I get pissed out of my mind when clients or agencies marginally underpay me (I lost what little patience I had for people who don't pay on time or the agreed rate, a long time ago).
Can't imagine how apoplectic I'd go if someone fucked me and my staff out of what is likely to be millions.
I used to have a guy that would pay invoices the next day that I sent them, but he would give himself a 10% discount everytime. He thought he was so clever because he knew it was too much of a pain for me to re-invoice for the missing 10%.
I would just add 30% on to every invoice and let him think he had the win.
Mankind in a nutshell. I've been unemployed for literal ages and everytime I tried working, I was underpaid or not paid at all - and here's te broo still wondering why I don't wanna work anymore. (main reason being a crapton of health $#!+ going on, though).
Rule #1: If Man can fuck you, he most certainly will.
BTW I wanted to buy through HB store as well, but had to postpone for obvious reasons, I literally had to save up. When I was able to, they just had closed the preorder there and I had to get it via ED instead, without the goodies... life actually sucks.
Oh, it isn’t lol.
It’s been nonstop whining about PMDG, and now it’s moved back over to FSS now that the 777 is about to come out.
Not to mention how some of the devs carry themselves….between fslabs malware and pmdg SIGN YOUR FULL NAME nonsense, it really isn’t any better than the DCS community as a whole
> Not to mention how some of the devs carry themselves….between fslabs malware and pmdg SIGN YOUR FULL NAME nonsense, it really isn’t any better than the DCS community as a whole
The addon community is massive, with some fantastic developers among them. So digging up those two examples as a negative against MSFS seems a bit disingenous when one of them, FSLabs, isn't even IN the MSFS sphere, they haven't even announced an MSFS product.
FSLabs has already announced they are actively working to bring their Concorde over, having teased a couple of screenshots of running in the sim.
That said, even if my developer examples are bad, my point still stands that the MSFS community will not offer much respite from the toxicity found in DCS. Have to remember this is the same community that has done nothing but complain about PMDG the last few months (suddenly everyone loves them again now that the 777 is finally releasing) and these same people also kept sending death threats to the fenix team over block 2 delays.
Game communities basically all suck, sadly.
The addon community is massive, with some fantastic developers among them.
See what did there lol. The EXACT SAME THING can be said about the DCS community. Although I'm referring specifically to community mods, addon is a bit general as to if your referring to paid for or free add-ons. But most module makers are pretty good too.
Personally my problem with Msfs is bugs and lack of core game content, oh wait that is my exact problem with DCS! What a coincidence.
We regret the disclosure of a confidential and private communication, relating to a different situation and set of circumstances, that has been applied to a separate dispute between two parties, about whom we **remain steadfast in our support for a mutually beneficial resolution that is positive for DCS, ED, and our fellow third-party developers.**
We hope for a rising tide that raises all boats. We cannot emphasize this enough- nothing would make us happier.
Thank you for staying classy even when it seems you have every reason not to be. It's not right that private communications were leaked, but as a consumer I'm happy to know this context. Thank you guys so much for thinking of us through all the hardships and continuing to make the best modules in the game hands down. I'm glad I bought the phantom through your store and I will continue to do so. I can't say it enough, thank you.
No one is trying to drag HB down, nor is anyone reasonably expecting HB to comment beyond a neutral statement. The fact stands this is directly relevant to the current situation.
The “changing excuses” line speaks volumes. Former RAZBAM dev statements have indicated an initial 6 months of withheld payment over vague excuses and avoidance, before a sudden change to the “contractual breach” narrative.
A picture is forming, backed by precedence, and it's stacked against ED. The "contractual breach" over a non-existent aircraft, within an entirely different platform, is a last-ditch attempt to legitimize continued non-payment. Why it has reached this point and why ED felt a need to pursue such options is anyone's best guess.
You misunderstood. HB isn't being dragged "Down". They are being dragged "in" to the ED/RB fight, RB already namedropped HB before and HB refused to comment. This post right here confirms what RB said earlier, but at the same time I think it's disrespectful NOT to honor HB's official decision to stay quiet about all this matter. I believe that's what Cobra is trying to say.
> No one is trying to drag HB down, nor is anyone reasonably expecting HB to comment beyond a neutral statement.
Reality and the business world doesn't work that way. Dragging Heatblur into this absolutely has the potential to damage them and their relationship with Eagle Dynamics in ways that are hard to fix.
Its an absolute shame that Razbam and this community can't seem to leave Heatblur out of this. For a community that supposedly loves Heatblur, it's exceptionally inconsiderate and frankly shows that this community is willing to drag anyone down, regardless of the cost, if it fits the preferred narrative of the moment.
This. So much this. And for what? Because of drama, boredom and the entertainment value of seeing the world burn. The destructive nature of humanity shines in Hoggit recently. Quite the disappointment.
My humble guess is that some other "entity" is responsible for all of this...
Российская Федерация entered the chat.
And they probably want to know my location now.
It's really fun that even in this context you keep bashing RB and don't ask any questions about ED, who seems to be casually withholding payments to their 3rd parties willy-nilly. It really is bootlicking at this point.
RB was not right to drop HB's name without their explicit approval But now that we know it was true that HB was scummed by ED, keeping focusing on bashing RB is just strange.
Cuz it's a dick move even if they're right. HB clearly stated they want to be left out of it. That doesn't mean they aren't affected by ED's bullshit, it just means that's not how they want to solve the problem.
I just posted a lengthy post about this subject in a way... **HEATBLUR NEVER CLAIMED RAZBAM INTERJECTED THEIR NAME WITHOUT THEIR AUTHORIZATION**....I would be shocked if HB did not agree with only the highest management of HB viewing or perhaps even providing Razbam with what to interject...Razbam could have been sued for interjecting Heatblur's name aka liable or slander (depends on jurisdictions but if we're in America Razbam would have faced legal percussions UNLESS there was a prior written agreement...**.HEATBLUR** ALSO **NEVER DENOUNCED A SINGLE CLAIM THAT RAZBAM MADE...NOT ONE.**.. THIS IS NOT HB BEING PROFESSIONAL THIS IS HB BEING LEGALLY SMART/PRUDENT.... MY POINT IN A HANDFUL OF POSTS HAS BEEN THE FOLLOWING: **FOCUS ON WHAT IS NOT SAID VS WHAT IS SAID...**
I might not have faith in ED, but I have faith in you and your team as you deliver a consistent, high quality product. If for whatever reason Heatblur decides to go solo or move to another platform, I think you'll have many loyal customers follow.
So is the f-15 and f-4 going to be supported? I don’t have either right now, but used to play a flight sim with an f4 phantom in it and loved the plane.
How is the dcs Cold War experience? People said not to bother with the ww2 part of the game.
Really sorry people seem so hellbent on dragging you into this. Have gotten unbelievable value from your products and I hope a few bad apples trying their damndest to stir the shit, don’t keep you from remembering the vast majority of us are content and eagerly await your next product and collaboration with ED. If anything you stand as a shining example that we can have hope razbam works it out.
That being said, I am damn curious how such a personal business related email made it into the hands of such a prolific narcissistic shit stirrer. Hope that doesn’t cause any issues at Heatblur as five years is an eternity ago.
I’m pissed, and HB should be too. This is very private, out of context business talk that, as we can see, has been resolved ages ago.
Bonzo even warned someone not to post this here, yet someone did anyway. Regardless of what happened, HB doesn’t deserve bonzo and his crew to drag them down all for the spicy razbam drama.
It was bound to happen eventually, I mean razbam did name drop them. but either way that situation is relevant to this one. I don’t even think the drama stops here either something else will pop up in a week.
Easy solution for ED, solve the fucking problem already. They have enough money to fund Nick's fleet of aircraft, they have money to pay razbam WHILE their lawyers jack each other off in this process that is incredibly slow, for no real good reason other than "legality" sake.
If it’s progressed to lawyers it’s quite possible RB don’t want to settle this without going to trial, given ED has prior form and likely settled the previous HB episode without a judgement.
It's pretty obvious that HB went through a similar episode with ED, but kept it quiet until the lawyers hammered out a settlement. Those agreements usually come with clauses about not airing the issue in public. However, stuff gets out in private circles, so it was known among developers.
From HB's perspective, they're taking the professional stance of keeping their heads down unless subpoenas start flying.
This looks so bad for ED that they’ve had these squabbles with both of their leading third party devs. Shameful really. Also, are both their names nick? That confused me lol.
When I just stumbled across this, I immediately remembered having heard of something like this like 3-4 years ago, so it actually seems halfway valid to me at least.
I don't know if any of it leaked at the time, but there have been unsubstantiated claims of this exact thing since this whole thing has blown up in public a few months ago. I just kind of figured it was true.
Unless we get a full legal proceedings release, the reality is that we'll never know.
Anyone claiming otherwise is about as full of shit as my septic tank.
It's been something that's kinda been _known_ by people in the community that have been sticking to this drama, but there hasn't been an outright reveal of an email related to it.
Sadly, I think that is real story here and everyone is too caught up in whose side they are on to notice we are actually the ones getting bent over without the lube, well I mean those that actually bought the Chinook/map.
Taking things at face value, it does look like this happened before, both times the 3rd party 'stood up' for themselves albeit using different tactics and then ED yeeted out a very undercooked module to pay for the F-15.
Unfortunately, the Chinook doesn't have the same star power as the viper so you also get a map to go along with it.
Maybe they should have another one of their developers smuggle U.S. fighter manuals back to Russia.
Edit: No idea why link markup isn't working right: [https://www.rferl.org/a/u-s-deports-russian-convicted-of-smuggling-f-16-manuals/30009039.html](https://www.rferl.org/a/u-s-deports-russian-convicted-of-smuggling-f-16-manuals/30009039.html)
They’re not broke if they’re handing out multimillion dollar interest free loans to the Fighter Collection. And if they’ve chosen to do that over pay their 3rd party devs well…
People who go through the effort of trying to defend ED here are honestly pathetic. Then again. In some way, they are holding onto a very slim dream that ED is an authentic developer who looks out for fans...lol
>they are holding onto a very slim dream that ED is an authentic developer who looks out for fans...lol
I desperately want it to be true, but it is so very obvious that it isn't.
All hope is for a miracle to happen over at ED HQ and we get actual people who can balance business and customer satisfaction. What is clear now is that ED does not care about us and what we lose. They are in a comfortable position where no competition can wedge them from their crown place as the "best combat sim".
Hope can be restored *if* a competitor takes the field with everything that DCS offers AND more. A mission editor, a dynamic campaign, functional AI, Multiplayer, Multi crew, era focus, and more.
Alas, until that time, we are stuck with CH-47s without lights , NVGs.,Vietnam era machine guns,half a map, no functional dynamic campaign, terrible customer service, bugs, buy a module with a 50/50 that it MIGHT lose support, etc.
Nor platform looks good but it's not open to the public. I would love it if bohemia decided to mix some middle of the road fidelity in vehicles with their infantry combat and new engine.
A business is about money. The difference is how greedy that business is and how far it will go.
Sadly ED's modus operandi is releasing unfinished modules as often as possible to get money and then dropping them with no updates for years for some.
So DCS is not even a combat airplane museum at this point, just a collection of very expensive snacks in place of the full dish.
You are absolutely correct. It's all about how you manage your business to make it profitable and customer friendly. ED has absolutely 0 skill in that area. Mods who are way too obsessed with the ability to ban people, minimum effort in communication, and most importantly 0 effort to remedy any of these issues.
As I mentioned in my other comment. ED needs a radical change in its command structure. Which seems to focus on business output only.
We need a competitor to give ED the push it must make to create better development incentives.
A business is about money. The difference is how greedy that business is and how far it will go.
Sadly ED's modus operandi is releasing unfinished modules as often as possible to get money and then dropping them with no updates for years for some.
So DCS is not even a combat airplane museum at this point, just a collection of very expensive snacks in place of the full dish.
You may want to reconsider calling people pathetic over having disagreements over a simulation game. We're not talking about geopolitics or something. You can have firm opinions while being a polite person.
I was waiting to see how the Anti-ED crowd was going to take this and run away with it, and use it to justify any of the speculation for which we have no facts for.
The reality is that ED and HB had a dispute, *and they handled it through the correct, private, legal means*, and they had an amicable resolution in which HB still is happy to make modules for DCS and has straight out said that they will continue to do so for as long as they can.
Because as it turns out, when you do things the *right* way and keep it between lawyers and NDA's instead of blasting half-assed messages on twitter and facebook to try and weaponize the community, it's a bad call and a bad look.
Yes it's perfectly fair to handle it privately if it's only a one time thing, but ED actively abused the privacy to do it to others unhindered as well. The only way for it to stop is if it goes public
"ED has actively abused the privacy to do it unhindered". What proof do you have? Who else have they done it to? I'm not here to defend ED as a company, but let's be real, you have AvioDev, Magnitude3/Leatherneck, Aerges, Aviron, Check Six, Crosstail, Deka, FlyingIron, Grinneli, Heatblur, IndiaFoxtEcho, MilTech5, OctopusG, OnReTech, OrbX, Polychop, Red Star, Ugra... who have all been developing modules for DCS without issues (and there's some I've missed here, too). So how exactly does going public on one issue, with *one* dev out of many, where the facts aren't actually available, prove *anything*? PLEASE justify it to me.
HB was ultimately ok with not being paid for _a year and a half_.
That doesn't mean it is ok or that everyone needs to be ok with it. How would you react if your employer didn't pay you for a year and a half?
I'm pretty sure HB was not okay with not being paid, hence why their issue with ED was handled by *lawyers* and not by an attempt at public vilification.
Obviously nobody likes not getting paid, that's a stupid argument to make because it has no bearing on the fact that the entire """"discussion"""" within the community at the moment revolves around statements which we don't even know are fully informed, nor do we have any more factual information showing any form of guilt, *and yet* the community (as seen in this thread) are so hungry for ED's head that they can't sit back, take a breath and look at it objectively.
*Edit: The downvotes only prove I'm correct
I haven't been around that long, but I've been within the DCS (FC3 original) and BMS community for at least 15 years, and yeah, I know how it goes sadly. It's literally a community of Karens.
People just want to know what's going on because they're heavily invested, I'm sure there are some people just here to watch the drama but the majority of people are concerned that the game they love and have spend hundreds on is going up in smoke.
>I'm pretty sure HB was not okay with not being paid, hence why their issue with ED was handled by lawyers and not by an attempt at public vilification.
Notice the use of my word "ultimately," which means, "in the end." Obviously they were ultimately okay with it which is why they're still here.
>nor do we have any more factual information showing any form of guilt
Can you stop lying please? We have a whole bunch information that show a pretty clear picture. What kind of "factual information" would you need until you believe that something is up? A physical letter with an admission of guilt signed by Nick Gray with sealed with ED's wax seal delivered to your door personally?
We have a *lot* of *hearsay*. We have a *lot* of *claims* from people who have clear biases both on the Razbam *and* the ED side. We have a *lot* of random bullshit claims from others in the community who *claim* to say they know better than the other random people on the internet, without *any* form of proof or justification.
A few quotes from Razbam or ED *does not* provide actual justification or fault on one party or the other.
For some reason people on Reddit have some fucked up reasoning that whatever they find on reddit or discord is automatically fact, and legally the "correct" reason for things that will prove their point.
So *yes*, the *only* thing that would indeed prove an admission of who was at fault would be a *legal resolution* which has been published publicly. If you can't accept that, you're just a typical internet Karen who thinks that public vilification from twitter is the reality of the world, and I'm sorry to say, that's *not* the reality of how things work.
>without *any* form of proof or justification.
We have several statements from the parties involved. Why do you keep repeating "without ANY proof or justification"? Their statements alone are proof and justification for *something*, even if it's not clear what exactly. Why claim that there is no basis for anything if there clearly is?
>A few quotes from Razbam or ED *does not* provide actual justification or fault on one party or the other.
You are right. Luckily I'm not a judge, I'm just a guy who has eyes and can put 2 and 2 together.
>For some reason people on Reddit have some fucked up reasoning that whatever they find on reddit or discord is automatically fact, and legally the "correct" reason for things that will prove their point.
This is again, a lie. Most people don't believe everything is a fact, but there will always be speculation. The more information is out there, the more accurate the speculation will become.
>So *yes*, the *only* thing that would indeed prove an admission of who was at fault would be a *legal resolution* which has been published publicly.
Are you saying I am not allowed to form an opinion based on the information that is available to me? Are you saying I am not allowed to communicate that opinion to other people? Am I only ever allowed to believe and use information if it is absolutely 100% legally confirmed?
I'm sorry, but that is not how the world works. Information will almost always be incomplete, so if you stick to only 100% legally confirmed facts, then you will fail to understand a lot of the things that happen around you.
For example, you will be the perfect target for corporate bullshit, because they tend to control the information very tightly. So if you ignore circumstantial evidence and "hearsay", then they can just fuck you over as long as they want, they just don't have to be a bit careful with their public messaging.
>If you can't accept that, you're just a typical internet Karen who thinks that public vilification from twitter is the reality of the world, and I'm sorry to say, that's *not* the reality of how things work.
Why is it so hard for you to understand this simple fact:
I am not a judge. I'm not even a lawyer. I'm not obliged to stick to 100% legally confirmed facts.
If I get pretty fucking clear statements from 2 module developers that they weren't paid in time by ED, then I would be a huge idiot to dismiss that information because it's "hearsay".
And again, so maybe you finally understand it: I know I'm not a judge. I know this info is not legally binding. I know I'm missing information. I know I don't know the full picture. But still: I can not ignore the information available to me, because I'm not an idiot.
Take a breath and step away from the keyboard for minute. Because you need it.
I have money invested in this simulator too, from both Razbam, Aveodev and eagle dynamics.
But i care how they use my money and it is not looking good for ED.
You say that you dont trust anything on Discord or Reddit, so why are you here?
I dont care if this was handled i a legally right way. But the evidence says that ED did not payed Either razbam or HB.
If the evidence is not true, Nobody would be talking about this here.
But we do, without any bans. How is that? Because ive heard that this subreddit is quite hard when it comes to that.
Have you thought about that?
So everyone is not sure what to believe.
I believe that a dude called Mr. Grey takes money from Development for the mentainance of his old barrels with wings on. You heard that right? And Thats not what im paying for with my own money to have him using them for his old ww2 planes.
And dont say its not real evidence, you can check it on open websites that is legit.
You have your opinion, we have ours.
My takeaway is HB are cool dudes who think with their heads, and ED...obviously I have no idea what was going on, but I cannot think of *any* good reason not to give people their money for a year.
The one mitigating factor on ED's behalf is that HB were clearly happy to continue developing for DCS - their reasons for trusting this wouldn't happen again must be solid, or they wouldn't do it.
I think HB just doesn't have any choice but to stick with ED. There is no other *combat* sim to develop modules for. ED seems to be in a position similar to Boeing's. In that it can dictate terms to their subcontractors, these have no one to go to if they decide they have had enough of ED's bullshit.
>and use it to justify any of the speculation for which we have no facts for.
That's not exactly true. Just because we don't own the hard drives where those emails are stored, doesn't mean we have "no facts". We have a bunch of circumstantial evidence that paints a grim picture. Plausible deniability might work for the courts, but I'm not dumb. I can put two and two together.
>The reality is that ED and HB had a dispute, *and they handled it through the correct, private, legal means*, and they had an amicable resolution in which HB still is happy to make modules for DCS and has straight out said that they will continue to do so for as long as they can.
The other reality is that having to use "legal means" to get paid is evidence of EDs horrible attitude towards their partners.
that they regret their stuff being leaked? What justification are you going with? ED didn’t pay them and they can’t and won’t talk about it. It’s also a thing in the past so why would they? He also commented on the post earlier but he took it down.
If I were HB, I would have already taken a hard look at the contracts and would have pushed in clear safeguards before making the F4.
But yeah this does look garbage on ED, and while its true that this is not fully comparable to the RB situation, it is at least partial evidence that EDs not paying RB may not be purely because of legal disputes and that ED may have garbage/irresponsible financial management.
The CEO using ED as a bank account is pretty irresponsible id say. Its never good when people use company assets for private endeavours. 2 Million a year to The Fighter Collection iirc.
I couldnt care less if Nick Grey has a fighter’s collection or succubus collection as long as he doesn’t use ED to support his other financially unviable projects.
it really explains a lot on ED. Why they keep publishing unfinished modules, why the core gets ignored so long, why it takes so long to develop anything, etc.
They are still here. They went through the "it could be fake" narrative and now they are in the "look, they found a solution in the end and now HB is ok with ED. It's not a big deal".
Hey, we need people to buy halfganistan! Then maybe razbam will be paid.
ED business cycle is obviously 3rd party release -> don’t pay 3rd party -> release half done EA products to pay 3rd party when they inevitably complain
Hoggit still struggling to understand the concept of early access..
Released? Check features, state, reviews. If exceeding your criteria: buy it. Else: repeat after next update.
( let the downvotes cast a shadow upon this comment )
Here's my 2 cents on this. If HB has been burned before in this kind of thing, and RB is going through it right now. Why on Earth would HB release the F-4 during all of it? Yeah there's the HB store which accounts for a lot of sales, but I seriously doubt HB just decided to drop the F-4 under the risk of not seeing any of the money from the DCS store. Same goes for Kola and the OH-58 to a lesser extent, even if it wasn't public through most of their development cycle, I'm sure word spreads between devs. RB has tried to drag HB into this several times over their experience with this problem. So what made them confident enough that they would be paid, that they were willing to release those modules?
Why wouldn't they release the module they have been working for 3-5 years ? Invested a mountain of money, time and passion for ?
If anything they're in the perfect position atm. Drop it, make the money, maintain it, then fuck off to greener pastures.
Not releasing it could have sank their company. HB isn't as huge as most thiknk.
This email is 5 years old. I think the post you're replying to is asking: why did they develop the F4 at all if they went through this 5 years ago with the F14? They knew this issue had occurred essentially before they could have begun that 3-5 year process you posited. So it would be interesting to hear how the F14 issue resolved and what assurances they were given that they weren't sinking years of work into the F4 to not get paid again.
Because the people who post this/react to this just want to use it to vilify ED without it having any bearing to the current situation, and are completely ignoring the fact that ED and HB handled this privately through legal means *the right way* and came out with an amicable solution where HB continues to develop and wants to develop more modules.
Here's how that works in the world of subcontractors and all that shit:
You're a big company, you string someone small on large money. You string them so long they become desperate. You offer them a smaller portion of money you owe them. They agree cause the alternative is not seeing any money.
Listen, I literally live in the world of Prime and Sub Contractors. You want to try to bullshit some reasoning about this situation? Let's go.
The reality is we don't know the legal clauses and agreements between ED/TFC and Razbam, and then the legal agreements between Razbam and the Equadorian Air Force (who is supposedly the group which they sold/traded/whatever the SDK to). We *do not know* how the breakdown of contractors is handled; especially since you can have multiple successive layers of contractors (for example, the Prime Contractor who then subcontracts various parts of production of a software or a manufacturing capability). We don't know if Razbam signed an agreement to be the Prime Contractor to the Equadorian Air Force, and that was what kicked off the disagreement between ED and RB (which is what ED claims, but again, is unsubstantiated), or if ED is the Prime Contractor by legal agreement of licensing in the SDK to all Sub Contractors (Third Party Devs) and Razbam misinterpreted the license agreement to mean that they could use it as desired (as seems to be the interpretation from Rob from RB) to sell/trade/send to other enterprises.
*Maybe* ED is the Prime Contractor, or maybe Razbam is the Prime contractor. *We do not know, because we are not privy to the legal contracts and agreements between these companies and the End User.*
Any claims otherwise are *complete and utter bullshit speculation with no basis in fact or reality*.
If you make any claims via the random assortment of likely biased (*from both sides*) statements then you're just a fool.
The degree of reductionism that has surrounded this situation since the news broke has been driving me insane. Everyone wants this to be a "fuck you, pay the man" situation so desperately but even asking people to consider that this *might* be a more complicated thing than that gets you labeled as an ED shill.
*The right way* would have been ED paying what they owed on time in the first place and not make up excuses to delay until the law steps in (or however they resolved it in the end).
And not every company can afford to run years without payment until lawyers sort it out - even ED themselves said they need EA releases to keep going and Heatblur had their own store to have at least some income from the F-14.
So I'm not convinced RB even had the option to keep working on those modules and wait for a resolution. Sure the could have kept quiet regardless but some explanation would have been necessary once they stopped development and then I prefer them to be open about it.
Also not sure it would qualify as "vilifying" when people post the (apparent) truth that this is the second time ED hasn't paid a 3rd party for an extended time - it does make it harder for those trying to purely blame RB though.
*The right way* is determined by the contractual obligations between the companies; in this case ED and RB. *We as the End User, as random people on the internet, with incomplete and biased information from both sides, do not know what the reality of the situation is.* And as I have *continually* argued in this thread to incessant downvotes, that *nobody here knows what the situation is*. We *cannot* make determinations of fault, no matter our opinions.
But that's apparently too much for the internet Karens here on Hoggit to accept, that they're literally an outside inconsequential bystander, no matter how much they scream into the void for the virtual manager.
And realistically, welcome to Capitalism. If you run a business and you don't have the overhead to support the business through legal issues, you're going to fail. Nobody cries when the town bakeries died during Covid or when the new bar died over the winter months; but suddenly ya'll think it's an injustice if Razbam dies? Sorry to say, that's just reality. It's shit, but that's what happens when you don't financially plan well; Heatblur did, Razbam didn't, and we can see what happened.
I don't think anyone here can say what is "Apparent" truth or fiction, since we don't know what is actually completely factual, unbiased information and what isn't. Do you know what the original reason behind ED not paying HB was? Does *anyone* here know what it was and can say, with complete backed by proof information, that the situation between Heatblur and ED had even a remotely similar root cause as the current Razbam - ED situation? *I guarantee nobody here has that information*.
And quite literally *yes*, all we have now is mass *vilification* of ED without *fact* that it's their fault (to be clear, it is entirely possible it could be their fault, I'm just stating nobody knows and jumping up either side's ass is pointless bullshit at best). I would like to remind you (and others) that this isn't the *first*, not even the *second* time that Razbam has tried to weaponize the community against something that Rob/Razbam had issues with (and in both cases, were proven to be the one at fault, rather than those accused), so it's very much worth taking anything they say with a healthy bit of skepticism.
Funny how people are willing to judge what one side did based on what the public knows but when other people then dare to critique the other side it's "we don't have enough information" all of a sudden.
>without it having any bearing to the current situation
Why do people keep repeating this nonsense? What do you mean "any bearing", we have a lot of communication from ED and from RB, now from HB. This paints a pretty clear picture, unless you deliberately choose to ignore anything that goes against your narrative.
We have statements that are given by people who have obvious biases and who also have admitted that they don't have the entire breadth of information. We can make wild guesses and suppositions from these statements, but not a one of them gives facts. Only *hearsay*.
What I have been arguing is that we *as a community* with the information currently available to the *actual* Razbam-Eagle Dynamics (or more accurately, Razbam-The Fighter Collection) situation, that is actual *indisputable evidence* which is not just hearsay or claims by either side, is what we need to use to judge the situation.
So far as we've seen is a *lot* of biased statements from one side, and a very legal-sounding statement from the other; meaning *nothing* that has been posted has been in any way reasonable to the current situation.
""""""""""""""""" My narrative """"""""""""""""" (*and I put that in massively heavy quotes*) is that nobody here knows jack shit besides random one-off quotes that they choose to put together like crazy conspiracy theorists with no actual basis in fact.
>We have statements that are given by people who have obvious biases and who also have admitted that they don't have the entire breadth of information. We can make wild guesses and suppositions from these statements, but not a one of them gives facts. Only *hearsay*.
Sometimes hearsay is all you're going to get. You can, however, puzzle together some parts of the story by looking at who said what and what was and wasn't denied. For example, HB just wants everyone to be friends and they're sad that their communication was published. If you read between the lines just a little, this basically confirms that the communication was real. So the HB situation 2019 lines up really close to the RB situation 2024.
That's just too much of a coincidence, given the similarity of the situation (3rd party module maker dealing with ED when releasing a new module).
>What I have been arguing is that we *as a community* with the information currently available to the *actual* Razbam-Eagle Dynamics (or more accurately, Razbam-The Fighter Collection) situation, that is actual *indisputable evidence* which is not just hearsay or claims by either side, is what we need to use to judge the situation.
You're not going to get "indisputable evidence" most of the time. Not just on reddit/social media, but in the real world. In the real world, you have to work on a limited set of information and make half-informed decisions all the time. Of course it would be better to know everything and make perfect decisions, but that's not how it usually works. When that happens, you can do one of two things: just believe your favorite authority and if any doubts or inconcistencies come up, you brush them aside because they're not "indisputable evidence". OR you turn on your brain, look at the available limited information, and try to make sense of it as best as you can, keeping in mind that your favorite authority might not be truthful and might be hiding information from you.
>""""""""""""""""" My narrative """"""""""""""""" (*and I put that in massively heavy quotes*) is that nobody here knows jack shit besides random one-off quotes that they choose to put together like crazy conspiracy theorists with no actual basis in fact.
Stop saying "no actual basis in fact". It's a lie. It's a fact that HB said what they said. It's a fact that RB said what they said. It's a fact that ED said what they said. You're right that the *content* of what they said can't be considered a fact, but you can still look at what was said and deduce some things with logic.
And BTW you're not neutral at all if you claim that it's all just speculation. Your conclusion directly benefits ED, because if everything is just speculation, there's no reason not to buy RB modules and send money into ED's pockets.
You might not care because you already bought it, but I find morally bankrupt not to warn new players that there is *something* fucky going on and they should hold out on buying RB modules for the time being. Even if there is no "indisputable evidence" for it, there is still a serious amount of circumstantial evidence that warrants being careful and suspicious.
This looks weird and sketchy as heck not knowing any details.
But HB has multiple continuing DCS projects lined up, some of which are still early. More than one of which they started well after this situation.
So obviously the relationship is now satisfactory to HB for their foreseeable future with some degree of confidence, whatever changed or what issues or misunderstandings were resolved.
HB isn’t about to “eff off”. They would have long ago if it was truly still in doubt like you speculate.
> Why wouldn't they release the module
> Drop it, make the money, maintain it
This what I'm saying, if ED wasn't paying them the store's share, then they aren't making the money, they can't maintain it and I question why they would release it.
ED did pay them in the end. Not long after the F-16C released.
I do agree it's interresting to know why they took the risk to make another module knowing this. But it must have been a calculated risk as they took care to diversify (MSFS and NOR actrivities) and making sure to point as much customers as possible to their own store.
I hear DCS makes very, very good money for the industry. Much more than any other sim, including MSFS.
ED must have offered a plausible explanation for payment delays and appropriate assurances (maybe incentives?) that made them comfortable enough to proceed with the F4. I really hope they did get paid fairly for the f4.
This confirmation of a pattern of inability or refusal to honor contracts and pay their third party developers honestly makes me worried for the future of DCS. There really is no viable competitor so if ED goes down that’s pretty much it for now, BMS notwithstanding
HB have been through this before, and it’s pretty likely the result of that was an agreement for them to sell through their own store and on top of that a renegotiation of how they are paid to avoid this in future. This appears to be a unique agreement as other 3rd party devs do not have their own stores.
Heatblur has their own store which provides them a source of income. Kola is on offer in the Orbyx store afaik. That provides a stream of money that is separate from ED.
Because the only reason their business has a chance of staying alive for now is to keep DCS from being a walking corpse. I guess the last thing anyone wants is ED going out of business and DCS dying.
Because there's no alternative to DCS as a platform right now. BMS is out of the question (BMS devs have stated this multiple times) and everything else is not only years away, but has to deal with decades of headstart.
With the Chinook and Halfghanistan being yeeted out the door. I wouldn't be surprised if you see Wags on Cameo selling $50 Q&A videos that they seemingly only break out now if they need a distraction.
Yep I paid direct ...just because of this potential reason and with all the dirty laundry and finding out now that heatblur had endured the same 💩💩💩 just validates this position. I'll not be buying another module unless there is a direct purchase option.
Summary so far, Razbam and HB provided evidence of unfair and illegal behavior from ED (nobody says these proves anything without any doubt, but they still remains evidences whether you like or not). ED so far provided no evidence at all that counter the two evidences. Yet there are worshipers that get pissed off since so far it is much more believable that ED is in fault rather than the contrary. ED a very greedy company, who care about sorely money and cash grab so that the owner can have fun with its personal goal with money (loans) that come directly from the company while at the same time ED has the audacity to keep saying we are a small team with small budged hence why DCS is still shitty....10 million dollars loan....there are full games that are made with 10 million dollars in less time and less buggy. Yet we are here with people denying what is under their nose ...... WORSHIPERS
Hoggit, Floggit, and DCS_Exposed have become r/Doomit
I’ve been keeping away from the drama and every time I come back to see what’s up/what’s passed, and it’s just the internet stirring up more shit and prying into things they have no business prying into every time.
Talk about rubbing salt in the wound.
Not another cent should go to ED or razbam until both solve their problem. Teach them both.
As for HB, does buying off the website allow you to still play in game?
it is and it isn't. People have put a lot of time and money into something they love, but on the other hand they've got zero other options and the only product that serves their needs at all is, and let's be frank here - dog shit. Yes, the planes are well modelled, yes the graphics are nice - but the actual product overall is really poor. People have been saying it for literally years at this point, but the actual core game is really really poor - you're basically just shooting fish in a barrel with awful AI, bugs that are continuous, theres' a totally bluefor lop-sided array of random planes available in a hodge-podge mismash of theatres, and so on. The reddit for the product should not be more interesting than the actual product. I think everyone does want it to not suck, but there's basically those that accept that it does actually kinda suck to play, and those that can't see past the graphics and clickable cockpits.
That's leaving aside the view of those who think the product is ok-ish but that the company that made it are incompetent at community management and frequently borderline immoral, which is a whole other can of worms.
I think everyone should take a little time to read through OPs Reddit post history.
This is a person with a longstanding deep dislike for ED. Multiple occasions calling on others to “review bomb” ED. Years of nothing positive to say about the sim, only non stop complaining. Years of non stop Razbam praise to the point it is not hard to imagine they could be somehow affiliated. Claims to no inside information that they cannot say publicly.
I’m not calling for a witch hunt or anything, just for everyone to realize that it’s not always just about “getting to the bottom of this” but sometime deep seated long history.
This OP has it out for ED and is directly trying to cause the Reddit community to turn on them.
I highly doubt ED is blameless in all of this, but this poster seems almost like they are at the point of not even wanting the sim to exist any longer and doing anything and everything they can to harm ED publicly.
I wonder who’s alt this is, or what third party they are affiliated with to claim to have so much insider knowledge over the years?
They are pretending to just be a “concerned citizen” but upon a deeper look come of much more like a combatant.
Interesting stuff
> I think everyone should take a little time to read through OPs Reddit post history.
Actually, what I did is take a little time to read through *your* post history and I see that you've commented *twentyfour times* so far in this post. It would seem that you have just as much of an axe to grind.
Interesting stuff indeed.
This topic is obviously being brigaded from somewhere. Apparently this has to do with that guy bonzo again? Shocking. They guy who literally profits from drama surrounding dcs is trying to create more drama
Glad I fucking paid for the F4 through Heatblurs store.
Same. I understand why they pushed for their store so hard now.
I get pissed out of my mind when clients or agencies marginally underpay me (I lost what little patience I had for people who don't pay on time or the agreed rate, a long time ago). Can't imagine how apoplectic I'd go if someone fucked me and my staff out of what is likely to be millions.
I used to have a guy that would pay invoices the next day that I sent them, but he would give himself a 10% discount everytime. He thought he was so clever because he knew it was too much of a pain for me to re-invoice for the missing 10%. I would just add 30% on to every invoice and let him think he had the win.
Mankind in a nutshell. I've been unemployed for literal ages and everytime I tried working, I was underpaid or not paid at all - and here's te broo still wondering why I don't wanna work anymore. (main reason being a crapton of health $#!+ going on, though). Rule #1: If Man can fuck you, he most certainly will. BTW I wanted to buy through HB store as well, but had to postpone for obvious reasons, I literally had to save up. When I was able to, they just had closed the preorder there and I had to get it via ED instead, without the goodies... life actually sucks.
Not working But still have enough money to sim ? You sir are living the dream.
The MSFS community seems more positive and happy than the DCS community
Until you meow on a vatsim tower freq 😭
Oh, it isn’t lol. It’s been nonstop whining about PMDG, and now it’s moved back over to FSS now that the 777 is about to come out. Not to mention how some of the devs carry themselves….between fslabs malware and pmdg SIGN YOUR FULL NAME nonsense, it really isn’t any better than the DCS community as a whole
> Not to mention how some of the devs carry themselves….between fslabs malware and pmdg SIGN YOUR FULL NAME nonsense, it really isn’t any better than the DCS community as a whole The addon community is massive, with some fantastic developers among them. So digging up those two examples as a negative against MSFS seems a bit disingenous when one of them, FSLabs, isn't even IN the MSFS sphere, they haven't even announced an MSFS product.
FSLabs has already announced they are actively working to bring their Concorde over, having teased a couple of screenshots of running in the sim. That said, even if my developer examples are bad, my point still stands that the MSFS community will not offer much respite from the toxicity found in DCS. Have to remember this is the same community that has done nothing but complain about PMDG the last few months (suddenly everyone loves them again now that the 777 is finally releasing) and these same people also kept sending death threats to the fenix team over block 2 delays. Game communities basically all suck, sadly.
The addon community is massive, with some fantastic developers among them. See what did there lol. The EXACT SAME THING can be said about the DCS community. Although I'm referring specifically to community mods, addon is a bit general as to if your referring to paid for or free add-ons. But most module makers are pretty good too. Personally my problem with Msfs is bugs and lack of core game content, oh wait that is my exact problem with DCS! What a coincidence.
As a rule, yeah. But there is always a chunk that ruins things. (See pmdg issues etc). Same for any community, really.
True, though you'd be surprised at the stuff they find to be angry about... Could also be the community itself that's more chill.
Do they not shoot at each other in the MSFS community?
Same.
I'm new to DCS but you can buy heatblur stuff from a different store? Sorry I'm just asking as I've been checking out there models.
Yes, they have a store on their website.
We regret the disclosure of a confidential and private communication, relating to a different situation and set of circumstances, that has been applied to a separate dispute between two parties, about whom we **remain steadfast in our support for a mutually beneficial resolution that is positive for DCS, ED, and our fellow third-party developers.** We hope for a rising tide that raises all boats. We cannot emphasize this enough- nothing would make us happier.
Thank you for staying classy even when it seems you have every reason not to be. It's not right that private communications were leaked, but as a consumer I'm happy to know this context. Thank you guys so much for thinking of us through all the hardships and continuing to make the best modules in the game hands down. I'm glad I bought the phantom through your store and I will continue to do so. I can't say it enough, thank you.
I love my f-14! You folks do great work.
One thing is for sure. ED surely doesn't deserved your awesome talent
Should have supported your friends at Razbam when you had the chance. Would have been a much better outcome for the community and DCS as a whole.
Man it really fucking sucks that people keep trying to drag you guys into this shit desperate to stir up some more drama
No one is trying to drag HB down, nor is anyone reasonably expecting HB to comment beyond a neutral statement. The fact stands this is directly relevant to the current situation. The “changing excuses” line speaks volumes. Former RAZBAM dev statements have indicated an initial 6 months of withheld payment over vague excuses and avoidance, before a sudden change to the “contractual breach” narrative. A picture is forming, backed by precedence, and it's stacked against ED. The "contractual breach" over a non-existent aircraft, within an entirely different platform, is a last-ditch attempt to legitimize continued non-payment. Why it has reached this point and why ED felt a need to pursue such options is anyone's best guess.
You misunderstood. HB isn't being dragged "Down". They are being dragged "in" to the ED/RB fight, RB already namedropped HB before and HB refused to comment. This post right here confirms what RB said earlier, but at the same time I think it's disrespectful NOT to honor HB's official decision to stay quiet about all this matter. I believe that's what Cobra is trying to say.
You might also consider that HB cannot officially say anything on the matter and to not take at face value the announcement
Which is exactly why I believe the least thing Heatblur wants right now is to have this post be made public about their conflict.
> No one is trying to drag HB down, nor is anyone reasonably expecting HB to comment beyond a neutral statement. Reality and the business world doesn't work that way. Dragging Heatblur into this absolutely has the potential to damage them and their relationship with Eagle Dynamics in ways that are hard to fix. Its an absolute shame that Razbam and this community can't seem to leave Heatblur out of this. For a community that supposedly loves Heatblur, it's exceptionally inconsiderate and frankly shows that this community is willing to drag anyone down, regardless of the cost, if it fits the preferred narrative of the moment.
ED knew full well the email existed and like any scandal more information will become public if they choose to continue act like a bully.
This. So much this. And for what? Because of drama, boredom and the entertainment value of seeing the world burn. The destructive nature of humanity shines in Hoggit recently. Quite the disappointment.
My humble guess is that some other "entity" is responsible for all of this... Российская Федерация entered the chat. And they probably want to know my location now.
[удалено]
Sir, this is a video game.
Which is also the livelihood of several people.
It's really fun that even in this context you keep bashing RB and don't ask any questions about ED, who seems to be casually withholding payments to their 3rd parties willy-nilly. It really is bootlicking at this point. RB was not right to drop HB's name without their explicit approval But now that we know it was true that HB was scummed by ED, keeping focusing on bashing RB is just strange.
What are you on about, I haven't bashed anyone at all.
You bash RB for them trying to drag HB into this.
Cuz it's a dick move even if they're right. HB clearly stated they want to be left out of it. That doesn't mean they aren't affected by ED's bullshit, it just means that's not how they want to solve the problem.
I just posted a lengthy post about this subject in a way... **HEATBLUR NEVER CLAIMED RAZBAM INTERJECTED THEIR NAME WITHOUT THEIR AUTHORIZATION**....I would be shocked if HB did not agree with only the highest management of HB viewing or perhaps even providing Razbam with what to interject...Razbam could have been sued for interjecting Heatblur's name aka liable or slander (depends on jurisdictions but if we're in America Razbam would have faced legal percussions UNLESS there was a prior written agreement...**.HEATBLUR** ALSO **NEVER DENOUNCED A SINGLE CLAIM THAT RAZBAM MADE...NOT ONE.**.. THIS IS NOT HB BEING PROFESSIONAL THIS IS HB BEING LEGALLY SMART/PRUDENT.... MY POINT IN A HANDFUL OF POSTS HAS BEEN THE FOLLOWING: **FOCUS ON WHAT IS NOT SAID VS WHAT IS SAID...**
Your caps lock gut stuck there :)
So when are you guys taking over ED? Or maybe just starting your own platform...?
I'd love that to happen
Thank you for your professionalism. If we all follow this kind of example, all will be well.
I might not have faith in ED, but I have faith in you and your team as you deliver a consistent, high quality product. If for whatever reason Heatblur decides to go solo or move to another platform, I think you'll have many loyal customers follow.
So is the f-15 and f-4 going to be supported? I don’t have either right now, but used to play a flight sim with an f4 phantom in it and loved the plane. How is the dcs Cold War experience? People said not to bother with the ww2 part of the game.
Really sorry people seem so hellbent on dragging you into this. Have gotten unbelievable value from your products and I hope a few bad apples trying their damndest to stir the shit, don’t keep you from remembering the vast majority of us are content and eagerly await your next product and collaboration with ED. If anything you stand as a shining example that we can have hope razbam works it out. That being said, I am damn curious how such a personal business related email made it into the hands of such a prolific narcissistic shit stirrer. Hope that doesn’t cause any issues at Heatblur as five years is an eternity ago.
I’m pissed, and HB should be too. This is very private, out of context business talk that, as we can see, has been resolved ages ago. Bonzo even warned someone not to post this here, yet someone did anyway. Regardless of what happened, HB doesn’t deserve bonzo and his crew to drag them down all for the spicy razbam drama.
It was bound to happen eventually, I mean razbam did name drop them. but either way that situation is relevant to this one. I don’t even think the drama stops here either something else will pop up in a week.
Easy solution for ED, solve the fucking problem already. They have enough money to fund Nick's fleet of aircraft, they have money to pay razbam WHILE their lawyers jack each other off in this process that is incredibly slow, for no real good reason other than "legality" sake.
If it’s progressed to lawyers it’s quite possible RB don’t want to settle this without going to trial, given ED has prior form and likely settled the previous HB episode without a judgement.
Can you tell us the full context?
Guessing the “confidential and private” part of the above statement is important.
It's pretty obvious that HB went through a similar episode with ED, but kept it quiet until the lawyers hammered out a settlement. Those agreements usually come with clauses about not airing the issue in public. However, stuff gets out in private circles, so it was known among developers. From HB's perspective, they're taking the professional stance of keeping their heads down unless subpoenas start flying.
What tells you that lawyers were involved in the previous HB episode?
Yes, that makes sense. I didn't even think of it that way.
This looks so bad for ED that they’ve had these squabbles with both of their leading third party devs. Shameful really. Also, are both their names nick? That confused me lol.
Heatblur staff also all but confirmed this happened in their discord before any of the "this can be easily faked" crowd comes in
I mean the fact that Heatblur came out and did not deny it being authentic is basically a confirmation of authenticity.
When I just stumbled across this, I immediately remembered having heard of something like this like 3-4 years ago, so it actually seems halfway valid to me at least.
I don't know if any of it leaked at the time, but there have been unsubstantiated claims of this exact thing since this whole thing has blown up in public a few months ago. I just kind of figured it was true.
I am very glad that I always used HB store, so my money reached the proper hands.
wait, ED are the bad guys?
"Are we the baddies ?"
Always have been.
Unless we get a full legal proceedings release, the reality is that we'll never know. Anyone claiming otherwise is about as full of shit as my septic tank.
Right, because selling unsupported modules with no disclaimer whatsoever is what good guys do
I may be mistaken, but I swear everyone already knew about this, or am I just imagining things
It's proof of what was an unconfirmed rumor.
It's been something that's kinda been _known_ by people in the community that have been sticking to this drama, but there hasn't been an outright reveal of an email related to it.
First time I hear about it ! Sorry if repost. Wish I would've known sooner ...
First time I'm hearing of it. Thank you for posting so some of us newer members of the community can get informed.
You are the first to post proof but it was already rumored.
No it’s fine I think it’s actually quite relevant to bring up considering the situation, or I might just be imaging things and talking quack 😭
Thanks for your passionfruit.
aka "fake maracuja" XD
Thank you for your passion and support! (Releases a broken module to pay devs)
Sadly, I think that is real story here and everyone is too caught up in whose side they are on to notice we are actually the ones getting bent over without the lube, well I mean those that actually bought the Chinook/map. Taking things at face value, it does look like this happened before, both times the 3rd party 'stood up' for themselves albeit using different tactics and then ED yeeted out a very undercooked module to pay for the F-15. Unfortunately, the Chinook doesn't have the same star power as the viper so you also get a map to go along with it.
Bet the reason they announced the mig 29 was to cover this and bet they are rushing it out and bet we will see it this year for that very reason.
Over/under on how long it takes for RB to get paid and the Chinook and halfghanistan get released?
Hypothetically speaking, if Benchmark, Microprose and The Third party jet devs were locked in a room together…
... I think something could be arranged.
We have heard of people saying "ED is not broke" apparently they are broke enough to not pay developers. The real question is: Who is next?
So is the logic that they have been broke for the last five years?
Maybe they should have another one of their developers smuggle U.S. fighter manuals back to Russia. Edit: No idea why link markup isn't working right: [https://www.rferl.org/a/u-s-deports-russian-convicted-of-smuggling-f-16-manuals/30009039.html](https://www.rferl.org/a/u-s-deports-russian-convicted-of-smuggling-f-16-manuals/30009039.html)
They’re not broke if they’re handing out multimillion dollar interest free loans to the Fighter Collection. And if they’ve chosen to do that over pay their 3rd party devs well…
I was waiting for this to reach hoggit, I just want to see people justify ED with this one.
People who go through the effort of trying to defend ED here are honestly pathetic. Then again. In some way, they are holding onto a very slim dream that ED is an authentic developer who looks out for fans...lol
>they are holding onto a very slim dream that ED is an authentic developer who looks out for fans...lol I desperately want it to be true, but it is so very obvious that it isn't.
All hope is for a miracle to happen over at ED HQ and we get actual people who can balance business and customer satisfaction. What is clear now is that ED does not care about us and what we lose. They are in a comfortable position where no competition can wedge them from their crown place as the "best combat sim". Hope can be restored *if* a competitor takes the field with everything that DCS offers AND more. A mission editor, a dynamic campaign, functional AI, Multiplayer, Multi crew, era focus, and more. Alas, until that time, we are stuck with CH-47s without lights , NVGs.,Vietnam era machine guns,half a map, no functional dynamic campaign, terrible customer service, bugs, buy a module with a 50/50 that it MIGHT lose support, etc.
Nor platform looks good but it's not open to the public. I would love it if bohemia decided to mix some middle of the road fidelity in vehicles with their infantry combat and new engine.
A business is about money. The difference is how greedy that business is and how far it will go. Sadly ED's modus operandi is releasing unfinished modules as often as possible to get money and then dropping them with no updates for years for some. So DCS is not even a combat airplane museum at this point, just a collection of very expensive snacks in place of the full dish.
You are absolutely correct. It's all about how you manage your business to make it profitable and customer friendly. ED has absolutely 0 skill in that area. Mods who are way too obsessed with the ability to ban people, minimum effort in communication, and most importantly 0 effort to remedy any of these issues. As I mentioned in my other comment. ED needs a radical change in its command structure. Which seems to focus on business output only. We need a competitor to give ED the push it must make to create better development incentives.
A business is about money. The difference is how greedy that business is and how far it will go. Sadly ED's modus operandi is releasing unfinished modules as often as possible to get money and then dropping them with no updates for years for some. So DCS is not even a combat airplane museum at this point, just a collection of very expensive snacks in place of the full dish.
Or they are employees of ED posing as ordinary fans.
If that's the case, it would explain why development is slow..
You may want to reconsider calling people pathetic over having disagreements over a simulation game. We're not talking about geopolitics or something. You can have firm opinions while being a polite person.
Polite... on the internet?!?! =)
"It's obviously fake !!"
I was waiting to see how the Anti-ED crowd was going to take this and run away with it, and use it to justify any of the speculation for which we have no facts for. The reality is that ED and HB had a dispute, *and they handled it through the correct, private, legal means*, and they had an amicable resolution in which HB still is happy to make modules for DCS and has straight out said that they will continue to do so for as long as they can. Because as it turns out, when you do things the *right* way and keep it between lawyers and NDA's instead of blasting half-assed messages on twitter and facebook to try and weaponize the community, it's a bad call and a bad look.
Yes it's perfectly fair to handle it privately if it's only a one time thing, but ED actively abused the privacy to do it to others unhindered as well. The only way for it to stop is if it goes public
"ED has actively abused the privacy to do it unhindered". What proof do you have? Who else have they done it to? I'm not here to defend ED as a company, but let's be real, you have AvioDev, Magnitude3/Leatherneck, Aerges, Aviron, Check Six, Crosstail, Deka, FlyingIron, Grinneli, Heatblur, IndiaFoxtEcho, MilTech5, OctopusG, OnReTech, OrbX, Polychop, Red Star, Ugra... who have all been developing modules for DCS without issues (and there's some I've missed here, too). So how exactly does going public on one issue, with *one* dev out of many, where the facts aren't actually available, prove *anything*? PLEASE justify it to me.
HB was ultimately ok with not being paid for _a year and a half_. That doesn't mean it is ok or that everyone needs to be ok with it. How would you react if your employer didn't pay you for a year and a half?
I'm pretty sure HB was not okay with not being paid, hence why their issue with ED was handled by *lawyers* and not by an attempt at public vilification. Obviously nobody likes not getting paid, that's a stupid argument to make because it has no bearing on the fact that the entire """"discussion"""" within the community at the moment revolves around statements which we don't even know are fully informed, nor do we have any more factual information showing any form of guilt, *and yet* the community (as seen in this thread) are so hungry for ED's head that they can't sit back, take a breath and look at it objectively. *Edit: The downvotes only prove I'm correct
I've followed the online flight sim crowd since the Usenet days. No one is ever happy and everything is always shit.
I haven't been around that long, but I've been within the DCS (FC3 original) and BMS community for at least 15 years, and yeah, I know how it goes sadly. It's literally a community of Karens.
People just want to know what's going on because they're heavily invested, I'm sure there are some people just here to watch the drama but the majority of people are concerned that the game they love and have spend hundreds on is going up in smoke.
>I'm pretty sure HB was not okay with not being paid, hence why their issue with ED was handled by lawyers and not by an attempt at public vilification. Notice the use of my word "ultimately," which means, "in the end." Obviously they were ultimately okay with it which is why they're still here.
>nor do we have any more factual information showing any form of guilt Can you stop lying please? We have a whole bunch information that show a pretty clear picture. What kind of "factual information" would you need until you believe that something is up? A physical letter with an admission of guilt signed by Nick Gray with sealed with ED's wax seal delivered to your door personally?
We have a *lot* of *hearsay*. We have a *lot* of *claims* from people who have clear biases both on the Razbam *and* the ED side. We have a *lot* of random bullshit claims from others in the community who *claim* to say they know better than the other random people on the internet, without *any* form of proof or justification. A few quotes from Razbam or ED *does not* provide actual justification or fault on one party or the other. For some reason people on Reddit have some fucked up reasoning that whatever they find on reddit or discord is automatically fact, and legally the "correct" reason for things that will prove their point. So *yes*, the *only* thing that would indeed prove an admission of who was at fault would be a *legal resolution* which has been published publicly. If you can't accept that, you're just a typical internet Karen who thinks that public vilification from twitter is the reality of the world, and I'm sorry to say, that's *not* the reality of how things work.
>without *any* form of proof or justification. We have several statements from the parties involved. Why do you keep repeating "without ANY proof or justification"? Their statements alone are proof and justification for *something*, even if it's not clear what exactly. Why claim that there is no basis for anything if there clearly is? >A few quotes from Razbam or ED *does not* provide actual justification or fault on one party or the other. You are right. Luckily I'm not a judge, I'm just a guy who has eyes and can put 2 and 2 together. >For some reason people on Reddit have some fucked up reasoning that whatever they find on reddit or discord is automatically fact, and legally the "correct" reason for things that will prove their point. This is again, a lie. Most people don't believe everything is a fact, but there will always be speculation. The more information is out there, the more accurate the speculation will become. >So *yes*, the *only* thing that would indeed prove an admission of who was at fault would be a *legal resolution* which has been published publicly. Are you saying I am not allowed to form an opinion based on the information that is available to me? Are you saying I am not allowed to communicate that opinion to other people? Am I only ever allowed to believe and use information if it is absolutely 100% legally confirmed? I'm sorry, but that is not how the world works. Information will almost always be incomplete, so if you stick to only 100% legally confirmed facts, then you will fail to understand a lot of the things that happen around you. For example, you will be the perfect target for corporate bullshit, because they tend to control the information very tightly. So if you ignore circumstantial evidence and "hearsay", then they can just fuck you over as long as they want, they just don't have to be a bit careful with their public messaging. >If you can't accept that, you're just a typical internet Karen who thinks that public vilification from twitter is the reality of the world, and I'm sorry to say, that's *not* the reality of how things work. Why is it so hard for you to understand this simple fact: I am not a judge. I'm not even a lawyer. I'm not obliged to stick to 100% legally confirmed facts. If I get pretty fucking clear statements from 2 module developers that they weren't paid in time by ED, then I would be a huge idiot to dismiss that information because it's "hearsay". And again, so maybe you finally understand it: I know I'm not a judge. I know this info is not legally binding. I know I'm missing information. I know I don't know the full picture. But still: I can not ignore the information available to me, because I'm not an idiot.
Take a breath and step away from the keyboard for minute. Because you need it. I have money invested in this simulator too, from both Razbam, Aveodev and eagle dynamics. But i care how they use my money and it is not looking good for ED. You say that you dont trust anything on Discord or Reddit, so why are you here? I dont care if this was handled i a legally right way. But the evidence says that ED did not payed Either razbam or HB. If the evidence is not true, Nobody would be talking about this here. But we do, without any bans. How is that? Because ive heard that this subreddit is quite hard when it comes to that. Have you thought about that? So everyone is not sure what to believe. I believe that a dude called Mr. Grey takes money from Development for the mentainance of his old barrels with wings on. You heard that right? And Thats not what im paying for with my own money to have him using them for his old ww2 planes. And dont say its not real evidence, you can check it on open websites that is legit. You have your opinion, we have ours.
My takeaway is HB are cool dudes who think with their heads, and ED...obviously I have no idea what was going on, but I cannot think of *any* good reason not to give people their money for a year. The one mitigating factor on ED's behalf is that HB were clearly happy to continue developing for DCS - their reasons for trusting this wouldn't happen again must be solid, or they wouldn't do it.
I think HB just doesn't have any choice but to stick with ED. There is no other *combat* sim to develop modules for. ED seems to be in a position similar to Boeing's. In that it can dictate terms to their subcontractors, these have no one to go to if they decide they have had enough of ED's bullshit.
There is a really simple reason to not give people the money you owe them....you don't have it because you spent it already.
Lots of genuine reasons, like insolvency. The email even alludes to that possibility (though it's not saying that's the reason).
>and use it to justify any of the speculation for which we have no facts for. That's not exactly true. Just because we don't own the hard drives where those emails are stored, doesn't mean we have "no facts". We have a bunch of circumstantial evidence that paints a grim picture. Plausible deniability might work for the courts, but I'm not dumb. I can put two and two together. >The reality is that ED and HB had a dispute, *and they handled it through the correct, private, legal means*, and they had an amicable resolution in which HB still is happy to make modules for DCS and has straight out said that they will continue to do so for as long as they can. The other reality is that having to use "legal means" to get paid is evidence of EDs horrible attitude towards their partners.
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Cobra literally commented on this post and justified its context. Pitchfork down.
that they regret their stuff being leaked? What justification are you going with? ED didn’t pay them and they can’t and won’t talk about it. It’s also a thing in the past so why would they? He also commented on the post earlier but he took it down.
If I were HB, I would have already taken a hard look at the contracts and would have pushed in clear safeguards before making the F4. But yeah this does look garbage on ED, and while its true that this is not fully comparable to the RB situation, it is at least partial evidence that EDs not paying RB may not be purely because of legal disputes and that ED may have garbage/irresponsible financial management.
The CEO using ED as a bank account is pretty irresponsible id say. Its never good when people use company assets for private endeavours. 2 Million a year to The Fighter Collection iirc.
I couldnt care less if Nick Grey has a fighter’s collection or succubus collection as long as he doesn’t use ED to support his other financially unviable projects. it really explains a lot on ED. Why they keep publishing unfinished modules, why the core gets ignored so long, why it takes so long to develop anything, etc.
Where'd all the shills go?
Oh they are here downvoting everyone lol
I saw some of their posts down further. "I wonder what HB did that forced ED to breach the payment contract?" LOL
Oh my fucking god man, "Forced ED to breach a payment contract"?! ED boomers over-cope in ways I never thought would be possible.
They are still here. They went through the "it could be fake" narrative and now they are in the "look, they found a solution in the end and now HB is ok with ED. It's not a big deal".
They treat ED and HB like equals and people. As if there wasn't a clear imbalance of power and legal ramifications
They’re waiting in line with cash in hand, getting ready to throw it at an unfinished CH-47 and Halfghanistan.
Hey, we need people to buy halfganistan! Then maybe razbam will be paid. ED business cycle is obviously 3rd party release -> don’t pay 3rd party -> release half done EA products to pay 3rd party when they inevitably complain
You'll see an uptick in shill like comments on weekdays. ... Coincidentally.
I'll bet ED is gonna release chinook and afghanistan in a half baked state i guarantee it
*gestures vaguely to the EA feature list for Chinook*
Just like they did with the Viper, which was right around the time this whole thing was going on.
Hoggit still struggling to understand the concept of early access.. Released? Check features, state, reviews. If exceeding your criteria: buy it. Else: repeat after next update. ( let the downvotes cast a shadow upon this comment )
Avgas aint cheap Exhibit #573
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History repeats itself.
Here's my 2 cents on this. If HB has been burned before in this kind of thing, and RB is going through it right now. Why on Earth would HB release the F-4 during all of it? Yeah there's the HB store which accounts for a lot of sales, but I seriously doubt HB just decided to drop the F-4 under the risk of not seeing any of the money from the DCS store. Same goes for Kola and the OH-58 to a lesser extent, even if it wasn't public through most of their development cycle, I'm sure word spreads between devs. RB has tried to drag HB into this several times over their experience with this problem. So what made them confident enough that they would be paid, that they were willing to release those modules?
Why wouldn't they release the module they have been working for 3-5 years ? Invested a mountain of money, time and passion for ? If anything they're in the perfect position atm. Drop it, make the money, maintain it, then fuck off to greener pastures. Not releasing it could have sank their company. HB isn't as huge as most thiknk.
This email is 5 years old. I think the post you're replying to is asking: why did they develop the F4 at all if they went through this 5 years ago with the F14? They knew this issue had occurred essentially before they could have begun that 3-5 year process you posited. So it would be interesting to hear how the F14 issue resolved and what assurances they were given that they weren't sinking years of work into the F4 to not get paid again.
Perhaps they managed to force concessions on ED like having their own shop to at least partially avoid similar situation repeating in the future?
Because the people who post this/react to this just want to use it to vilify ED without it having any bearing to the current situation, and are completely ignoring the fact that ED and HB handled this privately through legal means *the right way* and came out with an amicable solution where HB continues to develop and wants to develop more modules.
Here's how that works in the world of subcontractors and all that shit: You're a big company, you string someone small on large money. You string them so long they become desperate. You offer them a smaller portion of money you owe them. They agree cause the alternative is not seeing any money.
Listen, I literally live in the world of Prime and Sub Contractors. You want to try to bullshit some reasoning about this situation? Let's go. The reality is we don't know the legal clauses and agreements between ED/TFC and Razbam, and then the legal agreements between Razbam and the Equadorian Air Force (who is supposedly the group which they sold/traded/whatever the SDK to). We *do not know* how the breakdown of contractors is handled; especially since you can have multiple successive layers of contractors (for example, the Prime Contractor who then subcontracts various parts of production of a software or a manufacturing capability). We don't know if Razbam signed an agreement to be the Prime Contractor to the Equadorian Air Force, and that was what kicked off the disagreement between ED and RB (which is what ED claims, but again, is unsubstantiated), or if ED is the Prime Contractor by legal agreement of licensing in the SDK to all Sub Contractors (Third Party Devs) and Razbam misinterpreted the license agreement to mean that they could use it as desired (as seems to be the interpretation from Rob from RB) to sell/trade/send to other enterprises. *Maybe* ED is the Prime Contractor, or maybe Razbam is the Prime contractor. *We do not know, because we are not privy to the legal contracts and agreements between these companies and the End User.* Any claims otherwise are *complete and utter bullshit speculation with no basis in fact or reality*. If you make any claims via the random assortment of likely biased (*from both sides*) statements then you're just a fool.
The degree of reductionism that has surrounded this situation since the news broke has been driving me insane. Everyone wants this to be a "fuck you, pay the man" situation so desperately but even asking people to consider that this *might* be a more complicated thing than that gets you labeled as an ED shill.
*The right way* would have been ED paying what they owed on time in the first place and not make up excuses to delay until the law steps in (or however they resolved it in the end). And not every company can afford to run years without payment until lawyers sort it out - even ED themselves said they need EA releases to keep going and Heatblur had their own store to have at least some income from the F-14. So I'm not convinced RB even had the option to keep working on those modules and wait for a resolution. Sure the could have kept quiet regardless but some explanation would have been necessary once they stopped development and then I prefer them to be open about it. Also not sure it would qualify as "vilifying" when people post the (apparent) truth that this is the second time ED hasn't paid a 3rd party for an extended time - it does make it harder for those trying to purely blame RB though.
*The right way* is determined by the contractual obligations between the companies; in this case ED and RB. *We as the End User, as random people on the internet, with incomplete and biased information from both sides, do not know what the reality of the situation is.* And as I have *continually* argued in this thread to incessant downvotes, that *nobody here knows what the situation is*. We *cannot* make determinations of fault, no matter our opinions. But that's apparently too much for the internet Karens here on Hoggit to accept, that they're literally an outside inconsequential bystander, no matter how much they scream into the void for the virtual manager. And realistically, welcome to Capitalism. If you run a business and you don't have the overhead to support the business through legal issues, you're going to fail. Nobody cries when the town bakeries died during Covid or when the new bar died over the winter months; but suddenly ya'll think it's an injustice if Razbam dies? Sorry to say, that's just reality. It's shit, but that's what happens when you don't financially plan well; Heatblur did, Razbam didn't, and we can see what happened. I don't think anyone here can say what is "Apparent" truth or fiction, since we don't know what is actually completely factual, unbiased information and what isn't. Do you know what the original reason behind ED not paying HB was? Does *anyone* here know what it was and can say, with complete backed by proof information, that the situation between Heatblur and ED had even a remotely similar root cause as the current Razbam - ED situation? *I guarantee nobody here has that information*. And quite literally *yes*, all we have now is mass *vilification* of ED without *fact* that it's their fault (to be clear, it is entirely possible it could be their fault, I'm just stating nobody knows and jumping up either side's ass is pointless bullshit at best). I would like to remind you (and others) that this isn't the *first*, not even the *second* time that Razbam has tried to weaponize the community against something that Rob/Razbam had issues with (and in both cases, were proven to be the one at fault, rather than those accused), so it's very much worth taking anything they say with a healthy bit of skepticism.
Funny how people are willing to judge what one side did based on what the public knows but when other people then dare to critique the other side it's "we don't have enough information" all of a sudden.
>without it having any bearing to the current situation Why do people keep repeating this nonsense? What do you mean "any bearing", we have a lot of communication from ED and from RB, now from HB. This paints a pretty clear picture, unless you deliberately choose to ignore anything that goes against your narrative.
We have statements that are given by people who have obvious biases and who also have admitted that they don't have the entire breadth of information. We can make wild guesses and suppositions from these statements, but not a one of them gives facts. Only *hearsay*. What I have been arguing is that we *as a community* with the information currently available to the *actual* Razbam-Eagle Dynamics (or more accurately, Razbam-The Fighter Collection) situation, that is actual *indisputable evidence* which is not just hearsay or claims by either side, is what we need to use to judge the situation. So far as we've seen is a *lot* of biased statements from one side, and a very legal-sounding statement from the other; meaning *nothing* that has been posted has been in any way reasonable to the current situation. """"""""""""""""" My narrative """"""""""""""""" (*and I put that in massively heavy quotes*) is that nobody here knows jack shit besides random one-off quotes that they choose to put together like crazy conspiracy theorists with no actual basis in fact.
>We have statements that are given by people who have obvious biases and who also have admitted that they don't have the entire breadth of information. We can make wild guesses and suppositions from these statements, but not a one of them gives facts. Only *hearsay*. Sometimes hearsay is all you're going to get. You can, however, puzzle together some parts of the story by looking at who said what and what was and wasn't denied. For example, HB just wants everyone to be friends and they're sad that their communication was published. If you read between the lines just a little, this basically confirms that the communication was real. So the HB situation 2019 lines up really close to the RB situation 2024. That's just too much of a coincidence, given the similarity of the situation (3rd party module maker dealing with ED when releasing a new module). >What I have been arguing is that we *as a community* with the information currently available to the *actual* Razbam-Eagle Dynamics (or more accurately, Razbam-The Fighter Collection) situation, that is actual *indisputable evidence* which is not just hearsay or claims by either side, is what we need to use to judge the situation. You're not going to get "indisputable evidence" most of the time. Not just on reddit/social media, but in the real world. In the real world, you have to work on a limited set of information and make half-informed decisions all the time. Of course it would be better to know everything and make perfect decisions, but that's not how it usually works. When that happens, you can do one of two things: just believe your favorite authority and if any doubts or inconcistencies come up, you brush them aside because they're not "indisputable evidence". OR you turn on your brain, look at the available limited information, and try to make sense of it as best as you can, keeping in mind that your favorite authority might not be truthful and might be hiding information from you. >""""""""""""""""" My narrative """"""""""""""""" (*and I put that in massively heavy quotes*) is that nobody here knows jack shit besides random one-off quotes that they choose to put together like crazy conspiracy theorists with no actual basis in fact. Stop saying "no actual basis in fact". It's a lie. It's a fact that HB said what they said. It's a fact that RB said what they said. It's a fact that ED said what they said. You're right that the *content* of what they said can't be considered a fact, but you can still look at what was said and deduce some things with logic. And BTW you're not neutral at all if you claim that it's all just speculation. Your conclusion directly benefits ED, because if everything is just speculation, there's no reason not to buy RB modules and send money into ED's pockets. You might not care because you already bought it, but I find morally bankrupt not to warn new players that there is *something* fucky going on and they should hold out on buying RB modules for the time being. Even if there is no "indisputable evidence" for it, there is still a serious amount of circumstantial evidence that warrants being careful and suspicious.
This looks weird and sketchy as heck not knowing any details. But HB has multiple continuing DCS projects lined up, some of which are still early. More than one of which they started well after this situation. So obviously the relationship is now satisfactory to HB for their foreseeable future with some degree of confidence, whatever changed or what issues or misunderstandings were resolved. HB isn’t about to “eff off”. They would have long ago if it was truly still in doubt like you speculate.
> Why wouldn't they release the module > Drop it, make the money, maintain it This what I'm saying, if ED wasn't paying them the store's share, then they aren't making the money, they can't maintain it and I question why they would release it.
ED did pay them in the end. Not long after the F-16C released. I do agree it's interresting to know why they took the risk to make another module knowing this. But it must have been a calculated risk as they took care to diversify (MSFS and NOR actrivities) and making sure to point as much customers as possible to their own store. I hear DCS makes very, very good money for the industry. Much more than any other sim, including MSFS.
ED must have offered a plausible explanation for payment delays and appropriate assurances (maybe incentives?) that made them comfortable enough to proceed with the F4. I really hope they did get paid fairly for the f4. This confirmation of a pattern of inability or refusal to honor contracts and pay their third party developers honestly makes me worried for the future of DCS. There really is no viable competitor so if ED goes down that’s pretty much it for now, BMS notwithstanding
Except we still don't know the details of either situation. They could be the same reasons. They could be entirely different.
And I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they are. Correlation does not equal causation.
HB have been through this before, and it’s pretty likely the result of that was an agreement for them to sell through their own store and on top of that a renegotiation of how they are paid to avoid this in future. This appears to be a unique agreement as other 3rd party devs do not have their own stores.
Heatblur has their own store which provides them a source of income. Kola is on offer in the Orbyx store afaik. That provides a stream of money that is separate from ED.
Because the only reason their business has a chance of staying alive for now is to keep DCS from being a walking corpse. I guess the last thing anyone wants is ED going out of business and DCS dying.
Because there's no alternative to DCS as a platform right now. BMS is out of the question (BMS devs have stated this multiple times) and everything else is not only years away, but has to deal with decades of headstart.
lol ED are such assholes.
With the Chinook and Halfghanistan being yeeted out the door. I wouldn't be surprised if you see Wags on Cameo selling $50 Q&A videos that they seemingly only break out now if they need a distraction.
Yep I paid direct ...just because of this potential reason and with all the dirty laundry and finding out now that heatblur had endured the same 💩💩💩 just validates this position. I'll not be buying another module unless there is a direct purchase option.
In hindsight I'm very glad I bought the Tomcat from Heatblur's store. My naivete and excitement made me pre-order through the Heatblur store 🤣
I could handle the bugs, but my F-15E being held basically hostage is making my sanity eject at mach 2
Summary so far, Razbam and HB provided evidence of unfair and illegal behavior from ED (nobody says these proves anything without any doubt, but they still remains evidences whether you like or not). ED so far provided no evidence at all that counter the two evidences. Yet there are worshipers that get pissed off since so far it is much more believable that ED is in fault rather than the contrary. ED a very greedy company, who care about sorely money and cash grab so that the owner can have fun with its personal goal with money (loans) that come directly from the company while at the same time ED has the audacity to keep saying we are a small team with small budged hence why DCS is still shitty....10 million dollars loan....there are full games that are made with 10 million dollars in less time and less buggy. Yet we are here with people denying what is under their nose ...... WORSHIPERS
I prefer my summaries of situations without a heavy dose of bias, assumption, and histrionics lol. 0/10
I hope HeatBlur finally buys DCS soon, it is bound to happen sooner or later.
Buy ED? Hell no. Better to create a new sim from scratch instead of the sinking ship that is DCS.
Hoggit, Floggit, and DCS_Exposed have become r/Doomit I’ve been keeping away from the drama and every time I come back to see what’s up/what’s passed, and it’s just the internet stirring up more shit and prying into things they have no business prying into every time. Talk about rubbing salt in the wound.
Not another cent should go to ED or razbam until both solve their problem. Teach them both. As for HB, does buying off the website allow you to still play in game?
Don't worry, Razbam has not got the money for a year now.
I am glad I switched to MSFS the community is enthusiastic and positive .DCS community seems toxic
it is and it isn't. People have put a lot of time and money into something they love, but on the other hand they've got zero other options and the only product that serves their needs at all is, and let's be frank here - dog shit. Yes, the planes are well modelled, yes the graphics are nice - but the actual product overall is really poor. People have been saying it for literally years at this point, but the actual core game is really really poor - you're basically just shooting fish in a barrel with awful AI, bugs that are continuous, theres' a totally bluefor lop-sided array of random planes available in a hodge-podge mismash of theatres, and so on. The reddit for the product should not be more interesting than the actual product. I think everyone does want it to not suck, but there's basically those that accept that it does actually kinda suck to play, and those that can't see past the graphics and clickable cockpits. That's leaving aside the view of those who think the product is ok-ish but that the company that made it are incompetent at community management and frequently borderline immoral, which is a whole other can of worms.
I think everyone should take a little time to read through OPs Reddit post history. This is a person with a longstanding deep dislike for ED. Multiple occasions calling on others to “review bomb” ED. Years of nothing positive to say about the sim, only non stop complaining. Years of non stop Razbam praise to the point it is not hard to imagine they could be somehow affiliated. Claims to no inside information that they cannot say publicly. I’m not calling for a witch hunt or anything, just for everyone to realize that it’s not always just about “getting to the bottom of this” but sometime deep seated long history. This OP has it out for ED and is directly trying to cause the Reddit community to turn on them. I highly doubt ED is blameless in all of this, but this poster seems almost like they are at the point of not even wanting the sim to exist any longer and doing anything and everything they can to harm ED publicly. I wonder who’s alt this is, or what third party they are affiliated with to claim to have so much insider knowledge over the years? They are pretending to just be a “concerned citizen” but upon a deeper look come of much more like a combatant. Interesting stuff
> I think everyone should take a little time to read through OPs Reddit post history. Actually, what I did is take a little time to read through *your* post history and I see that you've commented *twentyfour times* so far in this post. It would seem that you have just as much of an axe to grind. Interesting stuff indeed.
You know you're on the wrong side of the debate if the only thing you can say is an ad hominem
If one random internet user can out ED to the point of doing actual harm to their business then they deserve it.
This topic is obviously being brigaded from somewhere. Apparently this has to do with that guy bonzo again? Shocking. They guy who literally profits from drama surrounding dcs is trying to create more drama
Profits? I assume you mean a popularity type of profit?