Is there any way he can use bone conduction headphones? They won’t cover his ears so he’ll still be able to talk to people, and you won’t get blasted out by music.
Noise cancelling unfortunately doesn’t work that way. You best bet is to have a mic directly on the surgeon (closer to the source, the better) and monitor that mic’s input, but good luck with that. I think that might compromise patient safety or at least be an onerous scrub in/out by adding a non-sterile piece of gear.
Thank you for your input. I agree it would be onerous. If I were able to go this route, do you have a suggestion on what kind of equipment to look into?
Perhaps we should be holding the surgeon responsible for the dangerous situation they create.
Let me note: I also love working with loud rock and rock blasting, literally the guy who makes it loud for a living.
I am constantly concerned with how loud my test music is during a large setup. I do not play music longer than necessary and always turn down when safety is a concern. For example, at chase center , a big move we always have to do is 100 stagehands move the entire stage into place after the lights an speakers are in hung. During this time it is critical for everyone to take cues from the head carpenter. Sound is turned off, no brainer. I would never compromise his job or the safety involved.
I’m no brain surgeon, just a dumb stagehand, but it seems like this surgeon is being unsafe.
I'm sure you know this, but you're not "just a dumb stagehand." Your post is coherent, organized, and respectful.
You're probably mostly joking, but as someone with several friends who are literal brain surgeons, and a closeknit group of friends that are stagehands and keygrips, all of them would enjoy learning about each others' respective crafts. I don't have the firsthand experience to comment on rocket scientists, but I suspect they would have an appreciation of the unique knowledge that a stagehand possesses as well.
I also want to assure you that the surgeon is not creating a dangerous situation. No hyper-critical information is being missed by either myself or the surgeon, and when there are critical portions of the surgical process, it is absolutely policy to turn the music off. The worst case scenario is he asks me a question and I say "what?" and he has to repeat himself. It is embarrassing for me because I'm young and shouldn't need hearing aids but here I am.
Wrong situation to apply noise cancellation.
I would suggest asking the surgeon to either turn the music down or speak louder. It's not only his workplace but also yours.
That is a logical assessment. I work with many kind surgeons who are amenable to that suggestion, but they do it by choice. Generally, the surgeon and anesthesiologists get the final say on things because without them there is no surgery.
It's unfortunate that noise cancellation isn't an option. The way I understand the technology, I think the idea of a microphone recording near a speaker and canceling out that specific noise/music through an earbud is certainly possible, but I can't think of why anyone would make such a device outside of this one niche situation.
The way you understand the technology is wrong. Ambient sound with a constant volume and repetitive nature such as the noise from a desk fan is no problem. Dynamic music with a wide bandwidth is almost impossible. An experiment for your self would be to have a zoom call with someone and try playing loud music in the background while engaging the highest level of noise reduction. Even some of the best AI driven noise reduction cannot complete.
Don't ask for advice from professionals and then reject the answer for your own alternative reality.
Sorry but it’s not. Many people in the audio industry would love this device if it were possible. There is software that has had some success, but nothing magic and nothing that does a good enough job. Good luck on your lav mic purchase.
Thank you for your input. I'm sorry I had a misunderstanding of the capabilities, which has been made clear to me now. I do not mean to come off as rejecting the reality of the situation.
At the risk of sounding like an idiot who doesn't grasp this concept, could you help me to understand what the technical limitations are from your professional point of view? You state that some software has had some success. Could you point me in the direction of that software so I could learn about it?
Lastly, I have a Roland amplifier I use that has a "center cancel" button on it. While it's not perfect, it does a pretty good job of cancelling out vocals, and the user manual says it's cancelling sound that was recorded at "the center of the sound field". What does that mean? Is the center of the sound field a description of frequencies in the middle of the audible sound spectrum, or something else?
Just to comment on your last question about the vocals. In simple terms, center of the sound field is referring to the spatial position of the vocal in the mix. Since usually vocals are mono and centered, and other instruments are placed in different parts of the stereo field, it's easy to isolate the vocals and flip the phase and cancel them out while leaving the other elements untouched.
Then I think I still have a misunderstanding of the technology. Could one not record a mono track from a microphone centered directly in front of the speaker, and then flip the phase to cancel it out in an earpiece leaving all the other noise of the room less/unaffected by active noise cancellation? A user above indicated I was wrong to pursue this question, so my apologies if I'm so clueless that I come off as abrasive. I appreciate your help.
[This may be interesting to you](https://youtu.be/JewurXxPn4E) not cheap. Don't know if it would work for you, but could be interesting to look at.
It seems to be a cross between a Wireless earbud and a hearing aid.
Not helpful but relevant. I had a hernia surgery last year and my surgeon seemed to like loud classic rock. "Highway to Hell" was playing on the speakers as they rolled me in. The anesthesiologist commented that at least it wasn't "Don't Fear the Reaper"
Thankfully I was too drugged up to even think about it.
Don't know why you get downvoted, people expecting a surgeon who is removing the 1000 appendix this year to not listen to the 10 hour taking the hobbits to Isengard is just delusional.
Maybe bring in some loudness measuring device and see what levels are like over a typical surgery? Surely if it’s super loud there must be grounds to contact the relevant Health & Safety authority?
Your idea of sound cancelation is possible but at very great expense. J Meyer Sound has a system called Constellation. It's an elaborate and very very expensive sound system that is designed to do what you're talking about. It can direct sound into specific locations, vary the acoustics of the room, allow speech to be heard WITHOUT microphones (on the person speaking) even WITH ambience going on at the same time. Obviously there will be limitations but it can create ambience "nulls" in specific area locations within a room although I've never seen it operate in a small OR. Its been installed in several restaurants that wanted to lower the "noise" levels in for the customers.
There are 2 things you can try w/o spending too much time and money. Hang the speaker somewhere else so it's only aimed at him and no one else. In fact there are MEMs speakers that can direct sound ONLY at one location (like a spotlight or a laser) and NO ONE nearby can hear anything. This is pricy (and not great quality for music) so I wouldn't consider it. The other idea is to surround the speaker with a hard baffle that will restrict the sound from "spilling" all over the place including your position. Unfortunately this requires more effort and time adjusting and tweeking. NOT a DIY project so more costly.
Finally, it seems like you need to be a little more assertive on this issue with this particular doctor. If you miss a communication with him or mistakenly hear something wrong it can have dire consequences. Talk to the other folks in the room and see if they have the same issues with the sound level. Ask him to speak louder when giving directions. Don't let him get away being his lazy quiet self. If he gives you instructions and it wasn't clear (or even if it was clear but too soft) make him repeat himself. Do this enough times you can "train" him to speak up. If he's an arse about it speak to his supervisor. This problem needs to be solved. Good luck.
I can't thank you enough for taking the time to write out this comment. I'm looking into J Meyer Sound and their Constellation product. It sounds like the cutting edge of the active noise cancellation technology and exactly what I am imagining, but in more of an industrial/commercial sense. That is not outside the realm of our resources, but perhaps it's overkill. Maybe they will be able to point me in the right direction for a smaller scale solution. Thank you again.
If you're interested in really pursuing this at least contact them as Constellation is a product looking for a market. Be warned though, a small system started at half a million USD and when I was introduced to it it requires a knowledgeable operator. That probably has changed so YMMV.
If the issue is OP being directly under one of many speakers (an assumption I made, but wasn’t clarified by OP) then it just reduces volume under that one speaker
You've made a correct assumption and I may try that. This subreddit has provided so many useful suggestions (and some that completely ignore the premise of the original post). Thank you for your contribution.
Without attaching a microphone to the surgeon, and without turning the music down, that is not an enviable situation!
My suggestion, if at all possible, would be to try a hyper-cardioid microphone to pick up the voice of the surgeon. This is a highly precise, directional microphone that will only pick up noise in the acute angle that it is facing. At the same time, have the music speaker face away from the microphone, or at least out of its line-of-sight. This way, the surgeon won’t have to wear headphones/attach a lapel to his uniform, can talk to you clearly, and can still have his music loud (in theory).
Careful with any sort of microphone, I could see the facility getting angry due to HIPPA stuff.
If you can't move the speaker, can you aim it? Can you affix some kind of absorption material beneath it so it's not blasting you? Owens Corning 703 is the standard for acoustic treatment.
I will look into this Owens Corning 703 you mention. Thank you for your suggestion!
No worries on the HIPAA front. I obtain written authorization from every patient to collect any data that is relevant to the pursuit of my job function. Even if I were to save audio obtained in the OR (which I don't plan on doing), it's the transmission of that data to a party that isn't relevant to the patients care that would make it a violation.
You're definitely smart to think about HIPAA conflicts though. It's an incredibly easy statute to violate if not understood thoroughly, and the legal implications are second to the moral responsibility we have as healthcare providers.
Is there any way he can use bone conduction headphones? They won’t cover his ears so he’ll still be able to talk to people, and you won’t get blasted out by music.
Noise cancelling unfortunately doesn’t work that way. You best bet is to have a mic directly on the surgeon (closer to the source, the better) and monitor that mic’s input, but good luck with that. I think that might compromise patient safety or at least be an onerous scrub in/out by adding a non-sterile piece of gear.
Thank you for your input. I agree it would be onerous. If I were able to go this route, do you have a suggestion on what kind of equipment to look into?
Perhaps we should be holding the surgeon responsible for the dangerous situation they create. Let me note: I also love working with loud rock and rock blasting, literally the guy who makes it loud for a living. I am constantly concerned with how loud my test music is during a large setup. I do not play music longer than necessary and always turn down when safety is a concern. For example, at chase center , a big move we always have to do is 100 stagehands move the entire stage into place after the lights an speakers are in hung. During this time it is critical for everyone to take cues from the head carpenter. Sound is turned off, no brainer. I would never compromise his job or the safety involved. I’m no brain surgeon, just a dumb stagehand, but it seems like this surgeon is being unsafe.
I'm sure you know this, but you're not "just a dumb stagehand." Your post is coherent, organized, and respectful. You're probably mostly joking, but as someone with several friends who are literal brain surgeons, and a closeknit group of friends that are stagehands and keygrips, all of them would enjoy learning about each others' respective crafts. I don't have the firsthand experience to comment on rocket scientists, but I suspect they would have an appreciation of the unique knowledge that a stagehand possesses as well. I also want to assure you that the surgeon is not creating a dangerous situation. No hyper-critical information is being missed by either myself or the surgeon, and when there are critical portions of the surgical process, it is absolutely policy to turn the music off. The worst case scenario is he asks me a question and I say "what?" and he has to repeat himself. It is embarrassing for me because I'm young and shouldn't need hearing aids but here I am.
Wrong situation to apply noise cancellation. I would suggest asking the surgeon to either turn the music down or speak louder. It's not only his workplace but also yours.
That is a logical assessment. I work with many kind surgeons who are amenable to that suggestion, but they do it by choice. Generally, the surgeon and anesthesiologists get the final say on things because without them there is no surgery. It's unfortunate that noise cancellation isn't an option. The way I understand the technology, I think the idea of a microphone recording near a speaker and canceling out that specific noise/music through an earbud is certainly possible, but I can't think of why anyone would make such a device outside of this one niche situation.
The way you understand the technology is wrong. Ambient sound with a constant volume and repetitive nature such as the noise from a desk fan is no problem. Dynamic music with a wide bandwidth is almost impossible. An experiment for your self would be to have a zoom call with someone and try playing loud music in the background while engaging the highest level of noise reduction. Even some of the best AI driven noise reduction cannot complete. Don't ask for advice from professionals and then reject the answer for your own alternative reality.
My apologies. I have a misunderstanding of the technology. Thank you for your input and sorry to offend.
Sorry but it’s not. Many people in the audio industry would love this device if it were possible. There is software that has had some success, but nothing magic and nothing that does a good enough job. Good luck on your lav mic purchase.
Thank you for your input. I'm sorry I had a misunderstanding of the capabilities, which has been made clear to me now. I do not mean to come off as rejecting the reality of the situation. At the risk of sounding like an idiot who doesn't grasp this concept, could you help me to understand what the technical limitations are from your professional point of view? You state that some software has had some success. Could you point me in the direction of that software so I could learn about it? Lastly, I have a Roland amplifier I use that has a "center cancel" button on it. While it's not perfect, it does a pretty good job of cancelling out vocals, and the user manual says it's cancelling sound that was recorded at "the center of the sound field". What does that mean? Is the center of the sound field a description of frequencies in the middle of the audible sound spectrum, or something else?
Just to comment on your last question about the vocals. In simple terms, center of the sound field is referring to the spatial position of the vocal in the mix. Since usually vocals are mono and centered, and other instruments are placed in different parts of the stereo field, it's easy to isolate the vocals and flip the phase and cancel them out while leaving the other elements untouched.
Then I think I still have a misunderstanding of the technology. Could one not record a mono track from a microphone centered directly in front of the speaker, and then flip the phase to cancel it out in an earpiece leaving all the other noise of the room less/unaffected by active noise cancellation? A user above indicated I was wrong to pursue this question, so my apologies if I'm so clueless that I come off as abrasive. I appreciate your help.
[This may be interesting to you](https://youtu.be/JewurXxPn4E) not cheap. Don't know if it would work for you, but could be interesting to look at. It seems to be a cross between a Wireless earbud and a hearing aid.
Oh that might be what I'm looking for! Thank you so much!
Not helpful but relevant. I had a hernia surgery last year and my surgeon seemed to like loud classic rock. "Highway to Hell" was playing on the speakers as they rolled me in. The anesthesiologist commented that at least it wasn't "Don't Fear the Reaper" Thankfully I was too drugged up to even think about it.
Haha, that's a dark joke by the anesthesiologist. I hope your recovery from surgery has been smooth! Best of luck!
I’ve never been in surgery before, but they play music while operating? I can’t believe they wouldn’t have anything but silence in the OR.
Surgery is still physical labor like many other jobs :) Music makes it less monotonous.
Don't know why you get downvoted, people expecting a surgeon who is removing the 1000 appendix this year to not listen to the 10 hour taking the hobbits to Isengard is just delusional.
Can you move your workstation or the speaker?
Maybe bring in some loudness measuring device and see what levels are like over a typical surgery? Surely if it’s super loud there must be grounds to contact the relevant Health & Safety authority?
Your idea of sound cancelation is possible but at very great expense. J Meyer Sound has a system called Constellation. It's an elaborate and very very expensive sound system that is designed to do what you're talking about. It can direct sound into specific locations, vary the acoustics of the room, allow speech to be heard WITHOUT microphones (on the person speaking) even WITH ambience going on at the same time. Obviously there will be limitations but it can create ambience "nulls" in specific area locations within a room although I've never seen it operate in a small OR. Its been installed in several restaurants that wanted to lower the "noise" levels in for the customers. There are 2 things you can try w/o spending too much time and money. Hang the speaker somewhere else so it's only aimed at him and no one else. In fact there are MEMs speakers that can direct sound ONLY at one location (like a spotlight or a laser) and NO ONE nearby can hear anything. This is pricy (and not great quality for music) so I wouldn't consider it. The other idea is to surround the speaker with a hard baffle that will restrict the sound from "spilling" all over the place including your position. Unfortunately this requires more effort and time adjusting and tweeking. NOT a DIY project so more costly. Finally, it seems like you need to be a little more assertive on this issue with this particular doctor. If you miss a communication with him or mistakenly hear something wrong it can have dire consequences. Talk to the other folks in the room and see if they have the same issues with the sound level. Ask him to speak louder when giving directions. Don't let him get away being his lazy quiet self. If he gives you instructions and it wasn't clear (or even if it was clear but too soft) make him repeat himself. Do this enough times you can "train" him to speak up. If he's an arse about it speak to his supervisor. This problem needs to be solved. Good luck.
I can't thank you enough for taking the time to write out this comment. I'm looking into J Meyer Sound and their Constellation product. It sounds like the cutting edge of the active noise cancellation technology and exactly what I am imagining, but in more of an industrial/commercial sense. That is not outside the realm of our resources, but perhaps it's overkill. Maybe they will be able to point me in the right direction for a smaller scale solution. Thank you again.
If you're interested in really pursuing this at least contact them as Constellation is a product looking for a market. Be warned though, a small system started at half a million USD and when I was introduced to it it requires a knowledgeable operator. That probably has changed so YMMV.
Pull the speaker and reduce the tap (assuming it’s a 70v system and there are multiple speakers in the room.
No, that just makes it worse. Now everyone is subjected to the same noise level.
If the issue is OP being directly under one of many speakers (an assumption I made, but wasn’t clarified by OP) then it just reduces volume under that one speaker
You've made a correct assumption and I may try that. This subreddit has provided so many useful suggestions (and some that completely ignore the premise of the original post). Thank you for your contribution.
Without attaching a microphone to the surgeon, and without turning the music down, that is not an enviable situation! My suggestion, if at all possible, would be to try a hyper-cardioid microphone to pick up the voice of the surgeon. This is a highly precise, directional microphone that will only pick up noise in the acute angle that it is facing. At the same time, have the music speaker face away from the microphone, or at least out of its line-of-sight. This way, the surgeon won’t have to wear headphones/attach a lapel to his uniform, can talk to you clearly, and can still have his music loud (in theory).
This is a great idea! Thank you so much for your constructive input! I will look into it :)
No problem, please update us on what solution worked! Very curious about it.
Careful with any sort of microphone, I could see the facility getting angry due to HIPPA stuff. If you can't move the speaker, can you aim it? Can you affix some kind of absorption material beneath it so it's not blasting you? Owens Corning 703 is the standard for acoustic treatment.
I will look into this Owens Corning 703 you mention. Thank you for your suggestion! No worries on the HIPAA front. I obtain written authorization from every patient to collect any data that is relevant to the pursuit of my job function. Even if I were to save audio obtained in the OR (which I don't plan on doing), it's the transmission of that data to a party that isn't relevant to the patients care that would make it a violation. You're definitely smart to think about HIPAA conflicts though. It's an incredibly easy statute to violate if not understood thoroughly, and the legal implications are second to the moral responsibility we have as healthcare providers.