I love Jak. He's one of my highest WR heroes.
The reason I take fire is simply because it's what enables Jakiro's pushing, and pushing wins games. Liquid frost is great for making him a team fighter, but that's already a strength of the hero. You're essentially asking do I want Jak to fill multiple niches, or do I want to go all in on the team fights capabilities?
And, of course, objectives win games, not kills. Extra tower damage is rare in Dota, so liquid fire is particularly strong because of how rare that is. I do like liquid frost. It's a cool ability. But you lose a lot without liquid fire.
A key thing to note is that while tower damaging abilities are rare, tower attack speed slows are BEYOND rare. Iirc jakiro's is literally the only one?
Lycan with 2nd facet is the easiest hero in the game. Mash Q and W on cooldown, passive gives you crazy damage and regen, and ult gives you haste and crits. Just build stats and click on people lol
"Snapfire's 3rd skill reduces attack speed" is what he said. That is the context. So ummmm... do YOU have reading comprehension skills? I don't see how you could ever interperet "snapfire's 3rd skill" as being her Q.
Liquid frost is likely overvalued, and also probably picked more by attempts at Core Jakiro, and as the "new toy" probably attracts the strictly inferior 1-1-3 or 2-0-3 build, undervaluing just how damn good dual breath is.
The damage is also overrated and in the one jakiro game i took frost i missed liquid fire for the push, AoE Attack slow and damage, and more reliable damage (frost is a waste if you're not following up throughout the duration).
>(frost is a waste if you're not following up throughout the duration).
This is completely untrue. Dual breath alone will have 8 damage instances in the 4s, which is 8 triggers of the extra damage, plus two instances for your own twin attack. So 10 instances, plus the initial damage.
* Level 1: 20 + 10 * 10 = 120 dmg
* Level 2: 30 + 15 * 10 = 180 dmg
* Level 3: 40 + 20 * 10 = 240 dmg
* Level 4: 50 + 25 * 10 = 300 dmg.
For reference, liquid fire deals 100/150/200/250 dmg at different levels. So if you cast dual breath on a target too, then you will ALWAYS deal more damage with liquid frost, AND the damage is dealt faster, AND if you land your stun, ult, or further attacks then the damage is amped further.
Liquid frost is the damage king for sure, especially in lane. Because you WILL get follow-up when you can hit someone with a 40% total slow at level 2 in lane.
Liquid frost is only the damage king if you follow it up with spells that cost mana. In other words, any liquid frost attack that is not followed up by a spell... is essentially a waste of that damage amp. Sure, your next right-click attack will hit slightly harder. But that extra damage is trivial compared to Liquid Fire's DoT.
You can still use it way more often though, because it doesn't push the wave. By the time that's not a concern, mana isn't a concern either so you'll always be using dual breath too.
> if you cast dual breath you will always deal more
~~I'm not 100% sure exactly how frost procs work (dual breath does damage more often than 1/s)~~ *(edit: ah nm it's a .5s interval, could have sworn it was .25 or .1)* regardless, by your own math, a 10 proc frost breath will do 20 or 30 more damage in lane than a liquid fire application (a bit more due to initial proc)
Liquid fire has an AoE, so we can conversely assume, say, hitting two opponents, which favors liquid fire.
More to the point though, again i think the main thing is valuing the move slow over the attack slow, and of course the wildcard of building damage on liquid fire.
Liquid fire also has a lower cooldown now.
Yes, frost breath will do higher overall single target damage, however, i think the damage is undertuned give the removal of the AoE and building effects.
There is a couple of reasons but the main ones are, in lane attack speed slow is stronger because you can stop them from denying creeps for a while. It can be used to damage towers and slow their attack speed which means if you have lane dominance you will also probably be able to break the tower they are hiding behind or be able to dive more safely. If you max liquid fire it has a cooldown of 4 seconds making it super consistent and potentially has more dps in it than in Jakiro's other skills. Its great for stacking camps as the attack speed slow makes you take almost no damage.
And I believe Jakiro also has a talent that boosts the attack speed slow by a lot.
If anything I've felt otherwise. Liquid Frost being single-target means I can fully commit to dish damage against heroes trying to cs, while Liquid Fire means I'm giving them the opportunity to safely farm under their own tower as the DoT on creeps + attack speed slow inevitably pushes the wave.
But they will loose the tower removing their safe ground. Not to mention that Liquid fire does a lot of damage. 60 magical dps is very high in the early game and you hit multiple targets.
It's not AoE, to me that's basically it. Frost can be better in lane with a opportune lane dominator like slark or jugg, but that's where the benefits end. Every time I tried it so far it felt very underwhelming and I had a much hard time at getting the bits and pieces of farm left out by my cores.
I would only take liquid frost over fire if a couple of key criteria were met in the draft phase.
1. My lane partner has early kill potential. I want a Jugg or an Ursa or someone who can actually make good use of the slow to secure a couple of early kills for lane advantage.
2. Someone else on my team has to have some sort of pushing power. Objectives win games, not kills. Kills just open up opportunities to take objectives so that should always be front of mind.
3. The enemy lane doesn't have a lot of counter push. The last thing you want is to be in a situation where the enemy laners are pushing your tower super early. Jakiro has potential to counter that super hard... unless he picks Liquid Frost.
liquid frost is better during laning and right after, by a large margin, but jakiro is already dominant in lane, so taking frost for it is not really all that useful.
Post laning stage, fire's tower push is really the only place where E is useful. Everything else is better solved by any of your other 3 spells.
tldr: the time window where frost is better is *very* narrow, and its at the part where jakiro is good anyway. If you feel like your lane is gonna be really hard and you *NEED* to win your lane, go frost, otherwise go fire.
Liquid Fire is better in the laning phase, as it enhances Jakiro's ability to harass and push -- at no manacost. Liquid Fire's DoT is much more of a deterrent than Liquid Frost's movespeed slow. Frost does give some damage amp as well, but that buff only applies to Jakiro's attacks.
The Liquid Frost damage amp applies to his spells as well. Someone else did the math, and Dual Breath + 1 AA with Frost always out-damages Fire. Even more when using Ult or more follow-up AAs.
But Frost has a lot less utility/push/tower damage, so it’s just overall worse. Fun though!
Liquid Frost + consecutive attacks actually do more damage than Liquid Fire + consecutive attacks ; Liquid Frost + Dual Breath also deals more damage than Liquid Fire + Dual Breath. Liquid Fire only outdamages if either you get two enemy heroes with same cast or you are considering a scenario where Jakiro will use a simple Liquid Fire and not attack afterwards.
I'd say frost is basically trying to make Jakiro a viable witch blade right clicker core. If you're gonna play Jakiro the way everybody plays, as a team-fighter support and pusher, fire is way better
I love Jak. He's one of my highest WR heroes. The reason I take fire is simply because it's what enables Jakiro's pushing, and pushing wins games. Liquid frost is great for making him a team fighter, but that's already a strength of the hero. You're essentially asking do I want Jak to fill multiple niches, or do I want to go all in on the team fights capabilities? And, of course, objectives win games, not kills. Extra tower damage is rare in Dota, so liquid fire is particularly strong because of how rare that is. I do like liquid frost. It's a cool ability. But you lose a lot without liquid fire.
A key thing to note is that while tower damaging abilities are rare, tower attack speed slows are BEYOND rare. Iirc jakiro's is literally the only one?
And with the -attack speed talent you can basically allow your whole team to shrug off a tier 3 glyph.
Lycan's wolves from shard can also slow attack speed of towers.
That's true, although that's a MUCH harder one to make use of since you can't control the shard wolves and you only get one every 30s.
Plus they need to make it all the way to the tower without being worn down by the enemy creeps
And you have to play lycan đź’€
Lycan with 2nd facet is the easiest hero in the game. Mash Q and W on cooldown, passive gives you crazy damage and regen, and ult gives you haste and crits. Just build stats and click on people lol
Literally easiest hero. Once you’ve pressed q and w you literally don’t have skills lol
Yea this is a big one with the talent it actually makes its so glyph doesn't kill the wave which gives you extra time to push before they respawn.
Does time zone work with towers
Yes, it is works with everything except the windwaker.
Didn’t snapfire’s 3rd skill do this or they changed it already?
Snapfire E reduces armor. It doesn't affect anyone else's attack speed besides the speed buff it gives to snap.
It does affect heroes' attack speed lol. But it doesn't affect towers
How does it affect their attack speed? That's not mentioned in the tooltip...
Scatterblast slows enemies attack speed, but it doesn't work on towersÂ
Scatterblast isn't snapfire's E...
yes but clearly in context that's what the guy you were responding to was referring to. do you have reading comprehension skills?
"Snapfire's 3rd skill reduces attack speed" is what he said. That is the context. So ummmm... do YOU have reading comprehension skills? I don't see how you could ever interperet "snapfire's 3rd skill" as being her Q.
Frost dragon knight has one now
DK new frost passive does it, but only if you're not in dragon form.
Didnt Aba's Curse of avernus also slightly slow tower atck speed?
No, it just speeds up the attack speed of teammates hitting it.
Marci ult
No, Lucan also has one on his wolves Its called cripple, -60 AS if I remember
RIP marci ult, she was god tier at taking towers and forcing reactions
This explains it well, thank you fellow jakiro spammer
Same reason why DK's corrosive facet is his best
The slow is better in like every way
Nah poison is easy the best. Frost is worst. Thays why fire and poison got nerfed in 7.36a
Id say they got nerfed because they also work better with dk 1 and 2 which are way more popular than 3
Except fire was buffed
Spot on! I also take liquid fire because of the pushing potential.
I vaguely remember reading ingame that liquid fire no longer affects buildings. It's why frost felt better.
Liquid fire does still affect buildings, but the bonus damage from shard does not.
You, sir, are correct. I was confusing it with the shard details :).
Liquid frost is likely overvalued, and also probably picked more by attempts at Core Jakiro, and as the "new toy" probably attracts the strictly inferior 1-1-3 or 2-0-3 build, undervaluing just how damn good dual breath is. The damage is also overrated and in the one jakiro game i took frost i missed liquid fire for the push, AoE Attack slow and damage, and more reliable damage (frost is a waste if you're not following up throughout the duration).
>(frost is a waste if you're not following up throughout the duration). This is completely untrue. Dual breath alone will have 8 damage instances in the 4s, which is 8 triggers of the extra damage, plus two instances for your own twin attack. So 10 instances, plus the initial damage. * Level 1: 20 + 10 * 10 = 120 dmg * Level 2: 30 + 15 * 10 = 180 dmg * Level 3: 40 + 20 * 10 = 240 dmg * Level 4: 50 + 25 * 10 = 300 dmg. For reference, liquid fire deals 100/150/200/250 dmg at different levels. So if you cast dual breath on a target too, then you will ALWAYS deal more damage with liquid frost, AND the damage is dealt faster, AND if you land your stun, ult, or further attacks then the damage is amped further. Liquid frost is the damage king for sure, especially in lane. Because you WILL get follow-up when you can hit someone with a 40% total slow at level 2 in lane.
Liquid frost is only the damage king if you follow it up with spells that cost mana. In other words, any liquid frost attack that is not followed up by a spell... is essentially a waste of that damage amp. Sure, your next right-click attack will hit slightly harder. But that extra damage is trivial compared to Liquid Fire's DoT.
You can still use it way more often though, because it doesn't push the wave. By the time that's not a concern, mana isn't a concern either so you'll always be using dual breath too.
> if you cast dual breath you will always deal more ~~I'm not 100% sure exactly how frost procs work (dual breath does damage more often than 1/s)~~ *(edit: ah nm it's a .5s interval, could have sworn it was .25 or .1)* regardless, by your own math, a 10 proc frost breath will do 20 or 30 more damage in lane than a liquid fire application (a bit more due to initial proc) Liquid fire has an AoE, so we can conversely assume, say, hitting two opponents, which favors liquid fire. More to the point though, again i think the main thing is valuing the move slow over the attack slow, and of course the wildcard of building damage on liquid fire. Liquid fire also has a lower cooldown now. Yes, frost breath will do higher overall single target damage, however, i think the damage is undertuned give the removal of the AoE and building effects.
It doesn’t hit buildings anymore
There is a couple of reasons but the main ones are, in lane attack speed slow is stronger because you can stop them from denying creeps for a while. It can be used to damage towers and slow their attack speed which means if you have lane dominance you will also probably be able to break the tower they are hiding behind or be able to dive more safely. If you max liquid fire it has a cooldown of 4 seconds making it super consistent and potentially has more dps in it than in Jakiro's other skills. Its great for stacking camps as the attack speed slow makes you take almost no damage. And I believe Jakiro also has a talent that boosts the attack speed slow by a lot.
If anything I've felt otherwise. Liquid Frost being single-target means I can fully commit to dish damage against heroes trying to cs, while Liquid Fire means I'm giving them the opportunity to safely farm under their own tower as the DoT on creeps + attack speed slow inevitably pushes the wave.
But they will loose the tower removing their safe ground. Not to mention that Liquid fire does a lot of damage. 60 magical dps is very high in the early game and you hit multiple targets.
liquid fire does aoe fire damage, it farms and pushes better. but i also like the frost, but its only good 1vs1 really
It's not AoE, to me that's basically it. Frost can be better in lane with a opportune lane dominator like slark or jugg, but that's where the benefits end. Every time I tried it so far it felt very underwhelming and I had a much hard time at getting the bits and pieces of farm left out by my cores.
I would only take liquid frost over fire if a couple of key criteria were met in the draft phase. 1. My lane partner has early kill potential. I want a Jugg or an Ursa or someone who can actually make good use of the slow to secure a couple of early kills for lane advantage. 2. Someone else on my team has to have some sort of pushing power. Objectives win games, not kills. Kills just open up opportunities to take objectives so that should always be front of mind. 3. The enemy lane doesn't have a lot of counter push. The last thing you want is to be in a situation where the enemy laners are pushing your tower super early. Jakiro has potential to counter that super hard... unless he picks Liquid Frost.
I disagree. If you can right click spam and spell spam on whoever is pushing, you’d stalemate at worst.
liquid frost is better during laning and right after, by a large margin, but jakiro is already dominant in lane, so taking frost for it is not really all that useful. Post laning stage, fire's tower push is really the only place where E is useful. Everything else is better solved by any of your other 3 spells. tldr: the time window where frost is better is *very* narrow, and its at the part where jakiro is good anyway. If you feel like your lane is gonna be really hard and you *NEED* to win your lane, go frost, otherwise go fire.
Isnt fire better anyway for laning since it serves as better trading tool with as slow?
Don't measure quality in the first two days of a huge patch, people are just trying shit right now
Liquid fire + 200 damage talent = 2 headed mega siege creep
Liquid frost is absurdly powerful in lane
Liquid Fire is better in the laning phase, as it enhances Jakiro's ability to harass and push -- at no manacost. Liquid Fire's DoT is much more of a deterrent than Liquid Frost's movespeed slow. Frost does give some damage amp as well, but that buff only applies to Jakiro's attacks.
The Liquid Frost damage amp applies to his spells as well. Someone else did the math, and Dual Breath + 1 AA with Frost always out-damages Fire. Even more when using Ult or more follow-up AAs. But Frost has a lot less utility/push/tower damage, so it’s just overall worse. Fun though!
probably because it just deals way less dmg
Liquid Frost + consecutive attacks actually do more damage than Liquid Fire + consecutive attacks ; Liquid Frost + Dual Breath also deals more damage than Liquid Fire + Dual Breath. Liquid Fire only outdamages if either you get two enemy heroes with same cast or you are considering a scenario where Jakiro will use a simple Liquid Fire and not attack afterwards.
Advantages from better level 1 trades not enough to offset the midgame pressure from melting their towers with liquid fire, basically
Liquid frost is a cool concept, but the numbers just don’t line up for it to compete with fire.
That attack speed slow is just so good at fucking up towers and carries without debuff immunity
Liquid frost feels crazy good to me in lane, I max it over first with dual breath and it dominates the lane
I'd say frost is basically trying to make Jakiro a viable witch blade right clicker core. If you're gonna play Jakiro the way everybody plays, as a team-fighter support and pusher, fire is way better
Bldg damage > slow