I think Norman always banked on OWGR changing simply because they had recognizable names - and he also hoped they’d have closer to all of the top 20 players. The obvious hypothetical is, what if someone starts a tour with the best 48 players. They only play each other and no one can play their way onto the tour and no one gets kicked out. Sure, year 1 everyone agrees those players are all great and those are meaningful wins. But what about 7 years later and those same 48 players are still playing only amongst themselves? Surely, no one can say those are still the top 48 players and there’s no way to equitably measure the level of competition in those closed events.
Yep, the longer LIV goes without OWGR the less and less likely LIV is going to succeed in any meaningful way. I still think the main motivation for the Saudis was to leverage their way into part ownership of the Tour. Their unwillingness to release their financials required for anti-trust purposes ultimately put the kibosh on that. Maybe they will back off on that but I kind of doubt it.
Meanwhile, other names are cropping up on the Tour and growing their own brands. The Saudis can continue to buy more of those guys out but how long are they willing to do this dance when the endgame continues to push itself further and further down the road?
Hoping the PGA Tour can just continue to stick this out.
LIV’s last line of defense are the same 12 accounts that post underneath any PGA Instagram post saying “who??? Why even have a no name tournament??” I always wonder if they’re getting paid too.
I think they also fail to realize how that isn't really all that detracting. I like fresh blood. Even before all those guys bolted to LIV I usually rooted for the guy that had never won before. Maybe it takes away from those first wins a little but that doesn't bother me much.
Granted there are a lot of people that like big names playing. They want to see Spieth and Rahm paired up at the top of the leaderboard on Sunday but there are plenty of people who don't need that to enjoy golf.
Yeah I’m tuning in to see great shots and crazy comebacks. I don’t need to see big names every weekend (although Rickie winning last year was fuckin dope for everyone). Let the young blood and no names shine. Knapp’s explosion into the scene is a prime example of something LIV could never hope to do.
Right? I always annoy my girlfriend with all the details of how this PGA win is going to change this one guys life immediately and how cool it is to witness. Immediately gets all major invites, immediately gets stability on tour he fought years for, a completely life changing moment is so much fun to watch. LIV is not. But they did have Anthony kim beat that one guy last week.
You need both to exist really. The superstars help market the sport and bring casuals in, and they also make it all the more impressive when somebody new does take them down and win.
Oh I agree. PGA ratings are definitely down mostly due to big names leaving. Which begs to question what's going to break first? Looks like the PGA was on the cusp of breaking but anti-trust issues maybe halted things.
Oh I forgot about that deal. It was Arthur Blank's organization wasn't it? I wasn't under the impression that was fully enough to offset the losses but maybe that does give the PGA Tour enough to hold on a little while longer.
Which I hope they do.
PGA ratings are down because ratings are down for every single television broadcast that isn't the NFL. Welcome to the content on demand/post COVID era.
yeah like uh fresh blood is how people become big names in the first place lol
When Rory and Speith first came on the scene they were nobodies winning events too lol
This.
A lot of sports would be terrible without the elite players. Golf has so much depth of great players that very few people could recognize that it takes away from that void.
It only takes a few years for new names and stories to take their place.
A good example is the PGAT losing Rahm but gaining Min Woo Lee, arguably more popular and exciting to watch. I'd still like to see some of those big names playing in majors but otherwise I don't really mind.
> The Saudis can continue to buy more of those guys out but how long are they willing to do this dance when the endgame continues to push itself further and further down the road?
You'll hear a lot of people say the Saudis have practically infinite money, so they don't care. But I would think that at some point, even they are going to evaluate the ROI for LIV. At this point, I'm willing to bet that it won't be considered worth it.
I think they thought their money would go further and players would he jumping ship for less. A billion spent already and guys like matsuyama turning down 300M, Fowler turns down almost a hundo.
I think this is spot on. Over 4 years they’re going to pay about a billion dollars for Phil, Rahm, Cam, DJ, Koepka, and Bryson just in appearance fees - and not even counting the money they’ll win on course. Yes, they’ve got a ton of money to light on fire but I’m sure they thought for $1B they could have gotten far more current top players - and not just a pile of top players from 2010 like Bubba, Sergio, Westwood, Casey, Kaymer, Poulter, McDowell, Stenson, etc
And the value of the purchases they did get will depreciate _fast_. While new names will rise on the PGAT. Every second that goes on with people still not caring who wins on LIV, makes the value of those names less.
The PIFs best outcome is that the framework agreement actually comes to fruition, so they can slowly dismantle LIV or reposition it as a new product supplementing the PGAT.
It is not going to be viable product on its own.
6 months ago I would have agreed with you. Now, not so much…. Watching the PGA tournament this past weekend was like watching a Corn Ferry tournament. Other than Lowery…. The leader board was unrecognizable.
LIV has all the names, and I feel like LIV doesn’t need the OWGR.
OWGR also has a second mandate to grow the game and make sure talent is able to rise through the ranks.
LIV's made some minor concession towards the second part, but it's fundamentally at odds with the business model that is trying to create scarcity to make the 'teams' expensive assets.
OWGR could figure out how to rank players if they still played enough rounds outside LIV. We have the analytics for that, but if you aren't part of the long term ability to rank golfers than you don't qualify.
That's fair imo.
Well one you have the portion of the population that lives on being contrarian and then two you had Saudi bots/shills trying to control the conversation
The 54 holes is also a root of the issue as OWGR requires 72 hole events. That's why the PGA Champions Tour doesn't give points. The no cut isn't that big of an issue IMO but the length of tournament is.
No it’s not. As has been said ad nauseum . Same reason the PGA tour is adding 54 hole events
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/owgr-approves-gira-de-golf-for-world-ranking-inclusion-liv-golf-waits/amp
>ELIGIBLE FORMATS
>All the formats below relate to Individual Tournament Play. Where a tournament includes a team element, only the individual element of the tournament will be eligible for inclusion in the OWGR System.
>Stroke Play
>**Standard format: 72 holes – may consist of rounds of less than 18 holes.**
>Non-standard format for tournaments anticipated to earn no more than 5.4 First Place Points based on the estimated Field Rating of the tournament: 54 holes – may consist of rounds of less than 18 holes.
It's pretty clear. I'm guessing this tour wont award more than 5.4 points to the winners.
https://www.owgr.com/how-the-ranking-works
That's a OWGR issue, not a LIV issue. Length of tournament is one of the easiest obstacles to work around when calculating points. It really makes no difference, it could be a 6 hole tournament if they wanted to, just pro-rata the points.
Norman is an egotistical idiot, thought with Saudi money he could bludgeon everyone into doing what he wants. OWGR is based on traditional 72 hole events. If the concept was 54 holes from the beginning this was always going to be a problem.
Also, OWGR told LIV *specifically* what they had to do in order to qualify for points. “Play 72 holes” was *not* one of them. A lower number of holes would result in fewer points per event, yes, but when someone tells you “do these things to get what you want” and you respond with “nope,” you don’t get what you want.
Ironically you see a lot of ***exactly this*** in competitive chess. The top professional tournaments are invitationals, which creates a huge incentive to being a top 10 player. Once you're "in the club," you're essentially trading rating with the other top players and there's reduced risks associated with losses. In contrast, entering an open tournament runs the risk that you suffer a bad loss against a low-rated opponent and your ranking falls dramatically.
Of course, the critical distinction is that the **chess ratings still apply to invitational tournaments**. If you're a top-10 player and continue to suffer losses, your rating will fall and you will eventually drop out of the top 10. With LIV, the organizers failed to make sure that their top players could preserve their rankings by creating a system that did not punish poor performance. OWGR understandably does not want to allot rating points if there is not a sufficient "penalty" for performing badly.
LIV could have introduced a hybrid system wherein they created multiple mini-majors during the season. The tournaments would feature their top talent, which would create a high field rating, but also allow their top players to essentially farm one another for rating. It comes with the risk that some of your talent will drop in the OWGR, but there's no free lunch here... top players have to consistently perform at the top level to remain "top."
Like you said they wouldn’t be the best 48 players for long. Truthfully you can never hold on to the “best” golfers in the world because it changes constantly. You can only get a snapshot.
Agreed! Some make the argument that with the “best golfers in the world” leaving for LIV, then the PGA Tour will be boring, but any golfer that can make the Tour is going to be an amazing golfer who’s fun to watch. We’ll forget about the old “best” golfers playing at LIV and learn to love the new “best” golfers.
There’s so much talent that’s up and coming that won’t want to just go play for LIV. The Tour will be fine as long as they continue to make improvements to their player pay.
I wonder how this whole thing would have gone if they didn't use Greg Norman. He's a liar and an asshole and I think a lot of the venom was simply about people hating him personally.
Not even 7 years later. Guys have great years and then fall off quick and then sometimes they bounce back. Look at Justin Thomas- a couple years ago, he was a top 3 player, but last year he plummeted, now he has bounced back some. Guys like Jon Rahm really only have to worry about approx 10 guys on the LIV tour.
The point of LIV golf was never to supplant the PGA tour. The saudis aren’t making money on LIV golf. It’s a leverage play to force the PGA into a partnership with them. The hammer is “ we will take your best players by paying them stupid amounts of money”……..and it’s working. Most of golf’s most recognizable names are playing LIV golf and as a result, the PGA is trying to negotiate a deal with them.
Maybe Yasir would like a deal, but it’s clear he wants LIV (or the framework of it) still around. The hard part is that if that’s the case, where do you fit it on the schedule? You can’t just say “well, do the elevated events” because I doubt we *really* want to turn the Arnold Palmer into a 54 hole team golf event. You could do it in the fall or early season leading into the Players and the Masters, but again, guys are bitching about the wrap-around schedule already.
As for Norman, there’s nothing more he wants than the PGA Tour to bend the knee after the whole WGC debacle (which was absolutely mid IMO)
The Norman World Tour debacle had virtually the same issue as LIV, namely that it was an insurgent entity designed to eventually replace the PGA Tour. If it had been designed like the WGC events in conjunction with the existing tours (and more importantly revenue share with them), then I’m sure it would have been less of an issue – the same goes for LIV. The issue has always been that Greg Norman’s longtime goal is to end up running professional golf through his own tour.
yeah would love to understand the downvotes - the PIF wants to hobnob with the people that attend sponsor these tournaments - not the mash potatoes people, the ones in the suites.
Seems like they were never going to get the points anyways. Although I love to see what Joaquin Niemann has been doing and how he has been playing his ass off. Not getting points to qualify? OK play good enough that enough people recognize and you’re making some waves and get an invite that way.
Exactly. Niemann has played the system in a way that was available not just to him but any LIV player who didn't have Euro Tour sanctions hanging over them.
Even those with sanctions could just suck it up and pay them and then they could compete on the European Tour again, it's not like paying the fines would be a problem to even LIV players that got a lesser signing bonus.
Exactly like Wiesberger. I’m not really sure the sanctions would’ve stuck in a court of law but he accepted the fines, paid them, and is now back on the DPWT
I'm just wondering if Niemann now has to pay a fine for each LIV tournament he plays while there is a DPWT event the same week, seeing that he has taken up membership.
I'm shocked the "the mena and asian tours are totally feeder systems that allow for qualification and bumping up our average field size so we can comply with the rules but not really since we have guaranteed contractual spots to players and by the way we don't want to wait a year, do it now or else we threaten you with bad press if we don't get our way" angle didn't work.
I'm especially interested in how "working with the governing bodies of the four majors to get more LIV players involved" is going to go. ANGC famously is not someone you ask for anything, two of the other three are OPENS with well defined qualifying, and the other is run by the PGA (not the PGA Tour obviously but still). Niemann is a great example of how LIV players can get into the majors, as he will be playing in the Master's and the PGA Championship.
Not exactly. Yes, the USGA, ANGC and PGA of America are represented but the board is mainly comprised of representatives of the PGA Tour, the PGA European tour, the International Federation of PGA tours, and the R&A which hold a majority of the voting shares and understandably have an interest in protecting their own brand of golf over accepting LIV into the club.
That is my understanding as well.
While the tours may have been involved in conversations with the sponsors of the four majors, ultimately it was the majors that made the decision on what the criteria would be for LIV to get points (and LIV decided that they wouldn't do what was asked of them to get points).
If the majors felt they were missing out of well-deserving LIV players, it’s a really easy fix. They alone control their qualification criteria. The majors could just say the top X number of players from the previous year’s individual LIV standings qualify or something specific to their LIV performance. The most “egregious” example of a good player missing out at the moment is Talor Gooch. Despite what he thinks, the majors probably aren’t going to revise their criteria just for him. If more objectively good players are missing out, then they surely will reevaluate.
That’s exactly it. If the majors wanted the LIV golfers (who aren’t already qualified) they would change their qualifications in a second. But as it stands, every LIV golfer who moves the needle even a little bit is qualified already, so there’s not really a reason to change anything.
Niemann is already the test case, he is clearly playing well, dping it not just on liv, so both augusta and the pga championship gave him an invite. The majors can invite any player they want it. If liv players were truly in it for the cause of LIV, Niemann and the other liv players that are qualified lile Rahm, cam, dj, Bryson, would skip the majors until LIV gets guaranteed qualifying spots.
But, as these Liv players have shown they are only in it for themselves no chance they band together to force the majors hand so they won't get that power
Nothing is stopping Gooch or other guys from going through qualifying for the Open and US Open. Qualify, win, and then they are set. If they really are top ten in the world players but for their lack of owgr points, qualifying the hard way should be easy for them.
For every moment that goes by without the majors budging, they have less and less incentive to do so as the the value if those players as an addition to their product declines.
I wonder if LIV players could get their PGA Teaching Pro certifications, give some lessons at a club that sponsored them, and qualify for the PGA Championships via the PGA Professional Championship?
nah - nothing that exists today is going to replace the masters /us open/ open championship. too much history and pagentry. plus LIV doesnt really have anyone that moves the needle for casuals? maybe Phil/Rahm/DJ/Bryson but they aren't tiger or Rory.
I love that Norman is still trying to play victim in his comments, trying to make the OWGR out to be the bad guy even though they pointed out that LIV just doesn't follow the rules that everyone uses....and has used for years......and continues to use.
Norman lied to all of these guys and I just don't feel bad for them at this point. Niemann proved that LIV golfers can get an invite if they actually work outside of their bubble and prove that they can qualify, while people like Gooch showed that all they are good at is crying and finger pointing.
As a fan, it sucks to see everyone not playing together but LIV victim blaming just proves how bad of a product it is.
Seriously. When the organization that qualifies players for majors using a points system goes with “do these things for points,” and you state that you aren’t doing them, what exactly do you expect is going to happen?
Norman thought he could create a rival tour but in order to get the marquee players he had to make promises that compromised the OWGR minimum standards.
Very Greg like in retrospect.
It’s funny that they all took the money to play less golf but once they drop in the owgr unless they have exemptions they have to play more golf than on the tour to keep their owgr up for the majors. They gooched it
Man I really thought when they got Rahm , he was going to join under the condition they at least make some changes to the format to get ranking points. (4 days , a cut , qualifying criteria)
Then they go all AK and make it even more of an exhibition , not really sure I see the end game anymore.
Would anyone protest if the end goal was to get OWGR points instead of currently where they are dropping into oblivion.
So what does the PIF fund have planned for its war with the OGWR , sue them , buy them (can you buy them ? sure everything has a price or a mechanism money can fix)
The top post in this thread answers this perfectly. It's too much of a closed shop for the OWGR, the very essence of what they are trying to be goes against "growing the game"
LIV keeps spending big bucks to buy PGA winners and then the world just moves on to see who the next winner will be.
I like competitive golf. LIV is the opposite of that.
Talor Gooch has entered the conversation.
And his take is as stupid as you would anticipate it to be.
https://twitter.com/flushingitgolf/status/1765069822550012392
All they had to do is exactly what they did but then just play 72 hole tournaments all over the world. LIV would be a serious threat if they hadn't tried all the dumb shit they are trying to be different. One of the all time blunders. Absolutely shit themselves in the foot.
Yep. They refuse because they'd have to change every fundamental detail of how players enter the league, their competition and the length of the tournament.
LIV made a decision and doesn't like the consequences. Boo hoo.
They didn't have to change the length of events, that was not one of the criteria. I don't even think they had to really change invites.
What they had to change was the idea of having the same exact field every event for a year.
Not if you believe the comments from Jordan and Tiger following the PGA Tour/SSG partnership announcement a little over a month ago. While a lot of the PGA/LIV dealings have been kept from the public, I do trust those two guys when they say that no progress was being made between the PIF and PGAT. According to Jordan, even if progress does start happening at some point, which there's no indication that it will, a deal will still be a long ways off (we're talking a year or so, at minimum) due to all of the protocol they will have to go through to finalize any deal. That includes getting the DOJ to sign off on it, which sounds pretty questionable since the PIF isn't keen on opening up their books for anyone.
I don't get that feeling at all from this report. The quotes indicate the opposite of that in my opinion.
OWGR says that LIV tournament formats aren't comparable to the other tour formats. So they don't have a method to rank them on the same playing field, thus why so many elite LIV players have tanked in the rankings.
LIV says that their elite players aren't being ranked in a reasonable fashion and it isn't fair to the players to get penalized for playing on this new tour.
Seems like LIV didn't properly vet that the rankings would accommodate their format and OWGR hasn't figured out a way to be flexible enough to appropriately rank LIV players alongside PGA/others.
tldr: professional golf is in a terrible place for spectators and it isn't showing signs of improving any time soon.
It has to. Owgr points was something allegedly promised to the players, and giving up that fight would be a signal for others that they just don't care.
The deal must be close enough that it doesn't matter anymore because the liv guys will be able to play pga tour events.
Yea something is definitely going on especially after all the whining coming from the LIV crew. This is the part I despise about all the LIV/PGA drama , all the back room double dealing, backstabbing nonsense
> whining coming from the liv crew
That's been Greg Norman's schtick for 30 years about an alternative professional tour. I really doubt the complaining is an indication that something different will be happening soon.
You didn’t read what he said. He said that OWGR isn’t going to work with them and they’ve exhausted all attempts to get them to change their mind.
“Even if LIV Golf events were immediately awarded points, the OWGR system is designed such that it would be functionally impossible for you to regain positions close to the summit of the ranking, where so many of you were prior to joining LIV, and deserve to remain based on your performance.”
He’ll continue to work toward getting players into majors but that’s all he can do for now.
Considering the OWGR is made up of the majors and the pga/dp tour, I think that the Masters and PGA Championship giving Niemann special exemptions indicates the exact opposite.
The OWGR as a whole won't be giving LIV ranking points because they won't comply with the established rules and they've tried to half-ass it for more than a year. So, individual majors will decide how to deal with it on their own.
Niemann, Gooch, Hatton are really the only ones that have an argument that don't already have a couple years of exemptions stacked up anyway.
That's certainly not how Greg Norman's comments read.
It sounds like they are going to try to work directly with the majors themselves (which is weird because that's exactly who was making the decisions about OWGR) instead of through OWGR.
My take on it is that LIV has decided that the things they need to to do in order to qualify for OWGR points is something that would be too damaging to their business model (if we can call it that) AND that public pressure will eventually force OWGR to cave and come crawling back to them.
I agree.
I mean, look at the OWGR, Keith Pelley and Jay Monahan said they were staying out of it. I'd also assume Keith Waters is staying out of it. So, you're left with the four majors. The PGA and ANGC gave special exemptions to a player that went out of his way to play in non-LIV events and performed.
With this statement from LIV, I'm betting the USGA and R&A told LIV to pound sand - you can go qualify. Except, when given the chance, the loudest complainer (Gooch) didn't even try to qualify for the US Open.
Yep. The invites from ANGC and the PGA to Joaquin basically said to the Talor Gooch's of the world: "Go out and win some real events, and we will be happy to invite you."
ANGC certainly isn't going to invite Gooch because he wined.
The competition in any Asian Tour event is significantly higher than any LIV "invitational".
Anthony Kim wouldn't qualify to even show his face at an Asian Tour stop.
LIV is weird, I think the only way it would be interesting is if the legends were team captains, and you qualify for these team events through a sanctioned events throughout the world. It could exist as something additive. I think there should be more match play as part of it.
The best guys at LIV are some of the best in the world, so that's not a surprise.
The average level across the player base is not even comparable, Asian Tour blows LIV out of the water.
>*Norman really sucks at management and always has.*
No, that'd be **Jay Monahan**.
LIV GOLF may have ever even come into existence in the first place without Monahan calling the shots over at the PGA as badly as he has.
Watch and learn.
Next.
I really don't care whether LIV succeeds or not. If they want to do their own thing, so be it. However, all this whining, crying, and devisive rhetoric is terrible for the game of golf overall, and they started it by buying out all these top ranked players to defect from the PGA Tour. If you want to take a bag to play in an exhibition league with a different format, then so be it, but don't destroy the tour that helped you make a name for yourself.
Matt Fitz on OWGR. I know he is a big data guy. Maybe this will help some of you see what so many others can see.
“I don’t think the world rankings are a true representation of the golf game at the minute. I don’t really look at them or pay attention to them anymore. I don’t think they’re right. So I look at @datagolf as a better representation of how people are playing in the world in my opinion. I think it’s partly a sign that there’s plenty of depth on here which we’ve known that for years on the PGA Tour, there’s always been a lot of strength and depth, but I certainly think nowadays the ranking side of it is a little bit skewed.”
It's pretty fresh and I think it was on golf channel's golf today segment.
Here is a X post about it. I would expect more articles to show up about this over the next week.
https://twitter.com/NUCLRGOLF/status/1765117788199293325?s=19
Well thanks for sourcing it at least. Interesting where you left out him saying he understands why LIV doesn't get OWGR points...
LIV fans seem to think there's some grand conspiracy against them when in reality the OWGR has laid out exactly what its issues are with giving LIV points and LIV has elected to do nothing to make itself compliant. It has a long term stagnation issue that is going to make it impossible to rank guys with the rest of the world when ever other tour has player churn.
We are past the point of 'why' they are not included. We are now at the point, owgr is not a true representation of golf at the moment. That is the point to draw from Fitz.
It is not some grand conspiracy , lol. And if you really think LIV did nothing to try and meet owgr in the middle, you're just keeping your head in the sand.
The current trend is players who are at the top of their game (e.g. Rahm winning masters) move to LIV. If the majors continue to use owgr, over time the majors will need shift away from owgr. Fans wanna seethe best play. It's really not that complex.
I think another hint we got recently was from Hovlands comment about being paid accordingly (fairly).
https://twitter.com/NUCLRGOLF/status/1763940290421785013?s=19
“Now, money is important and everyone needs to get paid accordingly, in a fair way, but I don’t think that needs to be like the driving force behind this, or the story every single week.”
Players are realizing they have a 'value', and Hovoland is right that winning an event like Memorial has its own value. But overtime players like him will want to get their fair share of money.
Just my opinion. I am often wrong.
> The current trend is players who are at the top of their game (e.g. Rahm winning masters) move to LIV. If the majors continue to use owgr, over time the majors will need shift away from owgr. Fans wanna seethe best play. It's really not that complex.
The problem with this line of thinking is that the absolute best players already have major exemptions for the most part. Rahm just won the masters, he doesn't have to worry about OWGR for the majors for quite some time. Never again in the case of Augusta. Who is being "left out" of the majors currently?
Here is the 2024 exemption list:
Masters: Sergio Garcia, Dustin Johnson, Phil Mickelson, Patrick Reed, Charl Schwartzel, Bubba Watson, Bryson DeChambeau, Brooks Koepka, Cameron Smith.
PGA Championship: Martin Kaymer, Koepka, Mickelson, DeChambeau, Johnson, Smith.
U.S. Open: DeChambeau, Kaymer, Koepka, Johnson, Mickelson, Smith.
British Open: Louis Oosthuizen, Henrik Stenson, Mickelson, Smith, DeChambeau, Johnson, Koepka.
Moving away from owgr points and to the majors. I think that is a really strong point. Currently, for the most part, majors should work out for the fans.
My wife loves Gooch, I wonder why, lol. He won't really be missed at any majors this year. A few fans will miss yelling his name (my wife) or watching him play (me) at majors. I watched his bunker shot ok hole three at Sentosa and quiet enjoyed it. He had three wins on LIV, not easy to do.
I think the risk for the majors is more long-term. And to be honest the risk could be hyped up. Time will tell.
Be interesting to see how the players and commentators handle this at the next LIV event. They've been pushing so hard to talk about recognition at every opportunity I'm actually shocked LIV had just given up mid season.
I wonder if some other big news is going to be announced that'll make the conversation moot.
LIV should create a second tour. That tour should operate like the pga tour or any other, with a Q school, regular 4 day tournaments with a cut, etc.
Then, everyone on that tour should be part of a stable of golfers for each team on LIV. For example, the 4 aces would have 10 golfers on this second tour. Each LIV tournament, DJ could then promote and relegate golfers from the tour to his team. LIV obviously has the money to do this, they just gave Rahm 600 million. They can run a 2nd tour with payouts higher than the Korn Ferry Tour and likely even some do world tour events.
This does a few things:
1. It ensures you actually have good golfers on LIV
2. It creates drama to see who is playing each event.
3. It makes LIV an open system, so the OWGR can be satisfied that competition is strong and points can be rewarded
4. It emphasizes the team aspect of LIV, extending the teams down to the 2nd tour as well. Imagine the 4 Aces with 14 golfers instead of 4.
5. It would attract golfers from the dp world tour and Korn Ferry tour, putting a dent in the pga tour player feeder system.
6. It gives us, the fans, more golf, with 14 LIV events plus 10-20 additional events throughout the year.
Greg if you’re reading this, shoot me a DM. I’m bored at work and could use a new job. My sign on bonus will be slightly less than Koepka’s.
It's unfortunate that all this nonsense has completely removed any interest I have in professional golf other than the majors. YouTube golfers are more fun, and the arguments over millions of dollars is getting old.
I just have lost interest in the PGA and I've tried to watch LIV half a dozen times. It's boring and kind of dumb.
There's no one that pulls me in any longer on either tour. If Tiger somehow was able to stay healthy and be competitive again, I'd watch. But other than the majors, there's no must see TV anymore.
I have nothing against the guys who went to LIV. Honestly I don’t have a whole lot against LIV itself either. I’ll tune sometimes and will actually get a bit invested.
The one thing that really bothers me is selfishly the golf fan community is being robbed of seeing all the best players in the world compete against each other on a semi regular basis. The PGA is still putting out a fine product, but there are times I’ll be watching these events and can’t help but wonder what it would be like if DJ, Koepka, Dechambeau, Rahm, etc, etc would be playing there as well.
I have a feeling that there'll be an announcement soon along the lines of LIV having X number of spots in the majors or something. I doubt they've just given up on this, it's most likely there's been a deal struck behind closed doors
Time for the majors to change selection criteria to Data Golf.
Bewilders me that Data Golf can include LIV golf in rankings but OWGR can't or should I say won't.
**The OWGR is a mostly useless world golf ranking mechanism at this point.**
As such, if the four majors were *smart*, they should mostly just ignore the OWGR and simply modify or create their own admission criteria to specifically allow for inviting a capped number of top LIV Golf players (who are *not* already past major champions) to their annual major tournaments.
The four majors should not care *in the least* what the PGA or OWGR think or want, and should be solely focused on maintaining the integrity and quality of their *own* annual championship events, so that *all* the very best players in the world are given fair opportunity to participate and get showcased on their global stage.
This is something the organizers of the four majors would be wise to address *now, and immediately*, without any further delay.
Failure to do so will undoubtedly lead to their major annual tournaments failing over time, in the eyes of both fans, viewers, and players alike.
Watch and learn.
Next.
>*Greg? Is that you?*
Nope, just common sense and reality, kid.
Both of which usually result in failure if not practiced.
Pro golf is no different.
Do your homework.
Next.
Surely one of the Majors will eventually give in and use an OWGR alternative like the TUGR.
OWGR was created because the system before it stopped working. From Wikipedia:
“The initiative for the creation of the Official World Golf Ranking came from the Championship Committee of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews, which found in the 1980s that its system of issuing invitations to The Open Championship on a tour by tour basis was omitting an increasing number of top players because more of them were dividing their time between tours”
Now if the OWGR isn’t fit for purpose move onto something else.
I have no idea to be honest. The issue I see, and what OWGR has laid out, is that LIV has no player churn to make sure that the competition stays high. If a small group of guys only ever plays each other and the worst guys aren't replaced by new ones, then you eventually end up with a self sustaining ecosystem where guys are just trading OWGR points back and forth. Probably not an issue in the early days but these guys will get older and worse over time and without any new blood to challenge them it becomes impossible to assess them fairly.
Well if the competition degrades the “strength of field metric” should reflect this and award fewer points for playing on LIV.
TUGR claim to be able to do it but I don’t completely understand- https://tugr.org/method
>Well if the competition degrades the “strength of field metric” should reflect this and award fewer points for playing on LIV.
Yes but if there aren't new, lower ranked players coming in and beating the higher ranked guys, it's not really possible to tell how much the strength of the field is changing. High level chess has this issue.
Good for Norman really. It seems common among most pro golfers now that OWGR are a bit of a joke. So by pulling his fight to get points it kind of reaffirms the point that OWGR is useless and they don't even want them anymore. When LIV was fighting to get points for their players it made the OWGR a bit more relevant.
With all the $Billions the Saudi’s have, why didn’t they started one from the Beginning of LIV?? Hey, Their LIV, they can do whatever they want with it.. Just saying..🤷🏻♂️
OWGR has refused to rank their players, so it’s not only not an accurate ranking of who the best golfers are, it is obviously not going to be an avenue they’ll be able to use to get into majors, so makes sense to drop it. After this long, the rankings are so wrong for some of the players that it’s comical and unrecoverable for those players to get back to anything resembling accurate. Unless the OWGR decided to give them retroactive points, which would never happen. Blame LIV for “not meeting the criteria” all you want, OWGR could’ve figured out a way to rank them if they actually wanted to, the board is clearly made up of people with conflicting interests. OWGR has a strokes gained metric that still has 24 of the top 100 ranked guys are LIV, vs 9 of 100 in the official rankings.
OWGR system is a joke and everyone knows it.
It has less and less weight in the golf world each week. It does not rank who the best golfer in the world, but that may not be their objective.
Their missing statement says it all...
The mission of the OWGR is to administer and publish, on a weekly basis, a transparent, credible, and accurate Ranking based on the relative performances of players participating in male Eligible Golf Tours worldwide.
Correct. Clearly the OWGR will become more and more irrelevant as tome moves on and major winners like Rahm move to LIV.
Just stating what is happening. Hate it all you want.
I only started watching golf seriously 10 years ago after volunteering for some Canadian PGa events.
I have less skin in the game than most, and I think it seems to help me see things without all the emotion that so many bring. It clouds people's ability to see what is happening in reality.
Have you not read the shit ton of comments I here explaining why your take is really fucking stupid? Why should OWGR change their criteria for LIV? Fucking moron
Can you calm down and not sound like a child?
You are not representing the PGA or LIV. If you died tomorrow, no one on either of the the tour will even spend a brain cell thinking about you or your family.
They aren’t your team. They never will be. Ironic that you ask someone how old they are when you sound like a petulant 20 something that thinks he has the world figured out. Life will humble you.
It depends if they care about being an accurate ranking of all professional golfers, or an accurate ranking of a specific format with certain requirements - those are not the same thing.
The risk they take, is that more and more players go to LIV, those two things deviate more from each other, and ultimately the OGWR loses value as an overall ranking.
> Why should OWGR change their criteria?
To remain relevant as a golf ranking organisation
Once their accuracy goes out of whack enough, and big names lose their majors exemptions then the majors will drop OWGR.
Why can’t LIV just make the changes to satisfy the criteria? All the other tours have no problem meeting the criteria. It’s asinine to know the rules ahead of time, purposefully say fuck that, and then be surprised when OWGR doesn’t give you points.
I think Norman always banked on OWGR changing simply because they had recognizable names - and he also hoped they’d have closer to all of the top 20 players. The obvious hypothetical is, what if someone starts a tour with the best 48 players. They only play each other and no one can play their way onto the tour and no one gets kicked out. Sure, year 1 everyone agrees those players are all great and those are meaningful wins. But what about 7 years later and those same 48 players are still playing only amongst themselves? Surely, no one can say those are still the top 48 players and there’s no way to equitably measure the level of competition in those closed events.
Yep, the longer LIV goes without OWGR the less and less likely LIV is going to succeed in any meaningful way. I still think the main motivation for the Saudis was to leverage their way into part ownership of the Tour. Their unwillingness to release their financials required for anti-trust purposes ultimately put the kibosh on that. Maybe they will back off on that but I kind of doubt it. Meanwhile, other names are cropping up on the Tour and growing their own brands. The Saudis can continue to buy more of those guys out but how long are they willing to do this dance when the endgame continues to push itself further and further down the road? Hoping the PGA Tour can just continue to stick this out.
LIV’s last line of defense are the same 12 accounts that post underneath any PGA Instagram post saying “who??? Why even have a no name tournament??” I always wonder if they’re getting paid too.
I think they also fail to realize how that isn't really all that detracting. I like fresh blood. Even before all those guys bolted to LIV I usually rooted for the guy that had never won before. Maybe it takes away from those first wins a little but that doesn't bother me much. Granted there are a lot of people that like big names playing. They want to see Spieth and Rahm paired up at the top of the leaderboard on Sunday but there are plenty of people who don't need that to enjoy golf.
Yeah I’m tuning in to see great shots and crazy comebacks. I don’t need to see big names every weekend (although Rickie winning last year was fuckin dope for everyone). Let the young blood and no names shine. Knapp’s explosion into the scene is a prime example of something LIV could never hope to do.
> Let the young blood and no names shine. After all, that's how "no names" become "household names."
Right? I always annoy my girlfriend with all the details of how this PGA win is going to change this one guys life immediately and how cool it is to witness. Immediately gets all major invites, immediately gets stability on tour he fought years for, a completely life changing moment is so much fun to watch. LIV is not. But they did have Anthony kim beat that one guy last week.
You need both to exist really. The superstars help market the sport and bring casuals in, and they also make it all the more impressive when somebody new does take them down and win.
Oh I agree. PGA ratings are definitely down mostly due to big names leaving. Which begs to question what's going to break first? Looks like the PGA was on the cusp of breaking but anti-trust issues maybe halted things.
PGA made a deal with someone else at the 11th hour (I don't remember who), they don't need LIV money anymore, so LIVs leverage isn't nearly as strong.
Oh I forgot about that deal. It was Arthur Blank's organization wasn't it? I wasn't under the impression that was fully enough to offset the losses but maybe that does give the PGA Tour enough to hold on a little while longer. Which I hope they do.
PGA ratings are down because ratings are down for every single television broadcast that isn't the NFL. Welcome to the content on demand/post COVID era.
yeah like uh fresh blood is how people become big names in the first place lol When Rory and Speith first came on the scene they were nobodies winning events too lol
This. A lot of sports would be terrible without the elite players. Golf has so much depth of great players that very few people could recognize that it takes away from that void. It only takes a few years for new names and stories to take their place.
A good example is the PGAT losing Rahm but gaining Min Woo Lee, arguably more popular and exciting to watch. I'd still like to see some of those big names playing in majors but otherwise I don't really mind.
I think Performance54 would be up for doing just that!
PGA finding a way to not need ME money at the 11th hour was a huge get for PGA.
And for people who don’t want Saudi Arabia to own golf.
> The Saudis can continue to buy more of those guys out but how long are they willing to do this dance when the endgame continues to push itself further and further down the road? You'll hear a lot of people say the Saudis have practically infinite money, so they don't care. But I would think that at some point, even they are going to evaluate the ROI for LIV. At this point, I'm willing to bet that it won't be considered worth it.
I think they thought their money would go further and players would he jumping ship for less. A billion spent already and guys like matsuyama turning down 300M, Fowler turns down almost a hundo.
I think this is spot on. Over 4 years they’re going to pay about a billion dollars for Phil, Rahm, Cam, DJ, Koepka, and Bryson just in appearance fees - and not even counting the money they’ll win on course. Yes, they’ve got a ton of money to light on fire but I’m sure they thought for $1B they could have gotten far more current top players - and not just a pile of top players from 2010 like Bubba, Sergio, Westwood, Casey, Kaymer, Poulter, McDowell, Stenson, etc
Yep, might be a cascade of issues too where without owgr and no viewership it's all expense and no revenue.
And the value of the purchases they did get will depreciate _fast_. While new names will rise on the PGAT. Every second that goes on with people still not caring who wins on LIV, makes the value of those names less. The PIFs best outcome is that the framework agreement actually comes to fruition, so they can slowly dismantle LIV or reposition it as a new product supplementing the PGAT. It is not going to be viable product on its own.
So liv just keeps plucking players away. Money talks.
6 months ago I would have agreed with you. Now, not so much…. Watching the PGA tournament this past weekend was like watching a Corn Ferry tournament. Other than Lowery…. The leader board was unrecognizable. LIV has all the names, and I feel like LIV doesn’t need the OWGR.
Yeah, that's the root of the issue, I don't know why so many people wasted their breath on the 54 hole or no cut parts of it
OWGR also has a second mandate to grow the game and make sure talent is able to rise through the ranks. LIV's made some minor concession towards the second part, but it's fundamentally at odds with the business model that is trying to create scarcity to make the 'teams' expensive assets. OWGR could figure out how to rank players if they still played enough rounds outside LIV. We have the analytics for that, but if you aren't part of the long term ability to rank golfers than you don't qualify. That's fair imo.
Well one you have the portion of the population that lives on being contrarian and then two you had Saudi bots/shills trying to control the conversation
The 54 holes is also a root of the issue as OWGR requires 72 hole events. That's why the PGA Champions Tour doesn't give points. The no cut isn't that big of an issue IMO but the length of tournament is.
No it’s not. As has been said ad nauseum . Same reason the PGA tour is adding 54 hole events https://www.golfdigest.com/story/owgr-approves-gira-de-golf-for-world-ranking-inclusion-liv-golf-waits/amp
>ELIGIBLE FORMATS >All the formats below relate to Individual Tournament Play. Where a tournament includes a team element, only the individual element of the tournament will be eligible for inclusion in the OWGR System. >Stroke Play >**Standard format: 72 holes – may consist of rounds of less than 18 holes.** >Non-standard format for tournaments anticipated to earn no more than 5.4 First Place Points based on the estimated Field Rating of the tournament: 54 holes – may consist of rounds of less than 18 holes. It's pretty clear. I'm guessing this tour wont award more than 5.4 points to the winners. https://www.owgr.com/how-the-ranking-works
“OWGR requires 72 hole events.” This is what you’re replying to….
That's a OWGR issue, not a LIV issue. Length of tournament is one of the easiest obstacles to work around when calculating points. It really makes no difference, it could be a 6 hole tournament if they wanted to, just pro-rata the points.
Norman is an egotistical idiot, thought with Saudi money he could bludgeon everyone into doing what he wants. OWGR is based on traditional 72 hole events. If the concept was 54 holes from the beginning this was always going to be a problem.
Also, OWGR told LIV *specifically* what they had to do in order to qualify for points. “Play 72 holes” was *not* one of them. A lower number of holes would result in fewer points per event, yes, but when someone tells you “do these things to get what you want” and you respond with “nope,” you don’t get what you want.
Norman being Norman
Ironically you see a lot of ***exactly this*** in competitive chess. The top professional tournaments are invitationals, which creates a huge incentive to being a top 10 player. Once you're "in the club," you're essentially trading rating with the other top players and there's reduced risks associated with losses. In contrast, entering an open tournament runs the risk that you suffer a bad loss against a low-rated opponent and your ranking falls dramatically. Of course, the critical distinction is that the **chess ratings still apply to invitational tournaments**. If you're a top-10 player and continue to suffer losses, your rating will fall and you will eventually drop out of the top 10. With LIV, the organizers failed to make sure that their top players could preserve their rankings by creating a system that did not punish poor performance. OWGR understandably does not want to allot rating points if there is not a sufficient "penalty" for performing badly. LIV could have introduced a hybrid system wherein they created multiple mini-majors during the season. The tournaments would feature their top talent, which would create a high field rating, but also allow their top players to essentially farm one another for rating. It comes with the risk that some of your talent will drop in the OWGR, but there's no free lunch here... top players have to consistently perform at the top level to remain "top."
Spot on. ELO and the OWGR are very similar in construction and behave the same in performance.
No need to capitalize ELO in that manner because it's not an acronym; the term comes from Arpad Elo, the man who invented the system.
He was talking about the band
Like you said they wouldn’t be the best 48 players for long. Truthfully you can never hold on to the “best” golfers in the world because it changes constantly. You can only get a snapshot.
Agreed! Some make the argument that with the “best golfers in the world” leaving for LIV, then the PGA Tour will be boring, but any golfer that can make the Tour is going to be an amazing golfer who’s fun to watch. We’ll forget about the old “best” golfers playing at LIV and learn to love the new “best” golfers. There’s so much talent that’s up and coming that won’t want to just go play for LIV. The Tour will be fine as long as they continue to make improvements to their player pay.
I wonder how this whole thing would have gone if they didn't use Greg Norman. He's a liar and an asshole and I think a lot of the venom was simply about people hating him personally.
That’s what the SEC is and what college football is trying to be
Not even 7 years later. Guys have great years and then fall off quick and then sometimes they bounce back. Look at Justin Thomas- a couple years ago, he was a top 3 player, but last year he plummeted, now he has bounced back some. Guys like Jon Rahm really only have to worry about approx 10 guys on the LIV tour.
It’s a golf society
The point of LIV golf was never to supplant the PGA tour. The saudis aren’t making money on LIV golf. It’s a leverage play to force the PGA into a partnership with them. The hammer is “ we will take your best players by paying them stupid amounts of money”……..and it’s working. Most of golf’s most recognizable names are playing LIV golf and as a result, the PGA is trying to negotiate a deal with them.
Maybe Yasir would like a deal, but it’s clear he wants LIV (or the framework of it) still around. The hard part is that if that’s the case, where do you fit it on the schedule? You can’t just say “well, do the elevated events” because I doubt we *really* want to turn the Arnold Palmer into a 54 hole team golf event. You could do it in the fall or early season leading into the Players and the Masters, but again, guys are bitching about the wrap-around schedule already. As for Norman, there’s nothing more he wants than the PGA Tour to bend the knee after the whole WGC debacle (which was absolutely mid IMO)
The Norman World Tour debacle had virtually the same issue as LIV, namely that it was an insurgent entity designed to eventually replace the PGA Tour. If it had been designed like the WGC events in conjunction with the existing tours (and more importantly revenue share with them), then I’m sure it would have been less of an issue – the same goes for LIV. The issue has always been that Greg Norman’s longtime goal is to end up running professional golf through his own tour.
I don’t know why you are getting downvoted. This pretty clearly seems like it was what they were trying.
yeah would love to understand the downvotes - the PIF wants to hobnob with the people that attend sponsor these tournaments - not the mash potatoes people, the ones in the suites.
A very good point..
Seems like they were never going to get the points anyways. Although I love to see what Joaquin Niemann has been doing and how he has been playing his ass off. Not getting points to qualify? OK play good enough that enough people recognize and you’re making some waves and get an invite that way.
Exactly. Niemann has played the system in a way that was available not just to him but any LIV player who didn't have Euro Tour sanctions hanging over them.
Even those with sanctions could just suck it up and pay them and then they could compete on the European Tour again, it's not like paying the fines would be a problem to even LIV players that got a lesser signing bonus.
Exactly like Wiesberger. I’m not really sure the sanctions would’ve stuck in a court of law but he accepted the fines, paid them, and is now back on the DPWT
I'm just wondering if Niemann now has to pay a fine for each LIV tournament he plays while there is a DPWT event the same week, seeing that he has taken up membership.
I'm shocked the "the mena and asian tours are totally feeder systems that allow for qualification and bumping up our average field size so we can comply with the rules but not really since we have guaranteed contractual spots to players and by the way we don't want to wait a year, do it now or else we threaten you with bad press if we don't get our way" angle didn't work.
I, for one, am totally shocked that Greg Norman ended up being full of shit.
Greg “The Shart” Norman
Ahaahaaahaaahaaahaaaa🤣🤣
I'm especially interested in how "working with the governing bodies of the four majors to get more LIV players involved" is going to go. ANGC famously is not someone you ask for anything, two of the other three are OPENS with well defined qualifying, and the other is run by the PGA (not the PGA Tour obviously but still). Niemann is a great example of how LIV players can get into the majors, as he will be playing in the Master's and the PGA Championship.
Not to mention that the people who denied LIV's OWGR petition were...the organizers of the four majors.
Not exactly. Yes, the USGA, ANGC and PGA of America are represented but the board is mainly comprised of representatives of the PGA Tour, the PGA European tour, the International Federation of PGA tours, and the R&A which hold a majority of the voting shares and understandably have an interest in protecting their own brand of golf over accepting LIV into the club.
Those folks all recused themselves, I believe
That is my understanding as well. While the tours may have been involved in conversations with the sponsors of the four majors, ultimately it was the majors that made the decision on what the criteria would be for LIV to get points (and LIV decided that they wouldn't do what was asked of them to get points).
I’m sure that’ll go over well since owgr basically is the majors haha
Yeah I feel like the only one that would even pick up the phone is the PGA, everyone else is pretty set in how you get into their tournament.
If the majors felt they were missing out of well-deserving LIV players, it’s a really easy fix. They alone control their qualification criteria. The majors could just say the top X number of players from the previous year’s individual LIV standings qualify or something specific to their LIV performance. The most “egregious” example of a good player missing out at the moment is Talor Gooch. Despite what he thinks, the majors probably aren’t going to revise their criteria just for him. If more objectively good players are missing out, then they surely will reevaluate.
That’s exactly it. If the majors wanted the LIV golfers (who aren’t already qualified) they would change their qualifications in a second. But as it stands, every LIV golfer who moves the needle even a little bit is qualified already, so there’s not really a reason to change anything.
Niemann is already the test case, he is clearly playing well, dping it not just on liv, so both augusta and the pga championship gave him an invite. The majors can invite any player they want it. If liv players were truly in it for the cause of LIV, Niemann and the other liv players that are qualified lile Rahm, cam, dj, Bryson, would skip the majors until LIV gets guaranteed qualifying spots. But, as these Liv players have shown they are only in it for themselves no chance they band together to force the majors hand so they won't get that power
Nothing is stopping Gooch or other guys from going through qualifying for the Open and US Open. Qualify, win, and then they are set. If they really are top ten in the world players but for their lack of owgr points, qualifying the hard way should be easy for them.
For every moment that goes by without the majors budging, they have less and less incentive to do so as the the value if those players as an addition to their product declines.
I wonder if LIV players could get their PGA Teaching Pro certifications, give some lessons at a club that sponsored them, and qualify for the PGA Championships via the PGA Professional Championship?
Majors understand they need the best players to be considered the top tournaments. It's that simple. OWGR is obviously broken right now.
Yes but all of the best players are in the majors.
nah - nothing that exists today is going to replace the masters /us open/ open championship. too much history and pagentry. plus LIV doesnt really have anyone that moves the needle for casuals? maybe Phil/Rahm/DJ/Bryson but they aren't tiger or Rory.
I love that Norman is still trying to play victim in his comments, trying to make the OWGR out to be the bad guy even though they pointed out that LIV just doesn't follow the rules that everyone uses....and has used for years......and continues to use. Norman lied to all of these guys and I just don't feel bad for them at this point. Niemann proved that LIV golfers can get an invite if they actually work outside of their bubble and prove that they can qualify, while people like Gooch showed that all they are good at is crying and finger pointing. As a fan, it sucks to see everyone not playing together but LIV victim blaming just proves how bad of a product it is.
Seriously. When the organization that qualifies players for majors using a points system goes with “do these things for points,” and you state that you aren’t doing them, what exactly do you expect is going to happen?
LIV in a nut shell
Norman that kid who refuses to do his homework and complains that he doesn’t get an A
hahhhaa
Norman thought he could create a rival tour but in order to get the marquee players he had to make promises that compromised the OWGR minimum standards. Very Greg like in retrospect.
It’s funny that they all took the money to play less golf but once they drop in the owgr unless they have exemptions they have to play more golf than on the tour to keep their owgr up for the majors. They gooched it
Man I really thought when they got Rahm , he was going to join under the condition they at least make some changes to the format to get ranking points. (4 days , a cut , qualifying criteria) Then they go all AK and make it even more of an exhibition , not really sure I see the end game anymore.
I think they have contractual commitments to the other players that doesn’t allow them to change the format
Would anyone protest if the end goal was to get OWGR points instead of currently where they are dropping into oblivion. So what does the PIF fund have planned for its war with the OGWR , sue them , buy them (can you buy them ? sure everything has a price or a mechanism money can fix)
Make a way to qualify for the LIV tour and a way to maintain (or lose) your tour status and you'd get a long way to being able to get OWGR.
There is a 4 man relegation / promotion already, pushing to 72 hole events would be a bigger step.
The top post in this thread answers this perfectly. It's too much of a closed shop for the OWGR, the very essence of what they are trying to be goes against "growing the game"
4 people…that isn’t going to do much.
Four people... once a year. It's a joke. If that were weekly qualifying slots? They'd get points.
Imagine my shock when LIV turns out to be a horrible long term idea
LIV keeps spending big bucks to buy PGA winners and then the world just moves on to see who the next winner will be. I like competitive golf. LIV is the opposite of that.
They ate the cake. Now they are bleating that they can't have it, too.
Talor Gooch has entered the conversation. And his take is as stupid as you would anticipate it to be. https://twitter.com/flushingitgolf/status/1765069822550012392
What is he even saying there? Just give us the ranking points for not meeting your criteria? Laughable take.
Using the phrase "just and right" a lot in one tweet, especially given he's funded by Saudi money.
All they had to do is exactly what they did but then just play 72 hole tournaments all over the world. LIV would be a serious threat if they hadn't tried all the dumb shit they are trying to be different. One of the all time blunders. Absolutely shit themselves in the foot.
Notice that greg didnt say theyre gonna stop bitching.
"Why won't this organization with clearly established rules and standards bend to my whims?" Greg Norman is carbuncle on the asshole of life.
Interesting, does that mean a deal is around the corner?
Could just mean they finally realized it's never happening.
Irony being it would happen if they were willing to conform to the asks of owgr but they refuse
Yep. They refuse because they'd have to change every fundamental detail of how players enter the league, their competition and the length of the tournament. LIV made a decision and doesn't like the consequences. Boo hoo.
They didn't have to change the length of events, that was not one of the criteria. I don't even think they had to really change invites. What they had to change was the idea of having the same exact field every event for a year.
72 hole events don’t count.
Not if you believe the comments from Jordan and Tiger following the PGA Tour/SSG partnership announcement a little over a month ago. While a lot of the PGA/LIV dealings have been kept from the public, I do trust those two guys when they say that no progress was being made between the PIF and PGAT. According to Jordan, even if progress does start happening at some point, which there's no indication that it will, a deal will still be a long ways off (we're talking a year or so, at minimum) due to all of the protocol they will have to go through to finalize any deal. That includes getting the DOJ to sign off on it, which sounds pretty questionable since the PIF isn't keen on opening up their books for anyone.
I don't get that feeling at all from this report. The quotes indicate the opposite of that in my opinion. OWGR says that LIV tournament formats aren't comparable to the other tour formats. So they don't have a method to rank them on the same playing field, thus why so many elite LIV players have tanked in the rankings. LIV says that their elite players aren't being ranked in a reasonable fashion and it isn't fair to the players to get penalized for playing on this new tour. Seems like LIV didn't properly vet that the rankings would accommodate their format and OWGR hasn't figured out a way to be flexible enough to appropriately rank LIV players alongside PGA/others. tldr: professional golf is in a terrible place for spectators and it isn't showing signs of improving any time soon.
It has to. Owgr points was something allegedly promised to the players, and giving up that fight would be a signal for others that they just don't care. The deal must be close enough that it doesn't matter anymore because the liv guys will be able to play pga tour events.
Yea something is definitely going on especially after all the whining coming from the LIV crew. This is the part I despise about all the LIV/PGA drama , all the back room double dealing, backstabbing nonsense
> whining coming from the liv crew That's been Greg Norman's schtick for 30 years about an alternative professional tour. I really doubt the complaining is an indication that something different will be happening soon.
He is not in control, though.
You didn’t read what he said. He said that OWGR isn’t going to work with them and they’ve exhausted all attempts to get them to change their mind. “Even if LIV Golf events were immediately awarded points, the OWGR system is designed such that it would be functionally impossible for you to regain positions close to the summit of the ranking, where so many of you were prior to joining LIV, and deserve to remain based on your performance.” He’ll continue to work toward getting players into majors but that’s all he can do for now.
[удалено]
Considering the OWGR is made up of the majors and the pga/dp tour, I think that the Masters and PGA Championship giving Niemann special exemptions indicates the exact opposite. The OWGR as a whole won't be giving LIV ranking points because they won't comply with the established rules and they've tried to half-ass it for more than a year. So, individual majors will decide how to deal with it on their own. Niemann, Gooch, Hatton are really the only ones that have an argument that don't already have a couple years of exemptions stacked up anyway.
That's certainly not how Greg Norman's comments read. It sounds like they are going to try to work directly with the majors themselves (which is weird because that's exactly who was making the decisions about OWGR) instead of through OWGR. My take on it is that LIV has decided that the things they need to to do in order to qualify for OWGR points is something that would be too damaging to their business model (if we can call it that) AND that public pressure will eventually force OWGR to cave and come crawling back to them.
I agree. I mean, look at the OWGR, Keith Pelley and Jay Monahan said they were staying out of it. I'd also assume Keith Waters is staying out of it. So, you're left with the four majors. The PGA and ANGC gave special exemptions to a player that went out of his way to play in non-LIV events and performed. With this statement from LIV, I'm betting the USGA and R&A told LIV to pound sand - you can go qualify. Except, when given the chance, the loudest complainer (Gooch) didn't even try to qualify for the US Open.
Yep. The invites from ANGC and the PGA to Joaquin basically said to the Talor Gooch's of the world: "Go out and win some real events, and we will be happy to invite you." ANGC certainly isn't going to invite Gooch because he wined.
ANGC has probably put Gooch on their "never invite" list.
I wonder if Liv can buy the Asian tour and make it a feeder to LIV’s “elevated events”
The competition in any Asian Tour event is significantly higher than any LIV "invitational". Anthony Kim wouldn't qualify to even show his face at an Asian Tour stop.
LIV is weird, I think the only way it would be interesting is if the legends were team captains, and you qualify for these team events through a sanctioned events throughout the world. It could exist as something additive. I think there should be more match play as part of it.
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liv has guys at the top but very little depth, it's kind of the crux of the owgr issue
The best guys at LIV are some of the best in the world, so that's not a surprise. The average level across the player base is not even comparable, Asian Tour blows LIV out of the water.
Lol you picked the worst liv golfer as proof that the Asian tour is more talented? This is unhinged even by r/golfs low standards
Kinda silly to call it official ranking if it's not really official. Didn't tiger just jump like 509 ranks for getting dfl in a 20 man tournament?
Norman really sucks at management and always has.
Your post isn’t going to age well
>*Norman really sucks at management and always has.* No, that'd be **Jay Monahan**. LIV GOLF may have ever even come into existence in the first place without Monahan calling the shots over at the PGA as badly as he has. Watch and learn. Next.
Well you got me there. Jay manages to be both incompetent and a douche
Well good. They thought they could bully the owgr into changing their stance.
I really don't care whether LIV succeeds or not. If they want to do their own thing, so be it. However, all this whining, crying, and devisive rhetoric is terrible for the game of golf overall, and they started it by buying out all these top ranked players to defect from the PGA Tour. If you want to take a bag to play in an exhibition league with a different format, then so be it, but don't destroy the tour that helped you make a name for yourself.
They are now going for LBSR. Legal Bone Saw Regocnition.
Matt Fitz on OWGR. I know he is a big data guy. Maybe this will help some of you see what so many others can see. “I don’t think the world rankings are a true representation of the golf game at the minute. I don’t really look at them or pay attention to them anymore. I don’t think they’re right. So I look at @datagolf as a better representation of how people are playing in the world in my opinion. I think it’s partly a sign that there’s plenty of depth on here which we’ve known that for years on the PGA Tour, there’s always been a lot of strength and depth, but I certainly think nowadays the ranking side of it is a little bit skewed.”
Weird, I cannot find this quote anywhere when searching Google for it.
It's pretty fresh and I think it was on golf channel's golf today segment. Here is a X post about it. I would expect more articles to show up about this over the next week. https://twitter.com/NUCLRGOLF/status/1765117788199293325?s=19
Well thanks for sourcing it at least. Interesting where you left out him saying he understands why LIV doesn't get OWGR points... LIV fans seem to think there's some grand conspiracy against them when in reality the OWGR has laid out exactly what its issues are with giving LIV points and LIV has elected to do nothing to make itself compliant. It has a long term stagnation issue that is going to make it impossible to rank guys with the rest of the world when ever other tour has player churn.
We are past the point of 'why' they are not included. We are now at the point, owgr is not a true representation of golf at the moment. That is the point to draw from Fitz. It is not some grand conspiracy , lol. And if you really think LIV did nothing to try and meet owgr in the middle, you're just keeping your head in the sand. The current trend is players who are at the top of their game (e.g. Rahm winning masters) move to LIV. If the majors continue to use owgr, over time the majors will need shift away from owgr. Fans wanna seethe best play. It's really not that complex. I think another hint we got recently was from Hovlands comment about being paid accordingly (fairly). https://twitter.com/NUCLRGOLF/status/1763940290421785013?s=19 “Now, money is important and everyone needs to get paid accordingly, in a fair way, but I don’t think that needs to be like the driving force behind this, or the story every single week.” Players are realizing they have a 'value', and Hovoland is right that winning an event like Memorial has its own value. But overtime players like him will want to get their fair share of money. Just my opinion. I am often wrong.
> The current trend is players who are at the top of their game (e.g. Rahm winning masters) move to LIV. If the majors continue to use owgr, over time the majors will need shift away from owgr. Fans wanna seethe best play. It's really not that complex. The problem with this line of thinking is that the absolute best players already have major exemptions for the most part. Rahm just won the masters, he doesn't have to worry about OWGR for the majors for quite some time. Never again in the case of Augusta. Who is being "left out" of the majors currently? Here is the 2024 exemption list: Masters: Sergio Garcia, Dustin Johnson, Phil Mickelson, Patrick Reed, Charl Schwartzel, Bubba Watson, Bryson DeChambeau, Brooks Koepka, Cameron Smith. PGA Championship: Martin Kaymer, Koepka, Mickelson, DeChambeau, Johnson, Smith. U.S. Open: DeChambeau, Kaymer, Koepka, Johnson, Mickelson, Smith. British Open: Louis Oosthuizen, Henrik Stenson, Mickelson, Smith, DeChambeau, Johnson, Koepka.
Moving away from owgr points and to the majors. I think that is a really strong point. Currently, for the most part, majors should work out for the fans. My wife loves Gooch, I wonder why, lol. He won't really be missed at any majors this year. A few fans will miss yelling his name (my wife) or watching him play (me) at majors. I watched his bunker shot ok hole three at Sentosa and quiet enjoyed it. He had three wins on LIV, not easy to do. I think the risk for the majors is more long-term. And to be honest the risk could be hyped up. Time will tell.
Good. They never tried to get points anyway. Greg just likes to whine and makes sure the players whine too
Be interesting to see how the players and commentators handle this at the next LIV event. They've been pushing so hard to talk about recognition at every opportunity I'm actually shocked LIV had just given up mid season. I wonder if some other big news is going to be announced that'll make the conversation moot.
LIV fan boys punching the air right now. I’m sure trump will fix this too lmao
Good Liv golf ruined golf. They only ply 2 rounds.
So, they only went 75% of the way?
LIV is about buying respectability for the Saudis. It has never been about golf. No one cares about LIV. The Saudis don't care.
LIV should create a second tour. That tour should operate like the pga tour or any other, with a Q school, regular 4 day tournaments with a cut, etc. Then, everyone on that tour should be part of a stable of golfers for each team on LIV. For example, the 4 aces would have 10 golfers on this second tour. Each LIV tournament, DJ could then promote and relegate golfers from the tour to his team. LIV obviously has the money to do this, they just gave Rahm 600 million. They can run a 2nd tour with payouts higher than the Korn Ferry Tour and likely even some do world tour events. This does a few things: 1. It ensures you actually have good golfers on LIV 2. It creates drama to see who is playing each event. 3. It makes LIV an open system, so the OWGR can be satisfied that competition is strong and points can be rewarded 4. It emphasizes the team aspect of LIV, extending the teams down to the 2nd tour as well. Imagine the 4 Aces with 14 golfers instead of 4. 5. It would attract golfers from the dp world tour and Korn Ferry tour, putting a dent in the pga tour player feeder system. 6. It gives us, the fans, more golf, with 14 LIV events plus 10-20 additional events throughout the year. Greg if you’re reading this, shoot me a DM. I’m bored at work and could use a new job. My sign on bonus will be slightly less than Koepka’s.
> My sign on bonus will be slightly less than Koepka’s. So like, 950g of coke?
It's unfortunate that all this nonsense has completely removed any interest I have in professional golf other than the majors. YouTube golfers are more fun, and the arguments over millions of dollars is getting old.
I seriously don’t get this take. I watch YouTube golf sometime but not really comparable to watching a tournament
I just have lost interest in the PGA and I've tried to watch LIV half a dozen times. It's boring and kind of dumb. There's no one that pulls me in any longer on either tour. If Tiger somehow was able to stay healthy and be competitive again, I'd watch. But other than the majors, there's no must see TV anymore.
I have nothing against the guys who went to LIV. Honestly I don’t have a whole lot against LIV itself either. I’ll tune sometimes and will actually get a bit invested. The one thing that really bothers me is selfishly the golf fan community is being robbed of seeing all the best players in the world compete against each other on a semi regular basis. The PGA is still putting out a fine product, but there are times I’ll be watching these events and can’t help but wonder what it would be like if DJ, Koepka, Dechambeau, Rahm, etc, etc would be playing there as well.
I have a feeling that there'll be an announcement soon along the lines of LIV having X number of spots in the majors or something. I doubt they've just given up on this, it's most likely there's been a deal struck behind closed doors
Time for the majors to change selection criteria to Data Golf. Bewilders me that Data Golf can include LIV golf in rankings but OWGR can't or should I say won't.
**The OWGR is a mostly useless world golf ranking mechanism at this point.** As such, if the four majors were *smart*, they should mostly just ignore the OWGR and simply modify or create their own admission criteria to specifically allow for inviting a capped number of top LIV Golf players (who are *not* already past major champions) to their annual major tournaments. The four majors should not care *in the least* what the PGA or OWGR think or want, and should be solely focused on maintaining the integrity and quality of their *own* annual championship events, so that *all* the very best players in the world are given fair opportunity to participate and get showcased on their global stage. This is something the organizers of the four majors would be wise to address *now, and immediately*, without any further delay. Failure to do so will undoubtedly lead to their major annual tournaments failing over time, in the eyes of both fans, viewers, and players alike. Watch and learn. Next.
Strongly agree. There are a bunch of orgs out there like DataGolf, TUGR etc ready to replace the OWGR.
Greg? Is that you? Nobody thinks this way except paid LIV slurpers.
>*Greg? Is that you?* Nope, just common sense and reality, kid. Both of which usually result in failure if not practiced. Pro golf is no different. Do your homework. Next.
This sub is r/pgacirclejerk
No you’re just a fucking moron
You are one angry guy. Worse, you have bad opinions.
Surely one of the Majors will eventually give in and use an OWGR alternative like the TUGR. OWGR was created because the system before it stopped working. From Wikipedia: “The initiative for the creation of the Official World Golf Ranking came from the Championship Committee of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews, which found in the 1980s that its system of issuing invitations to The Open Championship on a tour by tour basis was omitting an increasing number of top players because more of them were dividing their time between tours” Now if the OWGR isn’t fit for purpose move onto something else.
I have no idea to be honest. The issue I see, and what OWGR has laid out, is that LIV has no player churn to make sure that the competition stays high. If a small group of guys only ever plays each other and the worst guys aren't replaced by new ones, then you eventually end up with a self sustaining ecosystem where guys are just trading OWGR points back and forth. Probably not an issue in the early days but these guys will get older and worse over time and without any new blood to challenge them it becomes impossible to assess them fairly.
Well if the competition degrades the “strength of field metric” should reflect this and award fewer points for playing on LIV. TUGR claim to be able to do it but I don’t completely understand- https://tugr.org/method
>Well if the competition degrades the “strength of field metric” should reflect this and award fewer points for playing on LIV. Yes but if there aren't new, lower ranked players coming in and beating the higher ranked guys, it's not really possible to tell how much the strength of the field is changing. High level chess has this issue.
Good for Norman really. It seems common among most pro golfers now that OWGR are a bit of a joke. So by pulling his fight to get points it kind of reaffirms the point that OWGR is useless and they don't even want them anymore. When LIV was fighting to get points for their players it made the OWGR a bit more relevant.
Maybe something is going on behind the scenes for Norman to stop pushing for the OWGR?? You never know, Norman is just a puppet for the Saudi’s…
They’re gonna start their own ranking system… that no one will recognize. Genius!
With all the $Billions the Saudi’s have, why didn’t they started one from the Beginning of LIV?? Hey, Their LIV, they can do whatever they want with it.. Just saying..🤷🏻♂️
Goodbye merger. Hello Rory in LIV in 2025
Rory would rather self immolate than join LIV.
He is not happy w PGA tour management ATM and the new SSG deal just puts more $ in Tigers pocket not necessarily good for the tour with no PIF influx.
OWGR has refused to rank their players, so it’s not only not an accurate ranking of who the best golfers are, it is obviously not going to be an avenue they’ll be able to use to get into majors, so makes sense to drop it. After this long, the rankings are so wrong for some of the players that it’s comical and unrecoverable for those players to get back to anything resembling accurate. Unless the OWGR decided to give them retroactive points, which would never happen. Blame LIV for “not meeting the criteria” all you want, OWGR could’ve figured out a way to rank them if they actually wanted to, the board is clearly made up of people with conflicting interests. OWGR has a strokes gained metric that still has 24 of the top 100 ranked guys are LIV, vs 9 of 100 in the official rankings.
Wow OWGR are some assholes. Personally I think Jon Rahm should get points for ever time he beats one of the Bryan Bro’s.
Well he's not playing against them anymore so he'll never get them lmao.
What? I’ve seen him play more against them on YouTube than I’ve seen him on LIV.
Ah yes. The YouTube tour.
Poke fun if you want but if he beats Fat Perez he should get a life time invitation to The Masters.
OWGR system is a joke and everyone knows it. It has less and less weight in the golf world each week. It does not rank who the best golfer in the world, but that may not be their objective. Their missing statement says it all... The mission of the OWGR is to administer and publish, on a weekly basis, a transparent, credible, and accurate Ranking based on the relative performances of players participating in male Eligible Golf Tours worldwide.
And LIV is clearly not an Eligible Golf Tour, since their tournaments do not meet the criteria specified by OWGR for earning points.
Correct. Clearly the OWGR will become more and more irrelevant as tome moves on and major winners like Rahm move to LIV. Just stating what is happening. Hate it all you want. I only started watching golf seriously 10 years ago after volunteering for some Canadian PGa events. I have less skin in the game than most, and I think it seems to help me see things without all the emotion that so many bring. It clouds people's ability to see what is happening in reality.
Go away bot.
How hard was it to come up with that lol.
As easy as it was for the OWGR to reject LIV actually.
Lol. You must shoot low, good luck dude.
Have you not read the shit ton of comments I here explaining why your take is really fucking stupid? Why should OWGR change their criteria for LIV? Fucking moron
Lol, so we know you can fire insults and claim things. Can you back it up with logic and reasoning. I can wait.
Answer the question
Can you calm down and not sound like a child? You are not representing the PGA or LIV. If you died tomorrow, no one on either of the the tour will even spend a brain cell thinking about you or your family. They aren’t your team. They never will be. Ironic that you ask someone how old they are when you sound like a petulant 20 something that thinks he has the world figured out. Life will humble you.
It depends if they care about being an accurate ranking of all professional golfers, or an accurate ranking of a specific format with certain requirements - those are not the same thing. The risk they take, is that more and more players go to LIV, those two things deviate more from each other, and ultimately the OGWR loses value as an overall ranking.
> Why should OWGR change their criteria? To remain relevant as a golf ranking organisation Once their accuracy goes out of whack enough, and big names lose their majors exemptions then the majors will drop OWGR.
Why can’t LIV just make the changes to satisfy the criteria? All the other tours have no problem meeting the criteria. It’s asinine to know the rules ahead of time, purposefully say fuck that, and then be surprised when OWGR doesn’t give you points.
No surprise. OWGR doesn't want LIV golfers.
The PGA Tour won't allow LIV players in their ranking organization? Truly shocked!