The Kani Basami can be done (relatively) safely by modifying the technique, most importantly by bracing the far arm on the ground to carry the attacking players weight. However, the risk of catastrophic injury is *so* high that I can’t imagine most gyms being comfortable with a ‘safe kani basamis only’ rule. I certainly wouldn’t train somewhere people were going to do it.
Just way too much downside.
The average bjj school is not teaching this as a takedown. If they teach this, it’s more commonly off a butterfly entry and the opponent is light off their feet/legs.
I can see a competitive school teaching it for awareness and having it as an option in a match where it’s allowed.
>3) BJJ players, is the average coach teaching these take downs?
No. It's banned in some BJJ rule sets and I've never been to a club that allows them. The throw should be universally banned across all grappling sports, but especially BJJ. Sambo I can understand being the exception.
I am not up to date on Sambo rules, but it's because I've had the impression that it's been a regular part of Sambo for longer than Judo.
If there are going to be masters of Kani Basami in this World they're going to be found in Sambo. However, according to u/halfcut below it no longer done in Sambo which again, is the right thing.
This is why I get so incensed when I hear about Kani Basami being done in BJJ. The group of grapplers who are the worst on their feet as a collective whole are the last ones that should use it. [Check out this video and the thumbnail](https://youtu.be/4gzaIz6ppHI). As soon as I saw the full cast I knew it was a Kani Basami injury. Who did it? I won't spoil it, but you probably wouldn't guess wrong.
Sambo banned it a few years back when they did a rules revision. FIAS is just as concerned about injuries as IJF. I hear people talk all the time about how Sambo allows X and it's almost always wrong
That's what I was looking for! Sambo is pretty niche in my area (somehow I have run into more people who identify as catch wrestlers), so I didn't really have anybody to ask in person. If you listen to the internet, the impression that I stated in my OP is pretty much universal.
You're not wrong there and I can see why the confusion comes in. The amount of wrong information being spouted online about Sambo, especially in regard to Combat Sambo is wild. Especially considering we have a single NGB and the rules are freely available online. They're pinned to the top of r/sambo
Sambo has more of a reputation for being aggressive and closer to fighting rather than an emphasis on player safety.
The official Sambo Federation posted on Instagram "if you're in full control you're not moving fast enough" which in contrast to Judo banning Reverse Seoi Nage for an unspecified number of injuries makes Sambo seem a lot more aggressive.
It’s one of those techniques that needs to be performed well to be safe.
If you mess up uchi-mata or standing seoi, nothing much happens. If you mess up kani-basami, uke can have a life changing injury.
BJJ guy here. It's banned in almost all the rulesets that I know of, except ADCC. Never heard of a BJJ gym that allows it, and I'd be alarmed if I visited one. The stereotype about BJJ having poor throwing... it may be on the mend, but it's still by-and-large true.
If you don't want to get kani basamied by a skilled opponent, you REALLY don't want to get kani basamied by an UNskilled opponent.
I remember when Grappling Industries used to brag about they allowed it and then reversed course after a few years because of all the injuries. There are whole highlight reels of GI Kani Basami injuries
I did sambo for a few months and stopped because someone did kani basami during technical practice and it broke my toe.
The response about the safe way to do it is legit and I've been taught to enter it in no-gi that way but rarely try it. Its a high level technique imo
People loved doing it like they loved doing flying armbars. In grappling styles there aren’t as many flashy techniques and as young men we liked to do stuff where we could show off because we were young and dumb.
For judo, it's just the ban, in my experience. We never had an injury in our dojo. My sensei referenced injuries he had seen, which he attributed more to people trying it without instruction or mixing up their legs on the attack. We learned it in a very controlled environment, much more so than most other instruction.
No epidemic of injuries, Kani Basami dangers come from people doing it wrong and people defending wrong.
Older Judo was way more systematic and more disciplined in the sense that people practiced the "boring" stuff like breakfalls more dilligently.
Still not really a good technique to ever be used in competition when people defend "wrong" all the time.
Kani is banned at my judo club and my BJJ club. I was taught it in the 1990's when I did Judo as a kiddo. Our BJJ club has taught it before on days when we have done take downs for awareness of how it works how it breaks you and things one can do if you are caught. I would not train at a place where it is allowed for randori.
It claimed that it was intentionally used to create damage in Japan. ahead big universtity team matches to take out some key player. Dunno if this is real
Big thing was the Endo breaking calf bone of Yamshita [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usluALZacWM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usluALZacWM)
I had this done on me when I was a wee young green belt sophomore at military school (about 1992). In randori. Never even knew it existed. Neat throw, cleanly done.
Since then, I’ve worked it a handful of times, but it’s not one of my favorites.
I think it's banned in most grappling rules with the exception of catch wrestling I believe. I agree with the ban, however I think an issue is that because it's banned, no one knows how to do it correctly and when that one person does do it, they don't know how to and so they injure the person.
If you are concerned about kani basami injuries, the Koga roll is a much safer alternative. Its basically the same move. I'm not sure how useful it would be for Judo, but for BJJ and Sambo its an excellent way to attack the legs. Plus it looks cool.
3. Only done BJJ for 6 months and considering to swap to Judo, but the only times I think our coach mentioned flying scissor was when he listed the moves we WEREN’T allowed to pull when sparring.
The Kani Basami drill is that inside arm braces on the ground and low leg sweeps the feet. But you have to frikin drill it.
If you do the entry properly you'll execute the technique that will open things up to an ankle lock or foot lock.
BJJ players (I do it too) typically DONT drill and dive in putting all the pressure in the knee. Causing the breaks you see.
The old injury with Kani Basami was actually concussions from hitting the mat. Not the knee breaks we see today by untrained tough guys try to be cool.
Sambo fighters drill the technique and roll into leg locks.
It was definitely the knee and ankle injuries that caused the ban, not concussions. Concussions only became a concern in sports in the 2000's. Kani Basami was banned in Judo in the 80's, specifically because it kept destroying the knees of elite athletes. Remembering that we didn't have the surgical technology we have now at that time, that meant that entire sporting careers were ended, and people were litterally crippled because of this technique.
There are ways to do it "safely" but the issue is skill and positioning, which are incredibly difficult to gain on a resisting and skilled opponent. It not a technique you can just "throw and hope it sticks" without significantly endangering your opponent. It works perfectly without causing injury in a very, very specific context, and that's it. Ever other context, its a roll of the dice whether it pops a ligament or breaks a bone.
Remember, it's someone's entire bodyweight coming down on the side of the knee. The knee isn't designed for that.
I think it's a great throw that can be done safely. It just takes more practice than most techniques. That's the problem. How can you practice to the point of proficiency without hurting quite a few?
The Kani Basami can be done (relatively) safely by modifying the technique, most importantly by bracing the far arm on the ground to carry the attacking players weight. However, the risk of catastrophic injury is *so* high that I can’t imagine most gyms being comfortable with a ‘safe kani basamis only’ rule. I certainly wouldn’t train somewhere people were going to do it. Just way too much downside.
Even safer if you use your free arm to scoop their near leg before you fall back. Seen Jason Nolf do this in wrestling.
Sorry, were you answering one of the specific questions I had about the technique in these 3 different sports?
BJJ
Thanks for clarifying! Have you seen it being taught at a BJJ school?
The average bjj school is not teaching this as a takedown. If they teach this, it’s more commonly off a butterfly entry and the opponent is light off their feet/legs. I can see a competitive school teaching it for awareness and having it as an option in a match where it’s allowed.
Might help to ask in a sambo Reddit
>3) BJJ players, is the average coach teaching these take downs? No. It's banned in some BJJ rule sets and I've never been to a club that allows them. The throw should be universally banned across all grappling sports, but especially BJJ. Sambo I can understand being the exception.
Why do you feel like Sambo is the exception? Early introduction of the technique and understanding of how to take the fall?
I am not up to date on Sambo rules, but it's because I've had the impression that it's been a regular part of Sambo for longer than Judo. If there are going to be masters of Kani Basami in this World they're going to be found in Sambo. However, according to u/halfcut below it no longer done in Sambo which again, is the right thing. This is why I get so incensed when I hear about Kani Basami being done in BJJ. The group of grapplers who are the worst on their feet as a collective whole are the last ones that should use it. [Check out this video and the thumbnail](https://youtu.be/4gzaIz6ppHI). As soon as I saw the full cast I knew it was a Kani Basami injury. Who did it? I won't spoil it, but you probably wouldn't guess wrong.
Sambo banned it a few years back when they did a rules revision. FIAS is just as concerned about injuries as IJF. I hear people talk all the time about how Sambo allows X and it's almost always wrong
That's what I was looking for! Sambo is pretty niche in my area (somehow I have run into more people who identify as catch wrestlers), so I didn't really have anybody to ask in person. If you listen to the internet, the impression that I stated in my OP is pretty much universal.
You're not wrong there and I can see why the confusion comes in. The amount of wrong information being spouted online about Sambo, especially in regard to Combat Sambo is wild. Especially considering we have a single NGB and the rules are freely available online. They're pinned to the top of r/sambo
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Sambo has more of a reputation for being aggressive and closer to fighting rather than an emphasis on player safety. The official Sambo Federation posted on Instagram "if you're in full control you're not moving fast enough" which in contrast to Judo banning Reverse Seoi Nage for an unspecified number of injuries makes Sambo seem a lot more aggressive.
It’s one of those techniques that needs to be performed well to be safe. If you mess up uchi-mata or standing seoi, nothing much happens. If you mess up kani-basami, uke can have a life changing injury.
Uchi mata is dangerous as its close to ukes ballsack and cock
Very true
🤣i dont think my truthfulness bc im at 5 dislikes
It's because you phrased it in a vulgar way
🤦🏾♂️honesty is the best policy , but i shouldve known bc its reddit
BJJ guy here. It's banned in almost all the rulesets that I know of, except ADCC. Never heard of a BJJ gym that allows it, and I'd be alarmed if I visited one. The stereotype about BJJ having poor throwing... it may be on the mend, but it's still by-and-large true. If you don't want to get kani basamied by a skilled opponent, you REALLY don't want to get kani basamied by an UNskilled opponent.
I remember when Grappling Industries used to brag about they allowed it and then reversed course after a few years because of all the injuries. There are whole highlight reels of GI Kani Basami injuries
We don’t do Kanibasami in Sambo anymore either due to injuries
I did sambo for a few months and stopped because someone did kani basami during technical practice and it broke my toe. The response about the safe way to do it is legit and I've been taught to enter it in no-gi that way but rarely try it. Its a high level technique imo
People loved doing it like they loved doing flying armbars. In grappling styles there aren’t as many flashy techniques and as young men we liked to do stuff where we could show off because we were young and dumb.
For judo, it's just the ban, in my experience. We never had an injury in our dojo. My sensei referenced injuries he had seen, which he attributed more to people trying it without instruction or mixing up their legs on the attack. We learned it in a very controlled environment, much more so than most other instruction.
I see a lot of techniques bjj players try from IG so I think that’s why it happens in their clubs more than some would expect.
For #3. No, in fact if you throw up a Kani Basami in my BJJ academy you’ll be escorted off the mat.
No epidemic of injuries, Kani Basami dangers come from people doing it wrong and people defending wrong. Older Judo was way more systematic and more disciplined in the sense that people practiced the "boring" stuff like breakfalls more dilligently. Still not really a good technique to ever be used in competition when people defend "wrong" all the time.
Kani is banned at my judo club and my BJJ club. I was taught it in the 1990's when I did Judo as a kiddo. Our BJJ club has taught it before on days when we have done take downs for awareness of how it works how it breaks you and things one can do if you are caught. I would not train at a place where it is allowed for randori.
It claimed that it was intentionally used to create damage in Japan. ahead big universtity team matches to take out some key player. Dunno if this is real Big thing was the Endo breaking calf bone of Yamshita [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usluALZacWM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usluALZacWM)
We do it in JJJ
I had this done on me when I was a wee young green belt sophomore at military school (about 1992). In randori. Never even knew it existed. Neat throw, cleanly done. Since then, I’ve worked it a handful of times, but it’s not one of my favorites.
I think it's banned in most grappling rules with the exception of catch wrestling I believe. I agree with the ban, however I think an issue is that because it's banned, no one knows how to do it correctly and when that one person does do it, they don't know how to and so they injure the person.
If you are concerned about kani basami injuries, the Koga roll is a much safer alternative. Its basically the same move. I'm not sure how useful it would be for Judo, but for BJJ and Sambo its an excellent way to attack the legs. Plus it looks cool.
3. Only done BJJ for 6 months and considering to swap to Judo, but the only times I think our coach mentioned flying scissor was when he listed the moves we WEREN’T allowed to pull when sparring.
The Kani Basami drill is that inside arm braces on the ground and low leg sweeps the feet. But you have to frikin drill it. If you do the entry properly you'll execute the technique that will open things up to an ankle lock or foot lock. BJJ players (I do it too) typically DONT drill and dive in putting all the pressure in the knee. Causing the breaks you see. The old injury with Kani Basami was actually concussions from hitting the mat. Not the knee breaks we see today by untrained tough guys try to be cool. Sambo fighters drill the technique and roll into leg locks.
It was definitely the knee and ankle injuries that caused the ban, not concussions. Concussions only became a concern in sports in the 2000's. Kani Basami was banned in Judo in the 80's, specifically because it kept destroying the knees of elite athletes. Remembering that we didn't have the surgical technology we have now at that time, that meant that entire sporting careers were ended, and people were litterally crippled because of this technique. There are ways to do it "safely" but the issue is skill and positioning, which are incredibly difficult to gain on a resisting and skilled opponent. It not a technique you can just "throw and hope it sticks" without significantly endangering your opponent. It works perfectly without causing injury in a very, very specific context, and that's it. Ever other context, its a roll of the dice whether it pops a ligament or breaks a bone. Remember, it's someone's entire bodyweight coming down on the side of the knee. The knee isn't designed for that.
I think it's a great throw that can be done safely. It just takes more practice than most techniques. That's the problem. How can you practice to the point of proficiency without hurting quite a few?