Matthews
Nylander
Knies
McMann
Cowan
Rielly I guess (just because I like him, I know he’s not great)
McCabe
Woll
Brandon Pridham
Every other player/prospect/staff member can be on the table.
I like Benoit, I think he’s the kind of depth defenceman we need, but if you’re stretching your definition of untouchable to include third pair D, the word doesn’t really mean much anymore.
Value and skill set, a very good 3rd pairing d man at what 1.4 mil? With our cap situation this is exactly the type of player we need, never trade that
So if you have an amazing trade, say it’s Marner going somewhere and your getting back a 2C, a 3C, a pick, and a prospect, and the other team says, “we’ll do it but we want Benoit” you’re going to hang up the phone?
Benoit isn’t untouchable. You don’t want to deal Benoit, but if Nashville insists on him to get Saros I’ll fucking drive him to the airport.
There’s a difference between untouchable and available. Benoit is not available, but he’s not untouchable.
The value in that deal would be off, especially with Benoit included, so yes, you hang up the phone because you’re about to get fleeced.
Edit: not saying Benoit is untouchable. It’d take a great deal to move him though because his departure would leave another hole to fill and he’s very affordable.
If you’re in negotiations to get a top goalie and the other GM says that the package has to include Benoit, are you hanging up the phone? Benoit is great but untouchable indicates a player who you wouldn’t even consider moving and as much as I like the Milkman, he doesn’t fall into that category.
This is the answer....everyone in the list with Benoit. Rielly I want around because he signed a reasonable deal per his quality for long term...something a fuckin' LEADER does.
Rielly gets too much flack. He is a very good player, but not a top 10 LHD.
He is being asked to be an elite franchise player, when he is a 1B defenceman or 2A.
exactly, and imo, Rielly is far and away our best puck moving defencemen, and I believe the lack of puck moving defencemen on this team greatly contributes to our lack of offence. Don’t get me wrong, I loved the way our defence played this series, think for the most part they were awesome, but being able to move the puck is also very important. As for Mo, he’s never truly had an amazing partner, Luke Schenn arguably his best ever, and I believe if you can get him a 1A kinda guy, it would help him elevate his game. I love Morgan Rielly more than anyone else, got multiple jerseys and all, but he’s not the kinda defenseman who you want playing 30 minutes a night
I also just feel like the Leafs already have so much work to do on D and believe it or not Rielly and McCabe are their two best options currently so to remove either would just make that task even harder.
Rielly might need to be considered…. He has a NMC too. But if we want a true #1 D here one day, Rielly might have to be the DeRozan we send out for a Kawhi…
People seem to forget that Kawhi was a pending UFA who wasn't going to re-sign. That's the only reason why DeRozan could be traded for a straight up better player.
It would be like us trading Reilly for ekblad, a FA in 2025, knowing he's going to leave.
Hahaha.. yeah, no. Was a comment on the Kawhi/DeRozan Raptors trade. That was the comparison made, not by me. Just sayin, if the results would be the same Id make the trade in a heartbeat.
The bigger factor was that San Antonio wanted to be competitive still and were not prioritizing draft picks. I'll use MacKinnon as an example because it's not realistic but if for whatever reason he forces his way out of Colorado they would probably want a guy like Mitch over picks because the rest of their team is still very good
I wouldn’t mind bringing Domi back on the right deal but didn’t include him in the untouchables list because he isn’t under contract.
As for Treliving I’m a bit concerned about his vision for the back end. Seems like he’s obsessed with immobile giants when we really need guys who can break out of the zone and contribute on offence.
How’d that work out for Calgary? The only team that philosophy has really worked for is Vegas. However, the real secret sauce for Vegas wasn’t how big that D-core was. It was that they had good transition defense. They happened to be big, used their size, but they moved the puck. Size is useless if you can’t transition from defense to offense.
It worked out great. He lead them to 1st in the west and a division title without having huge stars like the leafs. He every year had a top 5 defense.
And I was saying transitional players are great for Tre. He got Hannifin, Anderson, kylington. Those are all great players but he also needed a mix of strength to clear out the net and Tanev and zadorov were amazing.
Whether you like it or not defense is Tre’s strength
I mean his hands were tied with that trade, and absolutely no one saw Huberdeau turning into an absolute pumpkin. Everyone was praising him for the return until Hubey was shit the next year. And Weegar has been really solid for them.
His hands weren’t that tied. Tkachuk did not have trade protection, had one year left, and was still going to be an RFA at the end of his deal. There was also plenty of criticism at the time. More stats inclined analysts were skeptical of Huberdeau being successful in Calgary. Treliving also didn’t have to re-sign the guy. That was Tre’s mess, and it was avoidable.
I don’t think that the return he got for Tkachuk was at all bad. Everyone thought it was a great return at the time. Nobody expected Huberdeau to become incredibly mid out of nowhere
Even with hindsight that is a great trade. Low-end 1RD, 40-point winger and a 1st round pick is a great return for a guy who basically chose his destination.
If he could swing that trade for Marner it would be a home run.
The only problem is the horrible contracts he signed *after* the trade.
Even with 115 being a mirage, Huberdeau played at a 90 point pace for 3 seasons prior. Even 80-90 point Huby, Weegar and a first would have been a really good return. It wouldn't have left them with the best player in the deal, but they would have been in a much better position.
I would bet if Tre makes a Marner trade he's not going to get equal value in that deal. He's probably not making another star-for-star type deal in this case, either trading for futures and cap space, or multiple players that are lower tier than Mitch. But the man would have to be extremely cursed to make another deal where the players acquired combine to score 75 fewer points in their first year with the team.
The Leafs aren’t getting a 100 point winger, a top dman, a 1st and a prospect for Marner. The kid hasn’t broke 100 points in a season and he’s a liability in the playoffs.
Tre got dealt a shit hand with all his players wanting out of Calgary (namely Americans who didn’t want to be in Canada - fox, Johnny g, tkachuk)
Weegar is a great dman and no one expected Hubby to fall off a cliff as bad as he did. I don’t think he’s an amazing GM by any means but he made the most of a tough spot with those guys.
Domi and Bert are two I’d be really unhappy with if they left. There are some bad things that can be said about their game, but these two play 110% every single shift. If the entire team played like they did it would be a whole different story.
Matthews, Nylander, Woll, Knies, McCabe is your core going forward. Everyone else is on the table. Except if someone wants to trade McDavid or MacKinnon, I’ll ship out the whole team.
Cowan mcmann knies minten
I’m open to offers on just about everything else.
I wouldnt give away matty or Willy but let’s be honest those trades would have to be silly overpayment
U wouldn’t even keep Willy? I mean u said everyone for the right price so I understand, a lot of teams would be willing to throw the kitchen sink to get Willy after his good playoff performances and a reliable 80-90 points / season
I'll start off by saying I've been a willy defender since day one, but here's how I look at it. if this were ea sports and nmcs didn't exist I think it would make a lot of sense to trade him. He's 28, coming off a career season, and has a massive extension due to kick in. this is the most valuable he's ever going to be. this core has proven that they're not a real contender but if you could get a kitchen sink type deal for willy, it would go along way towards a retool.
you're never going to get the kitchen sink for willy because even if he does agree to waive his nmc, he still gets to pick his destination.
I'd argue that for the next 4 years they should be trading every possible pick as anyone they bring in won't be good enough to make an impact in their window.
In that case you need to ship out everyone for picks and prospects. No sense in keeping anyone if their window is going to close before we're done the rebuild.
Matthews and Nylander pretty much. Knies is up there but untouchable is a strong word and I’d let him go if we had a shot at acquiring a legitimate top 10 in the league starter. In terms of front office types I have no desire to part with Pridham, Wickenheiser, or Wes Clark, but I’m really open to change this off-season so there’s not many people I’d lock in as untouchable.
My personal opinion of a good offseason:
One of the core 4 is moved on from. I would think marner is the odd one out but it’s between marner and Tavares assuming they are convinced to waive the no trade clause. Also to be clear this is not a fuck marner or Tavares is old as dirt take. 6 years of these 4 power forwards is clearly not the answer and scoring 2 or less goals in 13 of 14 playoff games is such a waste of money that is best spent on goal or defense that could really push this team forward.
Resign Domi
Woll is starter next year. Sammy can stay on if accepting of back up role and back up money.
Address special teams coaching.
In terms of true untouchables: Matthews and Nylander
I agree but I’d add resign bert as well, domi bert Matthews line is great. I’d honestly like to see Marner gone and I think we need a better starter. Woll is decent but he’s injury prone and we can’t rely on Sammy again. We need an ullmark and swaymen duo.
With the quality players Toronto already has waiting in the wings, everyone is expendable, every player needs to be looked at under the microscope to see if their weaknesses can be addressed, to build a winner it all has to be on the table
Riot if gone: Matthews (A -> C, he'd die for this team and has shown an improvement in leadership ability), Nylander (blank -> A, playoff stud and bench motivator, need I say more?)
Very sad to see go: McCabe, Knies, Domi, McMann, Woll, Benoit
Disappointed to see go: Kampf (plays well in playoffs imo), Robertson (depth scoring), Reaves (great guy to have around), Liljegren, Edmundson, Jarnkrok, Dewar
Understandable: Sammy, Jones, Bert (not sure he wants to stay otherwise very sad), Holmberg, Gregor, Lyubushkin, Brodie, Timmins, Giordano
100% on the trade pile: Marner, Rielly (love these guys but for the sake of consistent playoff level hockey and trying something new)
Immovable object: Tavares (C -> A/blank) (would love him on the 3rd line with a friendly contract after this year)
Lmk if I missed anyone or you disagree.
I'm starting to hate the fact that I don't hate Keefe. He's 100% gone but I'll respect the man and his attempts, however feeble, since he gave us some great regular season hockey. I'm a huge football guy (from England so real football) and sometimes it's the players' mentality and not the coach, you can have 3 managers in one football season and nothing changes. Firing Keefe will give a good indication on any rotten apples to send to the block. Shanahan can be binned no questions asked, Tre has 1 year to get to the 2nd round since new guys will wanna clean up thoroughly (unless Tre was technically the start of this new direction?). I'm both excited and terrified for our future with so much change on the horizon.
Edit: special teams coaching has to be binned, in fact the whole team behind Keefe is gone with him ofc
Non-negotiables are Matthews, Nylander, Knies, Cowan, Woll. Everyone else is expendable although there are some individuals that are preferred to be kept if possible.
Only untouchable: Matthews
The “unless you make an offer that I can’t refuse”:
Knies
Woll
Nylander
Maybe Cowan and McCabe
Everyone else is open for business
Matthews
Nylander
Woll
End of list
There are plenty more players that I would love to keep
McMann
Knies
Benoit
McCabe
But realistically if a good deal is proposed and they are included we need to be willing to lose a piece we like.
Outside of that I’d like to see domi, Bert and Edmunsson back as free agent signings.
Organizationally Treliving doesn’t deserve to be canned as he just walked into the mess dubas and shannahan created every other member of the front office should be considered to be fired.
Nylander, Knies and I’d like to see Bert n’ Domi stay, just for the entertainment value they contribute. I thought Woll for sure but there’s a question about how injury-prone he is now.
Re-sign Bert & Domi. Sign Knies long term. Do all we can to have JT and Marner waiver their NM and get as much as possible. Get Rod and bod behind the bench.
Just saw SDP, and there was a trade suggestion that I did not consider.
And tbh, I'm not a fan of the player, but he is a high profile player that fills an organizational need.
Tavares for Seth Jones? 1 for 1. What do you all think?
Jones doesn't want to be part of a rebuild, so he may be open to waive. And whatever Treliving needs to discuss to JT to make the trade happen, he would need to do it.
Seth Jones is signed to a terrible contract until 2030…at least if we keep Tavares we control our destiny after this season and can do whatever we want with the cap space that’s freed up when his contract expires.
What if Blackhawns retain a bit, and in exchange we retain half of JT as well?
I'm more interested in what we all think of Jones as a player. He's been pretty bad with Chicago. But it has come out that he hates being part of a rebuild. It was a reason he didn't extend with Columbus, and with Chicago being as bad as they have been, maybe a change in scenery would help.
Whoever we would acquire from FA will probably cost as much, if not more. It's a risky trade and it *can* turn out bad, so I'm not saying I would be 100% on board with this. But changes need to happen, and this would definitely count as a change.
It’s not an awful idea, but I think a big part of the issue this team has is tying up big money in low performing assets that you can’t move…that’s literally Seth Jones. I can’t with 100% certainty that he’s washed, but I would hope they could find a better value player than a 9.5 million dollar underperformer. There’s also the problem of Tavares waiving his no-trade; I cannot see that happening, you would have much better luck with Marner. The best I could see is JT burning a year and taking a “cheap” deal next offseason.
EDIT: to add on to this, I don’t hate Seth Jones as a player as much as others do, I actually used to be a big fan. My main gripe is at this point in his career, with his contract, it’s more of a risk. He’s getting paid like one of the best defensemen in the league and I don’t think he warrants it. If we commit big money to a player, I’d either want them to be younger with massive upside, or a proven playoff performer. If those options aren’t available, cap flexibility makes most sense to me so we have the opportunity to make moves if something else comes up
JT has 1 year remaining on his contract I don’t think he would wave his clause and I believe he resigns at a friendly cap and remains the captain. Marner will probably wave his clause to get a healthy start somewhere else.
Ok here it is:
If I’m management I’m getting rid of Marner, Samsonov and maybe Tavares while they can still fetch a decent price. I’d look at adding a solid offensive defender like a Cale Makar type character…
Sammy in my opinion needs to go down to AHL for a while.. he’s just not NHL material except for maybe 20% of the time he stands on his head.. not good enough
Marner severely underperformed in the later half of the season and watching him give away puck after puck in the playoffs… trade him for early draft pick next year OR for established forward that can hang out on the knies line
I’m very impressed with Joe Woll but he’s injury prone so get a goalie that is a close second and nurture them both.
The core isn’t bad and they signed big contracts so keep them.
A lot of people hate Keefe but he’s actually not a bad coach. NHL seems to have this whole “old boys club” vibe that’s wrong. Sure, a coach with playoff experience past the first round would be nice but first and foremost we need to fix the goaltending issue and make sure the team is healthy before nitpicking (I know I know I sound like a hypocrite)
Next year is our year boys chin up!
If I was the GM, I’d try something like this…
Boeser and a 2nd for Marner and a 3rd, no salary retained. (This frees up $5 million).
Move Reaves for Macewan (frees up about $700k)
Move Rielly, for Hedman
Why would Tampa ever make the Rielly/Hedman deal? And why would Vancouver do the Boeser/Marner deal after the Canucks have gone on a run? In both cases they’re taking the player with a worse playoff track record
Van might do Brock for Marner 1 for 1 to get a setup guy for Petey.. don’t think they would do a pick swap though especially due to the salary difference.
2nd point, what kind of psychopath in Tampa would move hedman for Reilly?!?
My thoughts exactly when it comes to why Vancouver might want Marner. Boeser all year was the odd man out in Van so they might be willing to bite on a trade deal.
I think Tampa might consider Hedman for Reilly based on age and contract. The issue with Reilly is that when he makes a mistake, it tends to be a big one. The upside is that when he’s playing his best he becomes one of the best puck movers in the league and top level D-man. So for them, it’s shedding some cap, getting and getting few years younger. For Toronto it’s adding a Veteran to the blue line
Domi and Bert. Both really feel like they love toronto and want to be here. They also proved that whoever you put in a line with then, they can help produce.
Matthews/Nylander/Knies/Woll as players currently under contract
Domi I’d like to sign and keep
Prospect wise Cowan/Grebyonkin/Hildeby are my untouchables
Ideally I would also really like to keep Benoit/McMann/McCabe if at all possible.
Matthews, nylander, domi, bert, knies, mcmann, Robertson, mccabe, benoit…prolly a few more I’m missing but I’d be happy if we get rid of Marner and keefe tbh
Matthews, Nylander, McCabe.
I'd probably throw Knies on that list too, but honestly, trade anyone / everyone, if the right deal is available. Absolutely everything should be on the table for this group now.
Matthews, Nylander, Knies, Jarnkrok, Holmberg and Kampf, everyone else can go, i know thats not happening and there are lots of other players I would like to keep, but those are the ones that are untouchable to me. I want Domi resigned, I'm pretty sure we get to keep Dewar which is nice, I want us younger, leave the veterans to be the butchers on the back end but get some younger speed.
Matthews, Nylander, Domi, Knies, Reaves (he’s good for grit), Edmonton, Ilya labushkin, McMann, Woll
I’d still like to see Tavares win one in toronto if possible
Matthews, Willy, Treliving, Knies, Woll.
There are others that are not untouchable but I'm not fully sour on:
Liljegren showed improvement and I don't think he'd be particularly expensive
Domi supposedly wants to be here, and was impactful
Mo is a guy I love and don't want gone but I'm willing to grin and bear it under the right circumstances
JT only has one year left on his massive deal, I'm okay with him staying for much cheaper afterwards if he's willing to stay for much cheaper afterwards
Depending on what's available I don't think Sammy/Jones staying would be a disaster. They can play games and keep the team competitive. Not comfortable with either as a full time starter but I'm fine with either as a backup or a 1B. There are other goalies out there you can put in this role too so I'm not saying they *have to stay* I'm just saying I'm not particularly worried if they do they're fine depth regular season goalies and we needed depth regular season goaltending this year. If you can find improvements/equal value elsewhere then by all means go ahead but I already know if Sammy were to re-sign some segments of the fanbase are gonna panic and act like it's a bigger disaster than it actually is
We never actually used Boucher in the way he's supposed to be used. The guy is defensively minded and I never did nor will I ever understand why they had him coach offense. If he sticks around as a defensive coach I don't care
Based on performance: Woll, Domi, Knies, Nylander, Matthews, Benoit, McCabe
Based on practicality: Treliving, Lillijgren, Robertson, Tavares, Holmberg
People I'd like back if possible: Dewar, Edmundson.
Anyone who brings the mentality of pulling the team forward with more grit and holding each other accountable. I would part with players who can’t play with a sense of determination and urgency.
Examples of my untouchables,in no particular order:
Matthews
Reaves
McCabe
Domi
Knies
Holmberg
Edmundson
Benoit
McMann
I guess this is more of a list of keepers than untouchables.
only guy I don't trade no matter what is matthews. realistically though the core 4 + rielly all have nmcs so even if they would waive you're not getting any value. I'm also not going to shop knies, cowan, minten, or woll but they're definitely not untouchable.
From management? Brandon Pridham and Dr. Haley Wickenheiser OC.
From the NHL players...Auston, Nylander, Mitch, Knies, McCabe, and Benoit.
From the prospect pool...Easton Cowan.
Matthews,Nylander, Knies, Cowan, maybe Woll
I don’t see any reason to trade McCabe, Benoit, McMann
The rest there can be a conversation had or can be including in a deal to better/help the team.
McCabe, Knies, Benoit, McMann, Lyubushkin , Woll, Matthews, Nylander, Domi, Edmondson, Dewar. Not necessarily untouchables but the players I’d like to see on the team next season.
Coulda been a fucken hero on the breakaway but Leafs dont have guys in the bottom six who scored anything other than Kampf in a 5-1 loss. Nah, guys like dewar/gregor are interchangeable pieces.
He’s a 4th liner who plays with heart and physicality and he’s cheap. Every team needs a 4th line that they can trust and plays with energy. Robertson is a defensive liability, small and may never turn into a true scoring threat. Robertson has to play in the top six to be effective and I don’t see him playing there for the Leafs.
I don’t trust Treliving to remake this roster. I’d rather run it back with a few additions around the edges than have him take a clever to it. I saw how he used a fair amount of cap space last season and was unimpressed. He also bungled the Nylander negotiations leading to a significant overpay. Getting rid of him would be my first move. I don’t care about the optics. Throw as much money as you can at somebody like Tulsky and go from there.
This is going to be controversial….but just Matthews. The caveat being that Marner, Nylander, Tavares, and Rielly have no moves, it’s going to be hard to find a taker for Kampf or Reaves, and I don’t know what it would take for me to trade Knies but I’m sure there’s a guy out there I’d want.
That said. IF you can’t deal Marner because he doesn’t want to, you won’t be able to deal Nylander, Tavares or Rielly more than likely, it’s going to be difficult to find someone to take Kampf or Reaves, you want to keep McMann, Knies, Holmberg and Jarnkrok probably because they’re cheap and good. Robertson and Dewar are RFAs…….. and that’s 12 forwards. That’s the whole team. If you need to use McMann in a deal to get a top 4 dman, he’s gone. If the other team insists on Holmberg being added to a deal you need, you have to trade him too. If you can’t trade the core 4, you have to change the mix and improve the deficiencies and that will cost someone we don’t want to deal.
Untouchable …. Mathews and Nylander.
I think it’s crazy to call anyone else an untouchable. I would pack Knies bag myself for a bonafide starting goalie or 1D
Can’t believe no one is listing Woll I’d like to see domi resigned.
Agree about Domi
Definitely keep Domi.
Woll is great but ask again once we have a better understanding of what his exact injury was
Woll can't stay healthy.
Matthews Nylander Knies McMann Cowan Rielly I guess (just because I like him, I know he’s not great) McCabe Woll Brandon Pridham Every other player/prospect/staff member can be on the table.
Just add Benoit to this list
I like Benoit, I think he’s the kind of depth defenceman we need, but if you’re stretching your definition of untouchable to include third pair D, the word doesn’t really mean much anymore.
Value and skill set, a very good 3rd pairing d man at what 1.4 mil? With our cap situation this is exactly the type of player we need, never trade that
Plus he partnered with McCabe which WAS THE leafs top pair in the playoffs and they were great.
We need Benoit bad ! And we keeping him
So if you have an amazing trade, say it’s Marner going somewhere and your getting back a 2C, a 3C, a pick, and a prospect, and the other team says, “we’ll do it but we want Benoit” you’re going to hang up the phone? Benoit isn’t untouchable. You don’t want to deal Benoit, but if Nashville insists on him to get Saros I’ll fucking drive him to the airport. There’s a difference between untouchable and available. Benoit is not available, but he’s not untouchable.
Excellent explanation and on that point Matthews and Nylander are the only ones
By this definition I’d agree. Untouchable? Small percentage of players fall in that category.
Correct
Then nobody is untouchable If Mcdavid becomes available then everyone is on the board
The value in that deal would be off, especially with Benoit included, so yes, you hang up the phone because you’re about to get fleeced. Edit: not saying Benoit is untouchable. It’d take a great deal to move him though because his departure would leave another hole to fill and he’s very affordable.
If you have to include him to get a player you really need you trade him. So not untouchable but most probably not getting traded
I mean sure, but then nobody is untouchable if you’re making claims like that Is Matthews available? Well if McDavid is available you trade him
If you’re in negotiations to get a top goalie and the other GM says that the package has to include Benoit, are you hanging up the phone? Benoit is great but untouchable indicates a player who you wouldn’t even consider moving and as much as I like the Milkman, he doesn’t fall into that category.
Have to keep in mind that players can be untouchable for their contracts as well or what they bring to the table for the price.
How is Benoit a stretch...but his D partner McCabe not?
Don’t worry, I think McCabe is a stretch too
And Minten.
He’s been amazing for the Blades this playoffs. Fucking game 7 on Tuesday.
This is the answer....everyone in the list with Benoit. Rielly I want around because he signed a reasonable deal per his quality for long term...something a fuckin' LEADER does.
Rielly gets too much flack. He is a very good player, but not a top 10 LHD. He is being asked to be an elite franchise player, when he is a 1B defenceman or 2A.
exactly, and imo, Rielly is far and away our best puck moving defencemen, and I believe the lack of puck moving defencemen on this team greatly contributes to our lack of offence. Don’t get me wrong, I loved the way our defence played this series, think for the most part they were awesome, but being able to move the puck is also very important. As for Mo, he’s never truly had an amazing partner, Luke Schenn arguably his best ever, and I believe if you can get him a 1A kinda guy, it would help him elevate his game. I love Morgan Rielly more than anyone else, got multiple jerseys and all, but he’s not the kinda defenseman who you want playing 30 minutes a night
I also just feel like the Leafs already have so much work to do on D and believe it or not Rielly and McCabe are their two best options currently so to remove either would just make that task even harder.
Rielly might need to be considered…. He has a NMC too. But if we want a true #1 D here one day, Rielly might have to be the DeRozan we send out for a Kawhi…
People seem to forget that Kawhi was a pending UFA who wasn't going to re-sign. That's the only reason why DeRozan could be traded for a straight up better player. It would be like us trading Reilly for ekblad, a FA in 2025, knowing he's going to leave.
If it wins the Leafs a Cup bring me fuckin Ekblad. See you Reilly.
If you think swapping ekblad for Reilly brings us a cup next year I got a bridge to sell you
Hahaha.. yeah, no. Was a comment on the Kawhi/DeRozan Raptors trade. That was the comparison made, not by me. Just sayin, if the results would be the same Id make the trade in a heartbeat.
Yeah, the model needs to be more McGriff/Fernandez for Alomar/Carter - value for value for teams looking for different things.
The bigger factor was that San Antonio wanted to be competitive still and were not prioritizing draft picks. I'll use MacKinnon as an example because it's not realistic but if for whatever reason he forces his way out of Colorado they would probably want a guy like Mitch over picks because the rest of their team is still very good
I'd add Tre. He was a victim of the circumstances he found himself in. Probably Domi too.
I wouldn’t mind bringing Domi back on the right deal but didn’t include him in the untouchables list because he isn’t under contract. As for Treliving I’m a bit concerned about his vision for the back end. Seems like he’s obsessed with immobile giants when we really need guys who can break out of the zone and contribute on offence.
Tre was great at getting those guys on the flames. Those guys are just very valuable so it’s not that easy to pick up at the deadline.
How’d that work out for Calgary? The only team that philosophy has really worked for is Vegas. However, the real secret sauce for Vegas wasn’t how big that D-core was. It was that they had good transition defense. They happened to be big, used their size, but they moved the puck. Size is useless if you can’t transition from defense to offense.
It worked out great. He lead them to 1st in the west and a division title without having huge stars like the leafs. He every year had a top 5 defense. And I was saying transitional players are great for Tre. He got Hannifin, Anderson, kylington. Those are all great players but he also needed a mix of strength to clear out the net and Tanev and zadorov were amazing. Whether you like it or not defense is Tre’s strength
I wouldn’t say that tbh, he did sign klingberg to help with puck movement on the backend but obviously it just didn’t work out
You want the guy behind the Tkachuk for Huberdeau trade to make a Marner trade for us?
I mean his hands were tied with that trade, and absolutely no one saw Huberdeau turning into an absolute pumpkin. Everyone was praising him for the return until Hubey was shit the next year. And Weegar has been really solid for them.
His hands weren’t that tied. Tkachuk did not have trade protection, had one year left, and was still going to be an RFA at the end of his deal. There was also plenty of criticism at the time. More stats inclined analysts were skeptical of Huberdeau being successful in Calgary. Treliving also didn’t have to re-sign the guy. That was Tre’s mess, and it was avoidable.
Weegar is a beast, I would have never thought that he would be that good.
Not everyone was praising him. I saw criticism for that deal at the time
Also traded Hamilton for Hanifin and Lindholm. He knows what he’s doing with that stuff
I don’t think that the return he got for Tkachuk was at all bad. Everyone thought it was a great return at the time. Nobody expected Huberdeau to become incredibly mid out of nowhere
Not everybody thought that and many people believed Huberdeaus 115 point season was a bit of a mirage
Even with hindsight that is a great trade. Low-end 1RD, 40-point winger and a 1st round pick is a great return for a guy who basically chose his destination. If he could swing that trade for Marner it would be a home run. The only problem is the horrible contracts he signed *after* the trade.
Don’t let the pending in a year RFA without any trade protection dictate where he plays. That would be a good start.
Even with 115 being a mirage, Huberdeau played at a 90 point pace for 3 seasons prior. Even 80-90 point Huby, Weegar and a first would have been a really good return. It wouldn't have left them with the best player in the deal, but they would have been in a much better position. I would bet if Tre makes a Marner trade he's not going to get equal value in that deal. He's probably not making another star-for-star type deal in this case, either trading for futures and cap space, or multiple players that are lower tier than Mitch. But the man would have to be extremely cursed to make another deal where the players acquired combine to score 75 fewer points in their first year with the team.
If we trade marner for a 100 point winger, a top pairing dman, a 1st and a prospect I’d be ecstatic
The Leafs aren’t getting a 100 point winger, a top dman, a 1st and a prospect for Marner. The kid hasn’t broke 100 points in a season and he’s a liability in the playoffs.
Yea no shit. The guy I’m responding to is acting like that’s a bad return
It is a bad return, look at Calgary now
No the signing was a bad extension. The return was epic
If it was so epic why hasn’t Calgary made the playoffs since it happened
Tre got dealt a shit hand with all his players wanting out of Calgary (namely Americans who didn’t want to be in Canada - fox, Johnny g, tkachuk) Weegar is a great dman and no one expected Hubby to fall off a cliff as bad as he did. I don’t think he’s an amazing GM by any means but he made the most of a tough spot with those guys.
Why though? It's not like he did an amazing job. We actually did worse than last season lol.
If they could afford it, both Domi and Bert should be back, signed by Treliving.
Glad to see McCabe on this list
Add Domi, too.
Add Benoit, remove Rielly and I hope Domi extends.
Matthews Knies Nylander else can eat dirt Rielly isn't a dman he is a rover who is awful at that
Nah bro. You wanna keep Minten. If Cowen is on your list, Minty needs to be as well.
I’d add resigning: Domi, Eddie, Robertson. They all seem like they have heart
Yup this is my exhaustive list as well
This list is more of “players we should keep”. Not untouchables.
Rielly’s pretty great but otherwise that comment solid choices.
Untouchable: Matthews, Knies, Nylander Would like back: Mcmann, Robertson, Rielly, mccabe, Woll, Domi, Bert, Benoit
Someone understands what untouchable means. Some of these lists are just 1/2 our roster
Domi and Bert are two I’d be really unhappy with if they left. There are some bad things that can be said about their game, but these two play 110% every single shift. If the entire team played like they did it would be a whole different story.
Add Will then I completely agree
Matthew's, Nylander, Knies.... Gilmour, Clark, Potvin
This warms my heart. I still have a poster from when I was a kid of Potvin, Gilmour, Clark and Andreychuk. That thing has to be close to 30 years old.
Sundin, Robert's, Tucker, Domi (Tie, though I'd consider keeping both)
Cujo & Johnny Bower
Matthews, Nylander, Woll, Knies, McCabe is your core going forward. Everyone else is on the table. Except if someone wants to trade McDavid or MacKinnon, I’ll ship out the whole team.
McDavid or MacKinnon would be a 1 for 1 trade with Matthews. Maybe worst case you throw in a sweetener
Oilers or Avs will never take that deal.
Gretzky got traded. No one is untouchable if the right deal comes along.
How did that work out for Edmonton? He was only traded because the owner had money problems
They won the cup within two seasons of the trade.
It worked out shit for Edmonton and Peter Pocklington. I just answered the question “Who is untouchable?” with ..: no one.
Ok smartass, “who should be untouchable”
Cowan mcmann knies minten I’m open to offers on just about everything else. I wouldnt give away matty or Willy but let’s be honest those trades would have to be silly overpayment
It’s really only Matthews. That’s the list. Honestly, everyone else can go for the right price.
U wouldn’t even keep Willy? I mean u said everyone for the right price so I understand, a lot of teams would be willing to throw the kitchen sink to get Willy after his good playoff performances and a reliable 80-90 points / season
I'll start off by saying I've been a willy defender since day one, but here's how I look at it. if this were ea sports and nmcs didn't exist I think it would make a lot of sense to trade him. He's 28, coming off a career season, and has a massive extension due to kick in. this is the most valuable he's ever going to be. this core has proven that they're not a real contender but if you could get a kitchen sink type deal for willy, it would go along way towards a retool. you're never going to get the kitchen sink for willy because even if he does agree to waive his nmc, he still gets to pick his destination.
Matthews, Nylander, Knies, Cowan and thats pretty much it. Also stop trading away 1st round picks.
I'd argue that for the next 4 years they should be trading every possible pick as anyone they bring in won't be good enough to make an impact in their window.
We need to rebuild, this core aint it.
In that case you need to ship out everyone for picks and prospects. No sense in keeping anyone if their window is going to close before we're done the rebuild.
no one should be untouchable. no one has earned the right to be untouchable
Matthews and Nylander pretty much. Knies is up there but untouchable is a strong word and I’d let him go if we had a shot at acquiring a legitimate top 10 in the league starter. In terms of front office types I have no desire to part with Pridham, Wickenheiser, or Wes Clark, but I’m really open to change this off-season so there’s not many people I’d lock in as untouchable.
My personal opinion of a good offseason: One of the core 4 is moved on from. I would think marner is the odd one out but it’s between marner and Tavares assuming they are convinced to waive the no trade clause. Also to be clear this is not a fuck marner or Tavares is old as dirt take. 6 years of these 4 power forwards is clearly not the answer and scoring 2 or less goals in 13 of 14 playoff games is such a waste of money that is best spent on goal or defense that could really push this team forward. Resign Domi Woll is starter next year. Sammy can stay on if accepting of back up role and back up money. Address special teams coaching. In terms of true untouchables: Matthews and Nylander
I agree but I’d add resign bert as well, domi bert Matthews line is great. I’d honestly like to see Marner gone and I think we need a better starter. Woll is decent but he’s injury prone and we can’t rely on Sammy again. We need an ullmark and swaymen duo.
It would be the leafiest thing if marner scored the game 7 ot winner against the leafs in the next post season
Pretty hard to do when you’re giving up the puck to avoid physical contact
With the quality players Toronto already has waiting in the wings, everyone is expendable, every player needs to be looked at under the microscope to see if their weaknesses can be addressed, to build a winner it all has to be on the table
Riot if gone: Matthews (A -> C, he'd die for this team and has shown an improvement in leadership ability), Nylander (blank -> A, playoff stud and bench motivator, need I say more?) Very sad to see go: McCabe, Knies, Domi, McMann, Woll, Benoit Disappointed to see go: Kampf (plays well in playoffs imo), Robertson (depth scoring), Reaves (great guy to have around), Liljegren, Edmundson, Jarnkrok, Dewar Understandable: Sammy, Jones, Bert (not sure he wants to stay otherwise very sad), Holmberg, Gregor, Lyubushkin, Brodie, Timmins, Giordano 100% on the trade pile: Marner, Rielly (love these guys but for the sake of consistent playoff level hockey and trying something new) Immovable object: Tavares (C -> A/blank) (would love him on the 3rd line with a friendly contract after this year) Lmk if I missed anyone or you disagree.
Perfect summary. Include keefe, and our shitty owners.
I'm starting to hate the fact that I don't hate Keefe. He's 100% gone but I'll respect the man and his attempts, however feeble, since he gave us some great regular season hockey. I'm a huge football guy (from England so real football) and sometimes it's the players' mentality and not the coach, you can have 3 managers in one football season and nothing changes. Firing Keefe will give a good indication on any rotten apples to send to the block. Shanahan can be binned no questions asked, Tre has 1 year to get to the 2nd round since new guys will wanna clean up thoroughly (unless Tre was technically the start of this new direction?). I'm both excited and terrified for our future with so much change on the horizon. Edit: special teams coaching has to be binned, in fact the whole team behind Keefe is gone with him ofc
Matthews, Nylander, Knies, Cowan, McCabe, Domi
- Aust - Willy - Knies - Woll - Mccabe - Benoit - Mcmann - Domi (not untouchable but I really wanna keep him) - Rielly - Cowan
Matthews, Nylander, Woll, Knies, Treliving, Pridham
Keep Matthews, Domi, Nylander, Woll. Call ‘em the “Encore four”
Domi
Matthews, Nylander, Knies, Mccabe, Cowan, Woll
Matthews, Nylander, Knies, Cowan, Minten, McMann, Woll, McCabe, Benoit
I’d want to add minten to the untouchable list
Matthews, Nylander, Knies, and Woll. Anyone else is available for the right price
Non-negotiables are Matthews, Nylander, Knies, Cowan, Woll. Everyone else is expendable although there are some individuals that are preferred to be kept if possible.
- Matthews - Nylander - Rielly - Benoit - McCabe - Knies - McMann - Domi - Woll
Matthew’s Nylander Domi Edmundson Bertuzzi Woll McCabe Benoit Reilly
Willy and Matthews and Knies everyone else is expendable, Woll is injury prone and not sure if he can be healthy for a full season
Only untouchable: Matthews The “unless you make an offer that I can’t refuse”: Knies Woll Nylander Maybe Cowan and McCabe Everyone else is open for business
Matthews Nylander Woll End of list There are plenty more players that I would love to keep McMann Knies Benoit McCabe But realistically if a good deal is proposed and they are included we need to be willing to lose a piece we like. Outside of that I’d like to see domi, Bert and Edmunsson back as free agent signings. Organizationally Treliving doesn’t deserve to be canned as he just walked into the mess dubas and shannahan created every other member of the front office should be considered to be fired.
Marner for 8 and Tavares for 2
Nylander, Knies and I’d like to see Bert n’ Domi stay, just for the entertainment value they contribute. I thought Woll for sure but there’s a question about how injury-prone he is now.
Re-sign Bert & Domi. Sign Knies long term. Do all we can to have JT and Marner waiver their NM and get as much as possible. Get Rod and bod behind the bench.
Just saw SDP, and there was a trade suggestion that I did not consider. And tbh, I'm not a fan of the player, but he is a high profile player that fills an organizational need. Tavares for Seth Jones? 1 for 1. What do you all think? Jones doesn't want to be part of a rebuild, so he may be open to waive. And whatever Treliving needs to discuss to JT to make the trade happen, he would need to do it.
Seth Jones is signed to a terrible contract until 2030…at least if we keep Tavares we control our destiny after this season and can do whatever we want with the cap space that’s freed up when his contract expires.
What if Blackhawns retain a bit, and in exchange we retain half of JT as well? I'm more interested in what we all think of Jones as a player. He's been pretty bad with Chicago. But it has come out that he hates being part of a rebuild. It was a reason he didn't extend with Columbus, and with Chicago being as bad as they have been, maybe a change in scenery would help. Whoever we would acquire from FA will probably cost as much, if not more. It's a risky trade and it *can* turn out bad, so I'm not saying I would be 100% on board with this. But changes need to happen, and this would definitely count as a change.
It’s not an awful idea, but I think a big part of the issue this team has is tying up big money in low performing assets that you can’t move…that’s literally Seth Jones. I can’t with 100% certainty that he’s washed, but I would hope they could find a better value player than a 9.5 million dollar underperformer. There’s also the problem of Tavares waiving his no-trade; I cannot see that happening, you would have much better luck with Marner. The best I could see is JT burning a year and taking a “cheap” deal next offseason. EDIT: to add on to this, I don’t hate Seth Jones as a player as much as others do, I actually used to be a big fan. My main gripe is at this point in his career, with his contract, it’s more of a risk. He’s getting paid like one of the best defensemen in the league and I don’t think he warrants it. If we commit big money to a player, I’d either want them to be younger with massive upside, or a proven playoff performer. If those options aren’t available, cap flexibility makes most sense to me so we have the opportunity to make moves if something else comes up
JT has 1 year remaining on his contract I don’t think he would wave his clause and I believe he resigns at a friendly cap and remains the captain. Marner will probably wave his clause to get a healthy start somewhere else.
Ok here it is: If I’m management I’m getting rid of Marner, Samsonov and maybe Tavares while they can still fetch a decent price. I’d look at adding a solid offensive defender like a Cale Makar type character… Sammy in my opinion needs to go down to AHL for a while.. he’s just not NHL material except for maybe 20% of the time he stands on his head.. not good enough Marner severely underperformed in the later half of the season and watching him give away puck after puck in the playoffs… trade him for early draft pick next year OR for established forward that can hang out on the knies line I’m very impressed with Joe Woll but he’s injury prone so get a goalie that is a close second and nurture them both. The core isn’t bad and they signed big contracts so keep them. A lot of people hate Keefe but he’s actually not a bad coach. NHL seems to have this whole “old boys club” vibe that’s wrong. Sure, a coach with playoff experience past the first round would be nice but first and foremost we need to fix the goaltending issue and make sure the team is healthy before nitpicking (I know I know I sound like a hypocrite) Next year is our year boys chin up!
My 🥜
If I was the GM, I’d try something like this… Boeser and a 2nd for Marner and a 3rd, no salary retained. (This frees up $5 million). Move Reaves for Macewan (frees up about $700k) Move Rielly, for Hedman
Why would Tampa ever make the Rielly/Hedman deal? And why would Vancouver do the Boeser/Marner deal after the Canucks have gone on a run? In both cases they’re taking the player with a worse playoff track record
Van might do Brock for Marner 1 for 1 to get a setup guy for Petey.. don’t think they would do a pick swap though especially due to the salary difference. 2nd point, what kind of psychopath in Tampa would move hedman for Reilly?!?
My thoughts exactly when it comes to why Vancouver might want Marner. Boeser all year was the odd man out in Van so they might be willing to bite on a trade deal. I think Tampa might consider Hedman for Reilly based on age and contract. The issue with Reilly is that when he makes a mistake, it tends to be a big one. The upside is that when he’s playing his best he becomes one of the best puck movers in the league and top level D-man. So for them, it’s shedding some cap, getting and getting few years younger. For Toronto it’s adding a Veteran to the blue line
I could also see Mitch to Van for Hronek
Domi
As a Saskatoon Blades fan, it’s fun watching Fraser Minten and Brandon Lisowsky play now that the leafs are done. Just please don’t get rid of them 😅
Bert Domi McCabe Woll Knies Treliving Edmundson Benoit I figure Matthews and Willy are both givens but eh
Matthews Knies McMann Domi Benoit McCabe Woll Hildeby (really hyped to see his debut) Robertson (has so much potential when he’s healthy)
Marner and keefe
Domi and Bert. Both really feel like they love toronto and want to be here. They also proved that whoever you put in a line with then, they can help produce.
Matthews/Nylander/Knies/Woll as players currently under contract Domi I’d like to sign and keep Prospect wise Cowan/Grebyonkin/Hildeby are my untouchables Ideally I would also really like to keep Benoit/McMann/McCabe if at all possible.
I'd add lord Stanley
Bertuzzi Nylander Knies Domi McCabe
Matthews, nylander, domi, bert, knies, mcmann, Robertson, mccabe, benoit…prolly a few more I’m missing but I’d be happy if we get rid of Marner and keefe tbh
The game 6 fans. That's it.
Matthews!
Matthews, Nylander, McCabe. I'd probably throw Knies on that list too, but honestly, trade anyone / everyone, if the right deal is available. Absolutely everything should be on the table for this group now.
Matthews, Nylander, Knies, Jarnkrok, Holmberg and Kampf, everyone else can go, i know thats not happening and there are lots of other players I would like to keep, but those are the ones that are untouchable to me. I want Domi resigned, I'm pretty sure we get to keep Dewar which is nice, I want us younger, leave the veterans to be the butchers on the back end but get some younger speed.
Woll knies Benoit McCabe Holm erg McCann I like to see all stay
Matthews, Nylander, Domi, Knies, Reaves (he’s good for grit), Edmonton, Ilya labushkin, McMann, Woll I’d still like to see Tavares win one in toronto if possible
Matthews Nylander Woll Mccabe Knies and all the younger guys. I want domi and bertuzzi back but if we can only have one Domi.
Matthews Benoit Mccabe Nylander Domi Knies
Matthews is the entire list. Untouchable doesn’t mean what a lot of you seem to think. You listen on anyone else
Bobby Mc is the working man's heart and soul of the Leafs. No more waivers please, guy is too much of a stud.
Matthews, Willy, Treliving, Knies, Woll. There are others that are not untouchable but I'm not fully sour on: Liljegren showed improvement and I don't think he'd be particularly expensive Domi supposedly wants to be here, and was impactful Mo is a guy I love and don't want gone but I'm willing to grin and bear it under the right circumstances JT only has one year left on his massive deal, I'm okay with him staying for much cheaper afterwards if he's willing to stay for much cheaper afterwards Depending on what's available I don't think Sammy/Jones staying would be a disaster. They can play games and keep the team competitive. Not comfortable with either as a full time starter but I'm fine with either as a backup or a 1B. There are other goalies out there you can put in this role too so I'm not saying they *have to stay* I'm just saying I'm not particularly worried if they do they're fine depth regular season goalies and we needed depth regular season goaltending this year. If you can find improvements/equal value elsewhere then by all means go ahead but I already know if Sammy were to re-sign some segments of the fanbase are gonna panic and act like it's a bigger disaster than it actually is We never actually used Boucher in the way he's supposed to be used. The guy is defensively minded and I never did nor will I ever understand why they had him coach offense. If he sticks around as a defensive coach I don't care
Based on performance: Woll, Domi, Knies, Nylander, Matthews, Benoit, McCabe Based on practicality: Treliving, Lillijgren, Robertson, Tavares, Holmberg People I'd like back if possible: Dewar, Edmundson.
Anyone who brings the mentality of pulling the team forward with more grit and holding each other accountable. I would part with players who can’t play with a sense of determination and urgency. Examples of my untouchables,in no particular order: Matthews Reaves McCabe Domi Knies Holmberg Edmundson Benoit McMann I guess this is more of a list of keepers than untouchables.
34, 88, woll, knies, domi, McCabe, McMann. everyone else is expendable IMO.
only guy I don't trade no matter what is matthews. realistically though the core 4 + rielly all have nmcs so even if they would waive you're not getting any value. I'm also not going to shop knies, cowan, minten, or woll but they're definitely not untouchable.
From management? Brandon Pridham and Dr. Haley Wickenheiser OC. From the NHL players...Auston, Nylander, Mitch, Knies, McCabe, and Benoit. From the prospect pool...Easton Cowan.
Matthews,Nylander, Knies, Cowan, maybe Woll I don’t see any reason to trade McCabe, Benoit, McMann The rest there can be a conversation had or can be including in a deal to better/help the team.
McCabe, Knies, Benoit, McMann, Lyubushkin , Woll, Matthews, Nylander, Domi, Edmondson, Dewar. Not necessarily untouchables but the players I’d like to see on the team next season.
Wtf did dewar do? Would’ve rather seen Robertson in his place in game 7.
Coulda been a fucken hero on the breakaway but Leafs dont have guys in the bottom six who scored anything other than Kampf in a 5-1 loss. Nah, guys like dewar/gregor are interchangeable pieces.
He’s a 4th liner who plays with heart and physicality and he’s cheap. Every team needs a 4th line that they can trust and plays with energy. Robertson is a defensive liability, small and may never turn into a true scoring threat. Robertson has to play in the top six to be effective and I don’t see him playing there for the Leafs.
The Zamboni driver.
I don’t trust Treliving to remake this roster. I’d rather run it back with a few additions around the edges than have him take a clever to it. I saw how he used a fair amount of cap space last season and was unimpressed. He also bungled the Nylander negotiations leading to a significant overpay. Getting rid of him would be my first move. I don’t care about the optics. Throw as much money as you can at somebody like Tulsky and go from there.
Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Rielly.
You really want to run it back? Damn bru
Yup, I do.
You are one sick puppy.
Can’t get Marner out of town fast enough.. I’ll buy him a greyhound ticket myself
This is going to be controversial….but just Matthews. The caveat being that Marner, Nylander, Tavares, and Rielly have no moves, it’s going to be hard to find a taker for Kampf or Reaves, and I don’t know what it would take for me to trade Knies but I’m sure there’s a guy out there I’d want. That said. IF you can’t deal Marner because he doesn’t want to, you won’t be able to deal Nylander, Tavares or Rielly more than likely, it’s going to be difficult to find someone to take Kampf or Reaves, you want to keep McMann, Knies, Holmberg and Jarnkrok probably because they’re cheap and good. Robertson and Dewar are RFAs…….. and that’s 12 forwards. That’s the whole team. If you need to use McMann in a deal to get a top 4 dman, he’s gone. If the other team insists on Holmberg being added to a deal you need, you have to trade him too. If you can’t trade the core 4, you have to change the mix and improve the deficiencies and that will cost someone we don’t want to deal.
There will be very little change at any level. MLSE doesn’t like change. They like dollars. It’ll be run back. You can count on that.
https://preview.redd.it/2k1l95v49qyc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a6a8d6d2119a8c7f3816ec3e587d601fc2f8cfb1
Out the core Keep Matthews, Nylander, Reilly Trade Marner & Tavares hopefully for #1Dman or a top prospect that can become a #1
Untouchable …. Mathews and Nylander. I think it’s crazy to call anyone else an untouchable. I would pack Knies bag myself for a bonafide starting goalie or 1D