Depends on the hobby. But unlike other countries, people often join these hobbies because they want to do that specific activity not to socialize. Most of the time (in the adults case) they don't have time or interest in making new friends outside of it because they already have a friend circle for those other activities you mention.
Additionally for many, especially women, giving personal contact to strangers is a big step even for club members.
Japanese people are sort weirdly super busy as well so its like this is that time for that only. I also find must Japanese people are friends with people that they went to middle school or high school.
I mean the gorogoro at home thing is also just from being wiped out from work and not wanting to meet anyone. It shouldn’t be taken personally.
I’m a pretty introverted person. I do like seeing friends from time to time. But I definitely need a couple of days a week of just gorogoroing and that’s not reflective of any problem with my friends.
I think many people are like that. But in English we wouldn't describe that as "I'm busy", because it's almost literally the opposite of having something you need to do. It seems in Japanese 忙しい covers this though, at least when you're turning someone down!
Or they already have a family - which may also come with an extended family, i.e. in-laws, cousins, etc. - and spend the rest of their free time with them?
It's the Tokyo transplants thing. Village culture people pretty much all know each other but there are still hard cliques and gossip and stuff.
While Japanese people are polite to satisfy social conventions, forming hard lines around cliques is satisfying social conventions, so I've seen people create completely immature unnecessary feuds with in-laws but favor other in-laws and lines are drawn, waruguchi ensues, everyone makes sure to let everyone know exactly what they think about what kinds of people everyone is and voila you have a solid uchi soto.
Surburban life is more varied. People with kids tend to build small networks of friends over time that they keep up with when people get transferred all that. It's the Tokyo culture and the paranoia leftover when everyone came from inaka and no one knew each other or what the hell to do socially, plus shitty edokko culture. That's where this bizarre hyper alienation from society is peak, like urban loneliness.
Damn that all these people are so busy and working too many long hours and telling other people they are busy within ear shoot of men on the tiny 0,001% that I would ask them to hang out is wild, but makes me feel very special, especially knowing there that so-called overtime is just for my benefit.
The fact is the types of Japanese who have time to spend with you are not spending tons of time with the typical or majority Japanese shakaiin. Good for you I guess, but you didn't address the topic just took a dunk on a rando.
This is true. All of my wife’s close friends, her *real* friends, are people she went to elementary or junior high school with, although she has some acquaintances that are moms of our son’s friends or PTA moms. So those are the two main avenues it seems. Go to primary school in Japan, or have a child.
And the “weirdly super busy” increases dramatically when you get in your 30s, 40s, 50s. I imagine that drops off in your 60s but I’m not there yet.
By busy Japanese people seem to structure activities and meetups in advance, I have never done activiety without a week notice with Japanese people, not counting drinking and eating with random people in izakayas.
I’m an amateur jazz musician, and I invite a few friends to come jam at my house occasionally. Always one in one so no major coordination is necessary, but it always requires a month or two in advance notice, and then it’s subject to last minute cancellation needing another month or two advance rescheduling.
This is true. Casual social events are booked way in advance. I once thought I was being excluded from tons of stuff but then one day was asked to go to something and it was weeks away and I thought it still meant I was in the dog house but actually it meant I was starting to be accepted.
It’s not that they’re just crazy busy it’s that their society teaches them that socializing and being friendly is weird. Anyone who does seem friendly is looked at as weird or having an ulterior motive. That’s the real reason.
No this is actually true. A LOT of people spend most of their time not just in work, but in company related social obligations. They have early hours and long commutes.
Some Japanese people still have the 1 day off a month thing going on.
While you do see people out and about in Tokyo, the point is that's just the surface. There are more people not out and about than are.
And there are strong obligations to core groups and a little bit of hierarchies and so they can't really go far and wide.
I know, my gf is Japanese and we live over an hour away from each other, for a long time I was worried as we were not going on dates as much as people do in the west she didn't like me and was just going out with me as she was too polite. Since it's been 8 months it is just her job, she has a side job of teaching yoga, and other having to things, it is just different here.
I know, my gf is Japanese and we live over an hour away from each other, for a long time I was worried as we were not going on dates as much as people do in the west she didn't like me and was just going out with me as she was too polite. Since it's been 8 months it is just her job, she has a side job of teaching yoga, and other having to things, it is just different here.
Nah, I am the same, my closest friends are from school and I legit slowly stopped being friends with my university friends and still super close with my school friends. I feel like handling like more then 6 close friends is enough.
Yeah that's true for almost all humans, but Japanese have such well defined and enforced clique lines that it's extra hard to expand past what you have.
Within the interest group, it’s “you and I like a similar thing”
Going outside the interest group, it’s “you and I are friends.”
That’s a big leap, and takes a significant amount of time or some real interpersonal connection. Unless you happen upon a secondary interest that you and they share, don’t expect much beyond maybe “have a beer together”.
This is it.
Become genuine friends within the hobby group, then you become friends outside it.
It's the same with work, build up a good friendship at work and it can translate outside.
You can't force people to be your friends.
I have several friends resulting from both groups.
And sometimes through incidental chatter you discover other interests that you can get folded into. A guy in my kendo dojo found out I played guitar, so he invited me out to jam sessions with his other friends. When he saw I had some cool thrifted clothes, he took me and his son out to a flea market and we just tried stuff on and shot the shit. But I've never gotten invited to just dinner/drinks here, outside of a date or a structured event within one of the hobby groups.
>Do Japanese tend to not socialize in their hobby groups for purposes other than the hobby?
Yeah, sums it up. Even my cliques from high school days that I occasionally hang with don't really open up to anything outside of the hobby. So no intimate communication, its just people vibing under a lot of common hobbies and videogames.
Not saying its a representation of 100% of Japanese people but typically people don't share intimate details about family or lifestyle in the way Westerners might as friend. So sometimes I feel like my old time friends are more like good acquaintances than friends.
That's not to say its a bad thing, though. Sometimes we just don't like having personal insecurities called out or explored into by others, so its nice that any Japanese space (not just hobbies) know how to keep to themselves rather than being in-your-face with everything.
The dynamics are just... different.
But take it with a grain of salt though because I'm a Japanese guy with Japan fatigue.
What's it like having Japan fatigue as a Japanese?
Edit: lovin the jokes below, but if the commenter comes back, I was seriously asking what it's like having Japan fatigue as a Japanese person. I've heard my spouse express similar things, and I was just curious how another person might describe it. No need to reply if you don't feel like it, obvs. Thanks for sharing above.
As far as friends from different stages and even activities in life, I have that too as an American. Seems a natural thing when people aren't tied to one small community indefinitely.
I feel like Kojima really understood my struggle as a French person. Once you go abread, you'll always feel that phantom pain, the bakeries you've lost.
There are sometimes personal interest stories about Japanese researchers who know nothing about the outside world but are thrust into a foreign grad school and then they report that some basic modes of social interaction completely common in the world are things they never even imagined human beings did, because nothing like that happened in Japan.
My high school friends are friends.
The friends I made in my international uni days are friends. A lot of them are American.
People I've bonded with at work are friends. They come from all over the world.
People I meet in online games are friends.
Dynamics for each are different. But friends nonetheless.
But there is a level right? You wouldn’t deem those people you’ve bonded at work to be at the same level as someone you grew up together with being close, would you?
Yes of course, but
I think my outlook on friendship might be a little different from some people because I moved places a lot as a kid and learned to just get along with whoever is in my space at the time. I'm never exclusive to a singular group.
Ahh I see. Getting along with people is good and great. Personally, I don’t use the word “friend” lightly to any people I get along with or just happened to be with and have good enough not deep relations but I get the gist of what you’re saying.
Yea, definitely noticed this here as well, even amongst Japanese. I think it’s because you’re expected to go all in with any activity here, including drinking.
There is no casual pint at the bar here. You’re either all in or you should see yourself out.
Is it specific to Japan though ? You can't be friends with anyone. It is not because you do activities with someone that you are friends. And in my opinion it also good that way, less stressfull, you just fit in by doing the activity no time lost on social interactions.
Where are you from?
It's pretty specific to Japan based on my experience. I lived in several countries in my life and had no problem doing exactly this with my hobby group members.
It is a thing in the Netherlands too, famously, but globally it’s not common. When I lived in NL everybody complained about it. Very similar mentality on friendships between the Netherlands and Japan strangely.
I've found that many Japanese people love going out to drink. It may not be "friends" but going out to drink after an event has been pretty common for me. That's pretty much how I met my ex and a friend that left for NA.
I mean are these people your friends to where they would want to go to the movies with you etc?
I mean I'm in a few crafting hobby groups and we do go to workshops together but we as a hobby group don't go out and do other non-hobby things together. The point of the group is to partake in the hobby, not go watch a movie.
Granted I swap ideas and supply finds with a girl I'm much closer with and we meet up outside of the hobby group but that's because we have an established friendship but no one is out there trying to get the whole group to do an unrelated activity unless it's like a once a year group bbq or something.
Hobbies are a great way to meet people and make friends. But being in a hobby group doesn't automatically make everyone your friend. Does that make sense?
I'd say it really just depends.
When I go to something, I go for the activity, not to make friends. That doesn't mean I'm standing glaring at people, but if I'm going to yoga, I want to concentrate on that.
I've been invited out by people who were in the same exercise group as me and the invites ended up being requests for English lessons. No, thanks!
But now that I think about it, the group things I've done tended to have people who were interested in meeting up after and having drinks or dinner. But....I also think there's a split between "older" people who want to do that and people in their 20s who'd rather head straight home.
My friend told me it’s common to go to neighborhood izakaya here and have drinking friends for years and have it just be that. They don’t even know what the other person does for work.
I've noticed that millennial Americans have picked up some social habits from East Asia and I'm only saying that because I noticed it more on the West Coast than the East. Things like ending a relationships just by ghosting. Or like giving your phone number to anyone who asks with no intention of ever talking to them. That didn't fly on the East Coast.
I always find it funny how none of my wife's friends have ever met each other.
With the exception of.... the (Japanese) friends she made while living in Europe who now live in Japan.
It’s funny how people here often suggest to go to these hobby groups to find friends yet here everyone is like yeah duh, people are just there to spend time for their hobby. This is the peak japanlife moment for me…
With Japanese people you have to make the first move. That’s pretty much it. Approach the people you want to be friends with. Start a small talk about their clothes or something and ask if they have insta. I feel it’s easier to let them stalk you online and be semi online friends first instead of opening up at first.
Idk if you’re a woman though. But it seems harder for them. My partner is Japanese and she also struggles to find meaningful friendship with girls because she didn’t grow up there. Her friends seem a bit envious of her
To be honest, that will make it harder. I will happily share my social media accounts with people I’ve met once and enjoyed chatting with, but there’s no way I’d share my Line or phone number. Even if you don’t post much, having an insta or twitter will make it easier to make connections.
As a probably older person that is wild to me. I'm fine giving out line / phone no. because I can always just ignore that person's messages and calls if I want.
Social media however shows where I've been, where I hang out often, who I know, what I do, if I'm out drinking on a work night, etc. There is so. much. more. info. on there for stalkers.
I keep that shit locked down and only add close friends and family now.
I'm the same. My instagram is private and I have very few "friends" by most accounts, but I also post personal stuff about my life.
I have another public account that I don't try to promote.
I'm not a fan of connecting with people through Instagram or Facebook and using their number of "friends" as some kind of measuring stick. LINE is an option, but I'd almost rather just give them my email address and meet a few times before deciding whether to add them to a social network...but I guess that makes me strange nowadays.
If you always keep your personal life to yourself how can you expect to make friends? The whole point of making friends is sharing your personal life.
I’m not saying you need to be an influencer or have a public profile. It’s no different really than when you used to write your phone number on a napkin.
I think that "sharing your personal life" means different things to different people. Some people use Instagram the way Facebook used to be used. As like a "catch all" for anyone and everyone they meet. Their photos are flowers or like an interesting cloud, and they don't even have that many photos overall.
I like sharing weird vids or comics I've found. Or raunchy jokes. Or thoughts on politics. Stuff that might be fine with a smaller group that I've known for some time, but wouldn't go over well with someone I just met who doesn't get dark humor.
Besides, when people wrote phone numbers on napkins, it was to a landline and there was no way to immediately tell if the number was fake or not.
Fair enough. But if you want to make friends you have to put yourself out there somehow. If you’re not the most charismatic person it will be difficult without social media, or mutual friends who can introduce you.
Sometimes it’s easier to give up and say “it’s impossible to make friends” but these people typically don’t put themselves in a vulnerable position that invites new relationships. This is why people go to bars. Alcohol can be a gateway to friendships because it opens you up. But of course it’s not healthy. You have to find other ways.
Yeah, I think it's a process and it's hard to know for foreigners in Japan how much is personality, environment, or anything else.
I do think that people should think about what kind of friendships they want because that seems to be an ever bigger global issue. People seem to want close connections and as want to be unburdened by close connections.
I've kind of met my friendship capacity, and I'm being more selective in how I go about new friendships.
I have group chats or single DMs with my friends. We like to talk about what happened during my the workday or upcoming plans or causes of life stress. Messenger or LINE is good for that.
I never got on board with posting pictures of my vacation or the food I'm eating. Getting いいね on pictures from strangers feels weird to me. When I share a picture with my friends, it's because I want a conversation. I'm not throwing content on the internet for reactions. At least not when my identity is involved.
I don't have much of a public profile for people to stalk. I think I'm too young to experience writing phone numbers on napkins. Facebook was already established by the time I was on the internet. I still use Facebook Messenger daily. But my latest FB update is from 2017. It's all DMs.
My profile is private. But if I meet someone I want to be friends with I let them follow me. I post my projects and vacations but I don’t post random selfies or something like this for no reason. It’s not that deep to where people would know all my personal data, but they can learn things about me outside of just the place I met them and it makes a basis for conversation.
I played golf with the same group for 12 years every weekend, other than the Saturday / Sunday morning meet up and play, we never did anything socially, haha!
An excellent and true observation, the source of which goes beyond what people said about Japanese people being busy. They are quite busy, but most importantly they are "busy".
Recently someone posted an excellent explanation of how friendships in Japan are very different from what we're used to in the west. In that friendship ends the moment the hierarchical social context for the friendship ends.
Say, if you're classmates, or coworkers, even if you're close friends, you'll be ghosted the moment the roles that bound you together are severed (say, you're no longer coworkers because one of you quit or was fired).
An exception for some reason would be related to friendships from the adolescent years ("childhood friend" being a weak but valid social context).
At some point in life, shields go up, and people stop letting new people in on a personal level, where shared experiences or memories you could be making with a newly met person just for their own sake no longer hold much value. So if there is no defined purpose to the relationship, there would be no effort made to pursue it.
You're in Japan. Pay attention to 建前 Tatemae to deduce the 本音 Honne.
Saying they are busy is the easy way to avoid "offending you" with an outright "not interested".
My best friends in Japan I’ve met through hobbies. Just finished drinking with them tonight.
There are some people in the hobby scene who I wouldn’t hang out with outside of (where we do said hobby) but there are many who I hang out with privately and have gone on vacation with, have met their family etc.
My Japanese friends are either family friends through my wife or those who have spent significant time overseas. Otherwise, my closest friend circle is largely foreigners. That said, if you have hobby groups that are reflective of lifestyle like surfing, hiking, biking, motorcycle, the arts especially, they seem pretty social. The hobbies focused on getting away from the daily grind, not so much.
Some hobbies are structured a lot like work. You sort of have to dress a certain way, figure out the social structure, keep to your obligations. Maybe less alienation and stress than work.
I'm sure it depends on the hobby, the group of people and your personality. I did not find this to be the case with me. The first time I went to a meet up for my hobby, half the group wanted to friend me on Facebook, and several invited me to other (hard to get ticketed) events that they know I'd never be able to get into. I think it was because I was a foreigner and the fandom was a "foreigner" thing, though. (That is, I'm not into anime, so it wasn't an anime meet up. Imagine, idk, going to a Star Wars meet up or something.) Anyway, they were all super super nice. Like, I had the opposite problem of not wanting to add/hang out with some of them haahahaha
Japanese people, you might say, tend not to socialize - period - for purposes other than the hobby.
Japanese are very socially tentative, have maybe a long standing tight knit group, many tend to bounce from friend to friend and back again. The idea is they never really like getting "acquainted" too well with anyone new and try to avoid it for the obligations it can bring to both people. Most of the time, you will meet a new Japanese friend once, and then a few months later again, and then a few months later. It takes a long time to become a regular.
Not saying it always works that way, but like my point is "it's not you" it IS that bad for a lot of Japanese people.
I was joking in a comment below but there is a legitimate solution for you. Just join a lot more clubs and stay "booked" how Japanese people are often booked. This will keep you from feeling too lonely, and make it bother you less if one particular group rejects you. Plus, you can do a lot of varied activities not having to do them alone.
I think actually this is what many Japanese people do. I think this is what you have to do until something clicks.
And it's why people incapable of that level of socialization and constant interaction just end up as hermits since there's no middle ground.
I don't know, this is starting to make sense to me. Japanese people are mostly private so you have to kind of guess and infer over time how different people you know spend their time.
Basically what all the others have mentioned. Other than the hobby group you'll have the end of the and the start of the year parties and that's it. Japanese people don't really get personal with people unless they've known them a long time.
This isn't to say all hope is less. Just getting folks to do something outside of the thing you do with them is like a very complicated dance.
You just gotta spend longer time with them, and ease in.
You know genuinely be interested but not nosy, maybe ask how work was etc.
They're human after all it just they are fucking busy or unwilling.
OK i'm a few shots in and will add.
I get if they just want to do the activity but
If you nobody socializes what's the point.
Some people just want to enjoy the activity i get it, i can respect that.
But damn does it feel difficult making friends. Maybe its Tokyo? Back in Kanagawa it wasn't this cold.
Yeah it is Tokyo in some respects. Japanese people (not from Tokyo) joke about it too.
Also, "Wait, if no one actually wants to socialize, why are we pretending to do it?" Is something I ended up asking, or something like that, tons of times. I was hurt from being treated a certain way and I got out of that once I realized that perfectly Japanese people were also being treated that way. But, you know, in Japan you just don't ask, "Why are we doing it this way?"
And, I don't want to get negative, but people say stuff like Japan is all about "cooperation and harmony" and of course being negative about Japan is a big fat no no, or being negative or observant in general. But, you know, you can also just call what Japan is kind of like, "catty, lazy, cliquishness". Like, there's no reason why a society mustn't be organized that way. I don't mean it so negatively. Just, Japan is a touchy exploitative of the socially low in a way and this "everything is fine, nothing is wrong right now, it's all amazing" line is part of that. So, I think it's okay to admit that social life in Japan can be a bit wonky sometimes it is what it is, don't beat yourself up over it. In fact, a lot of people have to break out of the Japan loop and ask if they really want to live like that for the rest of their life.
You can get stuck. Again, this is because the culture is, work harder if you feel you don't fit in. So, you get stuck trying to earn something that might not be there. Still, plenty of people are staying in Japan long term. I would say it does work better for introverts usually. There's kind of an inner tranquility and embrace of aloneness required to thrive there long term.
My experiences reflect the opposite of yours, OP. The 3 times I've been to Japan, I would frequent mahjong parlors, and while there are definitely people who keep to themselves and don't socialize, I've made many friends there. It's not uncommon that we'd
go for dinner after a few games and talk strategy and socialize about life or whatever.
It may depends on the hobby, but I can only speak for my own experiences.
I don't know if it's specifically Japan*ese*, but it's something in the areas of Tokyo I have experience with. From hobby/pastime/volunteer/work circles, I might make a new friend of perhaps 1 in 200 people. It's the same with my spouse.
As u/a0me notes, family ties tend to be strong in many cases.
The socialization can be part of it, but it depends on the hobby. However I think they usually like the constant people being there for that particular hobby rather than have any desire to make friendships outside of that time slot (Japanes people also have very little free time...).
This hasn't been my experience at all. If we want to, we go out drinking and maybe even some outside events together. It could be that my hobby (karate) does foster that brother/comrade relationship way more than something like gunpla or online gaming. But even so, when I was part of a gaming group here, when we had time, we'd go out drinking too.
I'm friends with people in my hiking group outside of just our hikes
We're busy adults, though, and have other family and friends as well as each other
I think part of it is Japan’s fear (phobia?) of any awkwardness. When you meet someone in the context of a group there’s well defined rules about what to do, how to do it, etc. The purpose is clear.
If you meet the same person outside that context, then this all goes out the window and you both have to improvise a whole new social interaction, with potentially disastrous consequences (what if things go wrong???).
Maybe what could help is inviting these people to take part in another activity that *also* has very well defined rules, like another related hobby?
Every social group will be different, but in my experience, the Japanese did meet up for other stuff, but didn't invite the foreigners or tell them about it.
Lol, I'm laughing not because them doing this is super bad or anything, but like some people do this so much they forget that it's incredibly rude and do it at times when it's not necessary or appropriate. Like, a context that's totally different and they forget the context has switched because too many of their other clique overlaps and so they end up excluding a huge portion in the new context.
By the way, I've seen organizations fail because of this stuff, and surprise people when it happens.
My former Japanese coworker was in a running club, and once he told me exactly the same thing that the members in the club were reluctant to do any other activities other than running. So I believe if you wanna go watch a movie, you need to join a movie club.
This is just my experience but there's sometimes the feeling that meeting up outside of the hobby with just one or two people is kind of cutting the other members of the group out and might make others feel left out. So I think some hobby groups try to organize group social events like enkais so that all or most members can join together. So either you've picked hobbies where people are just not interested in socializing, which can also happen, or that they're reluctant to meet up without all or most of the group being able to go.
I think you answered your own question. If the reason a group of people meet is to do a certain activity, it seems obvious that this is what they want to do, not socialize, and I’d say this is not exclusively a japan thing.
I think a lot of this is overblown saying it's a "Japanese people thing". A lot of it is simply the issue of getting older and not having long maintained connections to meet friends of friends. Now that I think about it all of my "new"friends back home were people I met through friends from college. Making new friends as an adult is just hard anywhere
After a couple of years I have found that the only people I can be 'normal' friends with seem to be either Japanese people who have lived abroad, or other foreigners.
My favorite thing about Japan is that people leave you alone. The autistic focus on a single purpose is much more enjoyable imo than being forced to spend time with people you dont care about very much or wiggling around private meetups.
„Oh yeah let‘s get coffee some day“ is just so dishonest
Depends. A lot of groups specifically don't include anyone in anything else going on in their lives.
Second, there are situations where what you said is true, but the way you put it makes it sound like the person is "disliked" when instead it's more that they don't have enough rapport for any reasonable Japanese to ever consider including them at that level yet.
But, yeah, sometimes they just don't want to hang out with some people.
If the Japanese really have feelings for him, they will get together and enjoy themselves even on holidays. In other words, they are not interested in the other person.
That doesn't make me wonder; I wonder if he doesn't have the ability to read the air.
That's not true. The vast majority of humans, including Japanese, are indifferent to the vast majority of people they meet.
Being unimportant to people doesn't mean you are a bad person. You're simply doing the Japanese thing of reacting to him complaining. I admit, complaining is rude if you can't accept your circumstances. But he has not done anything bad, you are trying to punish him for standing out. Of course, you know in an English speaking forum, this will make no sense so you have to invent a fake sense of him being bad in some other way.
This punishment culture in japan never made sense to me. Just tell him his complaints are a bit inconsiderate and everyone has to deal with this kind of situation. Instead you feel the need to become the hammer that must hit the nail that stands out. Your hammer is bigger than the nail, anyone can see it.
It is your fault that you could not live well in Japan. You have a problem with your character.
What is the difference between you and the foreigners here who also get along with Japanese people? You should think about it.
The problem is that you think that the Japanese are to blame for everything.
You just don't understand it. Are you living abroad now? Your character is not suited for Japan.
I wasn't talking about myself. The fact you made it about me proves you are a bully.
Now you say I claim the "Japanese are to blame for everything"? That's such an extreme statement and so far beyond anything I said.
Frankly, you argue like the most mentally unstable woman, and the most immature child.
Depends on the hobby. But unlike other countries, people often join these hobbies because they want to do that specific activity not to socialize. Most of the time (in the adults case) they don't have time or interest in making new friends outside of it because they already have a friend circle for those other activities you mention. Additionally for many, especially women, giving personal contact to strangers is a big step even for club members.
Japanese people are sort weirdly super busy as well so its like this is that time for that only. I also find must Japanese people are friends with people that they went to middle school or high school.
They are usually busy because they don’t want to hang out with you.
Yeah, "I'm busy" = I'd rather ゴロゴロ at home than spend time with you (but indirectly/politely)
Yup. And tbh that’s what I would say as well. Does that mean I can apply for citizenship?
I mean the gorogoro at home thing is also just from being wiped out from work and not wanting to meet anyone. It shouldn’t be taken personally. I’m a pretty introverted person. I do like seeing friends from time to time. But I definitely need a couple of days a week of just gorogoroing and that’s not reflective of any problem with my friends.
I think many people are like that. But in English we wouldn't describe that as "I'm busy", because it's almost literally the opposite of having something you need to do. It seems in Japanese 忙しい covers this though, at least when you're turning someone down!
Sure we would. It’s a polite way to say you’re not interested in hanging out with someone.
Or they already have a family - which may also come with an extended family, i.e. in-laws, cousins, etc. - and spend the rest of their free time with them?
I don't think I've ever met Japanese people interested in their extended family or even aware of them beyond meeting them at marriage or funerals.
It's the Tokyo transplants thing. Village culture people pretty much all know each other but there are still hard cliques and gossip and stuff. While Japanese people are polite to satisfy social conventions, forming hard lines around cliques is satisfying social conventions, so I've seen people create completely immature unnecessary feuds with in-laws but favor other in-laws and lines are drawn, waruguchi ensues, everyone makes sure to let everyone know exactly what they think about what kinds of people everyone is and voila you have a solid uchi soto. Surburban life is more varied. People with kids tend to build small networks of friends over time that they keep up with when people get transferred all that. It's the Tokyo culture and the paranoia leftover when everyone came from inaka and no one knew each other or what the hell to do socially, plus shitty edokko culture. That's where this bizarre hyper alienation from society is peak, like urban loneliness.
Good family relationships do exist
Damn that all these people are so busy and working too many long hours and telling other people they are busy within ear shoot of men on the tiny 0,001% that I would ask them to hang out is wild, but makes me feel very special, especially knowing there that so-called overtime is just for my benefit.
Sure but also japanese life IS really busy
The fact is the types of Japanese who have time to spend with you are not spending tons of time with the typical or majority Japanese shakaiin. Good for you I guess, but you didn't address the topic just took a dunk on a rando.
This is true. All of my wife’s close friends, her *real* friends, are people she went to elementary or junior high school with, although she has some acquaintances that are moms of our son’s friends or PTA moms. So those are the two main avenues it seems. Go to primary school in Japan, or have a child. And the “weirdly super busy” increases dramatically when you get in your 30s, 40s, 50s. I imagine that drops off in your 60s but I’m not there yet.
By busy Japanese people seem to structure activities and meetups in advance, I have never done activiety without a week notice with Japanese people, not counting drinking and eating with random people in izakayas.
I’m an amateur jazz musician, and I invite a few friends to come jam at my house occasionally. Always one in one so no major coordination is necessary, but it always requires a month or two in advance notice, and then it’s subject to last minute cancellation needing another month or two advance rescheduling.
This is true. Casual social events are booked way in advance. I once thought I was being excluded from tons of stuff but then one day was asked to go to something and it was weeks away and I thought it still meant I was in the dog house but actually it meant I was starting to be accepted.
It’s not that they’re just crazy busy it’s that their society teaches them that socializing and being friendly is weird. Anyone who does seem friendly is looked at as weird or having an ulterior motive. That’s the real reason.
No this is actually true. A LOT of people spend most of their time not just in work, but in company related social obligations. They have early hours and long commutes. Some Japanese people still have the 1 day off a month thing going on. While you do see people out and about in Tokyo, the point is that's just the surface. There are more people not out and about than are. And there are strong obligations to core groups and a little bit of hierarchies and so they can't really go far and wide.
I know, my gf is Japanese and we live over an hour away from each other, for a long time I was worried as we were not going on dates as much as people do in the west she didn't like me and was just going out with me as she was too polite. Since it's been 8 months it is just her job, she has a side job of teaching yoga, and other having to things, it is just different here.
I still find it crazy that school was once 6 days a week.
I know, my gf is Japanese and we live over an hour away from each other, for a long time I was worried as we were not going on dates as much as people do in the west she didn't like me and was just going out with me as she was too polite. Since it's been 8 months it is just her job, she has a side job of teaching yoga, and other having to things, it is just different here.
People who barely know each other will get married, if you count total hours spent together.
Is it unusual to be friends with people you went to school with?
Nah, I am the same, my closest friends are from school and I legit slowly stopped being friends with my university friends and still super close with my school friends. I feel like handling like more then 6 close friends is enough.
Yeah that's true for almost all humans, but Japanese have such well defined and enforced clique lines that it's extra hard to expand past what you have.
Also, they won't break down that barrier if they have no interest you specifically.
It takes a year at least before that even becomes an option
Within the interest group, it’s “you and I like a similar thing” Going outside the interest group, it’s “you and I are friends.” That’s a big leap, and takes a significant amount of time or some real interpersonal connection. Unless you happen upon a secondary interest that you and they share, don’t expect much beyond maybe “have a beer together”.
This is it. Become genuine friends within the hobby group, then you become friends outside it. It's the same with work, build up a good friendship at work and it can translate outside. You can't force people to be your friends. I have several friends resulting from both groups.
Eloquently put!
And sometimes through incidental chatter you discover other interests that you can get folded into. A guy in my kendo dojo found out I played guitar, so he invited me out to jam sessions with his other friends. When he saw I had some cool thrifted clothes, he took me and his son out to a flea market and we just tried stuff on and shot the shit. But I've never gotten invited to just dinner/drinks here, outside of a date or a structured event within one of the hobby groups.
>Do Japanese tend to not socialize in their hobby groups for purposes other than the hobby? Yeah, sums it up. Even my cliques from high school days that I occasionally hang with don't really open up to anything outside of the hobby. So no intimate communication, its just people vibing under a lot of common hobbies and videogames. Not saying its a representation of 100% of Japanese people but typically people don't share intimate details about family or lifestyle in the way Westerners might as friend. So sometimes I feel like my old time friends are more like good acquaintances than friends. That's not to say its a bad thing, though. Sometimes we just don't like having personal insecurities called out or explored into by others, so its nice that any Japanese space (not just hobbies) know how to keep to themselves rather than being in-your-face with everything. The dynamics are just... different. But take it with a grain of salt though because I'm a Japanese guy with Japan fatigue.
What's it like having Japan fatigue as a Japanese? Edit: lovin the jokes below, but if the commenter comes back, I was seriously asking what it's like having Japan fatigue as a Japanese person. I've heard my spouse express similar things, and I was just curious how another person might describe it. No need to reply if you don't feel like it, obvs. Thanks for sharing above. As far as friends from different stages and even activities in life, I have that too as an American. Seems a natural thing when people aren't tied to one small community indefinitely.
He meant that he wears military attire at home.
And what is pain?! French bread!
I feel like Kojima really understood my struggle as a French person. Once you go abread, you'll always feel that phantom pain, the bakeries you've lost.
Now I have known pain
There are sometimes personal interest stories about Japanese researchers who know nothing about the outside world but are thrust into a foreign grad school and then they report that some basic modes of social interaction completely common in the world are things they never even imagined human beings did, because nothing like that happened in Japan.
So who are your current friends? Childhood friends you made in elementary school? People raised outside Japan?
My high school friends are friends. The friends I made in my international uni days are friends. A lot of them are American. People I've bonded with at work are friends. They come from all over the world. People I meet in online games are friends. Dynamics for each are different. But friends nonetheless.
You sound great. I want to be your friend 🥹
But there is a level right? You wouldn’t deem those people you’ve bonded at work to be at the same level as someone you grew up together with being close, would you?
Yes of course, but I think my outlook on friendship might be a little different from some people because I moved places a lot as a kid and learned to just get along with whoever is in my space at the time. I'm never exclusive to a singular group.
Ahh I see. Getting along with people is good and great. Personally, I don’t use the word “friend” lightly to any people I get along with or just happened to be with and have good enough not deep relations but I get the gist of what you’re saying.
Yea, definitely noticed this here as well, even amongst Japanese. I think it’s because you’re expected to go all in with any activity here, including drinking. There is no casual pint at the bar here. You’re either all in or you should see yourself out.
Is it specific to Japan though ? You can't be friends with anyone. It is not because you do activities with someone that you are friends. And in my opinion it also good that way, less stressfull, you just fit in by doing the activity no time lost on social interactions. Where are you from?
It's pretty specific to Japan based on my experience. I lived in several countries in my life and had no problem doing exactly this with my hobby group members.
It is a thing in the Netherlands too, famously, but globally it’s not common. When I lived in NL everybody complained about it. Very similar mentality on friendships between the Netherlands and Japan strangely.
I hang out with my hobby group outside of the hobby almost every week. We chat almost every day. It depends on you and the people.
What's the hobby?
>What's the hobby? Friendship
Friends for an hour
I don’t think so. I participate with a “hobby” group and we used to hang out after the meet up, izakayas, karaoke, etc
I've found that many Japanese people love going out to drink. It may not be "friends" but going out to drink after an event has been pretty common for me. That's pretty much how I met my ex and a friend that left for NA.
I mean are these people your friends to where they would want to go to the movies with you etc? I mean I'm in a few crafting hobby groups and we do go to workshops together but we as a hobby group don't go out and do other non-hobby things together. The point of the group is to partake in the hobby, not go watch a movie. Granted I swap ideas and supply finds with a girl I'm much closer with and we meet up outside of the hobby group but that's because we have an established friendship but no one is out there trying to get the whole group to do an unrelated activity unless it's like a once a year group bbq or something. Hobbies are a great way to meet people and make friends. But being in a hobby group doesn't automatically make everyone your friend. Does that make sense?
I'd say it really just depends. When I go to something, I go for the activity, not to make friends. That doesn't mean I'm standing glaring at people, but if I'm going to yoga, I want to concentrate on that. I've been invited out by people who were in the same exercise group as me and the invites ended up being requests for English lessons. No, thanks! But now that I think about it, the group things I've done tended to have people who were interested in meeting up after and having drinks or dinner. But....I also think there's a split between "older" people who want to do that and people in their 20s who'd rather head straight home.
[удалено]
My friend told me it’s common to go to neighborhood izakaya here and have drinking friends for years and have it just be that. They don’t even know what the other person does for work.
Man, I'm not even Japanese and I noticed I do that a lot. I gotta open up some more.
I've noticed that millennial Americans have picked up some social habits from East Asia and I'm only saying that because I noticed it more on the West Coast than the East. Things like ending a relationships just by ghosting. Or like giving your phone number to anyone who asks with no intention of ever talking to them. That didn't fly on the East Coast.
I always find it funny how none of my wife's friends have ever met each other. With the exception of.... the (Japanese) friends she made while living in Europe who now live in Japan.
It’s funny how people here often suggest to go to these hobby groups to find friends yet here everyone is like yeah duh, people are just there to spend time for their hobby. This is the peak japanlife moment for me…
With Japanese people you have to make the first move. That’s pretty much it. Approach the people you want to be friends with. Start a small talk about their clothes or something and ask if they have insta. I feel it’s easier to let them stalk you online and be semi online friends first instead of opening up at first. Idk if you’re a woman though. But it seems harder for them. My partner is Japanese and she also struggles to find meaningful friendship with girls because she didn’t grow up there. Her friends seem a bit envious of her
What if you don't use Instagram? I keep my personal life to myself.
To be honest, that will make it harder. I will happily share my social media accounts with people I’ve met once and enjoyed chatting with, but there’s no way I’d share my Line or phone number. Even if you don’t post much, having an insta or twitter will make it easier to make connections.
As a probably older person that is wild to me. I'm fine giving out line / phone no. because I can always just ignore that person's messages and calls if I want. Social media however shows where I've been, where I hang out often, who I know, what I do, if I'm out drinking on a work night, etc. There is so. much. more. info. on there for stalkers. I keep that shit locked down and only add close friends and family now.
I'm the same. My instagram is private and I have very few "friends" by most accounts, but I also post personal stuff about my life. I have another public account that I don't try to promote. I'm not a fan of connecting with people through Instagram or Facebook and using their number of "friends" as some kind of measuring stick. LINE is an option, but I'd almost rather just give them my email address and meet a few times before deciding whether to add them to a social network...but I guess that makes me strange nowadays.
If you always keep your personal life to yourself how can you expect to make friends? The whole point of making friends is sharing your personal life. I’m not saying you need to be an influencer or have a public profile. It’s no different really than when you used to write your phone number on a napkin.
I think that "sharing your personal life" means different things to different people. Some people use Instagram the way Facebook used to be used. As like a "catch all" for anyone and everyone they meet. Their photos are flowers or like an interesting cloud, and they don't even have that many photos overall. I like sharing weird vids or comics I've found. Or raunchy jokes. Or thoughts on politics. Stuff that might be fine with a smaller group that I've known for some time, but wouldn't go over well with someone I just met who doesn't get dark humor. Besides, when people wrote phone numbers on napkins, it was to a landline and there was no way to immediately tell if the number was fake or not.
Fair enough. But if you want to make friends you have to put yourself out there somehow. If you’re not the most charismatic person it will be difficult without social media, or mutual friends who can introduce you. Sometimes it’s easier to give up and say “it’s impossible to make friends” but these people typically don’t put themselves in a vulnerable position that invites new relationships. This is why people go to bars. Alcohol can be a gateway to friendships because it opens you up. But of course it’s not healthy. You have to find other ways.
Yeah, I think it's a process and it's hard to know for foreigners in Japan how much is personality, environment, or anything else. I do think that people should think about what kind of friendships they want because that seems to be an ever bigger global issue. People seem to want close connections and as want to be unburdened by close connections. I've kind of met my friendship capacity, and I'm being more selective in how I go about new friendships.
I have group chats or single DMs with my friends. We like to talk about what happened during my the workday or upcoming plans or causes of life stress. Messenger or LINE is good for that. I never got on board with posting pictures of my vacation or the food I'm eating. Getting いいね on pictures from strangers feels weird to me. When I share a picture with my friends, it's because I want a conversation. I'm not throwing content on the internet for reactions. At least not when my identity is involved. I don't have much of a public profile for people to stalk. I think I'm too young to experience writing phone numbers on napkins. Facebook was already established by the time I was on the internet. I still use Facebook Messenger daily. But my latest FB update is from 2017. It's all DMs.
My profile is private. But if I meet someone I want to be friends with I let them follow me. I post my projects and vacations but I don’t post random selfies or something like this for no reason. It’s not that deep to where people would know all my personal data, but they can learn things about me outside of just the place I met them and it makes a basis for conversation.
I played golf with the same group for 12 years every weekend, other than the Saturday / Sunday morning meet up and play, we never did anything socially, haha!
Depends on what kind of hobbies. Online game or crafts group are less likely to hang out vs sports folks.
An excellent and true observation, the source of which goes beyond what people said about Japanese people being busy. They are quite busy, but most importantly they are "busy". Recently someone posted an excellent explanation of how friendships in Japan are very different from what we're used to in the west. In that friendship ends the moment the hierarchical social context for the friendship ends. Say, if you're classmates, or coworkers, even if you're close friends, you'll be ghosted the moment the roles that bound you together are severed (say, you're no longer coworkers because one of you quit or was fired). An exception for some reason would be related to friendships from the adolescent years ("childhood friend" being a weak but valid social context). At some point in life, shields go up, and people stop letting new people in on a personal level, where shared experiences or memories you could be making with a newly met person just for their own sake no longer hold much value. So if there is no defined purpose to the relationship, there would be no effort made to pursue it.
You're in Japan. Pay attention to 建前 Tatemae to deduce the 本音 Honne. Saying they are busy is the easy way to avoid "offending you" with an outright "not interested".
My best friends in Japan I’ve met through hobbies. Just finished drinking with them tonight. There are some people in the hobby scene who I wouldn’t hang out with outside of (where we do said hobby) but there are many who I hang out with privately and have gone on vacation with, have met their family etc.
I think it depends, but that's mostly right. It's refreshing to have boundaries like that, especially in adult life.
Trying to befriend them is like trying to catch a shiny pokemon. Too much effort, don't think it's worth it lol. Regular pokemon are perfectly fine.
My Japanese friends are either family friends through my wife or those who have spent significant time overseas. Otherwise, my closest friend circle is largely foreigners. That said, if you have hobby groups that are reflective of lifestyle like surfing, hiking, biking, motorcycle, the arts especially, they seem pretty social. The hobbies focused on getting away from the daily grind, not so much.
Some hobbies are structured a lot like work. You sort of have to dress a certain way, figure out the social structure, keep to your obligations. Maybe less alienation and stress than work.
I'm sure it depends on the hobby, the group of people and your personality. I did not find this to be the case with me. The first time I went to a meet up for my hobby, half the group wanted to friend me on Facebook, and several invited me to other (hard to get ticketed) events that they know I'd never be able to get into. I think it was because I was a foreigner and the fandom was a "foreigner" thing, though. (That is, I'm not into anime, so it wasn't an anime meet up. Imagine, idk, going to a Star Wars meet up or something.) Anyway, they were all super super nice. Like, I had the opposite problem of not wanting to add/hang out with some of them haahahaha
Japanese people, you might say, tend not to socialize - period - for purposes other than the hobby. Japanese are very socially tentative, have maybe a long standing tight knit group, many tend to bounce from friend to friend and back again. The idea is they never really like getting "acquainted" too well with anyone new and try to avoid it for the obligations it can bring to both people. Most of the time, you will meet a new Japanese friend once, and then a few months later again, and then a few months later. It takes a long time to become a regular. Not saying it always works that way, but like my point is "it's not you" it IS that bad for a lot of Japanese people.
I was joking in a comment below but there is a legitimate solution for you. Just join a lot more clubs and stay "booked" how Japanese people are often booked. This will keep you from feeling too lonely, and make it bother you less if one particular group rejects you. Plus, you can do a lot of varied activities not having to do them alone. I think actually this is what many Japanese people do. I think this is what you have to do until something clicks. And it's why people incapable of that level of socialization and constant interaction just end up as hermits since there's no middle ground. I don't know, this is starting to make sense to me. Japanese people are mostly private so you have to kind of guess and infer over time how different people you know spend their time.
Yes you're right
Basically what all the others have mentioned. Other than the hobby group you'll have the end of the and the start of the year parties and that's it. Japanese people don't really get personal with people unless they've known them a long time. This isn't to say all hope is less. Just getting folks to do something outside of the thing you do with them is like a very complicated dance.
Did you try inviting them to have a lunch or dinner after meet up?
You just gotta spend longer time with them, and ease in. You know genuinely be interested but not nosy, maybe ask how work was etc. They're human after all it just they are fucking busy or unwilling.
OK i'm a few shots in and will add. I get if they just want to do the activity but If you nobody socializes what's the point. Some people just want to enjoy the activity i get it, i can respect that. But damn does it feel difficult making friends. Maybe its Tokyo? Back in Kanagawa it wasn't this cold.
Yeah it is Tokyo in some respects. Japanese people (not from Tokyo) joke about it too. Also, "Wait, if no one actually wants to socialize, why are we pretending to do it?" Is something I ended up asking, or something like that, tons of times. I was hurt from being treated a certain way and I got out of that once I realized that perfectly Japanese people were also being treated that way. But, you know, in Japan you just don't ask, "Why are we doing it this way?" And, I don't want to get negative, but people say stuff like Japan is all about "cooperation and harmony" and of course being negative about Japan is a big fat no no, or being negative or observant in general. But, you know, you can also just call what Japan is kind of like, "catty, lazy, cliquishness". Like, there's no reason why a society mustn't be organized that way. I don't mean it so negatively. Just, Japan is a touchy exploitative of the socially low in a way and this "everything is fine, nothing is wrong right now, it's all amazing" line is part of that. So, I think it's okay to admit that social life in Japan can be a bit wonky sometimes it is what it is, don't beat yourself up over it. In fact, a lot of people have to break out of the Japan loop and ask if they really want to live like that for the rest of their life. You can get stuck. Again, this is because the culture is, work harder if you feel you don't fit in. So, you get stuck trying to earn something that might not be there. Still, plenty of people are staying in Japan long term. I would say it does work better for introverts usually. There's kind of an inner tranquility and embrace of aloneness required to thrive there long term.
My experiences reflect the opposite of yours, OP. The 3 times I've been to Japan, I would frequent mahjong parlors, and while there are definitely people who keep to themselves and don't socialize, I've made many friends there. It's not uncommon that we'd go for dinner after a few games and talk strategy and socialize about life or whatever. It may depends on the hobby, but I can only speak for my own experiences.
Did these guys have strange body tattoos and curse a lot?
Maybe the Yakuza was the friends we made along the way
I don't know if it's specifically Japan*ese*, but it's something in the areas of Tokyo I have experience with. From hobby/pastime/volunteer/work circles, I might make a new friend of perhaps 1 in 200 people. It's the same with my spouse. As u/a0me notes, family ties tend to be strong in many cases.
The socialization can be part of it, but it depends on the hobby. However I think they usually like the constant people being there for that particular hobby rather than have any desire to make friendships outside of that time slot (Japanes people also have very little free time...).
This hasn't been my experience at all. If we want to, we go out drinking and maybe even some outside events together. It could be that my hobby (karate) does foster that brother/comrade relationship way more than something like gunpla or online gaming. But even so, when I was part of a gaming group here, when we had time, we'd go out drinking too.
I'm friends with people in my hiking group outside of just our hikes We're busy adults, though, and have other family and friends as well as each other
I think part of it is Japan’s fear (phobia?) of any awkwardness. When you meet someone in the context of a group there’s well defined rules about what to do, how to do it, etc. The purpose is clear. If you meet the same person outside that context, then this all goes out the window and you both have to improvise a whole new social interaction, with potentially disastrous consequences (what if things go wrong???). Maybe what could help is inviting these people to take part in another activity that *also* has very well defined rules, like another related hobby?
What age are we talking about?
Their social calendars are booked. Maybe you’ll be lucky to find someone that isn’t as busy.
Every social group will be different, but in my experience, the Japanese did meet up for other stuff, but didn't invite the foreigners or tell them about it.
Lol, I'm laughing not because them doing this is super bad or anything, but like some people do this so much they forget that it's incredibly rude and do it at times when it's not necessary or appropriate. Like, a context that's totally different and they forget the context has switched because too many of their other clique overlaps and so they end up excluding a huge portion in the new context. By the way, I've seen organizations fail because of this stuff, and surprise people when it happens.
My former Japanese coworker was in a running club, and once he told me exactly the same thing that the members in the club were reluctant to do any other activities other than running. So I believe if you wanna go watch a movie, you need to join a movie club.
Bingo, problem solved. Join a movie club, a drinking club, and talking club, a sightseeing club and then who even needs any friends?
This is just my experience but there's sometimes the feeling that meeting up outside of the hobby with just one or two people is kind of cutting the other members of the group out and might make others feel left out. So I think some hobby groups try to organize group social events like enkais so that all or most members can join together. So either you've picked hobbies where people are just not interested in socializing, which can also happen, or that they're reluctant to meet up without all or most of the group being able to go.
I think you answered your own question. If the reason a group of people meet is to do a certain activity, it seems obvious that this is what they want to do, not socialize, and I’d say this is not exclusively a japan thing.
I think a lot of this is overblown saying it's a "Japanese people thing". A lot of it is simply the issue of getting older and not having long maintained connections to meet friends of friends. Now that I think about it all of my "new"friends back home were people I met through friends from college. Making new friends as an adult is just hard anywhere
After a couple of years I have found that the only people I can be 'normal' friends with seem to be either Japanese people who have lived abroad, or other foreigners.
My favorite thing about Japan is that people leave you alone. The autistic focus on a single purpose is much more enjoyable imo than being forced to spend time with people you dont care about very much or wiggling around private meetups. „Oh yeah let‘s get coffee some day“ is just so dishonest
That doesn't have anything to do with being Japanese or anything, just that you are not liked by the group members.
Depends. A lot of groups specifically don't include anyone in anything else going on in their lives. Second, there are situations where what you said is true, but the way you put it makes it sound like the person is "disliked" when instead it's more that they don't have enough rapport for any reasonable Japanese to ever consider including them at that level yet. But, yeah, sometimes they just don't want to hang out with some people.
If the Japanese really have feelings for him, they will get together and enjoy themselves even on holidays. In other words, they are not interested in the other person. That doesn't make me wonder; I wonder if he doesn't have the ability to read the air.
[удалено]
That's not true. The vast majority of humans, including Japanese, are indifferent to the vast majority of people they meet. Being unimportant to people doesn't mean you are a bad person. You're simply doing the Japanese thing of reacting to him complaining. I admit, complaining is rude if you can't accept your circumstances. But he has not done anything bad, you are trying to punish him for standing out. Of course, you know in an English speaking forum, this will make no sense so you have to invent a fake sense of him being bad in some other way. This punishment culture in japan never made sense to me. Just tell him his complaints are a bit inconsiderate and everyone has to deal with this kind of situation. Instead you feel the need to become the hammer that must hit the nail that stands out. Your hammer is bigger than the nail, anyone can see it.
It is your fault that you could not live well in Japan. You have a problem with your character. What is the difference between you and the foreigners here who also get along with Japanese people? You should think about it. The problem is that you think that the Japanese are to blame for everything. You just don't understand it. Are you living abroad now? Your character is not suited for Japan.
I wasn't talking about myself. The fact you made it about me proves you are a bully. Now you say I claim the "Japanese are to blame for everything"? That's such an extreme statement and so far beyond anything I said. Frankly, you argue like the most mentally unstable woman, and the most immature child.