Rule 1 - All content must show something that is objectively interesting as fuck. Just because you find something IAF doesn't mean anyone else will. It's impossible to define everything that could be considered IAF, but for a general idea browse the [top posts of all time](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/top/?t=all) from this subreddit.
Posts:
* must be interesting as fuck
* can't have audio
* can't be interesting because of text
* must go beyond something just being old
* can't be art that you made
Good faith interpretation is hes talking about from their perspective. Like they think logically their life is always going to suck and never get better. I dont think hes actually saying they should do it
Yeah. I'm not his market exactly, but I like to see what he's saying, he genuinely seems to have isolated foks' best interest at heart.
His approach and tone remind me of the kahn academy guy, but for mental health/general medicine topics.
One of my male friends has developed MS. And recently has developed some sort of partially detached cornea, which, when he sleeps, as his eyes dry out, his cornea gets stuck to his eye lid. And when he opens his eyes in the morning, he has extreme pain as the cornea detaches from his eyelid and further detaches itself from the rest of his eye.
He told me this last weekend. And then said “i dunno man, things just keep getting worse and worse, it’s hard to imagine how i can keep this up for another ten years.”
I get it. I have a spine that is fusing to itself (ankylosing spondylitis) and an immune system that eats my joints and internal organs (rheumatoid arthritis). I have similar feelings.
And we are both lawyers who graduated from top 5 US law schools with full ride scholarships. We have good jobs and romantic partners. But our health has pushed us into relative social isolation. It’s hard to imagine continuing on if we were unemployed and further isolated.
I am sorry for your troubles (fellow chronic pain / AI sufferer here). Your friend should get that cornea seen to if they haven't, detachment can lead to blindness.
Yeah, he's been to a few optometrists. I didn't press him too hard for more information - I just try to support, and, like you, encourage him to be sure to get appropriate medical help.
It's a big drain with these things - managing the medical load and doctor load alone feels like a part time gig.
Thanks for your concern!
Do the over the counter gels not work in his situation? I know after lasik they recommend artificial tears multiple times a day and an eye oitment/gel that you put on your eyes to keep them lubricated overnight?
He needs an ophthalmologist, not an optometrist, FWIW.
And I hear you! I'm hypermobile and spend a good half my time avoiding messing up my joints, or recovering from doing so. All the best to both of you!
I was pushed that far with my level - ironically, it was my lawyers (bankruptcy and employment law) who saw the signs and pushed me to get help.
Good luck to the both of you - chronic illness is bullshit.
I can't remember what it's called but there is a type of medical gel that is very specifically made for these kinds of ultra dry eyes, it's different from eye drops and sounds like it's exactly what your friend needs. It's literally like a whole ass globule of gel that you stick in your eyeball before you go to bed to make it insanely lubricated, it's made to be long lasting so this doesn't happen. It was something I found when looking into the horrors of botched laser eye surgeries.
Thank you for this. I literally screenshotted your entire comment over to him.
Maybe you just changed a strangers life for the significantly better! :)
I just wish I remember what it was called! I remember it though because he was describing basically the exact same thing you are, chronic eye pain from ultra dry eyes (but following a laser surgery that apparently went wrong) and he talked to a doctor and got this special gel to put in his eyes every night because that sticking thing would happen to him when he slept and I think it was damaging his eye. He said this was the only thing that worked but that it was basically a miracle gel for him even though it was kind of expensive. Couldn't use it during the day because it made his vision blurry (obviously). I think I heard of other people that might have used it too.
I think it was a sub about laser eye surgery or chronic eye pain or something, so he might be able to find some leads asking in there as well. I also just searched "eye gel" on google and came up with at least one thing that looked similar, but I don't know if regular use or extenuating circumstances requires a special doctor prescribed one or something.
I hope he finds relief, it sounds awful.
Someone just DMed me and recommended Muro 128 ointment. They described all the same things you are describing here. I've sent that to him as well. We'll see!
Again - thank you.
Wow, just read your post and saw you have the same A/S, overactive immune system, arthritis issue I have. Did you get checked for the B27 gene? Cause wise, I'm told it's recessive in male lines but can be activated by external sources. For me it was exposure to chemicals like BSA during my decade designing plastics recycling plants.
On topic tho, I've always been obstinate. Suicide would be too much like losing for me and I refuse to lose to a bad bit of code in my genetics.
>recently has developed some sort of partially detached cornea, which, when he sleeps, as his eyes dry out, his cornea gets stuck to his eye lid. And when he opens his eyes in the morning, he has extreme pain as the cornea detaches from his eyelid and further detaches itself from the rest of his eye.
Yeah....I've got that one. My corneas sometimes stick to the inside of my eyelids when I sleep and when I wake up my eyelid tears it. If I wake gently, I can feel it and be very careful about how I move and open my eye and prevent it from tearing. Hurts like a motherfucker for 20 minutes to an hour until everything settles back in and leaves that eye very slightly irritated and very slightly blurry for 12 to 24 hours.
Systane drops help prevent it and also help everything settle back in more quickly and stop hurting when it happens, but keeping salt levels down and making sure I'm well hydrated before bed is more reliable, since I'm unreliable about putting drops in before bed.
Would be good to get that one checked out properly, but I make $20/hr and have the shittiest insurance in the world.
I got bells palsy a couple of years back and they gave me a gel to put in my eye at night so it didn’t dry out. He could use something like that to help combat the dryness while sleeping.
I have MS too but honestly I can’t imagine a better gift than life. I guess I’m very lucky it hasn’t ground me down yet.
Dude, it’s worth watching some of his videos. It’s absolutely fascinating some of the long form talks he has with people. If nothing else, his way of connecting and speaking to people is a sight to behold. I Stan Dr. K. Guy is fucking awesome.
He's pretty solid, yeah. He triggers my "influencer" red flag if I try to watch more than one at a time, just because he's doing the whole twitch streamer energy while talking about serious topics, but his info is solid and the way he breaks things down and sets up visualizations is great
Just look up HealthyGamerGG on YouTube. He talks about many mental issues. He comes from a background of video game addiction, so that's a main target for him. He also has great perspectives on ADHD, bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder, plus has many insights to navigating today's struggles in general. Really great interviews as well!
there is a reason he learned to talk like that. He has been an influencer for quite a long time. Maybe it's not on purpose anymore, but he gets more views and engagement if he uses krass language like that, instead of always making sure he isnt going to be misunderstood.
He does make a general effort to try to not be misunderstood. But the big difference in this clip is that I'm pretty sure it's from one of the 2-5 hours long podcasts that he appears as a guest on every other month. Even if he's a professional and probably one of the most agreeable person I've ever heard in my life, I don't think even he can curate every sentence he ever utters in these things.
i know him too, he has always said things like that. He explains what he means afterwards. I am not saying its bad, just that this is a thing people do for engagement. Again, for sure not purposefully anymore, just learned it
Thank you two for clarifying... it's good to know I'm not mentally ill (i think a little more testing may help actually). But my thoughts and how I felt for a long time was just me seeing things "in the now" and logically
I found purpose with my newest relationship and that's why I've decided to continue on... but i was close... very close. The future I saw logically didn't make me want to experience it not because I was sad but just that it sucked ballllllls. Things are much better meow
I can’t separate my mental health diagnosis of depression from my understanding that my life, my experience, this society, this world, are all totally fucked up.
Is depression believing the world is shitty? What if the world and life actually terrible?
There is a line, I interpreted this as “we need to find the line, and help mentally ill people, but also we need make a better society because it’s totally jacked up”
>Is depression believing the world is shitty.
Yes. Depression has you see the world that way, and seeing the world that way makes you depressed.
And the world *is* shitty. Of course. No need to explain why. You’re not wrong.
However…
The world is *also* a really wonderful place. It can be great to be alive.
You have to see that both of those things are true; the world will always be shitty, but it will always be wonderful, too.
It’s not one or the other. There is some balance in realising this. You don’t have to fight depression/the perception that the world is a shitty place. Realise there are always good things, too. Both are always true.
Perception is required, and eventually depression might turn into compassion.
But yeah, from personal experience, once that black hole opens up it is *very* hard to come back out.
Yeah I don’t want to sound like an asshole but I sort of agree. Like the kids who set that wildfire and owes millions in damages the courts have decided can’t be dismissed when they turn 18. They have a criminal record and we’re unable to attend highschool because they were in juvie. When they are released they will owe several million dollars and be unlikely to ever repay it. Even if they manage to find a decent job they will have no hope of paying it off in their lifetime.
It would be pretty hard to want to live if your life was like this:
* physical and mental damage after decades of alcoholism or drug addiction. You're staying clean and sober but you've no longer got the "respite" that alcohol/drugs was giving you
* little money, few skills, infrequent work, tenuous housing
* over 50, so it's getting harder to put in the hours at a manual job (construction, waiter, kitchen hand, etc)
* male *or* female
I'm in a 12 step program, I regularly hear about members who have suicided.
This exactly. Literally busting your ass day after fucking day just to try to barely keep your head above water and survive, then get kicked in the teeth by an unexpected bill, like a huge emergency room bill for me that I had no say-so in (a bike crash that left me unconscious) that I have no way in hell of paying. Trigger the threats and debt collectors and more bills and…….just…..fuck.
I am 36 and I can say that the only thing keeping me here is my parents. Aside from that I have 0 incentives keeping me on Earth honestly.
I am willing to work hard and build a life but due to circumstances out of my control, those opportunities just aren't t here. They haven't been available for quite some time. Add a toxic relationship that I just got out of where my entire life was just go to work then come back to a toxic home just made it even worse.
So at this point aside from my parents, I just don't care to live just to pay bills and keep the capitalistic machine running.
It is less about depression and more about realistic options available to someone in my situation to be able to go out and enjoy life.
This is me to a T. So tired of this life. I am 63. I also have ADHD and Autism Spectrum Disorder. You want 'snake eyes', those conditions give you snake eyes.
Shift your perspective. Stay alive out of spite. Go scorched earth.
(This is my attempt at humor, please don’t take it too seriously. I truly hope you find something that brings you joy and realize that you deserve to be here)
No worries, currently in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy trying to work through all this, also in low income housing now vs. living out of a vehicle. It's all starting to come together, got approved for long term disability. I have my cat, no obligations to stew about, just going to stay focused on the positives.
After I go 'scorched earth'. . . What is there to go scorched earth about. . . Something to ponder.
Don’t give up. To follow your analogy, life is a gamble, and the house always wins. But you never go bust until you die, and until then incredible reversals of fortune are possible. I’ve seen them. At your age or older. And there’s no guarantee that death would be more pleasant than life. Think of yourself like a wandering samurai rather than a victim.
Yes, and people respond with "don't give up!" as if living in dispair is a good thing. Sure, there's always a chance that life can unexpectedly turn positive, but when you've spent all of your energy and hope with no improvement, it's not surprising that rational people decide it isn't worth trying anymore.
Yep. 62 male. Divorced after 23 years. My life is just waiting to die. I have chronic pain in my neck and back. My family doesn't talk to me after the divorce. I'd rather be dead than try to climb back on the horse.
It's alarming to me that this even needs to be said.
Yes, the problem here is that for a lot of men, their problems are real, serious, and logically difficult to work their way out of with the resources at their disposal, and the lack of support structures available.
No wonder why male suicide rates are so high, though it's a wonder why nobody cares.
I'm sure people care individually, but we as a society don't care. The big reason for that is there's no real upside to industry, politicians, or stockholders. If a few men die, ah well, there are other bodies to throw on the fire.
I wish it wasn't like that but that's what I see.
It's exactly this. He's been clipped out of context all over the internet in order to try to cancel him. It hasn't received much traction, which is probably upsetting to people who see giving mental healthcare to men as a bad thing. Yes, those people exist... in droves.
I think he is referencing that the title of this post seems to insinuate the Dr. agrees that these men don't have lives worth living. So he is correcting that by providing the good faith interpretation rather than the sensationalized title
As a guy, who has needed advice in the past, this is the most honest and meaningful approach I could have hoped for. So long as people are treating it as mental illness rather than a shitty life, they aren't addressing the underlying cause.
Not addressing the underlying cause? Not getting rid of the problem.
There are many potential problems, but until the fundamental one gets addressed, you are just kicking the problem down the line.
PS: not dismissing mental illness, just agreeing that it isn't the only thing.
> So long as people are treating it as mental illness rather than a shitty life, they aren't addressing the underlying cause.
It's both. Your life may be objectively not that great, but not doing anything about it is a sign if mental illness.
> they think logically their life is always going to suck and never get better
all ppl that off themselves think that, but the mainstream explanation is that those people are depressed and have pathological thought patterns, that they just cant see reality because there is something wrong with them. something that can be fixed.
his argument is that for some of his patients, thats not the case, they are suicidal because their situation actually is that unfixable, and they know it.
No, he’s saying, some people are good at math, and realize, that no matter how much their life improves, they’ll never get out from under their current situation.
If a slave is suicidal, are they mentally I’ll? Or perceptive and able to extrapolate their demise?
The carrots are no longer tangible, no matter how close they dangle them infront of your face, you know, you’re running a treadmill starving to death chasing a ghost of satisfaction.
We’ve created a world that 100% does not need 8 billion people, yet here we all are… more than half of us are redundant, but only a small sliver of the redundant are self aware, like his clients are.
I imagine it's also due to factors outside their control. Sometimes no amount of therapy will help if your depression is caused by capitalism preventing you from quitting your shitty job or finding any kind of stability.
Yeah i had alot of back in forth with a wonderful psychiatrist while i was in school that essentially amounts to what you are saying. So your job is just to make me borderline functional so that i can cause not too much of a fuss as a working cog in the machine.. it had nothing to do with reaching fufillment if its not within the broader confines of our role in the system. She didnt have much to say lol.
This is a really really solid point and a societal issue that I feel like mental health is lagging behind in. Sometimes there is NO solution besides giving up (in some people’s minds).
Focusing on solutions is a moot point when there’s no avenue or resource for people to access said solutions. So it kind of falls back into “let me just make you less sad about your sad situation instead of addressing the actual issues that are causing your depression on a systemic level”.
Interesting, this is another reason why those who are prescribed antidepressants don’t wish to take them for very long. (There’s a myriad of other issues), but eventually the turmoil & noise calms down & they realize that the issues that caused their initial symptoms are still there, they are just numb to them now. And people don’t want to live their lives numb.
>I dont think hes actually saying they should do it
So you're not taking his words in the worst possible interpretation we can imagine. Thanks for giving him that much credit I guess.
I partially disagree. I think he's right when he says many of his USA based male clients have a life not worth living. He will certainly help support them in changing that, but it is very easy for men to isolate themselves, have a shitty job, have bad social, financial and romantic prospects and essentially a bad life.
They still obviously need support, need tools to help build themselves up, and then help in learning to build a life worth living (for them). This is why mental health needs both psychiatrist to treat chemical imbalance and mental illness, and psychologists to help more with mental planning, strategies for coping, stress/emotional management, relationship building, and dealing with trauma.
> I partially disagree. I think he's right when he says many of his USA based male clients have a life not worth living.
I would take it a little bit further. Not acknowledging a shitty life state, or worse, dismissing it, is patronising. The first step to fixing the problem, is acknowledging the problem.
Many of the comments that are negative toward his statements suggest he should be redirecting men's attention to the good things in their lives. They are wrong: If you stepped on a nail, and it hurts, thinking about the wonderful friends you have isn't nearly has helpful as pulling the damn nail out.
> ... and psychologists to help more with [all of these things]
Yes. I don't think this guy is doing anything more than acknowledging that his patient's suffering is real... that there is in fact a (metaphoric) nail in their foot.
In his youtube channel, he does have a lot of suggestions of solutions in his other videos. Lots of reframing of the mind, addressing the whys of the terrible aspects of their lives, meditating and training the mind to put less weight into things that don't improve their lives. It's no substitute for a 1 on 1 session or something like actually spending their own money to be taught these things (spending money becomes the motivator to do difficult things), so he often has to preface everything saying it's not a substitute for a therapy but an informational session.
Even, for instance, if somebody has a physical problem that prevents them from living a normal life, there's probably a way to live around it. But perpetual pain often leads others to be less receptive of these types of things, and it's reasonable to think they think of life as no longer worth the good that comes with it.
He says mental illness is when your brain is malfunctioning. If you’re depressed because your life sucks, that’s not a malfunction. Your brain is operating just fine. Your problem is your life not your brain.
For me: i cut off all my family and friends and I explained why to my therapist. Therapist cried and couldnt say anything.
She asked me to let her know if I was going to but then she never gave me a call so I realized really, nobody cares.
There is absolutely no reason to keep on living just for the sake of living.
Existence is a reason on its own, no people needed. There’s always a monestary that can take a body and give it the resources to begin contemplation and meditation. Might as well take the extra time to get your karma in order for the next go around, ya know?
But nobody has to care. It’s not an obligation for them to care. They may have their own problems, maybe tough ones. Point is, no one caring about you is not a reason to think life isn’t worth living. It’s actually pretty normal. And the reason to keep living for the sake of living doesn’t have to be anything. There doesn’t have to be a reason. Do it if you want, don’t if you don’t, but it’s not everyone else’s fault…
I'm going to be honest with you friend. Most people do not think this way and it doesn't help to tell people that. Even people with excellent support systems that have reasons to live beyond family and friends still do put a lot of their reasons to live on other people. Your way of thinking is not the panacea that you think it is.
This is the type of statement that probably should not be in a soundbite.
He seems reasonable from the other content I've seen of his, but at face value, to claim objectively some lead "a life that isn't worth living," which would be a subjective determination of the victims themselves, is a very bold statement.
Their life probably is always going to suck, at this rate. When mental illness is involved, you think things are hopeless but there's not really a rational reason for thinking that way. These days a lot of people are genuinely looking towards a future that isn't worth living (men and women). But since this is a societal problem, maybe change is on the horizon. The more people that feel this way, the more likely things will change on a societal level.
From my non-medical armchair perspective, when a society reaches a point where a large portion of the population has zero realistic opportunity for meaningful progress combined with absolutely nothing left to lose... change, with the loud and fervent fight it takes, is imminent.
There are many, many people who are reaching the point of desperation. They see no future, and they are repeatedly told that they don't deserve one (in one way or another)... mental illness may very well evolve out of that desperation for many, but many others remain desperate but rational, angry, and sick of watching the disparity grow. Those people are a danger to the status quo. As well they should be.
I'm not advocating for violent class rebellion. But if it happens, it'll be for damn good reason. Going to be an interesting next decade or two, one way or another.
One data point, a friend, had quite logically determined his life was not worth living and was never going to get better. He was not depressed, at worst incredibly pessimistic. But the details of his particular situation did not present a path to a better future. I can believe the statistic presented.
Might be out of my element here but is depression always pathological? Also how could this guy even know if the brain is malfunctioning or not? I didn’t think we were that advanced yet. Like I know we can do brain scans and stuff but that’s not like a perfect picture of what’s going on.
Edit: also, if they see life as not worth it, then that would indicate that their cost/benefit analysis is malfunctioning which is a symptom of depression.
I can heavily relate to this. I was thinking this just the other day, that I have no more happy endings (romance, great jobs, excellent life experiences, etc...) and really what's the point. How do you 'treat' that.......fuck good luck
Honestly same. I’m making decent money so I don’t have to worry about that, but I don’t know what I wanna do with my life. After my last relationship, I’m not interested in dating at this time. I have hobbies but they’re more or less to just pass the time. I haven’t thought about “ending it”, but I do know I at least want to live so that I don’t make my mom sad.
I always think about my mom too. I could never do it as long as she's alive. The moment I don't have that burden I don't really know, maybe by then I would have another anchor.
Same way, I'm not in the business of dating, too much hustle for nothing in the long run and I'm not one of those who "enjoy the ride". Either the effort leads to something or I'm wasting time and energy that I can put on productive things so I don't feel like I'm wasting my life.
If I could produce kids I'd be a single dad, but I can't and even if I had one that could turn into a custody battle. It's not always like that but the chances are too high, specially since I would need to have a kid on a shorter relationship now due to age. I know I couldn't live knowing I did that to a kid, it would destroy me, that for sure would kill me.
Similar situation, although I'm married... and kind of wish I was not, but outside of that seems similar. Got the call today too that my dad is on his deathbed so getting ready to go deal with that, but overall I try to live my Mr. Peanutbutters words: "The universe is a cruel, uncaring void. The key to being happy isn't a search for meaning. It's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually, you'll be dead."
I think it’s important to realize that if it’s not mental illness, it can be changed, but you’ll have to change something, too. You’ll have to change something you’re doing to get on a different path and get a different result.
There are times where I’ve felt “depressed” but felt it wasn’t internal, it was external. I had to make a lot of difficult changes, but I got on a better path and now I have pieces in my life that bring me joy.
Those are great and all, but then tomorrow comes, and you have to do it again. That meal isn't as tasty, that workout doesn't burn as good. why do I have to do something challenging *everyday*? And then tomorrow comes...
100% this. I was all for gogogo. Get my life together and really start saving for my future.
I work in the construction field in greenhome practice inspections. I talk to builders. They go over housing costs. One of the builders told me it cost 100k for the one acre lot. 80k for the lot prep(county requires for ground water protection)
He said I’m almost 200k in and hasn’t even started the house . Home ownership isn’t going to happen in my life. Were all going to rent forever.
I feel like there’s no endgame anymore. Vacation isn’t even in the cards anymore. Like. So I just work work work and die?
Dating is a challenge of always bettering yourself in hopes that a women will like the career you have and that it will be enough to keep them around.
Marriage isn’t worth it anymore. So in the big picture all you have to look forward to in the next 30 years is….a better car and a 800sf house where the bathroom is in the kitchen…. I get the option to just want to peace out
Well unless you can reverse my cirrhosis, this "challenge" doesn't get to be overcome.
I got fuck all to look forward to and you want to say it's going to get better?
Everyone and everything is dying. All our bodies are slowly failing. I’m not saying you should desperately cling to life on your deathbed, or bank everything on the chance of getting a transplant. But the fact that you know how your body is failing gives you a chance of accepting the end, maybe even planning it, and making the most of right now, in spite of the challenges.
I don't want it to come over condescending or patronizing, please imagine me talking in the friendliest voice, because I mean it.
Excellent life experiences is a subjective thing. We internalized what they ought to be from the popular media, meanwhile a monk living a life in a monastery will have no romance or career, but can have excellent life experiences from community and meaningful work.
If you're relatively healthy, then community and meaningful work make more than 50% of the excellent life experiences. You don't need great jobs, yachts, and even romance is much more likely to happen once you start spending more time around people face to face through community of meaningful work.
I wholeheartedly wish you find it. "What we want and what we need are not the same thing".
Did you check out his book be recently released "How to raise a healthy gamer"? It may have valuable insight for you and you definitely supporting a good cause if you buy it.
I've only seen a handful of his videos, but it seems the majority (at least recently) aren't about gaming, but general psychology. It's a great channel.
I have listened to him for a while, and I think what he does can be very valuable - I.E: being a male role model for disenfranchised young men that would be tempted to turn to insular, toxic communities.
However, I can't help but feel these days he doesn't approach it the best way. A fair bit of the things he says recently can be more of a reinforcement for his audience's mindset rather than relating their concerns.
>A fair bit of the things he says recently can be more of a reinforcement for his audience's mindset rather than relating their concerns.
IDK, I see it more as him just not bullshitting with people. He still gives actionable advice and speaks on things from the perspective he has as a doctor and gamer and male who has been in similar positions/mindstates but you are correct in that lately he has done less "sugarcoating" as is evidenced by this clip.
I've been a fan/following for a good while and it feels like he has just gotten to the point now where he has so much content out that makes it very obvious what his intentions are when he speaks that he just doesn't care about people misconstruing him as there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary if you just Google him.
I would recommend it highly to women as well. Women need to hear the struggle of men and be moved to action.
The gender wars need to end. The competition for toughest and longest suffering needs to end. We need to actively and passionately support men and women in their struggles. Of all ages. With all levels of emotional intelligence.
We need to love men openly and actively.
I'm not a man but I've had this argument a million times with people. If my life is objectively shitty, it would be illogical NOT to be depressed. People do not like to acknowledge this.
He termed this as "Shitty life syndrome". It is very important to distinguish between this and clinical depression as people suffering from the first fall through the medical system because from a medical perspective they are not ill.
Also from a male perspective many of the issues that cause 'shitty life syndrome' are issues some men have been programmed not to talk or complain about. Long hours with no breaks or social time, being financially responsible for your family while not being able to provide, and other real world problems that don't typically fall under the umbrella of 'depressive symptoms' so rather than opening up about them men have a tenancy of bottling everything up until it kills you.
People can never fully remove themselves from their own perspective and interests. Saying that to someone can provoke a response from their own world view thinking about their own values, etc. That’s why friend advice can be kind but useless.
Exactly. It's not always that you have a brain issue, in some cases life just sucks.
This is one of the reasons I really like Dr. K. He's one of the few that actually tries to improve peoples lives.
Right. The problem is how easy it is to get SSRIs. Life can just be shitty, but if I tell that to a psychiatrist I am put on a happy pill that isn’t a cure for how shitty my life is. We need to start looking at treatment through a different lens than the biomedical model. People need a place, they need community and I’m not talking about nice neighbors and a book club.
What’s the point?? I go to work for money that isn’t worth even half what it used to be. Only to afford my basic human needs. If I can’t afford my basic human needs then I damn sure can’t afford my hobbies. I’m addicted to screens. I wanna be a leaf in a tree, a stone in a river, a flower in a field. I hate being me and hate what the world is and has become. I tried taking my life once and still don’t understand why I’m still here…
It's scary because it's final. If your life sucks at the moment, there is a possibility that it will get better some time in the future. And there is literally nothing else you will experience afterwards. So you might as well try, no matter how hopeless it seems at the moment, because you really don't have anything better to do.
Viktor Frankl speaks on this topic in his book “Man’s Search For Meaning”. I thought to myself if he could find meaning and a reason to live throughout the Holocaust, spending time in concentration camps, and losing his family then perhaps I can do the same with my objectively easier life, even if it’s hard to me sometimes.
Not only that but sometimes shit can get way better. I’m an old man now but I hated being 20-27 so fucking bad. It got a lot better. Not at all what I thought it might be, but better.
There's the term "Bilanzsuizid" in german, i'm not quite sure about the translation to english, but it is about people that look at their life and in the review come to the conclusion that it is just not worth living anymore.
The things don't need to be connected to mental health, like when someone goes bankrupt with his company and he loses everything, he goes so much down in debt that even when he'd work the entire rest of his life all the time, he could never get out of debt again. And that's just one example, there are a lot more things than can lead up to this point.
For me, well, i got bipolar disorder, alcoholism, drug addiction, going to be homeless... life sucks, man. It really sucks. I'm not so sure if it is worth living anymore, but still, i have not crossed the point of no return.
Yeah a "bilanz" is the fazit, the conclusion, the end of a review and other terms in english. Just with a bank account, the term is used there too, for your positive- and negative stuff like income and debt.
we don't need drugs, we need purpose, meaning and to feel wanted.
There's an incredible book that helped me tremendously by Johan Hari called Lost Connections, I'd highly highly recommend it to anyone struggling with depression or for people you know who are suffering.
Viktor flankl survived the Holocaust because he made his objective to see his wife again. He talks a lot about that in his book, "a man's search for meaning". He also created cognitive behavioral therapy
Hmm, even if you come to the perfectly logical conclusion that life is not worth it right now, doesn’t mean that you can’t be mistaken about your prediction for the future.
I can look back on my depressed period with suicidal ideation 10 years ago and confidently say I am glad that I’m still around. Because I genuinely enjoy being alive now, and have been enjoying it the last 5 years. I hopefully have about 40 years ahead of me and I don’t see any of them getting as bad as where I came from, so I’m awaiting them with open arms.
Once in a while, I think back on that period and I always think what a complete waste it would have been if I would have missed out on the past 5 years, and the future.
I guess it was curiosity that pulled me through. Like, back then I wouldn’t mind if I died, death would come at some point anyway, so I wanted to see what would happen when I waited for death. Now that things have changed, I don’t want to die at all.
It’s okay to feel validated, but please try to look at it from my perspective as well. I wish you all the best.
What’s wrong?
For what it’s worth I think this guy means FROM THE PERSON SUFFERING’s POV. They’ve convinced themselves they have a life way living with no way out. Whether or not this is actually true is a whole other story (and is more than likely not actually the case)
Improving people’s material conditions does wonders for their mental health. Basic Guarenteed income would do more for suicide than most medications I bet
This right here. As a young adult who was saving for a house before covid, it is so disheartening to see that I'm farther away from getting a house than when I started saving. It just feels so hopeless sometimes.
Both my father and step-father committed suicide. I had to clean up the latter and almost did myself a couple times in the decade I spent pickling myself afterwards. I was fortunate to finally get trauma specific treatment for the CPTSD and also sober up while working with various support groups and organizations.
I’ve spent a lot of late nights with people on the phone and what I always say to them is what I’ll say below:
There are three main indicators on whether someone is seriously at risk of committing suicide.
1.) They feel trapped
2.) They feel like people would be better off without them
and 3.) They have a plan
Having been there myself, I’m intimately familiar with the blinders that depression and ideation create. And it legitimately feels like things won’t ever change and it’s going to be that way forever. But let’s take some time to think about these three.
1.) Feeling trapped - You’re never as trapped as you think you are. If you’re feeling tied down by a shitty job, or a bad home life, having to support kids/parents/etc, or being stuck in a town or friend circle that’s toxic as hell… You can leave all of those. You may be unemployed, but that’s fixable - being dead isn’t. You might abandon your family and move to Costa Rica, you may be considered a shitty spouse/father but that’s fixable-being dead isn’t, and is almost certainly worse for them in the long run. Before you write it all off, just gtfo of there. If it’s making you that miserable, chances are you’re living other people’s values and not your own. You’ve got time to find new values, but not if you’re not around.
2.) Feeling like people would be better off without you - Take it from someone who’s fathers both said the same thing verbatim… having a loved one (or even just a tolerated family member) kill themselves changes you on a molecular level forever. I’ve seen it time and time again. Children never get their spark back, partners walk around in a malaise years later. Mothers and fathers sit around waiting out their own clocks. It forces every person close to you to stare down an unanswerable question, and that floating question mark will color everything they do and experience for the rest of their lives. Our survival instincts are so strong, that our brain’s basically short-circuit when trying to comprehend how someone can just delete themselves. They study suicide in clusters, because the act of one person committing suicide essentially gives the people around them (specifically their children) permission to entertain the idea. Children have a 300% higher likelihood of committing suicide themselves when a parent models it as an example. Like it or not, it’s an option now for everyone touched by it. No amount of money, struggles, pride, etc will match the trauma imposed upon the people that survive. No one is better off in the aftermath. The pain doesn’t go away, it just gets spread around and they’ll carry it for the rest of their lives.
3.) Having a plan - I’m not talking about passively driving over a bridge and having an intrusive thought. Or occasionally thinking “man, it would kinda be nice to just not exist”. Those are normal things to think. It’s the whole “Stare too long at the abyss and the abyss stares back” kinda thing. A plan means specific actions, a method, a note, etc and it’s one of the most closely guarded things an ideating person will hold. The best thing I can relate here is that you’re not alone or terminally unique here. I’ve had a plan too. If I’m really on the edge, I’ll walk through my plan with the person or discuss different methods and the efficacy/failure rate of each one. I don’t even have to be told their plan, the goal is to let them know they’re not alone. They’re not terminally broken or exiled for feeling this way. Thousands upon thousands of people have these feeling. Most people at one point or another in their life will have similar or adjacent thoughts. Some have them for years on end, but miraculously grind out another day. I felt that way everyday for a period of about 2.5-3 years. I’m incredibly fortunate to have found resources that helped me climb out of that. Hell, one of the first support groups I walked into had a couple old timers joking back and forth saying “goddamn, I wanted to kill myself every damn day for years but it turns out I just needed to sober up/get the right meds/therapy etc” and for some reason hearing that out loud gave me the first real relief I’d had in years. I’d thought if I’d mentioned it to a therapist or doctor they’d press a red button under their desk and haul me away in a strait jacket, but these salty old men gave me permission to relax my face for the first time in ages.
I did therapy, I sobered up, I got the right med combo (finally), did trauma specific therapy (EMDR saved my damn life), worked through some codependent/generational trauma stuff, and have somehow managed to carve out a pretty damned good life for myself since. But I wouldn’t have believed you for a second if you’d told me that back then. Don’t quit too soon, you might be selling yourself short.
Honest question,
Why does it have to be deemed a controversial statement to say what has been going on for a long time regarding depression and suicide, not just for men, but also women?
Support is often unhelpful in cases where people ACTUALLY need help, and very often those who need help don't reach out and suffer in silence.
Society often ignores this, yet stupidly wonders why it happens.
Women have more help and support readily available.
A friend of mine was recently turned away from a group that meets to discuss and help with depression. He was turned away because he is a man.
I was a victim of sexual assault as a teenager.
I've been *literally* laughed at by 3 separate healthcare "professionals". There is no help, there is nothing for men who have been sexually assaulted by a woman. It's just the punchline to a joke.
Woman don't have a monopoly on sexual abuse. Went through it for 10 yrs before I could get away. He's dead now and I'm still stuck with the trauma. My wife at the time when I finally told her within the same day used it against me and asked me if I was gay. Mind you we already 3 children. We literally have no one to turn to. There is no support system. Most days ending it all crosses my mind at least once and I've come real close one time where i'd basically cancelled all my obligations and was preparing papers for my kids to get everything. I would never put that burden on them though to have knowledge of what I went through and have assured their lives were never touched by anything like this. Honestly I probably should have skipped this thread but was just too curious. It's gonna be one of those nights where I need to stop off and get some memory erasing elixirs to sleep.
Well, if its any comfort your experience isn't unique. I was sexually abused as an 8 year old by a maid for 4 years. 25 odd years later Im still scarred to all hell.
And you're quite right, accessing resources feels impossible and nobody really understands the damage it does or have the resources to care even if they can manage sympathy.
I dont know which country you're in but check out RAINN and 1in6. Though I'm not convinced talking it out can always help. Maybe accept your scars and use your life to protecting kids from the damage in any way you can help.
Often times it's because men are often told "Men who show emotions are weak" "Tough it out" "Be a man" and keep it inside. Eventually, something has to give.
Nobody is less of a person when reaching out and asking for help.
Society has clearly shown us they care more about women's mental health, which leaves men finding it harder to get support, and often are discriminated against.
I disagree to a significant extent about the first half of what you said, even if I agree entirely with the last part.
Sometimes men and women simply need different kinds of support, and different kinds of mindsets.
Yes, 'men who show emotions are weak' is not as helpful of a statement compared to 'you're strong, stay tough - you can push this back, here's some practical advice and good habits to build off' ... but neither is the sort of 'yes, you're broken, here take some benzos and show up to expensive therapy to cry your feelings out once a week to someone who doesn't say much useful' approach that seems to be the default the vast majority of the time.
The suicide rate for men is at least 3 to 4 times higher than women.
From my experience, people can't wait to kick you while you're down. Women are human beings, men are human doings. If you have nothing to show for your worth you can go die in a ditch for all anyone cares.
because making it a gendered issue keeps people debating each other rather than accept its nearly the same for everyone at a certain point in life
as a woman with no family who's faced abuse, I have no idea where this supposed help is that Im obligated to get as a woman. or the automatic belief in my situation. truthfully, if you lose your family, you're pretty much a nobody with no reason for anyone to support you because foundationally humans do not care about each other. that's why we depend on the government to provide social services to people like me with no support system. once you hit a certain level in society, gender, race, sexuality etc makes little difference as you systemically carry less worth than someone, anyone, with a built in, healthy support system.
but the bonus of being a woman is being told how much more help and support you get to also live in the reality that you get nothing but questions and made into a social pariah.
On a sociological level women are more likely to reach out for help and therefore more likely to actually get the help. This is specifically a problem in men because that was the group that the speaker had for data. I don't think it's controversial anywhere besides a reddit comment section. But going off of statistic answers, again generally speaking not saying it applies to everyone, women are more likely to fail suicide attempts because many times it will be an attempt to reach out for help or signal a warning. Men are more likely to succeed in committing suicide because they don't reach out and generally perform the act with the intent to succeed if it's at that point.
Disclaimer because I feel it's going to be needed. This isn't my anecdotal experience, this is based on sociology and psychology. It's not foolproof and absolutely not meant to be a blanket statement. It is supported by data and research though and therefore I thought it would be an appropriate response to your question.
Edit: Here's a link to a study for anyone interested. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3539603/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3539603/)
It's an important topic to focus on men and women differently because, like they said in the conclusion, there are implications to the methods that could prevent this from happening. It seems like the video was concurring with the idea therapy may be more effective in "survivors/attempters." This could just be a variation in data, but even the sample size has 114 women and only 33 males. Men choose more violent methods and another way of looking at it is that you are less likely to find a second chance to help them once they've set their mind.
Edit 2: If you're going to downvote then I'll give you a reason. Stop being fucking sensitive and read about the fact. Your personal experience and anecdotes aren't data or research. Get educated and learn about it if you care enough to take an objective statement personally.
Dr. Alok Kanojia is a fantastic guy. You've ever had some questions gnawing on you but don't know how to express them? He pinpoints them and then explains beautifully. I've been following him for about a year and I believe i've made huge improvements on myself.
I wish struggling men would find this guy instead of redpill communities...
I was in the rp community when it was still just a Reddit thing. The Pre-Tate/RP influencer community genuinely had good advice for young men to get their mind right. Hell, its the reason Im even open to stuff like this
Now? Total cesspit on a path of shit
Controversial, but very IAF opinion. And at 49 seconds, not wasteful of time ;)
EDIT:
his opinion is most suicidal men don't have a medical condition like depression (treatable with meds and/or therapy), but a serious lack of things to live for. Zero motivation. Empty lives.
Implying massive lifestyle ~~changes~~ improvements are necessary more than medical treatment.
Interesting, (as fuck)
Better than you telling them that you’re depressed because you’re homeless, have no childcare, losing your job, car is unreliable and they reply with, “have you tried meditation?”
Kinda confusing communication.
Suicide is not a mental illness. And he's right about research showing over 50% don't have a history of mental illness, but history of mental illness is still the biggest factor.
The quoted part can appear a bit cold to those unfamiliar with the area, but he's basically saying they feel hopeless.
It's that feeling hopeless, helpless, trapped by circumstances, that can happen to anyone, not just those with mental illness.
I've watched a bunch of Dr. K's content and imho the guy is absolutely spot on. Any discussion on this can't be summed up in a 50 second clip, and it's obvious that this is being presented without full context.
Imo this is most 'mental illness' these days. Antidepressants and the like are meant to fix chemical imbalances, but i feel most often the imbalance is caused by our environment and not physiological constraint. Giving people the tools (improve society, encourage therapy and make it accessible) is the appropriate treatment.
Pharmaceuticals should be used for people who are genetically provided bogus brain chemistries, or for people at risk of doing damage to themselves or others while they pursue therapy and life coaching.
(ADD falls into a similar category for me)
Hey. Itza me and my existential dread.
Throughout my life I was always known as the high best high energy happy dude. I genuinely love this life and feel blessed to experience it but man as I’ve aged I’ve been crushed by the knowledge I’ll never own anything or have a future that isn’t met with hardships and struggle. I was born into a poor situation. History of alcoholism and no support.
No more family left and friends off doing their own thing with partners. Even when I date I feel like a fraud cause I genuinely feel happy with myself. Exercise and maintain whatever this is as a life and make sure my dog gets all the adventures but know I can’t support anyone else. Think it’s futile to be with someone who sees a future when I barely see a tomorrow. Sucks to suck but I ain’t planning on giving up anytime til I’m called to the great beyond. But know I’ll own nothing and die and be forgotten soon after.
Use to be where one could work hard and make something. But working hard doesn’t offer anything of value anymore. Take the overtime? have a side hustle? You mean constantly keep working to have money to survive. I get by on my minimum and don’t splurge beyond a fancy meal for me and my dog from time to time.
Oh well. Maybe down the line in another generation people who are in power will actually work to help those of us who don’t get that support and try their damndest to make something of themselves but it doesn’t feel like it’s Happening now.
He's probably right. Many men, especially from modern societies point of view, aren't living worthwhile lives.
This is a big hurdle for young men that do not feel worthy, or up to the par set for them. Whether "by themselves" or by others.
If you accept just world is a fallacy, then you kind of have to accept that some people are genuinely in a position where they are never going to turn things around. Just as some people can roll 20s in genetics and in opportunities, some people will role 0s.
Honestly most people should just go watch the whole interview to give them the context. This interviewer has a massive amount of helpful dialogue with all sorts of people over his career.
‘Diary of a CEO’ is all over YouTube
He's right I think, sort of, but it depends a little bit on how you define rational.
Given a certain set of facts about your life, you might come to an arguably rational conclusion of suicide.
How you get to that set of facts might still be irrational though, possibly indicative of some kind of mental illness (which might not be diagnosed, hence no statistic).
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I had this happen to me. It was so... LIBERATING to hear someone tell me that. You have no idea how nice it is to have someone just tell you that "yes.. your life sucks and I would probably feel and want to kill myself in your situation as well".
I wasn't being encouraged to. I was walked back from the proverbial edge. But rather than someone just tell me to keep fighting and that it'd get better if was awesome to hear "your life, right now, it BLOWS".
Oh, oh, I soooo feel this.
Just made my therapist cry when I brought it up last week.
My question to her was:
"What is the point of tomorrow?"
She didn't know how to answer me. We left it at that. For me, there really is no point that I can grasp.
The thing is, I can even work out mathematically why I, and everyone else in my life, is better off with me dead. The only thing that gets me up and keeps me going is knowing that the psychological damage caused to my kids wouldn't be outweighed by the financial gain. That and the drive to create something better.
>!The point of tomorrow is that there is a tomorrow.!<
I never knew that 'mental illness' literally meant something is wrong with your brain, like an arm that's broken.
I just thought it meant feeling down because of something in the mind.
Lol people who get diagnosed with mental illness have been saying something along these lines for ages and gotten nothing but gaslighting from psychiatrists
The malfunction comes from the suicidal thoughts, not the other way around. For example, not even knowing how or where to actually make friends, explore interests, or otherwise cultivate your life because you have been checked out for so long.
Source: suicidal thoughts
It’s not success or lack of opportunity making people miserable. It’s social isolation. People in much worse conditions are much happier because they live close to family and friends. We all too often live in self imposed isolation.
I take this as: Depression is the proper response to a depressing life. You’re not crazy. Your life is just not fulfilling you.
But the good news is that you have incredible power to change your life. Don’t discount the exponential growth that comes from small, consistent changes. You may not be able to heal completely, or become wealthy, (in other words, achieve every single dream you’ve ever had) but you can make your life enjoyable. Find what changes you can make and start making them today.
"The CDC's mortality records for 2017 reveal over 50% of deaths by suicide were by people with no known psychiatric illness."
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33351435/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33351435/)
Rule 1 - All content must show something that is objectively interesting as fuck. Just because you find something IAF doesn't mean anyone else will. It's impossible to define everything that could be considered IAF, but for a general idea browse the [top posts of all time](https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/top/?t=all) from this subreddit. Posts: * must be interesting as fuck * can't have audio * can't be interesting because of text * must go beyond something just being old * can't be art that you made
Good faith interpretation is hes talking about from their perspective. Like they think logically their life is always going to suck and never get better. I dont think hes actually saying they should do it
As someone who has seen a lot of his stuff, yes, that's exactly what he means.
Yeah. I'm not his market exactly, but I like to see what he's saying, he genuinely seems to have isolated foks' best interest at heart. His approach and tone remind me of the kahn academy guy, but for mental health/general medicine topics.
One of my male friends has developed MS. And recently has developed some sort of partially detached cornea, which, when he sleeps, as his eyes dry out, his cornea gets stuck to his eye lid. And when he opens his eyes in the morning, he has extreme pain as the cornea detaches from his eyelid and further detaches itself from the rest of his eye. He told me this last weekend. And then said “i dunno man, things just keep getting worse and worse, it’s hard to imagine how i can keep this up for another ten years.” I get it. I have a spine that is fusing to itself (ankylosing spondylitis) and an immune system that eats my joints and internal organs (rheumatoid arthritis). I have similar feelings. And we are both lawyers who graduated from top 5 US law schools with full ride scholarships. We have good jobs and romantic partners. But our health has pushed us into relative social isolation. It’s hard to imagine continuing on if we were unemployed and further isolated.
I am sorry for your troubles (fellow chronic pain / AI sufferer here). Your friend should get that cornea seen to if they haven't, detachment can lead to blindness.
Yeah, he's been to a few optometrists. I didn't press him too hard for more information - I just try to support, and, like you, encourage him to be sure to get appropriate medical help. It's a big drain with these things - managing the medical load and doctor load alone feels like a part time gig. Thanks for your concern!
Do the over the counter gels not work in his situation? I know after lasik they recommend artificial tears multiple times a day and an eye oitment/gel that you put on your eyes to keep them lubricated overnight?
No idea but several people have suggested a few things, all of which i’ve sent to him. So hopefully something works!
He needs an ophthalmologist, not an optometrist, FWIW. And I hear you! I'm hypermobile and spend a good half my time avoiding messing up my joints, or recovering from doing so. All the best to both of you!
I was pushed that far with my level - ironically, it was my lawyers (bankruptcy and employment law) who saw the signs and pushed me to get help. Good luck to the both of you - chronic illness is bullshit.
Healthy people have no idea how lucky they are.
See! Some of us are good! :P Hope you are doing better now!
As Tyrion Lannister once said "if you are going to be a cripple, its better to be a wealthy one". I agree with both him and yourself.
I can't remember what it's called but there is a type of medical gel that is very specifically made for these kinds of ultra dry eyes, it's different from eye drops and sounds like it's exactly what your friend needs. It's literally like a whole ass globule of gel that you stick in your eyeball before you go to bed to make it insanely lubricated, it's made to be long lasting so this doesn't happen. It was something I found when looking into the horrors of botched laser eye surgeries.
Thank you for this. I literally screenshotted your entire comment over to him. Maybe you just changed a strangers life for the significantly better! :)
I just wish I remember what it was called! I remember it though because he was describing basically the exact same thing you are, chronic eye pain from ultra dry eyes (but following a laser surgery that apparently went wrong) and he talked to a doctor and got this special gel to put in his eyes every night because that sticking thing would happen to him when he slept and I think it was damaging his eye. He said this was the only thing that worked but that it was basically a miracle gel for him even though it was kind of expensive. Couldn't use it during the day because it made his vision blurry (obviously). I think I heard of other people that might have used it too. I think it was a sub about laser eye surgery or chronic eye pain or something, so he might be able to find some leads asking in there as well. I also just searched "eye gel" on google and came up with at least one thing that looked similar, but I don't know if regular use or extenuating circumstances requires a special doctor prescribed one or something. I hope he finds relief, it sounds awful.
Someone just DMed me and recommended Muro 128 ointment. They described all the same things you are describing here. I've sent that to him as well. We'll see! Again - thank you.
Wow, just read your post and saw you have the same A/S, overactive immune system, arthritis issue I have. Did you get checked for the B27 gene? Cause wise, I'm told it's recessive in male lines but can be activated by external sources. For me it was exposure to chemicals like BSA during my decade designing plastics recycling plants. On topic tho, I've always been obstinate. Suicide would be too much like losing for me and I refuse to lose to a bad bit of code in my genetics.
>recently has developed some sort of partially detached cornea, which, when he sleeps, as his eyes dry out, his cornea gets stuck to his eye lid. And when he opens his eyes in the morning, he has extreme pain as the cornea detaches from his eyelid and further detaches itself from the rest of his eye. Yeah....I've got that one. My corneas sometimes stick to the inside of my eyelids when I sleep and when I wake up my eyelid tears it. If I wake gently, I can feel it and be very careful about how I move and open my eye and prevent it from tearing. Hurts like a motherfucker for 20 minutes to an hour until everything settles back in and leaves that eye very slightly irritated and very slightly blurry for 12 to 24 hours. Systane drops help prevent it and also help everything settle back in more quickly and stop hurting when it happens, but keeping salt levels down and making sure I'm well hydrated before bed is more reliable, since I'm unreliable about putting drops in before bed. Would be good to get that one checked out properly, but I make $20/hr and have the shittiest insurance in the world.
I got bells palsy a couple of years back and they gave me a gel to put in my eye at night so it didn’t dry out. He could use something like that to help combat the dryness while sleeping. I have MS too but honestly I can’t imagine a better gift than life. I guess I’m very lucky it hasn’t ground me down yet.
Dude, it’s worth watching some of his videos. It’s absolutely fascinating some of the long form talks he has with people. If nothing else, his way of connecting and speaking to people is a sight to behold. I Stan Dr. K. Guy is fucking awesome.
He's pretty solid, yeah. He triggers my "influencer" red flag if I try to watch more than one at a time, just because he's doing the whole twitch streamer energy while talking about serious topics, but his info is solid and the way he breaks things down and sets up visualizations is great
Can you make a recommendation?
Just look up HealthyGamerGG on YouTube. He talks about many mental issues. He comes from a background of video game addiction, so that's a main target for him. He also has great perspectives on ADHD, bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder, plus has many insights to navigating today's struggles in general. Really great interviews as well!
Is interview with Ironmouse about her journey with her immune disease and streaming career is great
I agree, but it wouldn't have hurt to put in a "*they believe* is no longer worth living."
there is a reason he learned to talk like that. He has been an influencer for quite a long time. Maybe it's not on purpose anymore, but he gets more views and engagement if he uses krass language like that, instead of always making sure he isnt going to be misunderstood.
He does make a general effort to try to not be misunderstood. But the big difference in this clip is that I'm pretty sure it's from one of the 2-5 hours long podcasts that he appears as a guest on every other month. Even if he's a professional and probably one of the most agreeable person I've ever heard in my life, I don't think even he can curate every sentence he ever utters in these things.
i know him too, he has always said things like that. He explains what he means afterwards. I am not saying its bad, just that this is a thing people do for engagement. Again, for sure not purposefully anymore, just learned it
Why can't it be objective? It doesn't mean he thinks they should go through with it, just that their life is unbearable as it is.
As someone living this scenario right now, yeah, thats probably what he means
Thank you two for clarifying... it's good to know I'm not mentally ill (i think a little more testing may help actually). But my thoughts and how I felt for a long time was just me seeing things "in the now" and logically I found purpose with my newest relationship and that's why I've decided to continue on... but i was close... very close. The future I saw logically didn't make me want to experience it not because I was sad but just that it sucked ballllllls. Things are much better meow
I can’t separate my mental health diagnosis of depression from my understanding that my life, my experience, this society, this world, are all totally fucked up. Is depression believing the world is shitty? What if the world and life actually terrible? There is a line, I interpreted this as “we need to find the line, and help mentally ill people, but also we need make a better society because it’s totally jacked up”
>Is depression believing the world is shitty. Yes. Depression has you see the world that way, and seeing the world that way makes you depressed. And the world *is* shitty. Of course. No need to explain why. You’re not wrong. However… The world is *also* a really wonderful place. It can be great to be alive. You have to see that both of those things are true; the world will always be shitty, but it will always be wonderful, too. It’s not one or the other. There is some balance in realising this. You don’t have to fight depression/the perception that the world is a shitty place. Realise there are always good things, too. Both are always true. Perception is required, and eventually depression might turn into compassion. But yeah, from personal experience, once that black hole opens up it is *very* hard to come back out.
Yeah I don’t want to sound like an asshole but I sort of agree. Like the kids who set that wildfire and owes millions in damages the courts have decided can’t be dismissed when they turn 18. They have a criminal record and we’re unable to attend highschool because they were in juvie. When they are released they will owe several million dollars and be unlikely to ever repay it. Even if they manage to find a decent job they will have no hope of paying it off in their lifetime.
It would be pretty hard to want to live if your life was like this: * physical and mental damage after decades of alcoholism or drug addiction. You're staying clean and sober but you've no longer got the "respite" that alcohol/drugs was giving you * little money, few skills, infrequent work, tenuous housing * over 50, so it's getting harder to put in the hours at a manual job (construction, waiter, kitchen hand, etc) * male *or* female I'm in a 12 step program, I regularly hear about members who have suicided.
This exactly. Literally busting your ass day after fucking day just to try to barely keep your head above water and survive, then get kicked in the teeth by an unexpected bill, like a huge emergency room bill for me that I had no say-so in (a bike crash that left me unconscious) that I have no way in hell of paying. Trigger the threats and debt collectors and more bills and…….just…..fuck.
USA
I am 36 and I can say that the only thing keeping me here is my parents. Aside from that I have 0 incentives keeping me on Earth honestly. I am willing to work hard and build a life but due to circumstances out of my control, those opportunities just aren't t here. They haven't been available for quite some time. Add a toxic relationship that I just got out of where my entire life was just go to work then come back to a toxic home just made it even worse. So at this point aside from my parents, I just don't care to live just to pay bills and keep the capitalistic machine running. It is less about depression and more about realistic options available to someone in my situation to be able to go out and enjoy life.
This is me to a T. So tired of this life. I am 63. I also have ADHD and Autism Spectrum Disorder. You want 'snake eyes', those conditions give you snake eyes.
Shift your perspective. Stay alive out of spite. Go scorched earth. (This is my attempt at humor, please don’t take it too seriously. I truly hope you find something that brings you joy and realize that you deserve to be here)
No worries, currently in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy trying to work through all this, also in low income housing now vs. living out of a vehicle. It's all starting to come together, got approved for long term disability. I have my cat, no obligations to stew about, just going to stay focused on the positives. After I go 'scorched earth'. . . What is there to go scorched earth about. . . Something to ponder.
Keep going brother. We only get one ride. I have what you have and I get it. Much love.
Don’t give up. To follow your analogy, life is a gamble, and the house always wins. But you never go bust until you die, and until then incredible reversals of fortune are possible. I’ve seen them. At your age or older. And there’s no guarantee that death would be more pleasant than life. Think of yourself like a wandering samurai rather than a victim.
Yes, and people respond with "don't give up!" as if living in dispair is a good thing. Sure, there's always a chance that life can unexpectedly turn positive, but when you've spent all of your energy and hope with no improvement, it's not surprising that rational people decide it isn't worth trying anymore.
Yep. 62 male. Divorced after 23 years. My life is just waiting to die. I have chronic pain in my neck and back. My family doesn't talk to me after the divorce. I'd rather be dead than try to climb back on the horse.
> getting harder to put in the hours at a ~~manual~~ job Keeping up with the young 'uns only gets harder in desk jobs as you get older too :/
That list is a killer, and describes so many people that I know.
It's alarming to me that this even needs to be said. Yes, the problem here is that for a lot of men, their problems are real, serious, and logically difficult to work their way out of with the resources at their disposal, and the lack of support structures available. No wonder why male suicide rates are so high, though it's a wonder why nobody cares.
I'm sure people care individually, but we as a society don't care. The big reason for that is there's no real upside to industry, politicians, or stockholders. If a few men die, ah well, there are other bodies to throw on the fire. I wish it wasn't like that but that's what I see.
It's exactly this. He's been clipped out of context all over the internet in order to try to cancel him. It hasn't received much traction, which is probably upsetting to people who see giving mental healthcare to men as a bad thing. Yes, those people exist... in droves.
This is not "good faith interpretation", it's the only interpretation as this is literally the only thing he said.
I think he is referencing that the title of this post seems to insinuate the Dr. agrees that these men don't have lives worth living. So he is correcting that by providing the good faith interpretation rather than the sensationalized title
He does agree they don’t have lives worth living. But the answer is to change their lives rather than end it.
Thanks for the additional clarification
As a guy, who has needed advice in the past, this is the most honest and meaningful approach I could have hoped for. So long as people are treating it as mental illness rather than a shitty life, they aren't addressing the underlying cause. Not addressing the underlying cause? Not getting rid of the problem. There are many potential problems, but until the fundamental one gets addressed, you are just kicking the problem down the line. PS: not dismissing mental illness, just agreeing that it isn't the only thing.
> So long as people are treating it as mental illness rather than a shitty life, they aren't addressing the underlying cause. It's both. Your life may be objectively not that great, but not doing anything about it is a sign if mental illness.
> they think logically their life is always going to suck and never get better all ppl that off themselves think that, but the mainstream explanation is that those people are depressed and have pathological thought patterns, that they just cant see reality because there is something wrong with them. something that can be fixed. his argument is that for some of his patients, thats not the case, they are suicidal because their situation actually is that unfixable, and they know it.
Depression is a symptom of modern day society
No, he’s saying, some people are good at math, and realize, that no matter how much their life improves, they’ll never get out from under their current situation. If a slave is suicidal, are they mentally I’ll? Or perceptive and able to extrapolate their demise? The carrots are no longer tangible, no matter how close they dangle them infront of your face, you know, you’re running a treadmill starving to death chasing a ghost of satisfaction. We’ve created a world that 100% does not need 8 billion people, yet here we all are… more than half of us are redundant, but only a small sliver of the redundant are self aware, like his clients are.
I imagine it's also due to factors outside their control. Sometimes no amount of therapy will help if your depression is caused by capitalism preventing you from quitting your shitty job or finding any kind of stability.
Yeah i had alot of back in forth with a wonderful psychiatrist while i was in school that essentially amounts to what you are saying. So your job is just to make me borderline functional so that i can cause not too much of a fuss as a working cog in the machine.. it had nothing to do with reaching fufillment if its not within the broader confines of our role in the system. She didnt have much to say lol.
This is a really really solid point and a societal issue that I feel like mental health is lagging behind in. Sometimes there is NO solution besides giving up (in some people’s minds). Focusing on solutions is a moot point when there’s no avenue or resource for people to access said solutions. So it kind of falls back into “let me just make you less sad about your sad situation instead of addressing the actual issues that are causing your depression on a systemic level”.
Throw in those studies linking depression with more realistic thinking…and start thinking about climate change, and you can see a storm is coming.
Exactly. I've heard it referred to as Shit Life Syndrome.
Interesting, this is another reason why those who are prescribed antidepressants don’t wish to take them for very long. (There’s a myriad of other issues), but eventually the turmoil & noise calms down & they realize that the issues that caused their initial symptoms are still there, they are just numb to them now. And people don’t want to live their lives numb.
Yup, that's why some people call them "apathy pills". They don't fix anything in your life but you sure can sort of blindly drift through the misery.
Capitalism strikes again! /s
>I dont think hes actually saying they should do it So you're not taking his words in the worst possible interpretation we can imagine. Thanks for giving him that much credit I guess.
I partially disagree. I think he's right when he says many of his USA based male clients have a life not worth living. He will certainly help support them in changing that, but it is very easy for men to isolate themselves, have a shitty job, have bad social, financial and romantic prospects and essentially a bad life. They still obviously need support, need tools to help build themselves up, and then help in learning to build a life worth living (for them). This is why mental health needs both psychiatrist to treat chemical imbalance and mental illness, and psychologists to help more with mental planning, strategies for coping, stress/emotional management, relationship building, and dealing with trauma.
> I partially disagree. I think he's right when he says many of his USA based male clients have a life not worth living. I would take it a little bit further. Not acknowledging a shitty life state, or worse, dismissing it, is patronising. The first step to fixing the problem, is acknowledging the problem. Many of the comments that are negative toward his statements suggest he should be redirecting men's attention to the good things in their lives. They are wrong: If you stepped on a nail, and it hurts, thinking about the wonderful friends you have isn't nearly has helpful as pulling the damn nail out. > ... and psychologists to help more with [all of these things] Yes. I don't think this guy is doing anything more than acknowledging that his patient's suffering is real... that there is in fact a (metaphoric) nail in their foot.
In his youtube channel, he does have a lot of suggestions of solutions in his other videos. Lots of reframing of the mind, addressing the whys of the terrible aspects of their lives, meditating and training the mind to put less weight into things that don't improve their lives. It's no substitute for a 1 on 1 session or something like actually spending their own money to be taught these things (spending money becomes the motivator to do difficult things), so he often has to preface everything saying it's not a substitute for a therapy but an informational session. Even, for instance, if somebody has a physical problem that prevents them from living a normal life, there's probably a way to live around it. But perpetual pain often leads others to be less receptive of these types of things, and it's reasonable to think they think of life as no longer worth the good that comes with it.
He says mental illness is when your brain is malfunctioning. If you’re depressed because your life sucks, that’s not a malfunction. Your brain is operating just fine. Your problem is your life not your brain.
For me: i cut off all my family and friends and I explained why to my therapist. Therapist cried and couldnt say anything. She asked me to let her know if I was going to but then she never gave me a call so I realized really, nobody cares. There is absolutely no reason to keep on living just for the sake of living.
Existence is a reason on its own, no people needed. There’s always a monestary that can take a body and give it the resources to begin contemplation and meditation. Might as well take the extra time to get your karma in order for the next go around, ya know?
the part of my brain that cares about abstract concepts like karma and the like will be gone anyway whats the point of grinding it before?
But nobody has to care. It’s not an obligation for them to care. They may have their own problems, maybe tough ones. Point is, no one caring about you is not a reason to think life isn’t worth living. It’s actually pretty normal. And the reason to keep living for the sake of living doesn’t have to be anything. There doesn’t have to be a reason. Do it if you want, don’t if you don’t, but it’s not everyone else’s fault…
I'm going to be honest with you friend. Most people do not think this way and it doesn't help to tell people that. Even people with excellent support systems that have reasons to live beyond family and friends still do put a lot of their reasons to live on other people. Your way of thinking is not the panacea that you think it is.
And why not break the cycle. That’s what I did. I started caring so much about other people. Gives me a purpose.
This is the type of statement that probably should not be in a soundbite. He seems reasonable from the other content I've seen of his, but at face value, to claim objectively some lead "a life that isn't worth living," which would be a subjective determination of the victims themselves, is a very bold statement.
Their life probably is always going to suck, at this rate. When mental illness is involved, you think things are hopeless but there's not really a rational reason for thinking that way. These days a lot of people are genuinely looking towards a future that isn't worth living (men and women). But since this is a societal problem, maybe change is on the horizon. The more people that feel this way, the more likely things will change on a societal level.
From my non-medical armchair perspective, when a society reaches a point where a large portion of the population has zero realistic opportunity for meaningful progress combined with absolutely nothing left to lose... change, with the loud and fervent fight it takes, is imminent. There are many, many people who are reaching the point of desperation. They see no future, and they are repeatedly told that they don't deserve one (in one way or another)... mental illness may very well evolve out of that desperation for many, but many others remain desperate but rational, angry, and sick of watching the disparity grow. Those people are a danger to the status quo. As well they should be. I'm not advocating for violent class rebellion. But if it happens, it'll be for damn good reason. Going to be an interesting next decade or two, one way or another.
One data point, a friend, had quite logically determined his life was not worth living and was never going to get better. He was not depressed, at worst incredibly pessimistic. But the details of his particular situation did not present a path to a better future. I can believe the statistic presented.
Might be out of my element here but is depression always pathological? Also how could this guy even know if the brain is malfunctioning or not? I didn’t think we were that advanced yet. Like I know we can do brain scans and stuff but that’s not like a perfect picture of what’s going on. Edit: also, if they see life as not worth it, then that would indicate that their cost/benefit analysis is malfunctioning which is a symptom of depression.
I can heavily relate to this. I was thinking this just the other day, that I have no more happy endings (romance, great jobs, excellent life experiences, etc...) and really what's the point. How do you 'treat' that.......fuck good luck
Honestly same. I’m making decent money so I don’t have to worry about that, but I don’t know what I wanna do with my life. After my last relationship, I’m not interested in dating at this time. I have hobbies but they’re more or less to just pass the time. I haven’t thought about “ending it”, but I do know I at least want to live so that I don’t make my mom sad.
Hobbies have always been to pass the time and make life more fun.
Yeah, they're literally called "pastimes."
I always think about my mom too. I could never do it as long as she's alive. The moment I don't have that burden I don't really know, maybe by then I would have another anchor. Same way, I'm not in the business of dating, too much hustle for nothing in the long run and I'm not one of those who "enjoy the ride". Either the effort leads to something or I'm wasting time and energy that I can put on productive things so I don't feel like I'm wasting my life. If I could produce kids I'd be a single dad, but I can't and even if I had one that could turn into a custody battle. It's not always like that but the chances are too high, specially since I would need to have a kid on a shorter relationship now due to age. I know I couldn't live knowing I did that to a kid, it would destroy me, that for sure would kill me.
Similar situation, although I'm married... and kind of wish I was not, but outside of that seems similar. Got the call today too that my dad is on his deathbed so getting ready to go deal with that, but overall I try to live my Mr. Peanutbutters words: "The universe is a cruel, uncaring void. The key to being happy isn't a search for meaning. It's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually, you'll be dead."
I think it’s important to realize that if it’s not mental illness, it can be changed, but you’ll have to change something, too. You’ll have to change something you’re doing to get on a different path and get a different result. There are times where I’ve felt “depressed” but felt it wasn’t internal, it was external. I had to make a lot of difficult changes, but I got on a better path and now I have pieces in my life that bring me joy.
You can't find things to enjoy on a daily basis? A tasty meal, a satisfying workout, a challenge bested, new knowledge achieved?
A succulent Chinese meal ?
DON’T TOUCH MY PENIS
DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
Just being that gentleman! That's a life goal worth striving for
Get your hand off my penis!
Ah, I see you know your judo well.
Those are great and all, but then tomorrow comes, and you have to do it again. That meal isn't as tasty, that workout doesn't burn as good. why do I have to do something challenging *everyday*? And then tomorrow comes...
100% this. I was all for gogogo. Get my life together and really start saving for my future. I work in the construction field in greenhome practice inspections. I talk to builders. They go over housing costs. One of the builders told me it cost 100k for the one acre lot. 80k for the lot prep(county requires for ground water protection) He said I’m almost 200k in and hasn’t even started the house . Home ownership isn’t going to happen in my life. Were all going to rent forever. I feel like there’s no endgame anymore. Vacation isn’t even in the cards anymore. Like. So I just work work work and die? Dating is a challenge of always bettering yourself in hopes that a women will like the career you have and that it will be enough to keep them around. Marriage isn’t worth it anymore. So in the big picture all you have to look forward to in the next 30 years is….a better car and a 800sf house where the bathroom is in the kitchen…. I get the option to just want to peace out
That sounds like depression talking. Overcoming challenges gives life meaning.
Well unless you can reverse my cirrhosis, this "challenge" doesn't get to be overcome. I got fuck all to look forward to and you want to say it's going to get better?
Everyone and everything is dying. All our bodies are slowly failing. I’m not saying you should desperately cling to life on your deathbed, or bank everything on the chance of getting a transplant. But the fact that you know how your body is failing gives you a chance of accepting the end, maybe even planning it, and making the most of right now, in spite of the challenges.
By creating opportunities where those ambitions may be possible? There’s always a way to improve your life.
I don't want it to come over condescending or patronizing, please imagine me talking in the friendliest voice, because I mean it. Excellent life experiences is a subjective thing. We internalized what they ought to be from the popular media, meanwhile a monk living a life in a monastery will have no romance or career, but can have excellent life experiences from community and meaningful work. If you're relatively healthy, then community and meaningful work make more than 50% of the excellent life experiences. You don't need great jobs, yachts, and even romance is much more likely to happen once you start spending more time around people face to face through community of meaningful work. I wholeheartedly wish you find it. "What we want and what we need are not the same thing".
Definitely check out Dr. K (aka HealthyGamerGG) on Youtube/Twitch if you're not familiar with him, especially if you are a male like 16-35
I’m a woman, I don’t game, and I am a subscriber. I am raising sons too, so I appreciate the knowledge and perspective.
Did you check out his book be recently released "How to raise a healthy gamer"? It may have valuable insight for you and you definitely supporting a good cause if you buy it.
I've only seen a handful of his videos, but it seems the majority (at least recently) aren't about gaming, but general psychology. It's a great channel.
Males over 35 need this, too. I’m in my late 40’s and he’s been amazing.
Thx for this - found and followed. He’s got some good stuff.
Why not keep it in the app Dr k has his own subreddit r/healthygamergg :)
Since this was an out of context clip I was trying to direct people towards his long form content, but you are also correct
I had no idea, thank you!
I have listened to him for a while, and I think what he does can be very valuable - I.E: being a male role model for disenfranchised young men that would be tempted to turn to insular, toxic communities. However, I can't help but feel these days he doesn't approach it the best way. A fair bit of the things he says recently can be more of a reinforcement for his audience's mindset rather than relating their concerns.
>A fair bit of the things he says recently can be more of a reinforcement for his audience's mindset rather than relating their concerns. IDK, I see it more as him just not bullshitting with people. He still gives actionable advice and speaks on things from the perspective he has as a doctor and gamer and male who has been in similar positions/mindstates but you are correct in that lately he has done less "sugarcoating" as is evidenced by this clip. I've been a fan/following for a good while and it feels like he has just gotten to the point now where he has so much content out that makes it very obvious what his intentions are when he speaks that he just doesn't care about people misconstruing him as there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary if you just Google him.
I would recommend it highly to women as well. Women need to hear the struggle of men and be moved to action. The gender wars need to end. The competition for toughest and longest suffering needs to end. We need to actively and passionately support men and women in their struggles. Of all ages. With all levels of emotional intelligence. We need to love men openly and actively.
I'm not a man but I've had this argument a million times with people. If my life is objectively shitty, it would be illogical NOT to be depressed. People do not like to acknowledge this.
He termed this as "Shitty life syndrome". It is very important to distinguish between this and clinical depression as people suffering from the first fall through the medical system because from a medical perspective they are not ill.
Also from a male perspective many of the issues that cause 'shitty life syndrome' are issues some men have been programmed not to talk or complain about. Long hours with no breaks or social time, being financially responsible for your family while not being able to provide, and other real world problems that don't typically fall under the umbrella of 'depressive symptoms' so rather than opening up about them men have a tenancy of bottling everything up until it kills you.
People can never fully remove themselves from their own perspective and interests. Saying that to someone can provoke a response from their own world view thinking about their own values, etc. That’s why friend advice can be kind but useless.
Exactly. It's not always that you have a brain issue, in some cases life just sucks. This is one of the reasons I really like Dr. K. He's one of the few that actually tries to improve peoples lives.
Right. The problem is how easy it is to get SSRIs. Life can just be shitty, but if I tell that to a psychiatrist I am put on a happy pill that isn’t a cure for how shitty my life is. We need to start looking at treatment through a different lens than the biomedical model. People need a place, they need community and I’m not talking about nice neighbors and a book club.
To be fair, nice neighbours and a book club is actually a pretty good start towards a community.
"Happiness is a choice. Just change your perspective, bro!"
aka shit life syndrome
What’s the point?? I go to work for money that isn’t worth even half what it used to be. Only to afford my basic human needs. If I can’t afford my basic human needs then I damn sure can’t afford my hobbies. I’m addicted to screens. I wanna be a leaf in a tree, a stone in a river, a flower in a field. I hate being me and hate what the world is and has become. I tried taking my life once and still don’t understand why I’m still here…
I think a lot of people feel this way but suicide is scary because of the unknown
Do you mean unknown because the suicide might not be successful, or unknown in not knowing what comes after, if anything, if you get the job done?
I think he means the latter. That's definitely what that means for me.
It's scary because it's final. If your life sucks at the moment, there is a possibility that it will get better some time in the future. And there is literally nothing else you will experience afterwards. So you might as well try, no matter how hopeless it seems at the moment, because you really don't have anything better to do.
Viktor Frankl speaks on this topic in his book “Man’s Search For Meaning”. I thought to myself if he could find meaning and a reason to live throughout the Holocaust, spending time in concentration camps, and losing his family then perhaps I can do the same with my objectively easier life, even if it’s hard to me sometimes.
Not only that but sometimes shit can get way better. I’m an old man now but I hated being 20-27 so fucking bad. It got a lot better. Not at all what I thought it might be, but better.
There's the term "Bilanzsuizid" in german, i'm not quite sure about the translation to english, but it is about people that look at their life and in the review come to the conclusion that it is just not worth living anymore. The things don't need to be connected to mental health, like when someone goes bankrupt with his company and he loses everything, he goes so much down in debt that even when he'd work the entire rest of his life all the time, he could never get out of debt again. And that's just one example, there are a lot more things than can lead up to this point. For me, well, i got bipolar disorder, alcoholism, drug addiction, going to be homeless... life sucks, man. It really sucks. I'm not so sure if it is worth living anymore, but still, i have not crossed the point of no return.
It apparently directly translates as "balance sheet suicide" which seems to fit the description you give pretty well.
Yeah a "bilanz" is the fazit, the conclusion, the end of a review and other terms in english. Just with a bank account, the term is used there too, for your positive- and negative stuff like income and debt.
Agree
Based Dr. K. You can’t therapy out of poverty/homelessness
Well of course it would be hard to be happy when everything around you has gone wrong.
we don't need drugs, we need purpose, meaning and to feel wanted. There's an incredible book that helped me tremendously by Johan Hari called Lost Connections, I'd highly highly recommend it to anyone struggling with depression or for people you know who are suffering.
Drugs are easier to find lmao
Thanks for this!
Viktor flankl survived the Holocaust because he made his objective to see his wife again. He talks a lot about that in his book, "a man's search for meaning". He also created cognitive behavioral therapy
This is very relatable unfortunately. Not there yet, but wouldn't be surprised if that belief creeps in one day.
Definately the exact message I need to hear right now.
The validation is genuinely good
Hmm, even if you come to the perfectly logical conclusion that life is not worth it right now, doesn’t mean that you can’t be mistaken about your prediction for the future. I can look back on my depressed period with suicidal ideation 10 years ago and confidently say I am glad that I’m still around. Because I genuinely enjoy being alive now, and have been enjoying it the last 5 years. I hopefully have about 40 years ahead of me and I don’t see any of them getting as bad as where I came from, so I’m awaiting them with open arms. Once in a while, I think back on that period and I always think what a complete waste it would have been if I would have missed out on the past 5 years, and the future. I guess it was curiosity that pulled me through. Like, back then I wouldn’t mind if I died, death would come at some point anyway, so I wanted to see what would happen when I waited for death. Now that things have changed, I don’t want to die at all. It’s okay to feel validated, but please try to look at it from my perspective as well. I wish you all the best.
What’s wrong? For what it’s worth I think this guy means FROM THE PERSON SUFFERING’s POV. They’ve convinced themselves they have a life way living with no way out. Whether or not this is actually true is a whole other story (and is more than likely not actually the case)
I mean, if he’s talking about from their POV… um, no shit. That’s obvious. It’s why they want to die after all.
Improving people’s material conditions does wonders for their mental health. Basic Guarenteed income would do more for suicide than most medications I bet
So would fixing the housing crisis. Economically speaking, the housing crisis is completely solvable. But there's no political will to do it.
This right here. As a young adult who was saving for a house before covid, it is so disheartening to see that I'm farther away from getting a house than when I started saving. It just feels so hopeless sometimes.
Both my father and step-father committed suicide. I had to clean up the latter and almost did myself a couple times in the decade I spent pickling myself afterwards. I was fortunate to finally get trauma specific treatment for the CPTSD and also sober up while working with various support groups and organizations. I’ve spent a lot of late nights with people on the phone and what I always say to them is what I’ll say below: There are three main indicators on whether someone is seriously at risk of committing suicide. 1.) They feel trapped 2.) They feel like people would be better off without them and 3.) They have a plan Having been there myself, I’m intimately familiar with the blinders that depression and ideation create. And it legitimately feels like things won’t ever change and it’s going to be that way forever. But let’s take some time to think about these three. 1.) Feeling trapped - You’re never as trapped as you think you are. If you’re feeling tied down by a shitty job, or a bad home life, having to support kids/parents/etc, or being stuck in a town or friend circle that’s toxic as hell… You can leave all of those. You may be unemployed, but that’s fixable - being dead isn’t. You might abandon your family and move to Costa Rica, you may be considered a shitty spouse/father but that’s fixable-being dead isn’t, and is almost certainly worse for them in the long run. Before you write it all off, just gtfo of there. If it’s making you that miserable, chances are you’re living other people’s values and not your own. You’ve got time to find new values, but not if you’re not around. 2.) Feeling like people would be better off without you - Take it from someone who’s fathers both said the same thing verbatim… having a loved one (or even just a tolerated family member) kill themselves changes you on a molecular level forever. I’ve seen it time and time again. Children never get their spark back, partners walk around in a malaise years later. Mothers and fathers sit around waiting out their own clocks. It forces every person close to you to stare down an unanswerable question, and that floating question mark will color everything they do and experience for the rest of their lives. Our survival instincts are so strong, that our brain’s basically short-circuit when trying to comprehend how someone can just delete themselves. They study suicide in clusters, because the act of one person committing suicide essentially gives the people around them (specifically their children) permission to entertain the idea. Children have a 300% higher likelihood of committing suicide themselves when a parent models it as an example. Like it or not, it’s an option now for everyone touched by it. No amount of money, struggles, pride, etc will match the trauma imposed upon the people that survive. No one is better off in the aftermath. The pain doesn’t go away, it just gets spread around and they’ll carry it for the rest of their lives. 3.) Having a plan - I’m not talking about passively driving over a bridge and having an intrusive thought. Or occasionally thinking “man, it would kinda be nice to just not exist”. Those are normal things to think. It’s the whole “Stare too long at the abyss and the abyss stares back” kinda thing. A plan means specific actions, a method, a note, etc and it’s one of the most closely guarded things an ideating person will hold. The best thing I can relate here is that you’re not alone or terminally unique here. I’ve had a plan too. If I’m really on the edge, I’ll walk through my plan with the person or discuss different methods and the efficacy/failure rate of each one. I don’t even have to be told their plan, the goal is to let them know they’re not alone. They’re not terminally broken or exiled for feeling this way. Thousands upon thousands of people have these feeling. Most people at one point or another in their life will have similar or adjacent thoughts. Some have them for years on end, but miraculously grind out another day. I felt that way everyday for a period of about 2.5-3 years. I’m incredibly fortunate to have found resources that helped me climb out of that. Hell, one of the first support groups I walked into had a couple old timers joking back and forth saying “goddamn, I wanted to kill myself every damn day for years but it turns out I just needed to sober up/get the right meds/therapy etc” and for some reason hearing that out loud gave me the first real relief I’d had in years. I’d thought if I’d mentioned it to a therapist or doctor they’d press a red button under their desk and haul me away in a strait jacket, but these salty old men gave me permission to relax my face for the first time in ages. I did therapy, I sobered up, I got the right med combo (finally), did trauma specific therapy (EMDR saved my damn life), worked through some codependent/generational trauma stuff, and have somehow managed to carve out a pretty damned good life for myself since. But I wouldn’t have believed you for a second if you’d told me that back then. Don’t quit too soon, you might be selling yourself short.
Honest question, Why does it have to be deemed a controversial statement to say what has been going on for a long time regarding depression and suicide, not just for men, but also women? Support is often unhelpful in cases where people ACTUALLY need help, and very often those who need help don't reach out and suffer in silence. Society often ignores this, yet stupidly wonders why it happens.
Women have more help and support readily available. A friend of mine was recently turned away from a group that meets to discuss and help with depression. He was turned away because he is a man.
I was a victim of sexual assault as a teenager. I've been *literally* laughed at by 3 separate healthcare "professionals". There is no help, there is nothing for men who have been sexually assaulted by a woman. It's just the punchline to a joke.
Woman don't have a monopoly on sexual abuse. Went through it for 10 yrs before I could get away. He's dead now and I'm still stuck with the trauma. My wife at the time when I finally told her within the same day used it against me and asked me if I was gay. Mind you we already 3 children. We literally have no one to turn to. There is no support system. Most days ending it all crosses my mind at least once and I've come real close one time where i'd basically cancelled all my obligations and was preparing papers for my kids to get everything. I would never put that burden on them though to have knowledge of what I went through and have assured their lives were never touched by anything like this. Honestly I probably should have skipped this thread but was just too curious. It's gonna be one of those nights where I need to stop off and get some memory erasing elixirs to sleep.
Well, if its any comfort your experience isn't unique. I was sexually abused as an 8 year old by a maid for 4 years. 25 odd years later Im still scarred to all hell. And you're quite right, accessing resources feels impossible and nobody really understands the damage it does or have the resources to care even if they can manage sympathy. I dont know which country you're in but check out RAINN and 1in6. Though I'm not convinced talking it out can always help. Maybe accept your scars and use your life to protecting kids from the damage in any way you can help.
Often times it's because men are often told "Men who show emotions are weak" "Tough it out" "Be a man" and keep it inside. Eventually, something has to give. Nobody is less of a person when reaching out and asking for help. Society has clearly shown us they care more about women's mental health, which leaves men finding it harder to get support, and often are discriminated against.
I disagree to a significant extent about the first half of what you said, even if I agree entirely with the last part. Sometimes men and women simply need different kinds of support, and different kinds of mindsets. Yes, 'men who show emotions are weak' is not as helpful of a statement compared to 'you're strong, stay tough - you can push this back, here's some practical advice and good habits to build off' ... but neither is the sort of 'yes, you're broken, here take some benzos and show up to expensive therapy to cry your feelings out once a week to someone who doesn't say much useful' approach that seems to be the default the vast majority of the time.
If a man is struggling he’s broken, if a woman is struggling she’s in need of support. Society at best ignores men, at worst it actively hates us.
The suicide rate for men is at least 3 to 4 times higher than women. From my experience, people can't wait to kick you while you're down. Women are human beings, men are human doings. If you have nothing to show for your worth you can go die in a ditch for all anyone cares.
More women attempt suicide, while more men “succeed” in the attempt.
because making it a gendered issue keeps people debating each other rather than accept its nearly the same for everyone at a certain point in life as a woman with no family who's faced abuse, I have no idea where this supposed help is that Im obligated to get as a woman. or the automatic belief in my situation. truthfully, if you lose your family, you're pretty much a nobody with no reason for anyone to support you because foundationally humans do not care about each other. that's why we depend on the government to provide social services to people like me with no support system. once you hit a certain level in society, gender, race, sexuality etc makes little difference as you systemically carry less worth than someone, anyone, with a built in, healthy support system. but the bonus of being a woman is being told how much more help and support you get to also live in the reality that you get nothing but questions and made into a social pariah.
On a sociological level women are more likely to reach out for help and therefore more likely to actually get the help. This is specifically a problem in men because that was the group that the speaker had for data. I don't think it's controversial anywhere besides a reddit comment section. But going off of statistic answers, again generally speaking not saying it applies to everyone, women are more likely to fail suicide attempts because many times it will be an attempt to reach out for help or signal a warning. Men are more likely to succeed in committing suicide because they don't reach out and generally perform the act with the intent to succeed if it's at that point. Disclaimer because I feel it's going to be needed. This isn't my anecdotal experience, this is based on sociology and psychology. It's not foolproof and absolutely not meant to be a blanket statement. It is supported by data and research though and therefore I thought it would be an appropriate response to your question. Edit: Here's a link to a study for anyone interested. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3539603/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3539603/) It's an important topic to focus on men and women differently because, like they said in the conclusion, there are implications to the methods that could prevent this from happening. It seems like the video was concurring with the idea therapy may be more effective in "survivors/attempters." This could just be a variation in data, but even the sample size has 114 women and only 33 males. Men choose more violent methods and another way of looking at it is that you are less likely to find a second chance to help them once they've set their mind. Edit 2: If you're going to downvote then I'll give you a reason. Stop being fucking sensitive and read about the fact. Your personal experience and anecdotes aren't data or research. Get educated and learn about it if you care enough to take an objective statement personally.
Dr. Alok Kanojia is a fantastic guy. You've ever had some questions gnawing on you but don't know how to express them? He pinpoints them and then explains beautifully. I've been following him for about a year and I believe i've made huge improvements on myself. I wish struggling men would find this guy instead of redpill communities...
I was in the rp community when it was still just a Reddit thing. The Pre-Tate/RP influencer community genuinely had good advice for young men to get their mind right. Hell, its the reason Im even open to stuff like this Now? Total cesspit on a path of shit
Controversial, but very IAF opinion. And at 49 seconds, not wasteful of time ;) EDIT: his opinion is most suicidal men don't have a medical condition like depression (treatable with meds and/or therapy), but a serious lack of things to live for. Zero motivation. Empty lives. Implying massive lifestyle ~~changes~~ improvements are necessary more than medical treatment. Interesting, (as fuck)
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intra anal fertilization
Yo imagine the therapist is just like "yeah no your life sucks, I totally agree"
Better than you telling them that you’re depressed because you’re homeless, have no childcare, losing your job, car is unreliable and they reply with, “have you tried meditation?”
You jest, but I had a therapist tell me this exact thing.
Kinda confusing communication. Suicide is not a mental illness. And he's right about research showing over 50% don't have a history of mental illness, but history of mental illness is still the biggest factor. The quoted part can appear a bit cold to those unfamiliar with the area, but he's basically saying they feel hopeless. It's that feeling hopeless, helpless, trapped by circumstances, that can happen to anyone, not just those with mental illness.
I've watched a bunch of Dr. K's content and imho the guy is absolutely spot on. Any discussion on this can't be summed up in a 50 second clip, and it's obvious that this is being presented without full context.
Age, loneliness, poor health and poor wealth can catch us all.
Imo this is most 'mental illness' these days. Antidepressants and the like are meant to fix chemical imbalances, but i feel most often the imbalance is caused by our environment and not physiological constraint. Giving people the tools (improve society, encourage therapy and make it accessible) is the appropriate treatment. Pharmaceuticals should be used for people who are genetically provided bogus brain chemistries, or for people at risk of doing damage to themselves or others while they pursue therapy and life coaching. (ADD falls into a similar category for me)
Yeah, unfortunately, sometimes death isn't the worst outcome and more people need to come to that realization and stop being so overly "positive".
Hey. Itza me and my existential dread. Throughout my life I was always known as the high best high energy happy dude. I genuinely love this life and feel blessed to experience it but man as I’ve aged I’ve been crushed by the knowledge I’ll never own anything or have a future that isn’t met with hardships and struggle. I was born into a poor situation. History of alcoholism and no support. No more family left and friends off doing their own thing with partners. Even when I date I feel like a fraud cause I genuinely feel happy with myself. Exercise and maintain whatever this is as a life and make sure my dog gets all the adventures but know I can’t support anyone else. Think it’s futile to be with someone who sees a future when I barely see a tomorrow. Sucks to suck but I ain’t planning on giving up anytime til I’m called to the great beyond. But know I’ll own nothing and die and be forgotten soon after. Use to be where one could work hard and make something. But working hard doesn’t offer anything of value anymore. Take the overtime? have a side hustle? You mean constantly keep working to have money to survive. I get by on my minimum and don’t splurge beyond a fancy meal for me and my dog from time to time. Oh well. Maybe down the line in another generation people who are in power will actually work to help those of us who don’t get that support and try their damndest to make something of themselves but it doesn’t feel like it’s Happening now.
He's probably right. Many men, especially from modern societies point of view, aren't living worthwhile lives. This is a big hurdle for young men that do not feel worthy, or up to the par set for them. Whether "by themselves" or by others.
Its funny, because what if your clinically depressed AND your life is seriously shit. What else am i supposed to do
Take some psychedelics and figure out a path for your life.
Fuck your feelings, man speaks the truth
If you accept just world is a fallacy, then you kind of have to accept that some people are genuinely in a position where they are never going to turn things around. Just as some people can roll 20s in genetics and in opportunities, some people will role 0s.
Honestly most people should just go watch the whole interview to give them the context. This interviewer has a massive amount of helpful dialogue with all sorts of people over his career. ‘Diary of a CEO’ is all over YouTube
I beive this 100% for nost people.
He's right I think, sort of, but it depends a little bit on how you define rational. Given a certain set of facts about your life, you might come to an arguably rational conclusion of suicide. How you get to that set of facts might still be irrational though, possibly indicative of some kind of mental illness (which might not be diagnosed, hence no statistic).
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I had this happen to me. It was so... LIBERATING to hear someone tell me that. You have no idea how nice it is to have someone just tell you that "yes.. your life sucks and I would probably feel and want to kill myself in your situation as well". I wasn't being encouraged to. I was walked back from the proverbial edge. But rather than someone just tell me to keep fighting and that it'd get better if was awesome to hear "your life, right now, it BLOWS".
Oh, oh, I soooo feel this. Just made my therapist cry when I brought it up last week. My question to her was: "What is the point of tomorrow?" She didn't know how to answer me. We left it at that. For me, there really is no point that I can grasp. The thing is, I can even work out mathematically why I, and everyone else in my life, is better off with me dead. The only thing that gets me up and keeps me going is knowing that the psychological damage caused to my kids wouldn't be outweighed by the financial gain. That and the drive to create something better. >!The point of tomorrow is that there is a tomorrow.!<
I never knew that 'mental illness' literally meant something is wrong with your brain, like an arm that's broken. I just thought it meant feeling down because of something in the mind.
Lol people who get diagnosed with mental illness have been saying something along these lines for ages and gotten nothing but gaslighting from psychiatrists
The malfunction comes from the suicidal thoughts, not the other way around. For example, not even knowing how or where to actually make friends, explore interests, or otherwise cultivate your life because you have been checked out for so long. Source: suicidal thoughts
It’s not success or lack of opportunity making people miserable. It’s social isolation. People in much worse conditions are much happier because they live close to family and friends. We all too often live in self imposed isolation.
I take this as: Depression is the proper response to a depressing life. You’re not crazy. Your life is just not fulfilling you. But the good news is that you have incredible power to change your life. Don’t discount the exponential growth that comes from small, consistent changes. You may not be able to heal completely, or become wealthy, (in other words, achieve every single dream you’ve ever had) but you can make your life enjoyable. Find what changes you can make and start making them today.
What study
"The CDC's mortality records for 2017 reveal over 50% of deaths by suicide were by people with no known psychiatric illness." [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33351435/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33351435/)
If your life is shit, your future going to be shit, it's pretty logical to feel shit.