The amount of assholes my brother seems to have worked for is shocking. I've never had it as bad as he seems to on the regular. Your feelings and rights aren't worth a damn in construction. Edit: It should be said my brother is in the wrong at times too, but I am talking about not uncommon amounts of wage/tool theft and threats way beyond anything he would deserve. I work very different jobs and have never experienced anything like that. Plus he has worked for some saints by his own admission too.

I often wish I had stayed in construction, but I always forget how every job was filled with toxic machismo attitudes and hot heads. The work is exhausting and dealing with that atmosphere is even more so.

I don't work for them but I do work with them as a 3rd party contractor. It's funny how their attitude can change when you're not their employee.

Please share more, this sounds fulfilling

An upside of working as an employee under a general contractor is more steady work. Being an independent contractor you always have to be getting the next contract. That said, as an independent contractor the general is legally not allowed to tell you how to do your job. You just have to be on the schedule you bid. Show up when you want, get your work done, get out, get paid. Though it's still better to show up earlier in the day than you might want, because appearances are huge. Also sometimes it's like pulling teeth trying to convince a general that doing it *this way* is going to be way better.

I once did something stupid because of a contractor. I warned him it was stupid, explained why it was stupid and he told me to do it anyways in a very condescending tone. I did about $40k in damages in less than 20 minutes. He took my advice after that.

I feel like that had to be tremendously satisfying.

I had a blast. It wasn't the only time I broke something I wasn't supposed to at that job but it was one of my favorite moments for malicious compliance. It was a demolition company and I was 18. My boss would sometimes tell me something wasn't supposed to get broken when it really was just to see how I'd go about making it look like an accident. I USUALLY avoided breaking anything I knew would get him in trouble but if I knew he'd already argued with a contractor about something being in the way and that what they were asking us to do wasn't feasible I'd kinda go out of my way to destroy whatever it was.

What the hell -- this sounds crazy interesting. I'd like to read a long article about this kind of insanity and destruction.

I could write a book about those two years of my life lol. My direct supervisor was an anarchist who encouraged the chaos. The owner of the company had the places we were working sign a contract stating that anything inside the demolition area was ours when we arrived. So it was a mad dash to steal whatever we saw in our area, we'd have to bring everything back and the owner would pick through it to see if there was anything he wanted and after that we got to keep our loot. It was also super dangerous, I didn't even know what OSHA was until about a year into working there and the phrase I heard most often was "that's really dangerous, I've got kids, get *me* to do it". There's much much more. Edited to fix the ridiculous quote I heard so often.

Yeah but this guy needs help and training no one is going to pay for a contract that requires help and training. OP has to study and watch videos off the clock to learn or has to get lucky and meet the right boomer who wants to teach the next generation something instead of using them as punching bags. In my experience though the asshole himself doesn't know the answer so he is acting out in anger I stead of killing his ego and saying I don't know look it up.

that is what my dad does to prepare for a job he watches youtube

It baffles me how a stranger freely tells you what to do, but an actual person who can do the job guards his information (instructions/training to others) like a paranoid

Same here. Having more experience then your clients helps too

I work a nice cushy desk job now but sometimes (especially when it's nice out) I miss working construction just for the sake of being outside and doing some physical activity. But then I remember just how enormously gross, mean, discriminatory, sexist, and basically any other negative trait I can think of. I started just staring at people with a blank expression when they'd yell at me, which would just make them madder haha. Or if they made sexist/discriminatory/otherwise not appropriate I would ask them to explain it, and not back down or let the conversation change until they actually explain it to me. Like I don't know how hard it is to just go to work, do your job, and not say racial slurs every 10 minutes

Construction of an apartment complex has just begun right next to my house. Just the other day, I was woken up by the sound of an angle grinder at 5:30 am. I had an important meeting that day so I was pretty annoyed. I went to the construction site and asked the foreman if they had a permit to start working that early. He straight up told me “not to bother him” and proceeded to scream instructions at his men while completely ignoring my presence. I ended up calling the cops. Petty move, I know, but turned out they couldn’t start working till 8! If foremen like that guy and blatant violations of labor law are common in construction, I can tell why no one wants to work in that industry.

To think, he could have pretended to negotiate with you and arrive at whatever time you'd accept, such as 7. But because he was hoping you'd just go away if he was enough of an ass, the time is now 8 or you call the cops again.

This shouldn't be a surprise, trades especially ones that rely more on physical attributes tend to attract a certain demographic, meatheads and macho wannabes . Now granted not everyone is like that but many are. Its the nature of the job...

Lol no wonder the industry's fucking dying, it's filled with chuds

I'm taking time from my normal serving career, picked up a couple months labor job at a good wage. A dude I used to call a friend (not a long story, just not very interesting, were still fine just not tight) came in to help us for a couple of hours one day. Schlepping 90lbs sheets of plywood up to staircases. He's going on about how he does "mans work" everyday, referring to my cushy serving bartending jobs, and wasn't happy when I pointed out that we've made the same number of trips carrying stuff, and I'm fine while he's huffing like his little heart is gonna explode. So yeah, good job bud, you've destroyed your body and mind with drugs and hard labor, you live with your mom, I can still lift more than you despite my "not a man's job", and I make a lot more money lol. While you've lost all your close friends, nobody lets you borrow their stuff, and you can't keep a stable job. Maybe I needed to get that off my chest lol

Construction work and the construction trades are absolutely filled with the biggest amount of bigoted, emotionally immature men that I have ever met in my entire fucking life. These people think they are tough yet they little whine and complain about everything. Then their solution is to throw a tantrum. Fucking snowflakes. I finished my apprenticeship and went to the public sector were at least HR will absolutely shit can anyone who steps out of line for any of the vile bigoted shit I had to listen to. We need smarter trades people, but why would any kid want to go to get yelled at by some grizzled old impotent, self-important alcoholic wank-stain fuckstick asshole tiny brain lead poisoned black lung cunt? Fuck that noise. A shower of absolute degenerate bastards. And before some dick says "not all tradespeople". You're right, but I have been an electrician for 10 years now and honestly this dick brain idiotic racist bigoted sexist attitude permeates the culture here in Canada. Even the younger people have been infected.

This, right here. I got downvoted to hell previously when i said unions were hell for guys fresh out of highschool in their early 20s. Go to a frat, get hazed. Go to the union like everyones suggesting? still get hazed and berated. Why in the hell would anyone want to do that? I'll take my shitty pay and stay in college rather than dealing with 14 miserable old drunks that bitch about anyone parking a non-domestic vehicle on their jobsite. Thanks for reinforcing the idea that I'm not actually insane for thinking this and experiencing this lol

You're not insane. I'm an electrician and I absolutely love my job. But I took a big pay cut and went public sector for my own sanity. We weed those kinds of people out in my organization. Yea, they really are a bunch of abusive assholes. Ohh you have to have a thick skin and be tough to be in the trades. Which translates to "let us create an environment so downright toxic as to cause a worker shortage when young people won't put up with your shit." I never, ever let anyone yell at me or speak to me in any disrespectful way. I'd just walk away and not even engage. What are they going to do, yell louder 😆. How can an apprentice learn? or even own up to their mistakes when they know that it comes complete with a daily yelling from some emotionally immature wish dot com sasquasch? Any other professional environment and people would be fired on the spot for some of the behaviour I have witnessed. These jobs are super neccessary for society and subsequently the people who work them should be held to the same professional standards as a doctor or nurse or lawyer or any other skilled professional. But they aren't and it is pathetic.

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Chef here and I 100% agree with this statement. My industry is the exact same way. We were told we were exempt from COVID rules and had to keep making food for everyone during their 2 week vacation. Food service jobs had one of the highest rates of mortality from COVID but no one gives two shits. They just want their fucking hamburger. And restaurant owners treated all their employees like trash before Covid and now it’s “no one wants to work anymore”. No we all just realized there’s better ways to make money then this.

Yep. All the essential workers. Really means expendable. Never got any kind of hazard pay or bonus. I'd still like my two weeks vacation or extra $600 a week super unemployment. I'm just a little bit bitter. But hey, we got to be heroes.

We clapped for you at 7pm for a couple weeks. What more do you want?

reddit hurt itself in its confusion!

ironically that's how i paid my rent, I showed them my hero certificate from work.

Fuck. I had two roommates who were layed off during Covid. I was essential. Working every fucking week. It was wild getting paid less than $400/week to work and roommates getting $900/wk to stay home. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not mad at them. I’m upset at my company for undervaluing me. I want everyone to be paid what they are worth and I’m happy my roommates were able to get financial support at that time. It still sucked ass. For the cherry on top I was paying one of them $300 a month to use their car to get to and from work. I’m a little peeved that I didn’t try to negotiate with them on that.

COVID made me finally get out of restaurants after ten years. I drive a locomotive now

That’s legit. Heck of a transition lol. How did you get there

He drove there.


With a chugga chugga and a choo choo!

Went from no days off and poor to no days off and flush with cash huh?

It was really ironic how the most pro-lockdown “stay home save lives” people depended so much on cooks, chefs, shoppers and delivery drivers. It really exposed the divide-people who could easily work from home and lose none of their quality of life, and people who had to keep working at risk to make them comfortable.

It's also a class divide. All the poor people still had to work because they work restaurants, retail etc... Very few of the low income job tiers were WFH.

16 years of eating s*** as a line cook/sous chef and I said "nope." Went to community College at 30 to get a degree as an electronics technician and never looked back. I STILL have night sweats sometimes and nightmares about the line. No joke. It's been 8 years away from that hell. I'll never let my kids work in restaurants, EVER.

Saw my brother start working at Dennys to working as a Executive chef eventually. He had enough of the games and left the industry. I never knew how bad it was. Everyone wants Sous chef or Executive. People will fuck you out of their jobs to get ahead. My brothers got let go x2 times as a Sous chef. The new Executive chef brought their own Sous chef. After work. Everyone drinks and a lot of drugs. It’s a mess. I used to love watching Hell’s Kitchen. Now I cringe at the show.

I’ve been a chef for many years as well. This is 100% true. As the EC in my own establishment, I have made it a point to treat my cooks, dish dudes, and FOH staff like the solid gold people that they are. I was verbally abused by so many chefs while working my way up through the ranks. COVID has made restaurant work so much harder. And even though I treat my people well, it’s become nearly impossible to fill open positions because our industry as a whole has such a bad reputation. It’s too toxic, and it’s too late to save it

Eventually there will be a return, but the new people coming in really don't take the toxic shit anymore. They'll jump ship to a better spot

I still believe the environment can be changed and it slowly slowly is. I agree though it's really sad when I hire a new employee for my kitchen & the majority of them tell me. -they're so happy I'm nice. (naggy & uptight, but nice) -thanks for not screaming obscenities at me -they feel I have their back at the same time though I worked really hard to be in a position of power to create the environment I always wanted to be in.

I was working retail when Covid shutdowns started (I’d just moved to a new place and needed income while I looked for a better job). At first people were scared, and thankful for us being there. I remember women who brought us individually wrapped cookies to thank us! But that wore off and after months of shortages, people were openly hostile to us because we were servants who were failing to serve them properly. I escaped as soon as lockdowns ended, but my opinion of humanity will never recover from working retail all of 2020. The masks came off in more than one way.

Resort Condo Hospitality did me in! Worked all through COVID. Others were off work paid and even got a gift card from the state to spend in the restaurants. Those of us still working did not! It was skewed. My work was not essential but I had to be at the desk to smile at the 5 condo owners who were actually there each day. (Hawaii and state was shut down, no tourists). Then people started coming back and acting like absolute Neanderthals.

I just got finished posting a comment somewhere else saying basically people have determined that they either work smarter not harder, or just don't work hard at all bc why bother

I don’t understand. So since the industry treats people bad that means the people who work for it can treat other people who are entering and trying to learn the industry bad too? Honestly that’s not an excuse. What industry doesn’t treat employees like they’re expendable? And actually pay them what they’re worthy? Not many if any at all. But that doesn’t give every person with a job to treat people like crap.

It's the same thing in families, people who were treated like shit usually treat their own kids the same way, unless they are self-aware enough to realize it's shitty and break the cycle of abuse. My parents were not, I gradually wised up when I had a child. But I wish someone could have said something to me when I was younger... people just internalize their awful situation as normal at the time.

I've belonged to 4 different unions, and none of them were a good experience. Back in the 90s I walked away from the Laborers union because of the toxicity dealing with my fellow union brothers. The unions try to sell you on the whole "labor vs management" thing, and some of that is true, but what they don't admit is that there is a whole lot of "labor vs labor" going on as well. By that I mean not just the union guys against the non-union guys, but also a tremendous amount of politics and back stabbing with the ranks.

Have a buddy that worked in landscaping and it was the same thing. Bunch of wannabe tough guys that were falling apart by the tough labor and not taking care of themselves, and they'd tell him the same machismo crap, "tough it out and ignore any risks or else you're not a real man".

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Yeah it seems like they want you to work into an early grave and be grateful for it

I worked construction and I will attest that their situation is not unique. Worksites are full of dudes suffering from fragile masculinity. They dump on the newest guys because they think it’s their birthright. That’s how they were treated when they were an apprentice and “made them the man they are today.” This all comes with a caveat. If you’re new you don’t know everything. (In some cases you might not know anything.) If you walk onto the job site with a chip on your shoulder while walking about aimlessly and doing a shitty job you’re going to get knocked down a peg. Effort is rewarded. There’s nothing these macho douches love more than to show somebody how good they are at doing shit. Ask for pointers often. “Hey, is this right?” “Hey, can you show me how to do that?” The smallest bit of hustle and ambition will get you tons of respect. You can go from “Get the fuck out of the way.” to “Wanna go get a taco with us?” in less than a day.

Maybe that’s why I did so well as an electrical apprentice. I asked my journeymen a lot of questions. They really do want to show you their skills. They always lit up when I was genuine. The hothead and egotistical apprentices were given the worst jobs and passed around journeymen to journeymen like an unwanted Christmas present. I will add, mental health and alcohol/ drug dependency is a huge issue on the job site. Boomer machismo is losing steam. Young people aren’t putting up with the yelling and throwing shit. The examples their shown, nopes them into another career. Not surprised, and is the reason I went in to residential service work. I only deal with the customer. I’m not a fan of commercial job sites. I wonder if industrial fairs better.

The Boomers are also retiring and dying too, so that helps

It's not just trades, but office jobs too. Look at this guy: https://youtube.com/shorts/8DEi3EfM8Z4?feature=share

I was a female in the plumbing field for 3 years. I was verbally abused, harassed, gaslit, and berated on so many occasions I can’t even count them. I wholeheartedly agree with your viewpoint, and you’re absolutely right. The most ironic thing about the entire situation is as you said it - they complain, without ever looking at their own selves. They are stupid and stubborn and don’t want to look inward because that would hurt their OWN ego and sense of pride. Because when they were your age, they were treated like shit and didn’t have many other options. Now they take out that anger on other people because it’s all they knew. You have 2 options. Either be the brightest light you can be (pun intended), get through your apprenticeship and be the better example later on OR quit. I quit. I had to, for my health mentally and physically. The trades will only change when we do something about it. My voice wasn’t big enough, especially being a woman in that field. Maybe yours can be. Maybe not. When there is an actual crisis of trade worker shortages, things will change.

I'd never recommend a woman go into the trades... It's not PC but it's true, every woman who does it has a story exactly like what you described. Very few stick it out, despite what yt shorts and tiktoc tell young women in videos of an instagram model climbing a ladder and installing a light fixture and her ass is center frame vs the actual work. I personally feel 99% of the videos of women doing trade work are fake on socials.

The only women working more than a few years in the trades I've met are muscular butch lesbians because they don't take shit from the men they are working with. Might be a stereotype, but those do exist for a reason. And this is in a 'progressive' western European country.

You’re 100% correct on the first half. On the second half, I can say it’s half correct. I was one of those instagram trade girlies. Trust me, I did the work. But after the novelty wore off that I was a female on the job, so did the guys wanting to teach me. I can say there are a lot of attention seeking women in the trades on social media, but there are also a lot of great ones who are honestly trying their best to promote the trades for women.

I was a woman welder for 7 years and finally had enough. I might have been able to cope with it but the benefits for non union members is awful across the board. Like. No fucking vacation basically, no sick leave, no pto. I got maybe 2 weeks paid vacation per year, if i was sick for 2 weeks and had no vacation left, i didnt get paid for 2 weeks. The long hours, shit people, lack of benefits, and shitty working conditions gave me a horrible mental breakdown and now I just work part time as a maintenance person. I can't stand the "why aren't people getting into trades" crowd. Yall fucking know why. Also the pay is shit. I worked on shit for airplanes and the govt. Complicated things, i wasnt just a mig robot. I had to have so many certs and know how to work on so many complex things... and still couldnt get over $25 an hour. Company always bragged about how much they were making that year but I couldn't hit over 50k a year unless I wanted to do OT. And none of my male coworkers were willing to speak up about the lack of vacation and low pay because "rEaL mEn pUlL uP ThEiR bOoTsTrApS". Then suffer without me, I'm fucking done. Bye.

Good job on standing up for yourself and making that decision. These men are just stupid and stubborn, like bulls. Let them be whatever they want to be and you go be happy and keep your peace 🤣

I went to trade school for building construction, knew enough going in I was running a crew by the second year. Got all the osha certs, safety courses, etc. Went looking for a job after graduation with the backing of the teacher and admins and was told time and time again "we don't believe you're up for the job" "this isn't easy work and you don't look like you'll be able to keep up the pace" and just several variations of that. Yes I have tits and a vagina, yes I weigh the same as your thick skull but none of that stops me from hauling a pack of shingles up a ladder or cracking down with a jackhammer. Got a fancy piece of paper saying I'm fully taught and certified to put up your freaking drywall but because I dared to be a woman I couldn't ever get a job in the field. I do build my own furniture now though so I guess school wasn't a total waste of time.

I’ve watched incredibly skilled, overqualified women have to work twice as hard for half the recognition that a male counterpart would get. And when that recognition actually happens, it’s always some old asshole patronizing her and using her work - that passes every inspection with flying colors - just to put down a male who is performing poorly “look, even SHE does xComplicatedTaskx better than you.” Twice as hard for half of the recognition. I can’t wait for these crusty fucking toxic ass boomers to just retire or die already so we can finally start to have work environments that genuinely attract the most skilled workers. As it is right now, the only ones were going to get are the most desperate, the most resilient, or the most toxic - none of which should be a job requirement.

No have been a tradesman since 1987 and it never changes the first 5 years you are mistreated and underpaid. But "no one wants to work anymore" no this gen is tired of the crap.

I think this new gen isn't up for the 5 years of mistreatment. They are willing to walk away. This is leaving an aging workforce and no one learning to replace them. My generation which is in between was sold on university being thr only way so few of us went into trades We are going to be in serious trouble in the next 10 to 15 years if the old birds don't change their ways and start being nicer to the trainees

I'm on the line between millenial and gen z and I can confirm that our generations won't put up with disrespect. I've busted my ass and made something for myself so it's not that we don't want to work. We just won't work for assholes. I can't even remember how many times I've told people to fuck off when they're being rude. People really hate being called out on their shit

It's honestly refreshing that you won't put up with toxicity. Maybe your generation will seriously change things for the better.

This is why I love Gen Z. They don't put up with shit. Meanwhile, Boomers seem to ONLY dish out shit. It's a nice contrast on both ends of the spectrum.

It reminds me of that boomer meme that talks about how kids need to get used to someone being hard on them. As an adult that logic still applies. They expect you to be used to someone being hard on you. But if you don't take it or dish it back then YOU are the one at fault. How dare you not take the disrespect. It's not that hard to get your point across without being an asshole or super shitty.

I remember the look on my boomer coworkers faces when I said I am not working past 5 every single day. They said I had to because everyone else did. They all sat there doing nothing well past 5 to wait until the boss went home. They looked like I said I was going to break out of prison when I told them I’m going home once my work was done. Boomers are something else.

As soon as boomers just get the fuck out their way, their generation is going to actually make change

I leave so many jobs because I get treated so poorly. It's so hard to find a good boss who actually helps you grow. I just don't want to be treated like I'm subhuman scum with no intelligence. Mentally I can't handle it. And it ends up wrecking me physically too.

Older Gen Z here. I grew up being abused, and when I got out I swore I wouldn’t put up with the BS. I haven’t survived hell only to let a boomer disrespect me. I’ve told ppl to fuck off, told neighbors who knew my family the truth about them. I refuse to take shit, or be quiet. I heard my partners stepdad say that “no one wants to work anymore”. I told him that people don’t wanna work for slave wages and shitty bosses. The conversation ended after that.

The ones that came before us put up with it because it was a small price to pay for an extraordinarily cushy life. Now we are given nothing. What's my incentive to take abuse? There isn't any. So they can go ahead and eat my asshole. We all know what "nobody wants to work" means, it means they are a shit employer and can't keep workers. so I'll just fucking beat it like everyone else did and have a better job lined up next month

Why would they care, they're going to do the same thing they always do: fuck up everything they were given and pull up the ladder after them whilst spitting on the people climbing up with their bare hands. Have you ever tried to get people to reflect on their actions/attitude when they've been given everything they ever wanted in life with ease and degrade other people trying to do the same as them but with 10% of the pay off?

Was gonna say the same. They have zero reason to care about the trade industry, because they've already worked, saved for a retirement, and are ready to live the last most-relaxing part of their lives. The only boomers that might care are the business owners, whose business will die without fresh blood.

Even better, they can retire but work part time for a higher rate as the labor demand stays consistent but the supply decreases.

>saved for a retirement Statistically incorrect. Most boomers are broke as shit. > A 2022 report from the Transamerica Center for Retirement Studies estimates that **the median retirement savings of boomers totals $202,000.** That might sound like a respectable amount of cash, but that produces just $8,080 a year, or $673 a month.

A) that isn’t including social security: “According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), the average monthly retirement benefit for Security Security recipients is $1,781.63 as of February.”— https://finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/average-social-security-benefit-every-120016509.html And b) we’re talking about retirees FROM THE TRADES, who are probably doing a lot better on average.

I went to a trade college on a government program for displaced workers. After three years I had to give up. I am old (I was 55 when I graduated.) and everyone who hired me just used me as manual labor and laid me off. Usually on a "must finish or get sued" contract. I have a very unigue name. If you Google me, you can find out my name is 60 seconds. Google has changed slightly, so if you don't put where I live, it's not in the first five results now. I mean no other human attached to the Internet (About 1/3 of the world's population.) has this name. I essentially am unhirable because of age. I know "That's Illegal!". To you I say, "Prove It". So I have a government paid AAS, and I did the job in the military (Decades ago, but degree is a few years ago.) but no one will hire me permanently. Of course they all want you to do ass busting installations for five years (They don't want to do them. Too old and "experienced" they say.) and yell at you. I got fired once when a guy who used to be a union apprentice teacher in a big city was supposed to "teach me". There's a reason he left (Or got fired most likely.) from a $60 an hour job yeaching, it was he was a screaming "A-hole" who refused to teach me after 5 days. So it's not because you're young. I assume the "good guys" won't work at places that take on unexpeirnced workers. I taught people on and off for decades working production jobs. Even had folks that had to be fired, they were useless. I never yelled at them.

>was sold on university being thr only way I wonder, in retrospect, how much of that is just nudging kids to stay the fuck away from the toxic working environments (literal and personal) people are describing here.

There's also a decent amount of it being people who destroyed their bodies with decades of manual work wanting better for their kids. I have friends in trade jobs, and having busted knees and multiple gnarly scars at age 30... part of the work is you're selling your body. There's ways to make the jobs safer, some mandated, but that costs time and money that their employers won't allow for.

This is an excellent point. My grandfather was a master mechanic. He refused to teach any of his children his trade (outside of basics like changing a tire/oil or brakes) and encouraged them all to go to college instead. His reasoning was that he knew how hard the trades are on your body, because his had taken a beating over the years

To pile on, my dad is a carpenter. He's 62 and always complaining about how sore and tired his body is. But he won't stop working. I can't bring myself to live like that and I don't understand it.

And this is the reason why I don’t fear “automation and AI taking over our jobs”. Better technology costs money. Some businesses see that and they pay for it. But most businesses WONT buy this stuff. It’s too expensive, and requires an advanced knowledge to use it and maintain it. There are exponentially more businesses willing to put you through hell for their own profit, and they have never given a shit about you or your precious body. You are a cog, you always will be a cog, and the moment you become any kind of a problem (like, say, asking for a raise), they hit the red button and eject you.

Just want to point out that no matter what the seemingly coordinated media hysteria over AI killing jobs says, it's actually far more of a threat to jobs that aren't easily automated but also aren't as special as society has made them to be (with commensurate pay): middle management, CEOs, private equity research, asset management, legal automation... we've had algos and automation for decades. We've never had computers that could take in a number of often ephemeral factors plus concrete numbers and research, the way a manager or CEO is expected to and then deliver an answer that hits a specified number of targets and appears to possess reasoning ability. In short: a growing body of research suggests that the industries most likely to be disrupted by AI are the financial, legal, and management sectors. But I'll bet a good percentage of the articles written everyday throw up a photo of a person on an assembly line or some harried, overworked person at a desk with a manager giving side eye over their shoulder. It's actually the manager who needs to worry.

that's what I was getting at with *literal*\-- between using your body and breathing in god-knows-what all day every day (and getting insults if you try to protect yourself)...

Oof... I've heard horrible tales about abusive customers too, and my friends are male. I can only imagine what some of the women get from customers and coworkers.

Not to mention the severely dated pay rates. I'm making what someone in my job title with my experience would have been making in 2002, which means I'm actually making ~2/3 of what someone with my job title was making in 2002. 2002 guys were able to support a family and buy a nice house in a nice neighborhood I'm barely able to support living alone.

Nobody should have to put up with mistreatment. It's a sorry state of affairs.

It should be noted that the “new” people are actually people with families, dreams, and problems of their own. Also, some people were just a-holes for so long they believe it is acceptable.

What some tradespeople fail to understand is that a college degree ain't worth shit anymore, and their industry is about to be invaded by young people who previously would have gone to college. These are not the losers* of yesteryear who went into the trades because it's all they could get, and have no other option but to put up with the bullying. These are people who won't tolerate abusive bullshit. *-EDIT: This is not my personal opinion; it refers to the way American society has demonized the trades for a very long time, and declared trade work to be secondary to college-educated work. It's a toxic bullshit mentality, but the phenomena is unfortunately very real.

This is happening everywhere. It has been known for a long time that when you start out in public accounting, you make no money work over 60 hours in a week and are severely mistreated. The younger generation is saying nope, and not taking these jobs. The big four accounting firms are struggling to get new hires. And it makes me happy because no one‘s mental and physical health should suffer for a job just to “pay their dues”

No one wants to work anymore (at a physically demanding job where wages have been stagnant for years, the workers are grumpy old men, the job is actively getting worse, and prices are up 20% from last year so you essentially are living paycheck to paycheck while slowly accumulating dept)

I worked for a bully once. When I was interviewing for my next job, I would share my current experience. I hired on at the company where the interviewer’s response was: “That type of behavior is not tolerated here.” Culture and leadership vary as much as both matter and there are places where unprofessional behavior is simply not part of “how we do business”. Here’s to hoping OP can find such a place. My experience is that the only way to do so is to ask upfront.

Yeah except the recruiter always says that's not how we do things but then you get there it's the same old shit.

As an agency recruiter myself, most of the time we are not told what is going on at a job site unless it comes from the field worker. The sales guys don’t want us to stop sending people because it hurts their commission.

normalization of incompetence does not make it any more acceptable

everyone needs to learn to ignore 99.99% of what recruiters say. they simply do not know. they were hired to recruit for a position they dont understand and were given directions from a 3rd party in HR that doesnt understand the position either. the recruiter is literally a networking tool and nothing more.

I used the term to encompass recruiters working for the company in question as well as external recruiters. I've been recruited by operations management that lied to my face. Hence the statement. In reality you can't trust anything that anyone says. They have a motive, they will lie.

Yeah, except unfortunately *my* experience has shown me that companies like these are the exception, not the rule. I'd say with confidence that about 90% of *all* companies in *every* industry are run by a bunch of sociopathic, abusive masochistic blowhards, who probably go home and drink heavily while beating their spouses...

Every industry. I'm here from higher ed. For the last several years I have been blessed with a lovely VP who used to be a professor and still puts teachers and students first. If we didn't understand a policy she would explain. She's friendly and patient. Then another of the VPs got control of all online classes. He hired a dingbat to be in charge of them and they have systematically destroyed half of our workload. All while sending incomprehensible emails filled with toxic positivity and typos and rules that make no sense. We think it's an end run to replace as many of us as possible with adjuncts. And this is not the most egregious abuse I've seen. I tend to affirm that in all industries many people go into management because they're horrible humans looking for victims.

I also work in higher ed, and I'm trying desperately to get out. I'm in a unique position because I never intended to work at a college, it was just the only job I could find after I finished my degree. In my past I've done everything from sales & marketing to years of food service and construction. So on the one hand, its hilarious to me on a personal level to watch other folks at my institution squirm when I don't jump and clap for "school spirit". On the other, after growing up a preacher's kid, it was deeply unsettling to realize that the office and departmental politics of higher ed are pretty much identical to that of small-town churches. And to your point about managers, I'd just make the addendum that in my experience, there's also just the sad reality that many managers in places like these are only in their positions because they were the people who stayed. Anybody with half a brain and an ounce of self-respect gets out as soon as they can. The ones left over think "wow! I totally got this promotion because I'm good at my job. Definitely not because I'm the only person in the department who didn't quit."

See, I’m feeling the call to the management side because of how many terrible managers I’ve had. I want to set a higher standard and keep people from having that experience. My greatest fear is that I’ll get there and not be able to support the people that I manage because the system that I work for refuses to support me.

Can confirm. My university is run by corrupt grifters, most of whom are utterly incompetent except when it comes to grifting.

>many people go into management because they're horrible humans looking for victims. This right here. I know some in here may take offense to what I said; but I'm not just being indignant for the sake of it. Here's the reality: it's *patently obvious* that by the very nature of the job itself (and by that I mean any job that gives someone authority over subordinates), it will *inevitably* attract the exact type of person you *don't* want with that power. >We think it's an end run to replace as many of us as possible with adjuncts. Wouldn't surprise me: then the district wouldn't have to pay full-time salaries, provide any benefits, or fuck with any teacher's unions. It's everything to do with greed and nothing else. It's a broken system 😔

It’s the reason I haven’t left my job despite pay being on the low end of average for the industry. Pretty much everyone who works here is nice and helpful, no matter what level they’re at. I’ve seen department heads drop everything to help out some entry level workers who were stuck in a bind without a word of censure other than something like, let’s talk to your team lead about some strategies to keep things like this from happening in the future. We’ve had a couple of assholes got hired on, but they’re usually gone before the year is out because that kind of attitude isn’t tolerated. At all. I’ve been here eight years and as much as I want to jump ship for better pay, I know I’ll probably never find a company that’s this chill ever again. That, and the fact that they were mostly remote pre-pandemic and are now fully remote forever, is what’s keeping me where I am.

You can't put a price on that quality of life or peace of mind. You should stay as long as you can afford to.

And what they really meant was “that’s not tolerated in the open, we prefer passive aggression here” as I work for a corporation and it’s rampant.

Ill never forget the time I got a call from my boss saying he was just got done getting bitched out by his boss because when I CC'd the district, regional, and VP executives on a report I didn't CC them in order of their rank. I told him next time to just give them my number and I will tell them directly how fucking stupid and petty that is. (I sort of miss my old job, I was extremely good at it so I could get away with that shit.)

If they're obsessing over that, it's a sign they're desperate for any fight they can win bc they don't know what tf they are doing.

I’ll never forget this story. It’s just short and stupid enough to be a perfect joke. Not you…your boss’s bosses.

I work at a small office and it’s rampant. It’s just everywhere

I sit behind a computer all day. I work for myself now, but worked for several companies before that, and the bullying experience OP talks about was pretty similar to what I had experienced at one job. And in that job, the boss didn't have any appreciable experience and wasn't teaching us anything. We knew way more than he did. So, its not unique to the trades - though I imagine that it could be more prevalent there if its a cultural thing in the trade. And having worked around bunches of men before, sometimes they can be real suck spirals.

Same. I’ve worked for enough assholes that I don’t tolerate that kind of behavior anymore

This is why I quit being a legal secretary. Abuse was just the norm. I went back to school and now I teach science.

Absolute worst boss ever was a county DA I worked for. Great in court but a major a$$hole in the office. Would randomly pick an employee and haul them into his office to ream them out for something trifling and accidental. Would accuse you of lying. Finally offered to fire me or let me resign. I made him fire me so I could collect unemployment. Couldn’t find another job (small depressed town, and I was an over-educated 61-year-old). So eventually got evicted for a few months (stayed with friends, bless them) until I hit 62 and could collect Social Security. Yeah, that was all fun.

This right here. Don’t think that every trade job is like that, especially if doing an apprenticeship. There are tons of great employers out there who want to train you the right way as you’re a direct reflection of their business. Find a better employer to complete your training who is truly invested in you and values your hard work.

work is easy in any job usually, but its always dickheads you meet in the workplace which make it so much harder than it has to be, i dont really care what they say i just work to my contract

Agreed 100%. My Grandpa would say the people you work with are half the battle

My dad told me "it's _almost_ more important *who* hou work with, than *what* " I was unsure pf what to do study or train for, etc., and I was working a part time job. Solid advice.

I’m lucky I came to this realization around age 23 when I was let go from my golf internship that I hated. All the guys I worked with were pretentious jerks and made me realize how many people from my previous sport management internships I didn’t like working with either, despite all these internships being in my preferred industry that I got my degree for. I finally broke down and decided to give up on sport management and just find a decent desk job at a company with a fun culture. Landed a job as a trust and safety associate for Lyft and even though my schedule sucked (2-10:30 PM, Thurs-Mon) and had to deal with crazy people screaming at me for refunds, I loved all my fun, silly coworkers and the camaraderie we built around the crazy people we have to deal with. Being surrounded by people who are fun to work with can make even the worst jobs feel not so bad sometimes. It’s like high school - yeah none of you or your friends want to be there, but getting to hang out with your friends every day makes high school not suck as much because you’re in it together.

Agreed. Most of my jobs would have been a cakewalk if it weren't for difficult and annoying people.

Being on the other side. At my work this summer we hired a couple of students. I don't yell, I try to have patience. When it's time to show them something I get them to do it while I watch. I'll give them the instructions and wait to see them do it. If they do it wrong, I'll repeat the instructions. If they do it wrong again, I'll ask them why they did it that way. This is so I can hear what I said to them. If they repeat what I said, I then ask them why they did it this way. Usually they clue in and make the corrections. But if they repeat something else then I know they are not comprehending the task and I'll explain in a different way.

God bless you for “getting it”. Much like math, some people don’t understand all aspects of a task, so you must explain to them in a different manner so that you end up with the correct solution using a different path. May I ask what line of work you’re in?

I do love using the edge method for teaching skills. Everyone learns differently, but it works more times than not.

What is the edge method?

Explain Demonstrate Guide Enable Tell them, show them, help them, turn them loose.

I used to tutor young adults and adults, it's really interesting how a lot of people are trained to not ask for help most of their life. When I started, only 1 person showed up because the rest thought asking for a tutor meant they were "stupid". It took 6 months before we got half the students eventually going for help. If people are constantly conditioned that they should "just know", we shouldn't be surprised that people are coming out of training programs less prepared.

Oh this is awesome! Hammering home the method and the reasoning in an empowering way. They must love learning there!

I'm a bricklayer and I feel this. I work with a bunch of marines and a bunch of the old school guys and I have similar stories except maybe more crazy than just talks of beating ass. One guy got so mad at me because I wanted to grout a wall close to the tub and work to the lengthier side because it would flow through the wall and he said the opposite - he got a hammer and threw it at me and then threw his hard hat off the scaffold that was about 25 feet up and got down and into my face and said he was going to tear me up. I once made a simple mistake with some slightly tricky cuts and a guy who was normally very calm and goofy got off the scaffold and berated me until his face turned red and got the super over to break it up and understand... luckily he was on my side and came and helped me mark a few cuts since it was obvious the guy just standing on the scaffold wanted it done now but yeah, being an apprentice sucks in a world full of old and bitter people. Luckily for me and my trade you can learn a whole hell of a lot in about 3 years (4 years till journeyman) and the likelihood of you blowing your hand off or catching fire is slim to none. I got out of the union and am currently working residential to learn some experience on things not done on the commercial jobs so I always have something to fall back to. I can now pretty much bid and do work for every house I see regarding brick and block if I wanted and it's nice knowing that with a little bit of my own time and patience, I can do things and not have to worry about being broke. I suggest you learn enough to be able to work on the side if you were to need to and if you can't see yourself doing this for forever, find another job/career you want to go into. I haven't swapped yet but I am SERIOUSLY planning on it for my own mental and physical health. No one can take away the skills you gained and going back may suck if you do find something else but at least the option is there and you'll find that you will make a lot of friends and meet good people because of your sacrifice to learn and grow in a trade.

It’s like that for my company too and I work in manufacturing. For context I’m 21M. I’ve worked in manufacturing for the last year and most older workers blame new hires for everything. My company has a bad reputation with not keeping younger adults due to the job being bad and having crappy work hours. Older people/high ups view us younger people as “bodies” and they often time do a shitty job training them. Younger people where I work don’t receive much training and managers just assume they’re ready for anything. When I first started, my trainer decided to take a shit ton of vacation which meant that I had to run our entire department with only a month of experience…. The job takes 5 years to learn….It’s a terrible way to run a business. Thankfully I’m heading out the door as well and joining my fellow young people.

any maintenance or facility job will be like that. an entire building to learn and the only person who knows anything retired last year…

Computer programming jobs are like this too. Very few people hire enough programmers to have continuity of knowledge transfer.

Or give them time to document anything

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My husband left the highway job because of this bully macho culture. Sadly, those old guys that are dying out, are being replaced by younger dicks.

If your main problem solving tool is violence then eventually you find a place where violence is accepted as part of the culture. This really used to be everywhere. I read some old comics from the 40s where the hero went undercover at a logging camp and the boss just ran around sucker punching everyone. Keep in mind, the target audience for these comics was young children. The other characters were like, "Oh oh, watch out, the boss is in a bad mood!" The message was pretty clear, if you're a boss you can hit whoever you want whenever you want. That was the message to kids in the 40s and 50s.

This was actually my experience in my field as well (I work a white collar job). I was bullied and treated terribly by my coworkers at my first job. I didn't complain because I really needed the job. Plus I had gone to school for it and wanted it to work out. I was given the biggest file and told to 'figure it out', any time I made a mistake or asked a questions (even on my first week) my coworkers would run to my manager and complain. I was constantly excluded and no one ever had time to show me anything, yet got upset when I didn't do a good job or didn't know something. I stayed for 3 years before moving on to another job. It was better, at first. But then it started to get bad because the manager was also a bully. Then I left that job after 6 years. See, 6 years, I tried to make it work before anyone comes for me. I am now in a place where I feel respected and treated well. I also make an effort to not treat people the way I was treated when I first started. If that means explaining things over and over again, I will happily do it. I don't believe bullying and threatening people makes for good training. Good training takes patience and support. Everyone I have trained has gone on to do well. Makes me wonder if my approach works. Whereas I struggled in my career, mainly because up until recently no one had the patience to really sit down and show me things. So I was doing a lot of self-teaching. Which is fine in some ways but not good in others. I'm sorry you went through that OP. You aren't alone.

The cycle of abuse exists in more places than the home

/thread

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It's the same in every industry and not just "trade". No one gets proper training/on-boarding anymore. My company can't even document SOPs correctly at the director level. It is very rare these days where you can find a good mentor at work and if you come across one, hang on to him/her and learn as much as you can while you are with the company!

A buddy of mine is in your exact position and can confirm everything you're saying. He's Chinese-American, but he speaks English perfectly without any accent and is more or less as American as the next guy. He not only encounters the same shit you're saying, but he also gets the bonus borderline racist comments here and there from his bosses and coworkers. Would it surprise you that they're still talking shit about the balloon to him? The worst part is that they would sometimes talk down to him in front of clients.

Old people who don't appreciate young eager people are dumb. Learn all you can as fast as you can. And when you teach him a new, better way to do something don't be obnoxious about it. He'll know instantly his days in the profession are numbered. Lastly, 2 years of experience is enough to be of value to other companies. Look around. People who spend an entire career at one place are rare.

No they won't because they have to dish out the abuse they endured when they first broke into the workforce. They won't because they are workaholics (with a shitty home life, likely) and will cling to their job until they keel over. There are some sad old men out there who drag the young folk down so they can cling to their ego of being "the best" even though they have been on the decline for 10 years. They cannot fathom the thought of eventually becoming irrelevant, it terrifies them. 26F welder fabricator who works with a majority of men 50+ and I see this too often.

>No they won't because they have to dish out the abuse they endured when they first broke into the workforce. Yup, it's so damn toxic. Miserable people, propagating misery.

As a total outsider to this, not being in trades at all, I sincerely hope you stick with it, because I CANNOT WAIT to be able to hire someone besides the crochety old men available now. I've had to reach out for help from tradesmen so often in the last 10 years are so.. they are all old and they have no respect for the customers either. We're paying a fortune for them to treat us like we're morons, and sometimes they "just forget" to come at all. PLEASE give us a new generation of people to hire for this stuff. I'm glad to pay the fees, but it would sure be a relief to not be talked down to when I do! (I promise I'm not complaining about the price or anything to these guys... they just come in acting like I should have known what the problem was with the AC or the Plumbing...)

Oh god is this true. Trying to hire someone to do something on your house is a fucking nightmare. I want my shower redone and everyone we try to get is some old crotchety asshole who has no customer service skills. Look, I don't expect much, but call me back, give me a quote and show up when you say you will show up. Two people just didn't call back. Third guy, recommended by a neighbor, just showed up 2 months later at my front door ready to work. I left a message, never heard back and then he just shows up. Like wtf? I had no quote, he didn't look at it and it wasn't a good time. He's busy he told me. Well maybe because his time management skills fucking suck.

Thats the problem we've run into as well. Like we set up an appointment and they don't show up, don't call to say they are running late. Then a few days later they call and say "Oh I'll be there in X hours". Like no...we've already found someone else in that time. And it's not one place too, it's happening with contractors across different fields.

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As a woman I run into this allllll the time and its the biggest pain in the butt. I work construction adjacent (hazardous materials) so I typically know enough to have a conversation about what I am trying to accomplish with my house. My husband is a bartender and the amount of people who will ignore me and default to him is enraging. I cheerfully paid 1k more for our roof as the lowest bid was incredibly rude, ignored me in favor of my husband, told me how all our intended plans was wrong, stood in my driveway talking for two hours, and then said if he ever met our state governor at the time he would shoot her. And when I left a poor review for his company he called me up and screamed at me.

Try this - next time someone is a dick to you at work that doesn’t sign your paycheck say this; Don’t talk to me anymore - if they try and reply repeat it. Used this before. Totally tripped the person out. Solved the problem once they know you are open to ignoring them. Then just walk off if they keep trying to speak and any time they speak to you three words in look at the wall or behind them. Make it obvious you are distracted. The next time your boss tries to bully you simply ask: why are you bullying me?? They fucking hate that. Did that to the owner of a restaurant and totally threw her off her game. When she tried to deny it I told her I know bullying and that is bullying. Again freaks them out. People don’t like to be called on their shit. Also I used to work at a tech college and at that time an electronic degree was in high demand. Leave the automotive industry. My friend owns a garage and he says it is so hard to get good mechanics and he treats his staff well. 90% of them are trash and are 30 years into sucking at what they do. Chances are these dipshits don’t know enough to train you. I built a hot rod and the electronics are the one thing we hired someone to do. We did the rest ourselves. It’s the only hard part of the job. Don’t let these idiots intimidate you. They literally are just turning bolts.

“30 years of experience, or 1 year of experience 30 times?”

“This time, I’m gonna get it right.”

Construction and mechanic is often where people who can't get along with others end up working for themselves.

Small business in general, to be honest. Small business owners are terrible at following directions. Me “Please Send me 12 bank statements.” Owner “Here’s 11, and one is from three years ago.” Me “You gave me 11 statements.” Owner “No, I gave you 12.” Me “There is 11. Here, I will show you.” Owner “This is too onerous.”

if anyone is curious what public accounting is all about: this is the entire job in your comment. acct: please sir, the last bank statement, i need it before the deadline! client: idk, lot of personal information on that one. acct: dude, i'm doing your tax return, i have more personal information about you than you do!

Solid observation.

The same can be often true of people that work in IT. I work in IT and I have varying degrees of being a people person.

> 90% of them are trash and are 30 years into sucking at what they do Be wary of anyone who wants to lead with how long they have been doing whatever it is they do. It's usually code for, "I don't want to learn".

yeah my friend would rather train a mechanic from scratch the right way than get someone with tons of experience for that exact reason.

My fiancé is a very young marine technician currently working at a shop that definitely underpays him. He knows he could get payed way more at some other shops in the area but he won’t leave because he likes the small shop he’s at and the boss he has. Apparently good boat mechanics are few and far between. They’ve had a lot of weirdos come and go over the years. One thing that always struck me as really odd is that he’s always had to buy his own tools. One day I asked why the shop didn’t give them tools or at least some sort of allowance and he laughed at me. Apparently mechanics are known for stealing tools when they leave? Also when we started looking into moving he was nervous about looking for a job in a new city and when I asked why he told me that “whenever someone comes in from a different city we always assume they’re running from something.” It’s a very strange environment to me. I know he’s trying to transition out of the field within the next few years just because of the physical toll it takes on your body.

The problem with being a boat mechanic is that the work is seasonal. 4 to 6 months out of the year there is too much work that needs done all at once, but you gotta employ the guys full time all year if you want to keep them. You're also working for boat dealership owners who usually inherit the business or get lucky vs. know how to run a business well. Mechanics have been expected to own their own tools for decades, that is not strange or new. At one boat manufacturer I worked for, you were expected to bring your tools to the interview for positions that had more craftsmanship like the cabinet shop.

I work in a more white collar field, but it burns my ass when the older, experienced people don’t tolerate new people who need training. I’ve been in my field 36 years and I LOVE to help new people get started. I have a co-worker who has 15 years experience and it burns him up to have to train new people. He wants everyone to show up knowing everything he does. I’ve had at least a dozen interns and technicians work for me, and some of them have gone on to do great things - even surpassed me in the field. And I LOVE that. I’ve also had a few who didn’t want to get out doing the field work and get busy, a couple who just didn’t belong in this field (good people, just in the wrong place). But geez - you gotta give ‘em a chance.

"I used to work with a guy who would carry 200 pounds of bricks up a wooden ladder with a broken leg 60 hours a week and you need help with that 150 pound spool of cable? I tell ya, they don't make them like they used to. What happened to all the MEN?" They conveniently ignore the stories I have of a guy who quickly removed all of his fingers on one hand with a chop saw when he was in a hurry, or the guy confined to a wheelchair after he fell off of a 12' ladder carrying an awkward load because they "had to get the job done".

I've read through most of the comments here so far and I want to offer you my perspective as I haven't seen it yet. I spent seven years in the USAF. That is a tale all its own, but more specifically I spent those years in aircraft maintenance, which is very much trade work and if you ask most maintainers (or any airmen) they'll tell it's the one of the most important jobs in the AF and also one of the worst environments most days. I joined at a time when things were changing rapidly in both the AF itself and in maintenance. There were a lot of old farts who were mean for no reason, quick to berate, and weren't interested in teaching anyone how to do the job as well as they could. Then there was this middle group who were younger but had been there a while. They were mixed. Some of them were both excellent people and excellent trainers. Some were only good at one or the other and some of them were awful on both accounts. I think big parts of that came from the abuse they suffered from the people above them before I got there and whether they decided to carry on that culture or do it differently. By the time I left, many of the old farts were gone and were being replaced slowly by people in my age group, and I could readily see a culture shift in progress. I'm not saying it was all good, of course. The USAF still has it's major issues. Especially maintenance. But it is changing. Work outside of the military is likely enduring a similar change, but it takes longer because people don't retire as often. They carry on those miserable habits for decades longer. They will be gone, eventually, but in the mean time, I'd like to offer you some advice for dealing with them. One very important lesson I learned in my service is how power dynamics work in trades. If someone has years of experience over you and acts aggressively, if you respond aggressively you will still be 'wrong' even if you had the right position in the argument. I saw this first hand when a crusty, rude sergeant instigated a fight with a younger airmen and the airmen was punished for being rude and aggressive back. What I found is the best course of action is to maintain a self discipline that keeps you on top of the power dynamic. When said crusty sergeant attempted to instigate me later, I let him rant for a few minutes while I stayed quiet and calm. He finished his tirade with "you need to trust me as your leader" to which I responded "I'll never trust you as a leader because you've never demonstrated to me one time that you're capable of leading anything." He was wrong in the situation to begin with, possibly endangering the life of a coworker and friend, so even if he felt compelled to run to someone higher and cry that I was being disrespectful, my first defence would be to explain that what he was doing was dangerous and stupid and I won't be a part of it and I won't stand by and allow it, even if that causes trouble for my career. I think he knew that, because he didn't go to anyone and he never said another word or gave me another order again. I tell this story because I think there is a way to handle these old bastards with a little grace and dignity on our part. I see people telling you to bully him back, and I see people telling you to find another job. You can do those things if you really feel that's your best option, but I'd just like to offer another alternative. Find a way to take control of that power dynamic. If he's being rude (especially if he's threatening physical violence) remain very calm, and explain in your calmest voice what his options are. Let him know that if he threatens you with physical violence again, that you will have no choice but to inform someone above you of that (I am assuming there is someone above you here and I hope there is for your sake). If you're working for any respectable enterprise, I would be surprised if they didn't have a policy somewhere against personal violence in the workplace, which should include threats. Another thing I recommend is to call him out when he is speaking to you inappropriately, but you have to go about it very carefully. You have to be able to explain to him in terms he'll understand why what he's doing is inappropriate and isn't helping the work get done faster. The most important thing is to always practice that self discipline. Stay calm but very, very firm. You're a human being and you deserve the same respect as anybody else. Especially so if you're just doing you're best. Make that known and don't settle for less. I can't promise that any of this is going help, but I desperately hope it does. I think I'll be a 'trade worker' most of my life, and I believe that it can become a professional and rewarding environment if we strive to make it one. Good luck, and God speed.

Honestly pretty legit advice, a lot of the crusty old dudes will lighten up when they realize you'll push back a little. The degree of push back depends on the person and how many years in prison they've done. It really is kinda like a prison dynamic, they're gonna test you to see what you're like. You can sit and take it and they'll not respect you at all or you can stand up for yourself and they might just like you... or they'll lie on you to the boss man to get you fired asap, kinda a cointoss.

TLDR: the reason there are a lack of qualified tradespeople is no one will train them; instead they treat apprentices like 8 hour a day indentured servants that they threaten and abuse like its 1750, driving them to quit in despair.

This is why I quit mechanicing. 3 different shops, and all the same bullshit. Worse? I went to college for it, so I wasted 4 years of my life at it instead of just two.

My husband is an old guy electrician that trains his apprentices. He has been told 100s of times that they don't have time to train apprentices. He does it anyway. This is one of his biggest complaints

It’s true - there’s a problem with trades. These guys were trained by old abusive assholes too that REALLY knew how to work hard. Each generation thinks the next is full of pussies. Just hold your ground, communicate what you just posted, don’t treat the next generation as poorly. Break the cycle.

I’ve learned that there isn’t really a shortage, just a lack of companies that pay well. I tried to get into a heavy operators union, 450 people applied and they were only hiring 15 for the whole year. Didn’t make the cut so I looked at doing the same work just non-union and they all payed like $1/2 over minimum wage, which near me will not get you anything in terms of an apartment/ decent living standards

As a woman who has worked trades most of her 40+ year life, I can agree. Construction doesn’t have the best environment, to put it nicely. After hearing women comments for three decades I finally have enough know how and customer base to have my own business. We are crazy busy and it’s rewarding to be showing up on sites where the same meanie butts are there, when I’m doing well and growing while they are stuck in the same repetitive angry path. It’s freeing. I hope you can experience this someday. Trades are awesome to work in, it’s just the dude club mentality that makes it bullshit.

Don’t forget that most Boomers are literally brain damaged from years of Lead gas fume exposure. On top of being raised as narcissists. The lead damaged three key parts of their brain; intelligence, empathy and consideration for others. As such they are the most ignorant, self centred and unthinking ‘humans’ to have ever walked this planet. To top it off, they’re brain damaged idiots lost in a world they no longer understand. Where they are no longer richly rewarded for their work - like they became conditioned to all through the Golden Age that was the Boomer generation. So now they’re all afraid, grumpy and miserable. Stay away from Boomers. Especially if they’re going to be shitty like your former employers. Let them circle the drain and flush like the lingering turds they are.

Ha! I just said this above. Lead exposure is linked to aggression so this would explain so much.

Yeah, i just always saw it as what happens when a group of people have enjoyed a solid middle class privilege in society. They get mean and nasty when they wake up one day and realize they have less of it.

I am a boomer from the end of the boomer generation. These people were sold the myth that they could be anything they wanted to be and be well off, if they just worked hard enough for it. Now 30-40 years later, they have no retirement. Cost of living has gone up. Medical bills are too high. Can't afford to out their kids through college. And 1 TV station telling them that it is all the fault of "others". So now they are angry and don't see that it is the fault of the very people they vote for because they were too busy just trying to survive to pay attention to the world around them.

Because the old men were taught by their teachers using fear and intimidation as their only teaching tool (which produced the product you are dealing with now), they know no other way to teach. These are not formal educators who went to school to learn about best teaching practices. You are dealing with people who have a very specific set of skills that are in such demand that those skills have carried them through life. This does not help you find a better place....or teach you how to deal with these people, but explains the WHY of what is happening (and I am sorry). Opinion- There are a few who can teach kindly (not many). Doing what you are doing by asking around is probably the best way to find better teachers. Otherwise.... you are gonna have to love what you are doing in order to get through the apprentice years. The shit doctors go through is grueling also. Sometimes it is only love of vocation that will keep us moving through the bullshit. If that love isn't there, then forget them (and that profession). Look for a profession closely related that you can get a formal education from more trained educators. Wind Turbine technician comes to mind. It is a tech certification track. The pay is awesome and has great job security. https://www.onetonline.org/ is a wonderful reference for finding related fields and any/most information (including where there are currently job openings) for any field. Sorry if anything was misspelled or worded oddly. I needed to quickly get this information out. Good luck!

You're two years into an electrical apprenticeship but work with mechanics? I'm totally confused. Both trades can have their fair share of bullies. Don't be like me. I've lived a life of different traumas, so people-pleasing and avoiding conflict is my unfortunate affliction. My advice: you have three options. 1. Stand up to your bully, and do this by bullying back. "I might be worth a damn if I wasn't being taught by a fucking neanderthal." 2. Go above their head. Go to their boss and tell them that you're being bullied and it needs to be handled. 3. Leave for a different company. Chances are that you won't get bullied there too, but you do run that risk. Bonus option: just straight up tell your boss that what they're doing is bullshit and what you need from them is help learning the trade so you can take over their job when they leave.

In some areas instead of calling the guys who have completed their apprenticeships "journeymen" they call them "mechanics"

This is solid advice. I worked in construction for 15 years. The bully back thing works really well. It is respected somehow.

I wouldn't call it bullying back. I call it standing up for yourself. People respect you more when they know you won't put up with bullshit. This goes for men and women. I, as a woman, learned this through many years of being passive and shy and allowing people to treat me however they wanted. Over time, I've learned how to PROPERLY handle myself (which started off by snapping back at first which never gave me the results I wanted). Now, I'm just straightforward and blunt. Not cruel. I don't raise my voice. I tell them how they are speaking to me is inappropriate and if we're going to have a good working relationship, then they're going to need to approach me in a better way. I don't want to work in a toxic environment and neither do they. I'm not asking to be friends, I'm asking for a professional relationship and respect. If that isn't something they can agree with me on, then let me know so that I can address this to our superiors. People just need to learn how the fuck to get along. We're all in this boat together.

Man and to think I wanted to be an electrician holy cow no way. I bet it's like that in the plumbing industry too.

Over the last 20 years in the electrical industry, I've run into my fait share of assholes, both inside, and outside the trade. For every story you hear about apprentices being treated badly by tradies, you hear the same amount of office workers being treated like shit. Honestly, people in general just suck. Do what you like doing, and don't be afraid to walk away from a job if it's toxic (if you can afford it of course).

“Yeah man we can stage that shit and everything, hit me, I’ll get workers comp, AND be out of your hair! Win win right?” All while making eye contact and getting louder and laughing crazier as the sentence goes on. They hate nothing more than passive aggressiveness that confronts them in my experience. Acting a little crazy makes them scared too, I’m a big girl 6 foot, 200 pounds so that might help but confidence is key.

I am a woman who worked for a plumbing company in the office. My boss said some of the most vile things to the staff. I got fired for calling him out on it because his reputation was the reason no one would apply to the company. What sucks is the money could be super good but with that kind of mental abuse and physical toll the work takes out on you isn’t worth it.

Something you need to realize. Crappy bosses and or companies are always hiring. Good bosses and companies rarely have to hire. So most of the jobs out there you see being advertised are crappy jobs. Even if most of the jobs in existence are not crappy jobs.

People wonder why I don’t hire anyone to do work at my house or on my car unless it’s absolutely necessary. Because I was broke as a kid and had to learn to do as much as I could as help wasn’t coming. Then as a young adult I was on my own and when I did try to hire someone to work on my car they attempted to take advantage of me and lie to me about the amount or work that needed to be done. I’ve had mechanics pull a brand new air filter (installed by me 10 minutes before the oil change) out of the casing and tell me it needs to be replaced. The mechanic that took my car for 5 days to “run tests” and couldn’t diagnose the problem. I suggested he check the crankcase vent valve. No, that couldn’t be it. Guess what it was? Exactly what I suggested. An HVAC guy tried to convince me that the AC unit that wasn’t blowing cold air had enough coolant and the air was cold enough. What more did I want from him? How about you add the correct amount of refrigerant and we can watch the coils defrost together in real time. The electrician that told me I didn’t have the skill or ability to replace a basic dimmer switch. This after seeing how I expertly labeled the fuse box because only four fuses had been labeled and seeing that I installed a ceiling fan and light on two switches in the kitchen. Then I patched the ceiling from the giant mess the “professionals made under the fluorescent fixture (that wasn’t grounded) and did tap down texture upside down on a kitchen island. Neighbor saw me building a new Weber grill on my deck. Told me I needed a professional for that job. I could go on and on and on. A buddy in the carpenter’s union asked why I didn’t stay in the military or go into the trades since it’s obvious I enjoy trade work and do beautiful work. Had to explain to him that being physically, mentally, verbally, and sexually abused by my colleagues wasn’t on my agenda for a happy and fulfilling life.

Similar experience in the trades, actually. Not every place I worked, but at enough places that it’s not worth bouncing around contracts

We have a non hostile work environment here. It works. It's more preventative than anything. Some old people just aren't aware that they're assholes

Tell ‘em I’m trying to learn and you’re supposed to be training me not beating me into submission.

There's no shortage. If there was a shortage, it wouldn't take 6 months to get in an apprenticeship.

Yup that's the trades alright. I'm a lisenced electrician that left the trade for an office job. The shitty attitude every day was a big contributing factor.

This isnt just in trade school or skilled manual labor, this is across the board in every profession. In IT, they want 5-10y experience on a product that was released 3y ago, and want to pay entry level wages. Then when their product of choice doesnt do what THEY wanted it to do (regardless of what it was designed to do) they get all nasty and disparaging,. The boomer generation are all a bunch of bullies

Your not wrong, a lot of trades treat their green horns like shit because “that’s how I was treated” It’s okay to not be sunshine and rainbows all the time but a lot of those assholes expect way too much out of people who know so little. Often times they are terrible trainers because it has been so long they can’t even remember what it’s like to now know. I climbed my way up in the last ten years but have met a large amount of mid level or seniors who don’t take the time to teach or do so poorly at it there’s no way somebody could figure it out without somebody else jumping in. Unfortunately to survive in construction you have to be an asshole because other people are assholes. I feel it has gotten better and honestly projects that have gone well were generally the ones without the assholes. Companies will adapt or die, if people continue to not pursue these jobs and those that do get run out of town by the grey beards eventually something will give. The irony is the lack of effort to work with young guns and teach newer techs is the exact reason why the have to work 60 hour weeks destroying their body until they are able to retire

I had a manager like this in retail. After college I went from part time sales associate to manager in training, and my store manager was upset that she got *me* instead of a longtime sales associate who was also starting the management training program. This bitch did. not. train. me. I was a glorified associate for 3 months until our district manager finally realized what was going on and brought in a co-store manager from a different store to train me. Three weeks later and I was running the store with no problem because *I was actually being trained.* That original manager was fired not long after and I was promoted to running a high volume store another 4 months later. Youngest manager in the district’s history to run such a high volume store no thanks to her!

Completely agree! People have been treating the trades like we did with college a decade or two ago, like it's the golden key to instant success. "You don't need a 4 year degree to get 100k!" Ok but most people who are in the trades are NOT making 100k. Sorry, that is just the fact. That guy's one cousin's brother's best friend who makes 150K as an HVAC worker is an outlier, someone that you need to take into account that is not the norm Blue collar work can be very brutal, rough work. I have seen people's bodies absolutely destroyed after doing it for 20+ years. They are miserable and broken people. The culture is ABOLUTELY toxic, ESPECIALLY if you are a woman/minority. I was a welder for 7 years before I gave up. I am a woman, and I started from 18 years old and switched careers when I was 25. After 4 years of welding, I was promoted to lead welder. I am an exceptional learner, and my welds were really good. Yet people kept making jokes that I must have slept around to get the job (despite the fact that I was and still am in a long term relationship), that I get things handed to me, that I am nothing but a diversity hire, said it's only because of affirmative action. The way they treated our only black welder that we had for a little while was terrible. They would specifically lock all of their tool boxes when they went to lunch and he was still in the shop. They NEVER did that before, and they started keeping their boxes unlocked after he left. These were company tools that were given to us, not personal tools. So it isn't like they were protecting their personal belongings. I switched into the IT field, and I am SO MUCH happier. The culture is toxic still, but after having 50 year old meth heads scream at my face and threaten to beat me up, this stuff is child's play in comparison. I love the looks of horror my new co workers give me when I tell them tales from my welding days. Switching from the trades to IT was hard for me at first. I was a very crass, loud, obnoxious person (like telling dudes to suck my dick, can't do that anymore!). I had to be re-trained to be a more professional person. But i am so glad I switched careers. I feel genuinely bad for all the new kids who are being suckered to go into the trades the same way the kids were suckered into college. Hopefully once the old folks die off, the new kids will change the environment. But I don't have much hope, most of the people my age or younger were just as obnoxious and terrible.