Report it right away, especially with all the injuries, that's assault cause bodily harm. Fuck that guy.
Edit: also, of course you can defend yourself. The only time it'd be problematic is if you defended yourself and used excessive force to end the assault. (eg, if he punched you and then you kicked him in the head and continued to kick him while he lay unconscious on the ground).
I can't help but get the feeling that Canada's so called self defense laws mean you have to accept getting beat up in order to defend yourself.
I have to wait to be beat up in a certain way in order to use that form of defense. If the guy's bigger than me, my punch won't do much, and in the meantime he's punching my face in, possibly breaking bones, possibly blinding an eye, possibly getting an internal brain hemorrhage.
In the meantime, if I could kick him in the nuts then I stand a good chance of getting away fast and staying safe and healthy.
That doesn't explain why. There's a comment that says you're only gonna have issues with self defense if you use excessive force, and gives the example if the guy punches you and you kick him.
I have a brain injury so maybe I'm not understanding that correctly, but I have a hard time understanding is it means something other than what it says.
Is that statement not true? I want to understand, but a lot of people just talk down to me, suggesting I'm stupid.
It said to kick him in the head and continue to kick him while he's unconscious. You are allowed to protect yourself, you are not allowed to disarm a person and then continue to beat the person. Excessive force is when you go above and beyond to disarm and harm another person. Example. If a person punches you in the arm, you cannot hit them in the head with a baseball bat.
If you get attacked you can kick the person, but you shouldn't kick them in the groin because it can cause serious complications and possibly death.
Yeah but again an ordinary kick from a small person will not do much to a bigger person, especially aggressive.
I bet if I kicked him in the shin I'd just make him more angry and aggressive.
You can kick an attacker in the groin to get away. Even if it incidentally causes him to have to get a testicle removed. If you kick him in the groin, then slam his head off the concrete 6 or 7 times, you’ll get in trouble for the head slamming thing.
I'm not violent at all, so believe me running is my only goal. Not that I'm a pacifist, but I'm not going to win any fight.
I was just trying to find out how I'd have the best chance to get away. That's where my groin idea came from. Trust me I'm getting out of there without even waiting to see if it had any effect.
Thank you for helping me get this straight in my head. It does mean a lot. 😊
In this case, “equal” force is different. If a 6’5 300lbs man attacks a little old lady, her punches are not “equal” to his punches, so she is able to use greater force in attempt to equalize forces, if that makes any sense.
She cannot defend herself with a gun in this case, but she could very well use a blunt object in her defence because she is so far outmatched. Using a blunt object can count as “equal force” in this case
The force used needs to be "reasonable", not "equal". You can absolutely use more force against someone than they used against you to defend yourself, that's usually how you win a fight. It doesn't mean you can shoot someone for slapping you though, that wouldn't be reasonable.
This equal force myth is nonsense. The force used has to be reasonable in the circumstances. There's no "matching up" of weapons vs. size or whatever to "equalize" force. Those are all just a few of the many factors to help determine if the action was reasonable. I don't think you can say with confidence that a small old lady could not reasonably use a firearm to defend herself from a large and violent man. If she reasonably believed force was being used against her, acted defensively to stop that use of force, and her action was reasonable in the circumstances, then she's off the hook so to speak. Her use of a firearm in such circumstances would be considered, but would not be determinative of the reasonableness, and it's unclear if it alone would lead to her actions being found unreasonable.
In that comment he said excessive force. In the example given, if you get punched in the head and defend yourself by kicking him that's fine. It is only excessive force if you continue to attack the person when they are down such as continuing to kick the person on the ground , as was stated in the comment. If you are threatened you can defend yourself however you can, as long as you are in imminent threat of bodily harm. I think you missed a part of the comment about continuing attacking after your aggressor is down. Probably a simple mistake but hopefully this helps explain that comment and your rights to defend yourself.
The comment that said you only have issues if you used to excessive force for self defense, and then it gives the example as if they punch and you kick.
That's where my explorer l example comes from. Also does it mean I can punch or kick someone if they haven't hit me but they're threatening to?
That again seems to fit the example of you can only do to them what they did to you.
I have a brain injury so maybe I'm misunderstanding the example given in that comment, but I just want to learn if I'm getting something wrong.
If they punch you and you kick them that isn't a problem. If you kick them, and they fall down and get knocked out and you CONTINUE to kick them until while they are unconscious that could be excessive force. You don't have to wait for them to kick you before you can kick back, or punch before you can punch them.
You are allowed to protect yourself.
Thank you. My comment came from the one I replied to, where it did say an example of excessive force would be if they punch you and you kick them. That's why I misunderstood.
If my tone came off as aggressive that was not my intention; I just wanted to figure out where you were coming from. Self-defence laws are tricky because there’s a lot of leeway (for a good reason, but it adds a lot of grey area).
What you can do in self-defence is not limited to what is done to you. You can indeed hit someone first if you have reasonable cause to believe you are at imminent risk of harm and you have no other avenue to end the situation. Generally, unless there are extenuating circumstances, the expectation is that you remove yourself from the situation once an avenue opens up, so you can hit first if someone has you backed into a space and you have no exit route, but you can’t stay there hitting them.
The amount of force you can use also depends on *you*. Someone who is smaller may be able to justify more force than someone larger because their size leaves them at a disadvantage. Cis-women may be able to justify more force than cis-men because they are generally at a physiological disadvantage. The list goes on.
The main test used in court boils down to, would any other reasonable person have acted in the same way given the circumstances? There are other factors considered as well- previous history between attacker and victim, physical disparities, weapon involvement, etc.
If you want a more in-depth interpretation, searching “self defence Canada law firm” might help. A lot of law firms will breakdown the laws they cover in a way that makes it easy for laypeople to understand.
As for going for the groin, that is a move commonly taught in self-defense workshops/classes, so that would probably be considered reasonable in many circumstances :)
You can intercept and prevent any punch that's coming, but no you can't (in Canada) hit someone who is threatening to hit you *in most cases.* If there's no way out and you're clearly about to be assaulted, why then yes you can strike first and escape, because the trapping you equals unlawful confinement (and assault is technically the threat before the physical battery). However, in most cases, in Canada striking first when you could have safely run way instead is considered assault itself, and you can be charged. Just as you can be charged for using excessive force (e.g., using a weapon against someone who is unarmed, or breaking someone's neck because they punched you) - you can also be charged for *escalating* an incident via exchanging taunts / threats or by upping the level of force (e.g., they punch, you pull out a knife or put them in a choke, thereby causing them to fear for their life and need to escalate *their* use of force).
It's about reasonable force. If someone is coming at you with their fists and you kick him in the gonads, that can be considered reasonable as long as you don't escalate the fight by beating him up while he's down.
If you pulled a gun then that is not reasonable force and you would be breaking the law for carrying a weapon. This also goes for any sort of weapon that is intended to be carried around as a weapon like pepper spray.
You can't carry a baseball bat for self defence but if you have a baseball and a catcher's glove then, well, you just like baseball and happened to have it on you and just happened to be able to use it to defend yourself. Laws are made to be interpreted in court, it's not black and white.
>you would be breaking the law for carrying a weapon.
To be clear, this might be a factor considered by a court in determining the reasonableness of the conduct, but it is not determinative of the self-defence question. You can be guilty of carrying a concealed weapon or on some other weapons, but still be not guilty of assault or murder or some other similar charge on self-defence grounds.
This is an absolutely ridiculous interpretation. You're allowed to use enough force to protect yourself and stop the attack, as long as you don't go overboard. If you have to hit them with something because they are much bigger than you, then that's ok. But if you continue hitting them after knocking them on the ground and seriously injure them, then that's excessive force. It's to prevent people from going overboard after successfully defending themselves.
Your not aloud to "escalate" the violence. So if someone punches you once, you can essentially punch them as many times back as you want (within reason) but you can't pull out a knife. Now if someone came at you with a knife, you could technically defend yourself with a knife (also within reason). There have been cases where someone was being shot at and the defender was able to get their gun from a safe a shoot their assailant and received no charges but that's pretty rare.
Well in Canada you sometimes do, but certainly wouldn't if you're being jumped multiple people.
In general, you have a duty to retreat if doing so would be reasonable, and you can't use excessive force. You also can't use a weapon that you have *for use as a weapon*, though if the level of force wouldn't be excessive and it's an improvised weapon, it's fine. An example of that would be someone attacking you with a deadly weapon in your kitchen, and you fighting them off with a kitchen knife from the block on the counter.
Which is wild to me, because any self defense instruction I've ever taken regarding this, is that if retreat is not an option, you must escalate force. It's so strange that we have an obligation to do a mental calculation and limit our options while defending ourselves from an unprovoked attack.
It seems more reasonable that if you are willing to cause someone death or serious bodily harm for no valid reason, you forfeit your right to personal safety in that moment.
The law does allow you to escalate force, but only by one degree.
Example: if someone attacks you with their fists (and is untrained and of similar size) you are allowed to escalate to a stick or a dog's leash or something like that.
If they attack with a stick, you can defend yourself with a knife.
If they attack with a knife, you can escalate to a gun.
Every case has grey areas, but that's the general rule.
Take pictures of your injuries right now if you have not filed a report yet. Absolutely report this miscreant to the police. He will be ordered to stay away from you. You did nothing wrong trying to defend your self from a possible street killing , 5 on 1 is insane.
You are no longer in high school where there is 0 tolerance for fighting and even the defending person gets suspended which is ridiculous. Thankfully the real world doesn’t work like that (unless you go above and beyond while defending yourself). Definitely report it! Sorry it happened to you and thankfully you are not more seriously injured. Hope the attackers get what they deserve…
Don't overthink it. You were victimized by some pussies that couldn't fight one on one, and now you call the cops. Pieces of shit like that won't stop at you. Save someone else and get this dealt with.
Self defense is allowed in a situation like this. The attackers are 100% in the wrong. I really hope you're okay. Motherfuckers are lucky you didn't do serious damage to any of them, you'd get off scot-free.
This isn’t a no-tolerance school, it’s the cops. They aren’t going to charge you with assault for defending yourself against 5 people bent on hurting you.
>Report it right away, especially with all the injuries, that's assault cause bodily harm. Fuck that guy.
Only in Canada, can someone try and defend themselves against five attackers and be worried about the repercussions.
My guess is that it's some distortion of reality they got from high school. If you defend yourself many schools would punish as if instigator.
Outside of school it's obviously a whole different thing.
It's not conspiracy at all unless they can prove in court this was a thought out plan, which how in the fuck would they do that unless all this losers friends rat him out? Even then, good.luck. In B.C there's assault, and then assault causing bodily harm. If the damage inflicted was significant, they can be charged with assault causing bodily harm.
I assume other provinces aren't much different.
That answer work for you?
Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.
The crime of conspiracy requires an agreement between at least two people to commit an unlawful act.
If these guys in the heat of the moment jumped him, and they have no one to back up the claim there was an "agreement" to do the crime....it's not conspiracy.
Roids? Where the fuck did that come from lmao
I literally said this in my head. What do you mean what crime did they commit. Is assault not a crime in Canada? You can't just beat someone's ass and think you can get away with it. File a police report and a restraining order if possible.
See if you can get attempted murder tacked on due to the overwhelming force of 5 on 1. Can't hurt to lobby for yourself with the prosecutor's office. Put the thugs away for longer.
I am sorry about that I missed the fact that this was a Canada sub. It mildly irks me when people say "assault" but mean "battery"as most places in the US, the actual bodily harm is battery, assault is merely the threat of bodily harm.
Consider that he will probably do that anyway. At least with the police on your side, you have options available to you that you don't currentely.
He and five others had no issue assaulting you once. Why wouldn't they do it again?
Call the police. Get him charged. Make his life hell. Go after his buddies. Sue them all for damages (time off work/etc.).
And guaranteed if he’s this big of a POS to you, he’s doing the same thing to someone else. Call the police. For yourself and for every other one of his victims that might be too scared to
They were supposed to be his friends that should of jumped in and helped him. Not strangers that pulled out their phones to record. It's time to find new friends
Am RCMP - when somebody charged for such an offence is released, they are almost inevitably given no-contact conditions that would forbid him from communicating with you or coming to your home, workplace, etc.
If he still does it anyways, that’s just another charge that he’ll gain, and they’ll be less likely to release him again. Witness/victim intimidation is not looked upon kindly. I just had a guy returned to jail only like two days after he was released pre trial with no second release in sight, because he decided to threaten his victims again immediately.
That's another charge right there, uttering threats (on top of assault cause bodily harm.) I'd report it. He will be arrested, charged. Released on conditions not to contact you while going through court. Likely later on probation with conditions not to contact you. 4-5 years down the road when he's sorta clear of all this he won't give a shit and you're probably doing something awesome with your life while he's stuck in his hometown masturbating in his mom's basement in between shifts at the jerk store.
Please go to the police, otherwise he will continue to do this to either you or someone else. I know you're probably scared that it might happen again, but your future self will thank you for standing up this bully, I know I wished I had done something similar when I was younger.
Go to the police now. I’d recommend going in person so they can see your injuries. Once someone is charged with assault (in Ontario at least) they automatically will get a no contact order for you. Tell them that he said he will come back and find you and they may throw on an utter threats charge as well. If he comes to do it again, you just keep calling the police. He will rack up breach charges and be stuck in the court system. Do it asap before your injuries are gone.
Also, he sounds like an idiotic, violent guy so he may already have charges before the court. In this case he might get even more breaches etc. he deserves it, he deserves to be charged.
There literally is no option but to report him to the police to stand up to him.
You either keep taking the abuse, or make a report and see what comes of it.
Are you afraid of just him? You fought five guys, I think you can beat one guy.
Just go by the house and tell his family what he did as well.
I seen a dude go to a guys house and fight him then beat the dad up. From that day forward everything changed.
Welcome to Canada.
If you’re going to file a complaint against him, go while you still have the bruises and scrapes. And they might have some too.
And yes, he might come after you again, but that might happen whether you file the complaint or not. Personally, I’d say you’re better off filing the complaint and getting it on record, and continuing to do that until he gets the point.
See a doctor and have him document your injuries. Tell him they hit your head against the concrete and that you have headaches. If it ever gets to court, you will need that documentation. Also, talk to the businesses in the area, some of them might have video footage of the incident. Write down the names of anyone in those businesses who might have seen anything.
Report that shit. I threw 1 punch an it cost me a night in jail and $4500 for lawyer and still ended uo with simple assault. That’s damn lynching, if he has any criminal history he will do time prolly
Take pics of all your injuries and write down what happened now while it's fresh in your mind. And, of course, call the police. Better yet go down to the station and report it.
As someone who had something similar happen (7 or 8 guys) when I was a little younger than you, call the police. I wish I had. They made my life a nightmare for several months anyway. Just call them.
First, see a doctor IMMEDIATELY. You need pictures and documentation of your injuries before they start to fade. Then immediately go to the police, they need to take at least the person you know in to custody and document say, bruising on knuckles and such to document the activities on their side.
Got to the socials of the people you can identify. If they're all friends you should be able to easily identify the other individuals through social connections.
In addition to criminal, you can also go after them civilly; you can get monetary damages for medical bills and pain and suffering.
I'm no lawyer, but as a citizen I know that's aggravated assault. As he came with 5 others, he definitely plotted it with them
If you can get camera footage of the event from a place nearby or ask neighbours if they can testify as witnesses, would be helpful for the police
Go to the police NOW! Worst case is that this will create a paper trail, but I would hope that these people would be charged! (I am also a pessimist so there is that...)
You are lucky you are able to write your story to Reddit. You are lucky you are not in coma. You are lucky your family is not staring at you in a box. You should not be asking permission to defend yourself.
Police or they will probably do this to another person.
Gather evidence asap:
Take pictures of your injuries.
Visit your GP or local A&E so there is a medical record.
Then contact the Police. He should be charged with assault.
just curious if you were known for having the n word in your vocab? if so, they may have been mad about that, even if you didnt wield it at them specifically. if not (meaning you never ever used it out loud) then you should fight back with assault charges.
I’m not accusing you of anything, but I found the wording of your original post odd. You said the dude accused you of calling his friend the n-word, then you go on to say you’ve never met this person, you don’t know who he is, and you’ve never spoken to or about him.
The first thing I would be saying is — I’ve never called anybody that word in my life. But you don’t say that. Are you known among your circle for dropping n-bombs even if it’s with an “a” instead of an “r”? If so, maybe someone like that dude or a friend of his overheard you, and thought you were talking about the guy. I don’t think white folks should be dropping that word ever but in no way was a 5 v 1 beating justified.
No, I don’t drop that word at all. He was literally just trying to cause trouble, and my guess is that he needed to justify to his buddies a reason to beat me up. I did repeatedly say that ive never even met this guy and why would i call him that. Person in question wasn’t there and he said that thats what he was told and he trusts his friend over me.
It was 5 on 1..
Anything short of lethal force would easily pass for self-defence.
You call and/or appear at a Police station and file the report. Given you know who it was, likely their whereabouts and camera footage, which the Crown can obtain, this won’t be overly difficult
We were a group of 3 and they were 5 buff dudes, we never stood a chance, I understand why my friends didn’t want to jump in and i support their decisions not to as they would have ended up the same way as me.
Go to the hospital or walk in clinic have them note your injuries. Don’t let him and his friends walk away with doing this to you. You mentioned you’re afraid he will come after you if you say anything but regardless if he’s able to come after you once what’s stopping him again? Speak up the police will be on your side. Did any of your friends record the fight?
Should go to the emergency room or walk in clinic. Have a Doctor check you out for concussion because of being slammed to cement. Also take pictures of the injuries, for the court case. ( Bruises fade away pictures are proof it happened) Then press charges. On all five of them..
Assault. Attempted murder. I certainly hope you do call the police and press charges on those people. Those people can't keep getting away with this pathetic behavior!
Call the cops. Take pictures of your injuries.
And take it from someone who’s been around rough people most of my life… no 19 year old knows anyone or can get back at you for reporting them. They are all full of shit.
Pretty easy
1) call police and report him and the others if you know who they were so they can be found and detained by police.
2) you will not get in trouble for defending yourself. 5v1 no court will every side against you with that one.
3) chances are you aren't the only victim. If this was truly a random attack this could be a pattern of behavior which can escalate.
4) You have witnesses to this crime your friends? make sure the police get their information. You should also ask the businesses where this happened if they have footage of the assault - they may be able to identify the other attackers based on video survailence
The following is not legal advice.
Considering the amount of damage you've suffered, that could be indictable assault and/or assault causing bodily harm. As for the other 5, you might get them on assault and/or conspiracy since this obviously required planning.
If you want to pursue charges, you'll need to file a report with law enforcement and provide a statement. After that, the police will investigate and gather evidence. The problem I see is the police getting evidence to charge the bastards and the risk of extra-legal retaliation.
Crime-scene contamination is almost certain considering you did not immediately contact the police and instead asked Reddit for help. If you had washed your clothes, washed your hands, washed your wounds, or sat on a lot of other surfaces, DNA could be compromised as well. If you had been jumped in a place with surveillance cameras/car dash cameras, or can get eyewitness testimony, this can help but if not, I'm not sure there's much the police can do at this point. The police could ask for alibis and check them out and if they slip up, get them into interrogation but if they're smart, they'll say nothing and lawyer up. Honestly, it depends on a lot of unknown factors but you need to be aware that they might not get charged and things could end up a lot worse for you.
If they jump you again, you can add harassment in addition to more assault charges. Or worse.
Why didn't you just call the police?
Really just depends how hard you wanna fuck this guy over. There’s an endless list of shit you could do.
Step 1 is file a police report, this needs to be done ASAP. Don’t wait.
Step 2 is get checked out by at least 1 doctor. Even if you think you are totally fine, you need medical records in case you suffer some sort of long term injury and need to prove the cause in court.
Step 3 - hire a lawyer to sue the guys who jumped you, considering they are kids, you probably aren’t going to get much money. You can’t sue someone for a million dollars if they don’t have a million dollars, but you can easily take some money from these guys and give them a massive headache to deal with.
Get pictures of your injuries and any medical procedures that you need to have make sure to save those in a file somewhere. File an assault charge with the police department. And then find a paralegal and file civil charges against them. By using a paralegal instead of an attorney you will save tens of thousands of dollars on any legal case that you might have.
You absolutely could try to defend yourself in that situation. You were assaulted and need to call the police. They will do next to nothing about it, but at least it will put some measure of grief into his life. I know how I operate later on I would be surprising him as he comes around a corner and busting every tooth out of his mouth but that's a different story. Some people aren't vindictive bastards like I am. Hopefully you get some retribution through legal channels.
If you have never met their friend it sounds like he was just looking for an excuse. That means it could easily happen again. Nip it in the bud and call the police.
What crime did he commit? Assault. Call the police, dude. This one isn't hard.
Wasn’t sure if me trying to defend myself would be considered fighting back and if it would change anything?
Report it right away, especially with all the injuries, that's assault cause bodily harm. Fuck that guy. Edit: also, of course you can defend yourself. The only time it'd be problematic is if you defended yourself and used excessive force to end the assault. (eg, if he punched you and then you kicked him in the head and continued to kick him while he lay unconscious on the ground).
Or in high school. Which is likely why he thinks this.
That doesn't mean the cops won't charge you and you have to get representation in court to fight the charges. Source: happened to me.
I can't help but get the feeling that Canada's so called self defense laws mean you have to accept getting beat up in order to defend yourself. I have to wait to be beat up in a certain way in order to use that form of defense. If the guy's bigger than me, my punch won't do much, and in the meantime he's punching my face in, possibly breaking bones, possibly blinding an eye, possibly getting an internal brain hemorrhage. In the meantime, if I could kick him in the nuts then I stand a good chance of getting away fast and staying safe and healthy.
Your feelings notwithstanding, you're incorrect.
That doesn't explain why. There's a comment that says you're only gonna have issues with self defense if you use excessive force, and gives the example if the guy punches you and you kick him. I have a brain injury so maybe I'm not understanding that correctly, but I have a hard time understanding is it means something other than what it says. Is that statement not true? I want to understand, but a lot of people just talk down to me, suggesting I'm stupid.
Here: https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/other-autre/rsddp-rlddp/p5.html
Thanks I will have a look at that. I really appreciate you finding that for me.
Am a lawyer, can confirm this is correct.
It said to kick him in the head and continue to kick him while he's unconscious. You are allowed to protect yourself, you are not allowed to disarm a person and then continue to beat the person. Excessive force is when you go above and beyond to disarm and harm another person. Example. If a person punches you in the arm, you cannot hit them in the head with a baseball bat. If you get attacked you can kick the person, but you shouldn't kick them in the groin because it can cause serious complications and possibly death.
Yeah but again an ordinary kick from a small person will not do much to a bigger person, especially aggressive. I bet if I kicked him in the shin I'd just make him more angry and aggressive.
You can kick an attacker in the groin to get away. Even if it incidentally causes him to have to get a testicle removed. If you kick him in the groin, then slam his head off the concrete 6 or 7 times, you’ll get in trouble for the head slamming thing.
I'm not violent at all, so believe me running is my only goal. Not that I'm a pacifist, but I'm not going to win any fight. I was just trying to find out how I'd have the best chance to get away. That's where my groin idea came from. Trust me I'm getting out of there without even waiting to see if it had any effect. Thank you for helping me get this straight in my head. It does mean a lot. 😊
In this case, “equal” force is different. If a 6’5 300lbs man attacks a little old lady, her punches are not “equal” to his punches, so she is able to use greater force in attempt to equalize forces, if that makes any sense. She cannot defend herself with a gun in this case, but she could very well use a blunt object in her defence because she is so far outmatched. Using a blunt object can count as “equal force” in this case
The force used needs to be "reasonable", not "equal". You can absolutely use more force against someone than they used against you to defend yourself, that's usually how you win a fight. It doesn't mean you can shoot someone for slapping you though, that wouldn't be reasonable.
This equal force myth is nonsense. The force used has to be reasonable in the circumstances. There's no "matching up" of weapons vs. size or whatever to "equalize" force. Those are all just a few of the many factors to help determine if the action was reasonable. I don't think you can say with confidence that a small old lady could not reasonably use a firearm to defend herself from a large and violent man. If she reasonably believed force was being used against her, acted defensively to stop that use of force, and her action was reasonable in the circumstances, then she's off the hook so to speak. Her use of a firearm in such circumstances would be considered, but would not be determinative of the reasonableness, and it's unclear if it alone would lead to her actions being found unreasonable.
In that comment he said excessive force. In the example given, if you get punched in the head and defend yourself by kicking him that's fine. It is only excessive force if you continue to attack the person when they are down such as continuing to kick the person on the ground , as was stated in the comment. If you are threatened you can defend yourself however you can, as long as you are in imminent threat of bodily harm. I think you missed a part of the comment about continuing attacking after your aggressor is down. Probably a simple mistake but hopefully this helps explain that comment and your rights to defend yourself.
You need to reread that comment.
Read the entire comment for the full context.
Where are you getting the idea that you have to wait for a certain action to use a particular form of defence?
The comment that said you only have issues if you used to excessive force for self defense, and then it gives the example as if they punch and you kick. That's where my explorer l example comes from. Also does it mean I can punch or kick someone if they haven't hit me but they're threatening to? That again seems to fit the example of you can only do to them what they did to you. I have a brain injury so maybe I'm misunderstanding the example given in that comment, but I just want to learn if I'm getting something wrong.
If they punch you and you kick them that isn't a problem. If you kick them, and they fall down and get knocked out and you CONTINUE to kick them until while they are unconscious that could be excessive force. You don't have to wait for them to kick you before you can kick back, or punch before you can punch them. You are allowed to protect yourself.
Thank you. My comment came from the one I replied to, where it did say an example of excessive force would be if they punch you and you kick them. That's why I misunderstood.
If my tone came off as aggressive that was not my intention; I just wanted to figure out where you were coming from. Self-defence laws are tricky because there’s a lot of leeway (for a good reason, but it adds a lot of grey area). What you can do in self-defence is not limited to what is done to you. You can indeed hit someone first if you have reasonable cause to believe you are at imminent risk of harm and you have no other avenue to end the situation. Generally, unless there are extenuating circumstances, the expectation is that you remove yourself from the situation once an avenue opens up, so you can hit first if someone has you backed into a space and you have no exit route, but you can’t stay there hitting them. The amount of force you can use also depends on *you*. Someone who is smaller may be able to justify more force than someone larger because their size leaves them at a disadvantage. Cis-women may be able to justify more force than cis-men because they are generally at a physiological disadvantage. The list goes on. The main test used in court boils down to, would any other reasonable person have acted in the same way given the circumstances? There are other factors considered as well- previous history between attacker and victim, physical disparities, weapon involvement, etc. If you want a more in-depth interpretation, searching “self defence Canada law firm” might help. A lot of law firms will breakdown the laws they cover in a way that makes it easy for laypeople to understand. As for going for the groin, that is a move commonly taught in self-defense workshops/classes, so that would probably be considered reasonable in many circumstances :)
You can intercept and prevent any punch that's coming, but no you can't (in Canada) hit someone who is threatening to hit you *in most cases.* If there's no way out and you're clearly about to be assaulted, why then yes you can strike first and escape, because the trapping you equals unlawful confinement (and assault is technically the threat before the physical battery). However, in most cases, in Canada striking first when you could have safely run way instead is considered assault itself, and you can be charged. Just as you can be charged for using excessive force (e.g., using a weapon against someone who is unarmed, or breaking someone's neck because they punched you) - you can also be charged for *escalating* an incident via exchanging taunts / threats or by upping the level of force (e.g., they punch, you pull out a knife or put them in a choke, thereby causing them to fear for their life and need to escalate *their* use of force).
It's about reasonable force. If someone is coming at you with their fists and you kick him in the gonads, that can be considered reasonable as long as you don't escalate the fight by beating him up while he's down. If you pulled a gun then that is not reasonable force and you would be breaking the law for carrying a weapon. This also goes for any sort of weapon that is intended to be carried around as a weapon like pepper spray. You can't carry a baseball bat for self defence but if you have a baseball and a catcher's glove then, well, you just like baseball and happened to have it on you and just happened to be able to use it to defend yourself. Laws are made to be interpreted in court, it's not black and white.
>you would be breaking the law for carrying a weapon. To be clear, this might be a factor considered by a court in determining the reasonableness of the conduct, but it is not determinative of the self-defence question. You can be guilty of carrying a concealed weapon or on some other weapons, but still be not guilty of assault or murder or some other similar charge on self-defence grounds.
This is an absolutely ridiculous interpretation. You're allowed to use enough force to protect yourself and stop the attack, as long as you don't go overboard. If you have to hit them with something because they are much bigger than you, then that's ok. But if you continue hitting them after knocking them on the ground and seriously injure them, then that's excessive force. It's to prevent people from going overboard after successfully defending themselves.
Your not aloud to "escalate" the violence. So if someone punches you once, you can essentially punch them as many times back as you want (within reason) but you can't pull out a knife. Now if someone came at you with a knife, you could technically defend yourself with a knife (also within reason). There have been cases where someone was being shot at and the defender was able to get their gun from a safe a shoot their assailant and received no charges but that's pretty rare.
Cockknocker
You were defending yourself against five attackers? Canada does have self defence provisions.
This isn't high school. You don't get punished for defending yourself in real life
Well in Canada you sometimes do, but certainly wouldn't if you're being jumped multiple people. In general, you have a duty to retreat if doing so would be reasonable, and you can't use excessive force. You also can't use a weapon that you have *for use as a weapon*, though if the level of force wouldn't be excessive and it's an improvised weapon, it's fine. An example of that would be someone attacking you with a deadly weapon in your kitchen, and you fighting them off with a kitchen knife from the block on the counter.
It's a little bit of a gray area, but in general, unless you escalate the level of force, you are pretty much in the clear.
Which is wild to me, because any self defense instruction I've ever taken regarding this, is that if retreat is not an option, you must escalate force. It's so strange that we have an obligation to do a mental calculation and limit our options while defending ourselves from an unprovoked attack. It seems more reasonable that if you are willing to cause someone death or serious bodily harm for no valid reason, you forfeit your right to personal safety in that moment.
The law does allow you to escalate force, but only by one degree. Example: if someone attacks you with their fists (and is untrained and of similar size) you are allowed to escalate to a stick or a dog's leash or something like that. If they attack with a stick, you can defend yourself with a knife. If they attack with a knife, you can escalate to a gun. Every case has grey areas, but that's the general rule.
Unless it's defending yourself against police.
Take pictures of your injuries right now if you have not filed a report yet. Absolutely report this miscreant to the police. He will be ordered to stay away from you. You did nothing wrong trying to defend your self from a possible street killing , 5 on 1 is insane.
The op should go to the hospital or a doctor to get formal documentation of their injuries.
You are no longer in high school where there is 0 tolerance for fighting and even the defending person gets suspended which is ridiculous. Thankfully the real world doesn’t work like that (unless you go above and beyond while defending yourself). Definitely report it! Sorry it happened to you and thankfully you are not more seriously injured. Hope the attackers get what they deserve…
Gather witnesses and camera footage.
Don't overthink it. You were victimized by some pussies that couldn't fight one on one, and now you call the cops. Pieces of shit like that won't stop at you. Save someone else and get this dealt with.
Been there, if they for whatever reason hit you with charges the judge will toss them based on the circumstances
The real world allows self defense. This isn’t high school “everyone fighting gets punished” BS.
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Self defense is allowed in a situation like this. The attackers are 100% in the wrong. I really hope you're okay. Motherfuckers are lucky you didn't do serious damage to any of them, you'd get off scot-free.
Is Canada that fucked to where you have to worry about that?
Lol wtf - wouldn’t any human being defend themselves when being beaten by FIVE PEOPLE?
5 on 1 if you didn’t fight back you’d be dead buddy. Don’t be so fucking stupid, call the police and tell them everything.
This isn’t a no-tolerance school, it’s the cops. They aren’t going to charge you with assault for defending yourself against 5 people bent on hurting you.
No
>Report it right away, especially with all the injuries, that's assault cause bodily harm. Fuck that guy. Only in Canada, can someone try and defend themselves against five attackers and be worried about the repercussions.
My guess is that it's some distortion of reality they got from high school. If you defend yourself many schools would punish as if instigator. Outside of school it's obviously a whole different thing.
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Mmmmm no. That's not how that works at all.
Where’s your answer?
It's not conspiracy at all unless they can prove in court this was a thought out plan, which how in the fuck would they do that unless all this losers friends rat him out? Even then, good.luck. In B.C there's assault, and then assault causing bodily harm. If the damage inflicted was significant, they can be charged with assault causing bodily harm. I assume other provinces aren't much different. That answer work for you?
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Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. The crime of conspiracy requires an agreement between at least two people to commit an unlawful act. If these guys in the heat of the moment jumped him, and they have no one to back up the claim there was an "agreement" to do the crime....it's not conspiracy. Roids? Where the fuck did that come from lmao
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They didn't freak out, they politely pointed out that you were factually incorrect.
Who said that they DIDN'T plan it?
I literally said this in my head. What do you mean what crime did they commit. Is assault not a crime in Canada? You can't just beat someone's ass and think you can get away with it. File a police report and a restraining order if possible.
See if you can get attempted murder tacked on due to the overwhelming force of 5 on 1. Can't hurt to lobby for yourself with the prosecutor's office. Put the thugs away for longer.
Crime is Battery, you can batter someone without assaulting them. Assault is the threat of violence, battery is the violence itself.
Canada doesn't have a "battery" charge, its all under assault. This is either assault, or aggravated assault
I am sorry about that I missed the fact that this was a Canada sub. It mildly irks me when people say "assault" but mean "battery"as most places in the US, the actual bodily harm is battery, assault is merely the threat of bodily harm.
Assault and battery.
Battery isn't in the criminal code.
Call the police bud. You were assaulted. You are allowed to try to defend yourself when you are attacked.
Im afraid if i go to the police he will find me and do it again, he mentioned that when this all went down.
Consider that he will probably do that anyway. At least with the police on your side, you have options available to you that you don't currentely. He and five others had no issue assaulting you once. Why wouldn't they do it again? Call the police. Get him charged. Make his life hell. Go after his buddies. Sue them all for damages (time off work/etc.).
And guaranteed if he’s this big of a POS to you, he’s doing the same thing to someone else. Call the police. For yourself and for every other one of his victims that might be too scared to
Thanks
So the friends you were with just stood there and watched
ya like wtf happened there
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They were supposed to be his friends that should of jumped in and helped him. Not strangers that pulled out their phones to record. It's time to find new friends
On top of assault, that is also a threat. He can be charged for that as well.
Then his second assault will land him a much harsher sentence. Plus he is uttering threats. And you can likely get an order of protection against him.
Yeah, and by the 13th one and his extra hour of community service he’ll have really learnt his lesson.
Am RCMP - when somebody charged for such an offence is released, they are almost inevitably given no-contact conditions that would forbid him from communicating with you or coming to your home, workplace, etc. If he still does it anyways, that’s just another charge that he’ll gain, and they’ll be less likely to release him again. Witness/victim intimidation is not looked upon kindly. I just had a guy returned to jail only like two days after he was released pre trial with no second release in sight, because he decided to threaten his victims again immediately.
That's another charge right there, uttering threats (on top of assault cause bodily harm.) I'd report it. He will be arrested, charged. Released on conditions not to contact you while going through court. Likely later on probation with conditions not to contact you. 4-5 years down the road when he's sorta clear of all this he won't give a shit and you're probably doing something awesome with your life while he's stuck in his hometown masturbating in his mom's basement in between shifts at the jerk store.
if he’s working at the jerk store, I wonder if he‘s the one who makes those calls to people that “they’re running out of you”
Please go to the police, otherwise he will continue to do this to either you or someone else. I know you're probably scared that it might happen again, but your future self will thank you for standing up this bully, I know I wished I had done something similar when I was younger.
Go to the police now. I’d recommend going in person so they can see your injuries. Once someone is charged with assault (in Ontario at least) they automatically will get a no contact order for you. Tell them that he said he will come back and find you and they may throw on an utter threats charge as well. If he comes to do it again, you just keep calling the police. He will rack up breach charges and be stuck in the court system. Do it asap before your injuries are gone.
Also, he sounds like an idiotic, violent guy so he may already have charges before the court. In this case he might get even more breaches etc. he deserves it, he deserves to be charged.
Even better reason to report it so there's a file already. Fuck that POS
There literally is no option but to report him to the police to stand up to him. You either keep taking the abuse, or make a report and see what comes of it.
Are you afraid of just him? You fought five guys, I think you can beat one guy. Just go by the house and tell his family what he did as well. I seen a dude go to a guys house and fight him then beat the dad up. From that day forward everything changed. Welcome to Canada.
If you’re going to file a complaint against him, go while you still have the bruises and scrapes. And they might have some too. And yes, he might come after you again, but that might happen whether you file the complaint or not. Personally, I’d say you’re better off filing the complaint and getting it on record, and continuing to do that until he gets the point.
See a doctor and have him document your injuries. Tell him they hit your head against the concrete and that you have headaches. If it ever gets to court, you will need that documentation. Also, talk to the businesses in the area, some of them might have video footage of the incident. Write down the names of anyone in those businesses who might have seen anything.
This 👆should be further up in the comments.
You were assaulted. You call the police and report it.
Report that shit. I threw 1 punch an it cost me a night in jail and $4500 for lawyer and still ended uo with simple assault. That’s damn lynching, if he has any criminal history he will do time prolly
same here. threw one good punch on a guy (there was plenty of aggravating factors) and it got me three months.
You call the police and you tell them what happened. It's a no brainer.
Real question is what did the people with you do?
Filming it screaming worldstar, as anybody would
Stood around turning into witnesses.
Kept eating their ice cream
Recorded it on Tik Tok so they could get their "Likes" or whatever Tik Tok goes by.
Get him locked up. Organized mob violence? They're useless shitbags. Get them all locked up.
Take pics of all your injuries and write down what happened now while it's fresh in your mind. And, of course, call the police. Better yet go down to the station and report it.
As someone who had something similar happen (7 or 8 guys) when I was a little younger than you, call the police. I wish I had. They made my life a nightmare for several months anyway. Just call them.
First, see a doctor IMMEDIATELY. You need pictures and documentation of your injuries before they start to fade. Then immediately go to the police, they need to take at least the person you know in to custody and document say, bruising on knuckles and such to document the activities on their side. Got to the socials of the people you can identify. If they're all friends you should be able to easily identify the other individuals through social connections. In addition to criminal, you can also go after them civilly; you can get monetary damages for medical bills and pain and suffering.
I'm no lawyer, but as a citizen I know that's aggravated assault. As he came with 5 others, he definitely plotted it with them If you can get camera footage of the event from a place nearby or ask neighbours if they can testify as witnesses, would be helpful for the police
Take pics of your injuries and contact police immediately
Legal advice: step 1, phone the police. Step 2: explain what happened.
Go to the police NOW! Worst case is that this will create a paper trail, but I would hope that these people would be charged! (I am also a pessimist so there is that...)
Call the cops, ever other option is a non-starter and potential life-ender.
You are lucky you are able to write your story to Reddit. You are lucky you are not in coma. You are lucky your family is not staring at you in a box. You should not be asking permission to defend yourself. Police or they will probably do this to another person.
He assaulted you. Call the police. File a report
Call the police
Call the cops and give his name to them. He committed a heinous act of assault.
Call the police. Declare the assault. Press charges.
You posted not long ago about trying to steal $2000 from someone while selling a car. Not a good look. You sure there wasn’t more to this story?
I would imagine filing a police report for starters.
It’s Assault Causing Bodily Harm. A summary convictions is up to 18 months, as an indictable offence, up to ten years. Technically
You need to report it asap. If you don’t, you can all but guarantee this won’t be the last time it’ll happen.
Gather evidence asap: Take pictures of your injuries. Visit your GP or local A&E so there is a medical record. Then contact the Police. He should be charged with assault.
Number one. Call the cops. He snd his 5 buddies are criminals. Number two see Number one.
Call the cops... Should have been first thing you did and go to the hospital
Go to the police and file a report....
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Did you start with 911?
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just curious if you were known for having the n word in your vocab? if so, they may have been mad about that, even if you didnt wield it at them specifically. if not (meaning you never ever used it out loud) then you should fight back with assault charges.
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I’m not accusing you of anything, but I found the wording of your original post odd. You said the dude accused you of calling his friend the n-word, then you go on to say you’ve never met this person, you don’t know who he is, and you’ve never spoken to or about him. The first thing I would be saying is — I’ve never called anybody that word in my life. But you don’t say that. Are you known among your circle for dropping n-bombs even if it’s with an “a” instead of an “r”? If so, maybe someone like that dude or a friend of his overheard you, and thought you were talking about the guy. I don’t think white folks should be dropping that word ever but in no way was a 5 v 1 beating justified.
No, I don’t drop that word at all. He was literally just trying to cause trouble, and my guess is that he needed to justify to his buddies a reason to beat me up. I did repeatedly say that ive never even met this guy and why would i call him that. Person in question wasn’t there and he said that thats what he was told and he trusts his friend over me.
Nor do blacks need to be calling other races derogatory names.
It was 5 on 1.. Anything short of lethal force would easily pass for self-defence. You call and/or appear at a Police station and file the report. Given you know who it was, likely their whereabouts and camera footage, which the Crown can obtain, this won’t be overly difficult
Get a doctor's letter of assessment and file a police report and get a lawyet.
Call the police and file a report. Either you gonna keep getting jumped or you can stand up for yourself.
to the police like any other assault. you just happen to have the persons information which will help im sure :) hope youll be ok <3
You were out with friends and they let you get your ass kicked? You need better friends.
We were a group of 3 and they were 5 buff dudes, we never stood a chance, I understand why my friends didn’t want to jump in and i support their decisions not to as they would have ended up the same way as me.
Ah your friends are cowards I see.
No, they're smart. No reason for them to get beat up too when it wouldn't change the outcome.
Yeah, no, that's cowardice. You don't let your buddy get thumped like that.
Where were the friends who were with you when all this happened?
Take pictures of your injuries.
Go to the hospital or walk in clinic have them note your injuries. Don’t let him and his friends walk away with doing this to you. You mentioned you’re afraid he will come after you if you say anything but regardless if he’s able to come after you once what’s stopping him again? Speak up the police will be on your side. Did any of your friends record the fight?
go to ER and have a doctor document injuries
Should go to the emergency room or walk in clinic. Have a Doctor check you out for concussion because of being slammed to cement. Also take pictures of the injuries, for the court case. ( Bruises fade away pictures are proof it happened) Then press charges. On all five of them..
Assault. Attempted murder. I certainly hope you do call the police and press charges on those people. Those people can't keep getting away with this pathetic behavior!
Call the cops. Take pictures of your injuries. And take it from someone who’s been around rough people most of my life… no 19 year old knows anyone or can get back at you for reporting them. They are all full of shit.
Some good advice here. Hugs to you, you can do this.
Pretty easy 1) call police and report him and the others if you know who they were so they can be found and detained by police. 2) you will not get in trouble for defending yourself. 5v1 no court will every side against you with that one. 3) chances are you aren't the only victim. If this was truly a random attack this could be a pattern of behavior which can escalate. 4) You have witnesses to this crime your friends? make sure the police get their information. You should also ask the businesses where this happened if they have footage of the assault - they may be able to identify the other attackers based on video survailence
The following is not legal advice. Considering the amount of damage you've suffered, that could be indictable assault and/or assault causing bodily harm. As for the other 5, you might get them on assault and/or conspiracy since this obviously required planning. If you want to pursue charges, you'll need to file a report with law enforcement and provide a statement. After that, the police will investigate and gather evidence. The problem I see is the police getting evidence to charge the bastards and the risk of extra-legal retaliation. Crime-scene contamination is almost certain considering you did not immediately contact the police and instead asked Reddit for help. If you had washed your clothes, washed your hands, washed your wounds, or sat on a lot of other surfaces, DNA could be compromised as well. If you had been jumped in a place with surveillance cameras/car dash cameras, or can get eyewitness testimony, this can help but if not, I'm not sure there's much the police can do at this point. The police could ask for alibis and check them out and if they slip up, get them into interrogation but if they're smart, they'll say nothing and lawyer up. Honestly, it depends on a lot of unknown factors but you need to be aware that they might not get charged and things could end up a lot worse for you. If they jump you again, you can add harassment in addition to more assault charges. Or worse. Why didn't you just call the police?
Really just depends how hard you wanna fuck this guy over. There’s an endless list of shit you could do. Step 1 is file a police report, this needs to be done ASAP. Don’t wait. Step 2 is get checked out by at least 1 doctor. Even if you think you are totally fine, you need medical records in case you suffer some sort of long term injury and need to prove the cause in court. Step 3 - hire a lawyer to sue the guys who jumped you, considering they are kids, you probably aren’t going to get much money. You can’t sue someone for a million dollars if they don’t have a million dollars, but you can easily take some money from these guys and give them a massive headache to deal with.
Assault occasioning actual bodily harm is what he and his 'friends' did and you go to the police NOW!!
Get your ass to the police station with all records receipts ... Everything. Grow some balls. This isn't ok
This is assault and you should contact the police.
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Get pictures of your injuries and any medical procedures that you need to have make sure to save those in a file somewhere. File an assault charge with the police department. And then find a paralegal and file civil charges against them. By using a paralegal instead of an attorney you will save tens of thousands of dollars on any legal case that you might have.
Get to hospital and document injuries at a minimum.
You absolutely could try to defend yourself in that situation. You were assaulted and need to call the police. They will do next to nothing about it, but at least it will put some measure of grief into his life. I know how I operate later on I would be surprising him as he comes around a corner and busting every tooth out of his mouth but that's a different story. Some people aren't vindictive bastards like I am. Hopefully you get some retribution through legal channels.
It's called assault, I'd be calling the cops and pressing charges.
If you have never met their friend it sounds like he was just looking for an excuse. That means it could easily happen again. Nip it in the bud and call the police.
Call the cops and contact his family