Only chance I legit have of breaking 150 somewhere like that is to have the full course spotting my ball like the pros have. If it’s me and my boys out there, I’m losing a lot of shots I think.
I’ve seen the question bounce around about putting from the furthest spot on the green and making par at pinehurst and I fear I’d have trouble breaking 100 on that challenge
Yep. That's the thing about being a bad golfer; all courses are pretty much the same challenge. 600 yard par 5? No big deal. 7 wood, 7 wood, 8 iron, sand wedge, 3 putt. It wouldn't be radically different from what I would expect to score at least a couple of times during each round.
You’re underestimating how hard it is going to be to stay on these greens and then putt when you’re there.
In reality your sandwedge is rolling off the green, and you’re likely going to take more than three putts each time
Lmao I Played the front 9 on my oculus with pro speed greens. I hate this course but I love how Golf + vr lets me golf some of these amazing courses.
https://preview.redd.it/2hpdqz4t3h6d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f0e6541936cec2db4dc98e55afe0f5e11bbf2d69
For a second, I thought your Oculus out on the course with you to help read greens. Wishful thinking on my part. That’d be a rad feature if it was able to give you reads on putts haha
lol I have no room. Plus I havent really enjoyed the simulators I’ve been to lol I like the oculus as it feels/looks like I’m on an actual golf course and with the basically full club attachment I have it just feels great.
Don’t go cheap with attachment. I had my controller fly across the room swinging. Luckily it didn’t break my controller. Got the deadeye Drivr elite and it feels amazing. It’s about 90bucks. Has daily tournaments, scrambles, top golf, and mini golf. Some of the notable courses you can play are the old course, pinehurst no.2, Muirfield, pebble beach, Valhalla, TPC sawgrass. (They have a ton more and are always adding more as well.)
This just reminds me, the first time I ever played golf on an actual course, thankfully my dad had us playing double par. I shot double par on every single hole that day, a clean 144. It’s more than possible! lol
The green designs are intelligently designed so that shots requiring longer approaches are easier to hold/have larger flat surfaces and the shorter approaches need to be from the right angle to hold. The modern game has neutralized a bunch of this.
Yes they are.
https://www.todays-golfer.com/news-and-events/tour-features/us-open-2014/the-course/pinehursts-saucer-greens/#:~:text=“The%20edges%20of%20the%20putting,bunkers%20–%20flashy%20with%20sand%20faces.
They have evolved overtime as can be expected. There are a lot of golden age courses that have domed shaped greens (for drainage reasons) but most don’t pop up like a “bug bite” from the topo and don’t have the green surfaces cut so low down the face.
No they weren’t. Coore discusses it in the Fried Egg video about Pinehurst. They didn’t take those back to the original greens because there was nobody alive who’d seen them or played on them.
Link to the video where he discusses it here: https://youtu.be/tAKAZrGN7sU?si=KeQQWLFvX4z6kv7N
Did you watch the video? Coore specifically talked about how the contours and shapes of the greens are different now than before, not just in surface but contours and shapes. The greens at Pinehurst didn't just perfectly erode into domed saucers.
Yeah it’s a great video. I don’t interpret what score says the same as you. I interpret it as they didn’t mess with them during the restoration. Obviously they are not the same as the OG Ross greens and know one knows exactly what those were like.
However, having watched my golden era course being restored by Coore and Crenshaw team (they themselves are not directly involved, although they did our other course) it’s pretty obvious to me that the greens “grew out” from the original designs and got larger.
Depending on the bunkering around a green and sand splash and mowing overtime, you either get a reduction in green size or an increase in green size over time. On our course most of them “shrunk” and they have been enlarging them. No. 2 appears to have done the opposite and grew overtime (which the tight mowing would suggest) but the playable area did not.
Picking up on what the other commenter said, the greens are an evolution of Ross’s original design. Yes with each renovation over the years, changes have been made to shape and contour, but severely elevated greens are a well-known feature of Donald Ross courses, Pinehurst having evolved into a severe example of this.
I agree, i think masters being shot shape tourney, pga going low, us open being hell, and the open being links golf gives the players and fans the ideal variety
I think the better way to think of the US Open vs PGA is that the USGA goes out their way to make the course the attraction of the week by burning down greens and growing out rough and that _sometimes_ means really bad scores but what it usually means is a lot of variability in the leader board. People watch the US Open to see a test of golfer vs. borderline insane course conditions. Doesn't always pan out that way, but that's the goal.
The PGA in contrast is all about trying to put up a fair but challenging course to encourage the most competition. The attraction is the competition not the course. The PGA doesn't go out of their way to make the course a torturous affair but they do set it up to be challenging.
The thing I love about a tough course is that on a Sunday anything can happen. A player can get hot and be 5 back and come back.
On those tournaments when everyone is sitting the lights out it virtually eliminates the ability for a player to come back because you know that one of the top 5 guys will be able to put together a - 4 back 9.
The occasional birdie race is fun if they are doing it through more than dink and dunk and making some incredible shots since risk is low on easier courses. Which is when you have 10-15 guys lighting it up not the whole field typically.
I mean you act like all the top guys did so well. I watched Rory put two in the water on Sunday at Valhalla.
I don’t need to watch this type of golf every week.
What makes them the best in the world is watching them make birdies. Knowing that I can go out there and be lucky if I keep it under 90. This course this week is for the elite of the elite. The average hacker on Reddit would take 8 hours and 150+ strokes this week at Pinehurst. Me included. That’s not fun.
It’s fun to watch but let’s not act like this is every course in America or it’s so easy to find courses that would challenge players to this level.
Hell, I can tell a huge difference two weeks of no rain has changed my CC course. I bet Valhalla could be set up a lot harder this week. I live in Louisville and have seen in the short time since the PGA that the greens I play every week are way faster than a month agoZ
"What makes them the best in the world is watching them make birdies."
Got to disagree. When the greens are mush like at Valhalla, even marginal shots are rewarded. Navigating #2 right now takes crazy skill and the course shows us the difference between a decent shot and a great shot. Who cares about "birdies" show me the elite skill.
Sometimes when the pros are struggling it is easy to forget just how good they are and how hard the course is. When they are throwing darts at every single flag it is more evident how crazy good they are.
I think at least once a year they should play a local muni that we can't break 90 at. They come in and shoot 55 and remind everyone that they aren't the same.
To me, it's the opposite. Marginal shots online stopped and stuck at Valhalla. #2 separates those on their game from those just off. Way more interesting to me.
I want to see the players playing the best win. Having a shot 15ft off your target end up in a worse spot than a shot 45ft off your target isn't rewarding the best players.
I don’t really get this argument. These guys know exactly where to hit it, if hitting the ball on the back left corner of the green and having it run down to the pin is the shot… that’s the shot. Minor errors are what separate the best. Which for me personally, is what I want to watch. I’ll agree that if the average golfer had to play this type of course it would be a disaster.
That same argument applies in any situation. If the green is soft a great shot might mean a 5-7' birdie putt versus a 20' birdie putt. Players are still rewarded for great shots.
My club is a hard fast course, not Pinehurst level obviously, but there's some luck involved when things are hard and fast. Two balls could land a couple inches apart and have wildly different first bounces. On soft greens the first bounce is much more consistent.
I don't really care if the final score is -20 or -2, as long as it's competitive!
And the point is that yes, they hit that shot, but a guy who goes 2 yards over that back left corner is now in complete jail while the guy who misses 25 yards short and right has a pretty easy two putt. That's not separating the best players from the good players.
Well club down. Collin was just talking about that in his interview. Sometimes you can’t go for it and have to take your medicine and hope for a par. This is the golf I want to see. Not guys sticking it within 3 feet over and over again. Go for it and if you don’t hit it perfect you’re fucked. Or, play strategic and grind down the others. Idk I’m not saying you’re wrong it’s just more my preference.
If players have the ability to stick it within 3 feet over and over again, maybe they should get rewarded for that?
Like I don't want to watch a version of basketball where you can shoot a 3 pointer, but you lose a point every time you miss. Then people just never shoot 3 pointers and you've cut out half of the exciting shots. Imagine a team just holding the ball at the end of a tie game because you don't want to lose the point.
I prefer risk / reward courses. There is risk here but little reward. Just aim for the center of the green and make more putts is the game plan these guys should be using.
Sounds like it is separating the players based on their skill in course management. If they all know the ideal shot and that the preferred miss is short, are you really still saying the small miss to the dead side is the better player?
I love No. 2 and also brutal/challenging golf courses. The winner at No. 2 plays ultra boring - long drives and aims at the center of the green while making a few more putts than the next guy. Not exactly the most thrilling golf.
While the course is better post reno, the pre reno acres of rough course with the same greens was much much harder more challenging to watch.
How is watching double bogies all day fun? Want to make Valhalla tough, make the players and caddies find their own balls, that's going to cost them many strokes will it not? No more lift clean and place makes it harder also. Bring OB areas closer also will cause problems.
Time of year makes a difference. I live in Louisville. While I’ve never played Valhalla, I am a member of a course about 15 miles from there. The course has become a lot harder and greens much faster compared to a month ago. We had a good amount of spring rain this year but the last few weeks have been pretty dry and it shows. Might not make a drastic difference for pros I guess.
I don’t think that would’ve made a difference based off the scoring from past events there. The problem with Valhalla was that they could still go for the green on bad shots, there wasn’t really much to think about from what I remember (like that gimmick 13th hole, don’t drive it and you still make birdie). our version of hard they still see as easy
First of all, that isn’t what I said so you don’t need quotes. Second, that opinion seems to be pretty popular seeing how this thread went. So yea, seems like a legitimate question.
This isn't really true. Valhalla sucked but Kiawah, Southern Hills, and Oak Hill were some of the toughest and most balanced tests of golf in recent major history.
People are wishing it was like 06/07 when +5 won the us open
The last 5 years the winning scores are:
-10
-6
-6
-6
-13
Then +1 but a -16 before that
The brutal US opens are a thing of the past people still hang on to.
Having said that… pinehurst is gonna have the place scorched dry come the weekend
I feel Winged Foot was great. I think only 2 ppl shot under par.
The US Open is my favorite because I could play those courses. I probably won't because of the cost, but at least I could. I do also like how hard they generally are.
If you can get on LACC, the country club at Brookline, or Shinnecock you have very little problem getting on any course in the country
All US open courses in the last 10 years throw in a few more recents: merion, olympic club, congressional oh and good luck just ‘getting on Bethpaige black’ and i have no fucking clue what you mean
Speaking of The Country Club it's impossible to play the US Open course without being a pro because it's a composite of their 18 and 9 hole courses.
Guessing they might also occasionally use that setup for club championships and such but I have no idea.
Not even that. Bryson finished -6 but Matthew Wolff on back was even par or worse. In fact Bryson was the only player who broke par on Sunday (there were a few even rounds), and that was a -3 round at that.
Winner right now is trending to be in the -10 to -15 range.
So yea it’s definitely a technically challenging course but with the quality of clubs and the control modern golfers have the top guys are still able to get themselves in the right positions.
First round usually has the best chance for the most people to shoot under par. It’s gonna be hot and dry and pins are only gonna get harder.
2014 open at pine hurst 2 there were 47 golfers under par after round 1. End of tournament there were 4, and kaymer was the only one lower than -1
There are 5 people right now who, if they shoot what they shot today every single day, will break -10. That's not trending towards the winner being -10 to -15. You have to look at the distribution as a whole, and scores regress to the mean. Barring a runaway, this trend is more towards the winner being in the -5 to -10 range.
As a guy who played kiawah the few days after the championship, from the championship tees, I can say, holy fuck.
I have never grinded so hard in my fucking life.
0.9 and I shot 84. The greens weren't bad but the wind combined with PGA greens and the fact you need to be in position on every single shot made it tough as fuck. Managed to offset some doubles with a couple birdies. Lol
0.9 and I shot 84. The greens weren't bad but the wind combined with PGA greens and the fact you need to be in position on every single shot made it tough as fuck. Managed to offset some doubles with a couple birdies. Lol
Yes, but that was a few weeks away from US Open. Greens were softer and rough not as penal as it is now. No way Grant Horvat shoots 3-under with these conditions. He still played a great round of golf though.
This also serves as good evidence to show to any “lol, there’s a bunch of players scoring *under* par so that means this course has become too easy!!!” comments you may see…
Datagolf has an even round today at +3.26 SG, better than Scottie’s current 50 round average. I think a course where *he* is expected to be over par is playing pretty dang tough, regardless of a few guys playing great rounds today.
I played Pinehurst #2 few years ago and was in the fairway bunker systems all day. The so called sand was like nothing I've ever seen. Had no idea where the ball would go. Just had to laugh about it.
One-off courses like this are cool to watch, it's interesting to watch *every* high level player struggle at some point during a round without seeing an individual melting down.
This sub is just filled with people who suck massive ass at golf and are happy when it *appears* that everyone else is drug down to their level of incompetency.
If I turn on the TV and everyone is +3 or worse on Sunday it's getting turned off. I can go watch dogshit golf on YouTube.
Yeah doesn’t really help that people seem to ONLY look at the scoreboard to determine a good tournament. Back to the PGA, people bitch to no avail but that tournament came down to a winning putt on the 18th. People just want to see pros shooting over par so they can feel better about their own shitty game rather than just appreciating the best players in the world for being the best. I also find it funny people think they’d remotely stand a chance in the USO because everyone’s shooting high. People are just a bunch of idiots here on this sub
I’ve watched enough golf I wasn’t even remotely mad with the scoring at Valhalla unlike so many people on the internet. I’ve also watched enough golf I don’t see everyone shooting ahigh numbers at the USO as a “change of pace”. I don’t think every major should be a bogey-fest. People who complain either haven’t watched golf long enough, don’t know how to fully appreciate golf for what it is tournament-to-tournament, or both.
I've watched and played a shit ton of golf. The mush greens at Valhalla masked the quality of golf. You couldn't tell the difference between a marginal shot and a perfect shot because they all hit and stopped.
Trajectory, curve and spin are what makes great golf great. None of that was on premium at Valhalla. Your golf palette isn't as discriminating as you imply.
You’re right I don’t have an extremely discriminatory palette when watching golf. I just enjoy watching good golf. Fact about the PGA is that shit came down to a winning putt on the 18th hole. Cry all you want. The pros are just really good. If you have an issue with that opinion I am sorry for you
Inability to process another POV -- someone's crying 🤣 One second you're bragging about your experience and discrimination, the next you're eating out of the trough. Just because someone doesn't agree with you is no reason to getting all huffy and defensive, snowflake.
Sorry, just a game I play with overassuming redditors who read extremely deeply into words said out while working in the sun for 8 hours. You seem to care a lot about whatever I said than me, so I was just stringing you on near the end seeing how much more smoke you could blow 👍have a good night
They all play the same course. It doesn’t matter if the score is even par or -20 after 4 days. You can’t look at Valhalla’s leaderboard and tell me it wasn’t a fantastic tournament.
But it’s fun to watch them land the ball 10’ from the flag and end up off the green too, I guess.
I'm a 12 handicap and watching this on TV I believe there are some holes I'd just pick up my ball after a dozen strokes or so when I'm tired of going coast to coast in the greenside sand.
They'd be about 600 over if shotlink cables and other paraphernalia didn't give these guys a free drop just about anytime they were in the junk and blocked out from hitting at the flag.
Not really. The current score for the leaders (-5) would have won 13/20 of the last US Opens (and all but four of those that had lower scores were -6). This course is not that difficult.
Maybe. Weather forecast looks hot and dry. Course didn’t look quite a “burned out” as last go around so they could reduce the watering on the greens and fairways to make them more difficult to hold.
There aren’t a ton of pin options to really play with and I don’t think making the greens faster will cause that much impact (because they are relatively flat on top).
Theres a lot of pin options youll see the next 3 days when the pins are in different spots, making the greens faster will impact alot. Approach shots will roll more and ones that mightve held today will roll off the green, chip shots same point as above.
Theyre hardly flat on top, just not cliffs like the sides are.
I have played the course a number of times. Including once with the former USGA Head of Championship Agronomy who was setting up the 2014 course.
Those greens are “flat” on top for a course of this caliber. Surprisingly, TPC Sawgrass also has this feature. There are nowhere near the number of pin options on these greens per sqft as a normal course due to how they are designed.
I think drying the greens out (so they are less receptive) will have a much greater impact than increasing their speed (through rolling). Only thing increasing the speed may do is make the chipping game more challenging (already brutal) and we may see more putts role off of the green (which can be fun). They could also tip out the course (I haven’t been paying attention to if they are using all the back tee locations).
I mean it’s a major championship so it’s obviously harder than a regular tour stop? That is a fairly typical breakdown for a major championship. The cut line would currently be +2 which is on the low side for a US Open.
Also there are a bunch of amateurs and has beens (Phil, DJ, Etc) in the field that aren’t competitive.
Masters that have finished at -11 under have the same has beens. All majors do.
My point is it should be hard to the point that below par is an accomplishment. 99 open, one of the greatest ever - guess where Payne’s putt on 18 put him?
279. One under. Champion golfer, both over course and competition. That’s the chef’s kiss.
Payne’s Pinehurst No. 2 was acres of 6” rough everywhere and tiny fairways. It was completely different.
The renovated/restored course is much better but is also much easier (Coore and Crenshaw removed over 40 acres of rough).
No? Who cares if people are over par, the winning score is always the lowest.
When you design a tournament like the USGA does where they *think* the winning score should be even par, you get clown golf.
The Masters is better than the US Open because excellent shots are rewarded and bad shots aren't. The US Open is a joke because excellent shots can get shafted and bad shots get "lucky".
The proof? The US Open always has these randos whose 1 or 2 wins IS the US Open, that's how much of a farce it's been and it's been that way for almost 30+ years. If you hit a ball in the middle of the green and it straight up funnels into a collection area, there's no challenge of skill involved and 100% about luck.
That, plus when this course was designed it was stimping 6 lol. What tournament golf has done to these courses have ruined them and makes them unplayable months after the event.
List of major winners since 1994 with 1 or 2 PGA wins (# of wins in parenthesis):
|US Open|Masters|The Open|PGA Championship|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|2022 - Matt Fitzpatrick (2)|2016 - Danny Willett (1)|2010 - Louis Oosthuizen (1)|2009 - Yang Yong-eun (2)|
|2005 - Michael Campbell (1)|2011 - Charl Schwärtzel (2)|2004 - Todd Hamilton (2)|2003 - Shaun Micheel (1)|
||2008 - Trevor Immelman (2)|1999 - Paul Lawrie (1)||
So, your "proof" is wrong lol
I detest Pinehurst #2 as a US Open venue. It’s always who can putt/chip from off the crowned greens. It been 10 years since they last hosted the event. Grow the grass up in the rough, narrow the fairways. That is a US Open venue.
If I were playing, the field would be a combined 601 over par today.
Pshhhh nonsense! You wish you could shoot a 170 at Pinehurst
You’re probably right haha
I have to believe even a 20hcp comes in under 150. I think I'd walk off the course after that.
Only chance I legit have of breaking 150 somewhere like that is to have the full course spotting my ball like the pros have. If it’s me and my boys out there, I’m losing a lot of shots I think.
As long as you aren't going deep into the trees you'd be fine.
Up and down for me refers to up to the green then down the other side
If I shot under 180 I’d buy round at the pub
Let’s go big dawg
Should we book tee time?
I’ve seen the question bounce around about putting from the furthest spot on the green and making par at pinehurst and I fear I’d have trouble breaking 100 on that challenge
My back hurts just thinking about swinging 170+ times
Well it would be mostly putting, so look on the bright side!
You should see his putting form...
Are you kidding me? Skull it down every fairway center, then hit my approach 30yd short, Texas Wedge it on and two putt for bogey.
Yep. That's the thing about being a bad golfer; all courses are pretty much the same challenge. 600 yard par 5? No big deal. 7 wood, 7 wood, 8 iron, sand wedge, 3 putt. It wouldn't be radically different from what I would expect to score at least a couple of times during each round.
You’re underestimating how hard it is going to be to stay on these greens and then putt when you’re there. In reality your sandwedge is rolling off the green, and you’re likely going to take more than three putts each time
On and off?
I'd shoot 140 at that course. Double par and pick it up on every hole.
I could do that one one hole!
Lmao I Played the front 9 on my oculus with pro speed greens. I hate this course but I love how Golf + vr lets me golf some of these amazing courses. https://preview.redd.it/2hpdqz4t3h6d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f0e6541936cec2db4dc98e55afe0f5e11bbf2d69
For a second, I thought your Oculus out on the course with you to help read greens. Wishful thinking on my part. That’d be a rad feature if it was able to give you reads on putts haha
It’s time to ascend. /r/golfsimulator
lol I have no room. Plus I havent really enjoyed the simulators I’ve been to lol I like the oculus as it feels/looks like I’m on an actual golf course and with the basically full club attachment I have it just feels great.
Yes I have VR as well but never tried golf
Don’t go cheap with attachment. I had my controller fly across the room swinging. Luckily it didn’t break my controller. Got the deadeye Drivr elite and it feels amazing. It’s about 90bucks. Has daily tournaments, scrambles, top golf, and mini golf. Some of the notable courses you can play are the old course, pinehurst no.2, Muirfield, pebble beach, Valhalla, TPC sawgrass. (They have a ton more and are always adding more as well.)
The Drivr elite is 90bucks lmao the game is around 20 bucks I believe.
This just reminds me, the first time I ever played golf on an actual course, thankfully my dad had us playing double par. I shot double par on every single hole that day, a clean 144. It’s more than possible! lol
"The fairest test of championship golf I have ever designed." - Donald Ross
Donald Ross didn’t expect people to hit a wedge 160+ yards to stop them on his greens though.
Donald Ross had no idea that greens could possibly get to 13 on a stimpmeter.
14*
The green designs are intelligently designed so that shots requiring longer approaches are easier to hold/have larger flat surfaces and the shorter approaches need to be from the right angle to hold. The modern game has neutralized a bunch of this.
The domed greens weren’t part of his design anyway, but tee to green he still built a masterpiece in No 2
Yes they are. https://www.todays-golfer.com/news-and-events/tour-features/us-open-2014/the-course/pinehursts-saucer-greens/#:~:text=“The%20edges%20of%20the%20putting,bunkers%20–%20flashy%20with%20sand%20faces. They have evolved overtime as can be expected. There are a lot of golden age courses that have domed shaped greens (for drainage reasons) but most don’t pop up like a “bug bite” from the topo and don’t have the green surfaces cut so low down the face.
No they weren’t. Coore discusses it in the Fried Egg video about Pinehurst. They didn’t take those back to the original greens because there was nobody alive who’d seen them or played on them. Link to the video where he discusses it here: https://youtu.be/tAKAZrGN7sU?si=KeQQWLFvX4z6kv7N
They are original as in “not changed” as how they “evolved overtime.” The original greens were sand greens.
Did you watch the video? Coore specifically talked about how the contours and shapes of the greens are different now than before, not just in surface but contours and shapes. The greens at Pinehurst didn't just perfectly erode into domed saucers.
Yeah it’s a great video. I don’t interpret what score says the same as you. I interpret it as they didn’t mess with them during the restoration. Obviously they are not the same as the OG Ross greens and know one knows exactly what those were like. However, having watched my golden era course being restored by Coore and Crenshaw team (they themselves are not directly involved, although they did our other course) it’s pretty obvious to me that the greens “grew out” from the original designs and got larger. Depending on the bunkering around a green and sand splash and mowing overtime, you either get a reduction in green size or an increase in green size over time. On our course most of them “shrunk” and they have been enlarging them. No. 2 appears to have done the opposite and grew overtime (which the tight mowing would suggest) but the playable area did not.
Picking up on what the other commenter said, the greens are an evolution of Ross’s original design. Yes with each renovation over the years, changes have been made to shape and contour, but severely elevated greens are a well-known feature of Donald Ross courses, Pinehurst having evolved into a severe example of this.
I don’t think every major should be like this though. I’m glad to leave this type of setup to the USGA/US Open.
I agree, i think masters being shot shape tourney, pga going low, us open being hell, and the open being links golf gives the players and fans the ideal variety
And we get to have the derpy dragon that is WM Open
And the Island Green at TPC Sawgrass…
The last 3 pgas before 2024 were equal or higher scores than the us open…. So theres that
I think the better way to think of the US Open vs PGA is that the USGA goes out their way to make the course the attraction of the week by burning down greens and growing out rough and that _sometimes_ means really bad scores but what it usually means is a lot of variability in the leader board. People watch the US Open to see a test of golfer vs. borderline insane course conditions. Doesn't always pan out that way, but that's the goal. The PGA in contrast is all about trying to put up a fair but challenging course to encourage the most competition. The attraction is the competition not the course. The PGA doesn't go out of their way to make the course a torturous affair but they do set it up to be challenging.
This.
How is a birdie race fun to watch? I want to see the best players in the world challenged by the majors.
The thing I love about a tough course is that on a Sunday anything can happen. A player can get hot and be 5 back and come back. On those tournaments when everyone is sitting the lights out it virtually eliminates the ability for a player to come back because you know that one of the top 5 guys will be able to put together a - 4 back 9.
The occasional birdie race is fun if they are doing it through more than dink and dunk and making some incredible shots since risk is low on easier courses. Which is when you have 10-15 guys lighting it up not the whole field typically.
I mean you act like all the top guys did so well. I watched Rory put two in the water on Sunday at Valhalla. I don’t need to watch this type of golf every week. What makes them the best in the world is watching them make birdies. Knowing that I can go out there and be lucky if I keep it under 90. This course this week is for the elite of the elite. The average hacker on Reddit would take 8 hours and 150+ strokes this week at Pinehurst. Me included. That’s not fun. It’s fun to watch but let’s not act like this is every course in America or it’s so easy to find courses that would challenge players to this level. Hell, I can tell a huge difference two weeks of no rain has changed my CC course. I bet Valhalla could be set up a lot harder this week. I live in Louisville and have seen in the short time since the PGA that the greens I play every week are way faster than a month agoZ
"What makes them the best in the world is watching them make birdies." Got to disagree. When the greens are mush like at Valhalla, even marginal shots are rewarded. Navigating #2 right now takes crazy skill and the course shows us the difference between a decent shot and a great shot. Who cares about "birdies" show me the elite skill.
Different strokes for different folks. I don't care what the final score is as long as it's competitive.
Sometimes when the pros are struggling it is easy to forget just how good they are and how hard the course is. When they are throwing darts at every single flag it is more evident how crazy good they are. I think at least once a year they should play a local muni that we can't break 90 at. They come in and shoot 55 and remind everyone that they aren't the same.
To me, it's the opposite. Marginal shots online stopped and stuck at Valhalla. #2 separates those on their game from those just off. Way more interesting to me.
I want to see the players playing the best win. Having a shot 15ft off your target end up in a worse spot than a shot 45ft off your target isn't rewarding the best players.
I don’t really get this argument. These guys know exactly where to hit it, if hitting the ball on the back left corner of the green and having it run down to the pin is the shot… that’s the shot. Minor errors are what separate the best. Which for me personally, is what I want to watch. I’ll agree that if the average golfer had to play this type of course it would be a disaster.
That same argument applies in any situation. If the green is soft a great shot might mean a 5-7' birdie putt versus a 20' birdie putt. Players are still rewarded for great shots. My club is a hard fast course, not Pinehurst level obviously, but there's some luck involved when things are hard and fast. Two balls could land a couple inches apart and have wildly different first bounces. On soft greens the first bounce is much more consistent. I don't really care if the final score is -20 or -2, as long as it's competitive!
And the point is that yes, they hit that shot, but a guy who goes 2 yards over that back left corner is now in complete jail while the guy who misses 25 yards short and right has a pretty easy two putt. That's not separating the best players from the good players.
Well club down. Collin was just talking about that in his interview. Sometimes you can’t go for it and have to take your medicine and hope for a par. This is the golf I want to see. Not guys sticking it within 3 feet over and over again. Go for it and if you don’t hit it perfect you’re fucked. Or, play strategic and grind down the others. Idk I’m not saying you’re wrong it’s just more my preference.
If players have the ability to stick it within 3 feet over and over again, maybe they should get rewarded for that? Like I don't want to watch a version of basketball where you can shoot a 3 pointer, but you lose a point every time you miss. Then people just never shoot 3 pointers and you've cut out half of the exciting shots. Imagine a team just holding the ball at the end of a tie game because you don't want to lose the point.
I hear ya. Some people prefer the birdie race, I prefer the brutal courses. Just preference.
I prefer risk / reward courses. There is risk here but little reward. Just aim for the center of the green and make more putts is the game plan these guys should be using.
Sounds like it is separating the players based on their skill in course management. If they all know the ideal shot and that the preferred miss is short, are you really still saying the small miss to the dead side is the better player?
I love that the US Open is often set up with so many challenges. Bethpage is an entirely different course but it matches the intensity of PH #2
I love No. 2 and also brutal/challenging golf courses. The winner at No. 2 plays ultra boring - long drives and aims at the center of the green while making a few more putts than the next guy. Not exactly the most thrilling golf. While the course is better post reno, the pre reno acres of rough course with the same greens was much much harder more challenging to watch.
How is watching double bogies all day fun? Want to make Valhalla tough, make the players and caddies find their own balls, that's going to cost them many strokes will it not? No more lift clean and place makes it harder also. Bring OB areas closer also will cause problems.
Time of year makes a difference. I live in Louisville. While I’ve never played Valhalla, I am a member of a course about 15 miles from there. The course has become a lot harder and greens much faster compared to a month ago. We had a good amount of spring rain this year but the last few weeks have been pretty dry and it shows. Might not make a drastic difference for pros I guess.
I don’t think that would’ve made a difference based off the scoring from past events there. The problem with Valhalla was that they could still go for the green on bad shots, there wasn’t really much to think about from what I remember (like that gimmick 13th hole, don’t drive it and you still make birdie). our version of hard they still see as easy
"How is watching pros score well fun to watch" do you need to ask this?
First of all, that isn’t what I said so you don’t need quotes. Second, that opinion seems to be pretty popular seeing how this thread went. So yea, seems like a legitimate question.
Variety is the spice of life
-10 won last year…
Traditionally, the PGA is for going low and the USGA is tough to shoot par...
This isn't really true. Valhalla sucked but Kiawah, Southern Hills, and Oak Hill were some of the toughest and most balanced tests of golf in recent major history.
People are wishing it was like 06/07 when +5 won the us open The last 5 years the winning scores are: -10 -6 -6 -6 -13 Then +1 but a -16 before that The brutal US opens are a thing of the past people still hang on to. Having said that… pinehurst is gonna have the place scorched dry come the weekend
I feel Winged Foot was great. I think only 2 ppl shot under par. The US Open is my favorite because I could play those courses. I probably won't because of the cost, but at least I could. I do also like how hard they generally are.
If you can get on LACC, the country club at Brookline, or Shinnecock you have very little problem getting on any course in the country All US open courses in the last 10 years throw in a few more recents: merion, olympic club, congressional oh and good luck just ‘getting on Bethpaige black’ and i have no fucking clue what you mean
Speaking of The Country Club it's impossible to play the US Open course without being a pro because it's a composite of their 18 and 9 hole courses. Guessing they might also occasionally use that setup for club championships and such but I have no idea.
Not even that. Bryson finished -6 but Matthew Wolff on back was even par or worse. In fact Bryson was the only player who broke par on Sunday (there were a few even rounds), and that was a -3 round at that.
It's supposed to be balls ass hot and dry as shit all week too, the course is only gonna get more insane.
Winner right now is trending to be in the -10 to -15 range. So yea it’s definitely a technically challenging course but with the quality of clubs and the control modern golfers have the top guys are still able to get themselves in the right positions.
First round usually has the best chance for the most people to shoot under par. It’s gonna be hot and dry and pins are only gonna get harder. 2014 open at pine hurst 2 there were 47 golfers under par after round 1. End of tournament there were 4, and kaymer was the only one lower than -1
There are 5 people right now who, if they shoot what they shot today every single day, will break -10. That's not trending towards the winner being -10 to -15. You have to look at the distribution as a whole, and scores regress to the mean. Barring a runaway, this trend is more towards the winner being in the -5 to -10 range.
Lmao what. Winner doesn’t get higher than -7
That definitely not how things are trending. Your forecast modeling is missing some very key assumptions.
Haha ok
As a guy who played kiawah the few days after the championship, from the championship tees, I can say, holy fuck. I have never grinded so hard in my fucking life.
What's your handicap, and what was your score
0.9 and I shot 84. The greens weren't bad but the wind combined with PGA greens and the fact you need to be in position on every single shot made it tough as fuck. Managed to offset some doubles with a couple birdies. Lol
0.9 and I shot 84. The greens weren't bad but the wind combined with PGA greens and the fact you need to be in position on every single shot made it tough as fuck. Managed to offset some doubles with a couple birdies. Lol
Welcome to my world. 501 over par sounds about right.
Probably a sign to switch to playing darts.
Tried it. Not living through that nightmare again.
Grant Horvats 3 under 1st was really impressive. And then Wes shoots 4-5 under in the 2nd round.
Yes, but that was a few weeks away from US Open. Greens were softer and rough not as penal as it is now. No way Grant Horvat shoots 3-under with these conditions. He still played a great round of golf though.
This also serves as good evidence to show to any “lol, there’s a bunch of players scoring *under* par so that means this course has become too easy!!!” comments you may see…
Datagolf has an even round today at +3.26 SG, better than Scottie’s current 50 round average. I think a course where *he* is expected to be over par is playing pretty dang tough, regardless of a few guys playing great rounds today.
Cut line would currently be +2. That is pretty low for a US Open so I don’t think the first day was too difficult.
Well yeah but it'd be +5 or higher if the scoring pace remains the same today
+4 but fair point.
Colin's bunker shot today was brutal.
This is how all professional golf should be! None of this 20 under ridiculousness.
Especially in majors.
I played Pinehurst #2 few years ago and was in the fairway bunker systems all day. The so called sand was like nothing I've ever seen. Had no idea where the ball would go. Just had to laugh about it.
I played #2 last year and will say it’s brutal.
How does this compare to other opening days for the US open?
I don’t enjoy watching players make bogeys. I can see that on any golf course in the world.
One-off courses like this are cool to watch, it's interesting to watch *every* high level player struggle at some point during a round without seeing an individual melting down.
I shot 73 at Pinehurst. I quit after 6 holes.
+5 / -20 don’t care lowest score wins
People can’t deal with a little variety lol it’s always whining when people can shoot low and praising when everyone struggles. Really weird.
It’s just here in reddit too. Internet echo chambers are wild
This sub is just filled with people who suck massive ass at golf and are happy when it *appears* that everyone else is drug down to their level of incompetency. If I turn on the TV and everyone is +3 or worse on Sunday it's getting turned off. I can go watch dogshit golf on YouTube.
Yeah doesn’t really help that people seem to ONLY look at the scoreboard to determine a good tournament. Back to the PGA, people bitch to no avail but that tournament came down to a winning putt on the 18th. People just want to see pros shooting over par so they can feel better about their own shitty game rather than just appreciating the best players in the world for being the best. I also find it funny people think they’d remotely stand a chance in the USO because everyone’s shooting high. People are just a bunch of idiots here on this sub
Where my sickos at
How’s your wedge?
Makes me feel good that even those who do it for a living have bad days
Was this the course where Mickleson stopped his ball from rolling off after a putt?
That was shinnecock hills in ‘18. They absolutely lost control of the golf course that year.
I’ve watched enough golf I wasn’t even remotely mad with the scoring at Valhalla unlike so many people on the internet. I’ve also watched enough golf I don’t see everyone shooting ahigh numbers at the USO as a “change of pace”. I don’t think every major should be a bogey-fest. People who complain either haven’t watched golf long enough, don’t know how to fully appreciate golf for what it is tournament-to-tournament, or both.
I've watched and played a shit ton of golf. The mush greens at Valhalla masked the quality of golf. You couldn't tell the difference between a marginal shot and a perfect shot because they all hit and stopped. Trajectory, curve and spin are what makes great golf great. None of that was on premium at Valhalla. Your golf palette isn't as discriminating as you imply.
You’re right I don’t have an extremely discriminatory palette when watching golf. I just enjoy watching good golf. Fact about the PGA is that shit came down to a winning putt on the 18th hole. Cry all you want. The pros are just really good. If you have an issue with that opinion I am sorry for you
Inability to process another POV -- someone's crying 🤣 One second you're bragging about your experience and discrimination, the next you're eating out of the trough. Just because someone doesn't agree with you is no reason to getting all huffy and defensive, snowflake.
Lol, you’re just dying to argue. Hope you got that dopamine rush
Is that why you contradicted OP’s post? And why you made it personal?
Lol, keep going
The irony 🤪
Sorry, just a game I play with overassuming redditors who read extremely deeply into words said out while working in the sun for 8 hours. You seem to care a lot about whatever I said than me, so I was just stringing you on near the end seeing how much more smoke you could blow 👍have a good night
What a load of 💩🤣 the stuff people tell themselves 🙃
It took all of them to get to 500. I’m about to do that solo at my 11:05 tee time
They all play the same course. It doesn’t matter if the score is even par or -20 after 4 days. You can’t look at Valhalla’s leaderboard and tell me it wasn’t a fantastic tournament. But it’s fun to watch them land the ball 10’ from the flag and end up off the green too, I guess.
What was the combined score of the last major, of any day?
I'm a 12 handicap and watching this on TV I believe there are some holes I'd just pick up my ball after a dozen strokes or so when I'm tired of going coast to coast in the greenside sand.
They'd be about 600 over if shotlink cables and other paraphernalia didn't give these guys a free drop just about anytime they were in the junk and blocked out from hitting at the flag.
Love to see these cry babies play in conditions that mimics my local municipal. Foot tall rough, trampoline greens dried and crowded holes.
Not really. The current score for the leaders (-5) would have won 13/20 of the last US Opens (and all but four of those that had lower scores were -6). This course is not that difficult.
Pretty confident they'll dial up the difficulty over the weekend. Winning score might not be much lower than -5
Maybe. Weather forecast looks hot and dry. Course didn’t look quite a “burned out” as last go around so they could reduce the watering on the greens and fairways to make them more difficult to hold. There aren’t a ton of pin options to really play with and I don’t think making the greens faster will cause that much impact (because they are relatively flat on top).
Theres a lot of pin options youll see the next 3 days when the pins are in different spots, making the greens faster will impact alot. Approach shots will roll more and ones that mightve held today will roll off the green, chip shots same point as above. Theyre hardly flat on top, just not cliffs like the sides are.
I have played the course a number of times. Including once with the former USGA Head of Championship Agronomy who was setting up the 2014 course. Those greens are “flat” on top for a course of this caliber. Surprisingly, TPC Sawgrass also has this feature. There are nowhere near the number of pin options on these greens per sqft as a normal course due to how they are designed. I think drying the greens out (so they are less receptive) will have a much greater impact than increasing their speed (through rolling). Only thing increasing the speed may do is make the chipping game more challenging (already brutal) and we may see more putts role off of the green (which can be fun). They could also tip out the course (I haven’t been paying attention to if they are using all the back tee locations).
This course is not that difficult? Only 8 guys are 2 under or better. 15 under par. Out of 156 guys.
I mean it’s a major championship so it’s obviously harder than a regular tour stop? That is a fairly typical breakdown for a major championship. The cut line would currently be +2 which is on the low side for a US Open. Also there are a bunch of amateurs and has beens (Phil, DJ, Etc) in the field that aren’t competitive.
Masters that have finished at -11 under have the same has beens. All majors do. My point is it should be hard to the point that below par is an accomplishment. 99 open, one of the greatest ever - guess where Payne’s putt on 18 put him? 279. One under. Champion golfer, both over course and competition. That’s the chef’s kiss.
Payne’s Pinehurst No. 2 was acres of 6” rough everywhere and tiny fairways. It was completely different. The renovated/restored course is much better but is also much easier (Coore and Crenshaw removed over 40 acres of rough).
No? Who cares if people are over par, the winning score is always the lowest. When you design a tournament like the USGA does where they *think* the winning score should be even par, you get clown golf. The Masters is better than the US Open because excellent shots are rewarded and bad shots aren't. The US Open is a joke because excellent shots can get shafted and bad shots get "lucky". The proof? The US Open always has these randos whose 1 or 2 wins IS the US Open, that's how much of a farce it's been and it's been that way for almost 30+ years. If you hit a ball in the middle of the green and it straight up funnels into a collection area, there's no challenge of skill involved and 100% about luck. That, plus when this course was designed it was stimping 6 lol. What tournament golf has done to these courses have ruined them and makes them unplayable months after the event.
List of major winners since 1994 with 1 or 2 PGA wins (# of wins in parenthesis): |US Open|Masters|The Open|PGA Championship| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |2022 - Matt Fitzpatrick (2)|2016 - Danny Willett (1)|2010 - Louis Oosthuizen (1)|2009 - Yang Yong-eun (2)| |2005 - Michael Campbell (1)|2011 - Charl Schwärtzel (2)|2004 - Todd Hamilton (2)|2003 - Shaun Micheel (1)| ||2008 - Trevor Immelman (2)|1999 - Paul Lawrie (1)|| So, your "proof" is wrong lol
People still shot -5 so definitely not hard enough for my liking
I detest Pinehurst #2 as a US Open venue. It’s always who can putt/chip from off the crowned greens. It been 10 years since they last hosted the event. Grow the grass up in the rough, narrow the fairways. That is a US Open venue.