could enact change in the game independent of players it would be cheating, but it can't.
The exact same logic applies to stockpile monitoring. A player still needs to input / output everything in the stockpile independent from monitoring. If I used your argument that it "it is the job of the players to look at numbers" you get into really silly territory of justifying the banning of spreadsheets.
I care a lot about consistency in rule enforcement and this being where you draw the line doesn't work for me. I'm also a slut for information clarity in games and things like the building tool/storm cannon calculator are a very cool example of passionate community engagement that need to be encouraged.
I don't even know what language it's coded on, but it'd take me like an hour and 10 lines of code to get it to only ping for selected regions. "It sucks" is a silly argument.
Chances are an improved version wouldn't be set up in a faction-wide discord anyway, it'd be kept under wraps for some groups.
It sets a bad trend where automating a player task is defended by people as “not that big a deal” and “it works poorly”, like sure maybe it doesn’t work well right now, but it can be improved, and then what is the defense for it once it works perfectly?
If automating intelligence is ok why shouldn’t I make a bot that drives me from one point to another following roads but can’t detect traffic? because functionally “it isn’t that big a deal” and “doesn’t work that well”.
It breaks the rules, it breaks the spirit of the game. If a partisan makes a mistake and enters watchtower coverage for even 1 second skynet will know. A human is not going to watch the map 24/7. Nobody has time for that. Why are collies so desperate to defend a tool that is so obviously cheating?
I think it could be made useless with a few bad spies inserting bad data in to there network. (Get them chasing ghosts around!)
Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Mincemeat
Pretty much this. It’s technologically impressive, but there is no machine learning involved as some people implied, so it literally pings for every blue dot in the back line. Hell, before Kastow put some manual filtering in, it used to ping for empty vehicles over and over again. In one of the plethora of other Skynet threads, a comparison was made to a python artillery calc script that somewhat hooked into the client to take screenshots of the azi/distance from the binos of the spotter and would automatically triangulate the required azi/distance for the artillery. This is the closest thing I’ve found to Skynet and in my opinion, it is far more useful and far more advantageous. Surprisingly however, Wardens raced to dismiss its usefulness and justify it several different ways. Skynet is a convenient bogeyman for Wardens to blame while they have a break war. Nothing more.
No one is blaming skynet for losses. That myth lives in cheating colonial heads.
The constant warden copium induced posts say otherwise.
what about the heatmap feature?
The heatmap counts only the enemies spotted by WT obviously, and if a partisan has arrived in your backlines is because he wasn't spotted, so is more an heatmap of where the partisans appear, not the route they take, and honestly seems something that an average player could figure out alone In practice is just a map of where partisans were spotted in the last 24 hr
Heatmap is basically just the map border where every partisan goes cause you cant build there, i didnt need a bot to tell me that
logiwaze and foxhole stats provide the same feature, in fact foxhole stats is more accurate as it actually gets data straight from the game.
Foxholestats doesn't provide a heatmap of partisans spotted. It only provides current casualty rate per hex, and total casualties since the start of the war per hex. So, you can say, for example, that 16 partisans were killed in godscrofts since the start of the war, but not how many were spotted and got away. It's a bit different
alright btw, why am i getting downvoted? i was just curious about your opinions
I dont know but wasnt me, as an fyi though on reddit asking why youre being downvoted is generally a downvote magnet.
yeah, whenever someone asks why they're being downvoted it takes all my strength not to downvote
Both of these sites have no access to ingame intel. They opeate using API provided by siege camp.
Do you understand how an API works, genuine question, I can explain it to you if you dont.
Public API data is public by design.
I am a software developer and there is a world of difference between data intentionally made available for public consumption via the API and data scraped from the game via image recognition.
Can't really put a getter for faction-specific intel on the API though as that would compromise OpSec, hence the need for data scraping.
Yeah, i know how they work, and both of this sites are using this one: https://github.com/clapfoot/warapi So they don't have access to intel data, like skynet so comparison is not justified.
I honestly have no idea why you're getting downvoted even though what you are saying regarding the use of Foxhole's API is correct. Perhaps by "ingame intel", they're not referring to team-specific data and instead referring to the (regional) statistics?
Foxholestats dont show a heatmap
Foxhole stats *is* a heatmap
I think the usefulness of skynet is blown out of proportion but I don't like the argument of "it's only automating a simple process of watching the map" because imo you could say the same thing about automating scooping from botting (which would be much more problematic then skynet) I just think that skynet can set a dangerous precedent.
There is a massive leap in functionality from automating a notification system to automating inputs into the game. This is fundamentally the difference between cheating for me (except autoclicker as you still have to make the input manually anyway). If skynet somehow made automated reaction forces or got map info impossible to see in game I would easily categorize it as cheating. It's actually a shame that skynet isn't being paraded as an example of someone passionate about foxhole making a neat tool.
Oh I agree I think a blanket statement that skynet is the same as botting over exaggerates the impact of skynet and under exaggerates the impact of botting, I was just saying the argument "it's fine because it's automating a simple task" is a slippery slope I think one big reason that skynet is seen as problematic instead of just a neat tool is it's faction exclusivity, (now obviously the creator has every right to do what he wants with the tool and limit who can use it) but as a CS student I would love to look at this see how it's made and theroize what other cool features could be added, but as a warden all I get to know about it is 2nd hand stories from collies and accusations/theories from wardens.
i think it sets a precedent that automation via 3rd party websites with increasingly impactful and useful concepts could be used and encouraged by both sides, similar to how eve online is.
The precedent is already there, arty calculators have by far a bigger impact on the game than skynet, and both factions try to get the best one to have an advantage
At present yes. People add things to programs to makr them better over time. This is called development and when in the context of an 'arms race' (two factions vying for supremacy) that evolution progresses faster than if in a vacuum. We get it isnt that amazing at present, its existence sets a precedent for others to improve + create more.
The issue though is that there is no real slippery slope. All of these Wardens are crying about how “oh Skynet will automate our game!” But, like, how? What exactly is the next step here?
[удалено]
That’s assuming that they could even 1UP Skynet in the first place lmao
Perhaps they could recreate the system and use machine learning to lessen the number of insignificant alarms? Maybe even include the number of infantry and vehicles in the report? That's just me nitpicking since I don't see much opportunity either, but I guess that could still technically count as 1UPing current Skynet.
That's refinement, which I fully concede could be possible with enough work. The common high-road argument though is that the problem isn't Skynet itself, but rather it will set a precedent that will "open the floodgates" to other forms of automation. Then we get some vague handwaving to mostly dissimilar games.
If the devs wanted too they could obfuscate the math of artillery and just integrate an artillery calculator. Might even be better for the game that way honestly.
the thing is, precedent is here already. Some people are new (relatively speaking) but people already had this conversation way back when artillery calculators started to roll out, artillery was way more easy so I'd argue they were more impactful than they are nowadays. That ship not only has sailed, it managed to go around the globe and come back with exotic spices.
Yes all of that is true. But it's still an unfair advantage? That is the whole point of the argument which is true. You got a free dude to look at your entire map 24/7 every second and ping every single partisan that is spotted. To say Wardens can do the same is disingenuous, nobody is going to sit there all day and look at the map every second. Is it a huge deal? No. Is it game breaking? No. Are Wardens taking it waaaaay out of proportions? Yes. Is it still unfair? Still yes.
What i mean is that is barely an advantage, let alone an unfair one In a game where you have 500+ people in your faction able to look at the map at any given moment, you don't really need 1 guy to sit on the map all day to spot enemies, i'm pretty sure 98% of collies rely on the human spotting rather than skynet
Yes, once again, I already said you are correct. But it is still an advatange. No matter how small. The question was is it an advantage? And the answer is always yes. If you got 500 Wardens keeping tabs on the map, their reaction speed will still be slower than Skynet. Just by the virtue of Skynet being automated. You cant compete with an automated software lol unless you had like 1 million pop then I guess it truly wouldn't matter by sheer size of numbers.
Me seeing a dot on the map and typing it in intel chat is still faster, alt+tabbing to discord, then sifting through 30 useless skynet pings about a random motorboat in the middle of nowhere then alt+tabbing back in. If anything, I lost time going to discord and looking at skynet than using my own eyes. Which is what most colonials do anyway. In a game where a huge chunk of the faction doesn’t use sigil and a massive chunk of those who do use sigil not use skynet at all… it begs the question why this is even a massive issue. The alt problem is even bigger than this numerically and by the effect of what they can do. But you guys choose to have this mostly ignored and inefficient program live rent free in your heads
Ok that's great. Until you don't spot the partisan. Because not every single partisan will be spotted on the map by a real human. Unlike a machine. That will spot every partisan. 24/7. If it's so useless then delete it to resolve the issue. But its simultaneously useless and at the same time everyone is hell bent on defending it and letting it to stay to 'trigger wardens'. Nah bro, you just making our community more toxic by keeping it up that's all. And not only Wardens want it gone. I played most of my wars on Colonials and Im going back next war and I dont like it either. I rather we just remove it and resolve the issue this way rather than have to listen to all the toxicity for ages to come. And however out of proportions this is which it is, Wardens still have a valid point that this shit is unfair for one side even if its an insignificant advantage, which it is, it still should be removed. Like its a simple fix, lets just get rid of automated bullshit from this game because it doesn't belong in Foxhole anyway. And yes Im aware its impossible to remove everything like that, but this tool is taking it to the next level unlike the others.
I see no logical difference between skynet being categorized as an unfair advantage vs an advanced spreadsheet logi/building calculator by your logic. A real human isn't going to track things as precisely as a spreadsheet, especially if the spreadsheet is automated. This is problematic logic imo. The important distinction to make for me is the third party being capable of making inputs to the game. Once you achieve something automated scrapping, aiming, or, driving its problematic.
Ok how are you going to ban a spreadsheet? And spreadsheet can be used by both sides. Its a simple issue to fix the developer said he will remove it if admins tell him to so just do it and bring the toxicity to its end.
The reality of it being impossible to ban is a problem for people who want to ban it. Skynet can also be used by both sides just as much as a spreadsheet can. Both are required to be made by individual and have no obligations to share.
The solution that is much easier to the issue is just to remove it and end it there instead of having some poor chap spend 200 hours developing a counterpart to Skynet. My end goal is to have it gone, not to have more of it. Lmao. If Input broadcasting breaks the spirit of the game so does Skynet.
It would take any moderately experienced devs maybe 10 hours to make skynet.... and input broadcasting is fundamentally different than skynet. Skynet literally doesnt interact with the game any more than a spreadsheet does. If you want it gone you should probably have an actual reason to remove it.
Just have Discord up on your phone or a second screen lol.
A human player is way more effective in determining all the other factors that aren't just the position of the enemy, like dangerousness, speed, intent, possible vehicle they're in etc. etc. And as i said, human spotting on foxhole is way more effective than skynet, as long as the players look on the map and communicate what they see The skynet channel is no different from the scouting channel and i swear that more often than not world chat is more trust worthy
The question was does Skynet provide an advatange. The answer is yes, it does provide an advantage. What else are we discussing here? You get a free dude to look at your map 24/7 even if he is obviously less effective than a normal players its still an automated system that doesnt rest, sleep, it just stares at the map all day. Its pretty meh and insignificant in the grand scheme of things but people need a scape goat and Skynet is a perfect one.
It does rest and sleep, kinda, because for it to work you need more than 1 person streaming the map, it's like 5 people for full coverage and so it isn't always active and it doesn't cover the whole map all the time
Sure. But its automated. Jesus what the fuck even is the point of asking if you are just going to go full denial mode on everything lool The question was is it an advatange? Yes it is. Thats the end of it. Its a tiny advantage, its basically pointless, but it still is an advatange over the side who does not have it. I really just want it gone now so there is no more talk of this bs because its getting annoying now.
No bigger an advantage than sharing you screen on discord tbh
Well ok? But its still an advantage. Sharing ur screen on discord to give arty position is also an advantage trueee, every clan does that though. But Skynet is exclusive.
You can most definitely compete with automated software b/c this particular software is crap at distinguishing between real threats and things like abandoned enemy vehicles. That makes skynet more annoying than helpful. You get so many false alarm pings that you start ignoring them altogether. Better to just read chat tbh. An autoclicker gives a player more of an unfair advantage than skynet.
Then remove it to avoid all the toxicity. If it's not an advantage then release it to both sides. Like jesus, this community is already down bad at least we could have some bi-factional understanding instead of 'COPE WARDENS HAHAHA'. And it's coming from someone who plays collies mostly xDD
Wardens didn't give a fuck before they started losing a war. Most still don't b/c they understand it's not a factor. From what I can tell it is mostly just you posting about this 24/7. Forgive me, but it does seem like cope. Just like collies were prone to exaggerating the impact of the hv40 when their morale was down in the dumps, except this is even less of an issue. Anyway, I read warden clans already have a similar bot that they decided not to release for general use. I think they should. Even if they didn't, I'd be fine with collies giving them the bot, if only to put an end to this needless cope.
Idk i was playing Wardens recently and nobody said anything of a tool like that so its probably just a made up shit like 99% rumors people say around communities. It was same with the myths of colonial grenade hackers that were throwing 100kms nades. There was only 1 guy like that but Wardens said every time a collie threw grenade he is cheating ...... I doubt a tool like that in multi-clan discord would be kept a secret unless all Warden clanmen are secret keepers IRL lol. And anyway, I only posted about it because it was brought to my attention. Just delete it its fucking annoying now, its not like Wardens will stop complaining about it they will keep bringing it up till the end of time and they have their point even if its giga useless its still an advantage its still a free dude with a radio that doesnt sleep or drink and is up 24/7.
It's mostly just you being annoying by whining about it on this sub for days. It's a non-issue.
I only made 1 thread about it. Mostly I just post in threads made by others so blame them not me. You are here posting about Skynet too so dont be a hypocrite and put all the blame on me lmao. Its a non issue that is an issue now because of the toxicity it creates. Just get rid of it, its not like this shit should be in the Foxhole in the first place. Along with a bunch of other BS (that we cant really ban like discord screen sharing, etc, etc). At least this can be resolved with literally 1 message from the devs.
The biggest issue is not that wardens do not have their own skynet, but the precedent that would be set by the wardens choosing to make their own (which we could do if we really wanted to). If the wardens decided to make their own, then it could potentially turn into a 3rd party program arms race, where each side tries to get a leg up on the other by making programs that progressively automate parts of the game to their max efficiency and eliminate human error. The effects of this can be clearly seen in games like EVE online, where the game is incredibly hostile to new players and you can only really play in the most efficient way unless you want to be heavily outclassed. It is not a fun experience. This game relies on having a consistent player base. Automating things with programs makes the game less fun for the other side which drives down players and disincentivizes playing on the side that has automated it since people are no longer required to do it. It is not healthy for the game. This has been excessively discussed among the leadership of many warden clans and most have decided that it would be a poor idea to follow in the footsteps of the colonials for these reasons. Reinforcing what I said above, all it takes to run skynet is to have an account with the map screen open and just run a bot that takes screenshots and feed it directly into skynet. That requires absolutely no player activity whatsoever, which ruins the spirit of the game and completely removes the element of surprise by seeing anything that a human would have missed. In summary, whoever made skynet was so concerned about if they could, they never stopped to think if they should. As a side note, to all those people who say it’s ok because only a few people use it, does that mean that alting or multiboxing is ok since only a few people do that? No? Ok, I thought not.
This will not happen because the minute the devs perceive these 3rd party apps as threats to gameplay integrity, they will be banned. That is exactly what happened with input broadcasting.
It's not ok because few people use it, it's ok because is a function that is so inferior to what a human player can do that the vast majority of players don't use it
That’s an awful way of thinking. Just because someone is bad at alting or multiboxing doesn’t make it ok. Plus, it’s software, it can be updated to become more useful and then your whole argument of it being useless goes down the drain.
Skynet is by far not comparable with alting Imagine having a GPS in game that highlights the road you need to use It is external to the game? Yes It is convenient to have? Yes A human could take better decisions? Yes Is it tilting the balance of the game? Absolutly no
What if that GPS had constant development that linked it with Skynet and heatmaps, and info about busy roads and queues so it helped you choose the best route based on your thresholds for time, distance, and risk? Where do you draw the line on what level of benefit is acceptable? This shit is not as far off as you think it is.
I guess i draw the line at what exist rn, i can't give an opinion on what doesn't exist, for now, skynet is barely a commodity, far from being game changer in the slightest
You were drawing a hypothetical and now you don't want to talk hypotheticals. That's cool, but it makes me wonder why you would even pose the question at all.
Then find a developer and make your own?
Tell me you didn’t read the comment you replied to without telling me
I have read almost all your comments and they just "try" to prove that a pixel detector on a stream is worse than alts/greifers and should be banned at all cost. And how the wardens are somehow on the morally higher ground and will never make such a tool, because they are morally superior somehow. Even though there are many notorious cases proving that to not be true. Also its the same copypasta from yesterday, maybe you got tired of typing a new opinion and just re-using it, so I can't be bothered reading the copy pasted parts, just read the unique ones from today.
The lack of care for wanting a fair game is astonishing. If it’s so useless and not cheating then I don’t understand why all the collies would be so defensive about skynet. You’re literally saying that a tool that only one side has access to is fair. And no, I can’t be bothered to type out a new response for someone who is so blinded by factionalism that they think a one sided tool is fair.
>You’re literally saying that a tool that only one side has access to is fair. Literally just make your own, there's got to be at least 1 Warden who knows how to program. Problem solved.
We could do that, but I guarantee that nobody wants this game to go down the 3rd party arms race path that EVE went down. The results of what that did to EVE are self evident (it basically made the game a spreadsheet simulator where you must play the meta and is not fun in the slightest).
But you also agree that the tool is borderline useless. I feel like this argument has inconsistencies, either you say it's borderline useless but unfair that we have it and the Wardens don't, then say that, this useless program that both sides has would cause some arms race. I'll be honest and say if there was some way to create effective 3rd party for foxhole the arms race would have already happened. Skynet, the most advanced third party system for foxhole... is borderline useless, being used as more of a salt generator than anything else. It's very impressive from a technical standpoint but it's been around for a while and I'll be honest only became a big topic because some Warden loyalists needed an excuse for their loss last war (there's no reason to need an excuse for losing wars, you guys fought well last war) as I've literally never heard Wardens complain about it until it was clear they were going to lose last war. **In summary**, Skynet is an impressive technical feat with almost 0 in game impact, so the idea that third party systems such as Skynet would cause a 3rd party arms race is wrong since this game is completely different from EVE and the impact 3rd party systems can have in game for creating metas is close to 0.
Thats just called being lazy to not type a new response, maybe you lack thinking abilities. Proves how much you really hate skynet lol, zero effort.
Delete Radio for colonials becouse they abuse that.
Who hurt you? Why do you feel the need to berate people on the internet just to feel better about yourself? It’s a game that people should be able to enjoy while playing it. I believe that skynet negatives the importance of having to actually look at the map for threats which makes things like partisaning and scouting for attacks much harder for the other side. It’s a game that I like and I want to be able to enjoy it without having to deal with shit like that. Sorry that I have a coherent reason for opposing skynet and I’m not some braindead factionalist that can only feel good about myself if I win.
Hey buddy, I just called you out for being lazy, I don't care if you want to continue doing it or rather improve from it. And I see you love taking it personal. I like to read warden opinions on skynet, but when copypasted opinion spammers keep spamming their copypasta, it just shows how much you care about the game/skynet. And its funny how wardens will go so far to take it up their backside to prove skynet to be some sort of super unfair superweapon that literally kills warden partisans instantly, when they literally pass through a million watchtowers/OBS bunkers on their way to backline and then get QRFd by a logi guy who used a radio. I wish we had like more than 2-3 map streamers on for more than 1-2 hours each day. Currently we have like 0 streamers and no one bothers using it, just the warden paranoia is good at making up imaginary skynet threat and blame it as a scapegoat whenever they get QRFd. Collie QRF was strong before already, no one complained/cried before when they got QRFd. But oh no, suddenly Skynet is made to detect partisans, so lets blame our skill issue on it!!! Wardens now live in constant fear of skynet even if there is 0 streamers/users using it. So much for "Scouting/Partisaning" being harder for wardens, when the main thing we do is watchtower/OBS bunker spam near important borders to detect any funny monkeys. Now if 1 warden gets QRFd, its all blamed on skynet. So, we started to embrace the skynet blame meme and made it a psyop. So now if a warden partisan is QRFd, he sees the words "Terminated" or "Get skynetted" to induce even more fear, even though there is literally 100s of watchtowers/OBS towers detecting him before he gets intercepted.
So I think this slippery slope argument is quite absurd as well as the comparison to eve. The exact same argument can be used to ban spreadsheets as "automating logistics calculations will lead to more automation" this quite clearly illustrates an absurd reality. Eve is also a very fundamentally different game as the investment outside of executing actions is massively larger and far more dynamic. You could make the argument that investing in the development of a ship is a order of magnitude more important than your skill in using a ship. The devs are also vocally supportive of espionage/shady dealings. This is not even remotely the case in foxhole. The factor that actually matters is the ability for third party whatever to make or take inputs (other than explicitly allowed I.e autoclickers/foxholestats) to the game. Multiboxing, any kind of stats hacking, and things like aim hacking all easily fall into the category of cheating because of this factor. Perhaps a spreadsheet that took data otherwise impossible to determine (specific stats, locations of anything outside of Intel range, enemy stockpiles) could fall into cheating as well. Skynet simply does not fall into this category. It takes no inputs from the game that aren't publicly available, it inputs nothing into the game. If you don't make this distinction I genuinely believe you have to ban things like spreadsheets which is absurd.
Nah it does nothing att all, because anyone could sit and just stare at the map for hours and do the same thing... Yeah but I rather f\*cking play the game than stare at the map when working backlines, if Skynet takes care of that it makes my job easier. Jesus where do you get off...
If you have 400 wardens playing you don't need to watch the map all day, theoreyically speaking there's always someone looking at the map, and even skynet can't check the whole map 24/7 because it needs roughly 5 people to stream different areas of the map and few people are gonna leave theyr pc running for a pixel detector
To see the real effect this has on the game we would need to know the amount of wardens getting caught in the backline without an automated system doing it for them. I'm sure a most wardens would get spotted by players when staying in watchtower range for a longer period of time but the fact that an automated system is making sure any colonial who uses it will be notified 100% of the times when a warden enters wt range for even the slightest amount of time, eh, I don't like it.
It’s not 100% though, it’s still giving off false positives all the time and misses people. Regardless of skynet you are gonna get QRFd when you go partisan, it’s not like it can constantly keep track of you even when you are outside of watchtower range. You might just get QRFd a few seconds quicker, and honestly as a partisan you shouldn’t be hanging around in the same spot waiting for QRF to arrive regardless of skynet
Realistically no two people couldn't do it, but either way the point is the "player" doesn't have to be at their computer to feed the information and that's the problem. Even if it isn't incredibly effective it's still running constantly compared to a player constantly observing a map, and a player can only keep a detailed eye on so much area. It's an issue when one side has to dedicate players actively playing to compete against something I could leave running while I go to work, and currently skynet may not be the most accurate or efficient tool it's still being supported by the creator is it not? As a pet project it will keep being tweaked and touched up until the creator loses interest and there's no telling how much work he'll put into the program before then.
It's not what skynet is, it's what precedent it creates. People will keep building better versions, until it reaches a point that is far worse than what the current outcry is.
Do not exploit bugs, modify the game client, or use external tools to gain an unfair advantage There you go it should be banned.
In that case let’s also Ban discord because that can be used to gain an unfair advantage
I think a decent way to look at wether or not an external program should be allowed is the question, "can it replace a real player?" Auto clickers and artillery calculators are allowed, but they require someone sitting at their computer to position their character and input numbers. If you leave Foxhole running all night or while you're at work, those programs will stop benefitting your team because they still require periodic inputs. On the other hand, multi-boxing and bot macros are not allowed. Slaving x accounts together replaces x-1 real players, and we've seen what one person with a horde of accounts can do already. Additionally, you can't develop bots that mine/build/ etc. autonomously, because that would also replace a player. For every account logged in and spawned into the map, there should be a person at their computer playing the game. On this principal, I also disagree with afk-ing at bases for tech, but the state of building is a whole nother discussion. Skynet breaks this principal. My understanding is that players volunteer their accounts for it, and let Foxhole run while they're sleeping, working, at school, or otherwise not playing the game. Unlike arty calculators or autoclickers, no periodic user input is required. You could buy several alt accounts and run Skynet in all of your backline regions 24/7 and it would function as intended. Even if it's not doing a very good job, it's still doing the job of a player. Foxhole prides itself on being a game where everything is player made and operated. Bots, in any form, go against this core tenet of the game
Foxhole stats should be banned under this logic. Other than this problem I largely agree with you. I genuinely just find it problematic that something working afk = banable. To extrapolate, I see no issue with someone making a bot account to automatically *monitor* a stockpile even if it's taking the role of a player checking it.
Foxhole stats operates using a public api so you’re just making a false equivalence. The major issue with someone making a bot account to automatically monitor a stockpile is that it ruins the integrity of the game. Encouraging automation encourages making and using bot accounts. Bots have no place in player-driven games like foxhole.
It being a public api if anything supports the concept that there are game systems that should be accessible outside of the game. The api is also irrelevant to the idea that automation = bad. Should logistics calculators be banned because the calculations aren't "player driven"? Does it ruin the "integrity" of the game to use a storm cannon calculator?
Great way to completely ignore what I said about bots :) I didn’t know that basic info about death numbers and map changes that are available to both sides are “game systems”. You also can’t just say that foxhole stats should be banned using the logic “bot = bad” and then tell me that the fact that it uses a public api and not afk bots is irrelevant to the point I’m trying to make. Calculators and such are fine. Sometime ago there was a showcase of a tool that let’s you test bunker design layouts and whatnot. While I was disappointed that it was faction locked, in no way did I think it went against the integrity of the game, because in the end it was the live player that was participating and doing the actions. Calculators take the inputs from a live player and give and answer to a math equation. No part of this involves an in-game bot. Skynet encourages bots because it rewards afking in-game. Why spend my time looking at the map for where needs qrf when I can just run an alt account on my laptop that sits afk and alerts me via Skynet, allowing me to do other things on my PC in the meantime? It is the job of the players to look at the map for partisans and communicate with the rest of the faction about it. Automation takes that responsibility away from the players. It doesn’t matter how little Skynet is currently being used, it’s a matter of principle. It’s frustrating trying to argue with you because you so frequently go off topic. While your questioning of other websites and programs may be valid, I doubt you genuinely believe them and instead or only using them to spew nonsense whataboutism instead of addressing the issue of automation encouraging the use of bots.
It's not at all whataboutism and I half ignored the "promoting of bots" argument because it's a slippery slope that I don't believe holds much strength. Foxholestats absolutely shows a good representation of the activity of a front, and the ability to see what was most recently taken / what got tapped (which is impossible unless you specificaly witness the tapping) is very useful. The point of it being public info is irrelevant to the concept that it requires "bots" to read and display that information. The storm cannon calculator automatically places the storm cannon on the map and displays its range completely independently from player input. But obviously it is incapable of aiming/firing the cannon. My argument is that bots interacting with the game (Like monitoring a stockpile to update spreadsheets) do not pass the threshold of cheating / will not eliminate any game mechanics *if* they do not have the ability to make inputs to the game. Even if skynet perfectly detected partisans (which it's not even remotely close to) the player must still look at their map, access the threat, and respond accordingly. In your example I think skynet is justified "because in the end it was the live player that was participating and doing the actions". I 100% agree that if skynet could enact change in the game independent of players it would be cheating, but it can't. The exact same logic applies to stockpile monitoring. A player still needs to input / output everything in the stockpile independent from monitoring. If I used your argument that it "it is the job of the players to look at numbers" you get into really silly territory of justifying the banning of spreadsheets. I care a lot about consistency in rule enforcement and this being where you draw the line doesn't work for me. I'm also a slut for information clarity in games and things like the building tool/storm cannon calculator are a very cool example of passionate community engagement that need to be encouraged.
I don't even know what language it's coded on, but it'd take me like an hour and 10 lines of code to get it to only ping for selected regions. "It sucks" is a silly argument. Chances are an improved version wouldn't be set up in a faction-wide discord anyway, it'd be kept under wraps for some groups.
It sets a bad trend where automating a player task is defended by people as “not that big a deal” and “it works poorly”, like sure maybe it doesn’t work well right now, but it can be improved, and then what is the defense for it once it works perfectly? If automating intelligence is ok why shouldn’t I make a bot that drives me from one point to another following roads but can’t detect traffic? because functionally “it isn’t that big a deal” and “doesn’t work that well”.
It breaks the rules, it breaks the spirit of the game. If a partisan makes a mistake and enters watchtower coverage for even 1 second skynet will know. A human is not going to watch the map 24/7. Nobody has time for that. Why are collies so desperate to defend a tool that is so obviously cheating?
I think it could be made useless with a few bad spies inserting bad data in to there network. (Get them chasing ghosts around!) Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Mincemeat