Do you have replays you want me to look at?
Im around the same MMR as you and play a lot of support. Atleast my battle report tells me i win 70% of my lanes, i just suck at everything else compared to that :D
Sometimes you just need to be on the same page as your carry, chill and farm or being aggressive and creating 2 vs 1 scenarios for you against the enemy offlaner or support if they are out of position. Balloon has a short video for that on youtube.
I play a lot with a guy who just started dota and doesnt even know how the heroes work he plays and i get him through the laning stage and sometimes even stomp lanes with just micromanaging him and telling him what spells to use. Maybe thats the solution for you.
It’s wild to me that this guy is above 6k, wants help on his laning and has not posted a replay
How tf do you think people; the vast majority of which are much lower mmr than you, are going to help you without a replay?
Support has less focus on technical skill and more macro skill. Understanding how the game is playing out, where your team should be, etc. I've found communication is pretty important - letting people know where you're going to ward and a general outline. Perhaps you're ahead and can take enemy tormentor into rosh. You notice heroes under vision on the other side of the map so perhaps you can make a play. Watch for your teammates timings on specific items or powerspikes for when you can make a smoke play.
The thing that enables a lot of these movements and macro game is good warding. Constantly check enemy support inventory for wards and where they might be on the map. Try to place your own wards in places where they won't be dewarded easily. Try to place obs only when you aren't going to be in vision, then double back so it's harder for them to read where you placed it. Don't exclusively put wards on the flying vision spots. It's only good in two cases - 1. when a fight is just about to break out and you get vision, or 2. if you're trying to control an area for an objective (pushing a tower, taking rosh, etc). IMO the bulk of the wards should be in non-obvious places and can scout enemy movements, give information, and help dictate the flow of the game in your favor better.
There are a couple of tricks to dewarding. If you have a hero that doesn't have a vision spell, use your courier to spot the flying vision ward spots. Know when you're going to ward and ship out a few sentries, then use your courier to check these spots while giving you a bigger range for checking wards.
Keep a smoke locked on the courier. If you carry it around in your inventory the enemy supports will be looking out for a smoke gank. You can activate the smoke from your courier when you're ready, or unlock it from the courier to use it.
Analyze the enemy warding patterns. Sometimes they're scrubs who just place it on flying vision spots each time. These are easy. Sometimes they like to specifically plant it on ramps. Sometimes they just put a sentry on the flying vision spot and put an obs right outside of that range. Sometimes they only place it in the "wierd spots" like in between the trees showing radiant T2 bot. Sometimes they like to put it just outside of where a sentry would hit on the flying vision ward spot. Sometimes they are just psychopaths and are incredibly hard to read
Also the enemy support choice will inform where they want to place wards. Treant protector loooves putting an obs right behind tower. It's easy for them to navigate and slip one right behind with tree walking. CM and AA usually like to put a sentry that can cover the flying vision spot, then put an obs right outside of that sentry's vision. If you have a slark on your team expect more lane wards, as it's harder for his passive to detect. Nyx loves to put an observer on the flying vision spot, but very deep in so it isn't dewarded as often.
Of course there are many many things to supporting, but IMO if you can control the vision better than your opponents you can dictate the game's direction better than your opponents too
As a support, what you crucially need is strategic planning.
The trick to be a good support is thinking ahead: How to create advantageous situations for you and your allied core over the enemy duo, given your understanding of how cores usually react?
If your core is a carry, that means he'd want to focus on scaling and farming over killing. So try to create situations where the carry can farm in peace. This include:
- Timing of aggression: A good aggression is when the carry doesn't have to commit too much to get a kill, a bad aggression is where the core loses too much resources (hp/mp) or farm potential (creep wave/exp). Remember that making the enemies unable to lane is 100 times better than doing everything to kill them then having to retreat after they respawn.
- Pulling creep wave to maintain lane equilibrium
- Manage small and medium pull camps
- Vision war: blocking camps and pulling creeps while preventing enemies to do so - and at the right moment - can give you full lane control.
- Control consumable resources (tango, clarity, mango, lotus etc...)
- Wisdom rune is always worth securing
You can watch my replays and see how I play the lane as a pos 5. I'm doing all of these things way better than the opposing pos 4, as a result, lane is mostly won.
[https://stratz.com/players/424414638](https://stratz.com/players/424414638)
7.5k support main here.
How about scaling after the laning stage? Do you pay attention to getting item progression and item timings? Stacking, correct rotations etc? Do you tend to die a lot? (Potential positioning issue).
Also you point out that carries underperform, dont be afraid to leave them a ward, ditch them and just go help dumpster the offlane
How would you go about improving positioning? I'm about 6k pos5 main. Usually end the game with about 10 deaths which I know is too many, but I feel with a lot of supports I play you have to be in close range to cast your spells which results in lots of deaths.
You have around 2 mins after you see everyone’s picks before the game actually starts; barring a big level 1 fight.
During this time you have to visualize how all the heroes will interact during the game, both in big team fights and in situations where you have to do something risky like warding or pushing out a wave
What’s the best place to be so that you don’t get burst by their back line jumper? What items will allow you to cast your spells/live?
Its all about playing with clock - and since best way to learn is to focus on one thing at a time, you can always make yourself a "mental note" and try every game to just divide early game for time stamps such as lotus pool, cart wave, power rune, wisdom rune and adjust laning accordingly
This might be out of date (I've played like 10 games in the past year), but playing so your timings. Doing this is hard af, but essentially its ensuring you're always playing around the strongest hero at the time and map timings is something you need to learn as a support. If your mid is about to hit 6 and has high kill threat, play around them. There's a wisdom rune coming up, try to setup a kill for one or secure your own. Your carry is hitting 6, rotate back to their lane and secure a kill with their ult. Just stuff like this will speed up your game and ensure you're never wasting time.
Now you know why nobody wants to play sup. I personally think play sup is very fun but in the end no matter if you win your lane or have great impact in the early and mid you still need your cores to win for you and nobody likes to depend on others to win and it’s frustrating. I’ve see ppl picking warlock very often, this hero can really have great impact in the lane and also win the game alone...
Most cores that try to play support have the same but opposite problem that supports have trying to play core.
LIkely your positioning isn't great. Positioning as a core is important, but not quite as important as a support. You're probably too aggressive. You try to do things that cores can do, but supports cannot (at least most of the time). There are tons of other things, but I would usually start there.
I think with some replays to share, that could help a lot to understand a bit better.
My favorite example of a pos 5 god to pay attention to is Miposhka. He really shows how important support is in high mmr, and how you ultimately control the flow of the entire game in this position. His replays are crazy; the game starts, and he is literally everywhere he can be to sneak in as much value across the map for his team as he possibly can. He’s constantly looking for plays in every lane, and any opportunity that arrises, he’ll normally go for, and they usually always result a positive outcome, which propel them into huge gold leads, and excellent vision all over the map. I’ve literally watched him die 10 times before 15 minutes, but its resulted in his cores getting kills, power/wisdom runes securing, enabling farm for fast timings on those big core items. You snowball the game more than you realize. Leaning into this is important, and I think once you’re at a point where you can execute all of these little things supports do, the more you can focus on your macro game. Hope this helps 👍
Believe it or not, Support need to be more aware and require more game knowledges than Core positions.
Especially a midlane player, you're the strongest man who's doing an one-on-one duel with the opponent and you need to do everything in your power to win the lane, that's all.
That's why most captain in proteam are pos 4/5. They have more time to evaluate things and making plans.
Also, you have to do all rotating shits beside winning the lane for your carry, that's a lot of work for a CM who barely afford boots.
Do you have replays you want me to look at? Im around the same MMR as you and play a lot of support. Atleast my battle report tells me i win 70% of my lanes, i just suck at everything else compared to that :D Sometimes you just need to be on the same page as your carry, chill and farm or being aggressive and creating 2 vs 1 scenarios for you against the enemy offlaner or support if they are out of position. Balloon has a short video for that on youtube. I play a lot with a guy who just started dota and doesnt even know how the heroes work he plays and i get him through the laning stage and sometimes even stomp lanes with just micromanaging him and telling him what spells to use. Maybe thats the solution for you.
It’s wild to me that this guy is above 6k, wants help on his laning and has not posted a replay How tf do you think people; the vast majority of which are much lower mmr than you, are going to help you without a replay?
That set them off on a wild goose chase haha, off i go - OP probably
[His Dotabuff](https://www.dotabuff.com/players/848982307)
Hey, I looked at his post history and this is [his Dotabuff](https://www.dotabuff.com/players/848982307) Feel like a stalker now.
Support has less focus on technical skill and more macro skill. Understanding how the game is playing out, where your team should be, etc. I've found communication is pretty important - letting people know where you're going to ward and a general outline. Perhaps you're ahead and can take enemy tormentor into rosh. You notice heroes under vision on the other side of the map so perhaps you can make a play. Watch for your teammates timings on specific items or powerspikes for when you can make a smoke play. The thing that enables a lot of these movements and macro game is good warding. Constantly check enemy support inventory for wards and where they might be on the map. Try to place your own wards in places where they won't be dewarded easily. Try to place obs only when you aren't going to be in vision, then double back so it's harder for them to read where you placed it. Don't exclusively put wards on the flying vision spots. It's only good in two cases - 1. when a fight is just about to break out and you get vision, or 2. if you're trying to control an area for an objective (pushing a tower, taking rosh, etc). IMO the bulk of the wards should be in non-obvious places and can scout enemy movements, give information, and help dictate the flow of the game in your favor better. There are a couple of tricks to dewarding. If you have a hero that doesn't have a vision spell, use your courier to spot the flying vision ward spots. Know when you're going to ward and ship out a few sentries, then use your courier to check these spots while giving you a bigger range for checking wards. Keep a smoke locked on the courier. If you carry it around in your inventory the enemy supports will be looking out for a smoke gank. You can activate the smoke from your courier when you're ready, or unlock it from the courier to use it. Analyze the enemy warding patterns. Sometimes they're scrubs who just place it on flying vision spots each time. These are easy. Sometimes they like to specifically plant it on ramps. Sometimes they just put a sentry on the flying vision spot and put an obs right outside of that range. Sometimes they only place it in the "wierd spots" like in between the trees showing radiant T2 bot. Sometimes they like to put it just outside of where a sentry would hit on the flying vision ward spot. Sometimes they are just psychopaths and are incredibly hard to read Also the enemy support choice will inform where they want to place wards. Treant protector loooves putting an obs right behind tower. It's easy for them to navigate and slip one right behind with tree walking. CM and AA usually like to put a sentry that can cover the flying vision spot, then put an obs right outside of that sentry's vision. If you have a slark on your team expect more lane wards, as it's harder for his passive to detect. Nyx loves to put an observer on the flying vision spot, but very deep in so it isn't dewarded as often. Of course there are many many things to supporting, but IMO if you can control the vision better than your opponents you can dictate the game's direction better than your opponents too
As a support, what you crucially need is strategic planning. The trick to be a good support is thinking ahead: How to create advantageous situations for you and your allied core over the enemy duo, given your understanding of how cores usually react? If your core is a carry, that means he'd want to focus on scaling and farming over killing. So try to create situations where the carry can farm in peace. This include: - Timing of aggression: A good aggression is when the carry doesn't have to commit too much to get a kill, a bad aggression is where the core loses too much resources (hp/mp) or farm potential (creep wave/exp). Remember that making the enemies unable to lane is 100 times better than doing everything to kill them then having to retreat after they respawn. - Pulling creep wave to maintain lane equilibrium - Manage small and medium pull camps - Vision war: blocking camps and pulling creeps while preventing enemies to do so - and at the right moment - can give you full lane control. - Control consumable resources (tango, clarity, mango, lotus etc...) - Wisdom rune is always worth securing You can watch my replays and see how I play the lane as a pos 5. I'm doing all of these things way better than the opposing pos 4, as a result, lane is mostly won. [https://stratz.com/players/424414638](https://stratz.com/players/424414638)
This is actually great advice, thank you man. I found [OP’s Dotabuff](https://www.dotabuff.com/players/848982307) if you want to have a gander.
7.5k support main here. How about scaling after the laning stage? Do you pay attention to getting item progression and item timings? Stacking, correct rotations etc? Do you tend to die a lot? (Potential positioning issue). Also you point out that carries underperform, dont be afraid to leave them a ward, ditch them and just go help dumpster the offlane
How would you go about improving positioning? I'm about 6k pos5 main. Usually end the game with about 10 deaths which I know is too many, but I feel with a lot of supports I play you have to be in close range to cast your spells which results in lots of deaths.
You have around 2 mins after you see everyone’s picks before the game actually starts; barring a big level 1 fight. During this time you have to visualize how all the heroes will interact during the game, both in big team fights and in situations where you have to do something risky like warding or pushing out a wave What’s the best place to be so that you don’t get burst by their back line jumper? What items will allow you to cast your spells/live?
Stacking is an issue for me yes. I can't balance between rune control, warding and stacking very well.
Its all about playing with clock - and since best way to learn is to focus on one thing at a time, you can always make yourself a "mental note" and try every game to just divide early game for time stamps such as lotus pool, cart wave, power rune, wisdom rune and adjust laning accordingly
Looking at the clock is a lot more important for supports than it is for cores
This might be out of date (I've played like 10 games in the past year), but playing so your timings. Doing this is hard af, but essentially its ensuring you're always playing around the strongest hero at the time and map timings is something you need to learn as a support. If your mid is about to hit 6 and has high kill threat, play around them. There's a wisdom rune coming up, try to setup a kill for one or secure your own. Your carry is hitting 6, rotate back to their lane and secure a kill with their ult. Just stuff like this will speed up your game and ensure you're never wasting time.
Now you know why nobody wants to play sup. I personally think play sup is very fun but in the end no matter if you win your lane or have great impact in the early and mid you still need your cores to win for you and nobody likes to depend on others to win and it’s frustrating. I’ve see ppl picking warlock very often, this hero can really have great impact in the lane and also win the game alone...
xd carries r actually bad in 6k haha
Most cores that try to play support have the same but opposite problem that supports have trying to play core. LIkely your positioning isn't great. Positioning as a core is important, but not quite as important as a support. You're probably too aggressive. You try to do things that cores can do, but supports cannot (at least most of the time). There are tons of other things, but I would usually start there.
I think with some replays to share, that could help a lot to understand a bit better. My favorite example of a pos 5 god to pay attention to is Miposhka. He really shows how important support is in high mmr, and how you ultimately control the flow of the entire game in this position. His replays are crazy; the game starts, and he is literally everywhere he can be to sneak in as much value across the map for his team as he possibly can. He’s constantly looking for plays in every lane, and any opportunity that arrises, he’ll normally go for, and they usually always result a positive outcome, which propel them into huge gold leads, and excellent vision all over the map. I’ve literally watched him die 10 times before 15 minutes, but its resulted in his cores getting kills, power/wisdom runes securing, enabling farm for fast timings on those big core items. You snowball the game more than you realize. Leaning into this is important, and I think once you’re at a point where you can execute all of these little things supports do, the more you can focus on your macro game. Hope this helps 👍
Believe it or not, Support need to be more aware and require more game knowledges than Core positions. Especially a midlane player, you're the strongest man who's doing an one-on-one duel with the opponent and you need to do everything in your power to win the lane, that's all. That's why most captain in proteam are pos 4/5. They have more time to evaluate things and making plans. Also, you have to do all rotating shits beside winning the lane for your carry, that's a lot of work for a CM who barely afford boots.
pay more attention to creeps. Try to stun when creeps will hit enemies in lane
Wards