I can’t believe they’re turning on the antibot now, too. It feels very “there are no valid critiques of this community, anyone with any criticism at all is a cult member and allowing them access to your squishy brain meats will result in them devouring you whole”
The lack of critical thinking about this whole situation has highlighted a lot of the worst parts of leftist spaces, too. I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. There’s a notion that if you SPEAK to a person who disagrees with you on something political, you MUST be endorsing every thing they have ever said or done. If your friends support Israel or Trump, you have to drop them like a hot potato and defame them where they work, etc. How the fuck are we supposed to do anything to better our world if we aren’t allowed to talk to people who disagree with us?
The way people are expecting Bethy to be 100% deconstructed and suddenly understand trans people is just ludicrous. Same with Dav. They might get there someday and ya know what’s gonna make that process go a lot faster? Becoming friends with new people LIKE SAM AND TANNER.
It’s! Not! Rocket! Science!
You’re so right! and this polarization and impulse toward shunning on the left only makes it easier for the right to recruit. The general critical attitude about the ZOTS collab is so detached from reality and it really soured my view on the main sub. I feel doubtful that anything any current snark subject does in the future as far as deconstruction, changing views, etc could ever change some of these peoples’ perspectives.
Without getting too far into detail, I have a friend that I'm grey-rocking at this point because she's bought into the "Genocide Joe" propaganda where people are encouraging fellow liberals to not vote for Biden, thus ensuring that Trump wins. At the time, I was so confused and honestly Genocide Joe sounds like a Republican phrase like "Sleepy Joe". But now I realize it's the most obvious foreign interference on the left--if you can't get enough new Trump voters, just make the left not vote so Trump wins.
I said something along the lines of still supporting her even though she's a Trump supporter. She devolved into a rant about how dare I call her a Trump supporter, but I'm like...if you don't vote for Biden then Trump will win, see the 2016 election and Hillary for how that works out. And people were calling liberal non-voters Trump supporters, how is this any different? I'm not going to discriminate, but I might judge if you complain about Trump being president.
I feel like it’s hard to find the line between critiquing and realizing Joe Biden is a bad president who really doesn’t deserve a second term and also that voting for him is strategic to keep someone somehow even more bad out of office. Even if Biden or Trump died (theoretical due to age), the vice president under Biden would be FAR better.
That being said, there are solutions out there and they usually result in grassroots organizing. Like the bigger issue is the 2 party system, gerrymandering, voter suppression, and lack of motivation that things change but not voting for Joe Biden won’t solve that, it’ll just mean you didn’t vote for Joe Biden.
That being said, it’s the same thing with snarking on fundies. What could point out problems and move people to change legal structures, forms of abuse, and popular religious dogma has instead turned into bullying the weird looking kid. Why are we targeting women with kids in evangelical structures when those women and children are the weakest and most vulnerable members of that society? Why aren’t they snarking on Mark Driscoll and Jerry Falwell Jr and the other key players that keep this bullshit alive and politically influence it? Some yee-haw family reading the Bible every night and wearing camo is less of an issue than someone who wields power over others to create abusive power structures that mobilize regular people to do wild things. They don’t even look at the focal point of what causes this anymore, just yapping about the symptoms. Idk.
> Why aren’t they snarking on Mark Driscoll and Jerry Falwell Jr and the other key players that keep this bullshit alive and politically influence it?
Because they're not women with an Instagram account. Bethel Church/Charismatic Pentecostals/New Apostolic Reformation has overtaken most Republicans' religious affiliation in our government and that denomination believes the government must be conquered to summon Jesus (Seven Mountains Mandate). When Trump was meeting with Christian leaders, they weren't historically conservative denominations Reformed Presbyterians or LCMS. They were all part of the New Apostolic Reformation.
I scared myself witless by reading about the New Apostolic Reformation & Project 25 on the same day. While we tend to be a bit more liberal politically here in the UK than the US, trends also have a habit of filtering over the pond in some form or another & the mere thought terrifies me. I can only imagine what it feels like to watch it happening in your own country.
There is already a “Christians in Parliament” group and the evangelical alliance in the UK has pages and pages of ways to write parliament about this, that, and the other thing to try and make things more Christian 🫤
I think a good way of looking at is is you an both advocate/work for ultimately changing the system as a whole to be better, but also recognize the reality that you have to be able to work with the system as is in the present in the mean time....if that makes sense?
If you’re interested in talking to your friend about it more, there’s a video of AOC and Mehdi Hasan talking about this where AOC basically says (barring actual Palestinian Americans whose families have been killed) the question of if you’ll vote for Biden in the general is about what conditions you want to be organizing under in the next four years. I personally voted uncommitted in the primary because I believe people should feel free to vote their conscience in a primary, but I think the best way to approach the general is not posing the issue as “you either have to vote for or critique Biden, it can’t be both.” We’ve been taught that voting is this moral responsibility even moreso than just a “civic duty,” because people “fought for us to be able to vote.” So it seems unbelievably heinous and confusing to feel like you’re casting this moral indicator for something or someone you feel has acted completely immorally — but framing voting more for what it is, which is just a strategic game basically (at least under this electoral system) I think could be effective. Like, yeah, he’s Genocide Joe — but we as a coalition and a country will be less able to fight back against the mistakes he’s made if there are people like Trump in power who will further oppress us economically, from a human rights and bodily autonomy standpoint as well, and make it harder for us to live — which also makes it harder for us to have the energy & resources we need to organize and fight for the coming four years.
Empathy is key too, ya know? Like I think those who can’t genuinely feel and understand the frustration people have with Biden over this issue are too disconnected from it to really help. It could also help to just be like, Hey, I know exactly how you feel and I feel the same way. I’m just choosing to make a different choice in the general because I know that the people Trump would hurt if elected are people we need in order to create a world one day where the U.S. doesn’t have the role that it does right now with Israel. Or with war in general. And the pain of Americans who can’t get the abortion they need or can’t afford housing wouldn’t erase or take the place of those suffering in Gaza; it would only add to the worldwide suffering and set us back even further.
And if none of this is wanted or helpful I’m sorry, just ignore haha
No, this is absolutely how I feel. I don't *like* Biden, but it's easier to accomplish things like reproductive rights and LGBT rights *under* Biden.
And as much as Biden keeps fumbling the Israel and Gaza situation, I highly doubt he would ever send American troops over there to slaughter Palestinians. Trump is aligned with genocidal evangelicals who need Palestinians dead to summon Jesus and I am very sure they'd convince him to send American soldiers there to kill every last Palestinian.
Same. I’ve never really liked Biden and personally I don’t even consider myself a democrat. But you bet your ass I’m going to be voting democrat until we have better candidates.
I go back and forth on this all the time. I agree with you and then I oscillate to complete nihilism about our government, and then I calm down, and the cycle continues lmao.
Project 2025 is terrifying and so is the way that Trump’s narcissism will allow the evangelicals you referenced to run rampant.
Biden has been disappointing to say the least on Israel/Palestine, but wouldn’t things become a thousand times worse if Trump, who’s good friends with Nethanyu, won? I don’t get the Genocide Joe rhetoric. As a non- American, a Trump victory would be a disaster.
There's likely some degree of foreign influence, since it's easier to convince someone to not vote than it is to convince someone to vote for Trump.
Then there are the young people who haven't fully matured yet and can't think rationally about how they're helping Palestine by assuring Trump wins.
Then there are the people who think Biden will still win even if they don't vote, which is the narrative the foreign influencers are promoting through TikTok and Twitter with fake videos (the grammar leads me to think Russian).
I don't even know what politics they follow. Maybe fauxgressivism.
I am going to be charitable to the mods because the last time they allowed any discussion of anything related to Jews, it devolved into extreme antisemitism and allegedly the Reddit admins warned them to cut it out. So I am assuming they're deleting anything about Palestine to avoid drawing the ire of the admins again (I'd say the admins are pro-Palestine but are heavily curtailing antisemitism). I know for a fact they were in hot water over off-site brigading years ago. That sub is constantly in danger of deletion. Other snark subs have been banned for less.
And supporting the victims of the genocide gets you permabanned.
They're performative liberals over there, for the most part. Definitely not actual leftists or people willing to do the real work in making the world a better place.
Sorry to hear that. I just friended you, although I don't know what that really means on reddit. :p The fact posters are not allowed to talk about the ongoing slaughter of children when it is absolutely related to fundies and their Christian Zionism and a direct consequence of said Christian Zionism is wild. But fuck them. Palestine will be free.
I advise you to watch Taylor and Drew's reaction to the Bethy/Zelph video (Drew has his own huge atheist channel, Genetically Modified Skeptic). If you want, you can skip to around 22 minutes in, Taylor brings up fundie snarking and they make some excellent points on how toxic it is and Drew talks about how it's essentially the same as the anti-SJW reddit communities he was drawn into for a few months; both reddit anti-SJWs and fundie snarkers think they're right and make up lies and fake narratives to support their cause. It goes on for about 10 minutes and they do an excellent job of summing up everything wrong.
I read the comments a few hours ago and there are a ton on how toxic fundie snarking has become. Of course there's few whiners whining, but it doesn't seem like anyone is giving them the time of day in the comments. And of course, the subreddit is whining about how they've been betrayed by these people too.
But damn, Drew is right, they really do behave like the anti-SJWs. Taylor brings up they're acting like the fundies they hate (also right!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE5hip7BPYI
(EDIT: It looks like Taylor is deleting the fundie snark apologists because they were just straight up harassing people and once again, lying and making up stories with no evidence.)
Yeah, Taylor and Drew are now evil transphobes bigot racist sexists. Taylor is still in the comments telling the people who didn't watch the video that they don't condone or promote any of the views of Girl Defined.
Keep in mind that Taylor and Drew were also once fundies themselves and deconstructed into atheism. I've been a fan of Drew's for years because he is the only tolerable atheist content creator BECAUSE he's been on the other side. And he also brings up a good point that most atheist content is anti-SJW on Youtube and Reddit. And Taylor has become a very interesting creator too--she started off with anti-MLM stuff because MLMs are big in fundie land.
Something else that I think is noteworthy, after Sam deleted her explanation post, it was a mod who reposted screenshots of it. There are two mods that seem to primary mod or at least the most active mods and both of them were, at least initially, fully engaged with gleefully snarking on Zelph in a really mean spirited way.
And they ban for disagreeing . You can say you think the mods are a bit too much and you're banned. Lmao it's a circle jerk over there getting high on their own farts and from time to time queen Jen fundie Fridays wafts one thier way.
my eyes kind of glaze over whenever I see anything about it because honestly, I think everyone involved (and particularly those involved from the sub) thinks they’re a whole lot more important than they actually are to everyone else involved
I found the P&M post calling the main sub out fascinating though, particularly because a bunch of people I’ve never seen before in a subreddit of hundreds of thousands of users are 100% sure that NOBODY from there would EVER harass them because there is a RULE about it. Are you high Clairee of course people from the sub are following, interacting with, probably financially supporting, and yes, harassing them.
Yeah, the sub wouldn't ever even know if someone interacted with them unless they told in themselves. The rule mostly prevents people from farming the fundies for content to screenshot and post on the sub. Doesn't stop people from being assholes for their own enjoyment.
I loved the antibot video for its critique of snarking. There is a level of healthy critique, but once you slip past that, it really isn't healthy or constructive anymore, and doesn't help you to turn away from the same types of thinking that makes fundamentalism so dangerous.
I saw a post lately where someone was struggling to articulate what fundamentalism is, like what differentiates a fundie from other Christians. It's fine to not know that and that's a good question to ask, but it's interesting to me that people can get invested enough in snark to talk about it, but that a community *based around talking about fundamentalists* hasn't made it clear to its audience what that even *means.* I think that speaks less to this person's ignorance and more to the community being run as basically "whichever conservative Christians we don't like."
The misinformation drives me crazy too. With the Paul and Morgan thing, they even have a video from like a year ago *specifically about Morgan's mental health story.* Morgan herself says she went through DBT for her BPD, and that she and her psychiatrist mutually agreed that she was in an okay place to stop depression/anxiety meds. So we have an easy to find video (like literally, I Googled "Paul and Morgan mental health YouTube" and found it very easily) with Morgan telling her story, yet people continue talking over her! Before that, we had what I think was the lowest point, where Dave had to make a video speaking up to say he hadn't gone to conversion camp because the rumor spread so much. If this were *anyone else* being forced to talk about their sexuality or mental health history before they were ready, people would be pissed, but somehow it's okay because it's people we don't like?
I remember watching Dav’s video addressing the conversion camp thing. At the time I thought “what an odd place to be in life, addressing something that never happened to you to strangers on the internet who hate you”. I remember him using the opportunity as well to talk about how terrible he thinks conversion therapy is and how he’s heard about the awful things people going through it have experienced.
So even then he didn’t even support that kind of harmful Christian practice, but was also having to defend himself in a certain way, because ultimately the reason a rumor like that begins is based in the same stereotypes about sexuality that causes men in fundamentalism to repress any impulse they have to enjoy or do things that are considered unmasculine. People bring up the same implications with Paul and his Disney t-shirts and past as a hairdresser.
I remember Jimmy Snow's channel spreading it around back when he was Mr. Atheist, but can't remember if he was the origin or if he was just the most popular person to talk about it. It's kind of funny that he isn't snark, because I remember learning about some of the main people (Girl Defined, Paul and Morgan) through his channel when I landed there in my early "bitter agnostic" stage.
I don’t know where it originally started, tbh Girl Defined wasn’t really of interest to me until Dav started deconstructing and Bethy publicly supported him. Before now I haven’t really connected much with the snark on Girl Defined mainly because I don’t find their messages to be unique or surprising at all and I find it harmful but just didn’t have that spark of *something* I wanted to get to the bottom of.
So I really don’t remember where the rumor came from, it’s been around for years and I remember it being referenced in other snark spaces as well. So wherever it came from, it was definitely the snark community that propped it up and gave it life.
> With the Paul and Morgan thing, they even have a video from like a year ago specifically about Morgan's mental health story. Morgan herself says she went through DBT for her BPD, and that she and her psychiatrist mutually agreed that she was in an okay place to stop depression/anxiety meds. So we have an easy to find video (like literally, I Googled "Paul and Morgan mental health YouTube" and found it very easily) with Morgan telling her story, yet people continue talking over her!
Originally, *some* mental health meds (for anxiety and depression) were supposed to be used in a way that Morgan describes--they're to get you to a better place so you can acquire the tools to deal with your mental illnesses and learn how to handle them when you go off the medication. Note that even back then, psychiatrists knew that some (but not all) patients would need them for life, but the ultimate goal for people in the mild-to-moderate range was to build up your mental health toolbox.
Somewhere along the way, this became lost and many people just expect to be on them for life regardless of severity. I do not have anxiety or depression and a doctor asked me if I wanted an antidepressant for "a little pep" which is ridiculous. So I blame doctors, NOT people with anxiety or depression. The medical system has most mostly failed them. My dad is a psychiatrist and he promotes the holistic view of mental health. So I hear about this stuff on a personal and HIPAA compliant level.
What Morgan did is absolutely in line with standards of care for her mental illness and I do not blame her one bit for wanting to be off them due to side effects and such. I do not judge anyone who needs them for life though! But people need to realize some people want to treat their illnesses with a different strategy and Morgan chose to learn how to cope without medication. Obviously she still struggles, but she seems to deal with it.
(fyi: the aforementioned isn't applicable to mental illnesses like schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. Some mental illnesses absolutely need mental health meds for life, but I am not going to list them all out here.)
I agree with you. Especially about that part where snakers are literally lying about fundies. They also bully them, but I think lying is bigger issues because it really spreads lots of miss-informations. Lest recap their biggest hits that are now consider TRUE facts at main subreddit :
- Josh Hawley is Morgan's cousin (there is no proof of that, anybody who ask for proof was banned )
- Kelly is calling her daughter Tess (she does not)
- Nadia is not married and even if she is married, she and her husband don't live together (that is just weird fanfiction)
- Dav was in conversion therapy (that is almost vile lie)
- Kristen was not attracted to her husband (that was joke that Kristen made, how they take it so seriously)
- Rodrigues children hate their mother (suuuuuuuuuuure)
- Paul forced Morgan to go off meds (in video I seen, Morgan said she did it voluntarily, because she did not feel meds are helping any more)
- Paul is works at Walmart/ Instacart ? (that started as joke, but I did see few people taking it seriously)
- Father Bus have secret second family (suuuuuuuuure, that is why he is chronically online)
And there is SO MUCH more. Of course now, they are making lies about ZOTS too. Snarkers LOVE to do that. Soon enough, this lies became true, because trying to fact-check anything is worst offence you can commit in main subreddit.
I don't even read main subreddit any more. I don't have energy for that.
Oh yeah:
- ZOTS are terfs/"LGB drop the T"
- ZOTS is actually a straight cis couple lying for acceptance/clout/authority/oppression points
- Sam is racist because she used the "see-no-evil monkey emoji" 🙈 even though it comes from a Japanese proverb that was super popular in the West in the early 00s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wise_monkeys
- ZOTS used bots because it is impossible to gain 100 new subscribers over a few days
Another one is that Father Bus is majorly rich from a trust fund. One snarker very creepily went through Father Bus family history (stalker behavior, if you ask me). I read the snarker’s summary and while there was some wealth in his family at some point, there was no proof that Father Bus inherited it (or even if there’s any money left!). It’s crazy to me everyone just accepts it as fact now. “Oh yeah, they can travel cause he’s rich.” Um, maybe he’s just in debt? He could have a side job. He may or may not have a trust fund. We really don’t know.
I am on the sub and I don’t pay as much attention / I have poor memory so a lot of things when posted confidently I take as truth because I just assume I’m out of the loop. I will keep an eye out. Thank you for your clarifications.
Someone mentioned this sub cryptically and I was like…wait I can’t be reading that right. So I asked for clarification. They is sallttyyyyyy over there
It’s crazy that on that thread is a comment that says this thread thinks they are too lenient and compromising… uhhhhh… too lenient and compromising on what exactly? Because they’re constantly going too far in my book
I took a quick peek in there yesterday and sure enough: “I haven’t watched the videos, but - \*inserts a bunch of speculation and very wrong assumptions\*”. Yep, exactly what Taylor (Antibot) criticized the sub for. Good job being objective. Have fun 🫠
In the interview Dav said if sex is between 2 consenting adults then it’s no one’s business and everyone should mind their own. The snarkers twisted that into Dav calling gay people groomers…. It’s like they only hear what they are looking for and use no critical thinking skills.
Maybe I have too many brain cells, but that's exactly the stance most liberals take worldwide on LGBT relationships. In Obergefell vs. Hodges, the majority opinion was summed up:
>Judicial precedent has held that the right to marry is a fundamental liberty because it is inherent to the concept of individual autonomy, it protects the most intimate association between two people, it safeguards children and families by according legal recognition to building a home and raising children, and it has historically been recognized as the keystone of social order. ***Because there are no differences between a same-sex union and an opposite-sex union with respect to these principles, the exclusion of same-sex couples from the right to marry violates the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.***
So I guess the Supreme Court approved gay marriage because they're groomers too? You can tell these people are probably 18-20 years old who never really grew up in an era where gay people could not even be married or even have visitation rights in the hospital.
Yeah I’m not out here to say I think Dav is perfect or had fully deconstructed to the point of understanding what it is he believes, but they really just wanted to misunderstand him.
Excellent points. I just don’t understand how quickly so many people have turned ZOTS into “minor fundies.” I also expected the vitriol to smolder out but Jfc it’s almost intensified.
I've been skeptical of the snark community for a bit, but the ZOTS situation converted me away entirely. I appreciate you conceded some legitimate criticism of ZOTS approach, but obviously main sub blew it way out of proportion/took it out of context, and I genuinely believe ZOTS did good and led to more dialogue/reflection amongst a lot of people.
we can’t even discuss the legitimate criticism over there or talk about some of the strategies that are actually most helpful for fundies facing deconstruction, because it all just gets covered up by people talking about the optics of ZOTS “platforming” a creator who exists in a completely opposite space and *has virtually nothing to gain* by being exposed to Zelph’s audience. it’s like actually getting illogical at this point.
I've been trying to figure out how to say this without sounding like I'm simplifying it too much but I really think a huge chunk of the INSANE snark about Sam is because she's very pretty, intelligent, and the type of person people tend to generally think positively of out in the real world. And like... a significant chunk of snarking, especially recently, is just thinly veiled misogyny. She's not an idiot, she's not awkward or unlikable, she's not ugly, and soooo what do they have to go on? The fact that she'd openly like to make this sort of work her full-time job, so they call it a "grift" even though that word specifically implies being UNtransparent. I don't wanna see this energy for either of them, but it's really telling that all of their ire is for Sam.
Also, it's interesting to consider the "school of thought" (if you wanna call it that) that Sam and Tanner come out of in being ex-mormons is the Mormon Stories/John Dehlin camp, who are allllllll about long and thought-provoking "tough" conversations with people across the religious and political spectrum. Additionally, they're IN UTAH as ex-mormons, they interact with active church members every day of their lives! It's a very different reality than leaving Christian fundamentalism; you just straight up can't be like, "I'm never talking to someone from the church again!" because it completely surrounds you unless you move to a different state. I don't think people get (or WANT to get) how befriending Bethany and Dav is totally in their wheelhouse and not unconscionable to them at all.
If fundie snarkers don't want to interact with fundies in a generous way, fine. But I think some of them do need to take a leaf out of Sam and Tanner's book and go touch grass!! (This is a joke referencing the fact that from following them on social media for years at this point, I'm pretty sure those mfs go camping every damn weekend lol)
Agree with everything you've said about the mormon angle. I'm not really a Mormon Stories listener, but I've seen a few episodes and know that Sam and Tanner have been on it as both guests and (guest?) hosts. MS is a show that will actually interview faithful members/apologists. I guess the intent is to get a view for all kinds of mormon experiences and see how people navigate different issues, though the majority is focused towards the exmo side of things. At least that's my impression.There isn't usually much uproar about the "platforming" of apologists in that realm. Maybe it's because the exmos don't buy it, and not many faithful members are listening (especially since John got excommunicated)? I know some people have issues with John Dehlin. I really don't follow him or MS enough to have an opinion on any of that.
You're very right about the Utah aspect too. You truly cannot escape the church if you live in certain places. It's definitely part of why ZOTS and MS focus more on reaching across the aisle.
Being exmormon can be similar but also very different to being ex-fundie. And not all Mormons have the same experience. My family wasn't one of those that thought caffeine was bad or had 10 kids or weren't allowed to read Harry Potter. But I had mormon friends whose families were like that. I think Cults to Consciousness is an exmo youtuber? I saw one video with her in it and did not relate to her experience (as described in that video) very much at all.
On your second to last bullet point, yes that is what many posts were doing. Someone would wildly misconstrue the content and tone in the least charitable way possible and others would thank them as they weren’t going to “give them views.” In my view it snowballed a bit to people taking 1 persons opinion as the truth to what happened in video and building off those opinions.
I get that folks don’t think they should be charitable to Zots. But the interesting thing to me for a fundie critical space was the lack of dissent or alternative takes and the lack of critical thinking generally. Also clearly treating them as harshly as actual fundies. I have my own criticisms of Zots— mainly they are too new age for my tastes and I think their editing choices on what we’ve seen so far will end up being a mistake.
But ultimately, what should be a discussion on differing approaches on how to handle deconstructing fundie influencers is instead treated as irony poisoned bloodsport.
i’m late to this post but i’m so glad someone said it. i’m not saying everyone in that sub is an asshole, but it really does feel like they’ve lost the plot. dont they want girl defined to deconstruct? or at least have less harmful views? i get that not everyone is in a position where they can sit down and have a conversation with a fundamentalist without being triggered but omg
Even if they DID deconstruct entirely, I feel like the sub would be moving the goalposts constantly to justify continuing to talk shit. It's like an addiction at this point
I can’t believe they’re turning on the antibot now, too. It feels very “there are no valid critiques of this community, anyone with any criticism at all is a cult member and allowing them access to your squishy brain meats will result in them devouring you whole”
They started turning a while ago when the antibot defended Paul and Morgan’s basic humanity.
Which is the same rhetoric fundamentalist spaces use to keep people in. Interesting.
The lack of critical thinking about this whole situation has highlighted a lot of the worst parts of leftist spaces, too. I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. There’s a notion that if you SPEAK to a person who disagrees with you on something political, you MUST be endorsing every thing they have ever said or done. If your friends support Israel or Trump, you have to drop them like a hot potato and defame them where they work, etc. How the fuck are we supposed to do anything to better our world if we aren’t allowed to talk to people who disagree with us? The way people are expecting Bethy to be 100% deconstructed and suddenly understand trans people is just ludicrous. Same with Dav. They might get there someday and ya know what’s gonna make that process go a lot faster? Becoming friends with new people LIKE SAM AND TANNER. It’s! Not! Rocket! Science!
You’re so right! and this polarization and impulse toward shunning on the left only makes it easier for the right to recruit. The general critical attitude about the ZOTS collab is so detached from reality and it really soured my view on the main sub. I feel doubtful that anything any current snark subject does in the future as far as deconstruction, changing views, etc could ever change some of these peoples’ perspectives.
“Only makes it easier for the right to recruit” is spot on.
Without getting too far into detail, I have a friend that I'm grey-rocking at this point because she's bought into the "Genocide Joe" propaganda where people are encouraging fellow liberals to not vote for Biden, thus ensuring that Trump wins. At the time, I was so confused and honestly Genocide Joe sounds like a Republican phrase like "Sleepy Joe". But now I realize it's the most obvious foreign interference on the left--if you can't get enough new Trump voters, just make the left not vote so Trump wins. I said something along the lines of still supporting her even though she's a Trump supporter. She devolved into a rant about how dare I call her a Trump supporter, but I'm like...if you don't vote for Biden then Trump will win, see the 2016 election and Hillary for how that works out. And people were calling liberal non-voters Trump supporters, how is this any different? I'm not going to discriminate, but I might judge if you complain about Trump being president.
I feel like it’s hard to find the line between critiquing and realizing Joe Biden is a bad president who really doesn’t deserve a second term and also that voting for him is strategic to keep someone somehow even more bad out of office. Even if Biden or Trump died (theoretical due to age), the vice president under Biden would be FAR better. That being said, there are solutions out there and they usually result in grassroots organizing. Like the bigger issue is the 2 party system, gerrymandering, voter suppression, and lack of motivation that things change but not voting for Joe Biden won’t solve that, it’ll just mean you didn’t vote for Joe Biden. That being said, it’s the same thing with snarking on fundies. What could point out problems and move people to change legal structures, forms of abuse, and popular religious dogma has instead turned into bullying the weird looking kid. Why are we targeting women with kids in evangelical structures when those women and children are the weakest and most vulnerable members of that society? Why aren’t they snarking on Mark Driscoll and Jerry Falwell Jr and the other key players that keep this bullshit alive and politically influence it? Some yee-haw family reading the Bible every night and wearing camo is less of an issue than someone who wields power over others to create abusive power structures that mobilize regular people to do wild things. They don’t even look at the focal point of what causes this anymore, just yapping about the symptoms. Idk.
> Why aren’t they snarking on Mark Driscoll and Jerry Falwell Jr and the other key players that keep this bullshit alive and politically influence it? Because they're not women with an Instagram account. Bethel Church/Charismatic Pentecostals/New Apostolic Reformation has overtaken most Republicans' religious affiliation in our government and that denomination believes the government must be conquered to summon Jesus (Seven Mountains Mandate). When Trump was meeting with Christian leaders, they weren't historically conservative denominations Reformed Presbyterians or LCMS. They were all part of the New Apostolic Reformation.
I scared myself witless by reading about the New Apostolic Reformation & Project 25 on the same day. While we tend to be a bit more liberal politically here in the UK than the US, trends also have a habit of filtering over the pond in some form or another & the mere thought terrifies me. I can only imagine what it feels like to watch it happening in your own country.
There is already a “Christians in Parliament” group and the evangelical alliance in the UK has pages and pages of ways to write parliament about this, that, and the other thing to try and make things more Christian 🫤
I think a good way of looking at is is you an both advocate/work for ultimately changing the system as a whole to be better, but also recognize the reality that you have to be able to work with the system as is in the present in the mean time....if that makes sense?
If you’re interested in talking to your friend about it more, there’s a video of AOC and Mehdi Hasan talking about this where AOC basically says (barring actual Palestinian Americans whose families have been killed) the question of if you’ll vote for Biden in the general is about what conditions you want to be organizing under in the next four years. I personally voted uncommitted in the primary because I believe people should feel free to vote their conscience in a primary, but I think the best way to approach the general is not posing the issue as “you either have to vote for or critique Biden, it can’t be both.” We’ve been taught that voting is this moral responsibility even moreso than just a “civic duty,” because people “fought for us to be able to vote.” So it seems unbelievably heinous and confusing to feel like you’re casting this moral indicator for something or someone you feel has acted completely immorally — but framing voting more for what it is, which is just a strategic game basically (at least under this electoral system) I think could be effective. Like, yeah, he’s Genocide Joe — but we as a coalition and a country will be less able to fight back against the mistakes he’s made if there are people like Trump in power who will further oppress us economically, from a human rights and bodily autonomy standpoint as well, and make it harder for us to live — which also makes it harder for us to have the energy & resources we need to organize and fight for the coming four years. Empathy is key too, ya know? Like I think those who can’t genuinely feel and understand the frustration people have with Biden over this issue are too disconnected from it to really help. It could also help to just be like, Hey, I know exactly how you feel and I feel the same way. I’m just choosing to make a different choice in the general because I know that the people Trump would hurt if elected are people we need in order to create a world one day where the U.S. doesn’t have the role that it does right now with Israel. Or with war in general. And the pain of Americans who can’t get the abortion they need or can’t afford housing wouldn’t erase or take the place of those suffering in Gaza; it would only add to the worldwide suffering and set us back even further. And if none of this is wanted or helpful I’m sorry, just ignore haha
No, this is absolutely how I feel. I don't *like* Biden, but it's easier to accomplish things like reproductive rights and LGBT rights *under* Biden. And as much as Biden keeps fumbling the Israel and Gaza situation, I highly doubt he would ever send American troops over there to slaughter Palestinians. Trump is aligned with genocidal evangelicals who need Palestinians dead to summon Jesus and I am very sure they'd convince him to send American soldiers there to kill every last Palestinian.
Same. I’ve never really liked Biden and personally I don’t even consider myself a democrat. But you bet your ass I’m going to be voting democrat until we have better candidates.
I go back and forth on this all the time. I agree with you and then I oscillate to complete nihilism about our government, and then I calm down, and the cycle continues lmao. Project 2025 is terrifying and so is the way that Trump’s narcissism will allow the evangelicals you referenced to run rampant.
Biden has been disappointing to say the least on Israel/Palestine, but wouldn’t things become a thousand times worse if Trump, who’s good friends with Nethanyu, won? I don’t get the Genocide Joe rhetoric. As a non- American, a Trump victory would be a disaster.
There's likely some degree of foreign influence, since it's easier to convince someone to not vote than it is to convince someone to vote for Trump. Then there are the young people who haven't fully matured yet and can't think rationally about how they're helping Palestine by assuring Trump wins. Then there are the people who think Biden will still win even if they don't vote, which is the narrative the foreign influencers are promoting through TikTok and Twitter with fake videos (the grammar leads me to think Russian).
Fundiesnark isn't a leftist place though. They are very much in support of Biden and comments about the ongoing genocide get deleted.
I don't even know what politics they follow. Maybe fauxgressivism. I am going to be charitable to the mods because the last time they allowed any discussion of anything related to Jews, it devolved into extreme antisemitism and allegedly the Reddit admins warned them to cut it out. So I am assuming they're deleting anything about Palestine to avoid drawing the ire of the admins again (I'd say the admins are pro-Palestine but are heavily curtailing antisemitism). I know for a fact they were in hot water over off-site brigading years ago. That sub is constantly in danger of deletion. Other snark subs have been banned for less.
you’re absolutely correct. the final straw in leaving that sub for me was seeing them all shit on leftists
For sure, I’m just in other leftist spaces that the main sub reminds me of and vice versa.
And supporting the victims of the genocide gets you permabanned. They're performative liberals over there, for the most part. Definitely not actual leftists or people willing to do the real work in making the world a better place.
Sorry to hear that. I just friended you, although I don't know what that really means on reddit. :p The fact posters are not allowed to talk about the ongoing slaughter of children when it is absolutely related to fundies and their Christian Zionism and a direct consequence of said Christian Zionism is wild. But fuck them. Palestine will be free.
I advise you to watch Taylor and Drew's reaction to the Bethy/Zelph video (Drew has his own huge atheist channel, Genetically Modified Skeptic). If you want, you can skip to around 22 minutes in, Taylor brings up fundie snarking and they make some excellent points on how toxic it is and Drew talks about how it's essentially the same as the anti-SJW reddit communities he was drawn into for a few months; both reddit anti-SJWs and fundie snarkers think they're right and make up lies and fake narratives to support their cause. It goes on for about 10 minutes and they do an excellent job of summing up everything wrong. I read the comments a few hours ago and there are a ton on how toxic fundie snarking has become. Of course there's few whiners whining, but it doesn't seem like anyone is giving them the time of day in the comments. And of course, the subreddit is whining about how they've been betrayed by these people too. But damn, Drew is right, they really do behave like the anti-SJWs. Taylor brings up they're acting like the fundies they hate (also right!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE5hip7BPYI (EDIT: It looks like Taylor is deleting the fundie snark apologists because they were just straight up harassing people and once again, lying and making up stories with no evidence.)
Yes! I make mention of them a couple of times in my post. The main sub is turning against them now too.
Oops I missed that! I kinda read the first half and thought, "Dang, you need to watch this video."
Nooo not Taylor and Drew😭. They're my favorite YouTube couple... 
Damnit, really?
Yeah, Taylor and Drew are now evil transphobes bigot racist sexists. Taylor is still in the comments telling the people who didn't watch the video that they don't condone or promote any of the views of Girl Defined. Keep in mind that Taylor and Drew were also once fundies themselves and deconstructed into atheism. I've been a fan of Drew's for years because he is the only tolerable atheist content creator BECAUSE he's been on the other side. And he also brings up a good point that most atheist content is anti-SJW on Youtube and Reddit. And Taylor has become a very interesting creator too--she started off with anti-MLM stuff because MLMs are big in fundie land.
Something else that I think is noteworthy, after Sam deleted her explanation post, it was a mod who reposted screenshots of it. There are two mods that seem to primary mod or at least the most active mods and both of them were, at least initially, fully engaged with gleefully snarking on Zelph in a really mean spirited way.
I noticed that, too. It sure seemed like they had an idea of how they wanted this all to go down.
And they ban for disagreeing . You can say you think the mods are a bit too much and you're banned. Lmao it's a circle jerk over there getting high on their own farts and from time to time queen Jen fundie Fridays wafts one thier way.
my eyes kind of glaze over whenever I see anything about it because honestly, I think everyone involved (and particularly those involved from the sub) thinks they’re a whole lot more important than they actually are to everyone else involved I found the P&M post calling the main sub out fascinating though, particularly because a bunch of people I’ve never seen before in a subreddit of hundreds of thousands of users are 100% sure that NOBODY from there would EVER harass them because there is a RULE about it. Are you high Clairee of course people from the sub are following, interacting with, probably financially supporting, and yes, harassing them.
Yeah, the sub wouldn't ever even know if someone interacted with them unless they told in themselves. The rule mostly prevents people from farming the fundies for content to screenshot and post on the sub. Doesn't stop people from being assholes for their own enjoyment.
I loved the antibot video for its critique of snarking. There is a level of healthy critique, but once you slip past that, it really isn't healthy or constructive anymore, and doesn't help you to turn away from the same types of thinking that makes fundamentalism so dangerous. I saw a post lately where someone was struggling to articulate what fundamentalism is, like what differentiates a fundie from other Christians. It's fine to not know that and that's a good question to ask, but it's interesting to me that people can get invested enough in snark to talk about it, but that a community *based around talking about fundamentalists* hasn't made it clear to its audience what that even *means.* I think that speaks less to this person's ignorance and more to the community being run as basically "whichever conservative Christians we don't like." The misinformation drives me crazy too. With the Paul and Morgan thing, they even have a video from like a year ago *specifically about Morgan's mental health story.* Morgan herself says she went through DBT for her BPD, and that she and her psychiatrist mutually agreed that she was in an okay place to stop depression/anxiety meds. So we have an easy to find video (like literally, I Googled "Paul and Morgan mental health YouTube" and found it very easily) with Morgan telling her story, yet people continue talking over her! Before that, we had what I think was the lowest point, where Dave had to make a video speaking up to say he hadn't gone to conversion camp because the rumor spread so much. If this were *anyone else* being forced to talk about their sexuality or mental health history before they were ready, people would be pissed, but somehow it's okay because it's people we don't like?
I remember watching Dav’s video addressing the conversion camp thing. At the time I thought “what an odd place to be in life, addressing something that never happened to you to strangers on the internet who hate you”. I remember him using the opportunity as well to talk about how terrible he thinks conversion therapy is and how he’s heard about the awful things people going through it have experienced. So even then he didn’t even support that kind of harmful Christian practice, but was also having to defend himself in a certain way, because ultimately the reason a rumor like that begins is based in the same stereotypes about sexuality that causes men in fundamentalism to repress any impulse they have to enjoy or do things that are considered unmasculine. People bring up the same implications with Paul and his Disney t-shirts and past as a hairdresser.
I wasn't in the snark community at the time, but wasn't the conversion therapy rumour started by an atheist YT channel?
I remember Jimmy Snow's channel spreading it around back when he was Mr. Atheist, but can't remember if he was the origin or if he was just the most popular person to talk about it. It's kind of funny that he isn't snark, because I remember learning about some of the main people (Girl Defined, Paul and Morgan) through his channel when I landed there in my early "bitter agnostic" stage.
I had the exact same experience as you! Bitter agnostic is a great way to describe it.
I don’t know where it originally started, tbh Girl Defined wasn’t really of interest to me until Dav started deconstructing and Bethy publicly supported him. Before now I haven’t really connected much with the snark on Girl Defined mainly because I don’t find their messages to be unique or surprising at all and I find it harmful but just didn’t have that spark of *something* I wanted to get to the bottom of. So I really don’t remember where the rumor came from, it’s been around for years and I remember it being referenced in other snark spaces as well. So wherever it came from, it was definitely the snark community that propped it up and gave it life.
> With the Paul and Morgan thing, they even have a video from like a year ago specifically about Morgan's mental health story. Morgan herself says she went through DBT for her BPD, and that she and her psychiatrist mutually agreed that she was in an okay place to stop depression/anxiety meds. So we have an easy to find video (like literally, I Googled "Paul and Morgan mental health YouTube" and found it very easily) with Morgan telling her story, yet people continue talking over her! Originally, *some* mental health meds (for anxiety and depression) were supposed to be used in a way that Morgan describes--they're to get you to a better place so you can acquire the tools to deal with your mental illnesses and learn how to handle them when you go off the medication. Note that even back then, psychiatrists knew that some (but not all) patients would need them for life, but the ultimate goal for people in the mild-to-moderate range was to build up your mental health toolbox. Somewhere along the way, this became lost and many people just expect to be on them for life regardless of severity. I do not have anxiety or depression and a doctor asked me if I wanted an antidepressant for "a little pep" which is ridiculous. So I blame doctors, NOT people with anxiety or depression. The medical system has most mostly failed them. My dad is a psychiatrist and he promotes the holistic view of mental health. So I hear about this stuff on a personal and HIPAA compliant level. What Morgan did is absolutely in line with standards of care for her mental illness and I do not blame her one bit for wanting to be off them due to side effects and such. I do not judge anyone who needs them for life though! But people need to realize some people want to treat their illnesses with a different strategy and Morgan chose to learn how to cope without medication. Obviously she still struggles, but she seems to deal with it. (fyi: the aforementioned isn't applicable to mental illnesses like schizophrenia, bipolar, etc. Some mental illnesses absolutely need mental health meds for life, but I am not going to list them all out here.)
I agree with you. Especially about that part where snakers are literally lying about fundies. They also bully them, but I think lying is bigger issues because it really spreads lots of miss-informations. Lest recap their biggest hits that are now consider TRUE facts at main subreddit : - Josh Hawley is Morgan's cousin (there is no proof of that, anybody who ask for proof was banned ) - Kelly is calling her daughter Tess (she does not) - Nadia is not married and even if she is married, she and her husband don't live together (that is just weird fanfiction) - Dav was in conversion therapy (that is almost vile lie) - Kristen was not attracted to her husband (that was joke that Kristen made, how they take it so seriously) - Rodrigues children hate their mother (suuuuuuuuuuure) - Paul forced Morgan to go off meds (in video I seen, Morgan said she did it voluntarily, because she did not feel meds are helping any more) - Paul is works at Walmart/ Instacart ? (that started as joke, but I did see few people taking it seriously) - Father Bus have secret second family (suuuuuuuuure, that is why he is chronically online) And there is SO MUCH more. Of course now, they are making lies about ZOTS too. Snarkers LOVE to do that. Soon enough, this lies became true, because trying to fact-check anything is worst offence you can commit in main subreddit. I don't even read main subreddit any more. I don't have energy for that.
Oh yeah: - ZOTS are terfs/"LGB drop the T" - ZOTS is actually a straight cis couple lying for acceptance/clout/authority/oppression points - Sam is racist because she used the "see-no-evil monkey emoji" 🙈 even though it comes from a Japanese proverb that was super popular in the West in the early 00s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_wise_monkeys - ZOTS used bots because it is impossible to gain 100 new subscribers over a few days
Another one is that Father Bus is majorly rich from a trust fund. One snarker very creepily went through Father Bus family history (stalker behavior, if you ask me). I read the snarker’s summary and while there was some wealth in his family at some point, there was no proof that Father Bus inherited it (or even if there’s any money left!). It’s crazy to me everyone just accepts it as fact now. “Oh yeah, they can travel cause he’s rich.” Um, maybe he’s just in debt? He could have a side job. He may or may not have a trust fund. We really don’t know.
I am on the sub and I don’t pay as much attention / I have poor memory so a lot of things when posted confidently I take as truth because I just assume I’m out of the loop. I will keep an eye out. Thank you for your clarifications.
Someone mentioned this sub cryptically and I was like…wait I can’t be reading that right. So I asked for clarification. They is sallttyyyyyy over there
Yep, that exchange is how I found this sub
Heyyyy welcome! I just didn’t say shit after that and just let myself be amused.
It’s crazy that on that thread is a comment that says this thread thinks they are too lenient and compromising… uhhhhh… too lenient and compromising on what exactly? Because they’re constantly going too far in my book
Yeah I didn’t get that either. Like ma’am it’s literally the complete opposite of that.
I took a quick peek in there yesterday and sure enough: “I haven’t watched the videos, but - \*inserts a bunch of speculation and very wrong assumptions\*”. Yep, exactly what Taylor (Antibot) criticized the sub for. Good job being objective. Have fun 🫠
In the interview Dav said if sex is between 2 consenting adults then it’s no one’s business and everyone should mind their own. The snarkers twisted that into Dav calling gay people groomers…. It’s like they only hear what they are looking for and use no critical thinking skills.
Maybe I have too many brain cells, but that's exactly the stance most liberals take worldwide on LGBT relationships. In Obergefell vs. Hodges, the majority opinion was summed up: >Judicial precedent has held that the right to marry is a fundamental liberty because it is inherent to the concept of individual autonomy, it protects the most intimate association between two people, it safeguards children and families by according legal recognition to building a home and raising children, and it has historically been recognized as the keystone of social order. ***Because there are no differences between a same-sex union and an opposite-sex union with respect to these principles, the exclusion of same-sex couples from the right to marry violates the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.*** So I guess the Supreme Court approved gay marriage because they're groomers too? You can tell these people are probably 18-20 years old who never really grew up in an era where gay people could not even be married or even have visitation rights in the hospital.
Yeah I’m not out here to say I think Dav is perfect or had fully deconstructed to the point of understanding what it is he believes, but they really just wanted to misunderstand him.
Excellent points. I just don’t understand how quickly so many people have turned ZOTS into “minor fundies.” I also expected the vitriol to smolder out but Jfc it’s almost intensified.
I've been skeptical of the snark community for a bit, but the ZOTS situation converted me away entirely. I appreciate you conceded some legitimate criticism of ZOTS approach, but obviously main sub blew it way out of proportion/took it out of context, and I genuinely believe ZOTS did good and led to more dialogue/reflection amongst a lot of people.
we can’t even discuss the legitimate criticism over there or talk about some of the strategies that are actually most helpful for fundies facing deconstruction, because it all just gets covered up by people talking about the optics of ZOTS “platforming” a creator who exists in a completely opposite space and *has virtually nothing to gain* by being exposed to Zelph’s audience. it’s like actually getting illogical at this point.
I've been trying to figure out how to say this without sounding like I'm simplifying it too much but I really think a huge chunk of the INSANE snark about Sam is because she's very pretty, intelligent, and the type of person people tend to generally think positively of out in the real world. And like... a significant chunk of snarking, especially recently, is just thinly veiled misogyny. She's not an idiot, she's not awkward or unlikable, she's not ugly, and soooo what do they have to go on? The fact that she'd openly like to make this sort of work her full-time job, so they call it a "grift" even though that word specifically implies being UNtransparent. I don't wanna see this energy for either of them, but it's really telling that all of their ire is for Sam. Also, it's interesting to consider the "school of thought" (if you wanna call it that) that Sam and Tanner come out of in being ex-mormons is the Mormon Stories/John Dehlin camp, who are allllllll about long and thought-provoking "tough" conversations with people across the religious and political spectrum. Additionally, they're IN UTAH as ex-mormons, they interact with active church members every day of their lives! It's a very different reality than leaving Christian fundamentalism; you just straight up can't be like, "I'm never talking to someone from the church again!" because it completely surrounds you unless you move to a different state. I don't think people get (or WANT to get) how befriending Bethany and Dav is totally in their wheelhouse and not unconscionable to them at all. If fundie snarkers don't want to interact with fundies in a generous way, fine. But I think some of them do need to take a leaf out of Sam and Tanner's book and go touch grass!! (This is a joke referencing the fact that from following them on social media for years at this point, I'm pretty sure those mfs go camping every damn weekend lol)
Agree with everything you've said about the mormon angle. I'm not really a Mormon Stories listener, but I've seen a few episodes and know that Sam and Tanner have been on it as both guests and (guest?) hosts. MS is a show that will actually interview faithful members/apologists. I guess the intent is to get a view for all kinds of mormon experiences and see how people navigate different issues, though the majority is focused towards the exmo side of things. At least that's my impression.There isn't usually much uproar about the "platforming" of apologists in that realm. Maybe it's because the exmos don't buy it, and not many faithful members are listening (especially since John got excommunicated)? I know some people have issues with John Dehlin. I really don't follow him or MS enough to have an opinion on any of that. You're very right about the Utah aspect too. You truly cannot escape the church if you live in certain places. It's definitely part of why ZOTS and MS focus more on reaching across the aisle. Being exmormon can be similar but also very different to being ex-fundie. And not all Mormons have the same experience. My family wasn't one of those that thought caffeine was bad or had 10 kids or weren't allowed to read Harry Potter. But I had mormon friends whose families were like that. I think Cults to Consciousness is an exmo youtuber? I saw one video with her in it and did not relate to her experience (as described in that video) very much at all.
Woah that's a good point, about the utah background.
On your second to last bullet point, yes that is what many posts were doing. Someone would wildly misconstrue the content and tone in the least charitable way possible and others would thank them as they weren’t going to “give them views.” In my view it snowballed a bit to people taking 1 persons opinion as the truth to what happened in video and building off those opinions. I get that folks don’t think they should be charitable to Zots. But the interesting thing to me for a fundie critical space was the lack of dissent or alternative takes and the lack of critical thinking generally. Also clearly treating them as harshly as actual fundies. I have my own criticisms of Zots— mainly they are too new age for my tastes and I think their editing choices on what we’ve seen so far will end up being a mistake. But ultimately, what should be a discussion on differing approaches on how to handle deconstructing fundie influencers is instead treated as irony poisoned bloodsport.
Anyone who did disagree was dog piled and downvoted to oblivion.
i’m late to this post but i’m so glad someone said it. i’m not saying everyone in that sub is an asshole, but it really does feel like they’ve lost the plot. dont they want girl defined to deconstruct? or at least have less harmful views? i get that not everyone is in a position where they can sit down and have a conversation with a fundamentalist without being triggered but omg
Even if they DID deconstruct entirely, I feel like the sub would be moving the goalposts constantly to justify continuing to talk shit. It's like an addiction at this point