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1leggeddog

These cards will come in so slowly due to production problems with semiconductors that scalpers will have no issue grabbing them first with bots. It's problems on top of problems on top of problems...


Jimbuscus

Even with the limiter, mining profits tripled for ETH mining this week (before Elon tweet) which is what this card would be doing. This card is still profitable with the limiter, it's a cop-out rather than putting the time and effort like Linus is making sure they go to the right people.


MC_chrome

And the yearly cycle of “we are *definitely* switching to POS now!” with Etherem will repeat, just like it has been since 2016. Fuck cryptocurrency, but especially fuck the miners and scalpers that take advantage of people.


zornyan

To be fair ETH has to get 2.0 out soon, considering there’s a substantial amount staked into 2.0 already, I agree it’s well overdue but there is a lot of work into getting it out this year, this removing the environmental impact entirely.


AssCrackBanditHunter

As someone with a passing knowledge of crypto, how does ethereum plan on getting rid of the environmental impact? Aren't cards still having to solve complex equations to get coins?


sevaiper

Now the validation will happen just through holding coins, rather than solving equations. It's very efficient and also allows the network to scale better.


TheDarkThought

Just to expand on what you have said, this is called a proof of stake system as opposed to a proof of work system, which is what bitcoin will most likely always use, and what ethereum is currently using until the system is updated to ethereum 2.0. Some cryptocurrencies are already using a proof of stake system, and they are using a tiny fraction of the amount of power that etherium and bitcoint require per transaction. The most notable crypto using POS already is Cardano (ADA).


Tephnos

> which is what bitcoin will most likely always use Kinda doubt this. If PoS proves successful on a large scale coin like ETH, then BTC will be under enormous pressure to switch too. Now that Elon dropped the whole environmental thing to the masses, governments will have legitimate reasons to begin crackdowns, as post COVID we're going to be going with the climate emergency as the next hot government topic that they have to do 'something' about.


capn_hector

even if ethereum does switch there will eventually be another big GPU-mined coin and sooner or later one of their prices will spike. Monero will spike or Vertcoin or something else. imo just targeting ethereum is not enough and NVIDIA should be trying to target *any bandwidth-hard cryptocoin*. coins that are not bandwidth-hard are much easier to make ASICs for and ultimately not that concerning in the long term as a result. but there is a real potential that some other coin could move in and keep using all those GPUs that are sitting around with another Ethash-style algorithm, there are already other coins using Ethash and probably other ones that rely on similar memory-hardness approaches, and all it takes is for one of them to hit big and suddenly we're right back in the same situation.


helmsmagus

Monero? It can't be mined for shit on a gpu


capn_hector

Used to be mined on GPUs (Vega was particularly good at it) but I guess that changed with the algorithm swap. There will eventually be another big GPU coin though, unless something is done to head it off at the pass. Just because Ethereum moved on, doesn't mean GPU mining is done. Sooner or later one of the other coins will moon and we'll be back in the same situation.


windowsfrozenshut

> Used to be mined on GPUs (Vega was particularly good at it) but I guess that changed with the algorithm swap. You're a couple years behind the times on this one, are you informed enough to be talking about crypto in a hardware sub?


helmsmagus

if eth actually switches, the amount of miners will crash other viable coins. They'll probably still find a way for it to be "delayed", though.


sonnytron

All the profitable coins have ASIC's already. Or can't be mined on GPU's as well as CPU's. Monero is garbage on GPU.


Jimbuscus

The individual miners who use their gaming cards when not playing are at least taking profitability per block from multi-card miners, I was disappointed with the Nicehash LTT video until I realized this.


Seanspeed

>The individual miners who use their gaming cards when not playing are at least taking profitability per block from multi-card miners Everybody mining is complicit. If millions of gamers are using their GPU's to mine, then it's still a substantial part of the problem all combined.


roflfalafel

Crypto mining is just a race to the bottom. It always has been. I say this as a dirty miner myself. It exploits our greed via FOMO and money making. And the power requirements causing environmental impact are real long term effects. People who mine know this - and they still mine. It really shows that the resources we use are not properly priced for the long term environmental impacts their consumption causes. Hoping other consensus algorithms take over, because I do love the idea of crypto currency. But that leaves Bitcoin as the elephant in the room.


wizfactor

>People who mine know this - and they still mine. It really shows that the resources we use are not properly priced for the long term environmental impacts their consumption causes. There's a term for this behavior: The Tragedy of the Commons. There's no free market way to stop this behavior until miners are forced to pay for the pollution they cause.


your_mind_aches

The solution is regulation. The governments of the world stepping in before the environmental damage becomes too hard to ignore. Gamers not being able to buy graphics cards is a relatively low priority comparably (understandably so), so we probably won't see any movement on that for years and years to come.


roflfalafel

It is in the hand of governments and Governments will only react when it’s too late and the disaster is staring them in the face unfortunately. I am personally curious what it will take for systemic change in the US to take place… climate change isn’t like a light switch, it’s a slow change over 50+ years. Will it take the evacuation of a city like New Orleans due to flooding or a complete depletion of an aquifer due to sustained drought? If the worlds pandemic response is any indicator, it’s going to be a shit show.


Goldkoron

I mine with my RTX 3080 that I got (by luck) whenever I am not home. My house is also run entirely on solar, I think people should be focusing more on society's way of producing energy rather than the consumers....


roflfalafel

It’s a multi faceted problem for sure. Renewables and carbon neutral power generation is a big part of that, and that’s where government regulation / incentives comes in. This is all my opinion, but I think the market isn’t pricing energy correctly when you take future environmental damage into account. This goes for both non-clean sources of electricity and gasoline. There’s a lot of literature out there on how to attack it (and all of the politics that come with that) but I think it’s the governments job to correct the supply side pricing of energy, as that will drive consumption to appropriate levels. It’s awesome that solar energy is is so affordable and accessible these days - and I’d encourage anyone to do that if it makes sense for them - but I agree with you - this isn’t an issue individual consumers can fix.


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stonekeep

Uh, I hate to break it to you, but the card consumes almost no power when its idling. Or, you could just shut down the PC and consume no power at all. So it absolutely makes a difference when we discuss environmental impact. And the more people are a part of cryptocoin market, the more popular it is, the more hype it gets, the higher the prices stay, the longer will the issues around them last. Of course I'm not saying that you shouldn't mine on your own GPU, but at least be aware that you're a part of the problem. Very small part, but a part nonetheless.


GodOfPlutonium

the power use issue is a legitimate point , however > And the more people are a part of cryptocoin market, the more popular it is, the more hype it gets, the higher the prices stay, the longer will the issues around them last. isnt really a good argument. The critical thing here is that (for all of the popular coins atleast) the amount mined over a specfic period of time is fixed, so more people mining isnt leading to more coins being circulated, more people mining means the same amount of coins being mined are distributed across more miners. So people mining at home *are* taking coins away from mining operations and therefore reducing their profitability. And theyre not adding any fuel to the crypto bonfire because those coins would have been mined and sold anyway. The only real negative is the energy useage


stonekeep

I'm not saying that more crypto is mined. But more people are getting into it, more people talk about it on social media, more hype is built around it and so on. If someone is mining on their GPU, the chances that they will get into the crypto market are much, much higher than for an average person. Imagine if one person mined it and no one talked about it. The coin would be worthless. More people being in the crypto ecosystem means more buzz, which is actually driving the price up, which means more people talk about it, buy and sell, and so on. Again, one person mining on their gaming GPU doesn't contribute much. To be more precise - they contribute close to nothing. But when we take a million people doing it... It adds up.


Raikaru

eth 2.0 is already a thing though?


robotevil

July. Honestly, I think that's where all this ends. The markets are already shaky and probably pretty close to a 2017 style crash soon (if hasn't already started). The only reason why it came back around this time is because Eth was a coin worth mining. People made money in mining, invested in other crypto, markets went up, people got FOMO and then we had ourselves another bubble. You combine that bubble popping and no more profitable coin to mine anywhere in the near future, it's going to be dark times ahead for crypto investors. I honestly don't think that mining will be a thing that comes back anytime soon. Everything will be proof of stake likely moving forward. Maybe if Eths proof of stake idea fails we will see a new coin fill the void, but it's going to be awhile.


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Esava

And using insane amounts of electricity which causes heaps of environmental problems.


ForgottenCrafts

To be fair. If we're talking about an individual mining, the mining process doesn't take more power to mine than to render a car in Cyberpunk. If you look at it with a purely objective lens, mining makes more sense since it makes money while gaming does not


Esava

But people usually don't play cyberpunk 24/7, and there are usually not any server farms with tens of thousands of instances of cyberpunk either.


ForgottenCrafts

I'm talking exclusively about individual who passively mine. I agree that server farms are bad. Passively mining has virtually no effect.


Esava

Passively mining still means they are maxing out their GPUs while they normally wouldn't, doesn't it?


ForgottenCrafts

Nothing prevents you from going in Afterburner and tweak it.


118R3volution

I fully appreciate where you’re coming from, but the small “miner” at home with a 250w GPU running is an pretty small impact, compared to shipping industries (freight ships, trucks, etc). I agree with reasonable regulations, but if your not using absurd kWh, and have a decently efficient home, someone should be allowed to do as they please.


HavocInferno

It's a good idea with inefficient implementation and absolutely horrible reality because people have already skewed it into their new speculative nonsense. The problems of crypto are aplenty, and people being mad about not getting gaming cards is pretty far down the list. You're at best being disingenuous about the criticism against crypto.


Snerual22

Crypto is a libertarian crackpot fantasy. In stead of democratically elected governments that control currency, you put it in the hands of whoever can hoard the most of it. Wow, such an improvement... The only reason crypto is skyrocketing right now is because people are bored and interest rates are zero so they are looking for other places to make money.


Al-Azraq

This. Cryptofans won't stop playing the 'freedom' and 'uncontrolled' card but this week one very rich person wrote a Twit and completely manipulated the market. When libertarians say 'freedom' and 'uncontrolled', they just mean shifting the control from democratic governments to private companies and rich people that can manipulate the market at their will without any consequence. You won't see Musk doing the same with stocks, right? That's because he will end up in jail in not time as there are regulatory and democratically elected institutions that protect us from it.


windowsfrozenshut

> You won't see Musk doing the same with stocks, right? That's because he will end up in jail in not time as there are regulatory and democratically elected institutions that protect us from it. Uhh, do you not remember the "funding secured" tweet from him in 2018 that got him charged with fraud by the SEC? I don't think you are informed enough to support any conversation about this.


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Snerual22

Video games? Yeah sure it's not about spending as much electricity as the entire country of Austria (most of which generated in Chinese coal plants) just to move a few bits around. Also, it's possible to be against certain concepts of crypto while also hating lobbying. No need to straw man here. Of course the current monetary system has issues but bitcoin, Ethereum and the likes create way more issues than they solve.


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Killerfist

Harsh reality but cryptocurrencies aren't about currencies anymore nor are they solving any currency related problems, they are simply cryptostocks and people view and treat them as such.


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Geistbar

You capitalize fiat like it’s some major point. Get off the crackpot economics and you’ll learn that there’s nothing wrong or bad about fiat currency. In fact, it’s better than resource backed ones eg gold.


windowsfrozenshut

Imagine living in Venezuela..


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teutorix_aleria

What exactly is the problem with FIAT?


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windowsfrozenshut

Guaranteed that anyone with such a staunch opinion like this is in the first world living a privileged life.


Blacksad999

It would be impossible for retailers or AIB partners to do anything remotely like what Linus is doing. lol The pure logistics involved making sure **millions** of GPUs go to specific people would be staggering. How many GPUs do you think Linus has gotten to people exactly? Probably something like 1000 or so, if we're being **overly** generous. Linus is a multi millionaire who is doing this because: 1. He's a nice guy 2. It gets a lot of free press and goodwill for Linus Media Group 3. It gets people's attention which gets views/clicks


zyck_titan

Even just 1000 is a high estimate quite frankly. A fully loaded pallet of GPUs is only like 100 GPUs. They've shown videos of their new warehouse/logistics department, I doubt they'd have the capacity to hold more than a couple hundred GPUs at a time. Particularly when you think about the hardware that they receive and hold for reviews and testing, and their own branded merchandise.


capn_hector

> 3. It gets people’s attention which gets views/clicks The way you get a GPU from Linus is that you explicitly have to watch all his videos the moment they come out to catch whatever overlay he sneaks on there so that you can be one of the first 50 people to complete the quiz. It’s explicitly a tactic to drive clicks. For what amounts to a couple grand of overhead (you are ultimately paying for the GPU, he is just letting you buy it) he drives hundreds of thousands of subscriptions and massive viewer engagement that the YouTube algorithm loves (fresh clicks as soon as a video comes out are better than a long tail of clicks over the next year). He does one drop every 2-4 weeks and drives engagement across 10-15 videos during that timespan, even if he isn't actually making a profit on the GPUs themselves he is coming out massively ahead on his youtube revenue as a whole. (Linus has never been anything less than shrewd at manipulating The Algorithm and that's why he's a multimillionaire making funny faces on youtube and we're pumping gas.) Meanwhile he’s pushing mining to his viewership and mining is what’s really causing the problem in the first place, and people love him and will defend him to the ends of the earth for doing it because he sells them a pallet of gpus once a month.


D3nj4l

And however successful Linus will be, it won't do jack for people outside NA.


Blacksad999

Yeah, the shipping costs and other taxes/fees would be prohibitively expensive unfortunately.


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SoapyMacNCheese

Correct. Nvidia's ideal world is gamers buying all the RTX cards and miners buying all the CMP HX cards. These limiters aren't a PR attempt. They're being put in place to increase profits. Forcing a divide in the GPU options means Nvidia can charge miners more for less, increase availability for some RTX cards, and destroy the 2nd hand market that would have exploded in a year or two when the miners sold off all their 3000 series cards.


T-Baaller

> miners sold off all their 3000 series cards. That's assuming they won't just move to another PoW coin.


Pimpmuckl

Unless all those other pow coins see a significant increase in value, the immense difficulty explosion on these coins when the ETH miners switch will make it much harder to generate a profit


Geistbar

Nvidia wants profits here but I’d argue the ability to sell mining cards is a distant third priority in that effort. First is just simple market share. They benefit a ton by being the “default” GPU. This increases proprietary feature adoption and ensures better optimization for their hardware. The net result being that their products are more competitive as a result of significant adoption. Second is the second hand market in the future. Miners will dump their cards on the used market once it’s no longer profitable to mine. Those used cards compete with new cards — but Nvidia only gets money from new cards. Limiting the future used market maximizes future revenue. They’re selling everything they make now anyway, it’s best for them to sell in a way that limits future impact on revenue.


capn_hector

> First is just simple market share. yeah I don't know why everyone acts like NVIDIA doesn't care about marketshare. well, really I do know, Linus did a pro-mining video (today's sponsor: Nicehash!) where he said "NVIDIA doesn't care about gamers" and since that tickled everyone's "NVIDIA is the worst!" itch they went along with it, with a helping hand from self-interested miners defending mining. having everyone buy AMD would be bad enough, but even worse you can’t really buy AMD either, so they are losing marketshare to *consoles*, and that's a competing *platform* with its own lock-in. Once you start making friends on console you'll want to keep playing with them, once you start building up a big library of console games and MTX purchases and premium coins you're not going to throw away the money you've spent and go back to PC. Losing marketshare to consoles means a *permanent* loss of a significant number of users, they will be buying a PS5 Pro instead of a 40-series NVIDIA. It's true that Jensen doesn't care about *your personal gaming experience* but he very much does care about money, and losing gamers is losing money not just in the short term but in the long term. Gaming is still an extremely important segment of NVIDIA's revenue, it's only recently that it stopped being the majority, they can't afford to just give up the gaming segment. Collectively, NVIDIA does "care" about gamers, or at least their money. (but really no company cares for any consumer, just their money, Lisa Su doesn't give a shit about the personal wellbeing of the average r/AMD pleb either. And in this case, NVIDIA’s actions are aligned with the interest of most consumers.)


Jimbuscus

I'm not referring to Nvidia, I mean OEM's like Galax listed in this article.


NynaevetialMeara

Yes but you it is still being fased out by the beggining of the year.


1leggeddog

And they'll probably figure out a way to bypass the limiter too :/


roflfalafel

It would help if NVidia doesn’t release the bypass themselves. Like they did for the initial 3060. Regardless, that botched driver release isn’t optimal for large scale miners, as it requires Windows and at least 8x PCIe lanes per card to work. I don’t know of any other work around.


ShadowRomeo

>It would help if NVidia doesn’t release the bypass themselves. Like they did for the initial 3060 Yeah man, i am starting to get tired of people keep saying the misconception of it's people bypassing the limiter, when what really happened is it's Nvidia themselves released the bypass limiter for 3060 and it didn't got hacked at all because it's near impossible to do due to the bios being encrypted that Nvidia is the only one who has access modifying it. If Nvidia doesn't make the same mistake again these mining nerfed GPUs wouldn't have been bypassed at all.


BFBooger

Tripled? How so? ETH is off its high from earlier this week, and it has tripled in price since the end of January. I suppose transaction fees might have gone up or something, but triple profits in a week seem like a tall tale.


Jimbuscus

It tripled because of the ERC20 tokens like Shiba which run on Etherium network had to pay mining fees, there where huge volumes until the big dip from yesterday. r/nicehash and see everyone celebrating the increased profits, wouldn't hurt to do a minute of research before looking dumb.


BFBooger

Wouldn't hurt not to be a jerk. I did some research, looked at the price history of ETH for the week, then month then year. Now, is this profitability going to sustained? Because that is all that matters here. Nope, its a one time blip at least according to the sub you linked. So yeah, the "tripling" bit having a long term effect on GPU demand you pointed to is BS.


Lost4468

> it's a cop-out rather than putting the time and effort like Linus is making sure they go to the right people. I don't see how this is going to work either. Miners basically have £1000+ to fool the system, that would be so easy to do. I don't know how they're verifying it? But I'm sure they could just go to a real gamer and say "hey we will pay you £200 if you do this for us"...


windowsfrozenshut

> making sure they go to the right people. /r/gatekeeping


FlatspinZA

I've already seen the RTX 3060 in a couple of online stores, just short of £900. No thanks.


1leggeddog

yeah now retailers aren't helping either


FlatspinZA

Just clocked an RTX 3060, not even a Ti, at OnBuy for £1119.99.


jonydevidson

muh scalperz Jesus fuck, am I tired of this narrative. If scalpers can buy it, so can you.


Fisher9001

Can you elaborate? How does one make order faster than a computer program?


thisisnthelping

I would simply pull myself up by my own bootstraps and will a new GPU into existence with the power of positive thinking


SuperConductiveRabbi

Back in my day I got a Voodoo 2 for $199 by just strolling into CompUSA and asking the salesman what he'd recommend for Quake II. Kids should just walk into stores and ask for a video card!


Core-i7-4790k

This is a beautiful parody of the stubborn boomer copy pasta


thisisnthelping

Kids today complaining about not being able to get their own graphics cards, maybe they should stop expecting handouts just walk into the store and talk to the manager. They appreciate someone who can talk face to face and you should get a GPU with just a little hard work!


capn_hector

yep, just pay $600 a month for a paid bot service, "anyone can do it". actual humans have no chance against the weapons-grade bots that actual scalpers are using. a lot of the time they aren't even using the web interface, they're just poking requests into the backend or sending web requests that do things like bypass checking whether a product actually exists and just add it to the cart, so by the time a normal person could maybe see "add to cart" the bots have already grabbed them. and you as a home user *certainly* don't have access to a botnet that lets you spam thousands of requests a second so you grab them the millisecond they're available.


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Geistbar

It’s worse than 60 seconds. More like 3…


Killerfist

Do you know what scalpers are?


a_seventh_knot

what a weird world we've built for ourselves.


TechnoL33T

From where I'm sitting it's more of a "What a world you've all built for me. I'd like a transfer."


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Jimbuscus

With the limiter still in place they are still profitable, ETH mining tripled over the previous week (before Elon tweet), it doesn't matter how profitable if you can earn more than the cost to buy the card it's just a matter of how much profit.


windowsfrozenshut

> And if there isn't a way to bypass it, they'll just scalp the cards. I like how all the gamerz have more or less turned a blind eye to this. Mention anything about mining, and the rage comes out, but I haven't seen any hate towards scalpers since before mining picked up.


capn_hector

Cutting performance by half is not enough given how volatile crypto prices can be. Mining profit tripled in the last week, even cutting performance in half would just get mining demand down to where we were a month ago. Stop trying to finesse it and just nuke mining performance into the ground.


Fauked

If only mining was the only problem. I would be nice to see them split the cards into a new type of lineup like their pro card variants but for mining specifically. But overall they need to do the work to make sure the cards are going into the right hands.


capn_hector

[that's... exactly what they're doing?](https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/cmp/)


ReusedBoofWater

There's also people who mine their favorite/target cryptocurrency even when unprofitable in hopes that price movement like such experienced by ethereum makes their effort worth it eventually.


Tm1337

While that happens, simply buying at the lower price is more cost effective. Why pay more for electricity when you can use that money to buy your favorite cryptocurrency?


ReusedBoofWater

I'd assume there's a lot of gamers out there that are too young for the workforce, don't understand the concept of working for money or that things like electricity cost money, and are simply mining whatever their friends or internet strangers told them to. To them, they're pulling money out of thin air.


mmkzero0

Honestly, not only will these limiters not help with the current shortage; I also greatly oppose artificial limitations set in place with a product I could buy and, at that point, own. But it‘s nothing new with NVidia (like artificially locking people out of or at least making VM GPU Passthrough hard and complicated in the past).


[deleted]

I'd understand maybe if there was a discount, but paying the same if not more for a worse product is terrible.


goldcakes

have you tried getting cards at MSRP? nvidia not raising prices is good


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azn_dude1

Can you imagine the blowback if Nvidia decided to raise their prices to scalper prices? It would be a PR disaster.


zyck_titan

With crypto-currencies being what they are right now; these GPUs are money printers. The demand curve for devices that print money is not exactly sensible, and I don't think you really want the precedent of $4000 MSRP consumer GPUs being a thing.


cplusequals

Well realistically right now we're experiencing the same thing except instead of buying through retailers we're buying through scalpers. Neither precedent nor price set value. Value sets price. Nvidia stopped setting the price of cards a long time ago. Trying to eliminate scalpers with esoteric processes of selecting who can buy what, while valiant, is ultimately futile. Trying to fight supply and demand is like trying to fight gravity.


_ahrs

This is also going to be an unpopular opinion but what good is an overpriced but available graphics card that sits on a shelf all day because no sane human being is willing to spend 3x the MSRP for them? I wanted to buy a 6900 XT but they're all 3x the MSRP and in stock because nobody is willing to pay this much for them. Instead I upgraded my CPU to a 5950X and resigned myself to never being able to buy a graphics card of the calibre of a 6900 XT for MSRP for a good couple of years.


cplusequals

Your opinion is the predominant one here and on most computer subreddits. The thing is, the cards aren't sitting on a shelf all day. They're being bought and sold at those prices right now. You have a choice between the cards trading at that price from legitimate retailers or scalpers. I would prefer the former because I'm less likely to get scammed, I'm going to be able to easily access the warranty, and I don't want to do business with some script kiddie who is sniping these cards just to make a quick buck selling them on craigslist or ebay.


_ahrs

> The thing is, the cards aren't sitting on a shelf all day. They're being bought and sold at those prices right now Oh, but they do sit on shelves all day (at one point I saw a retailer with one 6900 XT in stock that didn't sell for months, it's possible they have more than one and are lying about stock numbers but I doubt it).


cplusequals

I didn't mean literally in retail stores on shelves. I meant in stock in general. Ideally you should have goods waiting to be sold to people who want to buy them just like everything normally is. As long as product is moving roughly as fast as it can be replaced it's at the price equilibrium. Right now graphics cards sell out immediately. My suggestion is not to raise the price to the point nobody wants to buy them but rather to the point where scalpers won't bother since the profit they're getting on each sale wouldn't be worth the risk/effort of buying and selling to another party. Clearly at that price cards would not be "sitting around on shelves" because right now the scalpers are selling them to people at that price.


SANICTHEGOTTAGOFAST

If they put that card up for sale online it'd have been sold the day it was listed.


BoltTusk

Wait till they not raise prices by obsoleting the non-Ti cards


capn_hector

how long have AMD and NVIDIA been limiting performance (lower FP64 and FP16/FP8, slowing down when they see CAD software running, etc) and locking features to workstation and enterprise cards, exactly? well over 10 years at this point, isn't it? funny how miners never cared about that... look, it's a money-generating asset, you're operating as a business here, pay your fair share. nobody cared until miners started making a nuisance of themselves, they've disrupted the market literally three times so far. unlocking GPU passthrough was likely meant as a bit of an olive branch to prosumers - the message was likely intended to be "look, we don't care about prosumers doing weird homelab shit, we just don't want miner messing up the market". because nobody's messing up the market when they buy a couple 2080 Tis for a ML rig to play with at home. And miners are.


mmkzero0

„We don’t want Miners messing up the Market.“ Yeah right, I call loads of bs. NVidia doesn‘t care about gamers. It also doesn’t care about the consumer/prosumer/professional in general. What NVidia (and to a Degree, AMD) only cares about is Profit and Market Share. If NVidia would be pro-Consumer, anti-Miner they would not split Silicon allocation to new Mining-Only GPUs. They wouldn’t pull this crap about „unhackable Cards with less hashrate“. As a reminder, these „unhackable“ Limiters got circumvented by Beta Drivers and 20$ HDMI Dummy Plugs Day 1. NVidia doesn’t care. All they want is to sell their GPUs, and thus make Money. Also, NVidia allegedly sold lots of cards directly to Miners. And no, not your private miner with 5 to 10 Cards. I mean the big, organized groups of individuals who fill halls with hundreds, if not thousands of cards to make a profit through Mining. These guys are the ones causing the shortage, pulling shady back alley deals, or conspiring with manufacturers directly. If NVidia really cared, they would not do that. They would limit purchases to one card per person. They would put measures in place that prevented bots from buying all stock. But they don’t. All of this applies to AMD as well, more or less.


roflfalafel

Agreed. Regardless of your stance on the crypto mining boom, artificial limitations like this are short sighted and purposefully cripples hardware. Even if you don’t mine with these cards, it opens the door for companies to segment their cards out by features in the future. Also - when nVidia announced the limiter, they limited the hash power by 50%. Since nVidia did that, Ethereum price has more than doubled ($1800 when announced / $4100 yesterday) so this type of limiter doesn’t really do much in terms of profitability for miners. Hard limits like this are always stupid.


cstar1996

All this slippery slope bullshit just shows people don’t know the history of GPUs, cause Quadro and Radeon Pro happened over a decade ago. The only reason further market segmentation is being considered now because crypto is destroying the GPU market. And the vast majority of gamers would rather have non-mining GPUs they can buy than mining GPUs they can’t.


DrakesOfSanitary

GeForce has been limited since the 4th Gen GPU on how many # of encoding sessions it can do while the Quadro(Professional) has unlimited encoding sessions. https://developer.nvidia.com/video-encode-and-decode-gpu-support-matrix-new


reddituser487

Its not short sighted, it's the only realistic solution to the mining problem.


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reddituser487

when a billion dollar world leading hightech company wants to make it work, they will. youll see.


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TaintedSquirrel

I've said it a few times already but I was closely monitoring 3060 prices on Ebay for a few weeks after launch, prices went up about $200 ($700 -> $900) when the mining driver leaked. They were still trending downward until that point, too, so they probably would've kept going lower. It definitely helps.


InevitableVariables

It is not going to stop botters from buying it out but it will probably lower the premium. As long as their is a silicon shortage then this will happen.


Seanspeed

Other than maybe Navi 21, it's not like production volume for these products is so low, it's just that there's so much fucking demand. And miners are a \*massive\* part of this. If we can reduce the demand from miners, it should go a long way in improving things. Consoles like the XSX and PS5 are hard to get and scalpers are trying to buy them up, but it's at least not impossible to get one for a reasonable price if you're persistent. If GPU's can get to that sort of situation, a lot of people would be quite happy.


InevitableVariables

This won't be the case. The ti models will sell out instantly and be put up instantly for insane rates. RTX 3080 may be cheaper scalper with the ti model around. Eth mining profits will tank in July with the new update so there isn't a flood of people paying 2x for mining GPUs. Miners are not causing the insane prices. Its the advent of bots with the silicon shortage. As long as people need GPU, they will buy it out and flip it. Botting has been going on for awhile not at this widescale because people know they can make insane profits. It sucks but unless there is more stock, everyone will have to pay a premium unless you are in a queue based system. PS5 and XBX are hard to come by because of botting.


capn_hector

> Miners are not causing the insane prices. Its the advent of bots who do you think the bots are selling to? scalpers don't remove any inventory from the market, any inventory they buy is sold shortly thereafter. they are an arbitrage mechanism, between a market where cards are cheap (best buy/etc) and where they're expensive (ebay). when the demand is lower, ebay prices come down and it's no longer worth the time for scalpers, and it starts being possible for normal people to buy them without using bots. the problem is 100% mining demand. the magnitude of mining demand is enormous compared to gaming demand, every single miner would happily buy 100 cards as long as they're making $25 a day, and that is 100 gamers that don't get cards. Each miner creates *significantly* more demand than a gamer, even though they are smaller in number they have an outsized impact on the market.


InevitableVariables

Who do you think the people who bot are selling their ps5 and xbox series x to? Watch what happens to the ti release with the nerfed hashrate. I will comeback to this and show you that the scalping is still insane.


Core-i7-4790k

It's also much easier to get a series x/ps5 then it is GPUs, because miners aren't buying consoles... even CPUs are relatively easy to get compared to GPUs even though demand is high because surprise, miners aren't buying those up


InevitableVariables

It is much easier to get PS5 and xbox series x because they are mass produced by one manufacturing unit with an AMD chipset that is easier to pump out then a specific GPU company (MSI, ASUS, EVGA, and ect...) with a series of GPU (Nnvidia) using the specific design with a line up of 5+ GPU along with different models of each GPU. EVGA has 10 different RTX 3080s. Xbox and PS5 APU makes it easy to pump but it is still getting scalped. Not to mention AMD new GPU series are a downgrade at mining from the previous gen (5700 xt is 10% better than 6700 xt) and still getting scalped. Pokemon cards are being scalped. Shoes are being scalped. Eth mining gets murdered in July with the update to how mining works with the ETH network. Do people not realize whats happening to mining then? rtx 3080 ti might bring down the rtx 3080 price but every rtx ti series will be sold out instantly and sold for double. Bots have been botting for years but its really profitable to buy something that is in such limited supplies and flip it. I want you to message me after the rtx 3080 ti launch to see who is right.


sgent

X Box X is going for 50% above retail on ebay, PS5 about the same. The same MSRP 3070 is going for 350%.


InevitableVariables

Because the xbox series x and playstation 5 have more product being pumped out... Look at the price history of the two systems on ebay... Look at it when it was at its worst versus now.


capn_hector

scalpers are a symptom, not a problem directly. the ultimate problem is that miners are willing to pay $2600 for a 3080 because every card makes $25 a day, and when you can make a cool grand for every single GPU you can get, then scalpers get aggressive. "scalpers" aren't a problem for 5600X or 5800X, because ebay prices are so low there's hardly any profit in it, it's not worth scalpers' time. Same for consoles, or 5900/5950X, they're a little more profitable so they are scalped to a small degree, but it's not like GPUs where they're botted to the extent that the best buy buy button never even activates for a normal user. doubling your money on every card you sell is a *powerful* incentive to make sure you are getting your hands on as many cards as humanly (really *mechanically*) possible. scalpers are not removing any cards from the market, maybe you can't get one at Best Buy but they still end up on ebay, and that's part of the market too. they are a conduit to the people who are willing to pay $2600, in market terms they're an arbitrage mechanism from one market where product is cheap (best buy) to a market where it's expensive (ebay), but they aren't actually *removing any product from the market*. Everything they buy is sold again shortly thereafter, it's sold to *someone*. the real problem is that mining is a bottomless pit of demand, when a card is making 25 bucks a day then miners want as many as they can get, every single miner will happily buy 100 cards, big miners will buy tens of thousands of cards, and they will make their money back in a few months. and that means instead of satisfying 100 gamers you're satisfying one miner. and that's not going to change until either NVIDIA does a *real* mining limiter (not 50%, but like 99% reduction so they are completely useless for mining) or until crypto profit goes down on its own.


PhunkeyPharaoh

This. Exactly this. Well put.


TechnoL33T

It's not a start. They're slamming it into reverse.


LivingGhost371

I'd prefer that all the gaming cards have a function that immediately destroys the card if it detects mining...That's about the only chance of gamers ever getting a gaming card.


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porcinechoirmaster

Maybe a bit excessive. I'd settle for exchanges to be taxed heavily.


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capn_hector

> This won't do anything other than limit gamers choice if they want to mine on the side as a hobby. it's better to be able to buy a 3080 for $1000 and not be able to mine on it, than to have to pay $2600 and be forced to mine in your spare time to try and make up the difference. and yes, $1000 is about where 3080s were sitting before mining took off.


SmokingPuffin

If the limiter sticks, it will have a noticeable impact on pricing. A GPU with halved hashrate isn't worth half as much, but maybe 75% as much. Pricing is still gonna be nonsense though. We're talking about 3060 Tis that sell for $1000 rather than $1300.


TechnoL33T

It takes some serious mental gymnastics to think that reducing a product's capability artificially increases its value.


ResponsibleJudge3172

And that's why the cards will get cheaper. (ie closer to msrp)


your_mind_aches

I mean. It quite literally does. If it's not a literal money printing machine, of course it's gonna be cheaper.


TechnoL33T

Also don't forget that it's literally a money printing machine.


TechnoL33T

Money isn't value.


your_mind_aches

When the cost is prohibitively expensive, it doesn't even make a difference.


TechnoL33T

You think it's value goes up based on how it's only exclusive to your specific purposes because you just wanna draw extra value in your direction. You're greedy and would vote for discriminatory practice so long as you benefit.


your_mind_aches

I'm greedy. The one who just wants to buy a piece of hardware at a reasonable price for a utility. Not the ones who will snatch up the hardware at inflated prices to literally make a quick buck.


TechnoL33T

Your use case is no more valid than theirs. What's reasonable is determined by market forces, not your budget. You "buy" while they "snatch"? Your case is utility and theirs is not? Do I have to tell you how Bitcoin works? Their mining supports the calculations to run the whole network for their currency. That's as utilitarian as it gets. You. Are. Greedy. Also selfish and hypocritical.


your_mind_aches

It's not a currency. It's basically a wealth horde. Its value is to go up and make money. Like you said, it's a money printing machine that just wastes energy. No problem with trying to limit that so someone else can use it for literally anything else.


kayakiox

halve the return of the gpus and then the crypto doubles in value lol, sadly I don't think this will help enough


Seanspeed

>gamers still are paying scalped prices as much as miners. Only gamers that also mine would be paying $2000+ for an RTX3080 or something. In which case they are also miners. People who \*just\* want to game are not paying these prices. That's insanity. People only pay that much cuz they think they can make money from it ultimately. >This won't do anything other than limit gamers choice if they want to mine on the side as a hobby. Boo fucking hoo.


[deleted]

You're dreaming if you think only miners are paying scalped prices. Look at the Steam survey results, prices are still high, and the amount of cards are going up.


capn_hector

> Look at the Steam survey results, prices are still high, and the amount of cards are going up. did *you* actually look at the results? 3080 had 0.00% growth the last month, and the previous three it was less than half the growth rate (around 0.11% per month) of the previous three months (around 0.24% per month). but literally the thing you said isn't actually true at all, 3080 didn't go up at all this month, 3070 only went up 0.09%, miners are essentially getting *everything* right now.


inyue

Did you ever consider that these steam users are also... mining? I mean, it's free money.


TechnoL33T

Here I am. I pay those prices. I find my hobby to be twice as entertaining as your mother and pay 4x as much since I can just keep it in a box.


TechnoL33T

If anything, this is gonna fuck with my game performance.


cstar1996

Mining isn’t a hobby


ASDFAaass

Honestly I don't know how scalper bots work but if they are linked by a single bank account or something (please people correct me if im wrong) they can eliminate those shitty scalpers.


NikoStrelkov

Don't care until we start seeing those on shelves.


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abbzug

> There's no excuse for this. Wanna stop scalpers? Make enough product. Shit, why didn't anyone else think of this?


TechnoL33T

They're actively avoiding it because it's gonna take extra steps to deal with the silicon shortage and they would rather just run until their leash runs out or someone else solves the problem for the rest of the industry.


sgent

To make enough product to bring prices down to MSRP you would need 4-5x the total current hashpower. There aren't enough fabs in the world to do it.


[deleted]

Build more fabs. Simple


TechnoL33T

So make more? This is an engineering problem, so engineer it. In the face. With bricks.


cstar1996

Do you know how long it takes to build a fab?


TechnoL33T

Do you know how long it takes to go out of business because you don't have shit to sell? Do you know how much longer the Earth is gonna keep spinning? Do you know how long the sentence should be for crippling a product's use cases aside from safety measures?


cstar1996

>Do you know how long it takes to go out of business because you don't have shit to sell? That's not happening to Nvidia or AMD, so is not relevant. >Do you know how much longer the Earth is gonna keep spinning? Until it gets hit by something sufficiently large to stop it or till it's swallowed by the sun. >Do you know how long the sentence should be for crippling a product's use cases aside from safety measures? Zero. Make your own if you don't like it. Why don't you answer the question? It takes five+ years to build a modern fab, and probably longer since ASML, the only supplier of the lithography machines required for cutting edge nodes, are sold out. Nvidia cannot increase product in the short term.


[deleted]

I agree with you on the first point but the last point has no thought put into it


TechnoL33T

You're wrong and I'm not gonna give you the answer why. You'll just have to figure it out yourself.


[deleted]

Way to get people on your side. You think they HAVEN'T thought of making more product?


TechnoL33T

Why do you think I need you on my side? Why do you think there are sides? I know they've thought of making more product and I'm well aware of why they don't.


[deleted]

Sides is a metaphor for idea. If your going to say they didn't make more product because they would get more money you are just stupid.


TechnoL33T

Obviously I'm taking about the silicon shortage. I didn't think I had to spell that out for you, but you took that as a chance to presume.


[deleted]

Yah and they can do what about it? Nothing. The GPU companies can't anyway. I knew about the silicone shortage already and that's why they CANT make more product. That why I called you stupid.


TechnoL33T

They can get more. It's just more expensive. You jump to all the wrong conclusions.


[deleted]

You are stupid it's a shortage for a reason.


TechnoL33T

No, obviously I'm taking about the silicon shortage, idiot.


[deleted]

Shouldve fucking clarified that then. Offered no context I had to make assumptions on what you thought.


your_mind_aches

https://youtu.be/BOEYSLlQy9s


porcinechoirmaster

If you don't like the products they offer, you're welcome to make your own GPU.


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TechnoL33T

Who are you to decide my history and purpose for me? Oh right, just some dickweed who can't tell one person from another. There's no "only start bitching when" about jack shit you've ever seen in your life. You don't have the attention span to monitor more than your own. I'm a right to repair advocate and in general, have always been 100% against corporate entities flexing literally any kind of control over what others can do with their lives.


Darksider123

Can't these be bypassed?


SomeRandomPlant

Shittiest thing people do to each other...


MiscalculatedGaming

Dumb question maybe, but I know next to nothing about mining or the limiter. Does this have an impact on the cards ability to play games? I think the idea of hampering the cards performance for mining or gaming is stupid.