Recommendation: stay out of the “details” of the transition. It’s not HR’s responsibility to clarify what specific people can and can’t use a restroom or other facility.
Speak with your executive team and an employment attorney/in-house counsel to develop one universal policy regarding restroom use, name changes to emails, etc. This needs to be a policy that comes from the top, not one imposed by HR. You might even need to seek outside counsel that has specific experience with non-discrimination law.
After you have a policy, work towards implementation and communication. Know that every policy decision has unintended consequences (good consequences, bad consequences, or indifferent). Be prepared to address those consequences tactfully.
Absolutely nailed it.
This is a CYA moment. You’re not protecting against good intentions. You need protection from the unintended consequences.
Remember that sometimes the absence of a policy is the best policy. Guys who go by Dick/Bill but are legally Richard/William will be impacted by naming policies.
No answer will make everyone happy, and remember your CEO can and may override whatever you think of. Our job in HR often has to deal with risk mitigation, but CEO’s jobs often have more to do with picking which risks they want to take on.
One thing you could mention to your corporate office is the possible need to plan for more single occupant, gender neutral restrooms in the future. This allows everyone from shy poopers to trans people feel taken care of.
Yes.
But at a significantly lower occurrence than people in entry level jobs on off shifts - which are, quite literally, filled with horny teenagers.
>...and Church rectories
Oh fuck off. This isnt some moral issue. It's a liability and productivity issue.
I can’t overstate how important it is to have legal counsel weigh in on a suggested plan based on risk analysis. The EEOC issued new guidance on gender discrimination against trans and non-binary employees. Plus, several EEOC decisions have been issued in the past several months that will inform risk here.
I believe that several EEOC guidance/decisions are also being taken to court. This is an area that is in constant flux.
CYA will be the name of the game for those on the ground.
Solidify your position now and stick to it. Communicate to the women that Robin will be using the appropriate restroom (meaning the one that she feels most comfortable using) and that if they have any questions or concerns they can address them with you directly. If anyone does have any issues, offer them the use of the gender neutral restroom instead.
This is backed by OSHA and MO doesn’t have any state-specific restrictions that may be cause for alternative options: https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OSHA3795.pdf
That's really the best option, imho. This isn't a big enough deal where you need to rearchitect all the bathrooms in the building. People just get to use the bathroom they associate with their bathroom, and if anyone has a problem with it, they can use the gender neutral restroom.
Serious non-political question - if all the other women feel uncomfortable sharing the restroom are they expected to use the gender neutral Restroom now?
I mean, sort of? Gender identity is a federally protected class. We wouldn’t accept it if an employee demanded that a cis woman stop using the same restroom as her. Whatever your personal or political feelings on the matter are, the law and OSHA are clear. Workers should be allowed to use the restroom that corresponds to their gender identity, and best practice is to offer gender neutral restrooms to everyone .
Imagine the reverse, though. You have a cis woman who has transitioned to be a man. They present as a man and want to use the men's restroom, but you force people to use the bathroom of their birth sex because they disclosed they are trans. Those same women who are complaining about Robin will still be complaining about this hypothetical person. They would probably be even more uncomfortable. So we're do they go? You won't allow them to use the men's room they are biologically a women, but women uncomfortable because they look like, talk, act, and say they are a man. Rock and a hard place because you entertained policing genitals
And then what appens when you hire an outside person who presents one way but biologically is different and is indistunighab?. You have a policy of enforcing biolgocal sex in bathrooms, but you suspect they are lying. Are you going to personally inspecting their genitals? To ensure they use the 'right' bathroom? And what if they don't disclose their bio gender. Are the women who are currently uncomfortable with Robin still going to be uncomfortable with something they don't know about? Doubt.
The only real course of action is either making gender neutral bathrooms or the policy is you use the bathroom you personally are comfortable with, and that is that. Otherwise you very quickly get into inappropriate situations and potentially discrimination
I completely agree with you, there are so many what if scenarios that could make everyone feel uncomfortable.
What if the employee is fluid and some days identifies as a woman and some days as a man? Can they use both restroom?
It just seems like it will
Never be a win-win situation
Genderfluid person here! Where I work I can use any restroom I like, but I work in California, which is very liberal, on a university campus, which is even more liberal. Plus, I look fairly androgynous, and it's not like I'm having conversations in there. I do what I have to do and get out. It's harder for fluid and nonbinary people who look particularly masculine or feminine.
Yeah best to leave it up to the individual to use what they are personally comfortable with.
This scenario feels basically like "what if x person is apart of y religion and they bring z religious ornaments and I practice something differently. That makes me uncomfortable and they should stop". Uh no someone can wear whatever religious item they want.
People are different and some of those difference make people uncomfortable because they haven't been exposed to that subset of people. And that's fine. It's on the person who feels uncomfortable to either remove themselves from the situation or move on because we are all adults and sometimes have to interact with people from diverse backgrounds.
Tldr: don't be a baby and grow up
The truth of the matter is just because someone feels threatened does not mean someone else is threatening (facts don't care about your feelings type beat).
If an employee came to you and demanded that a homosexual employee be barred from the bathroom because they felt threatened by their presence there (absent of any actually threatening behaviour) you would kindly ask them to kick rocks. The same is true of a transgender employee.
So do all the ladies (that were born that way) not have a right to basic accommodations? But satisfying one everyone could potentially be alienated.
Not picking a fight but trying to really come to the best answer that satisfies accommodates everyone.
The OP said that the employees are right leaning and if they reported it already to HR they must be concerned to some degree.
The easy answer is the transitioner (?) has the right to the female restroom.
But I am more interested in a well thought out answer that accommodates both biological women (plural) and one person that is transitioning that doesn’t alienate either party.
I think a reasonable accommodation is that the individual in this situation can use the ladies restroom and anyone who's uncomfortable with that can use the gender neutral restroom.
Anyone who's alienated by that arrangement can deal. Bigotry does not need to be accommodated. This individual is obviously genuine and this has been a long term transition they're going through.
They're getting accommodations. If they have a problem with it, there's a gender neutral restroom. You'd be surprised, but using a restroom next to a trans person is not a big fricking deal. There's a good chance you have and just didn't know it.
Years ago - went through an EE f2m. Distribution/warehouse - rightward leaning as well - no one cared (in a negative way).
We did not openly communicate, that was EE's choice. We worked on a plan with EE that resulted in educating immediate supervisors on how to respond if complaints were made and how EE should bring to our attention if issues arose.
Not a peep. Followed up with EE several times, EE was happy as shit with everyone's support.
I believe involving EE was crucial.
This. I've been doing a ton of DEI training lately and that is on thing that comes up across all trainings......always include the ee in any communications, even if it's just to say "Hey, we're sending this out and I wanted to give you a heads up". Keep the ee as involved as they can be in whatever communications regarding their status.
You want to affirm now that Robin will be using the women's restroom as it aligns with her gender. To try and isolate Robin to make the other ladies comfortable means you would be discriminating against Robin based on her sex and gender.
This is a pivotal moment for your company culture. I would think about exploring outside resources to consult or provide training. There are a lot of great DEIB consultants, if that is not in your budget see if there are any LGBTQIA non profits in your area that offer education resources.
I am a trans HR professional who does these trainings for companies all the time, and have folks I can connect you with as well. No pressure to use my services specifically, but I do agree wholeheartedly with this person’s suggestion. It sounds like your company could benefit from this kind of training right now, and it’s one of the best things you can do to demonstrate to any other lgbtqia+ employees that you’re committed to supporting them in the workplace
I haven’t had to deal with this issue but it’s got me thinking.
I think it’s best to put feelings aside ( regardless of how you feel about this situation) and consult your attorney and go by the books . That’s the best way to move forward and it will help you explain/justify any decisions that are made
What does your state legislation say? What are your company policies? What you decide now will set a precedent for future situations. Regardless of any discomfort from other employees, if your state law allows, it is Robin’s right to use the bathroom that aligns with her gender identity. You can also offer Employee Assistance Program (EAP) services to support employees who may need it. Be empathetic, but clear about the legal rights regarding Robin’s situation. This is a very important time for her, and it's crucial to be as supportive as possible.
I work at a major university and was part of the team that implemented the bathroom policies. The solution we landed on was to let people use the bathroom consistent with their gender identity, AND have single-occupancy bathrooms available for anyone who wishes to use one (for any reason). That sidesteps the issues and supports everyone. The only people who will have a big problem with it are the anti-LGBT haters, and that’s their problem, not yours.
Robin has approached you and let her preferred pronouns be known. That should be enough. If you have women come to you regarding her using the women’s bathroom then let them know that Robin is permitted to use the women’s restroom.
When we had this at my previous employer our employee was actually in it so it was a lot simpler. IT can quite simply change the employees email address and link the old email to continue to go to the employers account so there are not issues. Hr should help facilitate the transition just as they would any new employee.
I’ve never really understood this tbh, and I’m hoping that you could share your perspective if you don’t mind? I’m non-binary and I PREFER they/them pronouns. (Most people don’t use them, which sucks a whole lot for me, but I digress.)
The way I look at it is that gender is a social construct, and gendered pronouns are how we describe our gender to society. So when your gender is a certain thing, you PREFER that someone uses the pronouns that align with your gender.
Is it just a matter of people often using “preferred pronouns” for trans people and “pronouns” for cis people? Like the “othering” aspect? Because I just use “preferred pronouns” for everyone so it seems normal to me. Like my husband is a cis man, and his preferred pronouns are he/him.
Am I overthinking this, or underthinking it?
Hi there. I believe you're overthinking it. It's definitely othering, though. My husband is cis, and he would say his pronouns are his pronouns. Not negotiable or 'preferred'.
Thank you for demonstrating how to gracefully accept feedback or a correction and acknowledge it and move forward without any defensiveness.
I know it sounds smarmy, but really… thank you. You’ve provided a model that I can build from when I face a similar situation.
You completely misunderstood what I said. Most people with penises do not have urinals in their homes. If it is something they ABSOLUTELY need to use the bathroom, they’d have one in their homes. There’s no way they are using urinals consistently *more* than toilets to the point where they can’t use a toilet appropriately
Edit: It seems like the person I was replying to (who knows a lot about what her husbands bathroom habits are) blocked me which is fine lmao. The original comment I replied to was likely removed because it reeked of transphobia and said that Robin *needs* to continue to use the men’s bathroom bc she has a penis (while misgendering Robin multiple times). Why the person who blocked me decided to use this moment to tell me about how her husband prefers to piss is beyond me. Its wild to me that she would go so hard on her husbands urination preferences and not stop for a minute to think “hey maybe a trans woman has a difference experience and *their preferences* matter too.”
But alas, people are fucking morons
Look... you may or may not hold your husband's hand while he takes a piss but don't speak for "most men" when you're talking about one. Move on... a toilet is a toilet. Ee won't be able to use the urinal after surgery, and they still need the toilet to take a dump. If they feel safer in the women's then that's the route you take.
Women’s restrooms typically have stalls with doors. Men’s typically have open urinals and stalls that may or may not have doors. For a m2f transitioning that has taken on the she/her pronouns and they are now starting to be comfortable using the women’s restroom. At some point men will be uncomfortable as well. Why would Robin have to be singled out?
Congratulations. I’m thrilled your company does. Not all companies do. If you think all companies are the same then you have a lot to learn about hr.
Maybe you should consider the response I was replying to before you jump down my proverbial throat. But you can’t, since excelisthedewthofme deleted it. But I’ll give you the gist, it was about men’s restrooms having urinals and how Robin still having a penis should use a men’s restroom because she still had a penis.
No dear. The person I replied to deleted their comment. Please work on your reading comprehension before you jump to conclusions. It doesn’t look good on someone who works in hr.
Honey, I responded to your deleted message... sooo how you gonna pretend like you didn't go that route? You have an awfully selective response choice now don't you? Narcissists gonna act like narcissists.
I am not in HR and I don't have useful advice for you, but I am trans and I wanted to say thank you for taking this seriously and doing your best to be supportive of Robin. You rock.
Why is the gender neutral bathroom locked? Having employees request a key to use a bathroom seems unnecessary.
In any case, there really isn’t anything to discuss with these women or any other employees. Robin is using the bathroom that she feels comfortable using, just as everyone else does.
We have several government and customer contracts that require random drug testing for our employees. Drug screens are conducted in that restroom and supplies stored there. Due to contract related SOPs, that restroom must remain locked and access restricted.
Finding another appropriate place to store those supplies should be part of the plan your company makes when writing their new policy.
If that’s not possible, another restroom that remains unlocked should be made the gender neutral bathroom.
This is similar to a situation currently in progress where I work. The way it has been handled so far is to ask that she use the gender neutral bathroom for the next 6-8 weeks just to allow time for HR to get a plan in place, after which the expectation is things will be sorted to the satisfaction of as many as possible. It was also stated to her the expectation is she'd be welcome to use the women's restroom after the 6-8 weeks is up as this is only about how best to deal with the change.
Getting a plan in place involves discussion with the company employment attorney since this is our first transitioning employee. We have previously employed a fully transitioned m2f employee who used the women's restroom at a different facility so this is not entirely a first for us. In that case since the employee had moved into the area from another city no one other than HR knew they were transitioned.
I'm not part of the team handling this so I only know what my coworker has shared, but apparently the plan is a to put out a company wide policy statement. They believe it would break HIPPA regulations to share anything about a specific employee's medical status including that they are transitioning. I'm not certain that's true if the transitioning employee agrees their status can be shared, but that's the solution we're going with.
I know this isn’t the point of your comment but HIPAA is unlikely to apply here. https://ogletree.com/insights-resources/blog-posts/what-all-employers-need-to-know-about-protecting-employee-health-information/
The latest EEOC guidance includes some transgender guidelines on what constitutes discrimination or harassment. I would highly recommend reviewing it in case you need something to bring to your CEO.
I look forward to seeing the advice given.
Can you please send an update once you get a decision made and communication sent out?
I am very interested to learn how it goes and if you run into any pushback or issues.
I have have had trans employees going female to male and never had any bathroom issues come up. Plus they for the most part had already transitioned by the time they arrived.
I did have to legally update names for tax purposes and benefits but that was pretty easy.
I have never had this particular issue and work at smaller organizations without any legal counsel. So I would love to hear back on what works.
Sure! I met with Robin yesterday, have a meeting scheduled early next week with outside counsel, and a follow up with Robin next Friday. We should be on our way with policies and action plan a few days after that and I’ll update.
We had the same exact situation in my manufacturing plant last year.
I’m in NY, and so this individual is very covered by law. We engaged in some conversation over a couple weeks to plan how they wanted to come out. She decided she wanted me to announce it.
We had a meeting with the management team to let them know. To be clear, you should do your best not to get into any language about this persons translation beyond what’s necessary. We said “so and so is now going to be called x. Please refer to them as a woman using she/her pronouns. We will be sending out an announcement and you are required to support it and here’s how.” This gave them an opportunity to have questions answered early on.
We sent out an email with the same information to all employees and indicated what bathroom she will use. We did have some women say they were uncomfortable and we told them they can use our single stall restroom or report issues if necessary but they were expected to treat her like any other woman.
It’s a hard adjustment but the support needs to start with management.
Why would you apologize to the people making the complaint? First misstep there.
The rest is just follow the law. Nothing needs to be communicated unless Robin specifically wants that. The people discriminating against her don't win. She gets to use the bathroom she wants and that's that.
If Robin hasn’t communicated to her coworkers about the transition, and they only know her as Rob/he/him, is it discriminatory? We obviously don’t Robin’s relationship with coworkers, but if it’s not blatantly obvious to them that she is transitioning, they may not want to assume what she is/isn’t doing. I can see how they might be uncomfortable seeing a person they know as a male in the women’s room without context.
To be clear I’m genuinely asking if it’s discriminatory, since it’s multiple employees bringing up ER issues to HR. If I missed something in the original post lmk.
That’s not what I’m asking. I’m not asking about sharing the info. You said the other employees were being discriminatory. But can they be discriminatory if they don’t know their coworker has transitioned and know them as a man using the women’s room?
I think my HR Coordinator was just a bit stunned when she was approached by the employees and kind of “froze” because she didn’t know what to say. She didn’t apologize for Robin being in the restroom, it was more like “I’m sorry you had an uncomfortable experience”. But point taken.
HRBP here (Virginia) and trans person here. Meet with the person and ask them how they want to handle it and go from there. They set the tone. We had two people transition, and it was pretty low key. They didn't want a big announcement, etc. as folks knew (think small town Virginia). We have not had any issues, so far, regarding bathrooms but I always always advocate for many gender neutral single use bathrooms as to make them accessible.
Also, I would not speak to all the women about this person. Simply speak to the ones who complained to HR. And ensure to ask the employee what they want. People will talk and that will settle itself, we are adults, no need to announce informally about someone using the restroom. Our state is you have to use the bathroom that matches with your body parts (unfortunately). We have a trans person who physically transitioned and I think she uses the ladies room now. Hasn't been an issue.
This is such a personal and sensitive topic that I don't know if there is a clear right way. We had to go through this, and it never came up that the women needed extra notices or that w needed their permission to allow the use of the women's room.
I personally feel the women's room is built around privacy anyway, and whatever the person in the stall next to me is doing or who it is is none of business. The person who transitioned had been with the company for a long time, and was fairly visible. Or choice was to actually send a notice to the office - the CEO chose to do this, and shared the news. That was that, and no concerns were ever raised, and we were made aware of the new name for the employee. All of this was some of course with the blessing of the employee.
I live in a blue state. If anyone has issues, it certainly wasn't bright up to us. Having senior leadership sharing the message was obviously important to send the message that this was a non issue.
Is someone well respected in your office, ideally in a senior role, could eventually do something similar, I think it goes a long way towards setting the right expectations for how to react or not react in this situation. Getting the employee to that place where she can be comfortable with it too is important.
As a trans person who has experienced discrimination at work and in the restroom by my work when transitioning its really nice to see progress and the desire to change things. Ultimately others' discomfort and transphobia in my opinion shouldn't be a reason to discriminate against this employee using the restroom they identify with. I felt uncomfortable being forced to use the disabled toilet, and it was often locked. I had to use the female toilet even while having a beard and male ID because in the male bathroom I would be harassed and they'd complain to security. It was humiliating and eventually led me to not want to go to work anymore.
Also this is coming from someone who is a trans man. So it was other men harassing me. It's ironic how it doesn't matter whether you're trans male or female either way the message is clear: we don't care about you, we don't want you, we are willing to discriminate against you. It's not right.
Not sure why you are getting downvoted for this. I had the same experience.
I don’t get why washrooms are such a big deal. We are all there for the same reason, who cares if you are peeing standing up or sitting down.
I suspected I'd get down voted. It's one of the reasons I'm furthering my goals to work in HR due to these issues. I think people downvoted me because it's an inconvenience to acknowledge trans people exist and are their employees or colleagues. Transphobia - it's that simple.
Don't listen to the transphobes in the thread (people down voting for example). It's so important to listen to the people it's actively affected. And also to remember that there is a reason trans people are under/unemployed and have to often turn to sex work because we struggle to find work that accommodates us.
I've dealt with this and I treat it as I would a cis gendered person. Unless a complaint with verified or verifiable information comes to me I not policing the use of a restroom. A trans woman is a woman and Robin should be able to freely use the bathroom. Unless you plan to go to every man and woman within your company and announce how restrooms should be used.
Otherwise, if other females come to you to complain, explain that they are using the women's restroom with woman and unless they have an actual incident to complain of you don't police the restroom. Or those women can always use the gender neutral one. I've had this exact situation and am in a red state. I don't go down people's rabbit holes. I think about preface of the argument and know they wouldn't go up to any unfamiliar cis woman and question if she has the right to use the restroom
Hi! This is a huge moment for your company where the decision I think would be pivotal for your DEIB stance. Firstly, I would lean on your employment lawyer to look into your state policies procedurally. Secondly, have the EE (and any future ones if this comes up again) be an active participant in what’s happening. How “out” are they wanting to be? Facilitate only the most basic “ need to know “ conversation. You’re dealing with only the most basic information in that the transition. Nothing medical or anything like that is ANYBODY’s business. HIPAA doesn’t apply. Put in the change request for their email address. Have the conversation with her manager. In regard to the bathrooms themselves: explain in the most plain terms Robin is able to use the facilities as she identifies as a female. Offer gender neutral facilities if anyone is uncomfortable.
DO have gender neutral bathroom access. My only concern here is the access to facilities while you have you government contractors looking to complete UAs on site. The supplies and potential lack of constant access for all employees is an issue. Your gender neutral facilities shouldn’t be in a bathroom that you’re trying to make multi purpose because of your drug testing needs.
OSHA requires that employers make toilet facilities available so that employees can use them when they need to do so, and the employer may not impose unreasonable restrictions on employee use of the facilities.
I understand DOD/DOT/ other safety sensitive parts of the manufacturing industry require the drug tests. Lock a cabinet for the supplies, not your bathroom …look for asset protection cabinets or ones similar to narcotics cabinets. They’ll run you like $400 and can be mounted to a wall and can protect the integrity of drug testing. ULine has them. You’re going to either have to find another single stall bathroom or make one.
Lastly there any many grants that can assist in constructing gender neutral bathroom facilities. Most exist for schools but I have seen a few for other places. Check in with local LGBTQ nonprofits in your area to see what might be available to you.
I worked in tech, and we had a large amount of trans employees. I can honestly say I never saw any of them using a gendered bathroom. Always the third option, each floor had a neutral, single occupancy bathroom. This was what they all used. It worked well, and frankly I think that’s the right answer for everyone.
The fact that Robin hasn’t been sharing the situation with her manager concerns me. You say you think they will handle things well but also that Robin didn’t share anything about the transition with them. Aside from the communication about the toilets I’d be making sure that the manager is supportive and can have open communication with Robin about this as the relationship with manager is so important
I had this situation with a 19yo female who transitioned to a male. The situation was much more complicated as the employee only wanted to be male M-Sa but if he was scheduled on Sundays, wanted to be a female. He stated he didn’t want people from the church he attends to know about his transition to a male so on Sundays he’d be a female since some of the church members would visit that retail location on Sundays. The situation because even more complicated when her father approached management enraged that we would “allow” that transition and the use of a male name for his “daughter.” The father was head of security for the building the retail store was located in. This was a complete shit show from an HR standpoint.
Y'all sound like you did your best. Life is messy and the laws are often written by people who don't deal with these issues. Courts are so friendly to employers even in cases of outright hostility. I appreciate that y'all did your best for what was probably a really difficult time in that person's life.
We have other cases where a name is shortened to the use of a preferred nickname, I.e. Mike instead of Michael, using a middle name they go by other than the legal first name. For this employee I used fake information. Her name is actually a gender neutral name with both a traditionally masculine and feminine spelling of the name. She is requesting to use the feminine spelling of her existing name.
I know I’m late to the party here but you’re out of your depth in this on your own. You need to engage with a group that is an expert in gender and identity and then overlay your HR expertise on this.
We have a very helpful group in ireland that love hearing from us when we call them. Always helpful and have helped us navigate issues in the past.
Edit: really disappointing to see so many responses being “typical HR” with themes of cover yourself, legal route, don’t open yourself to risk etc.
Good luck! Not easy - especially in the US where some of these identity issues are also highly political. Had an incident at one of our other sites in Oregon in 2017 that was a nightmare to deal with.
I think depending on the state you could be breaking the law if you do t let her access facilities? Consult the law first and maybe call a local lgbt organization to see if they can advise you
Sounds like your org needs some belonging and inclusivity training. If you have already put policies into place, you should reintroduce them. Some generations will need multiple trainings on communication and working together with people of all gender identities.
Please contact your employment counsel. A lot of the responses here are well intentioned but normative does not equal legally required or even protected. There’s a big gap between can and should - especially in these matters. It seems that you know your workforce so this shouldn’t be a surprise. People may pleasantly surprise you but in a state like MO and the workforce you’ve described it’s going to be critical to have legal basis for any accommodations.
We’re all uncomfortable sharing the bathroom with Jessica, because Jessica sucks. We have to share it anyway. I see no difference except I’d bet Robin practices better hygiene
Putting in my two cents as a trans person who went through a similar situation a few years back. I'm transitioning the other direction, and trans issues have more of a spotlight now, so there's some nuance to consider. The big thing for us was carefully crafting the building wide announcement. It was put in similar terms to a service dog announcement - no specifics, no names, just "there is a service dog handler/trans person working in your building. This should not disrupt your work. Here are links to relevant regulations. Please contact HR or your manager if you have questions or concerns. Please don't badger the individual about it." But, yknow, corporate-ized. It was also sent by one of the higher managers instead of HR, to indicate a little more support. This was his choice, but I appreciated it.
I chose to wait to switch bathrooms until I had my gender marker changed on my ID, but at the time I lived in a state that made it VERY easy to do so, so that may not be practical for Robin. I also occasionally worked nights or weekends in a mostly empty building, so I had the luxury of making my first trips away from curious eyes.
The reality is that Robin needs to use the restroom, and she's only going to get more feminine from here. Eventually it's going to get uncomfortable for the men if she uses their restroom. And while nobody likes to be uncomfortable...discomfort doesn't harm anyone. Robin clearly doesn't want to cause any disturbance and respects other women's space. It just makes sense to let her use the women's room.
That said, I would recommend permanently unlocking your gender neutral bathroom, and expanding your gender neutral restroom space if possible. If you have restrooms on multiple floors, for example, you can designate the second floor as all gender neutral, or something to that effect. This creates some buffer space for anyone who feels discomfort, for any reason.
As far as the coming out goes, start with a brief meeting with HR, Robin, and her manager. Cover the basics - how to address her, what questions (if any) are welcome, and invite the manager to reach out to HR with any concerns. Then do a larger meeting with Robin's team covering the same information. Then your building announcement. Get feedback at each step and pivot your strategy as needed.
Not to derail the conversation, but I am genuinely confused about everyone's hang-ups around bathrooms.
There are literal cubicals in the ladies. Once you are in one, what the person is doing in theirs is irrelevant. I have also skipped women's toilets lines and ducked into men's toilets loads of times at pubs, clubs and events because it just makes sense to use toilets that are available and no one bats an eye.
Maybe it's because I come from a background where unisex toilets are really common, but I just don't see why all the fuss.
The burden to communicate her transition should not be on HR to do.
It’s her journey and she needs to communicate to all relevant parties when she feels comfortable
You can make reasonable accommodation based on her request and she needs to provide appropriate doctor notes or certificates confirming the status of her transition
You are well within your rights to ask her to use the gender neutral bathroom while you are trying to figure this out and if it’s any support, that bathroom can solely be used by her for the time being.
FYI, depending on the state, your advice is straight up unlawful and would land your employer in legal jeopardy.
Edit: after a bit of research this is not dependent on state, it is federally unlawful as well
You can't ask for doctors certs. Explicitly illegal in my state. Probably also runs into trouble with HIPAA. You'd need a written consent form. Paper trails now your employer is demanding something you absolutely shouldn't be. edit: case law shows this is considered discriminatory federally as well. And the case was 8 years ago.
You can't ask her to use a specific bathroom other than the one that corresponds with her gender identity. This is all over EEOC guidelines, OSHA, etc. Defacto discrimination. And that's just federal, state and city laws could be even more protective. lf other employees have concerns you can ask those individuals to use other restrooms.
Thank you.. this is helpful..
I was coming from an angel that the OP is trying to make the best decision here..
The employee is asking for the employer to make announcement of her transition to the company on her behalf.. whereas she does not feel ready to do it yet herself with her manager etc.. is that ok??
The request to use women bathroom would that not go via the accommodations process?
And given that OP is still trying to figure out the best way to accommodate and communicate, an interim provision to use the gender neutral bathroom on mutual understanding is a temporary solve.. would it still be breaking any laws if it’s a mutual temporary arrangement?
No, definitely not by the accommodations process. You don't ask for accommodations to use your bathroom, do you? Best is just not to ask her to do that while you "figure things out" since its already sorted; she already uses the restroom she identifies with by her own statement. There are zero grounds for you to present this as a mutual arrangement. You'd be the one asking her not to when she's clearly already comfortable doing it. Discriminatory treatment is not lawful or ok because it's temporary, nor because the employee agreed to it.
I don't see where in OPs post the announcement stuff is. It doesn't make sense to me anyway; if an employee is using a new restroom, they're not closeted. I don't think the law addresses disclosure of whether someone is LGBTQ. Ethically, of course, you shouldn't disclose it unless its at their request, given your employer agrees to such a request. My judgment is that you're better off letting them handle initial disclosures though, barring some unusual circumstances. If its gotten to HR I surmise most relevant colleagues already know (and plenty that aren't relevant). If that's the case an announcement could just be a token gesture of support and inclusivity, which would be good for everyone. Posting antidiscriminatory notices, sending messages, and conducting mandatory inclusivity training also help shore up liability.
You've gotten good advice about a lot of things but one thing I haven't seen mentioned is her medical census update.
I've had one employee transition in my ~ 20 years of HR experience and she used the company insurance... we had to fight getting her census information updated.
Her internal census information was updated to reflect her being female but medical insurance would not allow an adjustment because she had male anatomy - even after reassignment surgery.
I personally worked on this and cannot for the life of me recall how this turned out, but please get with your benefits team/broker to discuss how this piece should be/will be handled and keep that open line of communication with Robin.
You’re toeing the line of being sued for gender/ sex discrimination. If this is America, The EEOC and OSHA state that transgender employees have the right to use the bathroom that corresponds with their gender identity in the workplace. By not letting Robin use the women’s restroom she would be discriminating against her and opens the ground for an EEOC claim. Offer the gender neutral bathroom to anyone that’s uncomfortable sharing the restroom.
What does "complete" mean? Because whatever line you draw, someone else would draw it elsewhere. This metric doesn't work and discriminates against cis women who are not conventionally effeminate. Robin sincerely identifies as a woman and therefore may use the women's restroom.
You do know that it could be complete now, right? Employees don't have to pass as a woman to be complete in their transition. A lot unpack in your ignorance.
I 100% agree with this and am shocked people are down voting for you saying the discomfort of female employees matters. Women should not have to step aside to allow a man who feels like he’s a woman into a female safe space. The fact that women are told to deal with it is misogynistic.
However, there’s the legal aspect. This could be discrimination towards Rob. The company could get sued. This is hr and we must follow the rules and not discriminate. But the women matter too. Thats my personal views talking though. Sorry you got downvoted for speaking up for the women. Clearly they are uncomfortable with this Rob, and their feelings are valid. All they see is a male. I can’t blame them.
[u/Icy-Cupcake 894] (https://old.reddit.com/r/humanresources/comments/1ds7t43/first_gender_transition_in_progresshelp/lb1jb4t/) has a great response, so I'll just link to that here. Any issues that come up in the restroom, regardless of gender assigned at birth, should be addressed in this manner.
What is a "female safe space"? Most definitions include some concept of a place that is free from discrimination, criticism, harassment, or any other emotional or physical harm. **Robin's** (you deadnamed and misgendered her) presence is not harassment, nor is it harmful. If someone feels strongly, it appears that there's a gender-neutral restroom available to them.
Would it be ok for someone who is racist to have a safe space away from those of the race they hate? Would it be ok to let men who have religious beliefs that think of women as lesser than men the ability to treat women in the workplace in a manner consistent with their religion? Of course not!
There are women out there who have had negative experiences with men. That is why they are uncomfortable with a male coming into a female space. That’s the short answer, but I could go on for days about why female spaces are important to females.
Racism has nothing to do with this. Let’s not derail from the subject. This is an issue of sex based rights and women being told to shut up and deal with an obvious male coming into a female space. Her discomfort is 100% valid and should not be ignored.
It’s a tough situation with a lot of legality issues regardless. I’ll reiterate my point that I won’t disregard my female employees comfort to affirm a man who “feels” like a woman. Multiple women feeling uncomfortable with one man is not to be ignored. There is a reason for that. Their feelings in this situation matter too and must be addressed.
I’ll also add that I don’t know rob and rob doesn’t know me. He doesn’t know of OPs post or any of the comments below. He will be fine.
There are lots of fantastic toolkits available to walk you through recommendations and creating policy where it doesn’t currently exist. [Here is one.](https://www.hrc.org/resources/transitioning-in-the-workplace-a-guide-for-trans-employees) Also, if your org wants to be more affirming overall, you can hire an outside consultant to support HR and the org in making this transition. If you’d like to message me, I can send you some referrals. Finally, you should speak to an attorney who specializes in this to understand the laws as they relate where you’re at. They are wonderfully helpful.
I would look into a workplace transgender consultant. They can help with both internal communication and legal issues to ensure liability is minimized. This has the possibility to take a wrong turn and working with subject matter experts experienced with this issue can be critical. A decade ago I worked with such consultants during an executive transition at a well known financial institution. You only have one opportunity to get it right.
Exactly, this was going to be my rec. Plenty of specialists who can help OP in this space to be inclusive and compliant. I do wonder if given the redness of the business and that these specialists would tend to be coastal if that may cause issue… I would hope not.
Certainly an item of consideration. Not that old rich white guys in finance are the most inclusive, but certainly a very different demographic and things have changed in the macro environment significantly since my experience. I’m sure there are SMEs with this industry / demographic in their experience. Definitely important to ensure the consultant(s) are culturally a fit as well. Due diligence is key.
This really shouldn’t be your burden to bear. It really isn’t an HR issue, at least not yet. But yeah, as others mentioned, talk to the company’s attorney first before communicating anything to anyone.
If they can’t accept that Robin is a woman, who will be using the women’s restroom. I’d not only be following up with an insubordination write up but a stern overview of discrimination.
Given my understanding of the context, I don't think a write up for insubordination is called for. Inclusivity training company-wide is probably a good idea from everyone's perspective though, and I appreciate your perspective there!
No, your own prejudice and ignorance is not a valid reason to disobey the civil rights act or tell someone what their own gender identity is. If you are subordinate at work in ANY other scenario you would receive disciplinary action.
“ Federal protections under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) has interpreted Title VII to prohibit employment discrimination based on gender identity, including restroom access (EEOC) (Missouri Labor).
Additionally, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has guidelines stating that employers should allow transgender employees to use the restroom that corresponds with their gender identity, as this promotes health and safety in the workplace”
If a woman just started at the company and saw Robin in the bathroom, obviously not knowing Robin as Rob, and this new person would feel uncomfortable with a man in the bathroom, would she give second thought to Robin being in it? Might she just think it's a masculine looking woman?
She’s not “on her way to becoming female,” she already is a female, she’s just correcting a mistake nature made. Stop thinking of her as a man transitioning to a woman, she’s ALWAYS been a woman, it just might have taken her longer and a lot more confusion to realize that.
Robin is and always has been a woman. Always. Right now she’s just on the path to aligning what her outside looks like to match what she’s always felt like inside.
I didn’t mean to offend. I’m merely communicating the process the way it was communicated to us BY ROBIN. You are making assumptions. I am using wording from the person experiencing a transition, who is telling her story as she has experienced it, not making my own assumptions. Your judgment of me is unwarranted.
I wasn’t judging, sincerely, I was trying to point out that something said (that wasn’t attributed to the person going through the transition) could lead to problematic viewpoints of Robin and what she’s dealing with. As someone who has transitioned, I know how important the use of language can be when people refer to us and how it affects the way they treat us going forward. I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear or soft about it, it’s obvious you care about Robin and the other employees, which is really appreciated by those of us who face these situations.
And I didn’t mean to be harsh. I’m protective of Robin - I am careful to use words and the narrative she has used so I don’t misrepresent her experience is all. Have a great evening.
A biological man should not be using a women's restroom!!!! This is crazy. Why do women have to put up with this? We fought so hard for women's rights just for men to identify as women now and take over our spaces. This is crazy.
I would also consult your employment attorney to review your plan and to ensure your communication is clear, consistent, and compliant.
And, for the love of god, concise.
Recommendation: stay out of the “details” of the transition. It’s not HR’s responsibility to clarify what specific people can and can’t use a restroom or other facility. Speak with your executive team and an employment attorney/in-house counsel to develop one universal policy regarding restroom use, name changes to emails, etc. This needs to be a policy that comes from the top, not one imposed by HR. You might even need to seek outside counsel that has specific experience with non-discrimination law. After you have a policy, work towards implementation and communication. Know that every policy decision has unintended consequences (good consequences, bad consequences, or indifferent). Be prepared to address those consequences tactfully.
Absolutely nailed it. This is a CYA moment. You’re not protecting against good intentions. You need protection from the unintended consequences. Remember that sometimes the absence of a policy is the best policy. Guys who go by Dick/Bill but are legally Richard/William will be impacted by naming policies. No answer will make everyone happy, and remember your CEO can and may override whatever you think of. Our job in HR often has to deal with risk mitigation, but CEO’s jobs often have more to do with picking which risks they want to take on. One thing you could mention to your corporate office is the possible need to plan for more single occupant, gender neutral restrooms in the future. This allows everyone from shy poopers to trans people feel taken care of.
I'm wondering why the single occupancy gender neutral bathroom was locked in the first place.
Definitely wondered. Sounds like an executive’s private restroom prior to a remodel kind of situation…
Or it’s so rarely used they just didn’t want to have to keep cleaning it while it’s barely used.
This is a manufacturing plant. People will fuck eachother.
I mean people f*** each other in offices in sales organizations too...and Church rectories...and corporate headquarters.
Yes. But at a significantly lower occurrence than people in entry level jobs on off shifts - which are, quite literally, filled with horny teenagers. >...and Church rectories Oh fuck off. This isnt some moral issue. It's a liability and productivity issue.
Yes, this!
[удалено]
This is the answer
I can’t overstate how important it is to have legal counsel weigh in on a suggested plan based on risk analysis. The EEOC issued new guidance on gender discrimination against trans and non-binary employees. Plus, several EEOC decisions have been issued in the past several months that will inform risk here.
I believe that several EEOC guidance/decisions are also being taken to court. This is an area that is in constant flux. CYA will be the name of the game for those on the ground.
Solidify your position now and stick to it. Communicate to the women that Robin will be using the appropriate restroom (meaning the one that she feels most comfortable using) and that if they have any questions or concerns they can address them with you directly. If anyone does have any issues, offer them the use of the gender neutral restroom instead.
This is backed by OSHA and MO doesn’t have any state-specific restrictions that may be cause for alternative options: https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OSHA3795.pdf
Thanks!
Thanks!
That's really the best option, imho. This isn't a big enough deal where you need to rearchitect all the bathrooms in the building. People just get to use the bathroom they associate with their bathroom, and if anyone has a problem with it, they can use the gender neutral restroom.
Serious non-political question - if all the other women feel uncomfortable sharing the restroom are they expected to use the gender neutral Restroom now?
I mean, sort of? Gender identity is a federally protected class. We wouldn’t accept it if an employee demanded that a cis woman stop using the same restroom as her. Whatever your personal or political feelings on the matter are, the law and OSHA are clear. Workers should be allowed to use the restroom that corresponds to their gender identity, and best practice is to offer gender neutral restrooms to everyone .
Imagine the reverse, though. You have a cis woman who has transitioned to be a man. They present as a man and want to use the men's restroom, but you force people to use the bathroom of their birth sex because they disclosed they are trans. Those same women who are complaining about Robin will still be complaining about this hypothetical person. They would probably be even more uncomfortable. So we're do they go? You won't allow them to use the men's room they are biologically a women, but women uncomfortable because they look like, talk, act, and say they are a man. Rock and a hard place because you entertained policing genitals And then what appens when you hire an outside person who presents one way but biologically is different and is indistunighab?. You have a policy of enforcing biolgocal sex in bathrooms, but you suspect they are lying. Are you going to personally inspecting their genitals? To ensure they use the 'right' bathroom? And what if they don't disclose their bio gender. Are the women who are currently uncomfortable with Robin still going to be uncomfortable with something they don't know about? Doubt. The only real course of action is either making gender neutral bathrooms or the policy is you use the bathroom you personally are comfortable with, and that is that. Otherwise you very quickly get into inappropriate situations and potentially discrimination
I completely agree with you, there are so many what if scenarios that could make everyone feel uncomfortable. What if the employee is fluid and some days identifies as a woman and some days as a man? Can they use both restroom? It just seems like it will Never be a win-win situation
Genderfluid person here! Where I work I can use any restroom I like, but I work in California, which is very liberal, on a university campus, which is even more liberal. Plus, I look fairly androgynous, and it's not like I'm having conversations in there. I do what I have to do and get out. It's harder for fluid and nonbinary people who look particularly masculine or feminine.
Yeah best to leave it up to the individual to use what they are personally comfortable with. This scenario feels basically like "what if x person is apart of y religion and they bring z religious ornaments and I practice something differently. That makes me uncomfortable and they should stop". Uh no someone can wear whatever religious item they want. People are different and some of those difference make people uncomfortable because they haven't been exposed to that subset of people. And that's fine. It's on the person who feels uncomfortable to either remove themselves from the situation or move on because we are all adults and sometimes have to interact with people from diverse backgrounds. Tldr: don't be a baby and grow up
The truth of the matter is just because someone feels threatened does not mean someone else is threatening (facts don't care about your feelings type beat). If an employee came to you and demanded that a homosexual employee be barred from the bathroom because they felt threatened by their presence there (absent of any actually threatening behaviour) you would kindly ask them to kick rocks. The same is true of a transgender employee.
I think that's their problem. Not the people running the business and certainly not the person who has a right to basic accommodations.
So do all the ladies (that were born that way) not have a right to basic accommodations? But satisfying one everyone could potentially be alienated. Not picking a fight but trying to really come to the best answer that satisfies accommodates everyone.
>So do all the ladies (that were born that way) not have a right to basic accommodations? What accomodations are they being denied in this situation?
The OP said that the employees are right leaning and if they reported it already to HR they must be concerned to some degree. The easy answer is the transitioner (?) has the right to the female restroom. But I am more interested in a well thought out answer that accommodates both biological women (plural) and one person that is transitioning that doesn’t alienate either party.
I think a reasonable accommodation is that the individual in this situation can use the ladies restroom and anyone who's uncomfortable with that can use the gender neutral restroom. Anyone who's alienated by that arrangement can deal. Bigotry does not need to be accommodated. This individual is obviously genuine and this has been a long term transition they're going through.
They're getting accommodations. If they have a problem with it, there's a gender neutral restroom. You'd be surprised, but using a restroom next to a trans person is not a big fricking deal. There's a good chance you have and just didn't know it.
I would start with your employment attorney before making any kind of communication or decision.
Years ago - went through an EE f2m. Distribution/warehouse - rightward leaning as well - no one cared (in a negative way). We did not openly communicate, that was EE's choice. We worked on a plan with EE that resulted in educating immediate supervisors on how to respond if complaints were made and how EE should bring to our attention if issues arose. Not a peep. Followed up with EE several times, EE was happy as shit with everyone's support. I believe involving EE was crucial.
This. I've been doing a ton of DEI training lately and that is on thing that comes up across all trainings......always include the ee in any communications, even if it's just to say "Hey, we're sending this out and I wanted to give you a heads up". Keep the ee as involved as they can be in whatever communications regarding their status.
You want to affirm now that Robin will be using the women's restroom as it aligns with her gender. To try and isolate Robin to make the other ladies comfortable means you would be discriminating against Robin based on her sex and gender.
This is a pivotal moment for your company culture. I would think about exploring outside resources to consult or provide training. There are a lot of great DEIB consultants, if that is not in your budget see if there are any LGBTQIA non profits in your area that offer education resources.
I am a trans HR professional who does these trainings for companies all the time, and have folks I can connect you with as well. No pressure to use my services specifically, but I do agree wholeheartedly with this person’s suggestion. It sounds like your company could benefit from this kind of training right now, and it’s one of the best things you can do to demonstrate to any other lgbtqia+ employees that you’re committed to supporting them in the workplace
Would you mind sharing your website or a way to access your services? Would love to learn more.
I’ll dm you!
Thank you!
This! Our local LGBTQ+ center provides free safe space PD sessions to all local businesses.
I haven’t had to deal with this issue but it’s got me thinking. I think it’s best to put feelings aside ( regardless of how you feel about this situation) and consult your attorney and go by the books . That’s the best way to move forward and it will help you explain/justify any decisions that are made
What does your state legislation say? What are your company policies? What you decide now will set a precedent for future situations. Regardless of any discomfort from other employees, if your state law allows, it is Robin’s right to use the bathroom that aligns with her gender identity. You can also offer Employee Assistance Program (EAP) services to support employees who may need it. Be empathetic, but clear about the legal rights regarding Robin’s situation. This is a very important time for her, and it's crucial to be as supportive as possible.
I work at a major university and was part of the team that implemented the bathroom policies. The solution we landed on was to let people use the bathroom consistent with their gender identity, AND have single-occupancy bathrooms available for anyone who wishes to use one (for any reason). That sidesteps the issues and supports everyone. The only people who will have a big problem with it are the anti-LGBT haters, and that’s their problem, not yours.
Robin has approached you and let her preferred pronouns be known. That should be enough. If you have women come to you regarding her using the women’s bathroom then let them know that Robin is permitted to use the women’s restroom. When we had this at my previous employer our employee was actually in it so it was a lot simpler. IT can quite simply change the employees email address and link the old email to continue to go to the employers account so there are not issues. Hr should help facilitate the transition just as they would any new employee.
As a HRBP and trans person, I want to say that our pronouns are not preferred. They are simply our pronouns. 💜
Thanks for this wise advice. I learned from it.
Thank you for the correction. I do tend to stumble over words some days. I do appreciate it.
I’ve never really understood this tbh, and I’m hoping that you could share your perspective if you don’t mind? I’m non-binary and I PREFER they/them pronouns. (Most people don’t use them, which sucks a whole lot for me, but I digress.) The way I look at it is that gender is a social construct, and gendered pronouns are how we describe our gender to society. So when your gender is a certain thing, you PREFER that someone uses the pronouns that align with your gender. Is it just a matter of people often using “preferred pronouns” for trans people and “pronouns” for cis people? Like the “othering” aspect? Because I just use “preferred pronouns” for everyone so it seems normal to me. Like my husband is a cis man, and his preferred pronouns are he/him. Am I overthinking this, or underthinking it?
Hi there. I believe you're overthinking it. It's definitely othering, though. My husband is cis, and he would say his pronouns are his pronouns. Not negotiable or 'preferred'.
Thank you! It’s always good to be reminded that my perspective is far from universal
It’s just pronouns, not preferred pronouns. This is best practise as preferred suggests there is another option.
I bumbled it. Thanks for the correction.
Thank you for demonstrating how to gracefully accept feedback or a correction and acknowledge it and move forward without any defensiveness. I know it sounds smarmy, but really… thank you. You’ve provided a model that I can build from when I face a similar situation.
[удалено]
You know there are plenty of cismen who pee sitting down, right? Having a penis does not preclude using a normal toilet.
People with penises use toilets, not urinals, more often than not. Most people don’t have urinals in their homes. Stop with the transphobia
[удалено]
You completely misunderstood what I said. Most people with penises do not have urinals in their homes. If it is something they ABSOLUTELY need to use the bathroom, they’d have one in their homes. There’s no way they are using urinals consistently *more* than toilets to the point where they can’t use a toilet appropriately Edit: It seems like the person I was replying to (who knows a lot about what her husbands bathroom habits are) blocked me which is fine lmao. The original comment I replied to was likely removed because it reeked of transphobia and said that Robin *needs* to continue to use the men’s bathroom bc she has a penis (while misgendering Robin multiple times). Why the person who blocked me decided to use this moment to tell me about how her husband prefers to piss is beyond me. Its wild to me that she would go so hard on her husbands urination preferences and not stop for a minute to think “hey maybe a trans woman has a difference experience and *their preferences* matter too.” But alas, people are fucking morons
[удалено]
You and your husband actually don’t speak for ‘most men’. Lots of men sit to pee, even if a urinal is available. Lots of other men don’t.
Look... you may or may not hold your husband's hand while he takes a piss but don't speak for "most men" when you're talking about one. Move on... a toilet is a toilet. Ee won't be able to use the urinal after surgery, and they still need the toilet to take a dump. If they feel safer in the women's then that's the route you take.
Women’s restrooms typically have stalls with doors. Men’s typically have open urinals and stalls that may or may not have doors. For a m2f transitioning that has taken on the she/her pronouns and they are now starting to be comfortable using the women’s restroom. At some point men will be uncomfortable as well. Why would Robin have to be singled out?
All of our bathrooms have stalls with doors... how do you think we go to the bathroom? Wild you're in hr.
Congratulations. I’m thrilled your company does. Not all companies do. If you think all companies are the same then you have a lot to learn about hr. Maybe you should consider the response I was replying to before you jump down my proverbial throat. But you can’t, since excelisthedewthofme deleted it. But I’ll give you the gist, it was about men’s restrooms having urinals and how Robin still having a penis should use a men’s restroom because she still had a penis.
[удалено]
No dear. The person I replied to deleted their comment. Please work on your reading comprehension before you jump to conclusions. It doesn’t look good on someone who works in hr.
Honey, I responded to your deleted message... sooo how you gonna pretend like you didn't go that route? You have an awfully selective response choice now don't you? Narcissists gonna act like narcissists.
I see you deleted (or had removed) your others, are you going to delete this one too?
You're going full dive into your nonsense aren't you lol. I didn't touch a single message ma'am
[удалено]
[удалено]
I am not in HR and I don't have useful advice for you, but I am trans and I wanted to say thank you for taking this seriously and doing your best to be supportive of Robin. You rock.
Why is the gender neutral bathroom locked? Having employees request a key to use a bathroom seems unnecessary. In any case, there really isn’t anything to discuss with these women or any other employees. Robin is using the bathroom that she feels comfortable using, just as everyone else does.
We have several government and customer contracts that require random drug testing for our employees. Drug screens are conducted in that restroom and supplies stored there. Due to contract related SOPs, that restroom must remain locked and access restricted.
Finding another appropriate place to store those supplies should be part of the plan your company makes when writing their new policy. If that’s not possible, another restroom that remains unlocked should be made the gender neutral bathroom.
Supplies should be locked, not the bathroom.
This is similar to a situation currently in progress where I work. The way it has been handled so far is to ask that she use the gender neutral bathroom for the next 6-8 weeks just to allow time for HR to get a plan in place, after which the expectation is things will be sorted to the satisfaction of as many as possible. It was also stated to her the expectation is she'd be welcome to use the women's restroom after the 6-8 weeks is up as this is only about how best to deal with the change. Getting a plan in place involves discussion with the company employment attorney since this is our first transitioning employee. We have previously employed a fully transitioned m2f employee who used the women's restroom at a different facility so this is not entirely a first for us. In that case since the employee had moved into the area from another city no one other than HR knew they were transitioned. I'm not part of the team handling this so I only know what my coworker has shared, but apparently the plan is a to put out a company wide policy statement. They believe it would break HIPPA regulations to share anything about a specific employee's medical status including that they are transitioning. I'm not certain that's true if the transitioning employee agrees their status can be shared, but that's the solution we're going with.
I know this isn’t the point of your comment but HIPAA is unlikely to apply here. https://ogletree.com/insights-resources/blog-posts/what-all-employers-need-to-know-about-protecting-employee-health-information/
I agree it seems unlikely HIPAA applies, but I'm not the lawyer nor on the team so I don't really have a say. They're all saying it is a concern.
The latest EEOC guidance includes some transgender guidelines on what constitutes discrimination or harassment. I would highly recommend reviewing it in case you need something to bring to your CEO.
I look forward to seeing the advice given. Can you please send an update once you get a decision made and communication sent out? I am very interested to learn how it goes and if you run into any pushback or issues. I have have had trans employees going female to male and never had any bathroom issues come up. Plus they for the most part had already transitioned by the time they arrived. I did have to legally update names for tax purposes and benefits but that was pretty easy. I have never had this particular issue and work at smaller organizations without any legal counsel. So I would love to hear back on what works.
Sure! I met with Robin yesterday, have a meeting scheduled early next week with outside counsel, and a follow up with Robin next Friday. We should be on our way with policies and action plan a few days after that and I’ll update.
We had the same exact situation in my manufacturing plant last year. I’m in NY, and so this individual is very covered by law. We engaged in some conversation over a couple weeks to plan how they wanted to come out. She decided she wanted me to announce it. We had a meeting with the management team to let them know. To be clear, you should do your best not to get into any language about this persons translation beyond what’s necessary. We said “so and so is now going to be called x. Please refer to them as a woman using she/her pronouns. We will be sending out an announcement and you are required to support it and here’s how.” This gave them an opportunity to have questions answered early on. We sent out an email with the same information to all employees and indicated what bathroom she will use. We did have some women say they were uncomfortable and we told them they can use our single stall restroom or report issues if necessary but they were expected to treat her like any other woman. It’s a hard adjustment but the support needs to start with management.
Thank you!
Why would you apologize to the people making the complaint? First misstep there. The rest is just follow the law. Nothing needs to be communicated unless Robin specifically wants that. The people discriminating against her don't win. She gets to use the bathroom she wants and that's that.
If Robin hasn’t communicated to her coworkers about the transition, and they only know her as Rob/he/him, is it discriminatory? We obviously don’t Robin’s relationship with coworkers, but if it’s not blatantly obvious to them that she is transitioning, they may not want to assume what she is/isn’t doing. I can see how they might be uncomfortable seeing a person they know as a male in the women’s room without context. To be clear I’m genuinely asking if it’s discriminatory, since it’s multiple employees bringing up ER issues to HR. If I missed something in the original post lmk.
No one has the right to share that information. The answer to the employees complaining is it's none of your business. And it isn't.
That’s not what I’m asking. I’m not asking about sharing the info. You said the other employees were being discriminatory. But can they be discriminatory if they don’t know their coworker has transitioned and know them as a man using the women’s room?
Yup. They can be. They don't have to know.
But how?
Because sometimes intent doesn't matter. You can not mean to run a red light, not realize you did and still have run a red light
well they had no idea they transitioned so they were reasonably startled?
I think my HR Coordinator was just a bit stunned when she was approached by the employees and kind of “froze” because she didn’t know what to say. She didn’t apologize for Robin being in the restroom, it was more like “I’m sorry you had an uncomfortable experience”. But point taken.
HRBP here (Virginia) and trans person here. Meet with the person and ask them how they want to handle it and go from there. They set the tone. We had two people transition, and it was pretty low key. They didn't want a big announcement, etc. as folks knew (think small town Virginia). We have not had any issues, so far, regarding bathrooms but I always always advocate for many gender neutral single use bathrooms as to make them accessible.
Also, I would not speak to all the women about this person. Simply speak to the ones who complained to HR. And ensure to ask the employee what they want. People will talk and that will settle itself, we are adults, no need to announce informally about someone using the restroom. Our state is you have to use the bathroom that matches with your body parts (unfortunately). We have a trans person who physically transitioned and I think she uses the ladies room now. Hasn't been an issue.
This is such a personal and sensitive topic that I don't know if there is a clear right way. We had to go through this, and it never came up that the women needed extra notices or that w needed their permission to allow the use of the women's room. I personally feel the women's room is built around privacy anyway, and whatever the person in the stall next to me is doing or who it is is none of business. The person who transitioned had been with the company for a long time, and was fairly visible. Or choice was to actually send a notice to the office - the CEO chose to do this, and shared the news. That was that, and no concerns were ever raised, and we were made aware of the new name for the employee. All of this was some of course with the blessing of the employee. I live in a blue state. If anyone has issues, it certainly wasn't bright up to us. Having senior leadership sharing the message was obviously important to send the message that this was a non issue. Is someone well respected in your office, ideally in a senior role, could eventually do something similar, I think it goes a long way towards setting the right expectations for how to react or not react in this situation. Getting the employee to that place where she can be comfortable with it too is important.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience.
As a trans person who has experienced discrimination at work and in the restroom by my work when transitioning its really nice to see progress and the desire to change things. Ultimately others' discomfort and transphobia in my opinion shouldn't be a reason to discriminate against this employee using the restroom they identify with. I felt uncomfortable being forced to use the disabled toilet, and it was often locked. I had to use the female toilet even while having a beard and male ID because in the male bathroom I would be harassed and they'd complain to security. It was humiliating and eventually led me to not want to go to work anymore.
Also this is coming from someone who is a trans man. So it was other men harassing me. It's ironic how it doesn't matter whether you're trans male or female either way the message is clear: we don't care about you, we don't want you, we are willing to discriminate against you. It's not right.
Not sure why you are getting downvoted for this. I had the same experience. I don’t get why washrooms are such a big deal. We are all there for the same reason, who cares if you are peeing standing up or sitting down.
I suspected I'd get down voted. It's one of the reasons I'm furthering my goals to work in HR due to these issues. I think people downvoted me because it's an inconvenience to acknowledge trans people exist and are their employees or colleagues. Transphobia - it's that simple.
Thanks very much for your input.
Don't listen to the transphobes in the thread (people down voting for example). It's so important to listen to the people it's actively affected. And also to remember that there is a reason trans people are under/unemployed and have to often turn to sex work because we struggle to find work that accommodates us.
I've dealt with this and I treat it as I would a cis gendered person. Unless a complaint with verified or verifiable information comes to me I not policing the use of a restroom. A trans woman is a woman and Robin should be able to freely use the bathroom. Unless you plan to go to every man and woman within your company and announce how restrooms should be used. Otherwise, if other females come to you to complain, explain that they are using the women's restroom with woman and unless they have an actual incident to complain of you don't police the restroom. Or those women can always use the gender neutral one. I've had this exact situation and am in a red state. I don't go down people's rabbit holes. I think about preface of the argument and know they wouldn't go up to any unfamiliar cis woman and question if she has the right to use the restroom
I think you are right. Thanks for your take.
Hi! This is a huge moment for your company where the decision I think would be pivotal for your DEIB stance. Firstly, I would lean on your employment lawyer to look into your state policies procedurally. Secondly, have the EE (and any future ones if this comes up again) be an active participant in what’s happening. How “out” are they wanting to be? Facilitate only the most basic “ need to know “ conversation. You’re dealing with only the most basic information in that the transition. Nothing medical or anything like that is ANYBODY’s business. HIPAA doesn’t apply. Put in the change request for their email address. Have the conversation with her manager. In regard to the bathrooms themselves: explain in the most plain terms Robin is able to use the facilities as she identifies as a female. Offer gender neutral facilities if anyone is uncomfortable. DO have gender neutral bathroom access. My only concern here is the access to facilities while you have you government contractors looking to complete UAs on site. The supplies and potential lack of constant access for all employees is an issue. Your gender neutral facilities shouldn’t be in a bathroom that you’re trying to make multi purpose because of your drug testing needs. OSHA requires that employers make toilet facilities available so that employees can use them when they need to do so, and the employer may not impose unreasonable restrictions on employee use of the facilities. I understand DOD/DOT/ other safety sensitive parts of the manufacturing industry require the drug tests. Lock a cabinet for the supplies, not your bathroom …look for asset protection cabinets or ones similar to narcotics cabinets. They’ll run you like $400 and can be mounted to a wall and can protect the integrity of drug testing. ULine has them. You’re going to either have to find another single stall bathroom or make one. Lastly there any many grants that can assist in constructing gender neutral bathroom facilities. Most exist for schools but I have seen a few for other places. Check in with local LGBTQ nonprofits in your area to see what might be available to you.
I worked in tech, and we had a large amount of trans employees. I can honestly say I never saw any of them using a gendered bathroom. Always the third option, each floor had a neutral, single occupancy bathroom. This was what they all used. It worked well, and frankly I think that’s the right answer for everyone.
The fact that Robin hasn’t been sharing the situation with her manager concerns me. You say you think they will handle things well but also that Robin didn’t share anything about the transition with them. Aside from the communication about the toilets I’d be making sure that the manager is supportive and can have open communication with Robin about this as the relationship with manager is so important
I had this situation with a 19yo female who transitioned to a male. The situation was much more complicated as the employee only wanted to be male M-Sa but if he was scheduled on Sundays, wanted to be a female. He stated he didn’t want people from the church he attends to know about his transition to a male so on Sundays he’d be a female since some of the church members would visit that retail location on Sundays. The situation because even more complicated when her father approached management enraged that we would “allow” that transition and the use of a male name for his “daughter.” The father was head of security for the building the retail store was located in. This was a complete shit show from an HR standpoint.
Wow!
Y'all sound like you did your best. Life is messy and the laws are often written by people who don't deal with these issues. Courts are so friendly to employers even in cases of outright hostility. I appreciate that y'all did your best for what was probably a really difficult time in that person's life.
[удалено]
We have other cases where a name is shortened to the use of a preferred nickname, I.e. Mike instead of Michael, using a middle name they go by other than the legal first name. For this employee I used fake information. Her name is actually a gender neutral name with both a traditionally masculine and feminine spelling of the name. She is requesting to use the feminine spelling of her existing name.
I know I’m late to the party here but you’re out of your depth in this on your own. You need to engage with a group that is an expert in gender and identity and then overlay your HR expertise on this. We have a very helpful group in ireland that love hearing from us when we call them. Always helpful and have helped us navigate issues in the past. Edit: really disappointing to see so many responses being “typical HR” with themes of cover yourself, legal route, don’t open yourself to risk etc.
Thank you!
Good luck! Not easy - especially in the US where some of these identity issues are also highly political. Had an incident at one of our other sites in Oregon in 2017 that was a nightmare to deal with.
I think depending on the state you could be breaking the law if you do t let her access facilities? Consult the law first and maybe call a local lgbt organization to see if they can advise you
Sounds like your org needs some belonging and inclusivity training. If you have already put policies into place, you should reintroduce them. Some generations will need multiple trainings on communication and working together with people of all gender identities.
Please contact your employment counsel. A lot of the responses here are well intentioned but normative does not equal legally required or even protected. There’s a big gap between can and should - especially in these matters. It seems that you know your workforce so this shouldn’t be a surprise. People may pleasantly surprise you but in a state like MO and the workforce you’ve described it’s going to be critical to have legal basis for any accommodations.
We’re all uncomfortable sharing the bathroom with Jessica, because Jessica sucks. We have to share it anyway. I see no difference except I’d bet Robin practices better hygiene
Putting in my two cents as a trans person who went through a similar situation a few years back. I'm transitioning the other direction, and trans issues have more of a spotlight now, so there's some nuance to consider. The big thing for us was carefully crafting the building wide announcement. It was put in similar terms to a service dog announcement - no specifics, no names, just "there is a service dog handler/trans person working in your building. This should not disrupt your work. Here are links to relevant regulations. Please contact HR or your manager if you have questions or concerns. Please don't badger the individual about it." But, yknow, corporate-ized. It was also sent by one of the higher managers instead of HR, to indicate a little more support. This was his choice, but I appreciated it. I chose to wait to switch bathrooms until I had my gender marker changed on my ID, but at the time I lived in a state that made it VERY easy to do so, so that may not be practical for Robin. I also occasionally worked nights or weekends in a mostly empty building, so I had the luxury of making my first trips away from curious eyes. The reality is that Robin needs to use the restroom, and she's only going to get more feminine from here. Eventually it's going to get uncomfortable for the men if she uses their restroom. And while nobody likes to be uncomfortable...discomfort doesn't harm anyone. Robin clearly doesn't want to cause any disturbance and respects other women's space. It just makes sense to let her use the women's room. That said, I would recommend permanently unlocking your gender neutral bathroom, and expanding your gender neutral restroom space if possible. If you have restrooms on multiple floors, for example, you can designate the second floor as all gender neutral, or something to that effect. This creates some buffer space for anyone who feels discomfort, for any reason. As far as the coming out goes, start with a brief meeting with HR, Robin, and her manager. Cover the basics - how to address her, what questions (if any) are welcome, and invite the manager to reach out to HR with any concerns. Then do a larger meeting with Robin's team covering the same information. Then your building announcement. Get feedback at each step and pivot your strategy as needed.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate it.
Not to derail the conversation, but I am genuinely confused about everyone's hang-ups around bathrooms. There are literal cubicals in the ladies. Once you are in one, what the person is doing in theirs is irrelevant. I have also skipped women's toilets lines and ducked into men's toilets loads of times at pubs, clubs and events because it just makes sense to use toilets that are available and no one bats an eye. Maybe it's because I come from a background where unisex toilets are really common, but I just don't see why all the fuss.
The burden to communicate her transition should not be on HR to do. It’s her journey and she needs to communicate to all relevant parties when she feels comfortable You can make reasonable accommodation based on her request and she needs to provide appropriate doctor notes or certificates confirming the status of her transition You are well within your rights to ask her to use the gender neutral bathroom while you are trying to figure this out and if it’s any support, that bathroom can solely be used by her for the time being.
FYI, depending on the state, your advice is straight up unlawful and would land your employer in legal jeopardy. Edit: after a bit of research this is not dependent on state, it is federally unlawful as well
Could you help advise where I can correct myself?
You can't ask for doctors certs. Explicitly illegal in my state. Probably also runs into trouble with HIPAA. You'd need a written consent form. Paper trails now your employer is demanding something you absolutely shouldn't be. edit: case law shows this is considered discriminatory federally as well. And the case was 8 years ago. You can't ask her to use a specific bathroom other than the one that corresponds with her gender identity. This is all over EEOC guidelines, OSHA, etc. Defacto discrimination. And that's just federal, state and city laws could be even more protective. lf other employees have concerns you can ask those individuals to use other restrooms.
Thank you.. this is helpful.. I was coming from an angel that the OP is trying to make the best decision here.. The employee is asking for the employer to make announcement of her transition to the company on her behalf.. whereas she does not feel ready to do it yet herself with her manager etc.. is that ok?? The request to use women bathroom would that not go via the accommodations process? And given that OP is still trying to figure out the best way to accommodate and communicate, an interim provision to use the gender neutral bathroom on mutual understanding is a temporary solve.. would it still be breaking any laws if it’s a mutual temporary arrangement?
No, definitely not by the accommodations process. You don't ask for accommodations to use your bathroom, do you? Best is just not to ask her to do that while you "figure things out" since its already sorted; she already uses the restroom she identifies with by her own statement. There are zero grounds for you to present this as a mutual arrangement. You'd be the one asking her not to when she's clearly already comfortable doing it. Discriminatory treatment is not lawful or ok because it's temporary, nor because the employee agreed to it. I don't see where in OPs post the announcement stuff is. It doesn't make sense to me anyway; if an employee is using a new restroom, they're not closeted. I don't think the law addresses disclosure of whether someone is LGBTQ. Ethically, of course, you shouldn't disclose it unless its at their request, given your employer agrees to such a request. My judgment is that you're better off letting them handle initial disclosures though, barring some unusual circumstances. If its gotten to HR I surmise most relevant colleagues already know (and plenty that aren't relevant). If that's the case an announcement could just be a token gesture of support and inclusivity, which would be good for everyone. Posting antidiscriminatory notices, sending messages, and conducting mandatory inclusivity training also help shore up liability.
Thank you! Thats very insightful
I manage sites in two states that are diametrically opposed in this. What is your company stance on inclusivity?
You've gotten good advice about a lot of things but one thing I haven't seen mentioned is her medical census update. I've had one employee transition in my ~ 20 years of HR experience and she used the company insurance... we had to fight getting her census information updated. Her internal census information was updated to reflect her being female but medical insurance would not allow an adjustment because she had male anatomy - even after reassignment surgery. I personally worked on this and cannot for the life of me recall how this turned out, but please get with your benefits team/broker to discuss how this piece should be/will be handled and keep that open line of communication with Robin.
Great point, thank you!
Change all bathrooms to gender neutral. Full stall walls. Issue resolved without any awkward issues between people.
[удалено]
I'm curious when you would consider Robin's transition to be "complete" enough to use the ladies room?
You’re toeing the line of being sued for gender/ sex discrimination. If this is America, The EEOC and OSHA state that transgender employees have the right to use the bathroom that corresponds with their gender identity in the workplace. By not letting Robin use the women’s restroom she would be discriminating against her and opens the ground for an EEOC claim. Offer the gender neutral bathroom to anyone that’s uncomfortable sharing the restroom.
Thank you for this!
Your comment or post has been removed due to being considered disinformation, misinformation, malicious, illegal, or unhelpful.
Are you suggesting that someone check the genitalia of every employee using the female restroom?
What does "complete" mean? Because whatever line you draw, someone else would draw it elsewhere. This metric doesn't work and discriminates against cis women who are not conventionally effeminate. Robin sincerely identifies as a woman and therefore may use the women's restroom.
You do know that it could be complete now, right? Employees don't have to pass as a woman to be complete in their transition. A lot unpack in your ignorance.
I 100% agree with this and am shocked people are down voting for you saying the discomfort of female employees matters. Women should not have to step aside to allow a man who feels like he’s a woman into a female safe space. The fact that women are told to deal with it is misogynistic. However, there’s the legal aspect. This could be discrimination towards Rob. The company could get sued. This is hr and we must follow the rules and not discriminate. But the women matter too. Thats my personal views talking though. Sorry you got downvoted for speaking up for the women. Clearly they are uncomfortable with this Rob, and their feelings are valid. All they see is a male. I can’t blame them.
[u/Icy-Cupcake 894] (https://old.reddit.com/r/humanresources/comments/1ds7t43/first_gender_transition_in_progresshelp/lb1jb4t/) has a great response, so I'll just link to that here. Any issues that come up in the restroom, regardless of gender assigned at birth, should be addressed in this manner. What is a "female safe space"? Most definitions include some concept of a place that is free from discrimination, criticism, harassment, or any other emotional or physical harm. **Robin's** (you deadnamed and misgendered her) presence is not harassment, nor is it harmful. If someone feels strongly, it appears that there's a gender-neutral restroom available to them. Would it be ok for someone who is racist to have a safe space away from those of the race they hate? Would it be ok to let men who have religious beliefs that think of women as lesser than men the ability to treat women in the workplace in a manner consistent with their religion? Of course not!
There are women out there who have had negative experiences with men. That is why they are uncomfortable with a male coming into a female space. That’s the short answer, but I could go on for days about why female spaces are important to females. Racism has nothing to do with this. Let’s not derail from the subject. This is an issue of sex based rights and women being told to shut up and deal with an obvious male coming into a female space. Her discomfort is 100% valid and should not be ignored. It’s a tough situation with a lot of legality issues regardless. I’ll reiterate my point that I won’t disregard my female employees comfort to affirm a man who “feels” like a woman. Multiple women feeling uncomfortable with one man is not to be ignored. There is a reason for that. Their feelings in this situation matter too and must be addressed. I’ll also add that I don’t know rob and rob doesn’t know me. He doesn’t know of OPs post or any of the comments below. He will be fine.
There are lots of fantastic toolkits available to walk you through recommendations and creating policy where it doesn’t currently exist. [Here is one.](https://www.hrc.org/resources/transitioning-in-the-workplace-a-guide-for-trans-employees) Also, if your org wants to be more affirming overall, you can hire an outside consultant to support HR and the org in making this transition. If you’d like to message me, I can send you some referrals. Finally, you should speak to an attorney who specializes in this to understand the laws as they relate where you’re at. They are wonderfully helpful.
Thanks!
I would look into a workplace transgender consultant. They can help with both internal communication and legal issues to ensure liability is minimized. This has the possibility to take a wrong turn and working with subject matter experts experienced with this issue can be critical. A decade ago I worked with such consultants during an executive transition at a well known financial institution. You only have one opportunity to get it right.
Exactly, this was going to be my rec. Plenty of specialists who can help OP in this space to be inclusive and compliant. I do wonder if given the redness of the business and that these specialists would tend to be coastal if that may cause issue… I would hope not.
Certainly an item of consideration. Not that old rich white guys in finance are the most inclusive, but certainly a very different demographic and things have changed in the macro environment significantly since my experience. I’m sure there are SMEs with this industry / demographic in their experience. Definitely important to ensure the consultant(s) are culturally a fit as well. Due diligence is key.
This really shouldn’t be your burden to bear. It really isn’t an HR issue, at least not yet. But yeah, as others mentioned, talk to the company’s attorney first before communicating anything to anyone.
If they can’t accept that Robin is a woman, who will be using the women’s restroom. I’d not only be following up with an insubordination write up but a stern overview of discrimination.
Given my understanding of the context, I don't think a write up for insubordination is called for. Inclusivity training company-wide is probably a good idea from everyone's perspective though, and I appreciate your perspective there!
[удалено]
No, your own prejudice and ignorance is not a valid reason to disobey the civil rights act or tell someone what their own gender identity is. If you are subordinate at work in ANY other scenario you would receive disciplinary action. “ Federal protections under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) has interpreted Title VII to prohibit employment discrimination based on gender identity, including restroom access (EEOC) (Missouri Labor). Additionally, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has guidelines stating that employers should allow transgender employees to use the restroom that corresponds with their gender identity, as this promotes health and safety in the workplace”
[удалено]
[удалено]
If a woman just started at the company and saw Robin in the bathroom, obviously not knowing Robin as Rob, and this new person would feel uncomfortable with a man in the bathroom, would she give second thought to Robin being in it? Might she just think it's a masculine looking woman?
A professional loooing lumberjack can be a woman, you know.
She’s not “on her way to becoming female,” she already is a female, she’s just correcting a mistake nature made. Stop thinking of her as a man transitioning to a woman, she’s ALWAYS been a woman, it just might have taken her longer and a lot more confusion to realize that. Robin is and always has been a woman. Always. Right now she’s just on the path to aligning what her outside looks like to match what she’s always felt like inside.
I didn’t mean to offend. I’m merely communicating the process the way it was communicated to us BY ROBIN. You are making assumptions. I am using wording from the person experiencing a transition, who is telling her story as she has experienced it, not making my own assumptions. Your judgment of me is unwarranted.
I wasn’t judging, sincerely, I was trying to point out that something said (that wasn’t attributed to the person going through the transition) could lead to problematic viewpoints of Robin and what she’s dealing with. As someone who has transitioned, I know how important the use of language can be when people refer to us and how it affects the way they treat us going forward. I’m sorry I wasn’t more clear or soft about it, it’s obvious you care about Robin and the other employees, which is really appreciated by those of us who face these situations.
And I didn’t mean to be harsh. I’m protective of Robin - I am careful to use words and the narrative she has used so I don’t misrepresent her experience is all. Have a great evening.
A biological man should not be using a women's restroom!!!! This is crazy. Why do women have to put up with this? We fought so hard for women's rights just for men to identify as women now and take over our spaces. This is crazy.