I think they missed the mark not having hot mics on all the players. Leaving most of the verbal exchanges being between players and caddies. Big L. I really don’t give a shit about the commentary.
When I was thinking about it the other day, I think this is why I like YouTube golf so much. Sure I know Rick Shields probably won't break 75 and there's almost no chance that Peter Finch ever qualifies for the open, but I still like to watch high level golf and hear what they're thinking and what they're doing in the moment.
It tells a story and weaves a narrative that the commentators never can and both LIV and the PGA broadcasts could be greatly improved by it.
I have no idea what Peter Finch’s goal even is. He’s like somewhere between a 0 and a + 2 at best, which is precisely good enough to get you nowhere as a professional golfer. He’d be better served just making YouTube videos and maybe giving lessons.
bryson dropped a video last week where he was mic'd up for the whole las vegas tourney and it was really cool to hear how he interacted with his caddie and how he verbalized his course management, knowing he had a hot mic the whole time. i agree, i'd rather hear/see more of that than hearing loud music blasting.
[https://youtu.be/V99RTLt84S8?si=sapHdUYVLGbQxjQK](https://youtu.be/V99RTLt84S8?si=sapHdUYVLGbQxjQK)
Easier to have a mic when you are the one doing the cutting and approving before publishing. I imagine a lot more players would be okay with that over live streaming it.
Then mic up the caddies.
And if they still complain, then pay them to get mic’d up. LIV has shown that a lot of people, even multi-millionaires, have a price.
>they missed the mark not having hot mics on all the players.
Among many other things. It seems they do not care about feedback and just keep plowing ahead without tweaking the product to make it better. It's obvious at this point that the music is not a positive for a majority of fans and the teams are confusing and meaningless but they haven't made any attempt to improve the product. I'm convinced they don't care about LIV succeeding as much as they care about the PGAT being destroyed. Once the PGAT is dead, they can do anything they want with LIV as it'll be the only game in town.
The format holds it back for me. It’s largely the shotgun start and lack of cut. I can get past the rest, but those two really impact the drama the game should have.
No cut is self explanatory.
But what really bugs me is that theres no Amen Corner, Snake Pit, Bear Trap, etc moments because of the shotgun start. Add into the lack of an anticipated “walk up 18” (it’s not always 18) and it just kind of doesn’t have the high drama moments of a PGA tournament.
The shotgun start is the biggest barrier for me. You just can't build a narrative with it and the coverage just becomes a compilation of shots with no context. The cuts between shots are way too fast as well, it feels like whoever is directing coverage is slamming back lines as they go
It’s funny to me that how much I realized this mattered after watching some LIV.
These courses were designed by top tier designers, with every detail having a purpose and there is way the course was meant to be played that almost tells a story. It would be like reading book but started 2/3’s of the way through, finishing it, and going back to the beginning.
But in the end I just go back to thinking that, maybe LIV isn’t for my generation(millennial) as well as the older generations. I say if it helps get younger generations interested in golf and entertained by it then great. But unfortunately for now I feel like it’s done nothing but divide the game and cause conflict
But when watching the pga broadcast people bitch and moan about not enough shots, too many commercials, only show the leaders. Can’t really have it both ways. Seems people will complain no matter what.
Yeah the pga tour is really lighting it up with venues this week at palm beach gardens and the grand reserve resort in Puerto Rico next week. No one playing at the pebble beaches of the world week in and week out.
At least PGA has Pebble, Sawgrass, Scottsdale, Riviera, Bay Hill, etc on their schedule. LIV literally doesn’t have one historic or prestigious course that anyone cares about.
I've admittedly barely looked I to it but I don't get how it's team golf. If they'd have Ryder cup style team golf with 4 somes, greensomes and singles over the 3 dyas.with winners earnings points towards an overall leaderboard which has a champion at the end of the season, this makes way more sense to me.
Theres micro drama per weekend as to which teams are going to win their matches and macro drama over the season with natural rivalries from previous seasons carrying over.
It's such a no brainer to me.
Yeah I just can’t stand anything about the whole league. I’m not saying the PGA is perfect but man… all of it drives me crazy, and especially the music (sorry, I’m one of those geezers that isn’t a fan of music out on the course).
I couldn’t agree more. In 2020-21 when I played golf I would joke covid was the second worst pandemic of the year next to people blasting Bluetooth speakers on golf courses.
It’s kind of how the NBA is to me now. I want to hear the shoes squeaking and the guys communicating to each other on the court not the music. With golf I love hearing the caddies and golfers discussing their shot strategy and the nuance of the course and finally the sound of the club hitting the ball.
Add my name to the league of “music is personal, outdoor activities are communal.” The whole idea of being polite is about avoiding imposing on others. Don’t play your music aloud on the course, or on the ski slope, or on the train. That’s not old, it’s a kind way to live.
The distances were off by multiples on at least 2 of the 4 holes I watched him play. First hole he played on Friday he was in one of the fairway bunkers closest to the tees on 18 after badly topping his 2nd shot, the graphics screen said 114 yards to the pin so the announcers thought he duffed his 3rd which was a safe layup with a mid iron. They clearly can’t keep up with the chaos of the shotgun start at least on the early holes. Then on his second round he was off the green maybe 50 yards from the pin and the graphic was saying 26 feet lol the production is like a shitty video game or something.
I hadn’t watched before so I was actually shocked at how bad of a product it actually is. It even seemed like the announcers are holding back their smirks talking about the Cleeks making a run at the Range Rats or whatever the dumb ass teams are called. I thought the haters may have just been coping but nah LIV actually sucks ass lol
Another funny moment was the play by play guy saying Rahm’s never gonna finish outside the top 10 again and correcting himself moments later talking about how what a competitive league LIV is
I am a gold fan and watch it all. Girls, guys, old men, whatever. I miss the guys that went to LIVso I watch. Insane level of talent on that tour despite what all the haters say.
That's like the definition of lipstick on a pig. The guys are really good players, but they are competing in a product that both sucks and is sportwashing for shitty people. It just doesn't work.
And, yes, I know that Nike and Apple profit from virtual slavery in foreign nations and that the us government is aligned with the Saudis. Those things I can not control, but I can control whether I root for them in my leisure time.
If the product was decent, I would watch a little bit and then feel disgusted with myself. It's easier for me that I really don't like the product.
Yeah if it was laid out like a DP event I’d be pleased. They also have neat tech which I haven’t checked out but for example you can see all of a certain players shotsfor the round in a video on their site. For fee. Thats huge.
They also have a lot of shot related data which is cool.
The presentation is brutal. Like pxg had a baby with Justin Bieber brutal. But they do show a lot of golf and no commercials and a lot of talented players. Just wish the presentation was a bit more traditional.
And ya they eat babies but I’m here for the golf.
You think we’ve all just never given it a chance?
I don’t think any of us LIV haters hate it because we never tried watching it.
It’s just a fucking awful product.
My personal opinion is that it's fine. It's no worse than a standard PGA tour event which is now a very low bar.
None of the below is particularly popular on this Subreddit but here goes:
Since they play globally i actually get to see some golf in my time zone and prime time.
I like the shot gun start because it means the entire round can be over in 5 hrs, current PGA events can be super boring for the first 2 and last 2 hours because there's barely anybody on the course and it gets worse after the cut. Once it gets to Sunday they tend to follow the lead group so you still get the drama.
All the noise, colour and scoreboard really has its roots in T20 cricket. Having watched BBL for the last 13 years I think I'm just immune to it all because none of it actually bothers me like it seems to bother Americans.
I disagree with the "players don't care" storyline as every other sport in the world is pay to play except maybe tennis.
It never sat right with me that a player can turn up to an event (on their own dime) with a crowd and sponsors and go home with nothing.
If you play a tournament you should get paid.
This is how I feel. If this was Tiger's league nobody would give a shit about the majority of what they complain about. They are looking for reasons to "hAtE tHe PrOdUcT."
PGAT coverage is awful and you need 10 different apps if you want to watch every round of every event. LIV, you just go on the website.
Their roster is pretty damn stacked and it's nice that they all play in every event. It's frustrating with the PGAT to even figure out if your favorite players are playing a random tournament.
Sure they do a lot of things differently but they aren't deal breakers. A little music in the background? Oh no, imagine being that soft. Less traditional graphics? Fade me now.
Mostly agree. The production stinks, between the pilon (or whatever Arlo calls it) and Foltz in never ending shill mode, it’s awful. Do like the dont blink concept though.
The music in the background is annoying as hell and I just can’t get into a shotgun start.
The potential is there but being wedded to the “we have to be different “ just doesn’t work for me.
Also, the CW? Get a real outlet.
It’s a lot like watching a golf exhibition. If the players are all paid out before they even tee it up, then where’s the stress and drama. Now it’s just watching guys hit stress-free golf shots which…..I mean, there’s other things I’d rather watch.
It does have similarities.
But a lot of guys explained their LIV decisions as “less golf for more money.”
And few (none?) said “I want to win the biggest and best tournaments in the world, and they are LIV tournaments.”
So, sure, I think everyone playing golf enjoys shooting lower scores. But none of them have to play well to keep their eligibility and income.
Doesn’t matter. When you are sweating and realize in the back of your mind you have a putt that makes you an extra 500K to a million and moves you up the golf world rankings it adds so much more.
If you want to say that a LIV event is comparable to the Super Bowl and you’re not joking when you say that, then I’m candidly not interested in the conversation. Try a different argument.
you called LIV an exhibition "because they get paid before they play".
Every other major sport, the players get paid before they play.
You then say LIV is an exhibition, but everything else (eg. superbowl) isn't.
Yeah, you're fucking inconsistent because you have a hate boner for LIV and will do whatever mental gymnastics you need to to continue lying to yourself.
I said LIV sucks bc it’s made up events at bad courses and most of the players said they’re excited about the money. Not one has said they care about winning LIV trophies.
You can try to make the whole anti-LIV world your enemy, but my guy, you’re making nearly the entire world your enemy. Look at the joke ratings LIV is getting on the CW network. No one watches, no one cares, and all I can say is you can keep rooting for it to matter one day for some reason (I truly don’t know why any fan would give a shit about LIV), but until that day comes, I guess you’ll be yelling at people on the internet for fun. Enjoy.
> and most of the players said they’re excited about the money.
I've never heard of a player signing for a different NFL/NHL/MLB team for the money. NEVER.
Continue to be blind to the double standards
How many times has a player said their goal is to win the Super Bowl?
How many times has a player said their goal is to win the LIV event in Saudi Arabia?
Dude how are you comparing the Super Bowl to LIV and think your arguments are consistent? Professional athletes can get paid up front and also care about winning at the same time. It’s 100% obvious that every Liv golfer is trying to win. There is stake in winning. It boosts their career and brand. No different from any other professional sport. And yes obviously the fucking Super Bowl is more popular…
The other leagues have history and prestige that comes with winning the major event. None of that is happening at LIV. A win for a LIV event doesn’t mean much at this point, because you don’t have anything historical to compare it to. What does winning five LIV events mean? Is it hard?
The money for these guys is primary, sure, fine. But what does winning mean after that?
Yes, because the top pga players are struggling financially… I think some points are fair, like maybe you don’t like music , but to say there is no drama because players are making money is so weird
There’s no drama bc the money is guaranteed. And the entry into the tournament is guaranteed. And only about 10,000 people are tuning in on the CW app.
Anyone flying private is probably not too stressed about money. But for the PGAT, that’s only the top 20 or 30 guys. The rest are flying commercial and grinding their way to maintain their eligibility/career.
It's not the money. There is no prestige available to winners of LIV. They didn't play a full 4 days of golf, so nothing they do matters.
Each tour win for Rory (or lack of one) continues his narrative, the story of his career. DJ's carrer is over. Nobody will talk about his LIV wins, nobody's going to talk about how well the 4Aces or w/e did a decade from now.
Why do guys keep mentioning Rory as if he’s the only PGAT member?
Rory is an outlier on the PGAT. The avg player on tour is on the grind trying to earn money, eligibility, etc.
PGAT golfers win $0 if they don’t play well. It’s an actual competition with stress and pressure. Rory beating the those guys means he outcompeted them that week.
Do you think money is everything? These are incredibly competitive people, all they've done their entire lives is try and be the best - I don't think they are there on the 18th green, thinking "this putt will win me an extra million"- I think they are thinking "This putt will make be better than that cunt over there".
People spend their entire lives preparing to win a small bit of medal at the Olympics, with no pay, that's about the winning, not the money.
Many sports stars are paid salaries, I don't think they try any less hard because of it.
There are many valid criticisms of LIV, but I really don't buy the prize money argument.
How many golfers grow up saying “I’ve always dreamt of winning a no-cut, shotgun start tournament in Jeddah.”
Pretty sure they grow up dreaming of winning at Augusta, Pebble, St Andrews, etc. Those are true competitions.
This is a pretty weak argument considering the league is so young. Nobody has yet grown up considering it.
Nobody cares about pebble. People can still grow up wanting to win a major (because these are all but irrelevant as far as the PGA tour goes) and play on liv.
The only reason people currently want to play the PGA tour is because it's the biggest tour. Despite what their pr department tells you, it's not the history or the prestige, it's the money. This is changing and if it continues so will young golfer's aspirations. It's not like the PGA tour got where it is today instantly. It was a long process during which they all but destroyed professional golf everywhere else in the world.
The vast majority of LIV have no status in the majors. Only the few who have won one in the past few years have it (or Masters champions who want to play at Augusta).
So….the vast majority of LIV is just guys doing what they need to do to earn out their contracts.
Look, if you want to knock the PGAT, then I’m good with that. But saying anything remotely positive about LIV is where I’m going to have to strongly disagree with you. We can create an alternative to the PGAT that doesn’t aggressively suck ass.
We're talking about the future. You know, referencing your comment about nobody growing up wanting to play a league that's what, two and a bit years old? I mean sure, I too am surprised that there isn't an 18 month old out there dreaming of playing on liv...
So, in the future, if liv continues, it's likely it will get owgr points or majors will introduce an exemption for the top x liv players. In the future, if a merger goes ahead or they do indeed buy a stake off SSG, it's likely that players will be able to play on both tours. At that point they will have a pathway to the majors.
What? They still get paid for winning.
You're also contradicting your own statement that they're competitive people and therefore want to compete. Why are rich PGA members more competitive than rich liv members?
Money is how we measure success in our society.
LIV players are not competing for money, right? They just are contracted to play, and their compensation is set. If they win a tournament, it reduces their overall compensation. They aren't paid $ 100 million plus their winnings.
When the tour was founded, if a player had a $100 contract and won a tournament, the winnings for that tournament was subtracted from their guarantee.
Did that change?
That was a rumour that hasn't ever been confirmed as far as I'm aware.
If it is the case they are still playing for money though? Winning a tournament does not reduce their overall compensation. Who would sign that contract?
That was falsely reported and once again LIV has said players get the money they win on top of their signing bonus. The team money doesn’t go towards the player, but instead goes towards the team as a whole
Uh they are def not paid out. A lot of them are flying commercial, staying in Marriotts, and have less than a year of eligibility in front of them. They have a lot to play for.
Disagree as I feel its more competitive from audience point of view, as they get all their players compulsorily playing in same events, and theres not many of it (13 events per year). Apparently every top players there would want to win it otherwise they may end up with nothing in their cabinet (heard Rahm swearing couple of times wherever he miss the green or his putts)
Alright, glad you find it exciting!
I personally can’t get interested in watching guys play a contrived shotgun start tournament. But I’m only one person after all.
Yeah, the TV program they produce is terrible. The golfing is good. Somehow they are able to make that shitty. Seems simple enough. Show golfers golfing. Talk a bit about what is happening. All this stuff with teams and on air graphics. All bullshit.
I’m going to a LIV tournament this summer. It’s at the course where my dad works. I’m excited to see all of these guys play. The biggest positive of the tour is the roster. I have no interest in these PGA tournaments that don’t include the big names left on the tour.
I wish there were crossover events.
Honestly, the regular PGA Tour events, whilst better, aren't great either.
Other than the Majors (especially the Masters), YouTube golf is currently just a better watching experience.
I’ve heard the “YouTube golf is better” point a few times. What YouTube golf do you mean? I like NLU stuff, but that’s clearly not a substitute for professional tournaments.
I’ve seen some Good Good and it’s.. fine. That’s the closest to competitive golf I’ve come across though, and can’t imagine that being what people are talking about.
Check out Grant Horvat or Micah Morris. Not everything is going to be to your taste, but they have some excellent pure golf content.
Rock Shiels and Peter Finch likewise have a moment X of some goofy stuff, but also some genuine content where they play to their best.
Ultimately, if you search you'll probably find something to your taste. But the overall difference is YouTubers (the good ones) produce the best possible content they can, with a deeper focus on the golf and meaningful commentary.
The PGA Tour is produced for the lowest common denominator with appeasing advertisers always being the primary focus. That's why it so often devolves into a highlights reel with banal commentary.
Edit: Downvoted for a perfectly reasonable take. Classic r/golf cunts.
I watched alot of Good Good, GM Golf, Grant Horvet, Micah Morris, Rick Shiels and even Bryson Dechambeau. Their contents are mostly very entertaining and high quality. I even enjoy watching long drive golfer who happened to be scratch golfer (ie Kyle Berkshire), who is capable of smashing 400+ yards off tee and attempting eagle putts. Fun to watch.
Eh, it really depends on what you're looking for. I really, super duper, dislike YouTube golf. I'll get downvoted to hell for this, but they're goofing around too much. I like the drive and struggle that pays off with satisfaction later.
I don't play golf for pleasure, which I understand makes me a very small minority, but what we see on the PGA Tour is not pleasurable golf per se, it's satisfying golf. We're watching the payoff of thousands of hours, dozens of years of hard work that result. YouTube golf seems more focused on making sure *that moment* is enjoyable, which is fleeting.
Pleasure vs. satisfaction. It's different, for different folks. The problem with LIV is it's neither pleasurable nor satisfying. It's striking right in the middle, which means you need gimmicks to keep it interesting.
Could you elaborate more on your statement about ‘not playing golf for pleasure’? Like where you do it for a living and hate it or you don’t play at all or you play with people for business and hate every minute haha?
Hate it? No, I don't hate it. But I don't play it just to feel pleasure. I'm not in it for the good shots, because there aren't enough of those. I'm in it for the combined score over the course of a season. I prefer to watch my skill improve over a period of time and watch how that impacts my overall game.
For example, if I practice my putting a lot, I derive satisfaction out of watching my score drop as a result.
Pleasure is rarely sustainable. You're constantly seeking the next high. Satisfaction lasts well beyond the moment you achieve it, because satisfaction represents a longer, concerted effort that was more difficult to achieve.
This is a pretty common philosophical distinction, I'm not breaking any new ground here or anything, to be clear.
This reads like an arbitrary line that is more about mental gymnastics than living life. Pleasure is a feeling that can be experienced by many things, including the satisfaction of setting your work pay off.
If it works for you that's great. But you're describing pleasure when you say you get satisfaction out of watching the result of your putting practice.
Like, you can call it whatever makes you happy internally. But telling other people that you aren't enjoying the things that you are clearly enjoying is a bit weird IMO.
Mental gymnastics for what, though? What am I trying to justify? There's a substantial difference between pleasure and satisfaction, this is taught in introduction to philosophy courses, I didn't make this distinction up.
From https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/happiness/:
> Whereas hedonists identify well-being roughly with experiences of pleasure, desire theorists equate it with the satisfaction of one’s desires—actually getting what you want, versus merely having certain experiences.
But I get it. Thinking about stuff like this is unpleasant for some. That's okay. It's also okay to think about what makes you happy.
That quote isn't saying what you think it is.
It is differentiating between how people define their sense of well-being, not saying that having pleasurable feelings is different from satisfaction. You can be pleased by the results of your efforts. A feeling of satisfaction is pleasurable. The point in the quote is defining your self worth by how you feel moment to moment vs defining it by the results of your efforts is the distinction between hedonism and desire theory.
From later in the article you linked:
>Another reason to focus on emotional condition rather than experience alone may be the greater psychological depth of the former: its impact on our mental lives, physiology, and behavior is arguably deeper and more pervasive. This enhances the explanatory and predictive significance of happiness, and more importantly its desirability: happiness on this view is not merely pleasant, but a major source of pleasure and other good outcomes (Fredrickson 2004, Lyubomirsky, King et al. 2005).
Specifically "happiness on this view is not merely pleasant, but a major source of **pleasure**."
Why did you have to throw out random insults?
The quote says exactly what I think it does, you're just failing to comprehend it.
And these aren't insults, they're observations.
You're arguing against the idea of exercise, training, and practice. It's absurd on its face. People don't have to enjoy every aspect (or indeed any aspect) of effort in order to derive satisfaction from its results.
If LIV was a 4 day tournament, with purses as big as what they paid the players, it would have taken over the PGAT in a month. What it is now, the players have zero consequences.
PGAT: Miss/make a 4 footer which causes to miss/make the cut. That’s fun to watch.
LIV: Opps, I missed a four footer. Who gives a fuck! I still make 6 figures. Boring as shit to watch.
The tour could’ve avoided it too I think. Players used to be independent contractors. They were allowed to play whenever and wherever they wanted all over the world. They could’ve allowed them to play in a few Saudi tourneys throughout the year instead of blackballing them from the tour completely.
Not to mention the putting line is completely wrong. Some holes it'll say "Aim 1 inch left" on the broadcast. The golfer proceeds to aim about 2ft left and it still breaks right of the hole. The whole broadcast just seems like they decided to make it as cheaply as possible
If LIV format was the 'traditional ' format and the PGA was the new upstart, a lot of complaints would go the other way. Extra 18 holes makes a close finish less likely, no shotgun means the leaders might not be playing at the end, etc. Golf doesn't easily lend itself to broadcasts, I think. Certainly neither program is without some glaring problems.
I think why I don't like LIV...they broke the mirage of 'meaningful' events. Events have meaning because we say they do. People get into amateur sports, collegiate sports, lower tier football, etc. Best vs. Best is great, but increasingly I find myself with a hearty 'meh' for it.
I haven’t tried to watch online but I’m excited to go next week to watch in Hong Kong. My plan is to eat drink get drunk and heckle Bryson and AK. I am hoping it will be a lot of fun. Just going on the Fri and maybe sat. Fri I’m in the Gallery Club
Unpopular opinion but I quite like it, I can't stand watching the pga tour only to be interrupted with adverts all of the time it really takes you out of the experience and it makes me lose interest quickly it's nice being able to watch golf without too much interruption and the interruptions they do have are pieces on the players either giving advice or behind the scenes.
IMO watching golf on TV is boring anyway. At least LIV and espn+ show more golf shots. I feel like golf is like hockey or baseball, much more enjoyable in person. Plus the pros play on the weekend when I'd rather just be out there actually playing myself. Maybe if they moved the events to Monday-Thursday I'd get more invested.
PGA events are more fun in person if you're a golfer, and LIV is a good time in person even if you're not a golfer.
I’m sorry but what’s so much better being in person where you’re following one group? Or maybe switching to another when they’re nearby. Hockey and baseball are so much better in person because you actually see more than what you get on TV. With golf you see less
> Hockey and baseball are so much better in person because you actually see more than what you get on TV. With golf you see less
Respectfully disagree. You've clearly never been to a professional golf tournament in person. It's a completely different experience.
Agree to disagree then. I think watching pro golf in person is a lot more interesting than watching on TV and I'm not the only one. Maybe you've got some repressed daddy issues from being dragged to tournaments since you were a kid. Maybe it's just a matter of opinion 🤷♂️
Lmfaoooooo turning to insults because you don’t have a clue is peak Reddit. Watching on tv allows me to see relevant shots from leaders which you can’t do on a golf course. You can’t just teleport from hole to hole in person man.
When we look at the tours offering this week and last, LIV is far more entertaining of a field. The golf is good. The background music is horrible. The graphic are similar to F1, it’s not mainstream
Yeah this is a fair analysis, it’s kind of interesting that they’ve chosen to prioritize the in person attendance versus the TV product. If I wasn’t morally opposed to financially supporting the product (not having a debate over gas or other products, watching a golf tournament in person is a complete luxury compared to other things I buy with Saudi influence) I’d probably try to go watch one.
Yeah I mean it seems like places like Australia are the golden ticket for them because the crowds looked huge in Adelaide. But those kinds of places have been largely neglected by the PGAT and note they can see some of these big name players in person
I don’t think the kids care about pro golf outside of majors. Just judging by their conversations and stuff they mimic in practice they’re way more into youtube golf than pro golf by a mile.
Only ever caught like the 3rd event when Brandon Grace caught fire at the end against Ortiz or some other Mexican player. It was whatever and haven’t had the calling to ever watch again.
I’m just surprised with how they have all of that money, and yet their production is easily the worst of any nationally televised sport. The god damn ESPN cornhole championship even blows them out of the water in that regard.
I liked when LIV came to "Boston" and that shit was half the state away near Worcester. The players are good, but everything about the production is bush league.
Some of it does have potential. The shotgun format makes it seem more like a singular “golf match” rather than endless golf like the PGA tour. The announcers r good, but the camera’s, angles, overall filmography is clearly a step behind the PGA on golf channel/nbc. Also, halfway through the screen just started shaking. They do play for something by the way the lowest team gets relegated like soccer.
I just can’t comprehend the fact that they think (or maybe some portion of the audience thinks?) that music + wearing shorts = more fun from a viewing perspective
I tried watching it today too. The graphics are just outrageously bad. They remind me of a teenager getting photoshop for the first time and going wild.
The problem with the shotgun start is that the broadcast pretty much feels like a highlight show of shots instead of an unfolding story. A good leaderboard with the contenders all over the course finishing at the same time just falls flat. There’s no back 9 drama to develop because there is no back 9.
Agreed with point 2 where music doesn't really work for TV broadcast, they should find a way to fix it.
For point 1, its really subjective thing. For example I thought the F1 like graphics are interesting, the team format also helps create a buzz and apparently I thought they are appealing to the younger audience.
For me my biggest complain is that they don't get to show more coverage of some of my favourite golfers, its like the highlights from editor choice all the time. Other than that, I thought the whole event was good to watch, different from traditional golf (which I get why some people hate), but more intense and fun.
I just prefer large fields (120+). The underdog can come thru, it establishes new stars better and keeps the veteran stars on top of their game. I think almost all of the LIV players, even the captains, are trying to keep their game in tip top shape, but the fact is that even on the PGA Tour you would get players that coasted once they knew their Tour card was safe. I worked with one client about 10 years ago and after some strong finishes I told him his card was safe after Pebble Beach and it was obvious to me that he basically didn't give a crap and coasted the rest of the season. To try and make me believe that nobody is doing that on LIV with those massive contracts is just being naive.
But anybody that remembers when Greg Norman tried to put together a 'world tour' back in '94 they knew what he was trying to do back then and rejected it. Greg was nearing the twilight of his career and wanted to continue to secure his top spot in the world rankings even though his play was slipping. It's just that he didn't have the financial backing he has today. And since his ego is so big, he's now using this as part of his vendetta against the PGA Tour and all of those players that saw what he was trying to do back 30 years ago.
Golf is such a niche sport and acquired taste to watch.
Only hardcore golfers can watch it on tv for more than an hour.
I don’t care what stars go to LIV - it’s just not an entertaining product.
They may as well be playing flag football at this point. Just not going to watch it for more than a minute.
Shotgun is my biggest pet peeve. I mean, championship holes are just that. The intensity and drama. None of that with this format if you end your tourney on the 2nd hole.
I like the leaderboard thingy, reminds of F-1.
I think they missed the mark not having hot mics on all the players. Leaving most of the verbal exchanges being between players and caddies. Big L. I really don’t give a shit about the commentary.
When I was thinking about it the other day, I think this is why I like YouTube golf so much. Sure I know Rick Shields probably won't break 75 and there's almost no chance that Peter Finch ever qualifies for the open, but I still like to watch high level golf and hear what they're thinking and what they're doing in the moment. It tells a story and weaves a narrative that the commentators never can and both LIV and the PGA broadcasts could be greatly improved by it.
If you like to watch high level golf then stay away from ricks video last week with Sergio. Some strong oofs in that one
I have no idea what Peter Finch’s goal even is. He’s like somewhere between a 0 and a + 2 at best, which is precisely good enough to get you nowhere as a professional golfer. He’d be better served just making YouTube videos and maybe giving lessons.
Haha I love Rick and Pete but those points are so true about both of them
bryson dropped a video last week where he was mic'd up for the whole las vegas tourney and it was really cool to hear how he interacted with his caddie and how he verbalized his course management, knowing he had a hot mic the whole time. i agree, i'd rather hear/see more of that than hearing loud music blasting. [https://youtu.be/V99RTLt84S8?si=sapHdUYVLGbQxjQK](https://youtu.be/V99RTLt84S8?si=sapHdUYVLGbQxjQK)
Easier to have a mic when you are the one doing the cutting and approving before publishing. I imagine a lot more players would be okay with that over live streaming it.
That’s a good point. I’m sure a lot of the players don’t want to be mic’ed up but it would be cool as a viewer.
Then mic up the caddies. And if they still complain, then pay them to get mic’d up. LIV has shown that a lot of people, even multi-millionaires, have a price.
>they missed the mark not having hot mics on all the players. Among many other things. It seems they do not care about feedback and just keep plowing ahead without tweaking the product to make it better. It's obvious at this point that the music is not a positive for a majority of fans and the teams are confusing and meaningless but they haven't made any attempt to improve the product. I'm convinced they don't care about LIV succeeding as much as they care about the PGAT being destroyed. Once the PGAT is dead, they can do anything they want with LIV as it'll be the only game in town.
The format holds it back for me. It’s largely the shotgun start and lack of cut. I can get past the rest, but those two really impact the drama the game should have. No cut is self explanatory. But what really bugs me is that theres no Amen Corner, Snake Pit, Bear Trap, etc moments because of the shotgun start. Add into the lack of an anticipated “walk up 18” (it’s not always 18) and it just kind of doesn’t have the high drama moments of a PGA tournament.
The shotgun start is the biggest barrier for me. You just can't build a narrative with it and the coverage just becomes a compilation of shots with no context. The cuts between shots are way too fast as well, it feels like whoever is directing coverage is slamming back lines as they go
It feels like watching a tiktok feed of golf highlights. ....This is probably on purpose.
*Jon Rahm sticks one pin high from 200m* Director: "hard cut to Anthony Kim shank NOW"
It’s funny to me that how much I realized this mattered after watching some LIV. These courses were designed by top tier designers, with every detail having a purpose and there is way the course was meant to be played that almost tells a story. It would be like reading book but started 2/3’s of the way through, finishing it, and going back to the beginning. But in the end I just go back to thinking that, maybe LIV isn’t for my generation(millennial) as well as the older generations. I say if it helps get younger generations interested in golf and entertained by it then great. But unfortunately for now I feel like it’s done nothing but divide the game and cause conflict
But when watching the pga broadcast people bitch and moan about not enough shots, too many commercials, only show the leaders. Can’t really have it both ways. Seems people will complain no matter what.
Venues matter - and they’re playing at places no one cares about
[удалено]
That is some shitty shit talk right there pal
Yeah the pga tour is really lighting it up with venues this week at palm beach gardens and the grand reserve resort in Puerto Rico next week. No one playing at the pebble beaches of the world week in and week out.
At least PGA has Pebble, Sawgrass, Scottsdale, Riviera, Bay Hill, etc on their schedule. LIV literally doesn’t have one historic or prestigious course that anyone cares about.
Shotgun start takes away a lot of the drama people like to see on Sunday
I've admittedly barely looked I to it but I don't get how it's team golf. If they'd have Ryder cup style team golf with 4 somes, greensomes and singles over the 3 dyas.with winners earnings points towards an overall leaderboard which has a champion at the end of the season, this makes way more sense to me. Theres micro drama per weekend as to which teams are going to win their matches and macro drama over the season with natural rivalries from previous seasons carrying over. It's such a no brainer to me.
Not to mention 3 rounds instead of 4. It's just bad, and having to pay a network to air your product shows more people share your view.
It feels like Caddyshack II
Yeah I just can’t stand anything about the whole league. I’m not saying the PGA is perfect but man… all of it drives me crazy, and especially the music (sorry, I’m one of those geezers that isn’t a fan of music out on the course).
I hate music on the course, at the park, and at the beach. I don’t want to hear other people’s shitty music when I’m trying to enjoy the outdoors.
Music is such a personal thing. I wouldn't subject other mfs to my music (I know it sucks but I love it) especially on the golf course.
I couldn’t agree more. In 2020-21 when I played golf I would joke covid was the second worst pandemic of the year next to people blasting Bluetooth speakers on golf courses.
It’s kind of how the NBA is to me now. I want to hear the shoes squeaking and the guys communicating to each other on the court not the music. With golf I love hearing the caddies and golfers discussing their shot strategy and the nuance of the course and finally the sound of the club hitting the ball.
Add my name to the league of “music is personal, outdoor activities are communal.” The whole idea of being polite is about avoiding imposing on others. Don’t play your music aloud on the course, or on the ski slope, or on the train. That’s not old, it’s a kind way to live.
I think as OP mentioned, it’s not music itself but how it’s done. Different songs every hole and really loud on broadcast is not it.
I tuned in early yesterday to watch Anthony Kim. Saw the putting line graphic twice and both times it wasn’t even fucking close lol
The distances were off by multiples on at least 2 of the 4 holes I watched him play. First hole he played on Friday he was in one of the fairway bunkers closest to the tees on 18 after badly topping his 2nd shot, the graphics screen said 114 yards to the pin so the announcers thought he duffed his 3rd which was a safe layup with a mid iron. They clearly can’t keep up with the chaos of the shotgun start at least on the early holes. Then on his second round he was off the green maybe 50 yards from the pin and the graphic was saying 26 feet lol the production is like a shitty video game or something. I hadn’t watched before so I was actually shocked at how bad of a product it actually is. It even seemed like the announcers are holding back their smirks talking about the Cleeks making a run at the Range Rats or whatever the dumb ass teams are called. I thought the haters may have just been coping but nah LIV actually sucks ass lol
Another funny moment was the play by play guy saying Rahm’s never gonna finish outside the top 10 again and correcting himself moments later talking about how what a competitive league LIV is
Noticed that too.
I agree 100%. Wouldn’t waste five min watching that contrived crap.
He’s nailed it. The production is horrible.
I am a gold fan and watch it all. Girls, guys, old men, whatever. I miss the guys that went to LIVso I watch. Insane level of talent on that tour despite what all the haters say.
That's like the definition of lipstick on a pig. The guys are really good players, but they are competing in a product that both sucks and is sportwashing for shitty people. It just doesn't work. And, yes, I know that Nike and Apple profit from virtual slavery in foreign nations and that the us government is aligned with the Saudis. Those things I can not control, but I can control whether I root for them in my leisure time. If the product was decent, I would watch a little bit and then feel disgusted with myself. It's easier for me that I really don't like the product.
Way to completely ignore the point. Players = good, product = hot garbage. Nobody is saying the actual golf is bad.
Yeah if it was laid out like a DP event I’d be pleased. They also have neat tech which I haven’t checked out but for example you can see all of a certain players shotsfor the round in a video on their site. For fee. Thats huge. They also have a lot of shot related data which is cool. The presentation is brutal. Like pxg had a baby with Justin Bieber brutal. But they do show a lot of golf and no commercials and a lot of talented players. Just wish the presentation was a bit more traditional. And ya they eat babies but I’m here for the golf.
You think we’ve all just never given it a chance? I don’t think any of us LIV haters hate it because we never tried watching it. It’s just a fucking awful product.
I’m a giant hater who’s never watched it. Never will either short of Tiger joining
I think its fine. Plus the added advantage i know the players on the leaderboard.
My personal opinion is that it's fine. It's no worse than a standard PGA tour event which is now a very low bar. None of the below is particularly popular on this Subreddit but here goes: Since they play globally i actually get to see some golf in my time zone and prime time. I like the shot gun start because it means the entire round can be over in 5 hrs, current PGA events can be super boring for the first 2 and last 2 hours because there's barely anybody on the course and it gets worse after the cut. Once it gets to Sunday they tend to follow the lead group so you still get the drama. All the noise, colour and scoreboard really has its roots in T20 cricket. Having watched BBL for the last 13 years I think I'm just immune to it all because none of it actually bothers me like it seems to bother Americans. I disagree with the "players don't care" storyline as every other sport in the world is pay to play except maybe tennis. It never sat right with me that a player can turn up to an event (on their own dime) with a crowd and sponsors and go home with nothing. If you play a tournament you should get paid.
This is how I feel. If this was Tiger's league nobody would give a shit about the majority of what they complain about. They are looking for reasons to "hAtE tHe PrOdUcT." PGAT coverage is awful and you need 10 different apps if you want to watch every round of every event. LIV, you just go on the website. Their roster is pretty damn stacked and it's nice that they all play in every event. It's frustrating with the PGAT to even figure out if your favorite players are playing a random tournament. Sure they do a lot of things differently but they aren't deal breakers. A little music in the background? Oh no, imagine being that soft. Less traditional graphics? Fade me now.
Mostly agree. The production stinks, between the pilon (or whatever Arlo calls it) and Foltz in never ending shill mode, it’s awful. Do like the dont blink concept though. The music in the background is annoying as hell and I just can’t get into a shotgun start. The potential is there but being wedded to the “we have to be different “ just doesn’t work for me. Also, the CW? Get a real outlet.
It’s a lot like watching a golf exhibition. If the players are all paid out before they even tee it up, then where’s the stress and drama. Now it’s just watching guys hit stress-free golf shots which…..I mean, there’s other things I’d rather watch.
From what I saw today, I disagree with this take. A win is definitely not as valuable as it would be on the tour, but it’s still competitive golf.
It does have similarities. But a lot of guys explained their LIV decisions as “less golf for more money.” And few (none?) said “I want to win the biggest and best tournaments in the world, and they are LIV tournaments.” So, sure, I think everyone playing golf enjoys shooting lower scores. But none of them have to play well to keep their eligibility and income.
Doesn’t matter. When you are sweating and realize in the back of your mind you have a putt that makes you an extra 500K to a million and moves you up the golf world rankings it adds so much more.
You must hate watching basketball, football, soccer, or hockey then right? Those guys get paid up front, they have nothing to play for I guess.
If you want to say that a LIV event is comparable to the Super Bowl and you’re not joking when you say that, then I’m candidly not interested in the conversation. Try a different argument.
Buddy YOU'RE THE ONE MAKING THAT ARGUMENT. So hypocritical
I call LIV a golf exhibition, then say it’s not at all like the Super Bowl, and to you this is an inconsistent take?
you called LIV an exhibition "because they get paid before they play". Every other major sport, the players get paid before they play. You then say LIV is an exhibition, but everything else (eg. superbowl) isn't. Yeah, you're fucking inconsistent because you have a hate boner for LIV and will do whatever mental gymnastics you need to to continue lying to yourself.
I said LIV sucks bc it’s made up events at bad courses and most of the players said they’re excited about the money. Not one has said they care about winning LIV trophies. You can try to make the whole anti-LIV world your enemy, but my guy, you’re making nearly the entire world your enemy. Look at the joke ratings LIV is getting on the CW network. No one watches, no one cares, and all I can say is you can keep rooting for it to matter one day for some reason (I truly don’t know why any fan would give a shit about LIV), but until that day comes, I guess you’ll be yelling at people on the internet for fun. Enjoy.
> and most of the players said they’re excited about the money. I've never heard of a player signing for a different NFL/NHL/MLB team for the money. NEVER. Continue to be blind to the double standards
How many times has a player said their goal is to win the Super Bowl? How many times has a player said their goal is to win the LIV event in Saudi Arabia?
Dude how are you comparing the Super Bowl to LIV and think your arguments are consistent? Professional athletes can get paid up front and also care about winning at the same time. It’s 100% obvious that every Liv golfer is trying to win. There is stake in winning. It boosts their career and brand. No different from any other professional sport. And yes obviously the fucking Super Bowl is more popular…
The other leagues have history and prestige that comes with winning the major event. None of that is happening at LIV. A win for a LIV event doesn’t mean much at this point, because you don’t have anything historical to compare it to. What does winning five LIV events mean? Is it hard? The money for these guys is primary, sure, fine. But what does winning mean after that?
Yes, because the top pga players are struggling financially… I think some points are fair, like maybe you don’t like music , but to say there is no drama because players are making money is so weird
There’s no drama bc the money is guaranteed. And the entry into the tournament is guaranteed. And only about 10,000 people are tuning in on the CW app. Anyone flying private is probably not too stressed about money. But for the PGAT, that’s only the top 20 or 30 guys. The rest are flying commercial and grinding their way to maintain their eligibility/career.
With that logic Rory should never be stressed while golfing cus he’s already set for life
It's not the money. There is no prestige available to winners of LIV. They didn't play a full 4 days of golf, so nothing they do matters. Each tour win for Rory (or lack of one) continues his narrative, the story of his career. DJ's carrer is over. Nobody will talk about his LIV wins, nobody's going to talk about how well the 4Aces or w/e did a decade from now.
Why do guys keep mentioning Rory as if he’s the only PGAT member? Rory is an outlier on the PGAT. The avg player on tour is on the grind trying to earn money, eligibility, etc.
Because Rory is an example, but it doesn't have to be Rory. Wins mean a lot to many other players at his level.
Tour wins don’t mean anything for Rory…it’s the Majors or nothing for Rory at this point.
PGAT golfers win $0 if they don’t play well. It’s an actual competition with stress and pressure. Rory beating the those guys means he outcompeted them that week.
Do you think money is everything? These are incredibly competitive people, all they've done their entire lives is try and be the best - I don't think they are there on the 18th green, thinking "this putt will win me an extra million"- I think they are thinking "This putt will make be better than that cunt over there". People spend their entire lives preparing to win a small bit of medal at the Olympics, with no pay, that's about the winning, not the money. Many sports stars are paid salaries, I don't think they try any less hard because of it. There are many valid criticisms of LIV, but I really don't buy the prize money argument.
How many golfers grow up saying “I’ve always dreamt of winning a no-cut, shotgun start tournament in Jeddah.” Pretty sure they grow up dreaming of winning at Augusta, Pebble, St Andrews, etc. Those are true competitions.
This is a pretty weak argument considering the league is so young. Nobody has yet grown up considering it. Nobody cares about pebble. People can still grow up wanting to win a major (because these are all but irrelevant as far as the PGA tour goes) and play on liv. The only reason people currently want to play the PGA tour is because it's the biggest tour. Despite what their pr department tells you, it's not the history or the prestige, it's the money. This is changing and if it continues so will young golfer's aspirations. It's not like the PGA tour got where it is today instantly. It was a long process during which they all but destroyed professional golf everywhere else in the world.
The vast majority of LIV have no status in the majors. Only the few who have won one in the past few years have it (or Masters champions who want to play at Augusta). So….the vast majority of LIV is just guys doing what they need to do to earn out their contracts. Look, if you want to knock the PGAT, then I’m good with that. But saying anything remotely positive about LIV is where I’m going to have to strongly disagree with you. We can create an alternative to the PGAT that doesn’t aggressively suck ass.
We're talking about the future. You know, referencing your comment about nobody growing up wanting to play a league that's what, two and a bit years old? I mean sure, I too am surprised that there isn't an 18 month old out there dreaming of playing on liv... So, in the future, if liv continues, it's likely it will get owgr points or majors will introduce an exemption for the top x liv players. In the future, if a merger goes ahead or they do indeed buy a stake off SSG, it's likely that players will be able to play on both tours. At that point they will have a pathway to the majors.
Well, let’s hope for a future that’s better than this car wreck we have now
And all the top players are already rich and set, they don’t need more money so where’s the stress for them?
You don't understand rich, successful people do you? More is a dick measuring contest. That's why they compete. Need is irrelevant.
Same argument can be used for the liv players though. These are highly competitive people, full stop.
But winning doesn't add $ to their bank account. So the stakes are less. They aren't zero. Just less.
What? They still get paid for winning. You're also contradicting your own statement that they're competitive people and therefore want to compete. Why are rich PGA members more competitive than rich liv members?
My mistake. The individual event payment structure is news to me. I guess it's just a shitty product then?
I believe that any money they win reduces their guaranteed money from the Saudis. At least, that was how this started.
Money is how we measure success in our society. LIV players are not competing for money, right? They just are contracted to play, and their compensation is set. If they win a tournament, it reduces their overall compensation. They aren't paid $ 100 million plus their winnings.
They actually are competing for money and what you’re saying is false.
When the tour was founded, if a player had a $100 contract and won a tournament, the winnings for that tournament was subtracted from their guarantee. Did that change?
That was a rumour that hasn't ever been confirmed as far as I'm aware. If it is the case they are still playing for money though? Winning a tournament does not reduce their overall compensation. Who would sign that contract?
That was falsely reported and once again LIV has said players get the money they win on top of their signing bonus. The team money doesn’t go towards the player, but instead goes towards the team as a whole
Uh they are def not paid out. A lot of them are flying commercial, staying in Marriotts, and have less than a year of eligibility in front of them. They have a lot to play for.
You missed where I said the top players lol
Ok well you have to beat more than the top 20 guys in order to win a PGAT event. So not sure how strong of a point that is.
Again where’s the pressure for the top players though when they’re already rich and have their exemptions?
Disagree as I feel its more competitive from audience point of view, as they get all their players compulsorily playing in same events, and theres not many of it (13 events per year). Apparently every top players there would want to win it otherwise they may end up with nothing in their cabinet (heard Rahm swearing couple of times wherever he miss the green or his putts)
Alright, glad you find it exciting! I personally can’t get interested in watching guys play a contrived shotgun start tournament. But I’m only one person after all.
That’s the problem. They can’t decide whether they want to be an exhibition league or legit competition
Yeah, the TV program they produce is terrible. The golfing is good. Somehow they are able to make that shitty. Seems simple enough. Show golfers golfing. Talk a bit about what is happening. All this stuff with teams and on air graphics. All bullshit.
The music is what kills me the most. It's a muddled drone of sound over the TV.
I’m going to a LIV tournament this summer. It’s at the course where my dad works. I’m excited to see all of these guys play. The biggest positive of the tour is the roster. I have no interest in these PGA tournaments that don’t include the big names left on the tour. I wish there were crossover events.
Honestly, the regular PGA Tour events, whilst better, aren't great either. Other than the Majors (especially the Masters), YouTube golf is currently just a better watching experience.
I really enjoy watching the featured groups on ESPN+ You get a real feel for the course and how the players work their way around it.
I’ve heard the “YouTube golf is better” point a few times. What YouTube golf do you mean? I like NLU stuff, but that’s clearly not a substitute for professional tournaments. I’ve seen some Good Good and it’s.. fine. That’s the closest to competitive golf I’ve come across though, and can’t imagine that being what people are talking about.
Bryan Bros, Grant Horvat, BustaJack, GM Golf, Rick Shiels, Peter Finch, Micah Morris and others are pumping out tons of excellent content.
I don’t disagree, but…..is this really our substitute for watching professional golf tournaments played by the best players in the world?
Bob does sports! The most relatable golf content on YouTube for your below average golfer aka me.
Check out Grant Horvat or Micah Morris. Not everything is going to be to your taste, but they have some excellent pure golf content. Rock Shiels and Peter Finch likewise have a moment X of some goofy stuff, but also some genuine content where they play to their best. Ultimately, if you search you'll probably find something to your taste. But the overall difference is YouTubers (the good ones) produce the best possible content they can, with a deeper focus on the golf and meaningful commentary. The PGA Tour is produced for the lowest common denominator with appeasing advertisers always being the primary focus. That's why it so often devolves into a highlights reel with banal commentary. Edit: Downvoted for a perfectly reasonable take. Classic r/golf cunts.
I watched alot of Good Good, GM Golf, Grant Horvet, Micah Morris, Rick Shiels and even Bryson Dechambeau. Their contents are mostly very entertaining and high quality. I even enjoy watching long drive golfer who happened to be scratch golfer (ie Kyle Berkshire), who is capable of smashing 400+ yards off tee and attempting eagle putts. Fun to watch.
Eh, it really depends on what you're looking for. I really, super duper, dislike YouTube golf. I'll get downvoted to hell for this, but they're goofing around too much. I like the drive and struggle that pays off with satisfaction later. I don't play golf for pleasure, which I understand makes me a very small minority, but what we see on the PGA Tour is not pleasurable golf per se, it's satisfying golf. We're watching the payoff of thousands of hours, dozens of years of hard work that result. YouTube golf seems more focused on making sure *that moment* is enjoyable, which is fleeting. Pleasure vs. satisfaction. It's different, for different folks. The problem with LIV is it's neither pleasurable nor satisfying. It's striking right in the middle, which means you need gimmicks to keep it interesting.
Could you elaborate more on your statement about ‘not playing golf for pleasure’? Like where you do it for a living and hate it or you don’t play at all or you play with people for business and hate every minute haha?
Hate it? No, I don't hate it. But I don't play it just to feel pleasure. I'm not in it for the good shots, because there aren't enough of those. I'm in it for the combined score over the course of a season. I prefer to watch my skill improve over a period of time and watch how that impacts my overall game. For example, if I practice my putting a lot, I derive satisfaction out of watching my score drop as a result. Pleasure is rarely sustainable. You're constantly seeking the next high. Satisfaction lasts well beyond the moment you achieve it, because satisfaction represents a longer, concerted effort that was more difficult to achieve. This is a pretty common philosophical distinction, I'm not breaking any new ground here or anything, to be clear.
This reads like an arbitrary line that is more about mental gymnastics than living life. Pleasure is a feeling that can be experienced by many things, including the satisfaction of setting your work pay off. If it works for you that's great. But you're describing pleasure when you say you get satisfaction out of watching the result of your putting practice. Like, you can call it whatever makes you happy internally. But telling other people that you aren't enjoying the things that you are clearly enjoying is a bit weird IMO.
Mental gymnastics for what, though? What am I trying to justify? There's a substantial difference between pleasure and satisfaction, this is taught in introduction to philosophy courses, I didn't make this distinction up. From https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/happiness/: > Whereas hedonists identify well-being roughly with experiences of pleasure, desire theorists equate it with the satisfaction of one’s desires—actually getting what you want, versus merely having certain experiences. But I get it. Thinking about stuff like this is unpleasant for some. That's okay. It's also okay to think about what makes you happy.
That quote isn't saying what you think it is. It is differentiating between how people define their sense of well-being, not saying that having pleasurable feelings is different from satisfaction. You can be pleased by the results of your efforts. A feeling of satisfaction is pleasurable. The point in the quote is defining your self worth by how you feel moment to moment vs defining it by the results of your efforts is the distinction between hedonism and desire theory. From later in the article you linked: >Another reason to focus on emotional condition rather than experience alone may be the greater psychological depth of the former: its impact on our mental lives, physiology, and behavior is arguably deeper and more pervasive. This enhances the explanatory and predictive significance of happiness, and more importantly its desirability: happiness on this view is not merely pleasant, but a major source of pleasure and other good outcomes (Fredrickson 2004, Lyubomirsky, King et al. 2005). Specifically "happiness on this view is not merely pleasant, but a major source of **pleasure**." Why did you have to throw out random insults?
The quote says exactly what I think it does, you're just failing to comprehend it. And these aren't insults, they're observations. You're arguing against the idea of exercise, training, and practice. It's absurd on its face. People don't have to enjoy every aspect (or indeed any aspect) of effort in order to derive satisfaction from its results.
Thanks for telling me what I'm arguing. I got confused. You're so helpful.
If LIV was a 4 day tournament, with purses as big as what they paid the players, it would have taken over the PGAT in a month. What it is now, the players have zero consequences. PGAT: Miss/make a 4 footer which causes to miss/make the cut. That’s fun to watch. LIV: Opps, I missed a four footer. Who gives a fuck! I still make 6 figures. Boring as shit to watch.
The tour could’ve avoided it too I think. Players used to be independent contractors. They were allowed to play whenever and wherever they wanted all over the world. They could’ve allowed them to play in a few Saudi tourneys throughout the year instead of blackballing them from the tour completely.
I went to a match in NJ last year and having techno music on every green kills the golf vibe. It’s like theyre trying to recreate spring break.
Not to mention the putting line is completely wrong. Some holes it'll say "Aim 1 inch left" on the broadcast. The golfer proceeds to aim about 2ft left and it still breaks right of the hole. The whole broadcast just seems like they decided to make it as cheaply as possible
It’s a horrible product. Just unwatchable. And the propaganda- esp the team stuff- is just insufferable.
I would rather clean my flowerbed than watch LIV golf
If LIV format was the 'traditional ' format and the PGA was the new upstart, a lot of complaints would go the other way. Extra 18 holes makes a close finish less likely, no shotgun means the leaders might not be playing at the end, etc. Golf doesn't easily lend itself to broadcasts, I think. Certainly neither program is without some glaring problems. I think why I don't like LIV...they broke the mirage of 'meaningful' events. Events have meaning because we say they do. People get into amateur sports, collegiate sports, lower tier football, etc. Best vs. Best is great, but increasingly I find myself with a hearty 'meh' for it.
The yelling out after every drive is beyond lame. I hope those people get their dicks ripped off.
Never started. Never will.
Disagree, it doesn’t mostly suck, it completely sucks
Golf on tv mostly sucks
I haven’t tried to watch online but I’m excited to go next week to watch in Hong Kong. My plan is to eat drink get drunk and heckle Bryson and AK. I am hoping it will be a lot of fun. Just going on the Fri and maybe sat. Fri I’m in the Gallery Club
Nice, I bet it’s great in person.
Unpopular opinion but I quite like it, I can't stand watching the pga tour only to be interrupted with adverts all of the time it really takes you out of the experience and it makes me lose interest quickly it's nice being able to watch golf without too much interruption and the interruptions they do have are pieces on the players either giving advice or behind the scenes.
IMO watching golf on TV is boring anyway. At least LIV and espn+ show more golf shots. I feel like golf is like hockey or baseball, much more enjoyable in person. Plus the pros play on the weekend when I'd rather just be out there actually playing myself. Maybe if they moved the events to Monday-Thursday I'd get more invested. PGA events are more fun in person if you're a golfer, and LIV is a good time in person even if you're not a golfer.
I’m sorry but what’s so much better being in person where you’re following one group? Or maybe switching to another when they’re nearby. Hockey and baseball are so much better in person because you actually see more than what you get on TV. With golf you see less
> Hockey and baseball are so much better in person because you actually see more than what you get on TV. With golf you see less Respectfully disagree. You've clearly never been to a professional golf tournament in person. It's a completely different experience.
Lmao I’ve been going to tournaments since I was 5 and my father was on the tour so tell me more about what I haven’t seen
Agree to disagree then. I think watching pro golf in person is a lot more interesting than watching on TV and I'm not the only one. Maybe you've got some repressed daddy issues from being dragged to tournaments since you were a kid. Maybe it's just a matter of opinion 🤷♂️
Lmfaoooooo turning to insults because you don’t have a clue is peak Reddit. Watching on tv allows me to see relevant shots from leaders which you can’t do on a golf course. You can’t just teleport from hole to hole in person man.
Do you not have a phone?
And here’s how I know you haven’t been to quality tournaments. They don’t let you take your phone on the course.
Literally every major except the masters allows phones...
Ok so you’ve only been attending golf tournaments post Covid. Thanks for clarifying
So it all sucks but the golf itself? Gotcha.
Haha Abe Ancer. That’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time. Fuck them all
I figured someone would chirp me for that. He’s one of the few players like me, a short Mexican from Texas.
We knew all this already
I appreciate you for chiming in
For me it’s shorts. Feels like watching college golf.
Plenty to complain about with LIV but I'm on board with shorts. It's fucking hot out, let em wear what they want within reason.
Same this is the only thing I like about LIV
I watched my first 30min today...
When we look at the tours offering this week and last, LIV is far more entertaining of a field. The golf is good. The background music is horrible. The graphic are similar to F1, it’s not mainstream
It’s fun to see in person. Music playing, free putting games with prizes. Beers flowing
I’ve been to 3 FedEx cup championships at TPC Boston, sitting front and center with free food and booze. Liv was more relaxed
Yeah this is a fair analysis, it’s kind of interesting that they’ve chosen to prioritize the in person attendance versus the TV product. If I wasn’t morally opposed to financially supporting the product (not having a debate over gas or other products, watching a golf tournament in person is a complete luxury compared to other things I buy with Saudi influence) I’d probably try to go watch one.
Yeah I mean it seems like places like Australia are the golden ticket for them because the crowds looked huge in Adelaide. But those kinds of places have been largely neglected by the PGAT and note they can see some of these big name players in person
Production was horrible, loud and bouncing all over with a chaotic environment. PGA was calm, smooth and easy to watch.
You mean you're not going to buy a "Crushers" or "Fireballs" jersey with the cool Clipart logos?!
It’s just corny. Everything about it is corny.
I think it’s trash and I am genuinely surprised that it has as much support as it does.
My favourite is that there’s basically no spectators at this Jeddah event and they’re still playing music lol. Like who’s that for? The players?
LIV sucks to watch and guess what, so does the PGA. Why? Because golf is boring to watch
Thoughts from someone who watched 2 years before you: Your points are poorly based and wrong.
I like watching really good golfers, so I found it pretty decent. I like how it has no ads and is live streamed. I like the announcer personalities.
Bot.
Knee jerk reaction to anything you disagree with. Typical PGAStan.
Bot.
Lol. I almost feel bad for you.
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I don’t think the kids care about pro golf outside of majors. Just judging by their conversations and stuff they mimic in practice they’re way more into youtube golf than pro golf by a mile.
Not interested
Agreed with points 1 and 2. The F1-esque leaderboard is awful.
Spot on. A lot of great talent being wasted. They need to reboot.
Yeah it just sucks. Can’t watch more than 5 minutes. The leaderboard is nauseating
Only ever caught like the 3rd event when Brandon Grace caught fire at the end against Ortiz or some other Mexican player. It was whatever and haven’t had the calling to ever watch again.
I’m just surprised with how they have all of that money, and yet their production is easily the worst of any nationally televised sport. The god damn ESPN cornhole championship even blows them out of the water in that regard.
Wow, sizzling hot takes here
Feeling brave today, are we
What a brave and original stance.
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My apologies. I should’ve consulted with you prior to posting.
People discussing golf on r/golf. Shocking
Oh look, it's another PGA bot-farm LIV hate post. How much are y'all getting paid for this?
Beep boop beep I ❤️ Jay Monohan
You mostly suck
It just makes me sad when I check in on a broadcast and am reminded that Feherty is in golf commentary exile. I'm sure he feels fine, though 💰
I liked when LIV came to "Boston" and that shit was half the state away near Worcester. The players are good, but everything about the production is bush league.
its bad on tv, better In real life
Some of it does have potential. The shotgun format makes it seem more like a singular “golf match” rather than endless golf like the PGA tour. The announcers r good, but the camera’s, angles, overall filmography is clearly a step behind the PGA on golf channel/nbc. Also, halfway through the screen just started shaking. They do play for something by the way the lowest team gets relegated like soccer.
I just can’t comprehend the fact that they think (or maybe some portion of the audience thinks?) that music + wearing shorts = more fun from a viewing perspective
I tried watching it today too. The graphics are just outrageously bad. They remind me of a teenager getting photoshop for the first time and going wild.
The problem with the shotgun start is that the broadcast pretty much feels like a highlight show of shots instead of an unfolding story. A good leaderboard with the contenders all over the course finishing at the same time just falls flat. There’s no back 9 drama to develop because there is no back 9.
Agreed with point 2 where music doesn't really work for TV broadcast, they should find a way to fix it. For point 1, its really subjective thing. For example I thought the F1 like graphics are interesting, the team format also helps create a buzz and apparently I thought they are appealing to the younger audience. For me my biggest complain is that they don't get to show more coverage of some of my favourite golfers, its like the highlights from editor choice all the time. Other than that, I thought the whole event was good to watch, different from traditional golf (which I get why some people hate), but more intense and fun.
I just prefer large fields (120+). The underdog can come thru, it establishes new stars better and keeps the veteran stars on top of their game. I think almost all of the LIV players, even the captains, are trying to keep their game in tip top shape, but the fact is that even on the PGA Tour you would get players that coasted once they knew their Tour card was safe. I worked with one client about 10 years ago and after some strong finishes I told him his card was safe after Pebble Beach and it was obvious to me that he basically didn't give a crap and coasted the rest of the season. To try and make me believe that nobody is doing that on LIV with those massive contracts is just being naive. But anybody that remembers when Greg Norman tried to put together a 'world tour' back in '94 they knew what he was trying to do back then and rejected it. Greg was nearing the twilight of his career and wanted to continue to secure his top spot in the world rankings even though his play was slipping. It's just that he didn't have the financial backing he has today. And since his ego is so big, he's now using this as part of his vendetta against the PGA Tour and all of those players that saw what he was trying to do back 30 years ago.
Golf is such a niche sport and acquired taste to watch. Only hardcore golfers can watch it on tv for more than an hour. I don’t care what stars go to LIV - it’s just not an entertaining product. They may as well be playing flag football at this point. Just not going to watch it for more than a minute.
Shotgun is my biggest pet peeve. I mean, championship holes are just that. The intensity and drama. None of that with this format if you end your tourney on the 2nd hole. I like the leaderboard thingy, reminds of F-1.
I’m a big fan of LIV. The format, the players, I really have no complaints at all. PGA tour has felt stale for a while.