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nowhereman1223

Looks like mold or fungus. There is something very wrong with your side of that alleyway. Have you asked your neighbor how they managed to grow grass there? Stuff like mold and fungus don't stop on a nice neat line like you see here. The grass on the neighbor's side tells me they did something to grow grass.


jakeblues68

The area between our houses was bare for a few years after the original sod quickly died and last year she seeded the area with fescue. She aerated and seeded the entire area, including my side. The grass on her side took and the grass on my side for some reason didn't. Her house construction was completed about 8-10 months after mine and the dividing line is so clear it makes me think there's someone wrong with my soil.


nowhereman1223

I'd try to remove the top few inches of soil. Then get good dirt brought in. Till it and seed grass again.


RehkalBurd

I would be wary of tilling it as you dont know how deep the contamination is. It would likely be best to get soil samples tested so you know what is going on… and maybe how deep it goes.


gunitman

Looks you might need to regrade too. Looks like your side holds a lot of water


mrkruk

I agree with this - looks like that side gets water and doesn't get rid of it. A combo of grade and the sun exposure it likely barely gets.


CapinCrunch85

![gif](giphy|43jYC6JQIhST3rW1YU|downsized)


iamtherealwillmyska

But be careful where you put that moldy soil! Whenever it goes so does the mold


Superg0id

Depending on how much shadow you get on OP side vs neighbour side, you may need to look at different ground cover for that area. Also, moisture looks higher on OP side, so maybe that is contributing too.


sensation_construct

Do this☝️


95castles

Full spectrum soil test is what I would definitely do if I was in your shoes.


InevitableNo7342

If there’s a University Extension office in your state, they probably offer soil testing.


GeneralBS

Just curious what the average cost for that is.


95castles

All depends. But the lab near me probably charges $100-$150 for full. And like $80 for a standard macro and micronutrients testing


R3N3G6D3

This 100 times.


Deerslyr101571

Your lot is fallow and likely cursed by demons set upon the property by a witch.


mrkruk

I laughed so hard at this, 1600s lawncare advice.


MasterofCheese6402

Exorcise the Demons! 😈


DohDohDonutzMMM

![gif](giphy|Nf8vX5K7AHcAg) Oops! Wrong kind of exercise. 🤣


ManicOppressyv

He needs lots of salt for the ritual.


Responsible_Fox9201

Sounds like you have ghosts and they know where the property line ends.


mistergudbar

Does the dead grass extend to your back yard, too?


jakeblues68

Just on the other side of the fence, there's a downspout that has washed away the grass, but there's none of that mold or whatever it is.


mistergudbar

Good luck my man. Would be awesome if you had access to a skid steer or something similar to remove the top layer and replace with new soil. May need some water mitigation too. Best bet is to get it tested too.


demoman45

Could that be the northern side of your house, grass in my area tends to not grow on the north side due to lack of sunlight.


jakeblues68

East side.


G_DuBs

If your side gets no sunlight then this is the answer. That would leave a nice even line on the ground. Something similar happens at my house, just not as bad.


Snoo_87704

Not that even.


Milksteaks1

That is crazy! Please keep updating! 


ButtonWhole1

I recall one neighbor kept having palm trees dying. Same spot -2 or 3 trees, Contractor (Or someone ) dumped a battery and then filled over it. You never know!


SitaBird

That’s horrible!


nowhereman1223

Thats an EPA issue and massive fines. Obnoxious.


hippopott

It looks like that area is lower, so likely water stands there and makes it impossible for grass to grow. I would say the suggestions on changing soil are good, but it will likely happen again. Probably need to figured out better drainage.


nowhereman1223

The clear straight line makes that hard to beleive as the only issue.


IN2TECHNOLOGY

you should wear a mask if you move the dirt


Opening-Two6723

I think that's good mold for substrate. Good to plant with a lawn soil atop


The_Poster_Nutbag

Hey OP, am wetland scientist. This is an algal crust that formed when the area was presumably ponded for a not-insignificant amount of time. You seriously need to address the drainage issue directing water towards your foundation. I would recommend working with a civil engineering firm who will properly design and permit any grading changes.


DirkDeadeye

Thanks Dr. u/The_Poster_Nutbag


The_Poster_Nutbag

Actually that's my cat, my name is Jimmy.


DirtMahoney

My cats name is Harpua, my wife wouldn’t allow poster nutbag and her dogs already had names so we compromised


ccf91

Boy gets cat. Boy loves cat. Boy gives cat silly name. Boy lets cat outside. Cat meets dog. Cat loves dog. Dog loves cat... for dinner. Storm passes through. Boy mourns cat. Dad suggests goldfish. Boy mocks dad. Boy gets dog.


Big_Log_57

r/rimjobsteve


team-having-fun

Agreed, in addition to the lawn issue, it appears that the grade is above your slab. Typically you’d see the edge of your foundation. This allows for any moisture that gets in the wall to drain out through brick weep holes and not create moisture issues inside the wall. I’d say you and your neighbor need to re grade that area between your homes because they appear to have the same issue as well. So in conclusion I’d lower the grade on both sides and put in a French drain down the middle that drains to the curb.


Longjumping-Dot5937

Cha-ching!! Wishing you the best of luck.


Ohno-Ono

Agreed, the soil could be compacted adding to the drainage issue. Aerating or tillage would help also


jakeblues68

That sounds expensive.


LogicaIMcNonsense

Cost does not matter when it comes to your foundation. Is it possible that it is never an issue for you? Yes. But is it possible you end up with major foundation issues that end up costing you 10x re-grading would have cost? Also yes. Source: My father ignored a poor grade that drained water towards the house just like yours. End result was a crack in the foundation which flooded the entire basement during a massive rainstorm while we were out of town. Ended up costing him 10s of thousands and months of work. He has since re-graded around the entire house, added in deeper window wells that drain through multiple feet of gravel, and added sump pumps in a couple areas that he was not able to get draining perfectly away from the house.


EjackQuelate

Ya screw hiring an engineering firm lmao. It’s not rocket science to grade and fix the soil issue. Good lord


ateamhasnonam3

Operation stop watering there begins today… That can happen if sections are over saturated long enough.


nowhereman1223

But that won't happen with that definite of a line. Water isn't that accurate.


ateamhasnonam3

Other dude maintains his soil so the water isn’t affecting the same was my guess. I’d scratch off the black crust basically scarifying and water once a week. It’ll grow back.


Gravelsack

I'd bet money that he has gutters overflowing on that side of the house


ateamhasnonam3

You’d win the $$ the more I’ve looked at it. That’s where the waters coming from. The cat with the French drain suggestion hit it on the nail..


fourteen0niner

Looks like a mat of algae to me. If you get long periods of water standing in this area then that would be the reason for the algae and no grass


greenerdoc

How deep does the soil go? Wonder if there is a concrete pad under there and they just laid sod on top of a thin layer of soil. The perfect straightness is suspicious and looks man-made.


Visible_Field_68

Someone laid lime down to do exactly what is going on there


Working-Mine35

That's black slime mold. Do a soil analysis so you can determine pH and treat accordingly. You likely also need a french drain to wick the moisture out of the soil. Looks like poor draining soil along with not much of a positive slope. You could also consider plant solutions instead of lawn. Mondo Grass is one groundcover that will handle those difficult growing conditions. Either way, start with a soil analysis. They're cheap and usually avaliable through your local extension service.


WSDreamer

That’s mold from the dead bodies buried there.


jakeblues68

That would also explain all the Zuul sightings.


AggressiveAd2759

I was gonna say the same thing


dijari2001

Damn, this comment makes me shiver... but its definitely possible...


smithsmash

Looks like that is where water pools when it rains. You can see the neighbors side is elevated.


jakeblues68

Yes, I just went out and looked again and the grading on her side is much more elevated than my side.


Tobias_Machiavelli

By the way, I love that brick siding for the lower section of your home.


iinfamous_

r/mycology


movingshrub

Not enough sun light. Was the sod on your side Bermuda?


jakeblues68

Yes, but all the houses in our neighborhood are this close together and I don't see this issue elsewhere. Also, when my neighbor aerated and re-seeded last year with fescue, she did my side as well.


shortformyheight

My guess is that it was scalped at some point and it didn’t recover. Or you are mowing too low for the grass to survive the shady conditions. The black stuff indicates a moisture problem. Your neighbor might not be affected by the moisture as much because taller and thicker the grass will take up more moisture from the soil and release it through the grass blades. I would scrape and remove the black stuff for sure and remove an additional inch or two of the soil if you’re up for it. Apply a fungicide and topdress the area with about two inches of 1 part good black dirt to 2 parts sand and reseed. Aeration before topdress would be good especially if you remove the cores but up to you whether or not you want to spend the money/effort. Once the new grass is tall enough to mow, just keep it as tall as your neighbor’s. DON’T mow more than 1/3 of the blade length or it will die.


IdeasForTheFuture

This is the answer, OP!


SonoranDirtBag

This


1bunchofbananas

You could do all that or just turn it into a walk way if it makes sense instead


MrNoGood88

Looks like algae


SliverSerfer

Go get a soil test kit and send it in, only way you'll figure it out I'd imagine.


DrMantisToboggan670

Do you have gutters on your house or is the water running directly off the roof and onto that area?


TheOGdeez

Like others have said....start by getting some soil samples and sending in for testing. After testing and understanding wtf all that is.... I'd do a basic till job to turn the soil a bit. And then bring in about 2-3" of topsoil. A good compost/sand mix.


Affectionate-Skin-18

Looks like someone saturated it with weed/grass killer


Smooth_thistle

I'd agreeb with this. For that sharp of a line? Someone used long acting herbicide.


Ayeron-izm-

No product is lasting 4 years. There’s a soil issue, either chemical or physical. Black Algae on top and crusting. If Algae is growing then it means that area is shaded and wet a lot.


iamtherealwillmyska

Slime mold comes in all shapes and sizes. I imagine prolonged moisture or something covering this area letting the mold grow. Don’t be too concerned. There are products you can purchase from the hardware store. But the moisture is the issue from the start, get rid of it if you can


garbonzo

Put in rocks and some paver stones.


jakeblues68

I'm getting some great suggestions in this thread, however many of them would easily get into the thousands of dollars with no guarantee of effectiveness. Rock and paver stones may be the best option.


capttuna

Ask your neighbor theirs looks nice… Stick a screwdriver in the ground. Could be something under there. If not it’s very wet and shady, loosen it up throw a little lime shade seed starter fert and keep the seed moist which looks like no issue


americanredneck2021

Till that soil about 8 inches deep. Remove all the dirt. Replace it with a mixture of topsoil and manure compost. Grass should grow fine then. Often when companies build slabs they place the dirt from footing and driveways between the houses. Looks to be lots of clay in that area.


Wide_Veterinarian100

It’s surface mildew/algea. You have a micro climate in that area with low airflow. Route any gutters out of there. In the future only mow when it’s not mushy, so you don’t trample it down. Mow atleast every 7 days if not more often and keep up with a fungicide regimen if you’re in the transition zone.


playfuldarkside

Test the soil I wonder if something was laid down or spilled on your side. 


rkcinotown

Not good. Someone dumped something there and the soil is contaminated. I’ve seen this where people have dumped used motor oil in the yard when it was still legal, and probably after


SizzlingSpit

It still legal as long as it's not used. Correct me if I'm wrong, did excavation pm years ago and had to deal with epa sometimes.


rkcinotown

Nooo dumping oil new or used is frowned upon by the epa. I grew up in the 80s and my dad dumped it on the fence line. He was furious when they changed the laws 😂😂 he probably got pissed when drinking and driving was outlawed


Striking_Worry_2821

Put a concrete sidewalk in and rock area.


tic_tact_no

Have you dug down at all? I've seen something similar at my friend's neighbors' house. The could never grow grass in three areas, two strips on the side of the house, and then a odd circular section. On the side of the house it would get a little slimy and sometimes have resting water. Come to find out, the previous owners had just put sod over concrete in those sections to sell the house. So there wasn't enough soil, and no drainage.


jakeblues68

I can easily run a 6" screwdriver all the way in all throughout the area. Also, I was there several times a week during construction and didn't see anything like that.


CompleteHour306

Looks your side is the bottom of the swale. Heavy rain brings in runoff and gets deposited there.


EndlessLeo

OP, in case you haven't been keeping track you have about 1,000 different ideas to try now. Better get started.


jakeblues68

Haha many of them sound expensive. I'm leaning toward moss or river rock.


EndlessLeo

Less to mow and keep up with and looks perfectly fine on a narrow strip next to the house.


These-Ticket-3424

I agree with concrete being under there possibly. And it holds too much water either way


J3rdatron

Yo, the mold near the ac unit of your neighbor looks more yellowish and less cracked than the rest. I am assuming less cracked means more wet, which means it’s more likely to be living then the rest


Darryn1967

Where I live, after a particularly snowy winter, we get a lot of snow mold in the spring and that looks like mold to me. Your soil ph is probably out of whack because of it too.


Hellspeaker

Build a half pipe there and drop in from your neighbors roof.


Visible_Field_68

Lime


Dismal-Dealer4298

Lime caused it, or lime will fix it?


Visible_Field_68

Lime is the cause. If the ground is completely compacted the lime won’t absorb and kill whatever sits in it. My brother in law did this so he didn’t have to mow.


cranky-goose-1

Smart man! I'm in awe if I could pull that off with out getting killed I certainly would.


PrelectingPizza

How much do you like your brother in law?


Visible_Field_68

He’s an idiot. He did it the first time because he didn’t read about it and figured more is better. Again he’s an idiot. Every year after he put more down. Then my father explained he killed the soil pretty much forever and putting more down is even more stupid than the first time. LOL


Longjumping-Dot5937

You think he might be an idiot?! LoL 🤣 jk


Old_Swimming6328

That's what I thought, lime or some other soil stabilizer.


Autobot36

I would aerate, or even till it. Get some good soil let it rest. Then in the fall ruff up the soil and seed


Arthur_Edens

I built a house and had a terrible time growing grass for a while because they move so much dirt around, you might end up with dirt that's been buried 15 feet deep for 1000 years as your "topsoil." That might be what happened here, and if it is, I'd 100% agree with you, but also say before you till, do a soil test and 1) Put a thick layer of compost on top before tilling, and 2) add any pH amendments the soil test says you need. There were spots in my "lawn" where the topsoil was basically washed clay with a pH of 8. Not ideal for fescue...


paklyfe

This here is the best answer. That soil looks like concrete. It needs to be tilled. Add in a bunch of compost or fresh turf soil to get some nutrients in there and till again. Ask what seed your neighbours used because that seems to have worked well.


GrassSloth

Till it or at least use a shovel or broad fork to loosen it up as deep as possible. Curious what it smells like...


Longjumping-Dot5937

I'd wear a mask...looks like algae & mold to me! Tilling is surely going to activate the mold spores. Please be safe & test your soil!! Best wishes.


drofnats55

Looks like nostoc to me.


Rough-Highlight6199

Is your neighbor growing fescue and youre growing bermuda? Too shaded for bermuda.


Angle_6369

I wonder if you have thought of another type of group cover that is not grass….like moss?


jakeblues68

I have not considered moss before, but now I'm intrigued. Many of the great solutions in this thread look as though they could go into the thousands of dollars. There's just no way I can do that. I will look into moss.


4eonblueapocalypse

Nostoc


VariousPaint4453

Maybe they had astroturf they took with them


fromspace2015

Is it north side of the house? I have been having similar issues but only on the north side.


jakeblues68

East.


harkinsa

Have you ever dug down? It looks like it should be a walk way, maybe there is concrete buried underneath a thin layer of dirt. It looks like the line continues beyond that little section of fence.


jakeblues68

I can run a 6" screwdriver all the way in with no resistance all through that section. Dirt seems to be mostly tightly packed clay. There's about 8-10 between when my house and my neighbor's house was built. Because that line is so clean, it appears her dirt is more conducive to growing grass.


Can_Not_Double_Dutch

Looks like not enough sunlight throughout the day causing diseased grass


jored924

Are you in Connecticut


ImASwedishFish

That straight line makes me wonder if something is buried there like maybe pavers that got mossed over or something. Id be sus that the neighbor only did their side but brain farted and said they did the entire strip.


Vegetable-Train2339

A very old, worn out weed carpet?


ATR-1327

Algae


gntlbastard

Looks like algae. I suspect that the side of the house does not ever dry out too often and it's a nice moist environment most of the time?


alexcole9191

This is great man because I have the same thing going on with my new build house I asked the neighbor if he would go half on a French drain and he told me not right now it’s getting worse and worse because he has a downspout not far way what would fix my side of the house at least?


No-Interview2340

Moss the area


jakeblues68

This seems like the best combination of most economical and most likely to work solution.


Shellsallaround

Yeah that is dried out mold there, It looks like that side of the house does not get a lot of sun light anyway. Some of the only times I have seen this kind of thing is when a broad spectrum permanent weed and vegetation killer was used. (chemical soil sterilizer) Lazy gardeners use it.


Realistic-Citron-683

Looks like you get standing water there and limited sunlight. Assuming you have Bermuda grass, that isn’t a conducive environment for it to survive


daisyboi72

Take a match to it


shadowedradiance

Soil test. More than likely, your Soil is messed up. Their house was built at a later time. Would be my first suspect. Also check about 6-12 inches down for back fill solid concrete. Be careful of utility . Small area could be as easy as removing the Soil and bringing in fresh stuff.


CouchHippo2024

I’d have soil samples tested immediately. That looks dangerous.


BaconManDan9

Old grass shavings


Affectionate-Skin-18

Also spray your yard down with dish soap and water, it also look like your yard has a fungal infection. Should clear up what looks like the white mildew


franktownwhat

Clear, Topsoil & sod


JeopardyJamesNeutron

Just based on the photo I’m guessing that alley gets zero sun. If so, put gravel or river rock is my best recommend


Ayeron-izm-

The perfect straight line is interesting, but looks like that’s a run off area for your neighbors lawn. Algae is another sign that area gets over saturated. Grass isn’t growing there and algae is because of the conditions.


Plus-Shock1002

Looks like waterlogged patch. Sometimes it’s possible the patch got contaminated and it turned too acidic! Also, does this area get good direct sunlight?. I’d remove that soil like others suggested and fill it up with a good top soil mixed with peat, and compost manure. Make sure the patch is well drained. With good amount of seeding and watering, it should catchup in a month!


b1gted

Funny how some people are saying put moss there. It is MOSS! It is dried, cracked, peeling moss! It was probably caused by too much moisture due to shadows/not enough sun in the area, but warm enough that it eventually dried out.


MedievalSalesmen

Looks like someone sprayed herbicide


Mean_Cranberry_7073

Do you have rain gutters? Water is probably dumping into this area from the roof.


OtisBDrftwd77

What do the gutters look like?


cranky-goose-1

Sure thing would be Astro turf then you have a no fail lawn. Do like the comments.


sveiks1918

Arsenic in soil.


Chromietime

Is there a drip line for that ac unit on your neighbors side? If so is it always going? I’ve seen those constantly pool and go to the lowest spot and create some issues before.


MadeUpUsername1900

I’d have to agree with contaminated soil. Had the exact same issue last year. I got my entire yard, front and back, landscaped. Every plant did great except for one side of my house. Everything died, including the sod I l put around the flower bed on that side. Had soil tested and I had “bad soil” on that side of my house.


Lunkerluke

Looks like angel snot,


SJMCubs16

I mean that shady area, along the edge of the house, you might consider rock treatment, or add some drainage sand and artificial grass.


Ok-Weird-4355

Soil test it, but scrape that shit out 2” down and get some fresh topsoil in them get your grass seed back in or sod it. Use strobe anti fungal


RandomlyJim

DRHorton?


Downtown-Thanks-6761

Fertilizer, aeration, and seed. Rinse and repeat.


Scag48

Saw a mention that there might be a concrete slab under there, try digging down. If not, soil test.


New-Choice-3280

Im.no expert but it almost looks like moss. Do.you have a high water table? I would rip it up and start from scratches with some new dirt and seed


na8thegr8est

Caused by standing water


No_Talk_7503

You might be over top an oil field … $$$


woodma134

The neighbor did it.


invalidkicks

That side probably gets less than 4 hours of sun. No grass will grow there. Hardscape it.


oldjackhammer99

Moss?


WhatthehellSusan

Do you by chance live near Love Canal?


Initial-College-2448

Is there a ventilation outtake on either of the houses? Like where your dryer exhaust goes out?


YGuy_The_Jedi

Where is your septic tank on peoperty?


Ok-City4216

Cement is the best remedy. Then ferns in pots.


Lornesto

Is there a sidewalk under there?


[deleted]

From that ac unit draining there keeping the ground most likely very moist around there


Bellis1985

Does your side ever get sun?  


Bangur_of_300

Cultivate, remove some soil / add fresh soil, level and seed you’ll be fine


One_More_Thing_941

Besides a drainage issue, looks like your neighbor has treated for grubs and maybe you didn’t.


chulioso

Do you need grass to grow there? I’d personally put a weed barrier down, then some kind of gravel that you like and you’ll never have to think about that strip again. Also keeps the side of the house clean since it doesn’t splash dirt against the house


MasterGardensensei

Do not haul away your soil. Do not put new soil on top. That's silly and its about .0001% chance you have a contamination issue. There is a high likelihood you have a water issue, as in too much, and all the nitrates have leeched away. Look at your drainage ,go outside when it rains hard and see what's going on. and go ahead and spoon feed ammonium sulfate or urea fertilizer in the mean time there is no nitrogen left.


jakeblues68

Man, I've got 200+ replies and about 100 different opinions in this thread. I think I'm more confused now than I was this morning.


jmanTruthSeeker

I support this response as a lawn care pro typically the simplest answer is the correct especially in lawn care


glassmanjones

Indian graveyard 


Wonderful-Patient602

I have the exact same stuff on the most shaded side of my house - 2nd story directly next to it blocks the majority of the sun. It’s a layer of / film of algae from damp, humid warm soil with poor drainage.


mrkruk

It looks like the victim of how the sun fills that area. In your pic you can see how the area where the sun is shining is not moldy or anything - there's even a decent tuft of grass growing there. And there's an area in the foreground where some grass is also growing. This section probably gets moisture in the mornings, but nothing burns off the moisture due it being shaded by the other house. The neighbor's grass seems to be on a higher level, so any moisture is draining off into your side. And their grass is of course also using some moisture to grow. You can see on the side of their air conditioner closest to you that there is a brownish red edge along their air conditioner. For them, that's where some fungus or mold is making their grass die off. Once the mold set in due to circumstances (bad sod?), it looks like it just took over. You should get this tested and see what kind of fungus/mold you're dealing with - then apply something to combat it. Clearly the conditions are correct in this particular spot to make this thrive. If you try to scrape and lay new dirt, it may work for a while, but it might all just take over again. When the soil is okay, you should make sure whatever grass you put in will work in that area. Since the neighbor's grass lives just fine there, go with what they have.


MixtureComplete5233

If you or your neighbor get your lawn serviced by a professional. The area in question is usually a drain route for residential properties where the houses are this close. The excess fertilizer builds up because the grass is weak from the shade and compaction. The green stuff is alge from the rain or irrigation. So I saw someone else say add new soil and re-sod that is a very good answer and is the fastest. Make sure it's a heavy shade tolerance turf!


ptroc

Wonder if the AC drains there.


stirling1995

HVAC tech here I’ve never once seen this, I’m sorry I don’t mean to be rude it just is extremely unlikely it’s from that. However just because I haven’t seen it doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened before


ptroc

No rudeness taken.


jakeblues68

[More pics](https://imgur.com/a/QHiBywy)


oxygenisnotfree

This is a water issue. Go out there during a rainfall and see where it's coming from.


DirkDeadeye

I'd say upwards


tenbytes

Kind of looks like a bunch of muck and debris that formed a layer on top of that dirt has dried out and cracked


6WichitaVegita9

I second soil test, hazmat removal of top layer of mold - alge. Then digging in a bunch of chanels from the house every three feet to the middle and down to front of house between the properties to a popup drain ending up somewhere down slope in front yard... Then tilling in good soils top 4" deep several times and adding good soil till the area is higher than it was against the house and taper down to the shared space. Then seeding.


R5Jockey

I'd start with your neighbor, not Reddit. They've clearly figured out how to grow grass well there.


jakeblues68

The new sod between our houses died after about a year. Last year, she aerated and seeded the entire strip between our houses, my side included.


yourmom1974

You have something underneath there like a concrete pad or even a plastic liner or even sand.


[deleted]

Kinda looks like the neighbors graded their side and now all the muck pools on your side then dries out. I assume sometimes it’s swampy? It was probably like this across all of it and they have been working on it for a little bit.


MarkABeets

Florida?


andy9173

Dried up standing water that had grown algee and maybe some other stuff I believe. Bad drainage issue.


DrenBla

Kinda looks like old landscaping fabric


IdowhatIwant9

Looks like contamination to me


jackparadise1

I am wondering how much soil is under that layer of algae and how compacted it might be.