I'm for it. P&M don't really have an organic following anymore (if they ever really did) and their platform is propped up by snarkers. It'll be a nice experiment to see just how much their platform suffers, though I have my doubts that everyone will abide by the boycott
P&M never had an audience or even snarker attention until Jimmy Snow (Mr. Atheist at the time) platformed them. The overlap between Jimmy Snow fans and Fundie Snarkers is almost a circle--which makes sense when he's a faux-feminist, misogynistic, transphobic asshole much like a lot of fundie snarkers. He uses that same language and fauxgressivism too.
He has since deleted all his Paul and Morgan (and Girl Defined) videos, but honestly, the P&M shit is his fault.
(He's done a great job of deleting the evidence, but he was bullying trans men on Twitter years ago while sucking up to trans women. He was also a misogynist to cis women. So if you put 2+2 together, you can figure out why he'd bully trans men but not trans women...)
I hate that guy, and I'm glad he lost his following. I used to be a fan until the whole drama thing a few years back and then I took a step back and realized what a gigantic asshole he is. He is definitely a lot more like other snarkers than some of them care to admit lmao
I am glad too. I looked at the subreddit that was tracking his bullshit and it seems he's gotten worse. He claims he's a leftist socialist, but then made fun of homeless people on a livestream about how they "wouldn't find repurposed malls good enough".
He's also such an egomaniac, refuses to accept that he's ever wrong or that he's the asshole. That's why his scandal was so bad, he inserted himself into a situation that he had no business in and refused to admit that he shouldn't have inserted himself and instead doubled down. The argument was over a poetry book which Jimmy admitted he hadn't even read! Yet he still felt his opinion was so significant that he needed to step in.
And a few years ago, John Oliver made a rebuttal to some right-winger asking "where does it stop?" about gay rights or something by saying "it stops somewhere". And Jimmy got pissed because "it was my idea first!" And I'm sure someone thought of it before you, Jimmy... it's not that original of an idea. But he was legit acting like John Oliver had stolen from him.
Honestly he is just the epitome of the irritating, self-righteous atheist who acts pretty much the exact same as religious assholes.
And now he's doubling down on trying to do political commentary. Back when I was a fan he tried to start a political commentary show and it bombed, I watched a couple of episodes and stopped watching because he just doesn't have a unique perspective or the ability to do real, in-depth analysis. They would get way less views than his other stuff. Yet that's pretty much all he makes nowadays
> The argument was over a poetry book which Jimmy admitted he hadn't even read! Yet he still felt his opinion was so significant that he needed to step in.
He really is just like fundie snarkers. Or fundie snarkers imitated him. Who knows?!
Finding out Jimmy Snow sent so many people into the fundie snark world honestly explains so much. He’s the atheist bro you actually have to worry about because he’s got a platform. Many atheist men are misogynistic in that they see religion as being “stupid women stuff” and tend to focus on the silly women in these circles. I could diatribe forever, but yes, this explains the lack of nuance, 8th grad edgelord attitude, and neoliberal feminism.
And honestly ex Mormon creators in particular tend to be a looooooooot like active Mormons, just on the other side of the aisle. He never got rid of his misogyny and self righteousness and feeling of superiority towards people who have different beliefs, he's just on the other side now. (Obviously not true for every single exmo creator but it's a trend I've noticed)
Thankfully he doesn't have much of a platform anymore, lmao. His videos get less than 10k views on average. But he still did a lot of damage when he did have a platform, I honestly doubt we'd be talking about P&M anymore if it wasn't for him
It's been a while so I could be misremembering, but it strikes me that Jimmy covered these folks without seeming to take them or their beliefs seriously. He could snark on what made their ideas about dating so shit, but it seemed like he didn't really view them as people who were capable of spreading harmful messages, or like he wanted to talk about the ways that fundamentalism as a structure warps our relationship to things like gender and sexuality.
I remember watching Jimmy's content when I first stepped into agnosticism and wanted some atheist content, and since I grew up in a red bubble to me, he genuinely seemed more progressive. But then the longer you watched, the more you could see the cracks. I remember the way he talked about sex (if the main sub thinks *Bethany* talks about her sex drive a lot, they should have seen Mr. "My Libido" back in the day) and pushed the idea that *everyone* should have sex prior to commitment and make sure your sex drives align made me *very uncomfortable* as an ace person (as if mixed-orientation relationships can't work). I honestly still have hangups around dating allosexual people because of shit like that. And that's not even starting to get into the things with women or trans people etc.
I remember when he tried to please all the people calling out his acephobia by....hosting an asexual sex worker on his channel.
She may have not realized she was being used as a pawn. It came across as Jimmy looking for a way to talk about his libido even more since the conversation was sexual in nature. It would have been interesting if literally anyone else interviewed her, since an asexual sex worker sounds like an oxymoron. But he ruined it.
He definitely does not seem like the person to have that conversation! I could see a different channel using that to talk about things like how broad the ace spectrum is, attraction vs. action, navigating sex for aces who aren't sex-repulsed (all kinds of cool things, and probably a ton I'm not thinking about) but that assumes the person guiding the conversation is doing the research and wants to understand beyond "see they have sex too!"
I was an ace sex worker (well, was a sex worker, still ace) and was surprised but then not surprised how common we are. Basically, we all view sex as a bit of a chore anyway, so might as well get paid for that chore. It's very similar to someone who is, let's say, a manager at work but absolutely hates managing at home. I distinctly remember the moment I decided to do it for money was when I tried to have sex with someone once and I found it soooo dull that I said to myself "you know, this would be less obnoxious if I'd gotten paid". Like, the dude was just so bad and I didn't like it so much I figured I might as well get something from it if people expect it from me anyway.
Talking to other workers, a lot of them felt the same. I often forget to count the folk from work when folk ask how many people I slept with because I'm like "oh right, I did sleep with them, I forgot".
People expect women to have sex and enjoy sex already. Might as well come out of the ordeal with a few hundred bucks and buy myself something nice or pay my rent while doing it.
I thought about Jimmy for the first time in years the other day and wondered if they were still doing YouTube. I’m just like you.. I found Jimmy right after realizing I was an atheist and was just desperate for a voice.. any voice.. that had been through something similar to me and managed to wind up “progressive”. I wasn’t picky yet because I didn’t know my options. I left quickly too. But one thing that I do also remember (like you) is how often they brought up their sex drive.. not a good or bad thing necessarily, but when combined with the possible stories I heard about them having relationships with fan(s) (I think? Didn’t I hear that?) it was too much.
I have been a fan of Jimmy. I haven’t seen what you’re talking about. That’s really disappointing to hear. Do you have any examples? Specifically of bullying trans men.
Imagining Paul halfway through the month of June slowly realizing their story views have suddenly dropped by thousands and being extremely puzzled is truly beautiful
It’s a bit of a paradox in a way though. I speak out against these channels not to drive traffic to them, but because they already have a lot of traffic and I think it’s important for people with dissenting opinions to speak up. The problem with just ignoring people like this is that it doesn’t make fundamentalism go away.
Agree with that. But they often find people with like 1k followers and are part of driving people to those pages. Nadia is a good example. She didn’t have a huge following and isn’t even fundie.
I can see that point. You definitely don’t want to “punch down” (for lack of a better term) to the extent that you’re boosting content that would otherwise fade into oblivion.
The snark community doesn’t exist without snark subjects. More and more, I think snark subjects wouldn’t exist (to the extent they do) without snarkers. They would effectively have to just stop snarking to actually do any “damage” to these subjects. I’m all for it, but seems like a way to continue to pat themselves on the back for being “above” the subjects without actually coming to terms with the fact that they, in large part, help create the monsters that they love/hate so much.
It’s a symbiotic relationship imo, and there is no way to actually distance themselves from giving these people a platform and views.
I would rather snarkers admit it’s all for snarking and stop bringing politics/righteous causes into it. Like, it’s way more digestible for me to simply snark on these people because they are fun to snark on than to pretend to be some righteous movement taking on the evil fundamentalists.
In all sincerity, I think they would improve their own mental health by not engaging with any of these people. Other snark subreddits constantly push using yewtube to watch videos so as to stop their numbers and harmful reach on big platforms. The best way to make change is to stifle their reach. I know Cody Ko got ahold of Bethy and Kristen content, but that would have been a flash pan, one and done silly video if not for the continued content mill around Girl Defined. The two would probably both be stay at home moms with decent Instagram followings and nothing more at this point if not for snarkers literally purchasing their content and viewing it. Do I think everyone has a right to critique and discuss public content? Yes, if they want to publicly put it out there then they can be publicly critiqued. However, there’s a point where your “hate follow” becomes just a version of ironically liking something.
I've been distancing myself from snark of her because it's obvious she is rage baiting Reddit specifically. I still want to watch the dumpster fire, but the ragebait is just too dumb.
I don't think it will limit much of the views they get on social media (if a snarker is used to checking ig stories, they're not going to stop because of a boycott), but it is already making it obvious how much of a focus P&M have become on the sub. It's wild because P&M have so very little actual influence. And so much of their content which gets shared is just the same thing over and over again and no new angles or insights.
I think it's performative AF. Boycotting for "pride month?" LOL, no, if they cared about pride month there would be no sub because every snark subject would be boycotted year round.
I think it’ll be interesting if P&M are boycotted. Mostly because they take any attention as good attention for themselves.
I legitimately think they follow snark subreddits because it validates that there are people who pay attention to them, even if they aren’t fans. They want to feel needed, even if it’s not a positive need from others.
I think boycotting them will make them freak out a little bit because they truly realize they have little to no actual followers.
I'm for it. P&M don't really have an organic following anymore (if they ever really did) and their platform is propped up by snarkers. It'll be a nice experiment to see just how much their platform suffers, though I have my doubts that everyone will abide by the boycott
P&M never had an audience or even snarker attention until Jimmy Snow (Mr. Atheist at the time) platformed them. The overlap between Jimmy Snow fans and Fundie Snarkers is almost a circle--which makes sense when he's a faux-feminist, misogynistic, transphobic asshole much like a lot of fundie snarkers. He uses that same language and fauxgressivism too. He has since deleted all his Paul and Morgan (and Girl Defined) videos, but honestly, the P&M shit is his fault. (He's done a great job of deleting the evidence, but he was bullying trans men on Twitter years ago while sucking up to trans women. He was also a misogynist to cis women. So if you put 2+2 together, you can figure out why he'd bully trans men but not trans women...)
I hate that guy, and I'm glad he lost his following. I used to be a fan until the whole drama thing a few years back and then I took a step back and realized what a gigantic asshole he is. He is definitely a lot more like other snarkers than some of them care to admit lmao
I am glad too. I looked at the subreddit that was tracking his bullshit and it seems he's gotten worse. He claims he's a leftist socialist, but then made fun of homeless people on a livestream about how they "wouldn't find repurposed malls good enough".
He's also such an egomaniac, refuses to accept that he's ever wrong or that he's the asshole. That's why his scandal was so bad, he inserted himself into a situation that he had no business in and refused to admit that he shouldn't have inserted himself and instead doubled down. The argument was over a poetry book which Jimmy admitted he hadn't even read! Yet he still felt his opinion was so significant that he needed to step in. And a few years ago, John Oliver made a rebuttal to some right-winger asking "where does it stop?" about gay rights or something by saying "it stops somewhere". And Jimmy got pissed because "it was my idea first!" And I'm sure someone thought of it before you, Jimmy... it's not that original of an idea. But he was legit acting like John Oliver had stolen from him. Honestly he is just the epitome of the irritating, self-righteous atheist who acts pretty much the exact same as religious assholes. And now he's doubling down on trying to do political commentary. Back when I was a fan he tried to start a political commentary show and it bombed, I watched a couple of episodes and stopped watching because he just doesn't have a unique perspective or the ability to do real, in-depth analysis. They would get way less views than his other stuff. Yet that's pretty much all he makes nowadays
> The argument was over a poetry book which Jimmy admitted he hadn't even read! Yet he still felt his opinion was so significant that he needed to step in. He really is just like fundie snarkers. Or fundie snarkers imitated him. Who knows?!
Finding out Jimmy Snow sent so many people into the fundie snark world honestly explains so much. He’s the atheist bro you actually have to worry about because he’s got a platform. Many atheist men are misogynistic in that they see religion as being “stupid women stuff” and tend to focus on the silly women in these circles. I could diatribe forever, but yes, this explains the lack of nuance, 8th grad edgelord attitude, and neoliberal feminism.
Which is exactly what Genetically Modified Skeptic meant when he said anti-SJW obsessed atheist communities and fundie snarkers are identical.
And honestly ex Mormon creators in particular tend to be a looooooooot like active Mormons, just on the other side of the aisle. He never got rid of his misogyny and self righteousness and feeling of superiority towards people who have different beliefs, he's just on the other side now. (Obviously not true for every single exmo creator but it's a trend I've noticed)
Thankfully he doesn't have much of a platform anymore, lmao. His videos get less than 10k views on average. But he still did a lot of damage when he did have a platform, I honestly doubt we'd be talking about P&M anymore if it wasn't for him
It's been a while so I could be misremembering, but it strikes me that Jimmy covered these folks without seeming to take them or their beliefs seriously. He could snark on what made their ideas about dating so shit, but it seemed like he didn't really view them as people who were capable of spreading harmful messages, or like he wanted to talk about the ways that fundamentalism as a structure warps our relationship to things like gender and sexuality. I remember watching Jimmy's content when I first stepped into agnosticism and wanted some atheist content, and since I grew up in a red bubble to me, he genuinely seemed more progressive. But then the longer you watched, the more you could see the cracks. I remember the way he talked about sex (if the main sub thinks *Bethany* talks about her sex drive a lot, they should have seen Mr. "My Libido" back in the day) and pushed the idea that *everyone* should have sex prior to commitment and make sure your sex drives align made me *very uncomfortable* as an ace person (as if mixed-orientation relationships can't work). I honestly still have hangups around dating allosexual people because of shit like that. And that's not even starting to get into the things with women or trans people etc.
I remember when he tried to please all the people calling out his acephobia by....hosting an asexual sex worker on his channel. She may have not realized she was being used as a pawn. It came across as Jimmy looking for a way to talk about his libido even more since the conversation was sexual in nature. It would have been interesting if literally anyone else interviewed her, since an asexual sex worker sounds like an oxymoron. But he ruined it.
He definitely does not seem like the person to have that conversation! I could see a different channel using that to talk about things like how broad the ace spectrum is, attraction vs. action, navigating sex for aces who aren't sex-repulsed (all kinds of cool things, and probably a ton I'm not thinking about) but that assumes the person guiding the conversation is doing the research and wants to understand beyond "see they have sex too!"
I was an ace sex worker (well, was a sex worker, still ace) and was surprised but then not surprised how common we are. Basically, we all view sex as a bit of a chore anyway, so might as well get paid for that chore. It's very similar to someone who is, let's say, a manager at work but absolutely hates managing at home. I distinctly remember the moment I decided to do it for money was when I tried to have sex with someone once and I found it soooo dull that I said to myself "you know, this would be less obnoxious if I'd gotten paid". Like, the dude was just so bad and I didn't like it so much I figured I might as well get something from it if people expect it from me anyway. Talking to other workers, a lot of them felt the same. I often forget to count the folk from work when folk ask how many people I slept with because I'm like "oh right, I did sleep with them, I forgot". People expect women to have sex and enjoy sex already. Might as well come out of the ordeal with a few hundred bucks and buy myself something nice or pay my rent while doing it.
I thought about Jimmy for the first time in years the other day and wondered if they were still doing YouTube. I’m just like you.. I found Jimmy right after realizing I was an atheist and was just desperate for a voice.. any voice.. that had been through something similar to me and managed to wind up “progressive”. I wasn’t picky yet because I didn’t know my options. I left quickly too. But one thing that I do also remember (like you) is how often they brought up their sex drive.. not a good or bad thing necessarily, but when combined with the possible stories I heard about them having relationships with fan(s) (I think? Didn’t I hear that?) it was too much.
I have been a fan of Jimmy. I haven’t seen what you’re talking about. That’s really disappointing to hear. Do you have any examples? Specifically of bullying trans men.
Honestly I hope it pans out. It will be interesting to see if all snarkers do follow through and their platform really nosedives.
I think most of Paul and Morgan's viewers are snarkers. It would be interesting to see what happens if the snarkers actually keep to the boycott.
I wholeheartedly believe that snarkers keep Paul and Morgan in business lol
I don't think P&M will ever seriously consider the harm of their views BECAUSE they stay in business by rage-baiting snarkers.
I wonder if the boycott will have the opposite effect, if it will drive snarkers directly to p&m’s content because they can’t see updates here
That is a possibility.
They should also do this with Girl Defined
IIRC there was a mute on Bethany-related posts before … it was sometime in the last couple of years.
Imagining Paul halfway through the month of June slowly realizing their story views have suddenly dropped by thousands and being extremely puzzled is truly beautiful
Boycott them all and stop giving people you hate a platform.
It’s a bit of a paradox in a way though. I speak out against these channels not to drive traffic to them, but because they already have a lot of traffic and I think it’s important for people with dissenting opinions to speak up. The problem with just ignoring people like this is that it doesn’t make fundamentalism go away.
Agree with that. But they often find people with like 1k followers and are part of driving people to those pages. Nadia is a good example. She didn’t have a huge following and isn’t even fundie.
I can see that point. You definitely don’t want to “punch down” (for lack of a better term) to the extent that you’re boosting content that would otherwise fade into oblivion.
The title almost made me think that Paul and Morgan were boycotting the month of June and I was thinking "how exactly are they going to do that?" 😅
I think it's a good idea if people actually follow through with it, I think it's safe to assume most of their views are from snarkers.
The snark community doesn’t exist without snark subjects. More and more, I think snark subjects wouldn’t exist (to the extent they do) without snarkers. They would effectively have to just stop snarking to actually do any “damage” to these subjects. I’m all for it, but seems like a way to continue to pat themselves on the back for being “above” the subjects without actually coming to terms with the fact that they, in large part, help create the monsters that they love/hate so much. It’s a symbiotic relationship imo, and there is no way to actually distance themselves from giving these people a platform and views. I would rather snarkers admit it’s all for snarking and stop bringing politics/righteous causes into it. Like, it’s way more digestible for me to simply snark on these people because they are fun to snark on than to pretend to be some righteous movement taking on the evil fundamentalists.
[удалено]
Yeah, it's kinda just moralized venting.
In all sincerity, I think they would improve their own mental health by not engaging with any of these people. Other snark subreddits constantly push using yewtube to watch videos so as to stop their numbers and harmful reach on big platforms. The best way to make change is to stifle their reach. I know Cody Ko got ahold of Bethy and Kristen content, but that would have been a flash pan, one and done silly video if not for the continued content mill around Girl Defined. The two would probably both be stay at home moms with decent Instagram followings and nothing more at this point if not for snarkers literally purchasing their content and viewing it. Do I think everyone has a right to critique and discuss public content? Yes, if they want to publicly put it out there then they can be publicly critiqued. However, there’s a point where your “hate follow” becomes just a version of ironically liking something.
It would be cool if they could actually do it.
Do Brittany Dawn next.
I've been distancing myself from snark of her because it's obvious she is rage baiting Reddit specifically. I still want to watch the dumpster fire, but the ragebait is just too dumb.
I don't think it will limit much of the views they get on social media (if a snarker is used to checking ig stories, they're not going to stop because of a boycott), but it is already making it obvious how much of a focus P&M have become on the sub. It's wild because P&M have so very little actual influence. And so much of their content which gets shared is just the same thing over and over again and no new angles or insights.
I think it's performative AF. Boycotting for "pride month?" LOL, no, if they cared about pride month there would be no sub because every snark subject would be boycotted year round.
I’m all for it but when Paul finds out I bet his posts become more unhinged.
Are they actually going to stop watching them though? Pressing F to doubt
I think it’ll be interesting if P&M are boycotted. Mostly because they take any attention as good attention for themselves. I legitimately think they follow snark subreddits because it validates that there are people who pay attention to them, even if they aren’t fans. They want to feel needed, even if it’s not a positive need from others. I think boycotting them will make them freak out a little bit because they truly realize they have little to no actual followers.
It doesn’t make any sense or serve any purpose. They say it’s for pride. In what way is this supporting pride?