That would just result in swapping one problem for another, arguably even worse one. Now he can't hold his Q exclusively for poke anymore but instead he can hold his passive, which does way more damage anyways and allows him to get out of an all-in. What you describe makes sense but it's the way his passive is currently balanced in lane, because just like you said he has to use it on minions occasionally. If he spams you down with Q it will mean he will at least go OOM (pre ER). Now imagine if he had that ranged attack on a passive cooldown, no Mana cost, and instead always had his current passive at the ready whenever he needs it. Doesn't really sound that much more pleasant to me.
Its true that you do get a lot of advantages, but I think a lot of issue comes from gangplank being able to Q you on CD with pretty much no counterplay. If you shifted this to his passive, he would either have to use it to poke or hold it and miss CS, which his Q passive burn would be controllable, but GP is inherently weaker in melee range due to his poke.
I have issue because with my idea, his passive would not be controllable by just hitting a barrel to reset the burn, you would have to use the poke ability sooner or later. Is the problem with GP just having the ability to reset his burn then so he doesn't have very good windows of opportunity to all in him?
Absolutely not. Any seasoned gp would agree that the barrel usage is what really makes or breaks the lane phase.
Q pokes aren’t as big of an issue for the opposing laner if they know what they’re doing (bush plays…).
I don't really think it's necessary, he hadn't really been a balance issue for a while until Riot overbuffed the burn as part of the crit shifts (edit: and made items able to amplify true damage but not reduce it, Riot fix pls).
As Cnoggi pointed out, your suggestion is already how the passive works, and being able to save the true damage and movement speed for whenever you need it is a pretty big boost to trading power, even if it comes in exchange for having what's effectively just a ranged autoattack a little less often.
But I also want to point out that giving GP an auto reset would make his barrels much harder to contest, and making barrels apply the burn would be a significant boost in how much true damage he puts out in teamfights.
That's true, but I feel like a lot of the frustration in his kit comes from the least skilled part of his kit, his Q which is unconditional poke. I think trading with the burn is fair enough, but having an extremely strong neutral game with his poke makes him oppressive early when he is also able to sit on a barrel and reset his burn. It could be fixed by changing his burn to not reset on barrels, but he would still be frustrating and also underpowered likely.
How would you tackle it? GP is always very strong in pro when he is average in normal play, while he is very annoying to play vs at the same time and oppressive when strong in soloqueue.
Honestly I don't feel like his Q does that much lane poke, especially now that Plated Steelcaps' 12% reduction works on it (it just changed last patch). I guess if that's still not enough, Q cooldown could start a little higher at lower ranks, we max it first anyway.
I definitely wouldn't remove the P reset, that's a good avenue of skill expression. I personally would want to see the P's crit chance ratio move from its damage to its movement speed, so that you can't just slap someone once and burn them for a lot (which again is partially caused by the items being weird about true damage), you should have to use the speed to kite and land another barrel and apply another P hit if you want a lot of burn, that's the whole reason it can reset/stack.
Riot's basically explained that pro-play GP issues were always caused by the bruiser build; it could clear waves and ult teamfights just like crit GP, but it could sidelane more safely because it was harder to kill, in exchange for doing less explosive damage than crit GP (but pro players can coordinate their stuff anyway, they don't need the 1v5 montage play). That's why they shifted him to focus only on crit, and as a result I don't think he's been as much of a pro issue anymore.
My experience with GP, at least from a third person perspective from a non top player, is that he has a pretty strong laning phase with his Q poke, while denying all ins by standing on a barrel for disengage, so you don't necessarily win all ins despite his range advantage. I think his Q starts to be oppressive on his sheen base, which is a bit unfair in my eyes as its only 700G and GP theoretically spikes at literally every item, sheen, ER, Navori, then any other item while most champions have discrete points in the game where they are particularly strong and then pretty average or weak. I don't think it's very fun being sheen proc'd off cooldown and winning despite hitting 0 barrels just because you are standing on one and can instantly win a trade if they extend onto you.
And even if you put him behind, he just needs a few items which he can easily get with his gold passive to come back.
He has an okay laning phase, but I think you're overestimating how well he can trade. Barrels are an 18 second cooldown and you often have to use 2 to land 1, that's a big window for opponents to all-in (especially now that they can see your barrel count). And landing a barrel is not going to stop a Kled or an Olaf from rampaging all over you if they decide that now is when you die.
But it's definitely true that GP can always farm and try to come back, that gold is how Riot says "yes he's a pirate" lol, like how TF gets his from cheating at gambling. If he needs to get a little weaker in lane to compensate for his scaling (even though lategame a lot of champs have enough attack speed to contest barrels), then yeah I'm okay with the nerf I mentioned before (Q cooldown could start off a little higher at lower ranks and then scale down to what it is now).
wait till u find out his Q used to be 20 mana and he could ignore farming minions when klepto was a thing. Oh yea, spacing is a huge thing and probably would give you a significant QOL improvement in playing league of legends, not just against GP.
I'm not even mad about playing vs this champ tbh. I play jungle and am relatively unaffected by him being remotely strong.
At the same time, saying spacing is a big QoL thing is redundant when the champs Q range is bigger than any toplaner auto range. It is basically uncounterplayable apart from facetanking it and taking runes which is viable for any champion in the game.
Build Doran's shield, take second wind. Gp is now effectively trolling if he presses q on you before essence reaver because it rips his mana away. At 1 item he has to rely on a crit making him inconsistent he can't tank damage like other champs can just dive the fucker. Beyond that it gets harder as a scaling champ should get harder to vs later, however he is still susceptible to knock up and dive him and he just gets blown to smithereens.
That would just result in swapping one problem for another, arguably even worse one. Now he can't hold his Q exclusively for poke anymore but instead he can hold his passive, which does way more damage anyways and allows him to get out of an all-in. What you describe makes sense but it's the way his passive is currently balanced in lane, because just like you said he has to use it on minions occasionally. If he spams you down with Q it will mean he will at least go OOM (pre ER). Now imagine if he had that ranged attack on a passive cooldown, no Mana cost, and instead always had his current passive at the ready whenever he needs it. Doesn't really sound that much more pleasant to me.
Its true that you do get a lot of advantages, but I think a lot of issue comes from gangplank being able to Q you on CD with pretty much no counterplay. If you shifted this to his passive, he would either have to use it to poke or hold it and miss CS, which his Q passive burn would be controllable, but GP is inherently weaker in melee range due to his poke. I have issue because with my idea, his passive would not be controllable by just hitting a barrel to reset the burn, you would have to use the poke ability sooner or later. Is the problem with GP just having the ability to reset his burn then so he doesn't have very good windows of opportunity to all in him?
No, now how about you come up with idea when you knowhow a champ is played
Not knowing how to play the champ and having such a strong opinion on him is crazy.
I mean it was just a bit of fun really. I don't play top, I was just thinking of this having played a lot of kled overall.
No thanks
Absolutely not. Any seasoned gp would agree that the barrel usage is what really makes or breaks the lane phase. Q pokes aren’t as big of an issue for the opposing laner if they know what they’re doing (bush plays…).
I don't really think it's necessary, he hadn't really been a balance issue for a while until Riot overbuffed the burn as part of the crit shifts (edit: and made items able to amplify true damage but not reduce it, Riot fix pls). As Cnoggi pointed out, your suggestion is already how the passive works, and being able to save the true damage and movement speed for whenever you need it is a pretty big boost to trading power, even if it comes in exchange for having what's effectively just a ranged autoattack a little less often. But I also want to point out that giving GP an auto reset would make his barrels much harder to contest, and making barrels apply the burn would be a significant boost in how much true damage he puts out in teamfights.
That's true, but I feel like a lot of the frustration in his kit comes from the least skilled part of his kit, his Q which is unconditional poke. I think trading with the burn is fair enough, but having an extremely strong neutral game with his poke makes him oppressive early when he is also able to sit on a barrel and reset his burn. It could be fixed by changing his burn to not reset on barrels, but he would still be frustrating and also underpowered likely. How would you tackle it? GP is always very strong in pro when he is average in normal play, while he is very annoying to play vs at the same time and oppressive when strong in soloqueue.
Honestly I don't feel like his Q does that much lane poke, especially now that Plated Steelcaps' 12% reduction works on it (it just changed last patch). I guess if that's still not enough, Q cooldown could start a little higher at lower ranks, we max it first anyway. I definitely wouldn't remove the P reset, that's a good avenue of skill expression. I personally would want to see the P's crit chance ratio move from its damage to its movement speed, so that you can't just slap someone once and burn them for a lot (which again is partially caused by the items being weird about true damage), you should have to use the speed to kite and land another barrel and apply another P hit if you want a lot of burn, that's the whole reason it can reset/stack. Riot's basically explained that pro-play GP issues were always caused by the bruiser build; it could clear waves and ult teamfights just like crit GP, but it could sidelane more safely because it was harder to kill, in exchange for doing less explosive damage than crit GP (but pro players can coordinate their stuff anyway, they don't need the 1v5 montage play). That's why they shifted him to focus only on crit, and as a result I don't think he's been as much of a pro issue anymore.
My experience with GP, at least from a third person perspective from a non top player, is that he has a pretty strong laning phase with his Q poke, while denying all ins by standing on a barrel for disengage, so you don't necessarily win all ins despite his range advantage. I think his Q starts to be oppressive on his sheen base, which is a bit unfair in my eyes as its only 700G and GP theoretically spikes at literally every item, sheen, ER, Navori, then any other item while most champions have discrete points in the game where they are particularly strong and then pretty average or weak. I don't think it's very fun being sheen proc'd off cooldown and winning despite hitting 0 barrels just because you are standing on one and can instantly win a trade if they extend onto you. And even if you put him behind, he just needs a few items which he can easily get with his gold passive to come back.
He has an okay laning phase, but I think you're overestimating how well he can trade. Barrels are an 18 second cooldown and you often have to use 2 to land 1, that's a big window for opponents to all-in (especially now that they can see your barrel count). And landing a barrel is not going to stop a Kled or an Olaf from rampaging all over you if they decide that now is when you die. But it's definitely true that GP can always farm and try to come back, that gold is how Riot says "yes he's a pirate" lol, like how TF gets his from cheating at gambling. If he needs to get a little weaker in lane to compensate for his scaling (even though lategame a lot of champs have enough attack speed to contest barrels), then yeah I'm okay with the nerf I mentioned before (Q cooldown could start off a little higher at lower ranks and then scale down to what it is now).
wait till u find out his Q used to be 20 mana and he could ignore farming minions when klepto was a thing. Oh yea, spacing is a huge thing and probably would give you a significant QOL improvement in playing league of legends, not just against GP.
I'm not even mad about playing vs this champ tbh. I play jungle and am relatively unaffected by him being remotely strong. At the same time, saying spacing is a big QoL thing is redundant when the champs Q range is bigger than any toplaner auto range. It is basically uncounterplayable apart from facetanking it and taking runes which is viable for any champion in the game.
Build Doran's shield, take second wind. Gp is now effectively trolling if he presses q on you before essence reaver because it rips his mana away. At 1 item he has to rely on a crit making him inconsistent he can't tank damage like other champs can just dive the fucker. Beyond that it gets harder as a scaling champ should get harder to vs later, however he is still susceptible to knock up and dive him and he just gets blown to smithereens.
how are you still frustrated with gp's Q dude? it barely does damage early game, doesn't proc melee grasp anymore, dshield is broken...
Me like gp a lot. Ive only played him about a week
How about we trade Darius' passive for his Q too?