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When the alternative is the plane directing itself into the ground at speed because the AOA sensor failed, there's no backup (extra cost option), and the software is attempting to be "helpful" by preventing a "stall" that isn't happening... well, I don't mind the thoroughness.
I remember reading through the timeline of that crash, increasing horror rising in me the further I got. It's the insanity of it. Mix of mechanical and software failure that no human pilot could have overcome, probably. It's terrifying.
It was overcome, at least once. It differed from the ‘normal’ stabilizer runway (which was the procedure needed to correct it) only in how it ran the trim in pulses rather than continuously. One of the crews that crashed eventually worked this out too, but it was too far gone by the time they cut the stab trim and they weren’t able to move the manual trim wheel because they were going too fast.
Obviously it was woefully negligent system design and training implementation, but it *does* underscore how ‘that’s weird, why is it doing that?’ is an only-if-time-permits thought in a flight deck. If X is going crazy and fighting to crash the plane, kill X now and leave the ‘why’ for later.
There is a reason that the airlines that suffered crashes weren't first tier ones. Those pilots should have followed the runaway trim checklist from memory (which results in disabling trim inside a few seconds and using the manual wheels).
This doesn't excuse Boeing, but that was one layer of the Swiss cheese that failed.
Is that those max8 (?) crashes?
I read that one time it was fixed because there just happened to be an older more experienced pilot in the cockpit and he pulled the fuse or something for that system because he realized it was malfunctioning.
The issue is the system was designed in such a way that in certain circumstances, even if it was recognized quickly, the pilots may not be able to prevent a crash. That's what happened in the Ethiopian Airlines Max crash - the first officer pretty much immediately recognized the issue but they were "along for the ride" at that point - they fought valiantly but they and their passengers had already been sentenced to death by Boeing.
That's so scary and brutal. I couldn't imagine going down in a plane while you have several minutes to just be terrified and fully aware of your impending death.
Semiconductor equipment engineer. Changed a simple timeout setting from 15 to 30 minutes. Similar to you, implementation took 15 minutes. Testing was ~4 months.
I'm into other software. But the fun managers thinks everything is some arbitrary web site. They just can't understand the need to test and that embedded programming isn't like changing the presentation layer on a Web site. And that performance isn't about spinning up more server instances - there are very hard limits on available RAM and CPU cycles. And too late is too late!
They do understand that users gets angry about failing infrastructure. But not the needs to make sure the infrastructure does not fail.
Ah yes! Software that, if it breaks badly enough, the plane is grounded. "This thing here is bold but it should be underlined, immediate fix required! And while you are at it, add this other thing from the wishlist. Can we get the new release today, so we can push production tomorrow?"
as a IoT-cloud-crud-blah cowboy, avionics software development baffles me. First thought: That must be incredibly cool! Second thought: That must be incedibly boring, with all the regulations and stuff. Is it a bit of both?
Pretty much. Lockout/tagout procedures (the little red tags) alone functionally don't have a time limit on how long it could take. There's multiple points of approval and that depends on multiple individuals being available or even present. I once had to wait two hours to get a signature just to start tagging out just so *someone else* could start work just because someone was in a meeting.
One guy's meeting turned a three hours maintenance into something that spanned two days.
lockout/tagout is a huge deal but I'm glad. I got a boner for comprehensive safety procedures.
edit: oh and then you gotta tag out certain systems so certain spaces are safe to tag out other systems and then if two divisions have work/maintenance/testing and one needs it off but the other needs it on and uhagdughjahk haskdj k
it's a logistics nightmare that most places do very little to prepare for.
It's crucial for any equipment regardless of industry. I've seen some shit where people don't take it seriously and get degloved, loss of limbs, or loss of life.
I have worked as an industrial EMT for almost 10 years now. 90% of the major injuries I have seen have been LOTO violations. The last 10% are split between falls, angle grinders (almost always without their guard or handle), and box knives.
I don't doubt it. We are super strict about our grinders. We enforce a full face shield and if the guards are not in place they don't use it. Zero tolerance termination for any infraction. If you lean over a machine that's running without LOTO, termed. We supply hex armor sleeves and gloves that are needle and stab resistant. It helps with some of the box cutter threats but people still find a way.
As I train everyone I tell them that I'd rather them go home without a job than injured or dead. I want everyone to go home the same way they came in. They don't get paid enough to risk their lives. (Regardless of pay I will always say this). I'm paying them to be safe.
Yeah, it's not only reasonable but absolutely essential. The documentaries on air accidents where they can pin down a bolt back to where it was forged and produced (and all the information that can come from even that), let alone when and how it was installed is absolutely mind-blowing to a layman like me.
Thank you to all the engineers (software included) that work in aviation for keeping us safe!
I work on helicopters, and it's honestly hilarious how often the documentation for a job takes longer than fixing the discrepancy.
Checks and Balances. Responsibility is paramount. Safety first. And whatever other aviation corporate jargon.
I get it’s a hassle and bureaucracy is rarely optimized, but that type of paperwork is how we ensure accountability, so that when 280 people die, some guy doesn’t get to shrug his shoulders and say “must not have been me who forgot to XYZ”. Ideally the paperwork trips him up in advance and he is fired years before he kills people.
The number of plane crashes caused by the most boneheaded of maintainance lapses is just wild.
I do a job with reams of paperwork, but I have seen the alternative and the reams of paperwork is way better.
I was on an off road race team that owned a helicopter. The pilot was talking about changing out a landing light and how expensive it was to get it replaced. I said why can’t you just get a really high quality racing light and use that. He said “Because the FAA doesn’t want people bolting just any old light to an aircraft that flies thousands of feet in the air.” That was my ah ha moment with regulations.
We have a job that takes about 5 minutes to do physically. The paperwork/ desk work takes about 25 mins if you know what you're doing. If you don't, it can take 45+. And God forbid there's a problem with the serial numbers.
I think if you didn't care, you'd still end up with a somewhat serviceable engine. What modern car manufacturers are doing is intentional, to make it difficult to do basic maintenance yourself. Yay capitalism.
I hope someone comes along and offers me a low cost, easily serviceable way to shove the fucking headlight replacement up my ass rather than taking the whole car off the frame just to get to it
Capitalism is working as intended, improving the fitness of their products to the desires of the market.
It just so happens the critical thinking capacity of the average consumer is about on par with a chihuahua.
I had a car once where instead of having to work your way into the head lamp in order to change a bulb, you could just take one long pin out and then slide that whole lamb assembly out. That was just one amazing solution to one of the most irritating things ever.
Not sure if that was just a random joke or not, but most BMW plugs are literally on top of the engine. Just changed 6 plugs and coil packs 2 months ago in about 30 minutes 😉. Go pick on Ford or Subaru lol
I was literally thinking wow I wish I had that much room and access when changing the spark plugs on my old wagoneer. Whoever thought putting some of them right up against the firewall with basically no clearance must have hated people or just been a madman.
As someone with an interest in horror/thriller films I am waiting to see how long it is now until someone utilises this as part of a murder in a movie.
it's actually really, really easy to accidently kill someone by doing something that requires almost no effort, like removing a lockout tag. Which is why lockout safety and procedures are drilled into your head from the start of learning any trade.
That’s why I was surprised these were just little clip ons, I could see that getting snagged and falling off accidentally. Of course it’s a total fringe scenario and I assume they have other safeguards in place, but I’ve never seen a form of LOTO that didn’t require a physical key
Maybe it's not entirely a safety thing? Possibly moreso to prevent damage or something like that.
At least I'd assume anything to do with worker safety would be more substantial.
I work on aircrafts and we can’t have our own personal tools with us on the flightline, it has to be controlled items from a central tool area that is signed out by name. Stops people from leaving their leatherman in an engine on accident.
Those do exist, especially when dealing with high-voltage equipment. I've seen padlocks put on main shutoff levers with a big red "GTFO" flag and only the shift supervisor has the key. A lot of people are still alive today thanks to those locks.
As someone who has picked up severed fingers off the production floor when lock out tag out was generally ignored, it was very relieving to see process followed correctly
The lock out tag outs at the place I worked could only be unlocked using a key that was in another box, which was locked and required a key being held by the supervising staff on site to open. Both the box and lock out tags had the faces of the workers you’d be killing by removing the tags early.
In a union workplace locks are NEVER cut off "early" until the owner is located, because they may have suffered a medical emergency and still be in harms way. The lock photos are so everybody involved in the search knows who they are looking for. If the owner is located but isn't on the premisses, they are typically given a set amount of time to return and remove their lock before management officially becomes involved and paperwork is created to document cutting the lock off, usually in the presence of a union rep. LOTOTO is deadly serious business.
I go thru training for loto every few months, and I hear stories that happen to this day of gruesome deaths that could have been prevented by those tags, or by understanding what those tags mean.
Knew a guy who was an electrician in the Navy. He went to work on the bow sonar array of a surface ship, so he locked/tagged out the power supply and started heading down to it. He was about 10-15 feet behind it, about to go through the final bulkhead door, when it sent out a ping. At 235dB. Had he been any closer, he'd have likely died from internal hemorrhaging. After he was able to stand again, he went back to the control room to find a private contractor who also had to do some work on the sonar array. The contractor saw the lockout/tagout, decided that they couldn't wait to do their work, and proceeded to *disassemble the power supply and bypass the switch* to power it back up so they could run their tests. Eleven levels of hell descended on that person.
Yup. In the Navy, our Quality Assurance program was developed because of the Challenger explosion and our SubSafe program was due to the sinking of the USS Thresher, which is a pretty horrible way to go
There’s a maintenance log book that has warnings, names, dates, reasons, and any other information you can think of for those cb clips.
The first thing you do when you come to an aircraft is to ensure the area/aircraft is safe. The second thing you do is check the maintenance log book.
If someone pulled those clips and activated that system via the control panel while that was being fixed they 100% were not supposed to be there.
Also, it’s highly unlikely they could even activate the systems if they didn’t know to check the log book.
I bet that this is not required because only qualified workers should be in that area.
The whole apron area is more or less locked and I bet the the engine spools up first before even trying to start the ignition.
It’s still a bit scary that they don’t lock them off. In the industrial maintenance trade, you should lock out tag out. In this, someone can just take the tags off and start that bad boy up with your head inside of it…
Wait until you find out that commercial jets like that don't have ignition keys either. In theory "anyone" with access to it could start it up and fly.
There are dozens of checks and steps with at least 4 eyes involved until someone turns the engine start lever from OFF to IDLE.
Some random person did just hop in a passenger plane and took off for a joy ride in Seattle a while back. Dude ended up doing a barrel roll in it before crashing into an island.
yeah, or even like... just RTFM. The startup checklists are generally written specifically enough that someone who had never even been in an airplane before could get one running and moving. You'd crash into shit and/or die right away of course, but that wouldn't stop you from getting it running.
Taking off lockout tags casually without following procedure is almost certainly an instant termination and probably blackballed from ever working in the field again.
Electrical and mechanical safety with machines like this is only treated lightly in the food processing industry. Everywhere else, you have people who have seen fuck-ups get sucked into a machine or die from an electrical short.
We do have LOTO with actual locks but those are typically only used when it will be in place for multiple shifts. Otherwise you trust your coworkers as it’s usually a small group working on a jet. And everyone knows you DO NOT FUCKING TOUCH SOMEONE ELSES LOTO or you will be fired immediately and possibly met in the parking lot by a few disgruntled former coworkers.
What you don’t see is there’s a master list of LOTO in place on the aircraft in a binder or book and a designated employee who ensures it’s done properly.
I had a colleague that bought a used Mercedes at one time. Like, maybe a few years older model, but still fairly new at the time.
Anyway, at one time during lunch, I recalled him *bragging* about a $400 oil change. Like, "This car is so nice, the oil change is $400." Mind you, this was like 10 years ago, too.
Anyway, he got the business from the rest of the group about how paying $400 for an oil change isn't anything to brag about.
He got married and had three kids, and now I'm pretty sure he drives an Altima and his wife drives a minivan.
My old boss collected royles Royce cars. He received a 10k oil change bill which included tire rotation, filters, and a 100 point inspection. They didn't do anything but change the oil and rotate tires and add filters. 9.5k... insane
I know a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend who owns a Mercedes S-class. She took it to the stealership for a spark plug replacement.
You know what the labor costs are for a V8 Mercedes S-class spark plug replacement? $1500. For a 30 minute job that any high-schooler with a torque-wrench could do.
And who's making the money? Not the mechanics. Straight to the car dealer ownership.
That's nuts! The transverse mounted v6 in my Toyota is a BITCH to service the rear 3 plugs on (they're crammed up under the lip of the wiper area and firewall), and that one cost me $50 in labor for a local shop to do the work. Some of the Subaru DOHC engines are also really hard to service the plugs on as well because they're right against the front wheel wells, but even they're like 1/10 that price to get done.
Average is a little below that for maxed out 5-10+ year service mechanics in the US; I'm licensed and type certified (though on regional turboprops and a relatively small operation) in Canada and currently get about $26 USD/hr. Topped out type certified mechanics at one national airline up here get <$40/hr USD. Currently one union fighting the airline to get that bumped up.
The igniter is close to $3k, probably a little less considering the plane in the video is old with old engines. But yeah, any time the plane is not on the ground costs money so it's probably not too far off all things considered.
Most things that are tightened or can vibrate loose.
It's to stop it causing any damage or problems if it vibrates off. There is anti vibration measures but the wire is a fail safe. (afaik)
It's a good question. Aerospace industry is full of stuff like this.
Like the red tags fitted to the (I assume) circuit breaker. They will say "remove before flight" or something and are large and obvious. Thus not easily missed. Not impossible granted.
Those are definitely Lock-Out-Tag-Out clips designed to keep someone from starting the equipment while a technician is in a position to get injured or killed by the machinery. While they'd probably serve the purpose you described that's not the primary purpose of the tags.
Not typically, no, those circuit breakers are your system deactivation. Typically can also placard warning tags on the aircraft's master power switches if you've turned the whole aircraft off to do the work, but typically it's just circuit breakers as there's other power-on work on the rest of the airplane that needs to be done.
We had Lockout/Tagout at my shitty factory that made labels for water bottles. It’s a workplace safety thing, instead of just an aerospace thing.
Anytime powered equipment or machinery is being serviced then the power/controls are supposed to be locked and tagged out.
The safety wire is what holds it in place, its torqued and wired in a way that (when nut to nut) one tightens when the other loosens, or nut to structure) it doesn’t allow it to loosen.
For 90% of hardware on the aircraft yes. Safetying is a means to prevent hardware from loosening due to vibration during operation. What you see in this video is safety wire, but safety cables, castellated nuts with cotter keys, retainer washers, and self-locking nuts are all used as well. Areas where this practice isn't used are typically non critical for flight interior areas of the aircraft.
Pretty much, we call it safety wire and if it can vibrate loose it needs some sort of locking mechanism, so if not safety wire then probably a cotter pin.
That splinter guy was pretty on the money. I actually work with jet engines, so I'm really familiar with it. We call it safety wire. It's used in damn near every torque bolt and line. He's right about it being for vibration. The way you feed it is in a tightening position. So you'll either have it on 2 bolts that tighten opposite directions, or on an anchor point and a bolt. The idea for the 2+ bolts is that if vibration causes one to try and loosen, it'll cause the other to tighten. But since they're torqued to high and specific values, there isn't much tightening that can happen, so the other bolt won't loosen.
Super handy and important, but a long learning process on proper technique. We got a sayin, "if ya ain't bleedin, ya ain't safety wiring." I hope this helped!
I have bad news for you. As an air force jet engine mechanic I can confirm every one of my coworkers was a dumbass. Most of them were damn good mechanics, but dumbass was absolutely on their title.
We have dumbasses but we have tech data and QA to keep them in check.
I’m a ground equipment mechanic. Biggest “jet engine” I ever worked on is a $300k gas turbine engine for a generator no bigger than a cummins diesel.
But I was trained to do KTL’s in my tenure as QA, which are mandatory inspections we had to do for certain maintenance tasks. Reading our workcards and tech orders, any body can figure it out. Backwards safety wire was what I would catch most on F-16 engines. Or FOD in the engine bay, like broken safety wire pigtails or washers.
It’s actually a pretty solid system. You have the journeyman do the big jobs, craftsman “red x” qualified sign the job off after they verify it’s good, then QA comes and inspects it, stamps the forms and signs the job off.
Think of it as the striker used to ignite a blow torch (or even the flint in a lighter). It just has to get it burning, and then the flame stays lit without it during normal operation. Reciprocating engines don't have a continual flame in them, so they need to be reignited with each power stroke. Gasoline engines use a spark plug for each power stroke while diesels use the heat from compression along with the existing heat in the engine to achieve ignition (and can use a glow plug to get enough initial heat when starting). So there's similarities, but also some key differences that make for difference in design.
Just think of a spark plug equivalent to a butt plug. Always sparking as the piston create pressure while the car is running to light the gas to push the pistons back. An igniter is more like a vibrator once you’re done using it you turn it off. Hope this helps.
Not sure of what he put on the ignitor, but the wire is a safety feature. It holds the nut tight, and keeps it from coming loose due to vibrations while flying.
There is so much vibration in an airplane that connectors of all sorts can easily work loose and eventually come apart. The wire prevents the fastener from turning even a little bit.
1) likely anti-seize to prevent the ignitor from getting stuck in there. You do the same with car spark plugs.
2) the wire helps keep the bolt from rotating itself out due to vibration.
They're so (relatively) light, have such low resistance bearings, and foremost, are so well balanced. A small gust of wind is enough to make them spin.
The grease monkeys do good work in general, but you can only cover so much as a single person or a team. The problem is more systemic and its kept as such for profit. Less checks are scheduled, faults from manufacturing are kept hidden from the maintainance end, less mechanics overall are hired to cover shifts, faults that are flagged get buried and corners are cut by higher ups to maintain tight schedules and meet tight budgets.
Thing is that the suits are made aware of various problems but they don't give a fuck as long as profits go up. Air travel has had a stellar record for decades now but all of a sudden the fuckwits in boardrooms have become completely detached from the groundwork and have been rolling profits into stock buybacks instead of maintainance and engineering. And also since boeing itself is a massive military contractor it is kept afloat with huge amonts of public money so they dont have to worry about going under any time soon. Its basically a state funded company with private owners so they can't lose no matter what they do.
Not that it matters to anyone cuz of the meme, but airlines are responsible for maintenance once they purchase the jets. Any of the random maintenance issues that pop up all the time on social media are typically the responsibility of the airline and not the manufacturer.
So for the American side, you need an FAA A&P for starters. Thats between 32 months and 18 months depending on how you get the license.
For that specific task, because the plane goes over water you need the General familiarization course (genfam) for that airframe, and the ETOPS training. After that you need something called the “airworthiness release sign off” to be able to release the plane for flight.
Some stuff might require an inspector which is even more training on top of 5 years minimum experience. Or avionics quals to run tests. It gets complicated..
Europe is different.
I run programs to train AMEs. Two yr program plus two more years apprenticeship. Crazy demand, 6fig salary, great benefits. PM if you want to learn more.
Airlines conduct loads of maintenance in Brazil (and Latin America in general) as because of scheduling the aircraft are parked on the ground anyway. So might still be something to look into if you're the least bit interested
Partly. Another reason is that only well trained people are allowed to fly these things and it is a lot harder to collide with something up int he air than it is to hit a tree down here on the ground.
Yes lack of maintenance and resulting accidents do happen with cars and a lot but the vast majority of car accidents happen because people are shitty drivers.
The fact that they used a regular wrench to attach the cable after using a torque wrench on the igniter makes me think that they aren’t as concerned about over torquing the igniter as much as under torquing it. I couldn’t tell whether the safety wire went through the igniter itself, or just through the fitting.
The igniter lead cap torque is hand tight and one flat with the wrench. The cap can easily be over-torqued and damaged. Once the safety wire is in place it isn't going anywhere.
They'd make a fortune if they added the "Dad Pass" to watch this happen while they wait for a flight. I can already see mine there, hands on hips, smiling approvingly.
I LOVE that they included the Lock-Out-Tag-Out procedure at the beginning and end. Though, I would have liked to have seen actual locks, instead of just clips.
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Cool, I'm headed to the airport to try it out.
Please do not do this on any Delta flight out of Charlotte today......tomorrow is fine. I will already be at my destination.
How'd you know I'm at CLT?
My flight out of Charlotte is delayed right now. They must have tried it...
Quicker than changing them on an alfa romeo v6
I bet the paperwork documenting the maintenance takes about the same length of time as the actual work
"When the weight of the paperwork equals the weight of the plane, we can fly!"
Avionics software engineer here. A 3 line change in the flight code directed by the customer took minutes to implement, months to test and document.
When the alternative is the plane directing itself into the ground at speed because the AOA sensor failed, there's no backup (extra cost option), and the software is attempting to be "helpful" by preventing a "stall" that isn't happening... well, I don't mind the thoroughness.
I remember reading through the timeline of that crash, increasing horror rising in me the further I got. It's the insanity of it. Mix of mechanical and software failure that no human pilot could have overcome, probably. It's terrifying.
It was overcome, at least once. It differed from the ‘normal’ stabilizer runway (which was the procedure needed to correct it) only in how it ran the trim in pulses rather than continuously. One of the crews that crashed eventually worked this out too, but it was too far gone by the time they cut the stab trim and they weren’t able to move the manual trim wheel because they were going too fast. Obviously it was woefully negligent system design and training implementation, but it *does* underscore how ‘that’s weird, why is it doing that?’ is an only-if-time-permits thought in a flight deck. If X is going crazy and fighting to crash the plane, kill X now and leave the ‘why’ for later.
There is a reason that the airlines that suffered crashes weren't first tier ones. Those pilots should have followed the runaway trim checklist from memory (which results in disabling trim inside a few seconds and using the manual wheels). This doesn't excuse Boeing, but that was one layer of the Swiss cheese that failed.
Is that those max8 (?) crashes? I read that one time it was fixed because there just happened to be an older more experienced pilot in the cockpit and he pulled the fuse or something for that system because he realized it was malfunctioning.
The issue is the system was designed in such a way that in certain circumstances, even if it was recognized quickly, the pilots may not be able to prevent a crash. That's what happened in the Ethiopian Airlines Max crash - the first officer pretty much immediately recognized the issue but they were "along for the ride" at that point - they fought valiantly but they and their passengers had already been sentenced to death by Boeing.
That's so scary and brutal. I couldn't imagine going down in a plane while you have several minutes to just be terrified and fully aware of your impending death.
With little consequence.
Oh no, there have been consequences. Consequences for the victims and the whistleblowers that keep dying, just not for Boeing.
Semiconductor equipment engineer. Changed a simple timeout setting from 15 to 30 minutes. Similar to you, implementation took 15 minutes. Testing was ~4 months.
I'm into other software. But the fun managers thinks everything is some arbitrary web site. They just can't understand the need to test and that embedded programming isn't like changing the presentation layer on a Web site. And that performance isn't about spinning up more server instances - there are very hard limits on available RAM and CPU cycles. And too late is too late! They do understand that users gets angry about failing infrastructure. But not the needs to make sure the infrastructure does not fail.
Ah yes! Software that, if it breaks badly enough, the plane is grounded. "This thing here is bold but it should be underlined, immediate fix required! And while you are at it, add this other thing from the wishlist. Can we get the new release today, so we can push production tomorrow?"
as a IoT-cloud-crud-blah cowboy, avionics software development baffles me. First thought: That must be incredibly cool! Second thought: That must be incedibly boring, with all the regulations and stuff. Is it a bit of both?
I'm a QA manager for an IVD medical device. It takes roughly 4 hrs of labor to manufacture cartridges and 8 hrs for the paperwork.
For very good reasons.
Pretty much. Lockout/tagout procedures (the little red tags) alone functionally don't have a time limit on how long it could take. There's multiple points of approval and that depends on multiple individuals being available or even present. I once had to wait two hours to get a signature just to start tagging out just so *someone else* could start work just because someone was in a meeting. One guy's meeting turned a three hours maintenance into something that spanned two days. lockout/tagout is a huge deal but I'm glad. I got a boner for comprehensive safety procedures. edit: oh and then you gotta tag out certain systems so certain spaces are safe to tag out other systems and then if two divisions have work/maintenance/testing and one needs it off but the other needs it on and uhagdughjahk haskdj k it's a logistics nightmare that most places do very little to prepare for.
The lockout tag out stuff is so crucial. No airline wants a plane grounded for two days to clean the remains of a mechanic out of a turbine.
It's crucial for any equipment regardless of industry. I've seen some shit where people don't take it seriously and get degloved, loss of limbs, or loss of life.
I have worked as an industrial EMT for almost 10 years now. 90% of the major injuries I have seen have been LOTO violations. The last 10% are split between falls, angle grinders (almost always without their guard or handle), and box knives.
I don't doubt it. We are super strict about our grinders. We enforce a full face shield and if the guards are not in place they don't use it. Zero tolerance termination for any infraction. If you lean over a machine that's running without LOTO, termed. We supply hex armor sleeves and gloves that are needle and stab resistant. It helps with some of the box cutter threats but people still find a way. As I train everyone I tell them that I'd rather them go home without a job than injured or dead. I want everyone to go home the same way they came in. They don't get paid enough to risk their lives. (Regardless of pay I will always say this). I'm paying them to be safe.
Which sounds unreasonable, until you Google what happens when an engine cowling is left open in flight
Yeah, it's not only reasonable but absolutely essential. The documentaries on air accidents where they can pin down a bolt back to where it was forged and produced (and all the information that can come from even that), let alone when and how it was installed is absolutely mind-blowing to a layman like me. Thank you to all the engineers (software included) that work in aviation for keeping us safe!
I work on helicopters, and it's honestly hilarious how often the documentation for a job takes longer than fixing the discrepancy. Checks and Balances. Responsibility is paramount. Safety first. And whatever other aviation corporate jargon.
I get it’s a hassle and bureaucracy is rarely optimized, but that type of paperwork is how we ensure accountability, so that when 280 people die, some guy doesn’t get to shrug his shoulders and say “must not have been me who forgot to XYZ”. Ideally the paperwork trips him up in advance and he is fired years before he kills people. The number of plane crashes caused by the most boneheaded of maintainance lapses is just wild. I do a job with reams of paperwork, but I have seen the alternative and the reams of paperwork is way better.
I agree, homie.
I was on an off road race team that owned a helicopter. The pilot was talking about changing out a landing light and how expensive it was to get it replaced. I said why can’t you just get a really high quality racing light and use that. He said “Because the FAA doesn’t want people bolting just any old light to an aircraft that flies thousands of feet in the air.” That was my ah ha moment with regulations.
*Laughs in Boeing
They use a different approach. With Boeing, faking the documentation takes as long the actual job.
Careful buddy, you might get sick all of a sudden
Boeing has advanced technology that allows the piece to just fall off the plane once it stops working. Saves tons of time
We have a job that takes about 5 minutes to do physically. The paperwork/ desk work takes about 25 mins if you know what you're doing. If you don't, it can take 45+. And God forbid there's a problem with the serial numbers.
BMW owners were crying at how easy/fast this was...probably cheaper also.
When you design something to be serviceable, this is what you get. When you dont have a care in the world about maintenance, you get some modern cars.
I think if you didn't care, you'd still end up with a somewhat serviceable engine. What modern car manufacturers are doing is intentional, to make it difficult to do basic maintenance yourself. Yay capitalism.
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I hope someone comes along and offers me a low cost, easily serviceable way to shove the fucking headlight replacement up my ass rather than taking the whole car off the frame just to get to it
No, you've just witnessed capitalists out-capitalising other capitalists.
Capitalism is working as intended, improving the fitness of their products to the desires of the market. It just so happens the critical thinking capacity of the average consumer is about on par with a chihuahua.
I had a car once where instead of having to work your way into the head lamp in order to change a bulb, you could just take one long pin out and then slide that whole lamb assembly out. That was just one amazing solution to one of the most irritating things ever.
Not sure if that was just a random joke or not, but most BMW plugs are literally on top of the engine. Just changed 6 plugs and coil packs 2 months ago in about 30 minutes 😉. Go pick on Ford or Subaru lol
Yeah most people that shit talk bmw have never owned one nor have they ever worked on one.
Not sure why BMW has a bad reputation on this. They’re easy as fuck to work on especially for routine maintenance.
I was literally thinking wow I wish I had that much room and access when changing the spark plugs on my old wagoneer. Whoever thought putting some of them right up against the firewall with basically no clearance must have hated people or just been a madman.
Or my wife's 2017 Murano!
I saved $40 by learning how to change these myself. I then applied the savings towards the principal on my passenger jumbo jet loan.
Big airlines hate this one trick....
There's probably a VERY horrible reason somebody invented those little red blocking 'maintenance' tags
r/writteninblood And yeah, Lock Out Tag Out (the red tags) was invented off the back of some pretty gruesome deaths
As someone currently taking an industrial trade in college right now, seeing those lockout tags was so satisfying to watch
As someone with an interest in horror/thriller films I am waiting to see how long it is now until someone utilises this as part of a murder in a movie.
it's actually really, really easy to accidently kill someone by doing something that requires almost no effort, like removing a lockout tag. Which is why lockout safety and procedures are drilled into your head from the start of learning any trade.
That’s why I was surprised these were just little clip ons, I could see that getting snagged and falling off accidentally. Of course it’s a total fringe scenario and I assume they have other safeguards in place, but I’ve never seen a form of LOTO that didn’t require a physical key
Maybe it's not entirely a safety thing? Possibly moreso to prevent damage or something like that. At least I'd assume anything to do with worker safety would be more substantial.
lol for a second there I thought you were serious, good one
As someone who does industrial maintenance my lock is always with me in case I need it. That, leather man, Allen keys, flashlight and a knife.
I work on aircrafts and we can’t have our own personal tools with us on the flightline, it has to be controlled items from a central tool area that is signed out by name. Stops people from leaving their leatherman in an engine on accident.
I'm actually surprised they said just clips and not actually locks
Those do exist, especially when dealing with high-voltage equipment. I've seen padlocks put on main shutoff levers with a big red "GTFO" flag and only the shift supervisor has the key. A lot of people are still alive today thanks to those locks.
As someone who has picked up severed fingers off the production floor when lock out tag out was generally ignored, it was very relieving to see process followed correctly
The lock out tag outs at the place I worked could only be unlocked using a key that was in another box, which was locked and required a key being held by the supervising staff on site to open. Both the box and lock out tags had the faces of the workers you’d be killing by removing the tags early.
In a union workplace locks are NEVER cut off "early" until the owner is located, because they may have suffered a medical emergency and still be in harms way. The lock photos are so everybody involved in the search knows who they are looking for. If the owner is located but isn't on the premisses, they are typically given a set amount of time to return and remove their lock before management officially becomes involved and paperwork is created to document cutting the lock off, usually in the presence of a union rep. LOTOTO is deadly serious business.
CB clips aren't what you would consider "LOTO" but yes, pretty horrible things have happened from simple miscommunication
I go thru training for loto every few months, and I hear stories that happen to this day of gruesome deaths that could have been prevented by those tags, or by understanding what those tags mean.
Knew a guy who was an electrician in the Navy. He went to work on the bow sonar array of a surface ship, so he locked/tagged out the power supply and started heading down to it. He was about 10-15 feet behind it, about to go through the final bulkhead door, when it sent out a ping. At 235dB. Had he been any closer, he'd have likely died from internal hemorrhaging. After he was able to stand again, he went back to the control room to find a private contractor who also had to do some work on the sonar array. The contractor saw the lockout/tagout, decided that they couldn't wait to do their work, and proceeded to *disassemble the power supply and bypass the switch* to power it back up so they could run their tests. Eleven levels of hell descended on that person.
Yup. In the Navy, our Quality Assurance program was developed because of the Challenger explosion and our SubSafe program was due to the sinking of the USS Thresher, which is a pretty horrible way to go
LOTO (lock out tagout ) rules are written in blood. Interesting that they aren’t actual locks without name date work etc. probably someday
There’s a maintenance log book that has warnings, names, dates, reasons, and any other information you can think of for those cb clips. The first thing you do when you come to an aircraft is to ensure the area/aircraft is safe. The second thing you do is check the maintenance log book. If someone pulled those clips and activated that system via the control panel while that was being fixed they 100% were not supposed to be there. Also, it’s highly unlikely they could even activate the systems if they didn’t know to check the log book.
I bet that this is not required because only qualified workers should be in that area. The whole apron area is more or less locked and I bet the the engine spools up first before even trying to start the ignition.
Yeah you’d have to turn on the battery (or ground power) and the APU to start spooling the engine before ignition. There’s several steps required.
> should > more or less Wrongful death lawyers licking their lips
It’s still a bit scary that they don’t lock them off. In the industrial maintenance trade, you should lock out tag out. In this, someone can just take the tags off and start that bad boy up with your head inside of it…
Wait until you find out that commercial jets like that don't have ignition keys either. In theory "anyone" with access to it could start it up and fly. There are dozens of checks and steps with at least 4 eyes involved until someone turns the engine start lever from OFF to IDLE.
Some random person did just hop in a passenger plane and took off for a joy ride in Seattle a while back. Dude ended up doing a barrel roll in it before crashing into an island.
He was maintenance on those and pretty depressed from what I remember.
Fly high and at peace, Sky King.
All of which can be learned solo in a properly accurate flight sim.
yeah, or even like... just RTFM. The startup checklists are generally written specifically enough that someone who had never even been in an airplane before could get one running and moving. You'd crash into shit and/or die right away of course, but that wouldn't stop you from getting it running.
Taking off lockout tags casually without following procedure is almost certainly an instant termination and probably blackballed from ever working in the field again. Electrical and mechanical safety with machines like this is only treated lightly in the food processing industry. Everywhere else, you have people who have seen fuck-ups get sucked into a machine or die from an electrical short.
We do have LOTO with actual locks but those are typically only used when it will be in place for multiple shifts. Otherwise you trust your coworkers as it’s usually a small group working on a jet. And everyone knows you DO NOT FUCKING TOUCH SOMEONE ELSES LOTO or you will be fired immediately and possibly met in the parking lot by a few disgruntled former coworkers. What you don’t see is there’s a master list of LOTO in place on the aircraft in a binder or book and a designated employee who ensures it’s done properly.
That will be $15,000 sir.
Still cheaper than a Mercedes oil change.
I had a colleague that bought a used Mercedes at one time. Like, maybe a few years older model, but still fairly new at the time. Anyway, at one time during lunch, I recalled him *bragging* about a $400 oil change. Like, "This car is so nice, the oil change is $400." Mind you, this was like 10 years ago, too. Anyway, he got the business from the rest of the group about how paying $400 for an oil change isn't anything to brag about. He got married and had three kids, and now I'm pretty sure he drives an Altima and his wife drives a minivan.
My old boss collected royles Royce cars. He received a 10k oil change bill which included tire rotation, filters, and a 100 point inspection. They didn't do anything but change the oil and rotate tires and add filters. 9.5k... insane
~~royles~~ Rolls Royce
I know a friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend who owns a Mercedes S-class. She took it to the stealership for a spark plug replacement. You know what the labor costs are for a V8 Mercedes S-class spark plug replacement? $1500. For a 30 minute job that any high-schooler with a torque-wrench could do. And who's making the money? Not the mechanics. Straight to the car dealer ownership.
That's nuts! The transverse mounted v6 in my Toyota is a BITCH to service the rear 3 plugs on (they're crammed up under the lip of the wiper area and firewall), and that one cost me $50 in labor for a local shop to do the work. Some of the Subaru DOHC engines are also really hard to service the plugs on as well because they're right against the front wheel wells, but even they're like 1/10 that price to get done.
while the mechanic is getting paid $40/hr
My guess is they are actually an aviation mechanical engineer while specialized training and make about $125,000 a year.
so $60/hr
With a bunch of good benefits, and OT
Average is a little below that for maxed out 5-10+ year service mechanics in the US; I'm licensed and type certified (though on regional turboprops and a relatively small operation) in Canada and currently get about $26 USD/hr. Topped out type certified mechanics at one national airline up here get <$40/hr USD. Currently one union fighting the airline to get that bumped up.
The igniter is close to $3k, probably a little less considering the plane in the video is old with old engines. But yeah, any time the plane is not on the ground costs money so it's probably not too far off all things considered.
Wondering if everything requires wire ties. 🤔
Most things that are tightened or can vibrate loose. It's to stop it causing any damage or problems if it vibrates off. There is anti vibration measures but the wire is a fail safe. (afaik)
Crazy, thanks
It's a good question. Aerospace industry is full of stuff like this. Like the red tags fitted to the (I assume) circuit breaker. They will say "remove before flight" or something and are large and obvious. Thus not easily missed. Not impossible granted.
Those are definitely Lock-Out-Tag-Out clips designed to keep someone from starting the equipment while a technician is in a position to get injured or killed by the machinery. While they'd probably serve the purpose you described that's not the primary purpose of the tags.
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Not typically, no, those circuit breakers are your system deactivation. Typically can also placard warning tags on the aircraft's master power switches if you've turned the whole aircraft off to do the work, but typically it's just circuit breakers as there's other power-on work on the rest of the airplane that needs to be done.
Those appear to be LOTO clips and tags. Ignition wouldn't be possible without them removed
They are definitely lock out tag out clips.
We had Lockout/Tagout at my shitty factory that made labels for water bottles. It’s a workplace safety thing, instead of just an aerospace thing. Anytime powered equipment or machinery is being serviced then the power/controls are supposed to be locked and tagged out.
The safety wire is what holds it in place, its torqued and wired in a way that (when nut to nut) one tightens when the other loosens, or nut to structure) it doesn’t allow it to loosen.
Nut to nut, both have to be tightening. That’s the whole point.
Aviation wire: Nature's Flextape.
What keeps the wire from vibrating loose?
It’s twisted and tied, like a really strong bread wire. There’s rules on “must be done this way with this many twists per inch”
Another wire. It's wires all the way down.
Safety wire wire. Got it, but…
Very good info, I was wondering about this. Thanks!
For 90% of hardware on the aircraft yes. Safetying is a means to prevent hardware from loosening due to vibration during operation. What you see in this video is safety wire, but safety cables, castellated nuts with cotter keys, retainer washers, and self-locking nuts are all used as well. Areas where this practice isn't used are typically non critical for flight interior areas of the aircraft.
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This message approved by western Canadian farmers. They love their #9 wire
Pretty much, we call it safety wire and if it can vibrate loose it needs some sort of locking mechanism, so if not safety wire then probably a cotter pin.
Maybe Pratt&Whitney made me a snob, but I rewatched those last few seconds several times just to judge how good his safety wire was.
Haha same. Safety wire is a rite of passage in my unit.
That splinter guy was pretty on the money. I actually work with jet engines, so I'm really familiar with it. We call it safety wire. It's used in damn near every torque bolt and line. He's right about it being for vibration. The way you feed it is in a tightening position. So you'll either have it on 2 bolts that tighten opposite directions, or on an anchor point and a bolt. The idea for the 2+ bolts is that if vibration causes one to try and loosen, it'll cause the other to tighten. But since they're torqued to high and specific values, there isn't much tightening that can happen, so the other bolt won't loosen. Super handy and important, but a long learning process on proper technique. We got a sayin, "if ya ain't bleedin, ya ain't safety wiring." I hope this helped!
Starting to see why the air force doesn't want dumbasses.
I have bad news for you. As an air force jet engine mechanic I can confirm every one of my coworkers was a dumbass. Most of them were damn good mechanics, but dumbass was absolutely on their title.
Can confirm. All phenomenal mechs but all deplorable idiots. It’s a fun environment.
Can confirm, as an avionics tech, we considered crew chiefs, engines, and hydro homies to be the dumbasses, and we were the nerds
yeah nerd, go swap some boxes and beep some boops
Don’t ever walk into a hangar if you want to keep the illusion that airlines and the air force don’t hire dumbasses.
We have dumbasses but we have tech data and QA to keep them in check. I’m a ground equipment mechanic. Biggest “jet engine” I ever worked on is a $300k gas turbine engine for a generator no bigger than a cummins diesel. But I was trained to do KTL’s in my tenure as QA, which are mandatory inspections we had to do for certain maintenance tasks. Reading our workcards and tech orders, any body can figure it out. Backwards safety wire was what I would catch most on F-16 engines. Or FOD in the engine bay, like broken safety wire pigtails or washers. It’s actually a pretty solid system. You have the journeyman do the big jobs, craftsman “red x” qualified sign the job off after they verify it’s good, then QA comes and inspects it, stamps the forms and signs the job off.
jet engines have ignitors, not spark plugs.
What's the difference?
different voltages, different design for spark containment, spark plugs run while the engine is running, ignitors are only for starting the engine.
Think of it as the striker used to ignite a blow torch (or even the flint in a lighter). It just has to get it burning, and then the flame stays lit without it during normal operation. Reciprocating engines don't have a continual flame in them, so they need to be reignited with each power stroke. Gasoline engines use a spark plug for each power stroke while diesels use the heat from compression along with the existing heat in the engine to achieve ignition (and can use a glow plug to get enough initial heat when starting). So there's similarities, but also some key differences that make for difference in design.
Spark plug is continuously working, while an ignition plug (glow plug) is only used during ignition
Glow plugs are completely different.
Just think of a spark plug equivalent to a butt plug. Always sparking as the piston create pressure while the car is running to light the gas to push the pistons back. An igniter is more like a vibrator once you’re done using it you turn it off. Hope this helps.
Thank you, that was bugging me
what was the goopy stuff put on the threads? and what was the point of that little wire that got twisted up?
C5, anti-seize lubricant, and safety wired the connector tight.
That wasn't C5. C5 is copper based and has a different colour. This is some nickel paste since it is black/grey.
I’d like to thank some American t-6 mechanic for getting that goop removed from igniter installation. You da real MVP
Not sure of what he put on the ignitor, but the wire is a safety feature. It holds the nut tight, and keeps it from coming loose due to vibrations while flying.
Anti-sieze. Also the wire would prevent the plug from backing out due to vibrations.
There is so much vibration in an airplane that connectors of all sorts can easily work loose and eventually come apart. The wire prevents the fastener from turning even a little bit.
1) likely anti-seize to prevent the ignitor from getting stuck in there. You do the same with car spark plugs. 2) the wire helps keep the bolt from rotating itself out due to vibration.
Boeing manager here. None of this needed to be done. Trust me, I'm a complete fucking idiot, I know what I'm talking about.
I see what you did there....
Boeing executive here. My manager is doing a great job. Our charts continue to go up and to the right. I’ll take that bonus now.
I’m a whis.. aggh my neck, I’ve been stabbed
Reporter here. Nothing to report on, look at this other stuff over here
Boeing CEO here...yea we fucking did it. Try us.
Dead whistleblower here, I’m out on a wing and prayer, but hoping for a resurrection. You all are doing an amazing job.
Boeing here, we have dispatched our soul assassins.
Boeing passenger here, someone left the door open and now there’s water entering the cabin.
I think you misspelled McDonnell Douglas.
Sounds about right
You’re not paying these techs well, right? The shareholders and c-suites need more money.
Igniter... changing an igniter in a turbine engine... fixed it
Love seeing lock-out tag-out safety precautions being shown here.
I was enjoying this video and then I saw the safety wire and the flashbacks began. :(
If the fuses are pulled and locked out, why were the turbines turning?
The wind blowing them
That's windmilling, the engine basically is like a small wind turbine and the wind blowing in is turning it.
They're so (relatively) light, have such low resistance bearings, and foremost, are so well balanced. A small gust of wind is enough to make them spin.
Did anyone else expect some Lord of the Rings ramblings?
I just watched a toilet seal installation video to make sure I don't fuck it up and this was the next video. Kinda feel a little dumb right now lol
AutoZone: "Is it 2 wheel drive or 4 wheel drive?"
Mechanics are fucking awesome. As an engineer, I'm so glad we have top tier mechanics working with us.
Mechanics curse engineers every second of every day….
Boeing Mechanics- "fuck it"
The grease monkeys do good work in general, but you can only cover so much as a single person or a team. The problem is more systemic and its kept as such for profit. Less checks are scheduled, faults from manufacturing are kept hidden from the maintainance end, less mechanics overall are hired to cover shifts, faults that are flagged get buried and corners are cut by higher ups to maintain tight schedules and meet tight budgets. Thing is that the suits are made aware of various problems but they don't give a fuck as long as profits go up. Air travel has had a stellar record for decades now but all of a sudden the fuckwits in boardrooms have become completely detached from the groundwork and have been rolling profits into stock buybacks instead of maintainance and engineering. And also since boeing itself is a massive military contractor it is kept afloat with huge amonts of public money so they dont have to worry about going under any time soon. Its basically a state funded company with private owners so they can't lose no matter what they do.
Not that it matters to anyone cuz of the meme, but airlines are responsible for maintenance once they purchase the jets. Any of the random maintenance issues that pop up all the time on social media are typically the responsibility of the airline and not the manufacturer.
As long as the shareholders are happy nothing else matters.
How many years of mechanical knowledge/study you need before playing with those machines?
2 months of tech school in the Airforce
So for the American side, you need an FAA A&P for starters. Thats between 32 months and 18 months depending on how you get the license. For that specific task, because the plane goes over water you need the General familiarization course (genfam) for that airframe, and the ETOPS training. After that you need something called the “airworthiness release sign off” to be able to release the plane for flight. Some stuff might require an inspector which is even more training on top of 5 years minimum experience. Or avionics quals to run tests. It gets complicated.. Europe is different.
I run programs to train AMEs. Two yr program plus two more years apprenticeship. Crazy demand, 6fig salary, great benefits. PM if you want to learn more.
I live in Brazil brother, I don't think your courses apply here 😅 But thanks, I appreciate it!
Airlines conduct loads of maintenance in Brazil (and Latin America in general) as because of scheduling the aircraft are parked on the ground anyway. So might still be something to look into if you're the least bit interested
It’s absolutely incredible how all of this is safer than a car.
Well it’s safer due to never ending redundant systems and restrictions.
Partly. Another reason is that only well trained people are allowed to fly these things and it is a lot harder to collide with something up int he air than it is to hit a tree down here on the ground. Yes lack of maintenance and resulting accidents do happen with cars and a lot but the vast majority of car accidents happen because people are shitty drivers.
Praise the Machine Spirit. Praise the Motive Force. Praise the Omnissiah.
It's just not the same without the Lord of the Rings lore.
Changed several ignitors, on a few tfe731’s a while back…..
Is the twisted wire to help hold in the nut?
And I thought subarus were bad
The fact that they used a regular wrench to attach the cable after using a torque wrench on the igniter makes me think that they aren’t as concerned about over torquing the igniter as much as under torquing it. I couldn’t tell whether the safety wire went through the igniter itself, or just through the fitting.
The igniter lead cap torque is hand tight and one flat with the wrench. The cap can easily be over-torqued and damaged. Once the safety wire is in place it isn't going anywhere.
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I absolutely loved safety wire applications because it meant I got to use the Safety Wire Pliers It's the little things
They'd make a fortune if they added the "Dad Pass" to watch this happen while they wait for a flight. I can already see mine there, hands on hips, smiling approvingly.
If it's a Boeing jet they likely recommend taking out the old one and then putting it right back in.
I LOVE that they included the Lock-Out-Tag-Out procedure at the beginning and end. Though, I would have liked to have seen actual locks, instead of just clips.
Not a spark plug ....Igniter