I didn’t like the way it was set up, but the concept itself is sound. These two characters have a lot more to talk about then catelyn and cersei.
Rhaenyra walks away from this scene knowing for a fact that Viserys didn’t pass her over and that it’s too late to try and resolve things peacefully.
Alicent left knowing she’d misinterpreted Viserys and that Rhaenyra really is the chosen heir, which I think will play into her character in the future as she loses control over her sons.
My only problem is the way this scene plays out, I’m fine with rhaenyra being able to sneak into kings landing if Daemon can do it. But then they just stay out in the open talking for ages with countless other septas around and anyone able to just walk in.
I hope Larys brings this up later because with the amount of spies he has watching Alicent he should definitely know about it.
SPOILER!!!! Don't read otherwise
>!Yea so later in Fire and Blood Rhaanyra captures Kings Landing and holds Alicant basically prisoner (under house arrest).!<
>!We could have had this conversation later without the contrivance.!<
Also would have been much more impactful after the first major battles had been fought and the war is now so much wider than their own families and totally unstoppable.
Yea I agree. It would have been far more tragic.
SPOILERS!!!!! Seriously either be patient or read Fire and Blood. The audio-books on youtube.
>!Its been years since I've read Fire and Blood but If I remember correctly when Rhaenyra takes the capital, little Jaehaerys has been assassinated, Helena has killed herself and Jacaerys drowned during a naval battle.!<
>!Imagine how heartbreaking it would be for both Alicent and Rhaenyra to learn that "oh Viserys was talking about the conqueror prophesy and wanted Raenerys's son Aegon to be heir".!<
>!They really missed a trick.!<
Correct about everything other than Helena, that happens later. But yes exactly my point. Hell if they wanted to give her a bigger role she could be with Alicent when they find out and that’s what drives her over the edge given her losses as well.
Point being, the addition of the prophesy/misunderstanding plot point might have been unnecessary, but it didn’t have to be dreadful. This scene being the pay off? Idk man. Kinda weak.
Apparently when they were writing season 1, the prophesy was actually RR Martins suggestion.
I do think your right about Rhaenyra witnessing what happens.
Prophecy is one of GRRM’s most annoying habits. It dampens characters or dulls the story. For example, Cersei not being motivated by a desire to protect her children because motherhood, but rather because some witch told her she’d die after her kids died. Or Bran seeing a wave crash against Winterfell right before Theon’s betrayal. George and Prophecy are often a bad mix.
She was talking about her grief in the last episode and how she felt she wasn’t really allowed to feel it. Maybe it’s a hint that >!it will become overwhelming and she will feel as if she has no outlet other than death. She was also framed by the light of the window in the last episode!<
meh, alternatively that future scene has even more layers now because they can reflect when they had this very conversation that could have stopped it all and now look where we are.
I'm thinking such a conversation may happen later on, just with >!a reverse from here: Alicent becomes the one pleading for an end, Rhaenyra declaring it to be too late for anything but total annihilation of the other Greens.!<
We can't have men shown ending the war by poisoning Aegon....no no no. We'll make it Alicent, as revenge for Aegon killing Rhaenyra. She looks at Young Aegon and oh he has Rhaenyra's eyes. 😭 Alicent because the Westerosi Severus Snape.
for sure would have been way better and such a more natural scene
tbh tho this "a song of ice and fire dagger Aegon's dream prophecy" stuff is just really dumb tho anyway tho
Also these two used to be best friends and probably both hope somewhere deep down that there is still some way to salvage the situation, however remote. I think Kat and Cercei had mad that one time the king's party was staying at Winterfell for a few days. It's hardly comparable.
I've asked this in other subs. What woman would cling to a friendship where the ex friend; married your dad, demeaned your son's, undermined your position in the family, raised her sons, you're half siblings, to hate and fear you, calls for your son's eye to be gouged out (while you called for hers to be tortured), tried to take you to court to humiliate your son and publicly label him a bastard, stole your birthright, and whose son killed your son with his AK-47 with wings.
Call be unforgiving, but that friendship would be dead and buried and the earth salted and burned around Ep. 8.
Yeah, what woman would cling to a friendship where the ex friend:
1) accused you of choosing to marry her dad when you were obviously a child bride who was forced to marry him (essentially dismissing your truama and victim-blame you)
2) mocked your truama (being forced to have sex and make rape babies) by causally mentioning to your face she'd never want your fate
3) got your dad - your only support system - kicked out for telling the truth
4) shamelessly lied and disrespected her own mother's name in the process, making you unable to trust her again
5) lied shamelessly again about her sons not being obvious bastards (stealing the inheritance of actual legitimate children and making her a hypocrit as she demands to have her "birthright" because it's the law but disregard any other law that don't benefit her)
6) blamed you for fearing for your kids' lives when she married a dangerous lunitac who clearly wanted to target them and you
7) asked for your maimed child to be tortured after he was jumped by four kids for simply claiming a dragon
8) smiled sumgly when her dad - your husband - protected her kid from any accountability for your son's disability
9) mocked you when you had a nervous breakdown after all this trauma
10) did not punish the man who deliberately assassinated your 4 years old grandson
Rhaenyra lies all the time and people pay the price, uses her privilege to escape responsibility and accountability, mocks Alicent when she gets fed up with this bullshit, mocks her truama constantly, put the lives of Alicent's kids in danger and does absolutely nothing to stop the danger.
Alicent is a saint for still caring about Rhaenyra.
> I didn’t like the way it was set up, but the concept itself is sound. These two characters have a lot more to talk about then catelyn and cersei.
Rhaenyra should be taking King's Landing fairly soon though. So they could have just waited till a little later and there will be plenty of oportunity for Allicent and Rhaenyra to have scenes together again.
That conversation would have worked just as well after the fall of King's Landing. And that way there would be no need for the silly scenario of Rhaenyra sneaking in to King's Landing on her own just to talk to Allicent.
By that point, it is too late to have Rhaenyra have that conversation.
Rhaenyra is currently overwhelmed with grief and emotion. A couple of weeks earlier, she genuinely thought the fight between the Greens and the Blacks, which at that point was just a family squabble, was over and she'd be able to inherit her thrown peacefully and unite the Targs, and rule the realm.
Then her dad died, and then she is genuinely concerned that the last thing her dad did was reject her. Then she goes into labor and loses the baby. Then she loses her son. And is now faced with the possibility of more loss, and if her dad really did reject her, all these losses and the future losses are due to what, her own vanity? She can't handle any of this. She's overwhelmed. So she's looking for peace anyways she can, and her trip to King's Landing was a dumb attempt to achieve that and get some closure about her dad.
But once the war kicks off, once real battles happen, there's nothing she can possibly do about the next steps. Peace would no longer be possible, just total annihilation of one side or the other. Now she'll likely be more willing to fight those battles because she knows her dad didn't reject her, but that Allicent and the Greens just stole her thrown and shamed her father’s legacy. So now the deaths are on them not her.
I disagree with the sentence , Catelyn and Cersei didn't have the connection Rhaenyra and Alicent have so comparing is pointless , before the death of jaehaerys alicent did send a letter to rhaenyra to try to appease things too....but on the other hand i'm really bored with Rhaenyra trying again to make peace for the second time , it's over now let's get down to war now how many death can these two woman take to finally hate each other ?
Not only did Catelyn and Cersei not have a close bond, they also openly wanted to kill each other and their families.
Neither Rhaenyra nor Alicent directly plotted to kill the other's kin so it's believable that they both harbor no ill will against each other.
It just feels really out of place because at the point where we've had each side murder a child it doesn't feel like reconciliation is possible or even imaginable.
I don't think it's helped by the fact that the show completely skipped over the Green's reaction to Luke's death.
True they really miss the mark here and truth to be told only Aegon seem affected by jaehaerys death and yet the others greens are saying he is overacting like wtf ? he was still Alicent grandchild yet her and helaena couldn't care less...
The point isn't that it's supposed to be possible or imaginable - the point is that their circumstance they've found themselves in is impossible and unimaginable. Multiple characters expressed how much and how quickly things changed in the wake of Viserys' death. This is Rhaenyra clinging to hope. I don't know why we all want our characters to act like robots behaving in binary where everything lives and dies creatively by how logical something is. Obviously there's a threshold there but acting like its preposterous that Rhaenyra would believe there's some slim, miraculous chance that she could still reason with Alicent is so dumb and boring. It's perfectly believable.
Reason with alicent is one thing but reasoning with king Aegon who just lost his son thank to the blacks is more than hope at this point it is madness.
>we've had each side murder a child it doesn't feel like reconciliation is possible or even imaginable.
This is what people mean when they make the Cersei/Cat comparison, not that they had a similar past history of affection
I seriously don’t understand they’ve written Rhaenyra to be such a clueless emotional creature. She doesn’t come off as smart in any way and is coming off as driven by emotion. I mean cool she doesn’t want to go to war but FFS way way way to late for that
I think they're trying to explain a bit of discrepancy in the book. In F&B at this point, Rhaenyra doesn't do shit. She barely does shit between the death of Luke and the >!death of Jace.!< Then there's Cole's campaign in the Crownlands. Why do the Blacks just sit on their ass allowing Cole to move up to Rook's Rest allowing allied families to fall? We now have a reason in the show: Rhaenyra was kneecaping them. Next episode will be a direct consequence of her actions this episode.
I don't think she's clueless, but she is lead by emotion, and she was kinda proven right. She went to see Alicent because she couldn't believe Alicent wanted war but still caused the throne to be usurped. Alicent revealed her motives weren't dishonest, merely misguided (assuming she really misunderstood/believed the dying Viserys last words).
That doesn't make the whole plot of going to Alicent any less dumb, but I feel like the show did clumsily redeem Rhaenyra, at least somewhat.
It’s not just them being friends, it’s the ludicrousness of Rhynaera being able to sneak into King’s landing so easily during a super high alert time of war.
Rhaenyra had been to King's Landing one time in the past 6-ish years. No one in the city would've recognized her while dressed the way she was and it's insane to argue otherwise.
People like to forget that, in GoT season 2, Tyrion walked around Kings Landing with Bronn, stood in front of a streetside rabble-rouser who was literally shit talking him, and did'nt get reconized.
I walked through NYC for a half and hour with Richard Belzer right in front of me, at the height of Law and Order's popularity, and the only person who reconized him was my mom.
Also, people underestimate how much minor changes effect your look. Like Clark Kent. It's a common joke that glasses is a shitty disguise, but research shows that's actually very effective.
Nobody would expect Rhaenyra to willingly go to King's Landing at all, so they're not looking for her, and they certainly wouldn't be looking for her to be dressed as a septa on some random Thursday afternoon.
This is done really well in the first spider man movie
The guy that robs the wrestling boss that Peter doesn’t stop has one distinctive feature - his dyed blonde hair.
We see him again just a few minutes later - driving a car trying to get away while Spider-Man tries to stop him, before fleeing into an abandoned building. But they put a hat on him. And when that hat gets ripped off and his distinct hair is revealed - the audience and Spider-Man both only recognize him as the robber from earlier in that instant. It’s a moment that completely works in the movie even though we’ve been able to see the dudes face the whole time.
People identify other people first by their most distinctive physical traits. For Rae and the targs that’s always been the silver hair. Cover up her hair and she could walk right past people who know her and they wouldn’t glance twice or think to look a little closer at her face.
She didn’t recognize Criston from the sky 😂 she saw armor glisten as she was scouting and flew down. Then when she was close enough she recognized the distinct Kingsguard armor.
She investigated a glare off of some armor and then saw a black haired man with a white kings guard cloak when she got closer, not a difficult conclusion to jump to.
If a queen (whose main life training is to always be standing out as the center of attention) can make it that easily and armed to Alicent, so can a professional assassin.
And just days after both side successfully got an assassin to each other's bedroom and gards got blamed and put on notice for it
I don't think so
Feodal aristocrat never got anywhere alone. Especially in public when they can be seen. Their social power and influence comes mainly from the retinue following them. Regardless of security and convenience, being seen alone means a huge loss of social standing. TV and movies get that systematically wrong, a bit as a production cost measure a bit because they want the characters to relate more to modern audiences who do not get this.
Also, it was a secret to no one that Alicent attends the Sept. Everyone with eyes knew it. Rhaenyra knew it since childhood she went there with her. Why do the show acts like it is this big secret that only the white worm knows about??
A professional assassin would've had to have been a woman easily disguised as a Septa, which of course would be possible but also incredibly pointless. The endeavor wasn't to kill Alicent but to talk to her. Sending an assassin in accomplishes literally nothing.
Just days after both side got an assassin on the others' ground and guards were put on notice for it...which was answered by Aegon foolishly appointing his own drunken idiot friends to higher positions. The episodes have shown clear as day they are not well fortified or doing well in guarding themselves by appointing trustworthy folk.
Alicent likes to pray alone, something we've already been shown in the show. Whether that is typical of past aristocrats or not, it's something canonically shown to be a trait of preference of hers.
The White Worm knows WHEN Alicent attends the Sept. Rhaenyra hasn't been a part of Alicent's daily life in well over a decade and wouldn't have had knowledge of her regular activity.
You are nitpicking the most easily explained stuff to the point of being pedantic.
Why is so hard to believe people could sneak in? With all the technology today people still cross borders undetected. Not hard to believe she could sneak in at all
This is a medieval society there is no pictures no one knows what anyone famous looks like apart from drawings. People wouldn’t be able to recognise her other than her targ hair which was covered and people don’t question nuns cause everyone is very religious
It's not only about people looking for her.
Security around Alicent should be crazy after what happened to Haelena and Jaehaerys.
How long is a trip from Dragonstone to Kings Landing? Two or three days? She left her own council for a week after getting notes of the green army marching? What was her council/family thinking when she vacated Dragonstone?
People are grasping at straws, if the greens were really that incompetent as the show implies there would be no war. The dance would be over with them getting stabbed on the streets.
The Red Keep is so empty it's not even funny. It became so blatant when Heleana was running through it. Not a single guard. Meanwhile on Dragonstone there seem to be a lot of guards and check points
Things are exactly as they need to be at any given moment based on the needs of the plot. It's a sign of good, thoughtful writing. Security was so lax that Rhaenyra could physically grab and restrain Alicent, because that's what the plot needed. If she was meant to be caught though, a random guard would have recognized her face as she entered the city. Things don't need to make sense, they just have to fulfill the plot's needs within a particular scene.
Googling for references it's around 10 hours with a dragon or ~72 hours with a boat and I doubt there were any "safe parking spots" for Syrax around Kings Landing.
The show implies she arrived by boat on a busy port even though Kings Landing is going through a blockade.
To be fair if daemon did it when the commander of the king guard was here with only a cloak to hide him i think Rhaenyra with the help of mysaria should be able to it too and with a costume of the septa someone you wouldn't dare to question or strip down to verifie what she is hiding especially with criston away and the rest of the king guard being the incompetent Aegon friends.
i do agree it is quite strange but not really in the context of what we see already the greens are a bunch of incompetent morons wich i find rather dissapointing , again cersei in GOT season 7 did know when tyrion did sneak in king landing and did allow for him to talk to jaime.
Brother, what would you have them do? Inspect every single person that enters the capital? Through all gates, all piers in the harbor? For the off-chance that some important individual from the other side will enter the city disguised?
Soldiers and guards are a finite resource you know. At this point, just double the security in the Red Keep, so the royals can at the very least be safe there after B&C.
It’s like forcing Catelyn and Cersei to be friends instead of their dynamic from the books and then after Ned is killed and Jaime is captured, having them meet even though it’s obviously pointless because it’s essentially Rhaenyra going to Alicent and saying “I’m not giving up my crown but want peace so convince your son to give in even though my side had his son killed
Wasn't that the point of this scene? It is Rhaenya realizing that 1) they actually did steal the throne from her and 2) that she will have to go to war to get it back
I know it was the point but honnestly after one death on each side rhaenyra should have know by now war was inevitable , she know criston cole is marching with an army that her allies are in danger , do she really need to know that daddy did choose her until the end ? i don't think so for me we are past that now and i trully believed the writters would think so too.
The war is already here how can she think she can prevent it now ? did she really think alicent can stop the war when Aegon is king and he want revenge for his son ? also for what we know rhaenyra never doubted that they steal the throne from her until she meet alicent so that big revelation change nothing...
True. But prepare for people coming at you with the "but she didn't mean that" and "Aemond tried to kill the other kids and committed treason by saying the b-word" child mutilating apologists.
Why do they only have the 7 kings guard? Can’t they afford like a few hundred other knight and men at arms to stand guard them. Imagine if the president and first family only had 7 secret service members guarding them.
Terrible comparison, two old friends pitted against eachother while still having love for one another or 2 people who met once and there families have always had conflict. Which do you think would meet in secret and try to avoid war?
How she thought peace was possible after her son was savaged then a child head was cut off is beyond me. And I hate how the men are painted as power hungry and rash for stating the obvious that war is inevitable whereas the women are all in denial about it and are presented as clever but come off as stupid.
I mean she’s been shown to be a pretty misguided if not all out shitty mother. Her kids knew nothing but “FEAR RHAENYRA SHELL KILL YOU ALL STAY AWAY FROM THEM”
> How she thought peace was possible after her son was savaged then a child head was cut off is beyond me
It doesn't seem like she thought it through at all to be honest. She had no actual offer besides "lets make peace". She didn't actually present any terms, or offer to make any concecions that would have helped facilitate peace. Its not clear what she even expected this "peace" would look like as she didn't seem to have any kind of actionable plan for how peace would be achieved. Unless she seriously though that Allicent would just reply "well seeing as you asked nicely I'll go tell Aegon to surrender".
Disagree. None of them did to the other what Theon did to Robb intentionally. He personally took his home, killed his men, pretended to kill his brothers. Neither A nor R intentionally and personally did any harm to the others family
Rhaenys having that conversation with Rhaenyra last episode is insanely ironic considering she killed a lot of people with her dragon stunt at Aegon's coronation. She probably has the highest body count outside of probably Daemon, but a lot of his were probably during the stuff in the Stepstones.
I prefer the statement from the books, which is that it is the structures of power that so corrupt people. Rhaenyra conducted herself in line with any male Targaryen monarch, and Alicent was as complicit as any ruler trying to take advantage of a succession crisis.
They’re getting into some real Scooby Doo shit with this one. Starting to have flashbacks of season 5 Dorn… such a shame, because the rest of the episode -outside of the no name council members pushing Rhaenyra to dumb stuff because apparently patriarchy bad- was actually really good. The opening was one of the best openings of any GOT extended universe episode.
Her argument was "think of all the death this war will create." Literally if Alicent turned Rhaenyra in at that moment all the death would hypothetically be spared. It was a ridiculous and unnecessary scene.
Yes. This is soap opera garbage that forces the viewer to suspend reality too far.
The brutal pragmatism of Tywin Lannister is compelling. It reflects reality. Watch his convo w/ Jamie while gutting that stag.
Tywin: “Attacking him (Ned Stark) was stupid. Lannisters don’t act like fools.”
Tywin: “Why is he (Ned) still alive?”
Jamie: “one of our men interfered, speared him through the leg before I could finish him.”
Tywin: “…Why is he still alive?”
Jamie: “It wouldn’t have been clean.”
Tywin: “clean?!”
Yeah, that was so dumb and such lazy writing.
Alicent said that it was “too late” and that war is inevitable. So, if it was truly too late and they’ll have to battle it out, doesn’t she realize that the only way for her to win and for the war to end is by killing Rhaenyra. So, her letting her go defeats the whole purpose of deciding to fight the war since it’s “too late”.
Nah all you need to do is imprison Rhaenyra, Jace can try to fight but under threat they kill his mother?
They could also torture her into a confession that her sons are bastards.
There is a huge difference between a controversial possibly wrong fathered teenager of a non-coronated queen and Rhaenyra's claim. If you think her son has half the claim to the throne then she would I think you are simply wrong. If Rhaenyra is gone the war would largely be averted minus Daemon. Simply put, the loss of Rhaenyra would seriously derail the Blacks from creating a mass conflict and would save many of the lives she is claiming Alicent "should" save by not entering the conflict.
That’s a terrible comparison. I did not mind as much as I thought when I first realized what’s happening. It’s dumb, but the acting and setting were good enough where I was like ok this isn’t as bad, it’s dumb if you start thinking about it but just watching the scene for the acting, I thought it was fine. Listen I’ve stopped comparing stuff to the first four season of GOT cause nothing will top it. It’s not season 7/8 levels of terrible writing, it’s just season 5/6. Where it’s bad but not terrible. You know still have episodes like hardhome, winds of winter and battle to the bastards which are some great tv, but then stupid stuff like Stannis’ 180 to burn his daughter( which I absolutely believe will happen in the books, just not at all as the show made it happen, pretty sure Mel will bring back Jon by accident by burning shireen herself after reading the pink letter thinking she is bringing back Stannis. Just always seemed so GRRM to kill a little girl to bring our hero back). So I think the scene was fine if you have reasonable expectations for the show
This scene would have been much more believable if Rhaenyra officially requested a parlay, her terms being that she would only speak to Alicent on some neutral territory between KL and Dragonstone.
There could have been a quick couple scenes of the Greens arguing about it, but then they counter offer that Alicent goes only if there's no guards and no dragons in the area.
I really do think that makes a lot more sense. And I could sort of see Aegon being convinced into allowing it. We've seen precident for parlay type meetings in the previous series, like with Otto going to Dragonstone to treat with the Blacks before the war was actually in swing.
Alternatively, Larys Strong could have facilitated it, using his agents and hidden plants - a la Littlefinger organising Sansa and Dontos' secret meetings in Storm of Swords.
It's not the worst offending scene in HotD, and it definitely isn't as bad as some of the pure bullshit of late GoT, but it took me out of an otherwise solid episode, and doesn't really make any fucking sense from the PoV of the Blacks. Are they just sitting on their arses for 2-3 days while Rhaenyra fucks off to KL by ship? Aargh.
This is also a problem, but that's more with the dialogue - I didn't hate their actual exchange but we needed some more clear lines from Rhaenyra of what the fuck she actually expected Alicent to do to try and restore peace. As the scene stands it makes Rhaenyra look naive and a bit air-headed, which I'm pretty sure the writers didn't want us to think.
Plus, not having clear goals and outcomes in mind for the conversation makes it all the more stupid for Rhaenyra to take such an insane risk.
HotD S2 so far is frustrating because they pump out these banger episodes that just have one incredibly stupid scene per ep that brings them down from excellent, to excellent but flawed.
I think its the show trying to show how kinda disconnected Rhaenyra is with how little actual authority Alicent has despite being a woman. I say this because a few lines like, "like how you personally ordered a child to die"
Except at that point, I highly doubt TG would allow them to meet uninterrupted. They would plan an ambush, to which Alicent would protest vehemently, but even in the current scene, both she and Rhaenyra realize that she no longer has any power over her sons or the Council. It would realistically end with Rhaenyra dead and the war continuing with Jace and Daemon, but it would be in character for show Alicent to end up warning Rhaenyra last minute and her making a great escape.
That scenario actually sounds pretty dramatic, and would add some more nuance to Alicent. I'd have preferred that kind of scene, I think, than one of these 'wear a cloak and do some cheeky stuff' scenes that the HotD writers are obsessed with
1000 %. So dumb.
Sneaking your queen into enemies territory after you chopped an heirs sons head off before he even knew what the concept of war was?
Her being civil after all the enraged scenes from the previous episodes?
Factor in some human nature here. This ain’t happening in a million years.
I hope this show doesn’t drift too far from reality. I said to my friend that despite all the faults of season 8 in thrones, this one is up there on the most unrealistic.
Completely not true and not comparable. Cersei and Catelyn were not ever friends, Rhaenyra and Alicent were, and they were also almost reconciliated before Alicent decided to usurp the throne
I think this scene had the right idea, but the wrong execution.
It would have been a lot more impactful if Rhaenyra had done it after the incident at Storm's End but before/simultaneous with Blood and Cheese.
Then it would be less implausible as a last ditch attempt to avoid bloodshed, especially if Alicent had been amenable, and then B&C happens.
The problem with having it after B&C is that it seems too little, too late, and it's way too extreme a risk for Rhaenyra to take when the armies are marching and King's Landing is on lockdown.
If it was before B and C, Rhaenyra wouldn't do it - at that point, she was still big mad and demanding Aemond's head. It's B and C that shocks her into realizing how far out of hand things have gotten, but it's also the thing that makes this too late. It only happens because of the timing, but the timing also means that it's never going to work. That's why I almost like it.
HotD reached GoT season 7 level of writing in 2 seasons(it had season 6 writing of GoT in season 1, Cersei blew up the sept without any consequence, Rhaenys broke through the floor during Aegon’s coronation, killing hundreds while sparing the Greens), Rhaenyra is in action and go in and out of Kings Landing without any issues, just like Dany could fly from Dragonstone to beyond the wall in a matter of hours at most and save everyone. Also, Rhaenyra talking to Alicent feels eerily similar to Dany brokering peace with Cersei, only worse
Nah it's not. As much as i didn't like it myself, Rhaenyra and Alicent used to be friends, and were on the verge of mending their relationship before all the shit went down. Without knowing what the letter said we can only assume that by Rhaenyra's words, Alicent seemed willing to speak of peace and likely spoke of having nothing to do with Aemond's actions and condemning it. It's a silly scene but you cannot compare this and Cersei/Cat.
Cersei played a part in killing Jon Arryn, disabling Bran, manipulating Sansa and holding her hostage, and her actions lead to Joffrey executing Ned, Cersei could have given the order herself, Cat wouldn't have known.
Alicent could've ended the war that day. Arrest the bitch queen and force her to bend the knee to Aegon. Hold her hostage so that no Black armies attack. Dance is officially over peacefully. Way to go HOTD writers.
Jace would have been the heir then, wouldn’t he? They would still have Caraxes, Meyles, Moondancer, Vermax, etc. to contend with. Daemon is more likely to try and burn The Red Keep with Rhaenyra in it then bend the knee.
How can you agree? The logic is so off. Cercei and Cat had never said a word to eachother almost, while Alicent and Rhaenyra grew up together. Making the argument that the scenarios are alike just flawed.
I agree the pacing makes it wierd and feel abit rushed, but the meeting is sound i feel. If war is to be avoided, she had to try.
The scene itself was good, but the greater context surrounding it makes it kinda questionable
On the one hand, it’s a great character moment. They’ve been building the relationship and so much has happened, it feels satisfying seeing what they say to each other. Them finding out that Alicent was mistaken but she’s still going to go with it anyways along with Rhanyras reaction was so good. Rhae now knowing for certain that her father stood by her even in his death bed brought closure. We now know for certain there’s no going back, both in their friendship or their war.
On the other hand, Alicent doesn’t have power. Rhaenyra knows this. And The throne was usurped by the council, with the plan laid out months in advance. Alicent may have went along with it, but Otto and the council were 99% of planning and execution. Why does she think talking to Alicent will stop the war?
Also, A dragon ate an heir. Assassins are already being sent in on both sides, with a child being murdered. Houses are declaring for one side or the other. Troop movements are happening and have been spotted by the other side. There was house fued, but there were hundreds dead on a battlefield. The war has fully started. Why are they both pretending it’s not, when civilians, soldiers, and royals have been killed on both sides?
Lastly, Alicent says “what’ll happen if i scream?” Rhaenyra says “they’ll come and kill me but I’ll stab you to death first.” Rhaenyra is gambling her whole faction on the hunch that Alicent won’t just do it anyways. Alicent for Rhaenyra is like trading a rook for the king. It’s worth it. She acted very stupidly this episode and it’s jarring.
They definitely weren’t. But even if they were, they were not stupid enough to waltz into their enemies stronghold in a time of war.
THAT was the issue with the scene.
It almost felt like a fan fic tbh.
The time for this kind of scene would have been before Luke’s death. Certainly not now.
I humbly disagree.
This scene was actually pretty good. I agree that the writers are more biased towards the Blacks. But this scene showed that she was trying to broker peace for the sake of preventing more bloodshed, loss of a family members and innocent lives to war.
She's also showing that she's got bigger balls than Daemon by entering into King's Landing with a single knight in broad daylight.
This scene was the high point for me in the episode and the BG score was impeccable.
You all can bash Ryan Condal for this(those who have read the books may even have rights to) but we can't say that this wasn't absolute drama.
Losing my patience with her passiveness honestly. They overplayed this whole “maybe war can be avoided” thing. Adult rhaenyra is frustratingly stupid and illogical. I miss Milly
It just came across as really goofy to me. We just watched a cartoonish plan last episode that was ridiculed and this one was just as stupid if not more so and is played completely straight.
It's just not something GRRM would put into a story. It's a dumb/risky decision, by a character who should know better, that has no consequences, and doesn't advance the plot.
Honestly, except for the green dream, what actually happened in this episode that advanced the plot? I know we need a "calm before the storm" episode, but boo.
Such a dumb risk that’s just the product of poor writing.
Imagine if Alicent decided to rat out Rhaenyra. Daemon in Harrenhal hearing that Rhaenyra was found dead in Fleabottom dressed as a Septa would’ve been a funny scene.
I like the IDEA of them talking like this and Alicent essentially telling her that it's too late, but that both of them understand that it COULD have been avoided. But the execution was just dumb.
It's absolutely absurd how easy it is for enemies to sneak into both cities unnoticed. It reminds me of that South Park where the kids keep sneaking into the CIA, and after the third time, someone lampshades it saying "how is it so easy for children to sneak into the CIA?"
Idk I think this sub is showing they are right to assume the fans don’t have much intelligence.
I’m absolutely baffled by the state of media literacy in the sub. I agree this was prob the worst episode of the show since like maybe s1 ep 6 or ep 9 I wasn’t the biggest fan of those for different reasons in each which makes this ep a little disappointing coming off how great episode 2 was.
But like the things people here complain about are crazy. Like “why wouldn’t Alicent just have rhae killed” excuse me have you employed a moment of critical thinking here. “Why is Helena not sad enough” what? Disassociation and distancing yourself from your trauma is very common and very real. “How did Baela spot the greens” she didn’t her dragon did and alerted her to it then she disobeyed orders by flying in closer because she is young and impulsive.
Why is it so insane for Alicent to turn her in? This would literally accomplish the vast majority of the Green's goals and avert a large scale war with literally the loss of one woman.
>! Rhae dies in the book it does not stop the war !< Yh it’s further along by that point but there’s no reason it should be any different at this point the war is already all but guaranteed now
“Media literacy?” Is this Wall Street Journal we’re talking about here? lol
Considering killing or arresting Rhainyra would literally solve all her problems, I’m interested how “critical thinking” would lead you to any other conclusion?
At the risk of asking what you said not to, why do you think Alicent wouldn't or shouldn't have Rhaenyra killed (or taken imprisoned to be actually realistic)? She just realized her cause for Aegon to be king was wrong, a misunderstanding, and now there's a war brewing for this reason that seems futile to her. After realizing this though, Alicent still persisted that Aegon would be king because it's too late to avoid war. So, it does make sense for her to immediately call the guards after coming out of the sept to imprison Rhaenyra and prevent this war.
This whole episodes was basically filler, nothing happened and it was all about them decided what they were gonna do. It was honestly a bit painful to watch. I’m ready for some conflict and plot development.
> Catelyn Stark meets Cersei
First it was Stannis meeting Cersei, not it's Catelyn meeting her.
Why are people so insisent on making a forced comparison between Rhaenrya and Alicent and competely seperate characters with completely different pathologies, relationships and history?
No it's not. Neither one of these women is personally a malicious sociopath, for one. They have an entire history as "sisters", for two. I don't need any more actually.
One of the big things about this series was women being at the center of the war.
And yet, the women seem to be trying to avoid a war to the point they're acting in contradiction to their character and motivations.
They're supposed to be the ones pushing to war, yet they're whitewashed to the point of totally lacking agency. It's been an issue since the first season but it has only gotten worse.
It was definitely odd. I think it’s a situation where these two actors have really good chemistry and the writers wanted them to have at least one scene together this season since in the books they don’t meet face to face again for a long time.
I just hope they refrain from any more of the major Blacks sneaking into King's Landing. They definitely will send some forces to spy, but I hope we don't also have a scene of Jace sneaking in to rage at Aemond, or Baela going to taunt Aegon or anything like that.
These two used to be best friends and probably both hope somewhere deep down that there is still some way to salvage the situation, however remote. I think Kat and Cercei had mad that one time the king's party was staying at Winterfell for a few days. It's hardly comparable.
What was the plan for rhaenyra here, best case she gets to talk to alicent and nothing else happens, worst case she gets caught and killed. Aegon and criston now rule there is no ending the war with peace, and rhaenyra shouldnt want that anyways
Honestly with the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if more characters thought "dead" don't die like they did, given Laenor, Blood and Cheese, hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Rhaenyra lives *somehow*.
Ahh yes, remember how Cat and Cersei were best friends growing up and the last time they saw each other was a heartfelt exchange at a family dinner. Those were good times.
I mean Cersei and Catlin didn't grow up together and have not family in common so not quite.
I didn't have that much issue with the scene other than it seeming absurdly easy to get next to the queen dowager.
Is it just me or do they really try to push that alicent and rhaenyra were never power hungry in the first place?
In the books their motives were clear while here they just keep stumbling upon their choices and the men around them are the only ones that keep pushing for war.
Not really a fair comparison, but I will agree that right up until this scene I was kind of taken out of immersion by how incredibly stupid this plan was. Almost as dumb as “Daenerys forgot about the fleet”
I don't think that's a very good comparison lol. I liked the scene itself, i didn't like how we got to it and it wasn't a smart move on Rhaenyra's part. I would say in general i wish HOTD was more filled with guards, servants, civilians (especially when it comes to King's Landing), it feels a bit empty sometimes. I didn't have that feeling in GOT (maybe except for season 7 and 8)
Somebody commented on this EXACT post and said another comparison could be Robb wanting to speak with Theon after burning Winterfell. Granted he did in a way want that but he was fully going to kill him afterwords.
Very much hated it. The book chapters on Dance aren’t long. This show shouldn’t fill in too much of their own shit tho. Just like the original, it gets “off” when you make up your own plot. Come on. Just do what was written, short and sweet and it’s non stop banger episodes.
I didn’t like the way it was set up, but the concept itself is sound. These two characters have a lot more to talk about then catelyn and cersei. Rhaenyra walks away from this scene knowing for a fact that Viserys didn’t pass her over and that it’s too late to try and resolve things peacefully. Alicent left knowing she’d misinterpreted Viserys and that Rhaenyra really is the chosen heir, which I think will play into her character in the future as she loses control over her sons. My only problem is the way this scene plays out, I’m fine with rhaenyra being able to sneak into kings landing if Daemon can do it. But then they just stay out in the open talking for ages with countless other septas around and anyone able to just walk in. I hope Larys brings this up later because with the amount of spies he has watching Alicent he should definitely know about it.
SPOILER!!!! Don't read otherwise >!Yea so later in Fire and Blood Rhaanyra captures Kings Landing and holds Alicant basically prisoner (under house arrest).!< >!We could have had this conversation later without the contrivance.!<
Also would have been much more impactful after the first major battles had been fought and the war is now so much wider than their own families and totally unstoppable.
Yea I agree. It would have been far more tragic. SPOILERS!!!!! Seriously either be patient or read Fire and Blood. The audio-books on youtube. >!Its been years since I've read Fire and Blood but If I remember correctly when Rhaenyra takes the capital, little Jaehaerys has been assassinated, Helena has killed herself and Jacaerys drowned during a naval battle.!< >!Imagine how heartbreaking it would be for both Alicent and Rhaenyra to learn that "oh Viserys was talking about the conqueror prophesy and wanted Raenerys's son Aegon to be heir".!< >!They really missed a trick.!<
Correct about everything other than Helena, that happens later. But yes exactly my point. Hell if they wanted to give her a bigger role she could be with Alicent when they find out and that’s what drives her over the edge given her losses as well. Point being, the addition of the prophesy/misunderstanding plot point might have been unnecessary, but it didn’t have to be dreadful. This scene being the pay off? Idk man. Kinda weak.
Apparently when they were writing season 1, the prophesy was actually RR Martins suggestion. I do think your right about Rhaenyra witnessing what happens.
Prophecy is one of GRRM’s most annoying habits. It dampens characters or dulls the story. For example, Cersei not being motivated by a desire to protect her children because motherhood, but rather because some witch told her she’d die after her kids died. Or Bran seeing a wave crash against Winterfell right before Theon’s betrayal. George and Prophecy are often a bad mix.
I wonder how they're going to handle Helena, she doesn't exactly seem suicidal
She actually seemed more suicidal here. Like she's accepting that she's going to die.
She was talking about her grief in the last episode and how she felt she wasn’t really allowed to feel it. Maybe it’s a hint that >!it will become overwhelming and she will feel as if she has no outlet other than death. She was also framed by the light of the window in the last episode!<
I think there will be some Larys involvement in her death.
Between this and Blood and Cheese, this season’s theme has been “kinda weak.”
meh, alternatively that future scene has even more layers now because they can reflect when they had this very conversation that could have stopped it all and now look where we are.
Ooooh I like this!
Let's see how the season resolves before judgment. It could be for a payoff we don't see yet.
Hopefully. I'm not upset and am enjoying the show, just think they might have pulled the trigger too soon.
Please don't ever use spoiler tags again in this sub.
I'm thinking such a conversation may happen later on, just with >!a reverse from here: Alicent becomes the one pleading for an end, Rhaenyra declaring it to be too late for anything but total annihilation of the other Greens.!<
Take out the spaces ! < bro you just made the spoilers bigger lmao
This sub used to be spoilers be dawned! Bunch of pple in this thread bending a knee! Lol
We do not kneel.
I love spoilers and don't mind but the dude wanted to censor it so I helped him. Currently losing my mind over the newest "leaks" from 4chan haha
provide the leaks🙂
I sent you a message but there is a whole post on freefolk and the greens sub
Sorry man thanks. :)
Makes me wonder if they're planning to change the ending...
We can't have men shown ending the war by poisoning Aegon....no no no. We'll make it Alicent, as revenge for Aegon killing Rhaenyra. She looks at Young Aegon and oh he has Rhaenyra's eyes. 😭 Alicent because the Westerosi Severus Snape.
Or maybe... Rhaenyra wins lololol
for sure would have been way better and such a more natural scene tbh tho this "a song of ice and fire dagger Aegon's dream prophecy" stuff is just really dumb tho anyway tho
Also these two used to be best friends and probably both hope somewhere deep down that there is still some way to salvage the situation, however remote. I think Kat and Cercei had mad that one time the king's party was staying at Winterfell for a few days. It's hardly comparable.
I've asked this in other subs. What woman would cling to a friendship where the ex friend; married your dad, demeaned your son's, undermined your position in the family, raised her sons, you're half siblings, to hate and fear you, calls for your son's eye to be gouged out (while you called for hers to be tortured), tried to take you to court to humiliate your son and publicly label him a bastard, stole your birthright, and whose son killed your son with his AK-47 with wings. Call be unforgiving, but that friendship would be dead and buried and the earth salted and burned around Ep. 8.
Yeah, what woman would cling to a friendship where the ex friend: 1) accused you of choosing to marry her dad when you were obviously a child bride who was forced to marry him (essentially dismissing your truama and victim-blame you) 2) mocked your truama (being forced to have sex and make rape babies) by causally mentioning to your face she'd never want your fate 3) got your dad - your only support system - kicked out for telling the truth 4) shamelessly lied and disrespected her own mother's name in the process, making you unable to trust her again 5) lied shamelessly again about her sons not being obvious bastards (stealing the inheritance of actual legitimate children and making her a hypocrit as she demands to have her "birthright" because it's the law but disregard any other law that don't benefit her) 6) blamed you for fearing for your kids' lives when she married a dangerous lunitac who clearly wanted to target them and you 7) asked for your maimed child to be tortured after he was jumped by four kids for simply claiming a dragon 8) smiled sumgly when her dad - your husband - protected her kid from any accountability for your son's disability 9) mocked you when you had a nervous breakdown after all this trauma 10) did not punish the man who deliberately assassinated your 4 years old grandson Rhaenyra lies all the time and people pay the price, uses her privilege to escape responsibility and accountability, mocks Alicent when she gets fed up with this bullshit, mocks her truama constantly, put the lives of Alicent's kids in danger and does absolutely nothing to stop the danger. Alicent is a saint for still caring about Rhaenyra.
> I didn’t like the way it was set up, but the concept itself is sound. These two characters have a lot more to talk about then catelyn and cersei. Rhaenyra should be taking King's Landing fairly soon though. So they could have just waited till a little later and there will be plenty of oportunity for Allicent and Rhaenyra to have scenes together again. That conversation would have worked just as well after the fall of King's Landing. And that way there would be no need for the silly scenario of Rhaenyra sneaking in to King's Landing on her own just to talk to Allicent.
By that point, it is too late to have Rhaenyra have that conversation. Rhaenyra is currently overwhelmed with grief and emotion. A couple of weeks earlier, she genuinely thought the fight between the Greens and the Blacks, which at that point was just a family squabble, was over and she'd be able to inherit her thrown peacefully and unite the Targs, and rule the realm. Then her dad died, and then she is genuinely concerned that the last thing her dad did was reject her. Then she goes into labor and loses the baby. Then she loses her son. And is now faced with the possibility of more loss, and if her dad really did reject her, all these losses and the future losses are due to what, her own vanity? She can't handle any of this. She's overwhelmed. So she's looking for peace anyways she can, and her trip to King's Landing was a dumb attempt to achieve that and get some closure about her dad. But once the war kicks off, once real battles happen, there's nothing she can possibly do about the next steps. Peace would no longer be possible, just total annihilation of one side or the other. Now she'll likely be more willing to fight those battles because she knows her dad didn't reject her, but that Allicent and the Greens just stole her thrown and shamed her father’s legacy. So now the deaths are on them not her.
I disagree with the sentence , Catelyn and Cersei didn't have the connection Rhaenyra and Alicent have so comparing is pointless , before the death of jaehaerys alicent did send a letter to rhaenyra to try to appease things too....but on the other hand i'm really bored with Rhaenyra trying again to make peace for the second time , it's over now let's get down to war now how many death can these two woman take to finally hate each other ?
Not only did Catelyn and Cersei not have a close bond, they also openly wanted to kill each other and their families. Neither Rhaenyra nor Alicent directly plotted to kill the other's kin so it's believable that they both harbor no ill will against each other.
It just feels really out of place because at the point where we've had each side murder a child it doesn't feel like reconciliation is possible or even imaginable. I don't think it's helped by the fact that the show completely skipped over the Green's reaction to Luke's death.
True they really miss the mark here and truth to be told only Aegon seem affected by jaehaerys death and yet the others greens are saying he is overacting like wtf ? he was still Alicent grandchild yet her and helaena couldn't care less...
The point isn't that it's supposed to be possible or imaginable - the point is that their circumstance they've found themselves in is impossible and unimaginable. Multiple characters expressed how much and how quickly things changed in the wake of Viserys' death. This is Rhaenyra clinging to hope. I don't know why we all want our characters to act like robots behaving in binary where everything lives and dies creatively by how logical something is. Obviously there's a threshold there but acting like its preposterous that Rhaenyra would believe there's some slim, miraculous chance that she could still reason with Alicent is so dumb and boring. It's perfectly believable.
Reason with alicent is one thing but reasoning with king Aegon who just lost his son thank to the blacks is more than hope at this point it is madness.
>we've had each side murder a child it doesn't feel like reconciliation is possible or even imaginable. This is what people mean when they make the Cersei/Cat comparison, not that they had a similar past history of affection
Yes get on with it before I piss myself!
I seriously don’t understand they’ve written Rhaenyra to be such a clueless emotional creature. She doesn’t come off as smart in any way and is coming off as driven by emotion. I mean cool she doesn’t want to go to war but FFS way way way to late for that
They wanted her to be a “good” protagonist. But the conflict is inherently and explicitly not good vs evil. That’s what made it interesting.
I think they're trying to explain a bit of discrepancy in the book. In F&B at this point, Rhaenyra doesn't do shit. She barely does shit between the death of Luke and the >!death of Jace.!< Then there's Cole's campaign in the Crownlands. Why do the Blacks just sit on their ass allowing Cole to move up to Rook's Rest allowing allied families to fall? We now have a reason in the show: Rhaenyra was kneecaping them. Next episode will be a direct consequence of her actions this episode.
I don't think she's clueless, but she is lead by emotion, and she was kinda proven right. She went to see Alicent because she couldn't believe Alicent wanted war but still caused the throne to be usurped. Alicent revealed her motives weren't dishonest, merely misguided (assuming she really misunderstood/believed the dying Viserys last words). That doesn't make the whole plot of going to Alicent any less dumb, but I feel like the show did clumsily redeem Rhaenyra, at least somewhat.
It’s not just them being friends, it’s the ludicrousness of Rhynaera being able to sneak into King’s landing so easily during a super high alert time of war.
Rhaenyra had been to King's Landing one time in the past 6-ish years. No one in the city would've recognized her while dressed the way she was and it's insane to argue otherwise.
People like to forget that, in GoT season 2, Tyrion walked around Kings Landing with Bronn, stood in front of a streetside rabble-rouser who was literally shit talking him, and did'nt get reconized. I walked through NYC for a half and hour with Richard Belzer right in front of me, at the height of Law and Order's popularity, and the only person who reconized him was my mom.
Also, people underestimate how much minor changes effect your look. Like Clark Kent. It's a common joke that glasses is a shitty disguise, but research shows that's actually very effective. Nobody would expect Rhaenyra to willingly go to King's Landing at all, so they're not looking for her, and they certainly wouldn't be looking for her to be dressed as a septa on some random Thursday afternoon.
This is done really well in the first spider man movie The guy that robs the wrestling boss that Peter doesn’t stop has one distinctive feature - his dyed blonde hair. We see him again just a few minutes later - driving a car trying to get away while Spider-Man tries to stop him, before fleeing into an abandoned building. But they put a hat on him. And when that hat gets ripped off and his distinct hair is revealed - the audience and Spider-Man both only recognize him as the robber from earlier in that instant. It’s a moment that completely works in the movie even though we’ve been able to see the dudes face the whole time. People identify other people first by their most distinctive physical traits. For Rae and the targs that’s always been the silver hair. Cover up her hair and she could walk right past people who know her and they wouldn’t glance twice or think to look a little closer at her face.
Ya but Baela can recognize Criston who she hasn't seen in around the same time from 100 yards away.🤦🏿♂️
She didn’t recognize Criston from the sky 😂 she saw armor glisten as she was scouting and flew down. Then when she was close enough she recognized the distinct Kingsguard armor.
She investigated a glare off of some armor and then saw a black haired man with a white kings guard cloak when she got closer, not a difficult conclusion to jump to.
He was wearing his Kingsguard armor in a field though, that’s gonna be much easier to spot than a disguise in a crowded city
#**ON AN OPEN FIELD NED!**
She has met him before several times throughout her life, it was much closer than 100 yards
If a queen (whose main life training is to always be standing out as the center of attention) can make it that easily and armed to Alicent, so can a professional assassin. And just days after both side successfully got an assassin to each other's bedroom and gards got blamed and put on notice for it I don't think so Feodal aristocrat never got anywhere alone. Especially in public when they can be seen. Their social power and influence comes mainly from the retinue following them. Regardless of security and convenience, being seen alone means a huge loss of social standing. TV and movies get that systematically wrong, a bit as a production cost measure a bit because they want the characters to relate more to modern audiences who do not get this. Also, it was a secret to no one that Alicent attends the Sept. Everyone with eyes knew it. Rhaenyra knew it since childhood she went there with her. Why do the show acts like it is this big secret that only the white worm knows about??
A professional assassin would've had to have been a woman easily disguised as a Septa, which of course would be possible but also incredibly pointless. The endeavor wasn't to kill Alicent but to talk to her. Sending an assassin in accomplishes literally nothing. Just days after both side got an assassin on the others' ground and guards were put on notice for it...which was answered by Aegon foolishly appointing his own drunken idiot friends to higher positions. The episodes have shown clear as day they are not well fortified or doing well in guarding themselves by appointing trustworthy folk. Alicent likes to pray alone, something we've already been shown in the show. Whether that is typical of past aristocrats or not, it's something canonically shown to be a trait of preference of hers. The White Worm knows WHEN Alicent attends the Sept. Rhaenyra hasn't been a part of Alicent's daily life in well over a decade and wouldn't have had knowledge of her regular activity. You are nitpicking the most easily explained stuff to the point of being pedantic.
It feels like people do this with every show these days.
Why is so hard to believe people could sneak in? With all the technology today people still cross borders undetected. Not hard to believe she could sneak in at all
Who would be looking for her? It’s beyond ridiculous to think that she would just be strolling through Kings Landing.
This is a medieval society there is no pictures no one knows what anyone famous looks like apart from drawings. People wouldn’t be able to recognise her other than her targ hair which was covered and people don’t question nuns cause everyone is very religious
It's not only about people looking for her. Security around Alicent should be crazy after what happened to Haelena and Jaehaerys. How long is a trip from Dragonstone to Kings Landing? Two or three days? She left her own council for a week after getting notes of the green army marching? What was her council/family thinking when she vacated Dragonstone?
Don’t forget, the King’s Guard is not as it used to be with Aegon’s new replacements.
She still would have a guard made of men at arms. Sentries and patrols around her...
People are grasping at straws, if the greens were really that incompetent as the show implies there would be no war. The dance would be over with them getting stabbed on the streets.
The Red Keep is so empty it's not even funny. It became so blatant when Heleana was running through it. Not a single guard. Meanwhile on Dragonstone there seem to be a lot of guards and check points
Things are exactly as they need to be at any given moment based on the needs of the plot. It's a sign of good, thoughtful writing. Security was so lax that Rhaenyra could physically grab and restrain Alicent, because that's what the plot needed. If she was meant to be caught though, a random guard would have recognized her face as she entered the city. Things don't need to make sense, they just have to fulfill the plot's needs within a particular scene.
Its like an hour dragon ride
Googling for references it's around 10 hours with a dragon or ~72 hours with a boat and I doubt there were any "safe parking spots" for Syrax around Kings Landing. The show implies she arrived by boat on a busy port even though Kings Landing is going through a blockade.
What is the source you googled? Because that seems like a massive overestimation, looking at the map.
Mysaria said to use the fishing boats like Daemon, so not as quick as dragonback. If she brought her dragon, it's not much of a secret mission
To be fair if daemon did it when the commander of the king guard was here with only a cloak to hide him i think Rhaenyra with the help of mysaria should be able to it too and with a costume of the septa someone you wouldn't dare to question or strip down to verifie what she is hiding especially with criston away and the rest of the king guard being the incompetent Aegon friends. i do agree it is quite strange but not really in the context of what we see already the greens are a bunch of incompetent morons wich i find rather dissapointing , again cersei in GOT season 7 did know when tyrion did sneak in king landing and did allow for him to talk to jaime.
Brother, what would you have them do? Inspect every single person that enters the capital? Through all gates, all piers in the harbor? For the off-chance that some important individual from the other side will enter the city disguised? Soldiers and guards are a finite resource you know. At this point, just double the security in the Red Keep, so the royals can at the very least be safe there after B&C.
They wouldn’t be guarding the Sept, essentially a church like the red keep
Right, Rhaenyra and Alicent are childhood friends and known each other for what, close to 30 years? They have so much to talk about.
Boo
It’s like forcing Catelyn and Cersei to be friends instead of their dynamic from the books and then after Ned is killed and Jaime is captured, having them meet even though it’s obviously pointless because it’s essentially Rhaenyra going to Alicent and saying “I’m not giving up my crown but want peace so convince your son to give in even though my side had his son killed
Wasn't that the point of this scene? It is Rhaenya realizing that 1) they actually did steal the throne from her and 2) that she will have to go to war to get it back
I know it was the point but honnestly after one death on each side rhaenyra should have know by now war was inevitable , she know criston cole is marching with an army that her allies are in danger , do she really need to know that daddy did choose her until the end ? i don't think so for me we are past that now and i trully believed the writters would think so too. The war is already here how can she think she can prevent it now ? did she really think alicent can stop the war when Aegon is king and he want revenge for his son ? also for what we know rhaenyra never doubted that they steal the throne from her until she meet alicent so that big revelation change nothing...
For me I think of the lords and ladies that Otto killed in season one to kill Rhaenyra's support in the capital and crown lands
Rhaenyra asked for Aemond to be tortured, any love they still had for one another should have died there.
True. But prepare for people coming at you with the "but she didn't mean that" and "Aemond tried to kill the other kids and committed treason by saying the b-word" child mutilating apologists.
At this point they should just kill aegon since it's so incredibly easy to get into kings landing.
THIS, the baby Prince was murdered in his bed, no extra security
rather than dragons fighting each other, why don't they just start to assassinate each other?
To be fair, he had security, he was just otherwise occupied at the time
Why do they only have the 7 kings guard? Can’t they afford like a few hundred other knight and men at arms to stand guard them. Imagine if the president and first family only had 7 secret service members guarding them.
Terrible comparison, two old friends pitted against eachother while still having love for one another or 2 people who met once and there families have always had conflict. Which do you think would meet in secret and try to avoid war?
I agree. A better and much more fitting example in Season 7 Tyrion and Cersei meeting... Or the Tyrion and Jaime meeting....
How she thought peace was possible after her son was savaged then a child head was cut off is beyond me. And I hate how the men are painted as power hungry and rash for stating the obvious that war is inevitable whereas the women are all in denial about it and are presented as clever but come off as stupid.
It also makes Alicent come off as unbelievably monstrous to her own family. She literally cares more for Rhae Rhae than her own beheaded grandson.
I mean she’s been shown to be a pretty misguided if not all out shitty mother. Her kids knew nothing but “FEAR RHAENYRA SHELL KILL YOU ALL STAY AWAY FROM THEM”
> How she thought peace was possible after her son was savaged then a child head was cut off is beyond me It doesn't seem like she thought it through at all to be honest. She had no actual offer besides "lets make peace". She didn't actually present any terms, or offer to make any concecions that would have helped facilitate peace. Its not clear what she even expected this "peace" would look like as she didn't seem to have any kind of actionable plan for how peace would be achieved. Unless she seriously though that Allicent would just reply "well seeing as you asked nicely I'll go tell Aegon to surrender".
More like Theon and Robb after Ironborn took winterfell.
Disagree. None of them did to the other what Theon did to Robb intentionally. He personally took his home, killed his men, pretended to kill his brothers. Neither A nor R intentionally and personally did any harm to the others family
They really need to stop with the whole 'Its all the fault of men' stuff. Yes, there is a gender statement made but its not as heavy handed
Rhaenys having that conversation with Rhaenyra last episode is insanely ironic considering she killed a lot of people with her dragon stunt at Aegon's coronation. She probably has the highest body count outside of probably Daemon, but a lot of his were probably during the stuff in the Stepstones.
Considering how blatantly incompetent alicent rhaenyra and rhaenys have been I don't think the shows trying to say that men are the only problem
I prefer the statement from the books, which is that it is the structures of power that so corrupt people. Rhaenyra conducted herself in line with any male Targaryen monarch, and Alicent was as complicit as any ruler trying to take advantage of a succession crisis.
They were just trying to set up that a woman actually started this war because of her ignorance and thirst for power
They’re getting into some real Scooby Doo shit with this one. Starting to have flashbacks of season 5 Dorn… such a shame, because the rest of the episode -outside of the no name council members pushing Rhaenyra to dumb stuff because apparently patriarchy bad- was actually really good. The opening was one of the best openings of any GOT extended universe episode.
Were Cersei and Cat life long friends who sent ravens to each-other?
Her argument was "think of all the death this war will create." Literally if Alicent turned Rhaenyra in at that moment all the death would hypothetically be spared. It was a ridiculous and unnecessary scene.
Yes. This is soap opera garbage that forces the viewer to suspend reality too far. The brutal pragmatism of Tywin Lannister is compelling. It reflects reality. Watch his convo w/ Jamie while gutting that stag. Tywin: “Attacking him (Ned Stark) was stupid. Lannisters don’t act like fools.” Tywin: “Why is he (Ned) still alive?” Jamie: “one of our men interfered, speared him through the leg before I could finish him.” Tywin: “…Why is he still alive?” Jamie: “It wouldn’t have been clean.” Tywin: “clean?!”
Yeah, that was so dumb and such lazy writing. Alicent said that it was “too late” and that war is inevitable. So, if it was truly too late and they’ll have to battle it out, doesn’t she realize that the only way for her to win and for the war to end is by killing Rhaenyra. So, her letting her go defeats the whole purpose of deciding to fight the war since it’s “too late”.
I totally agree
No they wouldn't, she still has a son who would have a claim to the Thron and Dameon wouldn't just go, "okay let's stop fighting"
Nah all you need to do is imprison Rhaenyra, Jace can try to fight but under threat they kill his mother? They could also torture her into a confession that her sons are bastards.
Except Alicent doesn't get to make that call - Aegon does. And we know Aegon wants to kill her.
There is a huge difference between a controversial possibly wrong fathered teenager of a non-coronated queen and Rhaenyra's claim. If you think her son has half the claim to the throne then she would I think you are simply wrong. If Rhaenyra is gone the war would largely be averted minus Daemon. Simply put, the loss of Rhaenyra would seriously derail the Blacks from creating a mass conflict and would save many of the lives she is claiming Alicent "should" save by not entering the conflict.
The houses supporting Rhaenyra accept Jace as her heir. And even if they would doubt Jaces claim she still has son's from Dameon.
Taking syrax away turns it from an even to slightly black leaning matchup to a green landslide.
That’s a terrible comparison. I did not mind as much as I thought when I first realized what’s happening. It’s dumb, but the acting and setting were good enough where I was like ok this isn’t as bad, it’s dumb if you start thinking about it but just watching the scene for the acting, I thought it was fine. Listen I’ve stopped comparing stuff to the first four season of GOT cause nothing will top it. It’s not season 7/8 levels of terrible writing, it’s just season 5/6. Where it’s bad but not terrible. You know still have episodes like hardhome, winds of winter and battle to the bastards which are some great tv, but then stupid stuff like Stannis’ 180 to burn his daughter( which I absolutely believe will happen in the books, just not at all as the show made it happen, pretty sure Mel will bring back Jon by accident by burning shireen herself after reading the pink letter thinking she is bringing back Stannis. Just always seemed so GRRM to kill a little girl to bring our hero back). So I think the scene was fine if you have reasonable expectations for the show
This scene would have been much more believable if Rhaenyra officially requested a parlay, her terms being that she would only speak to Alicent on some neutral territory between KL and Dragonstone. There could have been a quick couple scenes of the Greens arguing about it, but then they counter offer that Alicent goes only if there's no guards and no dragons in the area. I really do think that makes a lot more sense. And I could sort of see Aegon being convinced into allowing it. We've seen precident for parlay type meetings in the previous series, like with Otto going to Dragonstone to treat with the Blacks before the war was actually in swing. Alternatively, Larys Strong could have facilitated it, using his agents and hidden plants - a la Littlefinger organising Sansa and Dontos' secret meetings in Storm of Swords. It's not the worst offending scene in HotD, and it definitely isn't as bad as some of the pure bullshit of late GoT, but it took me out of an otherwise solid episode, and doesn't really make any fucking sense from the PoV of the Blacks. Are they just sitting on their arses for 2-3 days while Rhaenyra fucks off to KL by ship? Aargh.
But what did Rhaenyra expect Alicent to do? Alicent is not a queen regnant like Rhaenyra, she can't order her sons around.
This is also a problem, but that's more with the dialogue - I didn't hate their actual exchange but we needed some more clear lines from Rhaenyra of what the fuck she actually expected Alicent to do to try and restore peace. As the scene stands it makes Rhaenyra look naive and a bit air-headed, which I'm pretty sure the writers didn't want us to think. Plus, not having clear goals and outcomes in mind for the conversation makes it all the more stupid for Rhaenyra to take such an insane risk. HotD S2 so far is frustrating because they pump out these banger episodes that just have one incredibly stupid scene per ep that brings them down from excellent, to excellent but flawed.
I think its the show trying to show how kinda disconnected Rhaenyra is with how little actual authority Alicent has despite being a woman. I say this because a few lines like, "like how you personally ordered a child to die"
Except at that point, I highly doubt TG would allow them to meet uninterrupted. They would plan an ambush, to which Alicent would protest vehemently, but even in the current scene, both she and Rhaenyra realize that she no longer has any power over her sons or the Council. It would realistically end with Rhaenyra dead and the war continuing with Jace and Daemon, but it would be in character for show Alicent to end up warning Rhaenyra last minute and her making a great escape.
That scenario actually sounds pretty dramatic, and would add some more nuance to Alicent. I'd have preferred that kind of scene, I think, than one of these 'wear a cloak and do some cheeky stuff' scenes that the HotD writers are obsessed with
We went from jet packs to invisibility cloaks
they could have had a renly's peach moment showing how fargone the conflict had become but nooo
Because a woman with lilac eyes and silver heir would totally go unnoticed, oh nvm she doesn't have that here
1000 %. So dumb. Sneaking your queen into enemies territory after you chopped an heirs sons head off before he even knew what the concept of war was? Her being civil after all the enraged scenes from the previous episodes? Factor in some human nature here. This ain’t happening in a million years. I hope this show doesn’t drift too far from reality. I said to my friend that despite all the faults of season 8 in thrones, this one is up there on the most unrealistic.
Completely not true and not comparable. Cersei and Catelyn were not ever friends, Rhaenyra and Alicent were, and they were also almost reconciliated before Alicent decided to usurp the throne
The scene was strange fs but this comparison is dumb
I think this scene had the right idea, but the wrong execution. It would have been a lot more impactful if Rhaenyra had done it after the incident at Storm's End but before/simultaneous with Blood and Cheese. Then it would be less implausible as a last ditch attempt to avoid bloodshed, especially if Alicent had been amenable, and then B&C happens. The problem with having it after B&C is that it seems too little, too late, and it's way too extreme a risk for Rhaenyra to take when the armies are marching and King's Landing is on lockdown.
If it was before B and C, Rhaenyra wouldn't do it - at that point, she was still big mad and demanding Aemond's head. It's B and C that shocks her into realizing how far out of hand things have gotten, but it's also the thing that makes this too late. It only happens because of the timing, but the timing also means that it's never going to work. That's why I almost like it.
Seeing how many defend this sh!t scene, People deserve mediocrity and senseless stuff
HotD reached GoT season 7 level of writing in 2 seasons(it had season 6 writing of GoT in season 1, Cersei blew up the sept without any consequence, Rhaenys broke through the floor during Aegon’s coronation, killing hundreds while sparing the Greens), Rhaenyra is in action and go in and out of Kings Landing without any issues, just like Dany could fly from Dragonstone to beyond the wall in a matter of hours at most and save everyone. Also, Rhaenyra talking to Alicent feels eerily similar to Dany brokering peace with Cersei, only worse
Nah it's not. As much as i didn't like it myself, Rhaenyra and Alicent used to be friends, and were on the verge of mending their relationship before all the shit went down. Without knowing what the letter said we can only assume that by Rhaenyra's words, Alicent seemed willing to speak of peace and likely spoke of having nothing to do with Aemond's actions and condemning it. It's a silly scene but you cannot compare this and Cersei/Cat. Cersei played a part in killing Jon Arryn, disabling Bran, manipulating Sansa and holding her hostage, and her actions lead to Joffrey executing Ned, Cersei could have given the order herself, Cat wouldn't have known.
Alicent could've ended the war that day. Arrest the bitch queen and force her to bend the knee to Aegon. Hold her hostage so that no Black armies attack. Dance is officially over peacefully. Way to go HOTD writers.
Jace would have been the heir then, wouldn’t he? They would still have Caraxes, Meyles, Moondancer, Vermax, etc. to contend with. Daemon is more likely to try and burn The Red Keep with Rhaenyra in it then bend the knee.
Disagree only because Cat and Cersei didn’t grow up together… and also weren’t step mom and step daughter.
How can you agree? The logic is so off. Cercei and Cat had never said a word to eachother almost, while Alicent and Rhaenyra grew up together. Making the argument that the scenarios are alike just flawed. I agree the pacing makes it wierd and feel abit rushed, but the meeting is sound i feel. If war is to be avoided, she had to try.
Media literacy is dead and buried 💀
The scene itself was good, but the greater context surrounding it makes it kinda questionable On the one hand, it’s a great character moment. They’ve been building the relationship and so much has happened, it feels satisfying seeing what they say to each other. Them finding out that Alicent was mistaken but she’s still going to go with it anyways along with Rhanyras reaction was so good. Rhae now knowing for certain that her father stood by her even in his death bed brought closure. We now know for certain there’s no going back, both in their friendship or their war. On the other hand, Alicent doesn’t have power. Rhaenyra knows this. And The throne was usurped by the council, with the plan laid out months in advance. Alicent may have went along with it, but Otto and the council were 99% of planning and execution. Why does she think talking to Alicent will stop the war? Also, A dragon ate an heir. Assassins are already being sent in on both sides, with a child being murdered. Houses are declaring for one side or the other. Troop movements are happening and have been spotted by the other side. There was house fued, but there were hundreds dead on a battlefield. The war has fully started. Why are they both pretending it’s not, when civilians, soldiers, and royals have been killed on both sides? Lastly, Alicent says “what’ll happen if i scream?” Rhaenyra says “they’ll come and kill me but I’ll stab you to death first.” Rhaenyra is gambling her whole faction on the hunch that Alicent won’t just do it anyways. Alicent for Rhaenyra is like trading a rook for the king. It’s worth it. She acted very stupidly this episode and it’s jarring.
I missed how argumentative this sub is Y’all are super crotchety but it’s funny and I missed reading your opinions!
Catelyn and Cersei aren't childhood friends🤡
They definitely weren’t. But even if they were, they were not stupid enough to waltz into their enemies stronghold in a time of war. THAT was the issue with the scene. It almost felt like a fan fic tbh. The time for this kind of scene would have been before Luke’s death. Certainly not now.
I humbly disagree. This scene was actually pretty good. I agree that the writers are more biased towards the Blacks. But this scene showed that she was trying to broker peace for the sake of preventing more bloodshed, loss of a family members and innocent lives to war. She's also showing that she's got bigger balls than Daemon by entering into King's Landing with a single knight in broad daylight. This scene was the high point for me in the episode and the BG score was impeccable. You all can bash Ryan Condal for this(those who have read the books may even have rights to) but we can't say that this wasn't absolute drama.
Losing my patience with her passiveness honestly. They overplayed this whole “maybe war can be avoided” thing. Adult rhaenyra is frustratingly stupid and illogical. I miss Milly
Plot armor. D&D style
This and Rhaenys crashing aegons coronation makes zero sense
It just came across as really goofy to me. We just watched a cartoonish plan last episode that was ridiculed and this one was just as stupid if not more so and is played completely straight.
It's just not something GRRM would put into a story. It's a dumb/risky decision, by a character who should know better, that has no consequences, and doesn't advance the plot. Honestly, except for the green dream, what actually happened in this episode that advanced the plot? I know we need a "calm before the storm" episode, but boo.
Such a dumb risk that’s just the product of poor writing. Imagine if Alicent decided to rat out Rhaenyra. Daemon in Harrenhal hearing that Rhaenyra was found dead in Fleabottom dressed as a Septa would’ve been a funny scene.
I like the IDEA of them talking like this and Alicent essentially telling her that it's too late, but that both of them understand that it COULD have been avoided. But the execution was just dumb. It's absolutely absurd how easy it is for enemies to sneak into both cities unnoticed. It reminds me of that South Park where the kids keep sneaking into the CIA, and after the third time, someone lampshades it saying "how is it so easy for children to sneak into the CIA?"
Nepo baby writers room.
It’s quite literally not like that at all, terrible caption.
It was the worst scene of the series. It made the show look like a CW melodrama. It shows utter disdain for the intelligence of the fans.
Idk I think this sub is showing they are right to assume the fans don’t have much intelligence. I’m absolutely baffled by the state of media literacy in the sub. I agree this was prob the worst episode of the show since like maybe s1 ep 6 or ep 9 I wasn’t the biggest fan of those for different reasons in each which makes this ep a little disappointing coming off how great episode 2 was. But like the things people here complain about are crazy. Like “why wouldn’t Alicent just have rhae killed” excuse me have you employed a moment of critical thinking here. “Why is Helena not sad enough” what? Disassociation and distancing yourself from your trauma is very common and very real. “How did Baela spot the greens” she didn’t her dragon did and alerted her to it then she disobeyed orders by flying in closer because she is young and impulsive.
Why is it so insane for Alicent to turn her in? This would literally accomplish the vast majority of the Green's goals and avert a large scale war with literally the loss of one woman.
>! Rhae dies in the book it does not stop the war !< Yh it’s further along by that point but there’s no reason it should be any different at this point the war is already all but guaranteed now
“Media literacy?” Is this Wall Street Journal we’re talking about here? lol Considering killing or arresting Rhainyra would literally solve all her problems, I’m interested how “critical thinking” would lead you to any other conclusion?
At the risk of asking what you said not to, why do you think Alicent wouldn't or shouldn't have Rhaenyra killed (or taken imprisoned to be actually realistic)? She just realized her cause for Aegon to be king was wrong, a misunderstanding, and now there's a war brewing for this reason that seems futile to her. After realizing this though, Alicent still persisted that Aegon would be king because it's too late to avoid war. So, it does make sense for her to immediately call the guards after coming out of the sept to imprison Rhaenyra and prevent this war.
Totally agree. That scene felt out of place.
so true 😤
This whole episodes was basically filler, nothing happened and it was all about them decided what they were gonna do. It was honestly a bit painful to watch. I’m ready for some conflict and plot development.
House is in it's telenovela era
> Catelyn Stark meets Cersei First it was Stannis meeting Cersei, not it's Catelyn meeting her. Why are people so insisent on making a forced comparison between Rhaenrya and Alicent and competely seperate characters with completely different pathologies, relationships and history?
"I'm sorry Cat, Joffrey said 'Bring me Ned' and Ilyn just couldn't really understand him over the crowd. This is all just a silly mistake!"
Eh… I get it from a dramatic standpoint. Definitely on the edge of “this is dumb, hopefully they don’t get too ‘creative,’” for me.
nope this scene is like jon meeting ramsay before battle
No it's not. Neither one of these women is personally a malicious sociopath, for one. They have an entire history as "sisters", for two. I don't need any more actually.
Budget. This is cheap to film and kills time. Dragons and war are expensive.
The difference is they used to be friends and neither really wants what's been thrust on them by others.
One of the big things about this series was women being at the center of the war. And yet, the women seem to be trying to avoid a war to the point they're acting in contradiction to their character and motivations. They're supposed to be the ones pushing to war, yet they're whitewashed to the point of totally lacking agency. It's been an issue since the first season but it has only gotten worse.
Ah, yes, Cersei and Cat, long time friends/basically sisters. ?? /s
It was definitely odd. I think it’s a situation where these two actors have really good chemistry and the writers wanted them to have at least one scene together this season since in the books they don’t meet face to face again for a long time.
Remember when Ned and Cersei held hands under the weirwood when they were growing up?
Is George R.R. Martin involved in the second season like he was in the first?
If this was Cersei she would not have stopped and started and whispered. She would have had the entire Sept cleared with one shout.
Rhaenyra: I have been moved. I realize now the power of friendship can surmount all obstacles! X'DDDDDD
I don’t think either of them believe the other had anything to do with their son/grandson’s death.
Why can’t they work it out on the remix?
I just hope they refrain from any more of the major Blacks sneaking into King's Landing. They definitely will send some forces to spy, but I hope we don't also have a scene of Jace sneaking in to rage at Aemond, or Baela going to taunt Aegon or anything like that.
These two used to be best friends and probably both hope somewhere deep down that there is still some way to salvage the situation, however remote. I think Kat and Cercei had mad that one time the king's party was staying at Winterfell for a few days. It's hardly comparable.
Absolutely disagree. They both haaaated each other already - these two were incredibly close and I kinda think they are in love
I misread this and was like what does Caitlin Clark have to do with Ned from Spider man
It’s not entirely the same, but this scene is still stupid as fuck.
What was the plan for rhaenyra here, best case she gets to talk to alicent and nothing else happens, worst case she gets caught and killed. Aegon and criston now rule there is no ending the war with peace, and rhaenyra shouldnt want that anyways
Honestly with the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if more characters thought "dead" don't die like they did, given Laenor, Blood and Cheese, hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Rhaenyra lives *somehow*.
Hu how does it compare in the slightest. These 2 have a complete different history than cersei and catelyn.
Ahh yes, remember how Cat and Cersei were best friends growing up and the last time they saw each other was a heartfelt exchange at a family dinner. Those were good times.
The whole episode was fucking terrible
I mean Cersei and Catlin didn't grow up together and have not family in common so not quite. I didn't have that much issue with the scene other than it seeming absurdly easy to get next to the queen dowager.
Is it just me or do they really try to push that alicent and rhaenyra were never power hungry in the first place? In the books their motives were clear while here they just keep stumbling upon their choices and the men around them are the only ones that keep pushing for war.
Not really a fair comparison, but I will agree that right up until this scene I was kind of taken out of immersion by how incredibly stupid this plan was. Almost as dumb as “Daenerys forgot about the fleet”
I don't think that's a very good comparison lol. I liked the scene itself, i didn't like how we got to it and it wasn't a smart move on Rhaenyra's part. I would say in general i wish HOTD was more filled with guards, servants, civilians (especially when it comes to King's Landing), it feels a bit empty sometimes. I didn't have that feeling in GOT (maybe except for season 7 and 8)
I tolerate it because it’s somewhat plausible.
Somebody commented on this EXACT post and said another comparison could be Robb wanting to speak with Theon after burning Winterfell. Granted he did in a way want that but he was fully going to kill him afterwords.
Very much hated it. The book chapters on Dance aren’t long. This show shouldn’t fill in too much of their own shit tho. Just like the original, it gets “off” when you make up your own plot. Come on. Just do what was written, short and sweet and it’s non stop banger episodes.
0 need for the Faceless Men apparently. I get why they wanted this scene, but it's stupid.
Catelyn would’ve offed Cersei immediately lol
Neds death wasn't an accident though.
It’s nothing like Catelyn Stark meeting Cersei. Those two were not friends their whole life