It is original, but also quite unrealistic. Anything flying through the air with a rotating attached rope or chain like that would lose all its energy to drag very quickly.
No argument. Plus, it can easily be overcome by stopping volley fire and firing at will. Fewer arrows will get blocked. Also, the closer the range, the less arc, and soon the defence will be useless (unless you want those whips buzzing through your own troops).
The problem here is the length of the chains. This same mechanism is LITERALLY used on sounding rockets as a mechanism to STOP spinning, by dissipating momentum to a larger radius.
I absolutely love the scene and dwarves are my favorite race, but I could never take this one seriously.
You can see ice skaters do this by adjusting the speed of their pirouette by increasing and decreasing their radius by standing up and cowering down. It’s a key element of skating displays.
I’m a dancer, not an ice skater, but we both do pirouettes. It is centrifugal force that we use in turns, but we actually use our arm position to help control the speed of our turns.
I think the chains would work like our arms and would slow down that device really quickly. If you watch a ballerina or ice skater spin really fast, their arms are tucked in close to their bodies, that way there’s no drag.
But like others have said, it’s a fantasy film so it doesn’t have to be realistic.
it's not about drag, it's angular momentum...
with your arms in you spin fast because the mass is closer to the center. arms out means slower rotation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvLgw-HWn8w
I wonder if someone could do the math. An object with the rotational speed to hit all arrows like that has to complete a rotation atleast once every timeframe it takes for an arrow to travel its own length, probably twice just to be safe..
Arrows travel pretty fast, and that diameter has to be what, 10-15 meters atleast? What would happen if you centered that rotation? How many rotations per second are we talking here?
Are the chains made of pure mithril to be able to endure those forces? Would the universe break?
It's not that you can't have crazy shit like this, but it needs to fit into the world.
If it were elves doing something like this it would be fine, it would just be one more example of minor elven magic; like the lembas bread or the ropes that untie themselves.
The dwarves of middle earth are not very magical, the only notable magic we see from them is Mithril.
That would help for sure, but the point would stay the same. If the rotation was independent from the center bolt, it would have a better time maintaining the spin, but the momentum of the separate spin from the counterweight chain would completely fuck up the trajectory.
I actually find it a very entertaining mind exercise, to try to visualize how something like this could work in detail.
Not only that but it would have only worked the first time. The second time should have taken them a lot longer to reload those ballistae, and in the meantime the elves could have got out many more volleys
It's also likely that when arrows were shot in warfare, they didn't usually shoot them in great arcs like what is portrayed in LOTR and almost every other Hollywood movie. Particularly with the proliferation of heavier armor, the most damage would get done at 25-75 yards with arrows shot in a much flatter arc.
Long range archery did happen, but its main purpose was mindfuckery. You could fend off long arc arrows with a good shield, but what you couldn't do was relax or take your eyes off the enemy line for more than a few seconds. Keeping the enemy primed and tense dulls their fighting edge, or can provoke a disarrayed charge, like someone in football trying to pull the defense offsides.
What they absolutely *didn't* want was an orderly, unified cavalry charge. Several hundred horses and riders thunder towards you wielding weapons designed to concentrate the kinetic energy of a half-ton of horse, an eighth-ton of knight, and about 150 pounds of horse boarding and armor into a steel lance point? No thank you, please. You get a sense of that with the Riders of Rohan, but fully plate armored medieval knights with lances were even more terrifying.
If we're talking realistic warfare, massed volleys of arched arrows at long distance is over represented even in 'realistic' depictions of medieval war. Most long bow archery was done as direct fire at medium to (relatively) close range.
It's absolutely overrepresented. It also doesn't make sense tactically. With waves, enemy infantry can pause and cover up as each wave hits, then move again. With a constant stream, they either have to say covered up, which allows your infantry to maneuver for advantage, or makes them walk through the fire, which will inflict greater casualties.
Assuming your bows and arrows are up to the task of breaking through their armor, of course.
Also, historically, volley fire was never a thing, and I know it’s a fantasy thing, not history, but the physics of the world seem to work pretty similarly to ours, so volley fire wouldn’t be any better there than it was in our world.
Volley fire also notably didn't exist IRL, and you also didn't fire arrows up in a big arc in the air like that since they would lose all of their momentum and basically just be falling at the normal rate of gravity when they land.
Plus arrows aren't going to penetrate plate armor anyway so there's really no purpose for the dwarves to be worried about these arrows in the first place (except that their barding doesn't fully cover their mounts).
But later in this movie the elves all jump over the dwarven shield wall to engage orcs in a chaotic melee, and at another point the elves (?) purposefully let the dwarven cavalry jump over their shield wall into their ranks so like... I don't think realism or practicality is what they were going for
> But later in this movie the elves all jump over the dwarven shield wall to engage orcs in a chaotic melee,
This one probably upset me the most. You have an enemy charging a phalanx from hell and the moronic elves just say "nah, walls of spears and shields are stupid. Lets jump into the middle of the enemy formation instead."
The second I saw that scene, I thought it was really nice for the elves to wait until the dwarves reloaded their giant ballistas and then fire the next volley of arrows.
My apologies brother. I am merely trying to protect our craft from the pointy ears in this thread…
Grungni would be please with those bolts! ROCK AND STONE!
And the better counter is surely something so very dwarven, either just raising your shields or deploying a Roman-style testudo. Would have been a much cooler response than “deploy the whirly whirlies!” or whatever these are.
https://preview.redd.it/pcls6lgg9x9d1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=53471f5e4d08e140500bddb5906e20508ee75175
IMO I always thought of them being more like those fairy toys. They spin the shaft to a high speed and the angle, weight, and momentum of the fans/blades propel them towards the enemy. And having enough weight moving in a rotation that fast would make them an effective gyroscope shield in the air.
Also the range, arc and timing would need to be quite precise to intercept. Easier just to have the Dwarves carry crossbows and fire first. But then again, it's a movie with dragons, wizards, undead, magic rings etc so I can let it go.
I think timing might be forgiven. Longbow arrows fired at an arc would have pretty big air time, probably above 5 seconds. That’s enough for reaction time in the siege engines.
If you want to complain about the trajectory it’s a much better idea to talk about the volley fire. Volley fire is an entirely made up concept for medieval settings with bows. Hollywood took the musket volley fire concept and applied it to bows, when in reality, once the command was given, archers would just shoot at their own pace nonstop.
You cant draw a longbow and hold it steady to wait for a volley. Medieval longbows would just fire at will until they ran out of arrows, and a more accurate depiction would be a constant stream of arrows rather then a single wave.
To copy what I said before about volley fire: that's not true, it happened during Agincourt right before the first line of French knights touched King Henry's army during its initial charge, as it is described that sir Thomas Erpingham ordered the archers to knock an arrow onto their string and wait for his signal.
There are probably more instances that I don't remember off the top of my head, but this is a great example of volley fire.
A couple of good askhistorians threads about volley fire that suggest both of you guys are kind of right.
*"In the hey day of English archery, the first flight of arrows was probably very close together, but released with a slight delay moving out on either side of whoever gave the order to loose. The arrows would, in essence, create a "V" in the air before they struck. Subsequent flights would become less cohesive as the fast archers pulled away from the average archers and the slow archers fell behind, until there was no pattern to the arrows and they would fall randomly and without warning on the enemy soldiers."*
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7dqkbm/comment/dpzyolt/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7dqkbm/comment/dpzyolt/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/rqxa0t/did\_medieval\_archers\_fire\_in\_volleys/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/rqxa0t/did_medieval_archers_fire_in_volleys/)
Any argument about physics and realism is useless in a scenario where mountain goat riding dwarves are fighting immortal wood elves while an army of orcs is coming to claim an mountain were a dragon used to live.
But it is entertaining:D
Remember the scene in Deadpool 2 where cable is shooting Deadpool and Deadpool is spinning his swords around to block the bullets, then when he stops spinning it turns out he is absolutely full of holes? I feel like that's what would happen to the dwarves here.
Bullets go *a little faster* and are *a little smaller* of a target than arrows are.
Edit: Some of you are taking my comment *way* too fuckin' seriously.
bullet diameter = 9mm
bullet speed = 365 m/s
9mm/ 365m/s = 9/365000s
which is the time he has to spin his blade a full round to catch every bullet meaning he would need to spin it at ca. 365000/9/s or around 40.000 times a second.
avg arrow length = 85 cm
speed = 68 m/s
85cm/68m/s = 1/80s
so the spinning things thrown by the dwarves would need to spin at 80 Hz
conclusion:
u/HawkeyeP1 is right that bullets are a lot harder to hit, but 80 rotations for the dwarves things would still be ridiculously fast.
assuming a diameter of 2m which is quite conservative, the edges would move at an ridiculous
2m\*pi\*80Hz = 502 m/s or about 1.807 km/h.
note that all lengths in this comment were just googled averages and not actually measured from movie footage.
Edit: I just realized that the arrow things must have 2 ropes, so they only need to move at 900km/h
Edit 2: corrected a unit
you can't give a rotational measure in m/s.
> avg arrow length = 85 cm
> speed = 68 m/s
So an arrow passes by a point in space in (0.85m / 68m/s = ) 0.0125 seconds
To block a volley the twirly-whirleys would need an arm / wing to pass a point AT LEAST once every 0.0125 seconds. Being extremely generous and assuming each has four wings, and one wing passes through an point every 0.0125 seconds, that's one full rotation every 0.05 seconds.
So a (stationary) 4-winged twirly-whirley would need to be spinning at 20 revolutions/second
Take into account that it's moving at the same velocity as the arrow in the opposite direction and a 4-winged twirly-whirley needs to be spinning at 40 rev/s, and if they're only supposed to have 2 wings 80 rev/s.
Yeah I’m pretty sure that’s what Deadpool 2 was joking about. This is the same film where he goes back in time to shoot that version of him in the head
It’s only in the movie. This whole battle is basically iirc: Elves, Dwarves and humans start fighting whilst Bilbo is hiding with the Ring. Then orcs appear and Gandalf is telling Humans, Dwarves and Elves to fight the orcs together. Bilbo passes out and that’s it.
Edit: Forgive inaccuracies. It’s been years since I’ve read the book.
Nah, in the books there is no fight between elves, dwarves and men. Gandalf appears in a flash of light between the charging armies and urges them to work together against the orcs. So the fight would have happened, but Gandalf intervened.
Which makes much more sense, plot-wise (as many things in the book vs these movies). How are the Elves, Men and Dwarves supposed to reconcile after the battle, if they already killed tens or hundreds of each other before the Orc armies came? There would still be tons of resentment. The book has Dain uphold Thorin's original promises and Bard's demands, and the armies didn't exchange a single blow, instead becoming battle-hardened allies, with newfound mutual respect.
This is an issue with a lot of action movies.
Like the most recent Black Panther too. Two sides fight it out, hundreds of people are killed on screen. And then... No consequences! Nobody has an issue with that a bunch of their friends just died for no reason. Woo hoo!
That drove me bloody nuts. They spent a lot of screen time (appropriately) mourning T’Chala but then zero time for all the children who drowned in the flood, or warriors who died on the boat, not to mention all the underwater folk who surely died.
soldiersfrom both sides stopped fighting ww1 during 1914 Christmas day to play football in no man's land. The details of these dwarves and these humans are of course specific to the story, but *people in general* can absolutely stop fighting and just become friends.
It was the wargs.
So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves.
If I remember correctly, the theatrical release should have been the Battle of Four Armies. I have the memories of thinking "where were the wolves?" and "how do you turn a paragraph into 3 hours and omit things?"
I like how Thranduil looks like he's never seen such a devastating use of force.
Dude was born in the First Age and was in the Battle of the Last Alliance. He's seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Forget living in the age of dragons, Morgoth and peak Sauron. Those dwarves got something that spins chains.
My headcanon is that it was a look of shock at the levels of dwarf insolence, daring to not die to a volley of superior elven arrows.
Also, magic might be fairly norm to the elves, but no one else on ME is as industrialised as the dwarves, so they're probably always coming up with new ways to thwart well established war strategies with some mcguiver shit
Ugh, I don't even remember this scene... I must have blocked it out, even though I couldn't block out the shield wall scene! WTF would you jump in front of a perfectly good shield wall!
Devil's advocate: Pike phalanxes did tend to disrupt some arrows with the back rows of pikes that were kept pointed up (Arrows wobble a lot in flight, so they tended to have some bump into the pikes and get messed up)... It still didn't work well though.
it worked well when they used the power of cloth and kung fu
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpxv-wrMz0s&ab\_channel=Miramax](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpxv-wrMz0s&ab_channel=Miramax)
The whole battle was CGI-heavy and felt extremely dumb/unrealistic. If you compare the this battle to the battle of Helms Deep or the ride of the Rohirrim... Same director, but worlds apart.
tbf, Peter Jackson was given like 1/3rd the time to do all the hobbit movies. He was super frustrated with the company the entire time because they wanted Lotr but for half price :sigh:
I would argue more like 1/6th of the material because even when comparing the hobbit to just one LOTR book isn’t even close to 1:1 in pages or complexity.
Makes sense. Watching 0:19-0:22 in the video gives such uncanny valley vibes. It's obvious that the animators tried to get the physics down, but they weren't given the time to fine tune it.
Right, but *he* took the job. He also helped with the original script so he knew what he was getting into. I find it just a little strange how many people refuse to believe PJ was one of the main driving forces behind the Hobbit trilogy when nothing other than conjecture can back up the other options.
And yet he still signed on, cashed the check, and continued working with the company. I don't think he was that frustrated.
edit: It is a bit odd to me how fans hate to blame PJ for the Hobbit, but the facts are that he knew what he was getting into, he helped Del Toro with the original two-part script, he was okay with splitting it into a trilogy, and he was okay with the company, even producing the upcoming Hunt for Gollum with them. Him being frustrated or not being at fault is all conjecture based on love for the original trilogy.
Yeah except that every single flaw present in the Hobbit is present in the original LotR trilogy to a lesser extent. And all of them are Peter Jackson interpretations or additions.
Even the shit CGI with the orcs instantly dying and ragdolling at mere contact is present in LotR. It's just that due to mostly being very good, we're 100% fine with overlooking a few flaws. But when Peter Jackson tried to fill much, much more empty space with his own additions in the Hobbit, it was way, way too much to ignore. He did NOT need 8 hours of content. That was his doing. And no one made him show hours of fighting, especially fighting that wasn't in the book.
I think even more people were disappointed in expanding it to 3 movies.
The Hobbit book is significantly shorter than even one part of the lord of the rings.
Maybe if they had just stuck to the original book, they could have made 1-2 movies without needing a bunch of cgi.
See, I don't think the cgi itself is the problem, it's the things they decided to use cgi to show. No amount of making the visual effects look more realistic and compelling would have changed the actual terrible content of, say, Legolas on the bridge or the dwarves in goblin town.
Yeah, there was just way too much CGI throughout the whole trilogy... from the juggling plates at the beginning of the first movie to Legolas hopping from stone to stone of a collapsing bridge at the end of the third, it was all one long uncomfortable journey down the uncanny valley.
The rollercoaster ride in the Misty Mountains was where I lost it. It was too silly, and broke too many of the rules established in the LotR cinematic universe. I never did end up watching the last movie, and if this clip is representative of it, I won't watch it going forward.
TV and Movies never ever get heat right. Even in Dante's Inferno, a movie *about volcanoes*, you could stand right next to the lava, unprotected, and be *fine.*
Those Dwarves should all be dead from their burnt-ass lungs and spontaneous combustion just being *close* to molten gold, much less riding it like it's Disneyworld.
I look at it like I look at Legolas radically skating down a staircase while arrowing orcs left and right.
Is it dumb and unrealistic? Yes.
Is it extremely fuckin' cool to look at and do I have a huge smile while watching it? Also yes.
I’m with you mate. Very cool and very fun. Like the monster truck in Furiosa, Godzilla fighting King Kong, the oliphaunts in ROTK - as long as they fit, I’m happy to suspend disbelief over the minor details of logistics for the sake of coolness.
AFAIK it was original. But IMO it belongs in the Warhammer universe, not Middle Earth.
I recall doing a facepalm in the theater when I first saw it. Just another example of how over-the-top some scenes in The Hobbit movies were.
It was in the extended edition, so not sure if you saw it in theaters
But from what I can tell the point of that scene was to demonstrate the ingenuity of dwarves AND that they have a history with Elf combat tactics
They don't. The only time Dwarves came to blow with Elves was in the First Age; some 7000 years before. Their tactics would have been entirely directed to fighting orcs. Under the ground, too, which is why I cringed at the pikemen. (LOL... Dwarven pikemen. Sigh.)
I loved the shieldwall though.
I've always imagined Dwarves as individual fighters, clad in heavy armor, with tool-like two-handed weapons warhammers, mattocks, picks and the like) for use underground. Much like how Tolkien described them. It would make far more sense than the army we saw in the movie.
> which is why I cringed at the pikemen. (LOL... Dwarven pikemen. Sigh.)
Long spears are an excellent choice for holding chokepoints.
Now two-handed weapons, that would be impractical and I don't think Tolkien ever mentioned that. Spears however are specifically mentioned in Durins Song.
> Buckler and corslet, axe and sword,
And shining spears were laid in hoard.
I always imagined them to be well-diciplined fighters who would excel under conditions that required a lot of willpower and sturdyness, like fighting in formation. Tactics like an imperial age roman legionaire perhaps.
>Long spears are an excellent choice for holding chokepoints.
Short spears, yes, with shields. Long spears or pikes, you keep banging the buggers against everything in a mine, hall or tunnel! I've re-enacted as a pikeman, let me tell you that even in open streets, they're a bother to carry around, especially in formation.
Of course, in small, confined spaces like mines and Dwarven halls, you could easily hold a position with a shield wall and swords alone (much like the Romans did against unarmoured opponents, like I presume most Orc forces were. Unlike the movies, but that armour was made of paper anyway).
>Now two-handed weapons, that would be impractical and I don't think Tolkien ever mentioned that. Spears however are specifically mentioned in Durins Song.
He did mention the mattock as the primary arm of the Iron Hills Dwarves in the book. And I'm not sure about impractical, to be honest. A spontoon, or short halberd would do wonders in confined spaces ( seeing as they're stabbing weapons).
Spears would of course be very handy to have. Those could be deployed for defense but also thrown at really big buggers like cave trolls.
>I always imagined them to be well-diciplined fighters who would excel under conditions that required a lot of willpower and sturdyness, like fighting in formation. Tactics like an imperial age roman legionaire perhaps.
Yes, me too. I like to think the shield wall is absolutely essential in underground warfare, both in offense and in defense.
It may have had a point, but that doesn't make it good. Ironically, the fact that the writers couldn't come up with a less ridiculous defense against arrows shows a *lack* of ingenuity on their part.
I don’t think this even belongs in Warhammer. Makes me think of an over-the-top Bollywood action movie. Right up there with catapulting soldiers over the walls.
warhammer has govblin kamikaze glider
and a semi auto catapult machine that launched axes at high speeeds
its in line with warhammer some would cal it tame in comparison
That’s actually perfect summary! Funny thing is has movie been set in warhammer universe no one would bat an eye at that, hell, there would be even moaning a) why we don’t have model released for that yet b) it’s pretty low lethality contraption for the setting.
Seriously perfect summary thank you that’s why I don’t like hobbit.
> I recall doing a facepalm in the theater when I first saw it.
by this point, for me, i had completely given up on the Hobbit trilogy and i was just there for the stupidity of it. this did it for me.
Feel like the elves would've fired a second volley at the oncoming boar riders but I guess it made more sense for them to shoot at the machines firing the missiles. The things had to have a payload with that kind of impact. God I hated those movies. Except for Lee Pace as Thranduil- perfect casting.
The ballista bolts descend into the ranks of elves right after. Even a highly trained force would have trouble recovering from something that breaks lines like those admittedly ridiculous anti-archer weapons do lol
Im aware, that's why I said the bolts had to have some kind of black powder payload to create that kind of destruction when they land. It threw elves 20ft back. If the orks had those bolts at helms deep, Rohan would've fallen a lot faster.
It’s like 10 bolts and chains. The elves regrouped after being blown up by an actual bomb in TTT and charge.
Nothing about this movie or battle makes sense even from a fantastical internal logic perspective. Its idiotic and sucks
this whole movie looked like a cutscene from a platformer game, and had just about as much plot. the hobbit is one of my favourite books of all time but these movies were honestly dreadful
It was made up for the movie, and is another example of the kind of thing that makes the Hobbit movies awful compared to the book or the original trilogy.
So there’s this thing that is in fantasy and in real life called a wooden board. People have been using them for a while. Especially effective when everybody holds theirs up at once.
If this is some of the shit that ended up in the 3rd Hobbit movie then I'm glad I gave up on it after the 2nd one.
This is some pretty dumb and unrealistic garbage, even by Hobbit trilogy standards.
You know what's crazy? We've had anti arrow technology for tens of thousands of years, it's extremely effective, and can be made by almost any tech level.
It's called
A. FUCKING. SHIELD.
It is original, but also quite unrealistic. Anything flying through the air with a rotating attached rope or chain like that would lose all its energy to drag very quickly.
No argument. Plus, it can easily be overcome by stopping volley fire and firing at will. Fewer arrows will get blocked. Also, the closer the range, the less arc, and soon the defence will be useless (unless you want those whips buzzing through your own troops).
The problem here is the length of the chains. This same mechanism is LITERALLY used on sounding rockets as a mechanism to STOP spinning, by dissipating momentum to a larger radius. I absolutely love the scene and dwarves are my favorite race, but I could never take this one seriously.
You can see ice skaters do this by adjusting the speed of their pirouette by increasing and decreasing their radius by standing up and cowering down. It’s a key element of skating displays.
That's just Centrifugal force right?
I’m a dancer, not an ice skater, but we both do pirouettes. It is centrifugal force that we use in turns, but we actually use our arm position to help control the speed of our turns. I think the chains would work like our arms and would slow down that device really quickly. If you watch a ballerina or ice skater spin really fast, their arms are tucked in close to their bodies, that way there’s no drag. But like others have said, it’s a fantasy film so it doesn’t have to be realistic.
it's not about drag, it's angular momentum... with your arms in you spin fast because the mass is closer to the center. arms out means slower rotation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvLgw-HWn8w
You’re right. I spaced on the correct term for it.
But what if the chains would be made out of mithril?
It's well known that mithril has anti drag and angular momentum properties. We just need to find some prove all these haters wrong!
I wonder if someone could do the math. An object with the rotational speed to hit all arrows like that has to complete a rotation atleast once every timeframe it takes for an arrow to travel its own length, probably twice just to be safe.. Arrows travel pretty fast, and that diameter has to be what, 10-15 meters atleast? What would happen if you centered that rotation? How many rotations per second are we talking here? Are the chains made of pure mithril to be able to endure those forces? Would the universe break?
Don’t tell me it’s zouk right.
Conservation of angular momentum
No, its rotational inertia. The further mass is from the axis of rotation - the more force it takes to increase object's rate of rotation.
And that's why I hate that scene. It's too ridiculous.
The whole hobbit trilogy is ridiculous
Theres magic swords and shit...
Confirmed, the rules of physics have no meaning on Tolkien's stories. Boah how I hate this argument.
[удалено]
It's not that you can't have crazy shit like this, but it needs to fit into the world. If it were elves doing something like this it would be fine, it would just be one more example of minor elven magic; like the lembas bread or the ropes that untie themselves. The dwarves of middle earth are not very magical, the only notable magic we see from them is Mithril.
Unless the dwarves invented the ball bearing, lol
That would help for sure, but the point would stay the same. If the rotation was independent from the center bolt, it would have a better time maintaining the spin, but the momentum of the separate spin from the counterweight chain would completely fuck up the trajectory. I actually find it a very entertaining mind exercise, to try to visualize how something like this could work in detail.
Not only that but it would have only worked the first time. The second time should have taken them a lot longer to reload those ballistae, and in the meantime the elves could have got out many more volleys
It's also likely that when arrows were shot in warfare, they didn't usually shoot them in great arcs like what is portrayed in LOTR and almost every other Hollywood movie. Particularly with the proliferation of heavier armor, the most damage would get done at 25-75 yards with arrows shot in a much flatter arc.
Long range archery did happen, but its main purpose was mindfuckery. You could fend off long arc arrows with a good shield, but what you couldn't do was relax or take your eyes off the enemy line for more than a few seconds. Keeping the enemy primed and tense dulls their fighting edge, or can provoke a disarrayed charge, like someone in football trying to pull the defense offsides. What they absolutely *didn't* want was an orderly, unified cavalry charge. Several hundred horses and riders thunder towards you wielding weapons designed to concentrate the kinetic energy of a half-ton of horse, an eighth-ton of knight, and about 150 pounds of horse boarding and armor into a steel lance point? No thank you, please. You get a sense of that with the Riders of Rohan, but fully plate armored medieval knights with lances were even more terrifying.
If we're talking realistic warfare, massed volleys of arched arrows at long distance is over represented even in 'realistic' depictions of medieval war. Most long bow archery was done as direct fire at medium to (relatively) close range.
It's absolutely overrepresented. It also doesn't make sense tactically. With waves, enemy infantry can pause and cover up as each wave hits, then move again. With a constant stream, they either have to say covered up, which allows your infantry to maneuver for advantage, or makes them walk through the fire, which will inflict greater casualties. Assuming your bows and arrows are up to the task of breaking through their armor, of course.
Also, historically, volley fire was never a thing, and I know it’s a fantasy thing, not history, but the physics of the world seem to work pretty similarly to ours, so volley fire wouldn’t be any better there than it was in our world.
Volley fire also notably didn't exist IRL, and you also didn't fire arrows up in a big arc in the air like that since they would lose all of their momentum and basically just be falling at the normal rate of gravity when they land. Plus arrows aren't going to penetrate plate armor anyway so there's really no purpose for the dwarves to be worried about these arrows in the first place (except that their barding doesn't fully cover their mounts). But later in this movie the elves all jump over the dwarven shield wall to engage orcs in a chaotic melee, and at another point the elves (?) purposefully let the dwarven cavalry jump over their shield wall into their ranks so like... I don't think realism or practicality is what they were going for
> But later in this movie the elves all jump over the dwarven shield wall to engage orcs in a chaotic melee, This one probably upset me the most. You have an enemy charging a phalanx from hell and the moronic elves just say "nah, walls of spears and shields are stupid. Lets jump into the middle of the enemy formation instead."
The second I saw that scene, I thought it was really nice for the elves to wait until the dwarves reloaded their giant ballistas and then fire the next volley of arrows.
Your simple mind cant understand dwarven technology. That's going in the book.
My apologies brother. I am merely trying to protect our craft from the pointy ears in this thread… Grungni would be please with those bolts! ROCK AND STONE!
Did I hear a rock and stone?
For Carl!
And the better counter is surely something so very dwarven, either just raising your shields or deploying a Roman-style testudo. Would have been a much cooler response than “deploy the whirly whirlies!” or whatever these are.
https://preview.redd.it/pcls6lgg9x9d1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=53471f5e4d08e140500bddb5906e20508ee75175 IMO I always thought of them being more like those fairy toys. They spin the shaft to a high speed and the angle, weight, and momentum of the fans/blades propel them towards the enemy. And having enough weight moving in a rotation that fast would make them an effective gyroscope shield in the air.
Also the range, arc and timing would need to be quite precise to intercept. Easier just to have the Dwarves carry crossbows and fire first. But then again, it's a movie with dragons, wizards, undead, magic rings etc so I can let it go.
it looks cheesy even for a fantasy movie. no ones bothered by the usual fantasy stuff.
I think timing might be forgiven. Longbow arrows fired at an arc would have pretty big air time, probably above 5 seconds. That’s enough for reaction time in the siege engines. If you want to complain about the trajectory it’s a much better idea to talk about the volley fire. Volley fire is an entirely made up concept for medieval settings with bows. Hollywood took the musket volley fire concept and applied it to bows, when in reality, once the command was given, archers would just shoot at their own pace nonstop. You cant draw a longbow and hold it steady to wait for a volley. Medieval longbows would just fire at will until they ran out of arrows, and a more accurate depiction would be a constant stream of arrows rather then a single wave.
To copy what I said before about volley fire: that's not true, it happened during Agincourt right before the first line of French knights touched King Henry's army during its initial charge, as it is described that sir Thomas Erpingham ordered the archers to knock an arrow onto their string and wait for his signal. There are probably more instances that I don't remember off the top of my head, but this is a great example of volley fire.
A couple of good askhistorians threads about volley fire that suggest both of you guys are kind of right. *"In the hey day of English archery, the first flight of arrows was probably very close together, but released with a slight delay moving out on either side of whoever gave the order to loose. The arrows would, in essence, create a "V" in the air before they struck. Subsequent flights would become less cohesive as the fast archers pulled away from the average archers and the slow archers fell behind, until there was no pattern to the arrows and they would fall randomly and without warning on the enemy soldiers."* [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7dqkbm/comment/dpzyolt/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7dqkbm/comment/dpzyolt/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/rqxa0t/did\_medieval\_archers\_fire\_in\_volleys/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/rqxa0t/did_medieval_archers_fire_in_volleys/)
Any argument about physics and realism is useless in a scenario where mountain goat riding dwarves are fighting immortal wood elves while an army of orcs is coming to claim an mountain were a dragon used to live. But it is entertaining:D
I disagree. Physics still exist, and is applied in that world, as in ours. Sure, that world _also_ has magic, but it isn't used in this scenario.
Also the idea that you can aim a ballista accurately enough or at a high enough angle to shoot down an incoming volley of arrows is ridiculous.
Yeah but these are *dwarven* ballistae
technically they had the high ground
magic! Mithril!
Each link of the chain has an antidrag rune carved into it allowing magic to negate the physics of Arda.
you'd need a crazy force to keep the thrust of the object going forward like that.
Remember the scene in Deadpool 2 where cable is shooting Deadpool and Deadpool is spinning his swords around to block the bullets, then when he stops spinning it turns out he is absolutely full of holes? I feel like that's what would happen to the dwarves here.
Bullets go *a little faster* and are *a little smaller* of a target than arrows are. Edit: Some of you are taking my comment *way* too fuckin' seriously.
Gonna need to see some math to prove your statement bro.
bullet diameter = 9mm bullet speed = 365 m/s 9mm/ 365m/s = 9/365000s which is the time he has to spin his blade a full round to catch every bullet meaning he would need to spin it at ca. 365000/9/s or around 40.000 times a second. avg arrow length = 85 cm speed = 68 m/s 85cm/68m/s = 1/80s so the spinning things thrown by the dwarves would need to spin at 80 Hz conclusion: u/HawkeyeP1 is right that bullets are a lot harder to hit, but 80 rotations for the dwarves things would still be ridiculously fast. assuming a diameter of 2m which is quite conservative, the edges would move at an ridiculous 2m\*pi\*80Hz = 502 m/s or about 1.807 km/h. note that all lengths in this comment were just googled averages and not actually measured from movie footage. Edit: I just realized that the arrow things must have 2 ropes, so they only need to move at 900km/h Edit 2: corrected a unit
> they only need to move at 900km/h perfectly plausible then
r/theydidthemath
/r/theydidthemonstermath
/r/itwasagraveyardgraph
/r/dontfuckingsayit
/r/toolate
you can't give a rotational measure in m/s. > avg arrow length = 85 cm > speed = 68 m/s So an arrow passes by a point in space in (0.85m / 68m/s = ) 0.0125 seconds To block a volley the twirly-whirleys would need an arm / wing to pass a point AT LEAST once every 0.0125 seconds. Being extremely generous and assuming each has four wings, and one wing passes through an point every 0.0125 seconds, that's one full rotation every 0.05 seconds. So a (stationary) 4-winged twirly-whirley would need to be spinning at 20 revolutions/second Take into account that it's moving at the same velocity as the arrow in the opposite direction and a 4-winged twirly-whirley needs to be spinning at 40 rev/s, and if they're only supposed to have 2 wings 80 rev/s.
And I thought my Monday was slow
Yes but that doesn't matter since the spinny things here would completely lose all rotary momentum due to drag and stop spinning almost right away.
Yeeeaaah but stopping 50 out of 100 arrows is still 50 people saved
He did do it in wolverine origins tho lol
Yeah I’m pretty sure that’s what Deadpool 2 was joking about. This is the same film where he goes back in time to shoot that version of him in the head
anyone got the vid ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lmjjuJlhW8
Lmao, the way he says "those bullets are like super fast" while he's winded as fuck cracks me up
It’s only in the movie. This whole battle is basically iirc: Elves, Dwarves and humans start fighting whilst Bilbo is hiding with the Ring. Then orcs appear and Gandalf is telling Humans, Dwarves and Elves to fight the orcs together. Bilbo passes out and that’s it. Edit: Forgive inaccuracies. It’s been years since I’ve read the book.
Nah, in the books there is no fight between elves, dwarves and men. Gandalf appears in a flash of light between the charging armies and urges them to work together against the orcs. So the fight would have happened, but Gandalf intervened.
Which makes much more sense, plot-wise (as many things in the book vs these movies). How are the Elves, Men and Dwarves supposed to reconcile after the battle, if they already killed tens or hundreds of each other before the Orc armies came? There would still be tons of resentment. The book has Dain uphold Thorin's original promises and Bard's demands, and the armies didn't exchange a single blow, instead becoming battle-hardened allies, with newfound mutual respect.
This is an issue with a lot of action movies. Like the most recent Black Panther too. Two sides fight it out, hundreds of people are killed on screen. And then... No consequences! Nobody has an issue with that a bunch of their friends just died for no reason. Woo hoo!
That drove me bloody nuts. They spent a lot of screen time (appropriately) mourning T’Chala but then zero time for all the children who drowned in the flood, or warriors who died on the boat, not to mention all the underwater folk who surely died.
soldiersfrom both sides stopped fighting ww1 during 1914 Christmas day to play football in no man's land. The details of these dwarves and these humans are of course specific to the story, but *people in general* can absolutely stop fighting and just become friends.
"Bows twanged and arrows whistled"
Bruh the very next line is like “Battle was *about* to be joined” before Gandalf appears in a flash between the armies
I think "joined" is the key word there. They exchanged fire, and were about to engage in hand to hand combat before Gandalf stopped them.
Nothing but a little skirmishing between friends.
So where do you suppose those arrows landed?
Over the Hill and across the water, obviously
Somehow, my idiot brain read that as, "Over the river and through the woods," at first and I thought, "Man, Grandma's house got fucked!"
twinked offf of shields and armor
They conveniently flew right back into their quivers
So elves, dwarves, humans, and orcs. What's the fifth army?
The Spanish.
[https://youtu.be/yKQ\_sQKBASM?si=TDRkSSeKI9nPFjDF](https://youtu.be/yKQ_sQKBASM?si=TDRkSSeKI9nPFjDF)
I knew in my heart even before I clicked.
Is it the thing nobody expects?
It was the wargs. So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves.
If I remember correctly, the theatrical release should have been the Battle of Four Armies. I have the memories of thinking "where were the wolves?" and "how do you turn a paragraph into 3 hours and omit things?"
Oh God, that is a perfect summary of the entire movie. Thank you, and your reptile Lord.
They add a bunch of bullshit that adds nothing to the actual story.
The friends we made along the way
Eagles
Bilbo is knocked out.
I like how Thranduil looks like he's never seen such a devastating use of force. Dude was born in the First Age and was in the Battle of the Last Alliance. He's seen things you people wouldn't believe. Forget living in the age of dragons, Morgoth and peak Sauron. Those dwarves got something that spins chains.
My headcanon is that it was a look of shock at the levels of dwarf insolence, daring to not die to a volley of superior elven arrows. Also, magic might be fairly norm to the elves, but no one else on ME is as industrialised as the dwarves, so they're probably always coming up with new ways to thwart well established war strategies with some mcguiver shit
Exactly this. He is not surprised, he is _pissed_ that it worked.
https://preview.redd.it/73otwbog6y9d1.jpeg?width=177&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b2cbcdb20daa7c4bf0c7e801b7f992b839b8c922
mfw twirly whirlies
Nice.
He is one arrogant bastard who totally seems prone to underestimating his enemies though
> He's seen things you people wouldn't believe. If that was indeed an ohforf reference I’ll just let you know that I got it.
It's a [Blade Runner reference](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tears_in_rain_monologue)
Well you see it's a low effort movie tactic designed to elicit the same response from the viewer.
The old starwars "spin the lightsaber fast" trick
Ugh, I don't even remember this scene... I must have blocked it out, even though I couldn't block out the shield wall scene! WTF would you jump in front of a perfectly good shield wall! Devil's advocate: Pike phalanxes did tend to disrupt some arrows with the back rows of pikes that were kept pointed up (Arrows wobble a lot in flight, so they tended to have some bump into the pikes and get messed up)... It still didn't work well though.
I also don’t remember it… maybe extended edition?
Wait, they did extended editions of the hobbit trilogy?
Yeah, they’re even worse.
Is this from the hobbit movies? The CG looks very.... dated.
It wasn't good when they came out either
You mean the old twiddley-diddlies?
*twirlly whirllies
Had to scroll way too far down to find this 🤣
Yes, its original.
I read somewhere the Chinese tried to do that irl with catastrophic results in ancient times. Nice idea, awful implementation.
it worked well when they used the power of cloth and kung fu [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpxv-wrMz0s&ab\_channel=Miramax](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpxv-wrMz0s&ab_channel=Miramax)
lol even if the magic of Kung Fu was real...they could've just stayed indoors and not wasted so much energy defending...the siding on their building?
We have anti-arrow technology in real life. We usually call it shields and armor and walls tho
It's original yes. It's so dumb, but so cool to look at
The whole battle was CGI-heavy and felt extremely dumb/unrealistic. If you compare the this battle to the battle of Helms Deep or the ride of the Rohirrim... Same director, but worlds apart.
tbf, Peter Jackson was given like 1/3rd the time to do all the hobbit movies. He was super frustrated with the company the entire time because they wanted Lotr but for half price :sigh:
And like 1/5 of the source material, but still make 3 movies.
I would argue more like 1/6th of the material because even when comparing the hobbit to just one LOTR book isn’t even close to 1:1 in pages or complexity.
Makes sense. Watching 0:19-0:22 in the video gives such uncanny valley vibes. It's obvious that the animators tried to get the physics down, but they weren't given the time to fine tune it.
He also had to work with someone else's screenplay and stuff. He was brought in because the other guy wanted out or already left.
Right, but *he* took the job. He also helped with the original script so he knew what he was getting into. I find it just a little strange how many people refuse to believe PJ was one of the main driving forces behind the Hobbit trilogy when nothing other than conjecture can back up the other options.
And yet he still signed on, cashed the check, and continued working with the company. I don't think he was that frustrated. edit: It is a bit odd to me how fans hate to blame PJ for the Hobbit, but the facts are that he knew what he was getting into, he helped Del Toro with the original two-part script, he was okay with splitting it into a trilogy, and he was okay with the company, even producing the upcoming Hunt for Gollum with them. Him being frustrated or not being at fault is all conjecture based on love for the original trilogy.
Yeah except that every single flaw present in the Hobbit is present in the original LotR trilogy to a lesser extent. And all of them are Peter Jackson interpretations or additions. Even the shit CGI with the orcs instantly dying and ragdolling at mere contact is present in LotR. It's just that due to mostly being very good, we're 100% fine with overlooking a few flaws. But when Peter Jackson tried to fill much, much more empty space with his own additions in the Hobbit, it was way, way too much to ignore. He did NOT need 8 hours of content. That was his doing. And no one made him show hours of fighting, especially fighting that wasn't in the book.
The whole Hobbit trilogy was super CGI heavy, and that’s what disappointed LotR fans I feel.
I think even more people were disappointed in expanding it to 3 movies. The Hobbit book is significantly shorter than even one part of the lord of the rings. Maybe if they had just stuck to the original book, they could have made 1-2 movies without needing a bunch of cgi.
See, I don't think the cgi itself is the problem, it's the things they decided to use cgi to show. No amount of making the visual effects look more realistic and compelling would have changed the actual terrible content of, say, Legolas on the bridge or the dwarves in goblin town.
It disappointed Ian McKellan too. IIRC, one day he found himself acting alone on a greenscreen set and it brought him to tears.
Yeah, there was just way too much CGI throughout the whole trilogy... from the juggling plates at the beginning of the first movie to Legolas hopping from stone to stone of a collapsing bridge at the end of the third, it was all one long uncomfortable journey down the uncanny valley.
The rollercoaster ride in the Misty Mountains was where I lost it. It was too silly, and broke too many of the rules established in the LotR cinematic universe. I never did end up watching the last movie, and if this clip is representative of it, I won't watch it going forward.
You can read the whole book in less time than it takes to watch the movies, nothing of value has been lost.
Swimming through molten gold in improvised boats made of metal is the scene that got me
TV and Movies never ever get heat right. Even in Dante's Inferno, a movie *about volcanoes*, you could stand right next to the lava, unprotected, and be *fine.* Those Dwarves should all be dead from their burnt-ass lungs and spontaneous combustion just being *close* to molten gold, much less riding it like it's Disneyworld.
Oh yeah I agree about everything negative one can possibly say about it! It was still cool though lol
I look at it like I look at Legolas radically skating down a staircase while arrowing orcs left and right. Is it dumb and unrealistic? Yes. Is it extremely fuckin' cool to look at and do I have a huge smile while watching it? Also yes.
It's why fantasy RPGs tend to use "hero points". Or why nobody in action films ever takes a poop. Except Danny Glover in Lethal Weapon II.
I’m with you mate. Very cool and very fun. Like the monster truck in Furiosa, Godzilla fighting King Kong, the oliphaunts in ROTK - as long as they fit, I’m happy to suspend disbelief over the minor details of logistics for the sake of coolness.
AFAIK it was original. But IMO it belongs in the Warhammer universe, not Middle Earth. I recall doing a facepalm in the theater when I first saw it. Just another example of how over-the-top some scenes in The Hobbit movies were.
It was in the extended edition, so not sure if you saw it in theaters But from what I can tell the point of that scene was to demonstrate the ingenuity of dwarves AND that they have a history with Elf combat tactics
Dwarves are so stubborn then defy physics
Natural sprinters, I hear
They don't. The only time Dwarves came to blow with Elves was in the First Age; some 7000 years before. Their tactics would have been entirely directed to fighting orcs. Under the ground, too, which is why I cringed at the pikemen. (LOL... Dwarven pikemen. Sigh.) I loved the shieldwall though. I've always imagined Dwarves as individual fighters, clad in heavy armor, with tool-like two-handed weapons warhammers, mattocks, picks and the like) for use underground. Much like how Tolkien described them. It would make far more sense than the army we saw in the movie.
> which is why I cringed at the pikemen. (LOL... Dwarven pikemen. Sigh.) Long spears are an excellent choice for holding chokepoints. Now two-handed weapons, that would be impractical and I don't think Tolkien ever mentioned that. Spears however are specifically mentioned in Durins Song. > Buckler and corslet, axe and sword, And shining spears were laid in hoard. I always imagined them to be well-diciplined fighters who would excel under conditions that required a lot of willpower and sturdyness, like fighting in formation. Tactics like an imperial age roman legionaire perhaps.
>Long spears are an excellent choice for holding chokepoints. Short spears, yes, with shields. Long spears or pikes, you keep banging the buggers against everything in a mine, hall or tunnel! I've re-enacted as a pikeman, let me tell you that even in open streets, they're a bother to carry around, especially in formation. Of course, in small, confined spaces like mines and Dwarven halls, you could easily hold a position with a shield wall and swords alone (much like the Romans did against unarmoured opponents, like I presume most Orc forces were. Unlike the movies, but that armour was made of paper anyway). >Now two-handed weapons, that would be impractical and I don't think Tolkien ever mentioned that. Spears however are specifically mentioned in Durins Song. He did mention the mattock as the primary arm of the Iron Hills Dwarves in the book. And I'm not sure about impractical, to be honest. A spontoon, or short halberd would do wonders in confined spaces ( seeing as they're stabbing weapons). Spears would of course be very handy to have. Those could be deployed for defense but also thrown at really big buggers like cave trolls. >I always imagined them to be well-diciplined fighters who would excel under conditions that required a lot of willpower and sturdyness, like fighting in formation. Tactics like an imperial age roman legionaire perhaps. Yes, me too. I like to think the shield wall is absolutely essential in underground warfare, both in offense and in defense.
Yes I love the shieldwall, and then cringed at the elves jumping over it
Ugh, yes... Why didn't they just form their own shield wall next to it? They could have held the entire Orc force that way.
It may have had a point, but that doesn't make it good. Ironically, the fact that the writers couldn't come up with a less ridiculous defense against arrows shows a *lack* of ingenuity on their part.
You know what's even more effective at stopping arrows? Shields, which the dwarves had but didn't bother using on the arrows for some reason.
I don’t think this even belongs in Warhammer. Makes me think of an over-the-top Bollywood action movie. Right up there with catapulting soldiers over the walls.
>Right up there with catapulting soldiers over the walls. That does seem like a very warhammer thing to do.
Maybe for goblins. And I think it usually results in them being essentially kamikaze pilots
Dwarfs also lob gobbos with their gob-lobbers.
Now i gotta download Total war warhammer again thanks a lot dude...
The Nation calls!
"This is a Gob-lobber, it lobs gobbos!"
warhammer has govblin kamikaze glider and a semi auto catapult machine that launched axes at high speeeds its in line with warhammer some would cal it tame in comparison
That’s actually perfect summary! Funny thing is has movie been set in warhammer universe no one would bat an eye at that, hell, there would be even moaning a) why we don’t have model released for that yet b) it’s pretty low lethality contraption for the setting. Seriously perfect summary thank you that’s why I don’t like hobbit.
> AFAIK it was original. But IMO it belongs in the Warhammer universe, not Middle Earth. That whole movie has more in common with Warhammer.
> I recall doing a facepalm in the theater when I first saw it. by this point, for me, i had completely given up on the Hobbit trilogy and i was just there for the stupidity of it. this did it for me.
Feel like the elves would've fired a second volley at the oncoming boar riders but I guess it made more sense for them to shoot at the machines firing the missiles. The things had to have a payload with that kind of impact. God I hated those movies. Except for Lee Pace as Thranduil- perfect casting.
The ballista bolts descend into the ranks of elves right after. Even a highly trained force would have trouble recovering from something that breaks lines like those admittedly ridiculous anti-archer weapons do lol
Im aware, that's why I said the bolts had to have some kind of black powder payload to create that kind of destruction when they land. It threw elves 20ft back. If the orks had those bolts at helms deep, Rohan would've fallen a lot faster.
It’s like 10 bolts and chains. The elves regrouped after being blown up by an actual bomb in TTT and charge. Nothing about this movie or battle makes sense even from a fantastical internal logic perspective. Its idiotic and sucks
Its weird to be old enough to watch all my beloved franchises devolve into utter nonsense.
Damn, I forgot how shitty this battle looks.
Over reliance on soulless CGI compared to the og trilogy and its passionate practical effects
Man, these movies were crap.
My Lord of the Rings universe is the Hobbit cartoon, followed by the 3 movies. I don't acknowledge the existence of anything else.
It's so hard to believe it's the same director.
This "anti-arrow" technology has absolutely nothing to do with Tolkien. It's original to the PJ Hobbit cinematic universe.
Man, the CGI ages like milk ...
It looked bad at the time
this whole movie looked like a cutscene from a platformer game, and had just about as much plot. the hobbit is one of my favourite books of all time but these movies were honestly dreadful
It's stupid. Also dwarven cavalry? Preposterous!
i know i watched this but i was so fucken bored i put that shit in the trash in of my mind to be replaced as soon as possible
Elf bro could've just been like "fire at will"
Oh god, I am so glad that I never watched this movie. Suffered through the first two and wagered that this one was not worth the time. Yikes.
It was made up for the movie, and is another example of the kind of thing that makes the Hobbit movies awful compared to the book or the original trilogy.
So there’s this thing that is in fantasy and in real life called a wooden board. People have been using them for a while. Especially effective when everybody holds theirs up at once.
Yeah, they're very allergic to shields and they only exist to decorate the sides of their horses as seen in the death charge.
God this whole scene just saddens me. Where is the realism and tension and fear and feeling of the battles in LotR.
I hated everything about this battle. I know it's fantasy but no part of it made the slightest bit of sense.
Is this rings of power? Looks like SHIT
If this is some of the shit that ended up in the 3rd Hobbit movie then I'm glad I gave up on it after the 2nd one. This is some pretty dumb and unrealistic garbage, even by Hobbit trilogy standards.
Damn, i am glad that i stopped after the second Hobbit movie and never saw the third.
All I know is all this CGI is horrible
Such a BS movie… everything’s made in CGI, it looks like a computer game…
I don't remember seeing that scene in the movie. Is it in the extended version or is my memory failing me?
Yes, the Extended Edition features major extensions to the battle.
Like it wasn't too long and drawn out already....
It’s so dumb but damn does it look cool. Like uhh elves. Maybe don’t. Volley fire and/or arch it. Still such a cool thought.
You know what's crazy? We've had anti arrow technology for tens of thousands of years, it's extremely effective, and can be made by almost any tech level. It's called A. FUCKING. SHIELD.