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He has access to far better doctors and healthcare than the vast majority of individuals. That's no guarantee of health, but he's still kicking at 75 and I see no reason that won't continue.
Healthcare is healthcare... you can bankrupt yourself paying more for the gilded amenities American hospitals offer. But the latest in medicine is available to everyone if you live elsewhere there's no pay wall, and is paid for entirely by the government..
Anyone could die tomorrow. I see no reason to obsess over the man's age and weight. If he dies, he dies. We can't control the future. But I'll put my money on him having far better doctors than you or me.
Yeah anyone could certainly, but being old and fat is a HUGE indicator of an early death. Celebrities die from drug overdoses too even with far better doctors than you or me. Doctors aren’t the end all be all for health. Your day to day care for yourself has a bigger effect on your longevity than what the doctor does for you on a once every 6 months basis.
There is no “laugh”. Tolkien finished his series and it’s much more detailed than Martin’s. This hack can’t even finish a book that he’s been working on for over a decade. Tolkien himself began writing in ‘37 and then went back and revised all of it in ‘49 after he enlisted in World War 2. He didn’t sit on his ass like a scared child for well over a decade.
The difference is that Unfinished Tales is only a thing because Tolkien finished multiple epics worth of storytelling. Complete narratives. He also had multiple stand alone stories. Something like 20 total books in the Legendarium. Unfinished Tales are the side stories and sequels he didnt finish, as well as earlier textual edits. Most of Unfinished Tales aren't even unreleased stories and are instead commentary on the development of them over time.
GRRM hasn't completed his primary narrative epic. A GRRM version of Unfinished Tales would be the equivalent of taking all the drafts and unreleased notes and ideas of GRRM from all of his currently released novels and discussing them. Some of them will have stories that were cut. Doesn't change the fact we don't know how he ends his story (outside of the TV adaptation's preview).
He's also 75 dude, I wonder how your work ethic will be at that age. Do you think people will be criticizing you for not doing things 0.0001% of people can do?
Bruh, he purposely takes on more and more than he could handle. How many projects has he been involved in since GOT ended, even the ones that never got green lighted.
His age isn't a factor in the way you're using it as an excuse.
The fact of the matter is that he doesn’t owe you or anyone else anything. If he wants to take forever he can take forever. If he wants to stop he can stop. Be grateful for what he’s given instead of angry about what he hasn’t.
>The fact of the matter is that he doesn’t owe you or anyone else anything.
Bruh, I got no skin in the game either way with his books.....read my comment again. Guy I responded too was using his age as a reason for not getting it done and I pointed out his involvement in a myriad of other projects would say otherwise.
Instead of being angry, try reading.
he's writing more of a political drama than a fantasy tho, tolkien wrote a fantasy story from top to bottom and managed to be taken seriously in a period when fantasy was nothing but children's stories.
No doubt that Tolkien was a beast, there's no denying his brilliance. But it should be remembered by people here just how much work GRRM has already done. People like to solely criticize and be negative but I appreciate what GRRM has done already greatly.
He didn’t. When Tolkien died he left a vast collection of drafts and notes that his son Christopher edited into books. Please see this complete [list](https://www.tolkiensociety.org/author/books-by-tolkien/) of his works.
I dont think that's foolish, I think that's 99% what must be happening (or if not *writing* it, plotting out in line with WoW)
The *foolish* part is any of us expecting it to ever be finished.
I bet he already has. All the complaining he does makes me fully believe he's done with the series and just doesn't want to deal with anyone's opinion on what happens. We'll read it as soon as he dies and/or can't read mean comments anymore
This quote is not new, in fact I think I saw this quote by the time the first season came out, so It's not like he has been running around aaying these things instead of finishing the book
My wife and I have been convinced for years that he’s already finished the last two books and is just going to have them published after he dies. After the reaction to the ending of the show he decided he couldn’t take such a negative reaction to something that is probably closer to his plans than a lot of book-readers are willing to admit. I know he has publicly denied this idea… but why wouldn’t he? If he dies then he won’t have to care about being a liar anymore.
IDK. I'm weird. I've always wanted to know what happens after the epic stories. Does the fellowship have to deal with heavy PTSD? Does Samwise die of a heart attack from stress eating? And what *is* Aragorn's tax policy? He has to rebuild the kingdom, how we going to afford it?
Aragorn you just helped vanquish the world of its most dark and evil force, and reclaimed your long lost birthright to become king of all men, what are you gonna do next!?!
*I will do as queens do. I will rule...*
But kind of ancillary and boring. Like the main series is done, he just left a vague description of the future. George hasn’t even done the first part, and if he did is he going to say “King Bran was big on import taxes from bravos.” No. Thats boring and no one cares lol
Well yeah. Martin isn't condemning Tolkien here. He's pointing out exactly that, that these kinds of details aren't what interested Tolkien. But they are interesting to Martin, so when he set off to write his own epic fantasy he wanted to talk about those kinds of details. He's not saying that his approach is better, he's just pointing out the differences in their writing styles.
Fair enough, but isn't Martin's quote taken out of context then? At first read it feels like he is condemning Tolkien because he didn't bother with these details, not that Martin is pointing out differences in writing style. I've met this quote in the past and it always felt to me that Martin is pointing this out as something LotR lacks and takes away from the value of the trilogy.
Yes. People love to take this quote out of context so that they can start pointless flame-wars between GOT fans and Tolkien fans.
Martin loves LOTR. He's long been on the record about that.
Everyone in the thread, as usual, pissed and not reading the context. So frustrating literally anything is met with “finish book”.
He’s not knocking on Tolkien, but he’s talking about the difference in their focuses. Tolkien has pages and pages of history of great kings, but you’ll never read about what type of men they were, their policies, the evil they did to uphold the good, etc.
That’s what George loves. Fire and Blood is very different from the say the Silmarillion. In F&B his focus, as always, is on characters in confilict, what these great/awful rulers were as PEOPLE as seen through the error prone annals of history.
I’d guarantee Tolkien would disagree with a lot of ASOIAF, he’d hate the moral ambiguity and over the top violence. There’s nothing wrong with that, two different writers with different styles, but both legends and love both their works
I mean, Tolkien left an extensive collection of unfinished works that were edited into books by his son, so I don’t know how accurate it is to say his goal was finishing books.
While also detailing multiple languages and a detailed history and genealogy of multiple kingdoms that fell centuries before The Lord of the Rings books lol.
Dude was all about those extraneous details. He just didn't put them all in the books. A lot fo what we know about LOTR now comes from unpublished notes and Tolkien scholarship.
I don't think its unreasonable for him to assume that orcs reproduce like every other species in Middle Earth.
In fact, the question of what would be done about the orcs, whether they were inherently evil, their origins, etc. was [something that Tolkien went back and forth on](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien%27s_moral_dilemma). As a devout Catholic, Tolkien was uncomfortable with the idea of a wholly irredeemable sentient species. Its something that he, and people who study his work, have been discussing for decades. Martin absolutely did not pull it out of thin air.
You should really do like five minutes of research on these things before you spout off with total confidence.
He did not overlook this.
It's in the simaerillion that orcs have babies.
Wild to go after after someone for getting a fact wrong without even looking it up, but I guess fans are more interested in hating GRRM than actually having a conversation.
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/28173/where-do-orc-babies-come-from/28177#28177
I know uruk'hai spawn out fully grown, is the same true of orcs?
Edit: Orcs have babies it's in the simaerillion https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/28173/where-do-orc-babies-come-from/28177#28177
Getting the feeling all these people criticizing GRRM for not knowing about orcs don't even know what orcs are.
Here is a quote from the simaerillion: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/28173/where-do-orc-babies-come-from/28177#28177
Some of the Avari (the Elves that awoke in Middle-earth) were twisted into the first Orcs by Morgoth sometime in the First Age. Uruk-hai were spawns of Men and Goblin crossbreeding.
Which means they also don’t repopulate on their own. You can section off their areas and let them die out killing each other and of age (if they die of age).
Or exterminate them. Good training for the new recruits.
Yeah like, I get what he means and he’s right, but it’s tough to end a story while answering all those questions. Right now, it doesn’t look like George has those answers either.
I don't read this as a criticism of Tolkien's works, it's more about providing a context for Martin's own writing. He chose to look at what happens after the big heroes come in and change the world, Roberts Rebellion happened and now he's had to govern, it didn't go great. Tolkien wrote the Big Exciting Thing is Happening, Martin's story is And Now What? No Fix is Forever
(This is in reference to the trilogy specifically, of course Tolkien has written about many time periods and effects of changes in leadership in Middle Earth over a massive span of years)
I do wonder, if you could combine Tolkien's writing prowess, but with GRRM's focus on the 'Now What?' aspect of a story, would he have the same trouble finishing his story?
I (and I'm sure many others) have read series where they start incredibly strong, but completely unravel by the end because the author either got lost in the details or rushed it for one reason or another (the King killer chronicles and Ravens Shadow come to mind).
Despite the wait I still don't really hate GRRM for not finishing it yet, the show proved that a good story with a bad ending is a fate worse than death. It's a huge burden to bear
Tolkien only wrote one book that takes place over any short enough period to go into detail about that sort of stuff, and it's not centred around Court politics it's mainly about the quest and characters travelling around. Also Aragorn's reign occurs after the events of that book. It would be weird if he shoehorned a bunch of economic policies in at the very end of the book. The rest of his work spans thousands of years and only briefly mentions Kings reigns.
In comparison GRRMs books span a shorter time period are centred in Kings Landing and about the politics and policies of the Crown.
It would be hilarious if instead of scouting of the shire, Tolkien just went into extreme detail about the trade between Gondor and the surrounding lands. Including exchange rates of Dwarven currency and The Shire with Kingdoms of man.
Would have to ask the Tolkien family, but since orcs were originally corrupted elves. I would assume they probably reproduce like elves. I don't recall seeing baby elves, but we know they reproduce. Just my thoughts
Fire and Blood is a 700 page book of a writer that is clearly not an Economist write as if he is. My biggest criticism of the book is that both being a history book battles are written as “and then an army of this amount died and another raised of this much” and his tax policies are written as “tax tax” and it’s just kinda accepted they can tax anything they want. No mention of tax collectors, reasons for taxing specific things beyond we need money. He dedicated a large portion of the book about Jaherys(however you spell it) reign and frankly it was boring. It’s just them going around the kingdom waving and taxing and the good reign was good because he wrote it was good. Sometimes overdeveloping and overthinking about the finer details is not important. What about math, do we know if people count the same when it comes to fair and accurate taxation. When you talk about Sci-fi ships you can write about the type of fuel that is used but you don’t go on a tangent about the oil drilling techniques or the specific screws needed to assemble the large industrial hammers used to nail in the point I’m trying to make.
Well, the problems in Middle Earth seemed to be mainly ones of political instability. And we basically know how he built his coalition. So yes, he was a good king.
Aragorn ruled the Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor until year 120 of the Fourth Age. His reign was marked by great harmony and prosperity within Gondor and Arnor and by a renewal of communication and cooperation between Men, Elves, and Dwarves, fostered by his vigorous rebuilding campaign following the war. Aragorn led the forces of the Reunited Kingdom on military campaigns against some Easterlings and Haradrim, re-establishing rule over much territory that Gondor had lost in previous centuries. He died at the age of 210, after 122.
People who lead nations with wisdom and compassion to the point where there is no conflict don’t make interesting stories so for the sake of story telling it doesn’t matter. A leader with no flaws is more outlandish than orcs and dragons so leaving it short like that is for the best.
Stfu with that shit..... It's a fucking fantasy A ten year crippled boy who ended up as king because "magic" is even more unrealistic
Aragorn is is above 100 year old and a man who travel the world experienced and mature than all the targaryen kings..
Tolkien didn't wanted to write a political epic or the talk about duality of human nature ... But the triumph of good over absolute evil
Tolkien himself Saw the worst of humanity in the battle of la somme in the most useless war in modern time . Asoaif isn't the type of story he want to write..... But he CAN if he wanted the simmarillion prove it
GRRM isn't shit compare to tolkien
To me, that quote is a perfect example of why GRRM is the best author in the genre. His world feels real. It has a deep, rich, complex history that is relayed to you in an organic way that is rarely boring. I've never read another series where the history is so interesting to the point that I've bought two books that are essentially encyclopedias about that world. I don't think there's another author whose world I would be interested enough in to do that.
To be fair, Tolkien at least finished his story 😅
I still agree to an extent, though. What I love about GoT is seeing the consequences of actions made by those in power, seeing the weight of those decisions, and how many factors a ruler must consider.
>Hey, uh, all you people reflexively shouting "finish the books" you do realize that this quote is ~a decade old, right?
...and he STILL hasnt finished a book since then.
Edit: lol
So what? Do we just screech "FINISH THE BOOKS" at any thread that mentions Martin? People could just, like, not do that. Its not like he's lurking in these threads.
From the guy who writes paragraphs about food served at feasts. But yeah, Tolkien focusing on his main storyline and plot totally isn’t *descriptive enough*.
No offense against him, but whats so special about this quote? yes he doesnt ask these questions, so what? It is just a different direction obviously. Harry Potter also fails to explain a lot…so what? This quote is useless without context, what am i supposed to agree or disagree to? That he doesnt ask the questions? yes sure i doubt anyone would disagree with that
This thread is full of “you haven’t finished, shut up.”
Where I thinks he’s pointing out different writing styles. George likes to give us the nitty gritty, he likes writing about the taxation policies and the good/evil people have committed. It’s just as valid to write it as not.
LOTR isnt about Aragorn, its about Frodo, it's *his* story. It's literally written by Frodo and Sam, Tolkien only 'translated it'. Why the hell would it talk about Aragorn's reign? Its not part of Frodo's story. He wasn't there for any of it.
Martins clearly not a fan of LOTR lol- First of all, there are no orc babies, orcs are all elves whove fallen prey to the ifluence of Sauron as he did Morgoth. Tolkein didnt believe anyone was born bad and beyond redemption, theres no evil race, and basically... that the world is worth saving.
Ultimately theyre just different stories, and theres enough room for both kinds. Lord Of The Rings shows us how the world should be: People from all different walks of rising up against tryanny and cruelty for the preservation of freedom and compassion, people of unremarkable background defying what the world expects of them, and people of storied lineage accepting the responsibility that comes with their inherited station in life.
ASOIAF is how the world usually really is- Most people that even have the ability to male it into a station of power are selfish cruel and live only to feel above others, smd anyone who tried to do good with their station in life either is ousted from power or corrupted by it, and anyone without the leg up from birth has almost no chance to get to a position of power. Both are stories worth telling.
I think that Tolkien finished his series and that George should focus more on finishing his wonderful masterpiece for the fans instead of criticizing others.
I feel like most the comments here are reacting to this comment as if it were some harsh criticisms, but I promise you in context it’s not. George isn’t describing why he’s better that Tolkien, he’s just describing how his work is different from Tolkien’s. It’s not a condemnation at all.
Tolkien did answer a lot of this stuff, though. Maybe not super specific, but for example it’s noted Aragorn gave the orcs the areas around the Sea of Rhun to live and made them swear oaths not to take up arms again, etc.
Thats like comparing a peewee football kicker to an NFL quarterback. Tolkien was Cohesive entertaining and philosophical. GRRM is just a dirty old man.
Tolkein wasn't telling that type of story. It's like complaining the hungry catepillar doesn't talk about politics, it's not that type of book.
Regardless, aragorn inherits a kingdom after it just won a war and suddenly has all this jew land to expand into, expansion makes a booming economy, its actually not that crazy that long lived aragorn, public savour of the world would preside over a very strong kingdom. The closest nation is roman and they're staunch allies that wont be forgotten soon, yet there are still threats in corsairs from the South and haradrim from the east. Now neither of these threats are enough to threaten a untied gondor and roman, but they are big enough to keep the men of the west united and not squabbling over borders. Nevermind there will still be some orcs running about.
Aragorn ruling for 100 years peacefully (relativly) and prosperous is actually quite believable.
This isn’t really an agree vs disagree thing, imo. It’s two different approaches to storytelling, by two authors who are focused on different things in their narratives. No right or wrong, just preferences for writers and readers.
If you write something like that, it needs to be relevant to the story. I haven't read the books myself, so I can't say whether he has a good point or not, but since Lord of the Rings itself is about destroying the ring, it probably isn't relevant. If there's a Middle-Earth book that focuses on Aragorn's reign, then it becomes relevant.
With ASOIAF, Martin points out that characters have their good and bad points. Tywin's political achievements are important because they demonstrate the character he is and the role he plays in Westeros. Ned believes in loyalty to the king and that all the power is his, but we know that this is a very naive way to look at it.
You want a world with depth, but you don't want to add irrelevant or unnecessary detail. That's why we don't know how the exact length of Cersei's hair or what her fingerprints look like. Some things don't belong in the story.
This guy is so pretentious. He also goes out of his way to say how Tolkien is one of his favorite writers and then does shit like this in every interview. “There’s no good and evil, it’s gray”….”Gandalf should have stayed dead”…”what was Aragorn like as a king”. I get it dude, but that’s not what his story is about. Smh.
This is a weird take. You can like something- love something-and still criticize parts you might not like. Being a fan doesn't mean blindly supporting every part.
I agree that these would be nice things to talk about and all of it could be summarized with a 2 page blurb at the end or be excluded altogether and discussed in an interview.
I certainly wouldn't delay publishing a book for a decade over details 99% of readers don't care about.
I don't see these two writers are rivals, more like people with different writing styles when it comes to fantasy. Both have stuff in their own books that the other would not have covered
Peace never lasts, and real world stories of that scale never have a happy ending, not in the fairytale sense.
I think it was the game series Gears of War, although I could be misremembering, but I remember people being disappointed when one of the sequels came out that it was set 25 years after the last game and they were already back at war when the last game ended with the war won for the good guys. That's reality, though. Centuries of utter peace are pure fantasy.
He’s shitting on an author that made a whole universe as a bedtime story for his kids, when he relies on violence and real wars for his ideas and can’t even finish his series. Know your place, fr.
Overthinking to the max. Those things aren’t relevant to the story being told in the book. Adding that the reign went on for x amount of years is a little aside piece to inform the reader that there was more stories to tell, in the same way everyone has their own stories through their life. If I was telling a story about something that happened to me when I was 19, I’d find it strange if that person I told the story to started asking about a completely different and unrelated set of events that happened when I was 31.
No wonder he hasn’t finished GOT yet, he’s to preoccupied with what Jon snow ate for breakfast after he lost his virginity.
I’ll consider Martin’s opinion of a legendary author (who shaped fantasy as we know it) that he heavily borrowed from when he finishes his fucking source material. Even Dawn was a direct ripoff of a sword from the Silmarillion.
I know this quote is taken out of context, but also, Epic Rap Battles of History already gave us this fight.
"The genre's called fantasy, you myopic manatee."
Don’t know if it was intended as criticism, but in any case, it doesn’t have to be read that way. This is just one example of the literary dichotomy between romanticism and realism. Even in fantasy that spectrum exists.
Well, he's technically correct, but also at the same time, who gives a fuck? We judge works on their own merits, Tolkien wasn't a tax policy guy. Also he knew how to finish his *magnus opus*, so maybe chuck fewer stones through your glass walls there fat boy.
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Shut up and write the last book.
Tolkien finished. Simple as that
But GRRM is still alive, so he got the last laugh.
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I mean, the dude is only 75 and he's rich as fuck. He could easily live to be 100.
If he was in good shape maybe
He has access to far better doctors and healthcare than the vast majority of individuals. That's no guarantee of health, but he's still kicking at 75 and I see no reason that won't continue.
It seems lately rich actors have been dying around 65 than by 90, those doctors ain’t helping too much
Even the best doctors cannot save you sometimes
Healthcare is healthcare... you can bankrupt yourself paying more for the gilded amenities American hospitals offer. But the latest in medicine is available to everyone if you live elsewhere there's no pay wall, and is paid for entirely by the government..
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But if he does, will he be able to write until he's 100?
He's barely writing now.
He could live to 300 and never finish it.
Operative word here is *could*. He’s a big boy, and old age + obesity is not a good combination
Anyone could die tomorrow. I see no reason to obsess over the man's age and weight. If he dies, he dies. We can't control the future. But I'll put my money on him having far better doctors than you or me.
Yeah anyone could certainly, but being old and fat is a HUGE indicator of an early death. Celebrities die from drug overdoses too even with far better doctors than you or me. Doctors aren’t the end all be all for health. Your day to day care for yourself has a bigger effect on your longevity than what the doctor does for you on a once every 6 months basis.
Obese people simply don't live that long
Money doesn't buy life span necessarily. If your unhealthy and have issues can still die
😂
There is no “laugh”. Tolkien finished his series and it’s much more detailed than Martin’s. This hack can’t even finish a book that he’s been working on for over a decade. Tolkien himself began writing in ‘37 and then went back and revised all of it in ‘49 after he enlisted in World War 2. He didn’t sit on his ass like a scared child for well over a decade.
They literally have a Tolkien book called Unfinished Tales.
The difference is that Unfinished Tales is only a thing because Tolkien finished multiple epics worth of storytelling. Complete narratives. He also had multiple stand alone stories. Something like 20 total books in the Legendarium. Unfinished Tales are the side stories and sequels he didnt finish, as well as earlier textual edits. Most of Unfinished Tales aren't even unreleased stories and are instead commentary on the development of them over time. GRRM hasn't completed his primary narrative epic. A GRRM version of Unfinished Tales would be the equivalent of taking all the drafts and unreleased notes and ideas of GRRM from all of his currently released novels and discussing them. Some of them will have stories that were cut. Doesn't change the fact we don't know how he ends his story (outside of the TV adaptation's preview).
GRRM wrote by far more than Tolkien though. His mistake was having too much ambition for his story than one person can possibly achieve.
He hasn’t published a book in over a decade. It’s not lack of ambition, he’s just not doing it.
He's also 75 dude, I wonder how your work ethic will be at that age. Do you think people will be criticizing you for not doing things 0.0001% of people can do?
Bruh, he purposely takes on more and more than he could handle. How many projects has he been involved in since GOT ended, even the ones that never got green lighted. His age isn't a factor in the way you're using it as an excuse.
The fact of the matter is that he doesn’t owe you or anyone else anything. If he wants to take forever he can take forever. If he wants to stop he can stop. Be grateful for what he’s given instead of angry about what he hasn’t.
>The fact of the matter is that he doesn’t owe you or anyone else anything. Bruh, I got no skin in the game either way with his books.....read my comment again. Guy I responded too was using his age as a reason for not getting it done and I pointed out his involvement in a myriad of other projects would say otherwise. Instead of being angry, try reading.
That’s fine but he also should stop throwing stones at others.
His last book was printed in 2011, was he 75 then? And in terms of work ethic, he has no problem criticizing others.
he's writing more of a political drama than a fantasy tho, tolkien wrote a fantasy story from top to bottom and managed to be taken seriously in a period when fantasy was nothing but children's stories.
No doubt that Tolkien was a beast, there's no denying his brilliance. But it should be remembered by people here just how much work GRRM has already done. People like to solely criticize and be negative but I appreciate what GRRM has done already greatly.
He didn’t. When Tolkien died he left a vast collection of drafts and notes that his son Christopher edited into books. Please see this complete [list](https://www.tolkiensociety.org/author/books-by-tolkien/) of his works.
Checkmate
He didn't though?
Tolkien’s son wrote many of the books within his mythology
Did he tho? He still had plenty of ideas and he died before he could reorganize all the lore how he wanted, no?
He hasn’t even published the second to last book. Let alone start on the last. Officially anyhow.
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My foolish hope against hope is that he is writing them both concurrently, and that’s why it’s taking so damn long.
I dont think that's foolish, I think that's 99% what must be happening (or if not *writing* it, plotting out in line with WoW) The *foolish* part is any of us expecting it to ever be finished.
It's this kind of comment that hurts George's feelings! (wah)
I bet he already has. All the complaining he does makes me fully believe he's done with the series and just doesn't want to deal with anyone's opinion on what happens. We'll read it as soon as he dies and/or can't read mean comments anymore
This quote is like 20 years old
This was a joke
LOL
Second to last book. Sorry.
This quote is not new, in fact I think I saw this quote by the time the first season came out, so It's not like he has been running around aaying these things instead of finishing the book
Yeah - this after he says that antifans have ruined his fandom?
My wife and I have been convinced for years that he’s already finished the last two books and is just going to have them published after he dies. After the reaction to the ending of the show he decided he couldn’t take such a negative reaction to something that is probably closer to his plans than a lot of book-readers are willing to admit. I know he has publicly denied this idea… but why wouldn’t he? If he dies then he won’t have to care about being a liar anymore.
Idk George let me know when you surpass him in sales or popularity; or actually read the books.
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IDK. I'm weird. I've always wanted to know what happens after the epic stories. Does the fellowship have to deal with heavy PTSD? Does Samwise die of a heart attack from stress eating? And what *is* Aragorn's tax policy? He has to rebuild the kingdom, how we going to afford it?
I always feel Sam has the most wholesome life ahead of him out of the fellowship. You just know he'd be an awesome father.
If you had actually read the books you would know that Sam lives a full and happy life then follows Frodo into the Undying Lands.
Aragorn you just helped vanquish the world of its most dark and evil force, and reclaimed your long lost birthright to become king of all men, what are you gonna do next!?! *I will do as queens do. I will rule...*
George has 100% read Tolkien. That’s where he got the RR
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But kind of ancillary and boring. Like the main series is done, he just left a vague description of the future. George hasn’t even done the first part, and if he did is he going to say “King Bran was big on import taxes from bravos.” No. Thats boring and no one cares lol
He’s got a point, Tolkien was famously light on extraneous details. Edit: Yes, I KNOW. I didn’t think the /s was necessary. Ye gods, people.
Because those are not the point of his books, maybe?
That's exactly what "extraneous" means...
Well yeah. Martin isn't condemning Tolkien here. He's pointing out exactly that, that these kinds of details aren't what interested Tolkien. But they are interesting to Martin, so when he set off to write his own epic fantasy he wanted to talk about those kinds of details. He's not saying that his approach is better, he's just pointing out the differences in their writing styles.
Fair enough, but isn't Martin's quote taken out of context then? At first read it feels like he is condemning Tolkien because he didn't bother with these details, not that Martin is pointing out differences in writing style. I've met this quote in the past and it always felt to me that Martin is pointing this out as something LotR lacks and takes away from the value of the trilogy.
Yes. People love to take this quote out of context so that they can start pointless flame-wars between GOT fans and Tolkien fans. Martin loves LOTR. He's long been on the record about that.
Everyone in the thread, as usual, pissed and not reading the context. So frustrating literally anything is met with “finish book”. He’s not knocking on Tolkien, but he’s talking about the difference in their focuses. Tolkien has pages and pages of history of great kings, but you’ll never read about what type of men they were, their policies, the evil they did to uphold the good, etc. That’s what George loves. Fire and Blood is very different from the say the Silmarillion. In F&B his focus, as always, is on characters in confilict, what these great/awful rulers were as PEOPLE as seen through the error prone annals of history. I’d guarantee Tolkien would disagree with a lot of ASOIAF, he’d hate the moral ambiguity and over the top violence. There’s nothing wrong with that, two different writers with different styles, but both legends and love both their works
Yeah, the difference between GRRM’s focus and Tolkien’s focus, was that the latter’s was finish book.
Hilarious bro, you really added to the conversation thanks for that. Truly insightful
My pleasure honestly!!
I mean, Tolkien left an extensive collection of unfinished works that were edited into books by his son, so I don’t know how accurate it is to say his goal was finishing books.
No he wasn't, he is infamous for his excessive purple prose.
While also detailing multiple languages and a detailed history and genealogy of multiple kingdoms that fell centuries before The Lord of the Rings books lol. Dude was all about those extraneous details. He just didn't put them all in the books. A lot fo what we know about LOTR now comes from unpublished notes and Tolkien scholarship.
Orcs aren’t babies, they spawn out fully grown
It's amazing to me he overlooked this.
Because its a detail from the movies. Its not mentioned in the books.
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Huh? Dude's literally talking about things that Tolkien wrote. Stuff from the movies is totally irrelevant to that discussion.
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I don't think its unreasonable for him to assume that orcs reproduce like every other species in Middle Earth. In fact, the question of what would be done about the orcs, whether they were inherently evil, their origins, etc. was [something that Tolkien went back and forth on](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien%27s_moral_dilemma). As a devout Catholic, Tolkien was uncomfortable with the idea of a wholly irredeemable sentient species. Its something that he, and people who study his work, have been discussing for decades. Martin absolutely did not pull it out of thin air. You should really do like five minutes of research on these things before you spout off with total confidence.
He did not overlook this. It's in the simaerillion that orcs have babies. Wild to go after after someone for getting a fact wrong without even looking it up, but I guess fans are more interested in hating GRRM than actually having a conversation. https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/28173/where-do-orc-babies-come-from/28177#28177
Nerd
I know uruk'hai spawn out fully grown, is the same true of orcs? Edit: Orcs have babies it's in the simaerillion https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/28173/where-do-orc-babies-come-from/28177#28177
Not an expert in Tolkien Lore here, but last I recall orcs were corrupted elves so yeah? Probably?
Getting the feeling all these people criticizing GRRM for not knowing about orcs don't even know what orcs are. Here is a quote from the simaerillion: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/28173/where-do-orc-babies-come-from/28177#28177
Some of the Avari (the Elves that awoke in Middle-earth) were twisted into the first Orcs by Morgoth sometime in the First Age. Uruk-hai were spawns of Men and Goblin crossbreeding.
Which means they also don’t repopulate on their own. You can section off their areas and let them die out killing each other and of age (if they die of age). Or exterminate them. Good training for the new recruits.
You’re thinking of the Uruk-hai, not the orcs. And that was also only shown in the movies.
Totally fair but George you have to actually ya know get to that point in your story then lol.
Yeah like, I get what he means and he’s right, but it’s tough to end a story while answering all those questions. Right now, it doesn’t look like George has those answers either.
I sometimes think George likes the idea of ending the books more than actually writing the ending.
I don't read this as a criticism of Tolkien's works, it's more about providing a context for Martin's own writing. He chose to look at what happens after the big heroes come in and change the world, Roberts Rebellion happened and now he's had to govern, it didn't go great. Tolkien wrote the Big Exciting Thing is Happening, Martin's story is And Now What? No Fix is Forever (This is in reference to the trilogy specifically, of course Tolkien has written about many time periods and effects of changes in leadership in Middle Earth over a massive span of years)
I do wonder, if you could combine Tolkien's writing prowess, but with GRRM's focus on the 'Now What?' aspect of a story, would he have the same trouble finishing his story? I (and I'm sure many others) have read series where they start incredibly strong, but completely unravel by the end because the author either got lost in the details or rushed it for one reason or another (the King killer chronicles and Ravens Shadow come to mind). Despite the wait I still don't really hate GRRM for not finishing it yet, the show proved that a good story with a bad ending is a fate worse than death. It's a huge burden to bear
You can ask these questions and more when you COMPLETE YOUR OWN SERIES YOU OLD FOOL
This quote is years old, maybe a decade old
As so he was only half way through the book we are still waiting on
And hasn’t it been over a decade since he released his last book?
Yeah, and what I said was equally valid then. We're waiting on the SAME BOOK. lol
Tolkien only wrote one book that takes place over any short enough period to go into detail about that sort of stuff, and it's not centred around Court politics it's mainly about the quest and characters travelling around. Also Aragorn's reign occurs after the events of that book. It would be weird if he shoehorned a bunch of economic policies in at the very end of the book. The rest of his work spans thousands of years and only briefly mentions Kings reigns. In comparison GRRMs books span a shorter time period are centred in Kings Landing and about the politics and policies of the Crown.
It would be hilarious if instead of scouting of the shire, Tolkien just went into extreme detail about the trade between Gondor and the surrounding lands. Including exchange rates of Dwarven currency and The Shire with Kingdoms of man.
“What was aragorn’s tax policy” has become a pretty big meme
There's no "baby orc", we saw that Saruman are growing them in an "artificial womb"...
Granted those were Uruk’hai, but I believe the process is very similar with regular orcs
Would have to ask the Tolkien family, but since orcs were originally corrupted elves. I would assume they probably reproduce like elves. I don't recall seeing baby elves, but we know they reproduce. Just my thoughts
Just gonna drop this here https://youtu.be/XAAp_luluo0?si=Mk8OOpjgWjcARAcL
“You even stole my R.R.” Goddamn lmfao
At least Tolkien finished the series
Tolkien finished. You can ask questions when you’re finished as well. Chop chop
Tell me you didn't read the book without telling me you didn't read the book
Imagine finding out that GRRM hasn't read LOTR
Fire and Blood is a 700 page book of a writer that is clearly not an Economist write as if he is. My biggest criticism of the book is that both being a history book battles are written as “and then an army of this amount died and another raised of this much” and his tax policies are written as “tax tax” and it’s just kinda accepted they can tax anything they want. No mention of tax collectors, reasons for taxing specific things beyond we need money. He dedicated a large portion of the book about Jaherys(however you spell it) reign and frankly it was boring. It’s just them going around the kingdom waving and taxing and the good reign was good because he wrote it was good. Sometimes overdeveloping and overthinking about the finer details is not important. What about math, do we know if people count the same when it comes to fair and accurate taxation. When you talk about Sci-fi ships you can write about the type of fuel that is used but you don’t go on a tangent about the oil drilling techniques or the specific screws needed to assemble the large industrial hammers used to nail in the point I’m trying to make.
The dude is just talking to hear himself talk.
Well, the problems in Middle Earth seemed to be mainly ones of political instability. And we basically know how he built his coalition. So yes, he was a good king.
Aragorn ruled the Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor until year 120 of the Fourth Age. His reign was marked by great harmony and prosperity within Gondor and Arnor and by a renewal of communication and cooperation between Men, Elves, and Dwarves, fostered by his vigorous rebuilding campaign following the war. Aragorn led the forces of the Reunited Kingdom on military campaigns against some Easterlings and Haradrim, re-establishing rule over much territory that Gondor had lost in previous centuries. He died at the age of 210, after 122.
For someone who didn't finish his flagship series, you're in no position to make insinuations about successful authors.
You heard of Goblin Slayer. Now you get Aragorn, the Orc Slayer.
People who lead nations with wisdom and compassion to the point where there is no conflict don’t make interesting stories so for the sake of story telling it doesn’t matter. A leader with no flaws is more outlandish than orcs and dragons so leaving it short like that is for the best.
Stfu with that shit..... It's a fucking fantasy A ten year crippled boy who ended up as king because "magic" is even more unrealistic Aragorn is is above 100 year old and a man who travel the world experienced and mature than all the targaryen kings.. Tolkien didn't wanted to write a political epic or the talk about duality of human nature ... But the triumph of good over absolute evil Tolkien himself Saw the worst of humanity in the battle of la somme in the most useless war in modern time . Asoaif isn't the type of story he want to write..... But he CAN if he wanted the simmarillion prove it GRRM isn't shit compare to tolkien
TOLKEIN finished his series and wrote an entire history for it *and* created an entire language for all of it. Finish your damn story.
What he’s saying functions as a point of comparison between his style of fantasy vs Tolkien, but isn’t a cogent criticism of Tolkien in any way.
This is why i fell in love with George's books to begin with
Tolkien finished his series so I don’t want to hear a word out of GRRM’s mouth until he does the same especially against the greatest fantasy writer
To me, that quote is a perfect example of why GRRM is the best author in the genre. His world feels real. It has a deep, rich, complex history that is relayed to you in an organic way that is rarely boring. I've never read another series where the history is so interesting to the point that I've bought two books that are essentially encyclopedias about that world. I don't think there's another author whose world I would be interested enough in to do that.
To be fair, Tolkien at least finished his story 😅 I still agree to an extent, though. What I love about GoT is seeing the consequences of actions made by those in power, seeing the weight of those decisions, and how many factors a ruler must consider.
Hey, uh, all you people reflexively shouting "finish the books" you do realize that this quote is \~a decade old, right?
>Hey, uh, all you people reflexively shouting "finish the books" you do realize that this quote is ~a decade old, right? ...and he STILL hasnt finished a book since then. Edit: lol
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So what? Do we just screech "FINISH THE BOOKS" at any thread that mentions Martin? People could just, like, not do that. Its not like he's lurking in these threads.
Stfu and keep writing!
Well considering there are no baby orcs…. They are birthed fully grown aren’t they?
Thinking Tolkien was too light on detail is certainly *a* criticism
Aragon probably finished a book in those 100 years
I think GRRM can fuck right off until he finishes ASOIAF (which he never will).
Agree or disagree with what? He's pointing out facts, you can't agree or disagree with a fact
Well the fact is he hasn’t delivered TWOW in nearly 13 years. Can’t disagree with that.
Pretty sure this was during Stephen Colbert interview, this wasn’t serious.
This is what he is doing instead of writing, asking himself questions about books written by others
The only thing that I have wondered was how much diapers the elves have had to gone till the baby was old enough to no longer use it.
Do I agree with what OP? There is nothing to agree or disagree here, do I disagree with the question george is making?
At this point I think Mr. Martin is trolling all of you and you're all falling for it...
From the guy who writes paragraphs about food served at feasts. But yeah, Tolkien focusing on his main storyline and plot totally isn’t *descriptive enough*.
Well, at least neither of them resorted to dick jokes and character destruction because they ran out of material.
Lol at this sub being a safe space for defending bad TV and trashing the guy who was the reason the show was ever good
Fatboy needs to write the book and stop waiting to die
Lotta words for a guy who’s been keeping his audience waiting for ~13 years.
GRRM can stfu and write some MF books. Quit worrying about an author who isn’t continuing to ruin my childhood/adulthood. For crying out loud 🤦🏼♀️
No offense against him, but whats so special about this quote? yes he doesnt ask these questions, so what? It is just a different direction obviously. Harry Potter also fails to explain a lot…so what? This quote is useless without context, what am i supposed to agree or disagree to? That he doesnt ask the questions? yes sure i doubt anyone would disagree with that
This thread is full of “you haven’t finished, shut up.” Where I thinks he’s pointing out different writing styles. George likes to give us the nitty gritty, he likes writing about the taxation policies and the good/evil people have committed. It’s just as valid to write it as not.
LOTR isnt about Aragorn, its about Frodo, it's *his* story. It's literally written by Frodo and Sam, Tolkien only 'translated it'. Why the hell would it talk about Aragorn's reign? Its not part of Frodo's story. He wasn't there for any of it.
Martins clearly not a fan of LOTR lol- First of all, there are no orc babies, orcs are all elves whove fallen prey to the ifluence of Sauron as he did Morgoth. Tolkein didnt believe anyone was born bad and beyond redemption, theres no evil race, and basically... that the world is worth saving. Ultimately theyre just different stories, and theres enough room for both kinds. Lord Of The Rings shows us how the world should be: People from all different walks of rising up against tryanny and cruelty for the preservation of freedom and compassion, people of unremarkable background defying what the world expects of them, and people of storied lineage accepting the responsibility that comes with their inherited station in life. ASOIAF is how the world usually really is- Most people that even have the ability to male it into a station of power are selfish cruel and live only to feel above others, smd anyone who tried to do good with their station in life either is ousted from power or corrupted by it, and anyone without the leg up from birth has almost no chance to get to a position of power. Both are stories worth telling.
I think that Tolkien finished his series and that George should focus more on finishing his wonderful masterpiece for the fans instead of criticizing others.
I feel like most the comments here are reacting to this comment as if it were some harsh criticisms, but I promise you in context it’s not. George isn’t describing why he’s better that Tolkien, he’s just describing how his work is different from Tolkien’s. It’s not a condemnation at all.
Tolkien did answer a lot of this stuff, though. Maybe not super specific, but for example it’s noted Aragorn gave the orcs the areas around the Sea of Rhun to live and made them swear oaths not to take up arms again, etc.
Thats like comparing a peewee football kicker to an NFL quarterback. Tolkien was Cohesive entertaining and philosophical. GRRM is just a dirty old man.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Let's hope the final book doesn't end up as elusive as the Iron Throne.
Circus opinion.
Tolkein wasn't telling that type of story. It's like complaining the hungry catepillar doesn't talk about politics, it's not that type of book. Regardless, aragorn inherits a kingdom after it just won a war and suddenly has all this jew land to expand into, expansion makes a booming economy, its actually not that crazy that long lived aragorn, public savour of the world would preside over a very strong kingdom. The closest nation is roman and they're staunch allies that wont be forgotten soon, yet there are still threats in corsairs from the South and haradrim from the east. Now neither of these threats are enough to threaten a untied gondor and roman, but they are big enough to keep the men of the west united and not squabbling over borders. Nevermind there will still be some orcs running about. Aragorn ruling for 100 years peacefully (relativly) and prosperous is actually quite believable.
At least Tolkien finished his story
This is why GRRM is cool.
Tolkien finished his books. Shut up George.
Tolkien's one true heir asking the big questions here.
He did not say that, did he?
This is a pretty old quote, like it’s not recent at all. And in that time George has been a proper cunt and still hasn’t written anything.
This isn’t really an agree vs disagree thing, imo. It’s two different approaches to storytelling, by two authors who are focused on different things in their narratives. No right or wrong, just preferences for writers and readers.
If you write something like that, it needs to be relevant to the story. I haven't read the books myself, so I can't say whether he has a good point or not, but since Lord of the Rings itself is about destroying the ring, it probably isn't relevant. If there's a Middle-Earth book that focuses on Aragorn's reign, then it becomes relevant. With ASOIAF, Martin points out that characters have their good and bad points. Tywin's political achievements are important because they demonstrate the character he is and the role he plays in Westeros. Ned believes in loyalty to the king and that all the power is his, but we know that this is a very naive way to look at it. You want a world with depth, but you don't want to add irrelevant or unnecessary detail. That's why we don't know how the exact length of Cersei's hair or what her fingerprints look like. Some things don't belong in the story.
This guy is so pretentious. He also goes out of his way to say how Tolkien is one of his favorite writers and then does shit like this in every interview. “There’s no good and evil, it’s gray”….”Gandalf should have stayed dead”…”what was Aragorn like as a king”. I get it dude, but that’s not what his story is about. Smh.
This is a weird take. You can like something- love something-and still criticize parts you might not like. Being a fan doesn't mean blindly supporting every part.
I agree that these would be nice things to talk about and all of it could be summarized with a 2 page blurb at the end or be excluded altogether and discussed in an interview. I certainly wouldn't delay publishing a book for a decade over details 99% of readers don't care about.
I don't see these two writers are rivals, more like people with different writing styles when it comes to fantasy. Both have stuff in their own books that the other would not have covered
Peace never lasts, and real world stories of that scale never have a happy ending, not in the fairytale sense. I think it was the game series Gears of War, although I could be misremembering, but I remember people being disappointed when one of the sequels came out that it was set 25 years after the last game and they were already back at war when the last game ended with the war won for the good guys. That's reality, though. Centuries of utter peace are pure fantasy.
He spent put his time into polishing conjugations down to the past conditional imperfects in both elvish and old elfish. *You’re welcome*
He’s shitting on an author that made a whole universe as a bedtime story for his kids, when he relies on violence and real wars for his ideas and can’t even finish his series. Know your place, fr.
If he'd just finish writing the damn books instead of asking these philosophical fuckin questions we'd be grateful
I don't care about that shit
Overthinking to the max. Those things aren’t relevant to the story being told in the book. Adding that the reign went on for x amount of years is a little aside piece to inform the reader that there was more stories to tell, in the same way everyone has their own stories through their life. If I was telling a story about something that happened to me when I was 19, I’d find it strange if that person I told the story to started asking about a completely different and unrelated set of events that happened when I was 31. No wonder he hasn’t finished GOT yet, he’s to preoccupied with what Jon snow ate for breakfast after he lost his virginity.
I’ll consider Martin’s opinion of a legendary author (who shaped fantasy as we know it) that he heavily borrowed from when he finishes his fucking source material. Even Dawn was a direct ripoff of a sword from the Silmarillion.
This question really shows the difference between the 2 authors Thats not bad or good its just how they look at writing storys
I know this quote is taken out of context, but also, Epic Rap Battles of History already gave us this fight. "The genre's called fantasy, you myopic manatee."
Don’t know if it was intended as criticism, but in any case, it doesn’t have to be read that way. This is just one example of the literary dichotomy between romanticism and realism. Even in fantasy that spectrum exists.
All I see is Martin coming up with excuses for why he isn't finishing his own work.
Well, he's technically correct, but also at the same time, who gives a fuck? We judge works on their own merits, Tolkien wasn't a tax policy guy. Also he knew how to finish his *magnus opus*, so maybe chuck fewer stones through your glass walls there fat boy.
Quite the perspective.
[Next verse for Epic Rap Battles of History just dropped](https://youtu.be/XAAp_luluo0?si=AsMkx34t8uLncI_S)
Ironically enough I do want to know this stuff. Paradox mapgames have ruined me.
Rich coming from a dude who has no concept of age or money in his world.