All along "manly" has simply meant "mature adult who does their best and tries to be upstanding" which ironically isn't a gender-specific quality.
A single mom out there who doesn't shy away from hardship and does her best to make sure her kids are looked after is as "manly" as anyone.
I agree! And if “womanly” or “feminine” qualities are caring, compassionate, kind, etc. then we should all strive to be both, right? I hate that if you’re one displaying qualities of the other, many times you’re shamed for that, it’s so incredibly stupid
That's the major problem with Labels in general. A label can easily be used to **roughly** describe something. But as you take a closer look, suddenly you find a whole lot of differences and exeptions within your label.
Even some as basic labels as "car" do have their problems, once you wanna assign every specific 4-weeled, motor-driven vehicle out there. So labels that aim to describe something so complex as human beeings are bound to be heavily flawed to the point of beeing borderline pointless.
As for the classic "manly" or "girly/womanly" (not sure what's used in english since I'm not a native speaker) - I don't know a single representative of one gender that doesn't have attributes from both labels.
Yep, meanwhile the usefulness of labels also heavily outweighs the problems of discarded nuance.
To your last point yes except for directly physical attributes it's not exclusive to one gender or the other while it does have average differences etc.
I’d say the usefulness of labels is about as important as the nuance. and physical attributes are ALSO on a spectrum, and there are plenty of really muscley women and thin slight men. So the comment about “except for physical attributes” is not really necessary
My first reactio running through different examples in my mind that doesn't ring true.
You can imagine certain circumstances, but most commonly that's not the case.
Ofcourse the comment except for physical attributes is necessary regardless of the obvious fact there are weak men and strong women even though most men are naturally much stronger than most women.
Certain traits are more associated with femininity or masculinity because they tend to display them more, not because they necessarily display them exclusively.
True, but nowadays people take this to the extreme and if a man shows emotion or cries, he’s a woman and he needs to man up. So I think moving away from “oh men are strong and women are emotional” is probably for the best
Sure, and these kinds of cultural behaviours evolve and survive when they are more beneficial than harmful on the whole compared to alternative ways of being and if they become outdated they stop by being outcompeted by more successful behaviours.
If you're right, the results will show.
This. These aren't "manly" qualities, they are human qualities. A good deal of the toxic masculinity culture is taking regular human qualities and casting them as "feminine" and therefore undesirable.
Yeah, this. It's impossible to define "manly" in a way that doesn't come out as "generally a good human." That's because morality isn't gendered.
The same thing goes for "womanly" unless one is of the opinion that women are lesser, and that's a whole different can of worms.
For example, if someone says oh look at him he looks or seems very manly. They're usually referring to physical features or an activity he's performing or way of being that is more typical of males.
When someone "does their best" or "tries to be upstanding" this isn't associated with gender.
Another good one, though very quick, is in Lothlorien when Celeborn is hating on dwarves and Gimli in particular. Galadriel corrects him, and says nah this dudes alright. And Celeborn immediately walks it back and is like, you're right, my bad, I'll try and be more understanding. Obviously my recounting of this exchange is not as eloquent as Tolkien, but the message is still there nonetheless.
I got you fam.
‘Alas!’ said Celeborn. ‘We long have feared that under
Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves
had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden
you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with
you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last
Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the
net of Moria.’
‘He would be rash indeed that said that thing,’ said
Galadriel gravely. ‘Needless were none of the deeds of
Gandalf in life. Those that followed him knew not his mind
and cannot report his full purpose. But however it may be
with the guide, the followers are blameless. Do not repent
of your welcome to the Dwarf. If our folk had been exiled
long and far from Lothlórien, who of the Galadhrim, even
Celeborn the Wise, would pass nigh and would not wish to
look upon their ancient home, though it had become an abode
of dragons?
‘Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the
springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of
Khazad-dûm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings
beneath the stone.’ She looked upon Gimli, who sat glowering
and sad, and she smiled. And the Dwarf, hearing the names
given in his own ancient tongue, looked up and met her eyes;
and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart
of an enemy and saw there love and understanding. Wonder
came into his face, and then he smiled in answer.
He rose clumsily and bowed in dwarf-fashion, saying: ‘Yet more fair is the living land of Lórien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth!’
There was a silence. At length Celeborn spoke again. ‘I did
not know that your plight was so evil,’ he said. ‘Let Gimli
forget my harsh words: I spoke in the trouble of my heart. I
will do what I can to aid you, each according to his wish and
need, but especially that one of the little folk who bears the
burden.’
When you wrestle and travel to wrestling camps and had to compete for years with the same guys you get to this level of well, tenderness.
Over the years I’ve had my teammates help dress me after breaking my ribs. I’ve helped guys go to the toilet that can’t walk to it at that point in time.
One of my buddies that was strapped to a bed (suspected spine injury) that needed to pee had one of our teammates whip it out and put the end in one of those weird cardboard bed pan things you pee in and then put it back in his jock strap because there were no nurses available.
We had guys lose parents the day before competing and his closest friends would just say “if you want to talk or drill or whatever call me/come to my room”. Drilling wrestling moves wouldn’t be advised the day before comps and offering it is a way of saying you’re more important to me than this competition.
Guys only get like this when they have been through shit together. You get it in sport, you get it in the military and you get it in hard manual jobs.
You cannot get this in an office environment or a sedentary job, men don’t make connections with each other that way. It has to be shared physical suffering.
In my wrestling club we have a way of signalling if we are in need of help mentally. I am lucky and have never used it, I’ve been close sometimes with my wife and my sister both having miscarriages in the same year and me trying to hold the whole family together but I actually managed to talk it out with some friends after training in the changing rooms.
The guys in LOTR have all shared in suffering and fighting for the same cause, men arn’t great with empathy but we can see our suffering or happiness reflected in others easily and get EXTREME empathetic feelings.
Damn good post. Trying to think of some from the First Age…
Thingol, king of the grey elves of Beleriand, was a bigoted racist asshole to men, and especially to Beren, though that last might be somewhat excused because the little mortal shit had the psycho idea that he could hook up with Thingol’s daughter Luthien; you know, the most beautiful of all living things. The king changed his tune though, after seeing what a badass Beren is and by extension that men are pretty awesome after all, he accepted the marriage of his daughter and this man and gave them his blessing, and later fought with him. He also later took in Turin son of Hurin as a foster son, having explicitly turned around and told the world that men are just as cool as elves ever were, if not more
True in typical fashion it took direct evidence within his own household to change his mind, but Avari kings are a hard-headed stubborn lot. We’ll take it
To be fair to Thingol, he had forboding dreams about Men. And some Men killed trees and beasts where the Green-elves lived, to the point that the Green-elves made them leave.
Correct me if i'm wrong but he wasn't a "bigoted racist asshole" to the dwarves. He had tasked the dwarves of Nogrod to forge the necklace Nauglamir. After the completion of the necklace, some dwarves wanted the necklace as payment for their work but Thingol refused and the dwarves killed him and stole the necklace. This act caused the rift between elves and dwarves for the ages to come.
Agreed, but let’s not forget it is also because they put the needs of others before themselves and seek to protect good and fight evil.
More traditional take, I know, and they aren’t perfect at it, but manliness isn’t totally separated from hewing orcs in twain 😂😅
It’s also because they draw their sword and fight like the lives of others depend on it. There’s a big difference between crying before the battle has even begun and crying once the battle is over. And LOTR is full of the latter which is commendable.
I'm not very manly or tough.
I don't think crying or showing physical affection makes you manly or less manly other than maybe crying more in general and at particular things can be more feminine. Showing physical affection to friends is similarly common between both genders although expressed differently.
All along "manly" has simply meant "mature adult who does their best and tries to be upstanding" which ironically isn't a gender-specific quality. A single mom out there who doesn't shy away from hardship and does her best to make sure her kids are looked after is as "manly" as anyone.
I agree! And if “womanly” or “feminine” qualities are caring, compassionate, kind, etc. then we should all strive to be both, right? I hate that if you’re one displaying qualities of the other, many times you’re shamed for that, it’s so incredibly stupid
That's the major problem with Labels in general. A label can easily be used to **roughly** describe something. But as you take a closer look, suddenly you find a whole lot of differences and exeptions within your label. Even some as basic labels as "car" do have their problems, once you wanna assign every specific 4-weeled, motor-driven vehicle out there. So labels that aim to describe something so complex as human beeings are bound to be heavily flawed to the point of beeing borderline pointless. As for the classic "manly" or "girly/womanly" (not sure what's used in english since I'm not a native speaker) - I don't know a single representative of one gender that doesn't have attributes from both labels.
Yep, meanwhile the usefulness of labels also heavily outweighs the problems of discarded nuance. To your last point yes except for directly physical attributes it's not exclusive to one gender or the other while it does have average differences etc.
I’d say the usefulness of labels is about as important as the nuance. and physical attributes are ALSO on a spectrum, and there are plenty of really muscley women and thin slight men. So the comment about “except for physical attributes” is not really necessary
My first reactio running through different examples in my mind that doesn't ring true. You can imagine certain circumstances, but most commonly that's not the case. Ofcourse the comment except for physical attributes is necessary regardless of the obvious fact there are weak men and strong women even though most men are naturally much stronger than most women.
Certain traits are more associated with femininity or masculinity because they tend to display them more, not because they necessarily display them exclusively.
Love that you got downvoted for this totally reasonable comment... 🙃
The world is a strange place
True, but nowadays people take this to the extreme and if a man shows emotion or cries, he’s a woman and he needs to man up. So I think moving away from “oh men are strong and women are emotional” is probably for the best
Sure, and these kinds of cultural behaviours evolve and survive when they are more beneficial than harmful on the whole compared to alternative ways of being and if they become outdated they stop by being outcompeted by more successful behaviours. If you're right, the results will show.
This. These aren't "manly" qualities, they are human qualities. A good deal of the toxic masculinity culture is taking regular human qualities and casting them as "feminine" and therefore undesirable.
How about we change the term to “Brave” or “Courageous” instead?
Yeah, this. It's impossible to define "manly" in a way that doesn't come out as "generally a good human." That's because morality isn't gendered. The same thing goes for "womanly" unless one is of the opinion that women are lesser, and that's a whole different can of worms.
All along "manly" has simply meant "mature adult who does their best and tries to be upstanding". Umm no. Sorry 🤷♂️
So what does it mean?
For example, if someone says oh look at him he looks or seems very manly. They're usually referring to physical features or an activity he's performing or way of being that is more typical of males. When someone "does their best" or "tries to be upstanding" this isn't associated with gender.
Another good one, though very quick, is in Lothlorien when Celeborn is hating on dwarves and Gimli in particular. Galadriel corrects him, and says nah this dudes alright. And Celeborn immediately walks it back and is like, you're right, my bad, I'll try and be more understanding. Obviously my recounting of this exchange is not as eloquent as Tolkien, but the message is still there nonetheless.
I got you fam. ‘Alas!’ said Celeborn. ‘We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, I would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.’ ‘He would be rash indeed that said that thing,’ said Galadriel gravely. ‘Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life. Those that followed him knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose. But however it may be with the guide, the followers are blameless. Do not repent of your welcome to the Dwarf. If our folk had been exiled long and far from Lothlórien, who of the Galadhrim, even Celeborn the Wise, would pass nigh and would not wish to look upon their ancient home, though it had become an abode of dragons? ‘Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone.’ She looked upon Gimli, who sat glowering and sad, and she smiled. And the Dwarf, hearing the names given in his own ancient tongue, looked up and met her eyes; and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and saw there love and understanding. Wonder came into his face, and then he smiled in answer. He rose clumsily and bowed in dwarf-fashion, saying: ‘Yet more fair is the living land of Lórien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth!’ There was a silence. At length Celeborn spoke again. ‘I did not know that your plight was so evil,’ he said. ‘Let Gimli forget my harsh words: I spoke in the trouble of my heart. I will do what I can to aid you, each according to his wish and need, but especially that one of the little folk who bears the burden.’
Nice!!!
When you wrestle and travel to wrestling camps and had to compete for years with the same guys you get to this level of well, tenderness. Over the years I’ve had my teammates help dress me after breaking my ribs. I’ve helped guys go to the toilet that can’t walk to it at that point in time. One of my buddies that was strapped to a bed (suspected spine injury) that needed to pee had one of our teammates whip it out and put the end in one of those weird cardboard bed pan things you pee in and then put it back in his jock strap because there were no nurses available. We had guys lose parents the day before competing and his closest friends would just say “if you want to talk or drill or whatever call me/come to my room”. Drilling wrestling moves wouldn’t be advised the day before comps and offering it is a way of saying you’re more important to me than this competition. Guys only get like this when they have been through shit together. You get it in sport, you get it in the military and you get it in hard manual jobs. You cannot get this in an office environment or a sedentary job, men don’t make connections with each other that way. It has to be shared physical suffering. In my wrestling club we have a way of signalling if we are in need of help mentally. I am lucky and have never used it, I’ve been close sometimes with my wife and my sister both having miscarriages in the same year and me trying to hold the whole family together but I actually managed to talk it out with some friends after training in the changing rooms. The guys in LOTR have all shared in suffering and fighting for the same cause, men arn’t great with empathy but we can see our suffering or happiness reflected in others easily and get EXTREME empathetic feelings.
Damn good post. Trying to think of some from the First Age… Thingol, king of the grey elves of Beleriand, was a bigoted racist asshole to men, and especially to Beren, though that last might be somewhat excused because the little mortal shit had the psycho idea that he could hook up with Thingol’s daughter Luthien; you know, the most beautiful of all living things. The king changed his tune though, after seeing what a badass Beren is and by extension that men are pretty awesome after all, he accepted the marriage of his daughter and this man and gave them his blessing, and later fought with him. He also later took in Turin son of Hurin as a foster son, having explicitly turned around and told the world that men are just as cool as elves ever were, if not more True in typical fashion it took direct evidence within his own household to change his mind, but Avari kings are a hard-headed stubborn lot. We’ll take it
To be fair to Thingol, he had forboding dreams about Men. And some Men killed trees and beasts where the Green-elves lived, to the point that the Green-elves made them leave.
Too bad he didn't stop being a bigoted racist asshole to dwarves. That might have saved his life
Correct me if i'm wrong but he wasn't a "bigoted racist asshole" to the dwarves. He had tasked the dwarves of Nogrod to forge the necklace Nauglamir. After the completion of the necklace, some dwarves wanted the necklace as payment for their work but Thingol refused and the dwarves killed him and stole the necklace. This act caused the rift between elves and dwarves for the ages to come.
He also heavily insulted the dwarves right before they killed him
Yeah because the dwarves were greedy for that necklace
Agreed, but let’s not forget it is also because they put the needs of others before themselves and seek to protect good and fight evil. More traditional take, I know, and they aren’t perfect at it, but manliness isn’t totally separated from hewing orcs in twain 😂😅
Not that you were implying it was ofc
Why not both?
I have never heard anyone say LOTR characters are manly for crying
There's was at least 2 posts saying that in the past 24 hours
It’s also because they chop the heads off of orcs seemingly routinely.
It’s also because they draw their sword and fight like the lives of others depend on it. There’s a big difference between crying before the battle has even begun and crying once the battle is over. And LOTR is full of the latter which is commendable.
That and a pair of testicles.
Stuff can do two things.
Notice the word 'also'
Fair play, carry on.
"People always say that the men of LotR are manly because they cry, or show physical affection to their friends" If true that's insane
We get it, you're very manly and tuff!
I'm not very manly or tough. I don't think crying or showing physical affection makes you manly or less manly other than maybe crying more in general and at particular things can be more feminine. Showing physical affection to friends is similarly common between both genders although expressed differently.
Generally people say something along the lines of “they are REAL men, because REAL men let themselves cry.”
Very strange indeed
They are comfortable in their masculinity. Crying does not diminish your masculinity. It shows that you are human just like everybody else.
Sure I didn't say crying necessarily diminishes your masculinity.
I apologize for the assumption. Why do you think it's insane?