honestly, this is a good point. i stopped watching movie trailers and looking up ratings for the most part. if i had even a remote interest in something, not reading the "noise" around it has made it a far more interesting experience going into it blind instead of being a mark.
Blows my mind that Shanny had the final say in all the decisions but doesn’t get any media criticism.
Also; Boston strategized their defense around letting Marner be the leaf player with the puck. They knew he wasn’t going to drive the net or shoot. He is so easily for other teams to play against once the big boy hockey starts. It’s been 7 years of this.
“Kyle Dubas built this team wrong. He failed in his philosophy and it’s all his fault”
“Should we try a new philosophy?”
“Noooooo you can’t trade anyone you have to run it back!!!!!”
More "should we try a new philosophy?" Craig: "no, because sometimes, when players go somewhere else, they find success." I guess you get drafted in this league and retire on that team. Can't wait for this to be officially announced in the next CBA
This is all such revisionist bullshit. The boring real narrative the media choses to ignore because it isn't as fun was to fast track this rebuild of young players, by bringing in a stud veteran center with Tavares, lock it in, and have the cap keep going up by massive amounts and to build out the rest as the group coalesced. Right when all of that was supposed to start, a once in 100 year pandemic hit and fucked the idea....with years of flat cap and no room to keep developed performing players like Hyman (never in 10000 years would he be like the oilers but a good example none the less) or really sign more other than prove it guys...after all of that is when it really becomes Dubas and Shanny bullshit, and somewhere in there Dubas wanted to be rational and no longer run it back which Shanny continued to block for a reason that is in my opinion to sell 10 year olds jerseys based on how certain players "focus grouped". Dubas basically works out a deal to leave because fuck that noise or "give me this clowns job". He gets shit canned and here we are again, no Dubas, still Shanny and the same plan from 10 years ago.
The point you made about selling jerseys really resonates with me.
I’ve been wondering about if the reason we’re still going to continue with this core and Marner specifically next season is because of the fanatics deal kicking in and ownership wanting to capitalize on all that new merch that’s going to sell.
This guy gets it.
Hockey media ignores the real story because it is not sensational enough for their listeners.
They also get marching orders from the league and team. They are soft on players, and don't really touch topics like the cap, taxes, officiating, suspensions, etc.
Then Dubas has to lock in some combination of Matthews, Marner and Nylander to 8 year deals paying the premium he did. He could’ve bridged and kicked the can down the road, with them being underpaid early (Point). He could’ve went long term and tried to have a cap advantage late in the contracts (Draisaitl, McDavid). He could’ve made a Willy, Matthews, Marner decision and had some room to play with if they wouldn’t budge.
He did none of the above and all three got above market value contracts for 5-6 years, Nylander never was ready to go in the last year of Marner and Matthews ELC’s, then you had five years where, at best, Marner and Matthews were fairly paid.
He had RFA guys and just caved, while handing out a big money seven year deal to a guy that was always expected to be declining by the end of it. And you end up with a team where you pay 4 players half your cap, but there’s no way to cobble three decent lines out of them.
That’s not revisionist history. That’s a team set up for regular season success every year but never really putting themselves in position to have anyone underpaid compared to their competitors.
I think this is a great comment and like 99% correct. I'm not as confident as you in thinking Dubas didn't want to run it back (I think it was money and power motivated until we see evidence, not based on a nixed trade), but other than that this comment really articulates my thoughts well.
It's been heavily circulated Dubas wanted to move Marner maybe even as far back as after the Montreal series. Shanny blocked it and that is when the drift started to the point where they wouldn't even be in the same room anymore (this has been pretty much confirmed). You are correct though it's never been confirmed though Dubas did intend to trade Marner.
I've literally only ever seen that circulated by twitter randos (who liked Dubas and would reasonably subconsciously run defense for him) and the Steve Dangle Podcast who are not insiders who would know that. I've never seen anyone serious actually suggest that, I will trust it if I see it seriously confirmed though, I just don't get that read given the public pressers we saw tbh.
Oh yeah I genuinely don't care and still watch the show, but I hardly think CJ fell for it so that would definitely imply they throw out their own random shit on the show unsanctioned by CJ.
go back and look when the leafs signed contracts vs other teams. There no question who got screwed the hardest by it......the problem was not adapting afterwards.
This was of thinking is why Button will never work for an NHL team again. Florida is a perfect example of why you need to take the risk and trade Marner. They knew they weren’t going to win a cup with the way they were built and traded their highest scoring player after winning the presidents trophy
To be fair, Huberdeau had/has a lot more question marks than Marner and the return was undeniable in Tkachuk.
The good news is we have the guy that was getting Huberdeau.
I agree with Button to a point but I'm also on your side of things. I'd like to see what Berube can do with the core but ultimately I think the answer comes from making a big change.
In a way I would also like to see what Berube can do with them. Problem is if it still doesn’t work then we’re likely letting Marner walk for nothing. But, if he won’t take a trade anyways that may be the reality
well unless marner sign an extension the new team, leafs likely wouldn't really be any getting any real assets that would make a real difference for some time, he'll basically be a 1 year rental for any team which most teams wouldn't bother doing.
I understand it’s inevitable that analysts will get things wrong here and there but it fascinates me how Craig Button can get almost everything wrong. Yet he and Dreger think they’re the most insightful, intelligent and interesting people in every conversation they’re part of.
Cool, so it's Dubas at fault. The roster construction is wrong and it's Kyle's fault, but according to Button they should keep the same roster?
So you don't "run Marner out of town," and you extend him. You're now paying 37-39 million to 3 forwards who haven't accomplished anything as a team. Individually, they're all great players, but you need cap space to balance out the weaknesses in the rest of the roster. Treliving made his choice last year when he extended Matthews and Nylander.
You let Tavares walk after next year. You're using at least half the cap savings for a new 2nd line center. I'd argue this team also needs a 3rd line center.
Gonna assume he places a lot of blame on the Tavares signing.
I 100% guarantee that signing was mandated by the top MLSE brass by any means necessary.
Stamkos being the biggest Ontario born UFA to hit the open market in his prime, ever? Walked out of the meeting with the Leafs and re-upped with the Lightning almost immediately.
They weren’t going to be embarrassed a second year in row when the “next best Ontario UFA to hit the market” came knocking for an interview.
- Button put future Hall of Famer, Martin St. Louis on waivers, who left the team and signed with the Tampa Bay Lightning as a free agent.
- Button also traded away promising young goaltender Jean-Sebastien Giguere to the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim in exchange for a second round pick in order to protect Fred Brathwaite in the 2000 NHL Expansion Draft.
- Button later traded Marc Savard to the Atlanta Thrashers for Ruslan Zainullin, who never played a game in the NHL.
There’s a reason why Button hasn’t worked for a NHL team in *any capacity* in 20 years.
I guess we should just never change the team then, and just let the players manage everything, since everyone has an opinion and no solution. Great insight. Easy way to just button that all up.
or you know surround them with better players (I know their cap hits make it hard)like an actual goalie that makes the big saves, a real top 4 defence group, depth guys actually potting a few in the playoffs. I said I'm okay with trading or keep Marner if there are deals out there, however everyone seems to be pointing to Marner as the scape goat here. Well it's not like it's the first time with this fan base, I get people are angry considering our playoff failures.
I think it's more that it's his turn to re-sign. He just happens to be the easiest one to move at this time. Plus he's been the worst playoff player of the top players.
Put those 2 points together, and he's the one that has to go.
Add in the fact that he's terrible in the media, and his dad is nuts, and this is the outcome.
Tavares has been the worst culprit of the entire group, funny Marner is actually the one with the most points out of the core 5 production wise. Outside Rielly besides this playoffs, none of the core group has had a dominant playoff run, but production wise, they haven't been outright terrible either. Leafs simply haven't had 1 or 2 guys who have stepped up in the playoffs when those guys aren't going. I look at Lundell/Rodriguez for Florida giving them some extra scoring punch outside core guys like Bennett, Reinhart, Barkov, Tkachuk. Reinhart had 16 points in 24 games, every Florida Panther player under a point per game, nobody on that team dominated individually, but collectively, they won and we didn't. If I was a player, I would actually act like how Marner acts, it's not like the media here is anyone friend, they're just here to sell headlines.
TBH most people care about recent production, and since their ELCs Marner has the worst PPG and by far the lowest goals of Nylander, Matthews, and Marner. Tavares has been the worst though, but that is to be expected given they signed him really only to be good for the first 4 years of their contracts.
Craig Button is the perfect example of why some people have to cash in on their experience as a GM for media because no team will hire them. It's always important to remember that the people with real value and insight get hired and paid by teams so their talent is kept private, while the others keep media jobs and give it to everybody.
PSA: you can link directly into a specific time of a youtube video so everyone doesn't have to scrub to the appropriate spot.
Here's a link to the directly relevant section: [https://youtu.be/RqOjKna88wI?si=aOXeDa4kJYDGAalw&t=2156](https://youtu.be/RqOjKna88wI?si=aOXeDa4kJYDGAalw&t=2156)
(you're welcome)
Blaming Dubas is hilarious. The fault is on our top guys for not reaching new levels. We don’t score enough in the playoffs and you can blame depth, but everyone follows the leaders.
Yes, the fault is on our top guys for not carrying the mess of a roster Dubas built around them. It's up to them to make his acquisitions more talented.
Blaming dubas is common sense, take a look at what he did....
That’s hilarious. What a brutal take. He built our defence. Maybe he should have invested in a real goalie. He tried skill based depth and transitioned to character based depth. Everything that happened resulted in not scoring enough.
Sure, our defence and goaltending could have been better. Our scoring dried up. That big dogs didn’t perform.
Dubas isn’t blameless. His contract negotiation skills are terrible.
Are you daft mate?
Yes, our goaltending and defense could have been better. Everything that happened resulted in not scoring enough.
What exactly do you think his job was?
We had a top 10 goalie that we played into the ground because Dubas spent years trying (and failing) to find a BACKUP goalie, eventually becoming so desperate that he paid a 2nd + Trevor Moore (currently a top 6 winger) for a BACKUP goalie who's not even nhl caliber 3 years later.
He was so pleased with himself that he let andersen walk for nothing after openly criticizing him in front of HBO cameras for milking an injury, one that he was never allowed to properly heal.
You're right though, only mrazek and Matt murray were available and wanted to come here. Imagine calling me oblivious and accusing me of parroting stupidity, HA.
The only reason you or anyone defends dubas is because they aligned with his ass-backwards philosophy toward team building. You were all wrong and the proof is in the pudding.
DELUSIONAL
Is that a joke? He was injured the season he played 24 games because we ran him into the ground. You realize that's a shitload of games in the seasons prior right?
Sorry that should have said 60 games not 69 games. I’m saying he started more games the previous seasons when Dubas wasn’t the GM so how did him playing fewer games when Dubas was GM make it running him into the ground?
That should have made finding a competent backup a clear priority when dubas took over and it took him him 2 years to finally address that position, and it was really only after they had tried bringing andersen back early from his injury (which seemingly reaggravated it).
You can see all the drama unfold in real-time on HBO if you don't believe me, as dubas wanted to make sure this farce was free to watch for all leaf fans.
After letting andersen walk and replacing him with mrazek, the Leafs would go on to have the 28th ranked goaltending in the league the following season, before we had to trade out of the 1st round to dump mrazek's contract.
Boy wonder! Praise be!
Because they won a single game past the first round during his five year stint. Most people still consider the postseason the mark of success, basically everyone aside from dubas fans trying to cope with his laughable inability to build a playoff roster.
What does “building a playoff roster” mean and how do you know whether you’ve built one until you play the playoffs? Wouldn’t being one of the top teams in the league suggest you’d expect to do well in the playoffs too? Nobody ever seems to be able to define what building a playoff roster actually means other than a team that wins is therefore a playoff roster.
It means building a roster that can e successful in the playoffs. You know when you're successful in the playoffs, something Dubas had 5 shots at.
To answer your question, no it would not. You can continue to be dismissive of people who talk about building from the net out, or being strong down the middle, or adding "truculence" etc., only to wonder why investing so much in small skill on the wings continued to burn us, as had always been the criticism of Dubas.
We know what works in the playoffs, eventually it's up to you to piece it together for yourself. It's clear you're not there yet...
>What does “building a playoff roster” mean and how do you know whether you’ve built one until you play the playoffs?
He saw them play in the playoffs for like 4 years and made no significant changes to the roster, so yes he saw them under perform and didn't change anything, that is bad management.
>Wouldn’t being one of the top teams in the league suggest you’d expect to do well in the playoffs too?
Only if you have no data points of how they play in the playoffs, which he did per above.
>Nobody ever seems to be able to define what building a playoff roster actually means other than a team that wins is therefore a playoff roster.
"You can't criticize the pilot who is crashing the plane because you don't know how to pilot a plane"
I mean, im fine giving him the last year. Maybe Berube can get him going. If his contract demands are dumb, move on next offseason. Some players will be watching to see if Toronto has extra cap next offseason. I doubt we wont find a good player to sign.
Here's my theory:
I believe it was Shanahan or Babcock that said they want to make it safe for players in Toronto. I think Dubas took that philosophy and ran wild with it. He made it so safe that accountability went out the window. Now it's a backwards effort to clean it up.
Berube is a good first step in installing accountability. They tried to do that with Babcock but it turns out that Babcock was a complete sociopath. Then they did a u turn with Keefe and that didn't work. If Marner stays I just hope Berube will treat him just like any player.
I don't really disagree with this take. I think the biggest error was actually signing Tavares to the contract they did (though that is 100% hindsight. I was as excited as everyone else when he signed). It ended up setting the internal pay rates at a place the team couldn't handle, and while he lived up to the contract the first couple years, he definitely hasn't been the last couple (and almost certainly won't this coming season).
Nope everything is final here. No one has any real solutions to the issue other than trading Mitch cuz he’s clearly what’s been holding us back all these years. Just him and him alone. I mean we would’ve been sooooo much better without our leading playoff point getter but hey what do I know?
My enjoyment of hockey grew when I stopped listening to this crap
honestly, this is a good point. i stopped watching movie trailers and looking up ratings for the most part. if i had even a remote interest in something, not reading the "noise" around it has made it a far more interesting experience going into it blind instead of being a mark.
Blows my mind that Shanny had the final say in all the decisions but doesn’t get any media criticism. Also; Boston strategized their defense around letting Marner be the leaf player with the puck. They knew he wasn’t going to drive the net or shoot. He is so easily for other teams to play against once the big boy hockey starts. It’s been 7 years of this.
Because the media knows the final say doesn't mean only say. Dubas: I'm doing this Shanny: k
So first shanny is what you’re saying. I agree.
Can you rephrase?
“Kyle Dubas built this team wrong. He failed in his philosophy and it’s all his fault” “Should we try a new philosophy?” “Noooooo you can’t trade anyone you have to run it back!!!!!”
More "should we try a new philosophy?" Craig: "no, because sometimes, when players go somewhere else, they find success." I guess you get drafted in this league and retire on that team. Can't wait for this to be officially announced in the next CBA
This is all such revisionist bullshit. The boring real narrative the media choses to ignore because it isn't as fun was to fast track this rebuild of young players, by bringing in a stud veteran center with Tavares, lock it in, and have the cap keep going up by massive amounts and to build out the rest as the group coalesced. Right when all of that was supposed to start, a once in 100 year pandemic hit and fucked the idea....with years of flat cap and no room to keep developed performing players like Hyman (never in 10000 years would he be like the oilers but a good example none the less) or really sign more other than prove it guys...after all of that is when it really becomes Dubas and Shanny bullshit, and somewhere in there Dubas wanted to be rational and no longer run it back which Shanny continued to block for a reason that is in my opinion to sell 10 year olds jerseys based on how certain players "focus grouped". Dubas basically works out a deal to leave because fuck that noise or "give me this clowns job". He gets shit canned and here we are again, no Dubas, still Shanny and the same plan from 10 years ago.
The point you made about selling jerseys really resonates with me. I’ve been wondering about if the reason we’re still going to continue with this core and Marner specifically next season is because of the fanatics deal kicking in and ownership wanting to capitalize on all that new merch that’s going to sell.
Shanny has widely been known to have made A LOT more profit from game and online merch sales.....shit a board room loves.
This guy gets it. Hockey media ignores the real story because it is not sensational enough for their listeners. They also get marching orders from the league and team. They are soft on players, and don't really touch topics like the cap, taxes, officiating, suspensions, etc.
Then Dubas has to lock in some combination of Matthews, Marner and Nylander to 8 year deals paying the premium he did. He could’ve bridged and kicked the can down the road, with them being underpaid early (Point). He could’ve went long term and tried to have a cap advantage late in the contracts (Draisaitl, McDavid). He could’ve made a Willy, Matthews, Marner decision and had some room to play with if they wouldn’t budge. He did none of the above and all three got above market value contracts for 5-6 years, Nylander never was ready to go in the last year of Marner and Matthews ELC’s, then you had five years where, at best, Marner and Matthews were fairly paid. He had RFA guys and just caved, while handing out a big money seven year deal to a guy that was always expected to be declining by the end of it. And you end up with a team where you pay 4 players half your cap, but there’s no way to cobble three decent lines out of them. That’s not revisionist history. That’s a team set up for regular season success every year but never really putting themselves in position to have anyone underpaid compared to their competitors.
I think this is a great comment and like 99% correct. I'm not as confident as you in thinking Dubas didn't want to run it back (I think it was money and power motivated until we see evidence, not based on a nixed trade), but other than that this comment really articulates my thoughts well.
It's been heavily circulated Dubas wanted to move Marner maybe even as far back as after the Montreal series. Shanny blocked it and that is when the drift started to the point where they wouldn't even be in the same room anymore (this has been pretty much confirmed). You are correct though it's never been confirmed though Dubas did intend to trade Marner.
I've literally only ever seen that circulated by twitter randos (who liked Dubas and would reasonably subconsciously run defense for him) and the Steve Dangle Podcast who are not insiders who would know that. I've never seen anyone serious actually suggest that, I will trust it if I see it seriously confirmed though, I just don't get that read given the public pressers we saw tbh.
Anything from Dangle pod is coming from Johnson who is very inside.
Except it isn't given the recent 3 on 3 league debacle. Also why wouldn't CJ just say it on his show?
Omg lol 😂 the guy got got 1 time.
Oh yeah I genuinely don't care and still watch the show, but I hardly think CJ fell for it so that would definitely imply they throw out their own random shit on the show unsanctioned by CJ.
Other teams were dealing with COVID. Leafs have had four years to figure that out. Your Shanny and Dubas comments are speculation at best
go back and look when the leafs signed contracts vs other teams. There no question who got screwed the hardest by it......the problem was not adapting afterwards.
Tavares was a brain dead move regardless of a rising cap or not imo That is the deal that screwed this team
Button throws so much at the wall and hopes something sticks. I can't believe he was ever a GM
He’s such a dildo it’s hilarious. If he had any clue he’d still be working with a team not talking out his ass on TSN
I'm not even clicking on this video. Craig Button has zero credibility. I'm amazed this guy's opinion is still sought after.
Yeah but Dubas is gone, Craig. You can't fix him
Craig Button is the voice of facebook uncles.
This was of thinking is why Button will never work for an NHL team again. Florida is a perfect example of why you need to take the risk and trade Marner. They knew they weren’t going to win a cup with the way they were built and traded their highest scoring player after winning the presidents trophy
To be fair, Huberdeau had/has a lot more question marks than Marner and the return was undeniable in Tkachuk. The good news is we have the guy that was getting Huberdeau.
> The good news is we have the guy that was getting Huberdeau. Yay....
I agree with Button to a point but I'm also on your side of things. I'd like to see what Berube can do with the core but ultimately I think the answer comes from making a big change.
In a way I would also like to see what Berube can do with them. Problem is if it still doesn’t work then we’re likely letting Marner walk for nothing. But, if he won’t take a trade anyways that may be the reality
If it works, it works. If he walks, oh well? Not the best asset management but that's part of the risk.
well unless marner sign an extension the new team, leafs likely wouldn't really be any getting any real assets that would make a real difference for some time, he'll basically be a 1 year rental for any team which most teams wouldn't bother doing.
Button is one of those weird media people with a Dubas obsession. They’ll still be blaming him in 10 years for everything.
“My wife left me because Dubas!” > - Craig
Can you imagine being married to Craig Button? Jesus fucking christ
I understand it’s inevitable that analysts will get things wrong here and there but it fascinates me how Craig Button can get almost everything wrong. Yet he and Dreger think they’re the most insightful, intelligent and interesting people in every conversation they’re part of.
Fuck off Craig
It's absurd. What a weird take.
Cool, so it's Dubas at fault. The roster construction is wrong and it's Kyle's fault, but according to Button they should keep the same roster? So you don't "run Marner out of town," and you extend him. You're now paying 37-39 million to 3 forwards who haven't accomplished anything as a team. Individually, they're all great players, but you need cap space to balance out the weaknesses in the rest of the roster. Treliving made his choice last year when he extended Matthews and Nylander. You let Tavares walk after next year. You're using at least half the cap savings for a new 2nd line center. I'd argue this team also needs a 3rd line center.
Gonna assume he places a lot of blame on the Tavares signing. I 100% guarantee that signing was mandated by the top MLSE brass by any means necessary. Stamkos being the biggest Ontario born UFA to hit the open market in his prime, ever? Walked out of the meeting with the Leafs and re-upped with the Lightning almost immediately. They weren’t going to be embarrassed a second year in row when the “next best Ontario UFA to hit the market” came knocking for an interview.
Yeah but Dubas is gone, Craig. You can't fix him
This is the guy who put Martin St. Louis on waivers right? Saying that you can't just dump players?
- Button put future Hall of Famer, Martin St. Louis on waivers, who left the team and signed with the Tampa Bay Lightning as a free agent. - Button also traded away promising young goaltender Jean-Sebastien Giguere to the Mighty Ducks of Anaheim in exchange for a second round pick in order to protect Fred Brathwaite in the 2000 NHL Expansion Draft. - Button later traded Marc Savard to the Atlanta Thrashers for Ruslan Zainullin, who never played a game in the NHL. There’s a reason why Button hasn’t worked for a NHL team in *any capacity* in 20 years.
Yet he’s getting paid to do what you’re doing here.
Exactly.
I guess we should just never change the team then, and just let the players manage everything, since everyone has an opinion and no solution. Great insight. Easy way to just button that all up.
or you know surround them with better players (I know their cap hits make it hard)like an actual goalie that makes the big saves, a real top 4 defence group, depth guys actually potting a few in the playoffs. I said I'm okay with trading or keep Marner if there are deals out there, however everyone seems to be pointing to Marner as the scape goat here. Well it's not like it's the first time with this fan base, I get people are angry considering our playoff failures.
I think it's more that it's his turn to re-sign. He just happens to be the easiest one to move at this time. Plus he's been the worst playoff player of the top players. Put those 2 points together, and he's the one that has to go. Add in the fact that he's terrible in the media, and his dad is nuts, and this is the outcome.
Tavares has been the worst culprit of the entire group, funny Marner is actually the one with the most points out of the core 5 production wise. Outside Rielly besides this playoffs, none of the core group has had a dominant playoff run, but production wise, they haven't been outright terrible either. Leafs simply haven't had 1 or 2 guys who have stepped up in the playoffs when those guys aren't going. I look at Lundell/Rodriguez for Florida giving them some extra scoring punch outside core guys like Bennett, Reinhart, Barkov, Tkachuk. Reinhart had 16 points in 24 games, every Florida Panther player under a point per game, nobody on that team dominated individually, but collectively, they won and we didn't. If I was a player, I would actually act like how Marner acts, it's not like the media here is anyone friend, they're just here to sell headlines.
TBH most people care about recent production, and since their ELCs Marner has the worst PPG and by far the lowest goals of Nylander, Matthews, and Marner. Tavares has been the worst though, but that is to be expected given they signed him really only to be good for the first 4 years of their contracts.
Craig Button is the perfect example of why some people have to cash in on their experience as a GM for media because no team will hire them. It's always important to remember that the people with real value and insight get hired and paid by teams so their talent is kept private, while the others keep media jobs and give it to everybody.
PSA: you can link directly into a specific time of a youtube video so everyone doesn't have to scrub to the appropriate spot. Here's a link to the directly relevant section: [https://youtu.be/RqOjKna88wI?si=aOXeDa4kJYDGAalw&t=2156](https://youtu.be/RqOjKna88wI?si=aOXeDa4kJYDGAalw&t=2156) (you're welcome)
thank you!
He's right though
Trust me, we know they stem from Dubas.
Blaming Dubas is hilarious. The fault is on our top guys for not reaching new levels. We don’t score enough in the playoffs and you can blame depth, but everyone follows the leaders.
Yes, the fault is on our top guys for not carrying the mess of a roster Dubas built around them. It's up to them to make his acquisitions more talented. Blaming dubas is common sense, take a look at what he did....
That’s hilarious. What a brutal take. He built our defence. Maybe he should have invested in a real goalie. He tried skill based depth and transitioned to character based depth. Everything that happened resulted in not scoring enough. Sure, our defence and goaltending could have been better. Our scoring dried up. That big dogs didn’t perform. Dubas isn’t blameless. His contract negotiation skills are terrible.
Are you daft mate? Yes, our goaltending and defense could have been better. Everything that happened resulted in not scoring enough. What exactly do you think his job was?
Which goalie was available AND wanted to come here? You are so oblivious. Keep parroting stupidity. Wah Dubas did this.
We had a top 10 goalie that we played into the ground because Dubas spent years trying (and failing) to find a BACKUP goalie, eventually becoming so desperate that he paid a 2nd + Trevor Moore (currently a top 6 winger) for a BACKUP goalie who's not even nhl caliber 3 years later. He was so pleased with himself that he let andersen walk for nothing after openly criticizing him in front of HBO cameras for milking an injury, one that he was never allowed to properly heal. You're right though, only mrazek and Matt murray were available and wanted to come here. Imagine calling me oblivious and accusing me of parroting stupidity, HA. The only reason you or anyone defends dubas is because they aligned with his ass-backwards philosophy toward team building. You were all wrong and the proof is in the pudding. DELUSIONAL
Under Dubas, Andersen played 69, 52 and 24 games. He had started 66 the previous two seasons each. How did he run him into the ground?
Is that a joke? He was injured the season he played 24 games because we ran him into the ground. You realize that's a shitload of games in the seasons prior right?
Sorry that should have said 60 games not 69 games. I’m saying he started more games the previous seasons when Dubas wasn’t the GM so how did him playing fewer games when Dubas was GM make it running him into the ground?
That should have made finding a competent backup a clear priority when dubas took over and it took him him 2 years to finally address that position, and it was really only after they had tried bringing andersen back early from his injury (which seemingly reaggravated it). You can see all the drama unfold in real-time on HBO if you don't believe me, as dubas wanted to make sure this farce was free to watch for all leaf fans. After letting andersen walk and replacing him with mrazek, the Leafs would go on to have the 28th ranked goaltending in the league the following season, before we had to trade out of the 1st round to dump mrazek's contract. Boy wonder! Praise be!
How was it a mess of a roster if they were finishing top 5 in the league?
Because they won a single game past the first round during his five year stint. Most people still consider the postseason the mark of success, basically everyone aside from dubas fans trying to cope with his laughable inability to build a playoff roster.
What does “building a playoff roster” mean and how do you know whether you’ve built one until you play the playoffs? Wouldn’t being one of the top teams in the league suggest you’d expect to do well in the playoffs too? Nobody ever seems to be able to define what building a playoff roster actually means other than a team that wins is therefore a playoff roster.
It means building a roster that can e successful in the playoffs. You know when you're successful in the playoffs, something Dubas had 5 shots at. To answer your question, no it would not. You can continue to be dismissive of people who talk about building from the net out, or being strong down the middle, or adding "truculence" etc., only to wonder why investing so much in small skill on the wings continued to burn us, as had always been the criticism of Dubas. We know what works in the playoffs, eventually it's up to you to piece it together for yourself. It's clear you're not there yet...
>What does “building a playoff roster” mean and how do you know whether you’ve built one until you play the playoffs? He saw them play in the playoffs for like 4 years and made no significant changes to the roster, so yes he saw them under perform and didn't change anything, that is bad management. >Wouldn’t being one of the top teams in the league suggest you’d expect to do well in the playoffs too? Only if you have no data points of how they play in the playoffs, which he did per above. >Nobody ever seems to be able to define what building a playoff roster actually means other than a team that wins is therefore a playoff roster. "You can't criticize the pilot who is crashing the plane because you don't know how to pilot a plane"
Craig Button is getting worse every week
I mean, im fine giving him the last year. Maybe Berube can get him going. If his contract demands are dumb, move on next offseason. Some players will be watching to see if Toronto has extra cap next offseason. I doubt we wont find a good player to sign.
Here's my theory: I believe it was Shanahan or Babcock that said they want to make it safe for players in Toronto. I think Dubas took that philosophy and ran wild with it. He made it so safe that accountability went out the window. Now it's a backwards effort to clean it up.
Berube is a good first step in installing accountability. They tried to do that with Babcock but it turns out that Babcock was a complete sociopath. Then they did a u turn with Keefe and that didn't work. If Marner stays I just hope Berube will treat him just like any player.
Holy fuck this guy. It’s all on Dubas for building this roster……that we should quadruple down on and keep? Jesus Christ what a moron.
Holy fuck shanny, get someone better than button to spew your propaganda. Can't even get that right
Glad to see most commenters aren't buying this BS
I don't really disagree with this take. I think the biggest error was actually signing Tavares to the contract they did (though that is 100% hindsight. I was as excited as everyone else when he signed). It ended up setting the internal pay rates at a place the team couldn't handle, and while he lived up to the contract the first couple years, he definitely hasn't been the last couple (and almost certainly won't this coming season).
Button says keep him, than the only logical option is to trade him.
Oh this thread will be fuuuuuuuuuuun.
Bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see how it plays out.
I think button is right on this one. The fanbase needs to simmer down and remember good times Mitch.
Nope everything is final here. No one has any real solutions to the issue other than trading Mitch cuz he’s clearly what’s been holding us back all these years. Just him and him alone. I mean we would’ve been sooooo much better without our leading playoff point getter but hey what do I know?