A genocide isn't tracked by just numbers. Its about the targeted violence in efforts to completely destroy a community, and any community no matter how big or small can be the victim of genocide.
The U.S., like it or not, *absolutely* fits that bill when it came to the governments treatment of the Natives.
My man, the US and Vietnam are quite close. Hell more than six-in-ten of the generation that was in the Vietnam war actually approves of America. This is due to relations smoothing out over time but also a shared hatred of China. Fun fact, China likes having boarder skirmishes and trying to invade everyone. Yeah, I think China is the bigger asshole.
And because sourcing is very important: here’s that six-in-ten claim and the younger generations approve even more and want a free market economy, which shows as they shifted from a command to mixed one slowly but surely
[source](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/04/30/vietnamese-see-u-s-as-key-ally/)
My guy, that doesn’t mean anything. They haven’t apologized to the victims, who I don’t think care that their governments happen to have good diplomatic relations today when they’re dying from diseases they contracted 60 years ago. Do you mean to say that border skirmishes and disputes are worse than poisoning an entire generation, and not even acknowledging them? Of course, ‘Nam(and Laos included) is only one incident. Here’s a mere *[summery](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/05/26/the-things-america-hasnt-apologized-for/)* of the US committing war crimes, supporting bloody coups and fascist regimes in the name of “democracy”. I’m not saying China is innocent either, but the suffering the US has caused is far more widespread and has been going on for a century when the worst of what China did was under one dictator. And again China isn’t perfect, but since then, [they’ve lifted almost a billion people out of extreme poverty.](https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202203/1257339.shtml)
That’s an insane chuck of the world population.
My guy, I literally just said it’s also what the people believe too. Did you not hear that most of the generation that you said was poisoned is pro USA? Yes what we did was bad but it’s water under the bridge, shit I feel bad that anyone got involved. I’m saying in the here and now which China is being hyper aggressive
Then again, when someone like Churchill (who was so polarizing he was defeated in the polls mere months after his WWII victory) is your moral compass specifically about on imperialism and relationships with minorities/non whites, well…
As if another piece of garbage oppressor is an alternative. Lame, but a good glimpse into such narrow view on this.
Edit: the one typo others clung on to as a desperate copout.
Honestly, I never understood the obsession that Americans have with Russia (or formerly the Soviet Union) and China. The thing is that it's hypocritical about how they talk about nationality and ethnicity in these places and their own homeland.
Americans claim that the former Soviet Union was a "prison of nations", basically an empire which held different nations captive, and imposed Russian on them. The same language is used in China, where all non Chinese ethnicities are supposedly made to be more Chinese. The themes of Russification and Sinicization are very strong in Western academia. The idea where Russia and China need to be balkanised and dissolutioned like the USSR did to "liberate" minority nations is very strong too.
And keep in mind, a lot of these criticisms are fair, and Russia and China today are actually absolutely terrible, totalitarian regimes.
But my point was rather the hypocrisy and lack of reciprocity in these criticisms.
The USA isn't even officially multi ethnic. Their US states don't even represent any specific ethnic groups for the most part, unlike Soviet or Russian republics and Chinese autonomous oblasts. The only thing that the indigenous national minorities have are the small Indian reservations, which are very poor, and their language and culture often isn't even that developed there, even less so in the rest of the country.
Like, the USSR for example was made up of 15 countries with each representing its own nationality. Meanwhile, in the US, the Native American reservations aren't even shown separetely from states on maps, even less so as proper members of the American federation.
It's pretty obvious that Navajo, Cherokee, Lakota, Dene, etc, are largely much, MUCH less spoken than Ukrainian, Kazakh, Tatar, Chechen, etc were in the Soviet Union.
There aren't many movies, books or songs created in these languages either, they seem often pretty non existant even in reservations, even more so in US states (where's Lakota language in South Dakota?)
And when people talk about the supposed "huge diversity" of the United States, it's almost always the settlers and the recent immigrants. Which are nice too, but they have their own homelands across the globe too. And the fact that this discourse pretty often puts the First Nations completely under the rug is so offensive, especially when you look at the same American discourse about Russia and China.
Therefore, the idea according to which these two are inherently "empires", that they should be balkanised, and that their dissolution would be a net positive, like what they believe the dissolution of the USSR was. But why shoudn't their country be? Especially more along Native American ethnic lines, not state ones.
Plus, fun fact, if the USA actually WANTED to build a plurinational state that actively supports the Indigenous identities, it woud've actually be possible. You just need ressources and ideology. In Russia, to this day, the Jewish Autonomous Oblast supports the Yiddish language, even when no one speaks there it anymore.
Russia literally genocided all those areas and replaced them with Russians lol.
Do you even know what Russification is? Are you a liar or just ignorant?
Russia literally genocided all those areas and replaced them with Russians lol.
Do you even know what Russification is? Are you a liar or just ignorant?
The Soviet Union wasn't made solely of Russia. It was a federation made up of 15 members and actually ruled by people of very different nationalities. Lenin was of Jewish descent, while Stalin a Georgian. Both what the West would consider as being "racial minorities". Khruschev was Ukrainian as well.
If we compare it to the United States, it had 46 presidents, of which 95% were White Americans. Only ONE was of a racial minority group. And none are from a group who existed in the country prior to European colonization. So in this regard, the Soviet Union was much more diverse and representative in its leadership than the USA. I haven't mentioned the UK or other Western countries, but their leadership has generally been pretty homogeneous as well.
In any cases, even if your claims were true, it wouldn't really be "Russians" committing genocide, but also Georgians, Ukrainians, Jews, etc. Solely attributing it to Russians is not based on anything factual realities about history but rather on modern Eastern European nationalist movements.
Then why did it have to conquer the nations under it's jackboot? Why did they ignore their desire for independence? Why did they deport residents of these nations and replace them with Russians?
You're so dishonest, it's enraging. Fuck yourself.
They unfortunately did that, I won't deny it, especially with the baltic states. However, the vast majority of states actually voted to preserve the Soviet Union in the 80s.
And also, aren't you from America? You're talking about "conquering nations under its jackboot"? It characterises America much, MUCH more than the USSR.
Indigenous First Nations were conquered, colonized and occupied. To a point where they have very little land left and are a very small and impoverished minority today. The Soviet Union at least gave the opportunity for member states to declare independence. But in the United States, it would be even logistically impossible for the Native Americans to declare independence in pre colonial borders, because of how much America fucked them over.
We fell off. A couple months ago we just started getting spammed by tankies, I dunno what happened, I think abyssal spam opened the door to it.
Edit: Yeah there's a shit ton of genocide denial from tankies in *this comment section right now.*
God, if only. Most leftists where I'm at are chill (*I'm* a leftist, hell, albeit a moderate and much more reform-focused one), but I've always gotta brace myself when meeting new people in case they start spouting effectively fascist talking points while calling themselves a demsoc.
"Tankie" is a term for authoritarian communists, people who will blindly defend any government that is anti-America and deny any atrocity committed by a country that calls itself socialist. Like people who deny the various genocides committed by the USSR or China, or like to pretend that North Korea is actually awesome and free.
The craziest thing is that their policies go so far Left that it often times sides with the far right. A lot of them oppose Ukraine's defense and believe Russia has genuine claims to Ukraine for example. Obviously for different reasons than the far right but it's surprising how often these views align.
Yah that’s fascinating.
Makes you think of horseshoe theory. It’s unpopular but it makes a lot of sense
Link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
That’s because they’re so naively taken by Soviet nostalgia they don’t even realize what they mainly actually support is Russian imperialism, and by that I mean both pre USSR, Soviet and Putin’s imperialism. It makes no sense from an ideological perspective, it’s purely fetishism. And I say that not justifying it like that other subgroup (the communist “purists”) that thinks similarly but believes the USSR and China aren’t/weren’t “purely or truly communist”.
Those people are in as much denial as this op, simply unable to see our own 🇺🇸 shameful past and present on imperialism and subjugation of non white people both directly or through proxies.
It’s kind of lost its meaning, liberals use it to insult anything further left than DemSocs. But I agree that it’s just for the idiots who call themselves socialists/communists but defend any anti-American government no matter what. That’s why I find it hard to fit in with many ML communities
Well, it's literally derived from people who supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956 (with tanks, hence "tankies"). As such, I think it's also pretty fair to designate any and all Marxism-Leninism-derived schools of thought as "tankie." That's just... what it is. The Soviet Union was shit.
It’s more complicated than that. I support the fact that the [USSR had high quality universal healthcare and education](https://youtu.be/sjI8jwn0Upo?si=hTiymke3qMMc752H), but not 1956. For China, I support the fact that they lifted nearly a [billion people out of extreme poverty](https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202203/1257339.shtml) but not the fact that they occupy Tibet. Honestly the hope for a more peaceful and democratic USSR was thrown out the window when Stalin came in, should have been Trotsky.
Ideology does a lot of things, though. India transitioned to a social market economy in 1991 and since then has *also* lifted nearly a billion people out of (global) poverty, with the most rapid decreases happening recently under the increasingly oppressive BJP. LBJ's "war on poverty" halved the US poverty rate in the 60s in just one administration... as Vietnam was ongoing. Israel has one of the most effective and efficient universal healthcare systems on earth.
Yet in the US it wasn’t free even with insurance. People were able to graduate from top universities for free, people were able to be treated by the best doctors in the Union for free. For the average middle class family the US was better because they could afford the luxuries, but if I’m poor you bet it’d rather have all my basic needs fully covered than have the chance to buy a coke and blue jeans.
Then why did working class Americans live far longer and have far more wealth, a much higher quality of life.
You are clueless if you think anyone lived better in the USSR. It was shit.
Trotsky was as bloody and as close minded on imposing Soviet doctrine at any cost as Stalin. His acts and the backstabbing of those who fought alongside the bolsheviks in Ukraine epitomize that. He was ruthless and vengeful, with even less personal charisma than Stalin without the state propaganda.
Tankies defending countries that are themselves heavily influenced by American ways of doing business? At least the Soviets had an ideology that presented an alternative to capitalist kleptocracy (even if they didn't have the compute to plan an entire economy) and that forced capitalist countries like Sweden and South Korea to invest in their workforces.
Yeah I dunno. China, North Korea, Russia, Iran. Half of the dictatorships they defend don't even remotely pretend to be communist. It's just "America Bad."
At the very least, you should acknowledge that Russia and China have elites that are heavily intertwined with American/Western elites and have adopted many of the worst aspects of American capitalism. It's not like the USSR, which - while still a deeply flawed regime - at least presented an ideologically coherent alternative to the powers that be.
You do realize the USSR was kind of committing genocide as well like I don't really think we should be defending it?
How is this a hot take that genocide is bad
That would be weird world. So happy I don't live there. To improve your scenario it would make more sense of the conquered Korea and Vietnam along with Nepal, Bhutan and Mongolia
Multiethnic?
It’s over 92% Han Chinese, and the percentage is increasing every year.
Not to mention they send ethnic minorities to “reeducation” camps.
Within 10-20 years it’ll be a full ethnostate.
“Suppressed minorities” is putting it lightly.
The next holocaust will be in Asia, and we already know who the next Nazi Germany is.
Canada? its canada right... I mean they were giving a actual nazi a standing ovation, and the long knifed that trucker protest real good... and the whole euthanizing the mentally infirm thing.
This does describe America somewhat but it definitely describes China more. Am I biased as an American? Perhaps but at least we haven’t killed more than 100 million people. Actually I don’t know. Stop making me question this 😡.
From a book which was admitted to be bullshit by a couple of the people who wrote it. They included numbers from the holocaust and other silly things. They were essentially trying to stretch the truth to get to 100m by any means possible.
imagine you are so far left, you come out supporting an ethno-nationalist (han ethnicity), colonialist (africa, south east asia etc.), anti-LGBTQ+, genocidal (uyghur concentration camps), state capitalist, worker exploiting, warmongering etc regime.
i just straight up no longer believe tankies are left wing. yalll are just Nazbols in denial.
"nuanced"
considering they are the largest exploiter of workers, destroyers of the environment, biggest contributor to climate change, one of the most racist master race cultures (han supremacy), has no social nets for the less fortunate, the by several magnitudes highest rate/absolute numbers in executions worldwide (more than the entire rest combined), one of the most extreme forms of government surveillance etc that feels somewhat understated.
They also lifted nearly a billion people out of poverty in 40 years, meeting the UN goal and single-handedly accounting for 75% of global poverty reduction. I’m not saying that this detail excuses China, just that it’s not black and white.
the great leap forward was the biggest human catastrophe in the history of the species, there has never been a bigger mass death event, exlipsing even the shoa.
ofc you can make progress if you burn literal millions of human beings as fuel for it. to claim this was somehow for the betterment of the very people that have been used as said fuel sounds somewhat cruel to me.
Not to downplay it, but that has nothing to do either with my point.
The Great Leap Forward has nothing to do with the progress of the past 40 years. It was a result of the actions of a single person. Again, not to downplay it, but 45 million people died then and in the last 40 years over 850 million people have been lifted from extreme poverty. At one point that was 1/5 of the world; which is absolutely insane.
Look, I agree China is an imperialistic nation which supresses minorities, but the US is also a very racist imperialistic nation so acting as if the US was that diferent is dumb
I think calling the US very racist I a bit of an overreaction. Sure, there is a portion of the population that is openly racist and a sizeable portion is not so blatant but still racist, but compared to countries outside the (traditional interpretation of the) west, it’s a beacon of equality. A black president ruled for eight years. There’s discrimination but it’s not on the same scale as China of Russia or many other countries. Of course, I’m not saying it’s perfect, or even fully acceptable, but compared to China it definitely is “that different“.
Sorry if I’m not the most educated on the subject as I’m from neither country, but do you have any ideas on how I could improve my understanding of the state of racism, minority rights and cultural discrimination in the USA or PRC? Genuine question BTW, I would like to learn more about it.
Where people are sent after they commit crime.
Did America put all their Muslims in concentration camps for forced reeducation? Nope lol.
Cope harder fascist.
Oh, there were several, actually. Xinjiang was a hotbed for numerous terrorist activities at that time. The presence of armed groups in the area committing terror attacks is a fact corroborated by multiple nations.
Stop throwing around the word 'fascist' at me. You're a Joe Rogan disciple—far closer to fascism than I could ever be. Considering your track record, you're likely some white American who can't seem to drill through your thick, ignorant skull that America isn't exactly a saint when it comes to racial issues, barely any better than China.
Until the 1960, in the US the black population couldnt vote. Migrants lives are seen as worthless by almost half the population. Its definitely very racist
And yet the "China & Russia are the most evil empires in history" party in this thread keep (appropriately) mentioning history.
As Faulkner (& CRT) tell us, "The past is never dead. It's not even past."
Imperialist Scum! How dare you insult the Glorious, true nation of the People’s Republic of China! We have removed 10000 social credit points from your PRC Worker’s account! You will be sent to the Worker’s Re-education Camp effective immediately! Forever live the CCP! Forever live Glorious Leader Xi Xingping!🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳
This is the thing that America, Russia, and China have in common.
But I happen to live in the American one and it's best interests therefore are my best interests overall and the other two can pound sand.
Besides, at least I can criticize my government freely here. Good luck with that in China or Russia.
my brother in christ that is literally a pure description of the us like word for word holy shit, i literally couldnt have described it better and more concisely.
It’s never that simple. I live in New York, and yeah it’s one of the most diverse and accepting cities in the US, but minorities are still being stabbed and pushed into the track.
Well, compared to the Chinese tactic of rounding them up for forced reeducation and subjecting them to rape and abuse, yes, America is literally a paragon of human rights for minorites lol.
Comparing a flawed democracy with a fascist ethno-state.
You haven’t linked any sources for subjugating them to rape and abuse, but you’re comparing two very different things. In Chinese cities that never happens, it’s safe to walk alone at night without fearing you’ll be the next victim of a hate crime. If you’re an ethnic minority in one of China’s occupied regions and don’t like the CPC well yes, it’s an entirely different story. I’m just saying that the US is far from a haven, I guess the difference is that in China it’s the government committing “hate crimes” and in America is the civilians.
….not that the US has never rounded up people and put them in camps, they most certainly have
Depends who you ask. Liberals will tell you it’s communists. I’ll tell you that it’s communists who take it too far, the ones that defend any “anti-american” country like North Korea.
Plutocracy? China is on earth dumbass
Got em
Pluto is a planet-Jerry smith
No.
That’s what mainstream media would have you believe.
Goddamn commie libfarts won’t let me mine myself some authentic Plutonian plutonium because of woke “climate changeussy” nonsense 😤😵💫
Maybe the real multiethnic imperialist plutocracy were the minorities we suppressed along the way
I will not sit here passively and let you say such LIES about Vietnam😤
What are you gonna do about it
Another war?
Just had one at lunch, I’m stuffed thank you
Pronounced NAM’ or Indochina.
That is not America, please retake geography
“Erm aktualey!”☝️🤓
Yeah is the multiethnic imperialist plutocracy suppressor of minorities states of America
also known as Mipsomsoa.
Nah, this is America if it were a multiethnic imperialist plutocracy that suppressed minorities
Nah, America is a multiethnic imperialist plutocracy that suppresses minorities
i mean like, not defending china at all, but america is also that
I like to think we’re both pieces of shit
the question is who’s the bigger piece of shit—my money’s on china
I mean at least the US doesn’t lie about the bad shit we’ve done
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm idk about that bro lol, we do, maybe less blatantly, but we do.
Besides the genocide the US did
Killing 30k isn't a genocide. Read up on what that word means kid.
A genocide isn't tracked by just numbers. Its about the targeted violence in efforts to completely destroy a community, and any community no matter how big or small can be the victim of genocide. The U.S., like it or not, *absolutely* fits that bill when it came to the governments treatment of the Natives.
And the genocide were currently doing
Hey it’s just our *money* not us directly /s
No that’s Canada.
Нууууу, как бы тебе сказать
I didn’t realize that the US apologized for Vietnam
My man, the US and Vietnam are quite close. Hell more than six-in-ten of the generation that was in the Vietnam war actually approves of America. This is due to relations smoothing out over time but also a shared hatred of China. Fun fact, China likes having boarder skirmishes and trying to invade everyone. Yeah, I think China is the bigger asshole. And because sourcing is very important: here’s that six-in-ten claim and the younger generations approve even more and want a free market economy, which shows as they shifted from a command to mixed one slowly but surely [source](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/04/30/vietnamese-see-u-s-as-key-ally/)
My guy, that doesn’t mean anything. They haven’t apologized to the victims, who I don’t think care that their governments happen to have good diplomatic relations today when they’re dying from diseases they contracted 60 years ago. Do you mean to say that border skirmishes and disputes are worse than poisoning an entire generation, and not even acknowledging them? Of course, ‘Nam(and Laos included) is only one incident. Here’s a mere *[summery](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/05/26/the-things-america-hasnt-apologized-for/)* of the US committing war crimes, supporting bloody coups and fascist regimes in the name of “democracy”. I’m not saying China is innocent either, but the suffering the US has caused is far more widespread and has been going on for a century when the worst of what China did was under one dictator. And again China isn’t perfect, but since then, [they’ve lifted almost a billion people out of extreme poverty.](https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202203/1257339.shtml) That’s an insane chuck of the world population.
My guy, I literally just said it’s also what the people believe too. Did you not hear that most of the generation that you said was poisoned is pro USA? Yes what we did was bad but it’s water under the bridge, shit I feel bad that anyone got involved. I’m saying in the here and now which China is being hyper aggressive
Yea I mean at least the US doesn't have concentration camps for our minorities🤷♂️
Not anymore…
Ahh very true. Should've worded it better lol
Perhaps I was reaching a bit, you didn’t say hasn’t or hasn’t had.
Based
I take the Winston Churchill attitude - America is the worst country, except for all the others
Then again, when someone like Churchill (who was so polarizing he was defeated in the polls mere months after his WWII victory) is your moral compass specifically about on imperialism and relationships with minorities/non whites, well…
Who’s your moral compass? Mao? Lenin?
As if another piece of garbage oppressor is an alternative. Lame, but a good glimpse into such narrow view on this. Edit: the one typo others clung on to as a desperate copout.
never heard of him
They really called their city Cumming
昆明市
Jokes on you! The US is already essentially a plutocracy!
? the united states is on earth silly
Lib plz.
Tankie plz.
Zionist plz.
Cheezburber plz
European Zionist plz
Honestly, I never understood the obsession that Americans have with Russia (or formerly the Soviet Union) and China. The thing is that it's hypocritical about how they talk about nationality and ethnicity in these places and their own homeland. Americans claim that the former Soviet Union was a "prison of nations", basically an empire which held different nations captive, and imposed Russian on them. The same language is used in China, where all non Chinese ethnicities are supposedly made to be more Chinese. The themes of Russification and Sinicization are very strong in Western academia. The idea where Russia and China need to be balkanised and dissolutioned like the USSR did to "liberate" minority nations is very strong too. And keep in mind, a lot of these criticisms are fair, and Russia and China today are actually absolutely terrible, totalitarian regimes. But my point was rather the hypocrisy and lack of reciprocity in these criticisms. The USA isn't even officially multi ethnic. Their US states don't even represent any specific ethnic groups for the most part, unlike Soviet or Russian republics and Chinese autonomous oblasts. The only thing that the indigenous national minorities have are the small Indian reservations, which are very poor, and their language and culture often isn't even that developed there, even less so in the rest of the country. Like, the USSR for example was made up of 15 countries with each representing its own nationality. Meanwhile, in the US, the Native American reservations aren't even shown separetely from states on maps, even less so as proper members of the American federation. It's pretty obvious that Navajo, Cherokee, Lakota, Dene, etc, are largely much, MUCH less spoken than Ukrainian, Kazakh, Tatar, Chechen, etc were in the Soviet Union. There aren't many movies, books or songs created in these languages either, they seem often pretty non existant even in reservations, even more so in US states (where's Lakota language in South Dakota?) And when people talk about the supposed "huge diversity" of the United States, it's almost always the settlers and the recent immigrants. Which are nice too, but they have their own homelands across the globe too. And the fact that this discourse pretty often puts the First Nations completely under the rug is so offensive, especially when you look at the same American discourse about Russia and China. Therefore, the idea according to which these two are inherently "empires", that they should be balkanised, and that their dissolution would be a net positive, like what they believe the dissolution of the USSR was. But why shoudn't their country be? Especially more along Native American ethnic lines, not state ones. Plus, fun fact, if the USA actually WANTED to build a plurinational state that actively supports the Indigenous identities, it woud've actually be possible. You just need ressources and ideology. In Russia, to this day, the Jewish Autonomous Oblast supports the Yiddish language, even when no one speaks there it anymore.
I ain’t reading all that, sorry that happened or happy it did 🙏
Russia literally genocided all those areas and replaced them with Russians lol. Do you even know what Russification is? Are you a liar or just ignorant?
Russia literally genocided all those areas and replaced them with Russians lol. Do you even know what Russification is? Are you a liar or just ignorant?
The Soviet Union wasn't made solely of Russia. It was a federation made up of 15 members and actually ruled by people of very different nationalities. Lenin was of Jewish descent, while Stalin a Georgian. Both what the West would consider as being "racial minorities". Khruschev was Ukrainian as well. If we compare it to the United States, it had 46 presidents, of which 95% were White Americans. Only ONE was of a racial minority group. And none are from a group who existed in the country prior to European colonization. So in this regard, the Soviet Union was much more diverse and representative in its leadership than the USA. I haven't mentioned the UK or other Western countries, but their leadership has generally been pretty homogeneous as well. In any cases, even if your claims were true, it wouldn't really be "Russians" committing genocide, but also Georgians, Ukrainians, Jews, etc. Solely attributing it to Russians is not based on anything factual realities about history but rather on modern Eastern European nationalist movements.
Then why did it have to conquer the nations under it's jackboot? Why did they ignore their desire for independence? Why did they deport residents of these nations and replace them with Russians? You're so dishonest, it's enraging. Fuck yourself.
They unfortunately did that, I won't deny it, especially with the baltic states. However, the vast majority of states actually voted to preserve the Soviet Union in the 80s. And also, aren't you from America? You're talking about "conquering nations under its jackboot"? It characterises America much, MUCH more than the USSR. Indigenous First Nations were conquered, colonized and occupied. To a point where they have very little land left and are a very small and impoverished minority today. The Soviet Union at least gave the opportunity for member states to declare independence. But in the United States, it would be even logistically impossible for the Native Americans to declare independence in pre colonial borders, because of how much America fucked them over.
You could’ve shown a map of the US, too. Or Russia, or any other historical world power. Money makes the world go round, or whatever.
Capitalism :(
Holy damn, didn't realize this subreddit is such shithole to the point that the US being lesser evil is a controversial take
We fell off. A couple months ago we just started getting spammed by tankies, I dunno what happened, I think abyssal spam opened the door to it. Edit: Yeah there's a shit ton of genocide denial from tankies in *this comment section right now.*
Yep. Thank god these people don’t exist IRL
God, if only. Most leftists where I'm at are chill (*I'm* a leftist, hell, albeit a moderate and much more reform-focused one), but I've always gotta brace myself when meeting new people in case they start spouting effectively fascist talking points while calling themselves a demsoc.
What’s a Tankies ?
"Tankie" is a term for authoritarian communists, people who will blindly defend any government that is anti-America and deny any atrocity committed by a country that calls itself socialist. Like people who deny the various genocides committed by the USSR or China, or like to pretend that North Korea is actually awesome and free.
Got it thank you
The craziest thing is that their policies go so far Left that it often times sides with the far right. A lot of them oppose Ukraine's defense and believe Russia has genuine claims to Ukraine for example. Obviously for different reasons than the far right but it's surprising how often these views align.
Yah that’s fascinating. Makes you think of horseshoe theory. It’s unpopular but it makes a lot of sense Link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory
That’s because they’re so naively taken by Soviet nostalgia they don’t even realize what they mainly actually support is Russian imperialism, and by that I mean both pre USSR, Soviet and Putin’s imperialism. It makes no sense from an ideological perspective, it’s purely fetishism. And I say that not justifying it like that other subgroup (the communist “purists”) that thinks similarly but believes the USSR and China aren’t/weren’t “purely or truly communist”. Those people are in as much denial as this op, simply unable to see our own 🇺🇸 shameful past and present on imperialism and subjugation of non white people both directly or through proxies.
It’s kind of lost its meaning, liberals use it to insult anything further left than DemSocs. But I agree that it’s just for the idiots who call themselves socialists/communists but defend any anti-American government no matter what. That’s why I find it hard to fit in with many ML communities
Well, it's literally derived from people who supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956 (with tanks, hence "tankies"). As such, I think it's also pretty fair to designate any and all Marxism-Leninism-derived schools of thought as "tankie." That's just... what it is. The Soviet Union was shit.
It’s more complicated than that. I support the fact that the [USSR had high quality universal healthcare and education](https://youtu.be/sjI8jwn0Upo?si=hTiymke3qMMc752H), but not 1956. For China, I support the fact that they lifted nearly a [billion people out of extreme poverty](https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202203/1257339.shtml) but not the fact that they occupy Tibet. Honestly the hope for a more peaceful and democratic USSR was thrown out the window when Stalin came in, should have been Trotsky.
Ideology does a lot of things, though. India transitioned to a social market economy in 1991 and since then has *also* lifted nearly a billion people out of (global) poverty, with the most rapid decreases happening recently under the increasingly oppressive BJP. LBJ's "war on poverty" halved the US poverty rate in the 60s in just one administration... as Vietnam was ongoing. Israel has one of the most effective and efficient universal healthcare systems on earth.
The USA had better education and healthcare. See higher expected life expectancy. See quality of life. The USSR was shit. Waaay shitter than America.
The USA had better education and healthcare. See higher expected life expectancy. See quality of life. The USSR was shit. Waaay shitter than America.
Yet in the US it wasn’t free even with insurance. People were able to graduate from top universities for free, people were able to be treated by the best doctors in the Union for free. For the average middle class family the US was better because they could afford the luxuries, but if I’m poor you bet it’d rather have all my basic needs fully covered than have the chance to buy a coke and blue jeans.
Then why did working class Americans live far longer and have far more wealth, a much higher quality of life. You are clueless if you think anyone lived better in the USSR. It was shit.
Trotsky was as bloody and as close minded on imposing Soviet doctrine at any cost as Stalin. His acts and the backstabbing of those who fought alongside the bolsheviks in Ukraine epitomize that. He was ruthless and vengeful, with even less personal charisma than Stalin without the state propaganda.
Tankies defending countries that are themselves heavily influenced by American ways of doing business? At least the Soviets had an ideology that presented an alternative to capitalist kleptocracy (even if they didn't have the compute to plan an entire economy) and that forced capitalist countries like Sweden and South Korea to invest in their workforces.
Yeah I dunno. China, North Korea, Russia, Iran. Half of the dictatorships they defend don't even remotely pretend to be communist. It's just "America Bad."
Imo Cuba is the only legitimately left-wing regime in the UN. Which is a bummer.
The wumaos are out tonight lol
Mfw the nation that has invaded, bombed and sabotaged dozens of countries in the past 70 years is a lesser evil than the one that hasn't.
It’s the tankie way. Absolutely the most annoying group on Reddit since the Nazis moved to Truth Social lol
The US may be the least evil of the (potential) super powers, but it's the only one I have any influence over at all, so it gets most of my criticism
At the very least, you should acknowledge that Russia and China have elites that are heavily intertwined with American/Western elites and have adopted many of the worst aspects of American capitalism. It's not like the USSR, which - while still a deeply flawed regime - at least presented an ideologically coherent alternative to the powers that be.
You do realize the USSR was kind of committing genocide as well like I don't really think we should be defending it? How is this a hot take that genocide is bad
The U.S. is literally the most evil lmao.
tbh you could’ve just shown us a map of the us china and russia also work
Oh so "imaginary maps" isn't fictional maps, its just when you look at a real map and imagine a bunch of fake bullshit about it?
Free Tibet.
tibet has already been freed from slavery. also free aztlán, free puerto rico, free hawaii, free your mother from your uglyass
I don’t see Ohio
[ Removed by Reddit ]
That would be weird world. So happy I don't live there. To improve your scenario it would make more sense of the conquered Korea and Vietnam along with Nepal, Bhutan and Mongolia
Nothing says being a cj sub like doing the exact same thing the main sub does
What you sayin bout ma boi greater inner Mongolia
Least obvious CIA mouthpiece
The damn CIA trying to brainwash r\imaginarymapscj users by posting shitty memes!
Hey, at least they send fraudulent CEOs to jail
And their southern neighbor executed them 🥰
\*If they don’t comply with The Party’s beliefs
It's a good reason to execute a billionaire (it's really hard to find a bad reason)
death to america
Based
Multiethnic? It’s over 92% Han Chinese, and the percentage is increasing every year. Not to mention they send ethnic minorities to “reeducation” camps. Within 10-20 years it’ll be a full ethnostate. “Suppressed minorities” is putting it lightly. The next holocaust will be in Asia, and we already know who the next Nazi Germany is.
Canada? its canada right... I mean they were giving a actual nazi a standing ovation, and the long knifed that trucker protest real good... and the whole euthanizing the mentally infirm thing.
What is all of this hate on west taiwan doing here
Don’t disrespect North Vietnam.
This does describe America somewhat but it definitely describes China more. Am I biased as an American? Perhaps but at least we haven’t killed more than 100 million people. Actually I don’t know. Stop making me question this 😡.
Oh yes, the made up 100m dead statistic. Classic. You’re right America has killed a lot more.
Tbh I don’t even know where it comes from.
From a book which was admitted to be bullshit by a couple of the people who wrote it. They included numbers from the holocaust and other silly things. They were essentially trying to stretch the truth to get to 100m by any means possible.
Haha, nope. Mao killed more people than any other human in history. Cope harder, red fash.
Yeah or just be ignorant and read nothing and just spout lies to make yourself feel better. What a moronic take.
Keep on coping, fascist.
It comes from the Black Book of Communism. Even the authors themselves admitted that they rounded everything to come to 100 million
💀💀💀
"if"
China bad! Where’s my upvotes
America bad!
Jesus Christ, I'm suffocating in the amount of copium the tankies in here are releasing.
imagine you are so far left, you come out supporting an ethno-nationalist (han ethnicity), colonialist (africa, south east asia etc.), anti-LGBTQ+, genocidal (uyghur concentration camps), state capitalist, worker exploiting, warmongering etc regime. i just straight up no longer believe tankies are left wing. yalll are just Nazbols in denial.
To an extent I agree. I think China is nuanced but so many supposed socialists/communists defend things that go against everything leftism stajdsnfor
"nuanced" considering they are the largest exploiter of workers, destroyers of the environment, biggest contributor to climate change, one of the most racist master race cultures (han supremacy), has no social nets for the less fortunate, the by several magnitudes highest rate/absolute numbers in executions worldwide (more than the entire rest combined), one of the most extreme forms of government surveillance etc that feels somewhat understated.
They also lifted nearly a billion people out of poverty in 40 years, meeting the UN goal and single-handedly accounting for 75% of global poverty reduction. I’m not saying that this detail excuses China, just that it’s not black and white.
the great leap forward was the biggest human catastrophe in the history of the species, there has never been a bigger mass death event, exlipsing even the shoa. ofc you can make progress if you burn literal millions of human beings as fuel for it. to claim this was somehow for the betterment of the very people that have been used as said fuel sounds somewhat cruel to me.
Not to downplay it, but that has nothing to do either with my point. The Great Leap Forward has nothing to do with the progress of the past 40 years. It was a result of the actions of a single person. Again, not to downplay it, but 45 million people died then and in the last 40 years over 850 million people have been lifted from extreme poverty. At one point that was 1/5 of the world; which is absolutely insane.
Look, I agree China is an imperialistic nation which supresses minorities, but the US is also a very racist imperialistic nation so acting as if the US was that diferent is dumb
I think calling the US very racist I a bit of an overreaction. Sure, there is a portion of the population that is openly racist and a sizeable portion is not so blatant but still racist, but compared to countries outside the (traditional interpretation of the) west, it’s a beacon of equality. A black president ruled for eight years. There’s discrimination but it’s not on the same scale as China of Russia or many other countries. Of course, I’m not saying it’s perfect, or even fully acceptable, but compared to China it definitely is “that different“.
White people are so funny
Sorry if I’m not the most educated on the subject as I’m from neither country, but do you have any ideas on how I could improve my understanding of the state of racism, minority rights and cultural discrimination in the USA or PRC? Genuine question BTW, I would like to learn more about it.
Before I give you suggestions are you European as that would make it easy for me to give you an off ramp.
Yeah. 😁
"Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America" by Ibram X. Kendi
Terrible book, lol.
Asians funnier. Just ask Steven He.
China is an ethno-state which abuses it's minorities on the industrial scale. Where are all the reeducation camps in America?
Nah in the us their called prisons where minorities who cause problems are given exorbitant sentences.
Where people are sent after they commit crime. Did America put all their Muslims in concentration camps for forced reeducation? Nope lol. Cope harder fascist.
China didn’t put all there Muslims in re-education either. Armed Rebellion is a crime.
There was no armed rebellion. Just a single terror attack. Fucking fascist.
Oh, there were several, actually. Xinjiang was a hotbed for numerous terrorist activities at that time. The presence of armed groups in the area committing terror attacks is a fact corroborated by multiple nations. Stop throwing around the word 'fascist' at me. You're a Joe Rogan disciple—far closer to fascism than I could ever be. Considering your track record, you're likely some white American who can't seem to drill through your thick, ignorant skull that America isn't exactly a saint when it comes to racial issues, barely any better than China.
So if the US rounded up all Muslim citizens for rededucation after 9/11 you wouldn't call it fascism? Give me a fucking break you dishonest cretin.
Until the 1960, in the US the black population couldnt vote. Migrants lives are seen as worthless by almost half the population. Its definitely very racist
Luckily it’s not the 1960s?
And yet the "China & Russia are the most evil empires in history" party in this thread keep (appropriately) mentioning history. As Faulkner (& CRT) tell us, "The past is never dead. It's not even past."
West coast looks like it would be inhospitable now.
America and India do have a lot in common…
These mfs try to be Usa in Asia
DAMN MONGOLIANS
You should have used a normal usa map. Description is pretty apt for that.
That’s not America!
I would argue China isn’t a plutocracy specifically, since it’s not controlled by the rich. It’s an oligarchy, it’s controlled by the party elite.
Idk that sounds like muricah
Truth
Isn't that West Taiwan?
???? Is that not literally America????
Imperialist Scum! How dare you insult the Glorious, true nation of the People’s Republic of China! We have removed 10000 social credit points from your PRC Worker’s account! You will be sent to the Worker’s Re-education Camp effective immediately! Forever live the CCP! Forever live Glorious Leader Xi Xingping!🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳
Do you have issues with mainland Taiwan?
This comment section reminds me of why I became a Posadist.
This is the thing that America, Russia, and China have in common. But I happen to live in the American one and it's best interests therefore are my best interests overall and the other two can pound sand. Besides, at least I can criticize my government freely here. Good luck with that in China or Russia.
But America is already high militarized imperialist plutocracy that suppressed minorities
America isn't already most of those adjectives?
I’d say it’s two of them, with multiethnic being a positive.
You could a just showed a photo of the US dummy.
"If"
-5000000000000 social credit ☹️👎
America: “are we a joke to you?”
I literally do not care because they have cool high speed rail.
That’s actually (sorta) a myth too
i think i can see new york!
So like, just regular America then
Dont ask a lib what they intend to do with Puerto Rico
my brother in christ that is literally a pure description of the us like word for word holy shit, i literally couldnt have described it better and more concisely.
What country is better for minorities than the US?
It’s never that simple. I live in New York, and yeah it’s one of the most diverse and accepting cities in the US, but minorities are still being stabbed and pushed into the track.
Well, compared to the Chinese tactic of rounding them up for forced reeducation and subjecting them to rape and abuse, yes, America is literally a paragon of human rights for minorites lol. Comparing a flawed democracy with a fascist ethno-state.
You haven’t linked any sources for subjugating them to rape and abuse, but you’re comparing two very different things. In Chinese cities that never happens, it’s safe to walk alone at night without fearing you’ll be the next victim of a hate crime. If you’re an ethnic minority in one of China’s occupied regions and don’t like the CPC well yes, it’s an entirely different story. I’m just saying that the US is far from a haven, I guess the difference is that in China it’s the government committing “hate crimes” and in America is the civilians. ….not that the US has never rounded up people and put them in camps, they most certainly have
Not today they haven't China is doing it now, in the modern era.
Let’s talk about the US prison system yeah?
For committing crimes, lol. Uyghers are locked away for being Uyghers. Christ what a cretin you are.
Why do you think I mentioned the US prison system on the topic of minorities being locked away for being minorities?
Name a single example of that You can't, lol.
This post is not it
What are tankies?
Authoritarian comunist who have a boner for China and the ussr
anyone to the left of reagan
Depends who you ask. Liberals will tell you it’s communists. I’ll tell you that it’s communists who take it too far, the ones that defend any “anti-american” country like North Korea.
Y u so mad at Nepal tho?
The Han man’s burden. 😔
buh... buh... amerikkka bad... i despise this subreddit
So bitter they won’t be our slaves anymore