My head canon is nobody have a countermeasure if the eagles got corrupted by the ring. The fellowship will just go splat against the ground and the world will have to deal with a stealth bomber in addition to all the other problems.
Maybe, I know he famously said they were a dangerous literary device he had created and used only as much as he required to keep the story interesting.
If by "required to keep the story interesting" he meant "deus-ex-machina the return trip," then totally.
I appreciate the effort that fandoms exert to salve their cognitive dissonance over obvious plot holes, but in my opinion, a justification doesn't count unless Tolkien wrote it.
For the record, I'm not coming at you here; I'm just joining the conversation with my thoughts.
Except Tolkien does include an explanation for it, and it isn't anything wild or crazy. It's bows and secrecy.
The eagles say they don't fly over mirkwood because people have bows and will shoot at them and they don't like being shot at. Simple as that.
Now, with that established (physical harm and aversion to getting shot at), it very easily stands to reason that if they don't like some bows being shot at them, they definitely wouldn't like an army of bows shooting at them in mordor. They probably also wouldn't like picking fights with fell beasts.
On top of that, Tolkien establishes the need for secrecy during the council meeting when the suggestion that Glorfindel go with the company is shot down for that reason. It stands to reason that if secrecy is so important that a single elf, even if it is Glorfindel, shouldn't go with (and we know Sauron has spies everywhere), eagles flying hither and thither isn't a great idea either.
Don't they rescue Frodo and Sam from Mordor in the climax of danger? It's been a long time since I read LotR, but I believe that this is how they escape Mount Doom. Seems neither safe nor stealthy.
Yeah, while the Urukhai army is in their home territory, fighting an active war. The anti-air threat comes primarily from Sauron's forces--not Sauron himself.
I honestly don't remember. I just think that argument is a bit of a stretch. Anyway, it's not important to fill plot holes--or to uncover them. LotR is a great work despite the questionable ending. C'est la fiction.
Good discussion anyway.
Once the ring is destroyed, there's no need for secrecy. When the ring is destroyed, all the orcs are demoralised and start to flee, but they're also very intentionally being distracted (far from mount doom) by the forces at the Black Gate. The Nazgul also are lost as the ring no longer binds them.
You could certainly say there is still danger, but it is much lessened. With that in mind, and no need for secrecy, it isn't absurd that they'd swoop in at that point.
Beyond that, there is also a theory that Manwë sent them in at that fateful time, but I don't recall if that's directly written.
"If by "required to keep the story interesting" he meant "deus-ex-machina the return trip," then totally."
That's exactly what he meant, but Deus Ex Machina wasn't a well used term at the time so he didn't use it. He simply called the eagles a Dangerous machine, which one can translate into Deus Ex Machina over time.
"I appreciate the effort that fandoms exert to salve their cognitive dissonance over obvious plot holes, but in my opinion, it doesn't count unless Tolkien wrote it."
This is what he said about the eagles, nobody in his time asked about this or thought it was a plot hole. He was just expressing his thoughts about the use of the eagles.
As for "plot holes" any time they were used it's because they were already in the area fighting Sauron on behalf of the free people's. When Gandalf was saved from Saruman, it was because the eagles were told to deliver information to Saruman (he was still an ally)
"For the record, I'm not coming at you here; I'm just joining the conversation with my thoughts."
And I'm glad to hear another side.
That second point wasn't about what you said. :) I was just expressing my frustration with fandoms. People will bend over backward to defend and apologize for artists instead of just appreciating that art can be flawed. In my opinion, OP's post is exactly that. I find it... exhausting.
Deus ex machina is a plot *device*, not a plot-hole. They're specifically different things. Now, whether you like the device or not doesn't really dictate *what* it is.
The Eagles had been previously established and had been working in a similar way from the get-go anyway. I don't know about any cognitive dissonance because it was all within the bounds that he had built.
I think you may have misunderstood me. The first paragraph is about the lazy use of deus ex machina. The second paragraph is about my frustration with fandoms. Nowhere did I conflate a hole with a bad patch for said hole. Also, you tied in the point about cognitive dissonance with something unrelated. I find it difficult to untangle that at all.
>The first paragraph is about the lazy use of deus ex machina.
Which I don't think is "lazy" at all, by what I said in the second paragraph, and don't see how "deus ex machina" is inherently a bad thing; particularly in a book with an entire cosmology philosophically inclined to it.
>The second paragraph is about my frustration with fandoms. Nowhere did I conflate a hole with a bad patch for said hole.
Clever wording! You literally did, and/because you're missing the point.
Lol, I love this. To add: Why not at least transport them at the outset of the journey--before Frodo even put on the ring, revealing himself to the Nazguls? If Frodo could have avoided danger longer at the beginning, he may have never been tempted to use the ring in the first place.
they considered that, but they want to destoy it, not kick the can down the road another 1000 years (souron will have already taken over the world without it anyway by then)
That's what I'm saying!!!
Ever read "Bored of the Rings"? There's a whole sequence at the start with the Frodo stand-in saying things like this. "Why don't we drop it down a storm drain? Or pawn it and lose the receipt?"
It's a short parody book. It's dumb and silly, and I enjoyed it when I was, like, 11. Not sure how it holds up 20+ years later! You'll have to let me know!
This is why Frodo should have befriended a fell beast so he could be incognito, or at least used some paper mache and make a fell beast costume for an eagle.
If I remember correctly from the books, didn't the eagle who rescued Gandalf from Saruman say that he could not carry him super long distances before losing his strength from the weight?
Actually, the eagle did mention that he couldn't carry him forever. Although the great eagles were descendants of the spirits of Manwë, they were still mortal and suffered from mortality as all of Erú's creation outside of Aman.
He mentions later on when he comes back as Gandalf the white that he’s a lot lighter than he used to be but I don’t exactly recall if he mentions his weight when he rescues him from orthanc
To give a more thorough overview of why “They should’ve used the eagles” is the dumbest ‘plot hole’ in LoTR:
A) The eagles are not mindless servants that come whenever Gandalf call. Gwaihir and the other eagles are a very proud, intelligent race, and occasionally aid Gandalf when they happen to owe him a favour.
B) They are also sentient enough to be corrupted by the ring. Imagine if Gwaihir gets even mildly corrupted. Turns a bit in midair, Frodo and the rest of the Fellowship go splat, and now the ring is being airlifted to somewhere no one will ever retrieve it besides Sauron.
C) The entire point of the Fellowship is that they’re trying to travel in secrecy. That’s also why they’re walking through mountains instead of riding horses or any other much faster mode of transport. Eagles are going to be spotted by Sauron’s spies or Saruman’s crebain in moments, and their location will be completely exposed.
D) Getting the ring to Mount Doom means nothing if Sauron knows they’re there. Imagine a couple of eagles and the Fellowship facing down the entire army of Mordor between them and Mount Doom. They will die in minutes.
This is only the second dumbest attempt at finding a plot hole in LoTR because “why didn’t Elrond push Isildur into the lava” exists
A) They seem to be around every time it's convenient for Gandalf
B) Corruption happens over time. They could complete the months long journey in days.
C) The eagles specifically say that they can outfly the Nazgul, and they outfight them in the battle in front of Mordor
D) Sauron doesn't know they're going to try and destroy the ring until Frodo puts in on inside the volcano. He wouldn't line up his troops in defense around it.
A) Gandalf contacts the Eagles 2 times in the span of 79 years, once to rescue Thorin's Company from a treetop and once to rescue him from Orthanc, both very brief, very specific circumstances, with minimal risk for the Eagles. They also openly express that it was the returning of a favour, and not an act of charity.
B) Corruption can happen rapidly and with no clear rate. Bilbo was corrupted over decades, but Smeagol was corrupted by the ring in a matter of minutes. Isildur and Boromir were both tempted within hours/days, and Gandalf and Galadriel are so afraid of being corrupted they don't wish to even touch the Ring.
C) Pound for pound the Eagles are stronger and faster than the Fell Beasts, but that's not accounting for numbers, especially when you consider the tens of thousands of artillery units possessed by Sauron. These guys are scared of minor human settlements because of bows, they're not going near a company of archers.
D) Sauron's troops are already in Mordor and a lot of their stations are near Mount Doom. The moment Sauron sees a large flock of Eagles fly into Mordor, he's going to defend his land, especially since he has long-term beef with the Eagles considering they're servants and messengers of Manwe, who's basically him and his boss's greatest opp in history. Even more so if he realises they have the Ring, which his main goal is to reclaim.
C+D: The eagles don't have to get in range of bows or engage with Nazgul. They just have to fly over the top of an active volcano at 10,000 feet and drop it in.
Sounds like a pullet proof plan. We'll just drop this ring, while flying through smoke and noxiois gas, and hope to land it inside a hole in some rocks from 10,000 feet. Can't possibly go wrong.
Is it even clear that ring would be destroyed effectively that way, or does it need to be inside the mountain.
You know except when they do exactly that to rescue frodo anyways.
The only reason the eagles wouldnt work is pride and temptation, if you think any other reason is legit then youre clouded by your fan biases.
But isn't the power of Sauron broken at that point due to the destruction of the ring? And without the one, the nine rings and the ring wraiths also loose their power.
They were already in the area at that point and committed to Sourons destruction. In assisting the free people's it would have been a small favor to help the heroes (also Rip to the third eagle meant for Smeagol)
Yess, yes indeed. Nice hobbits! We will come with them. Find them safe paths in the dark, yes we will.And where are they going in these cold hard lands, we wonders, yes we wonders?
My head canon is nobody have a countermeasure if the eagles got corrupted by the ring. The fellowship will just go splat against the ground and the world will have to deal with a stealth bomber in addition to all the other problems.
Now my headcanon is that if an eagle got the ring it would transform into a B-2 and deliver nuclear payloads across middle earth. Thank you.
Only if Middle Earth has oil will it be thus Freedomized
I don't think it has oil but I heard it's rich in deposits of element 710.
Put Sheldon in a juicer.
*managed democracy enters the chat*
Hello, fellow American!
Ain't no hope in Hell Nothing's gonna bring us down The way we fly Five miles off the ground
That’s always been mine. People don’t realize that the eagles are powerful sentient creatures. They’re not immune to the corruption of the ring.
A tyrannical god-eagle wielding the ring would be pretty metal
And yet, in the movies, the eagles STILL surprised their enemy all 4 times they showed up
They should've flown the B-17 bomber
It's no use. The Nazgul got their hands on an F-16
We need the stealth B-2 then.
Ok, B-17G
*B1-B
What if the B-17 bomber got corrupeted by the ring? Now you have evil B-17 bombers flying around
many people forget that the fellbeasts are more pterosaur-like in the books
As Tolkien said famously : SHUTUP!!!!
Maybe, I know he famously said they were a dangerous literary device he had created and used only as much as he required to keep the story interesting.
If by "required to keep the story interesting" he meant "deus-ex-machina the return trip," then totally. I appreciate the effort that fandoms exert to salve their cognitive dissonance over obvious plot holes, but in my opinion, a justification doesn't count unless Tolkien wrote it. For the record, I'm not coming at you here; I'm just joining the conversation with my thoughts.
Except Tolkien does include an explanation for it, and it isn't anything wild or crazy. It's bows and secrecy. The eagles say they don't fly over mirkwood because people have bows and will shoot at them and they don't like being shot at. Simple as that. Now, with that established (physical harm and aversion to getting shot at), it very easily stands to reason that if they don't like some bows being shot at them, they definitely wouldn't like an army of bows shooting at them in mordor. They probably also wouldn't like picking fights with fell beasts. On top of that, Tolkien establishes the need for secrecy during the council meeting when the suggestion that Glorfindel go with the company is shot down for that reason. It stands to reason that if secrecy is so important that a single elf, even if it is Glorfindel, shouldn't go with (and we know Sauron has spies everywhere), eagles flying hither and thither isn't a great idea either.
Don't they rescue Frodo and Sam from Mordor in the climax of danger? It's been a long time since I read LotR, but I believe that this is how they escape Mount Doom. Seems neither safe nor stealthy.
You mean after they throw the ring in the lava? When Sauron is defeated?
Yeah, while the Urukhai army is in their home territory, fighting an active war. The anti-air threat comes primarily from Sauron's forces--not Sauron himself.
Haven't read the book, but in the movie they all start running away after sauron is defeated. Does the book say something different?
There is no life in the void, only death.
I honestly don't remember. I just think that argument is a bit of a stretch. Anyway, it's not important to fill plot holes--or to uncover them. LotR is a great work despite the questionable ending. C'est la fiction. Good discussion anyway.
Build me an army worthy of mordor!
Thanks for your consensus, Sauron-bot.
Stand up, and hear me!
event before then they actualy join in at the battle of the black gate
Death to light, to law, to love!
Once the ring is destroyed, there's no need for secrecy. When the ring is destroyed, all the orcs are demoralised and start to flee, but they're also very intentionally being distracted (far from mount doom) by the forces at the Black Gate. The Nazgul also are lost as the ring no longer binds them. You could certainly say there is still danger, but it is much lessened. With that in mind, and no need for secrecy, it isn't absurd that they'd swoop in at that point. Beyond that, there is also a theory that Manwë sent them in at that fateful time, but I don't recall if that's directly written.
"If by "required to keep the story interesting" he meant "deus-ex-machina the return trip," then totally." That's exactly what he meant, but Deus Ex Machina wasn't a well used term at the time so he didn't use it. He simply called the eagles a Dangerous machine, which one can translate into Deus Ex Machina over time. "I appreciate the effort that fandoms exert to salve their cognitive dissonance over obvious plot holes, but in my opinion, it doesn't count unless Tolkien wrote it." This is what he said about the eagles, nobody in his time asked about this or thought it was a plot hole. He was just expressing his thoughts about the use of the eagles. As for "plot holes" any time they were used it's because they were already in the area fighting Sauron on behalf of the free people's. When Gandalf was saved from Saruman, it was because the eagles were told to deliver information to Saruman (he was still an ally) "For the record, I'm not coming at you here; I'm just joining the conversation with my thoughts." And I'm glad to hear another side.
That second point wasn't about what you said. :) I was just expressing my frustration with fandoms. People will bend over backward to defend and apologize for artists instead of just appreciating that art can be flawed. In my opinion, OP's post is exactly that. I find it... exhausting.
Deus ex machina is a plot *device*, not a plot-hole. They're specifically different things. Now, whether you like the device or not doesn't really dictate *what* it is. The Eagles had been previously established and had been working in a similar way from the get-go anyway. I don't know about any cognitive dissonance because it was all within the bounds that he had built.
I think you may have misunderstood me. The first paragraph is about the lazy use of deus ex machina. The second paragraph is about my frustration with fandoms. Nowhere did I conflate a hole with a bad patch for said hole. Also, you tied in the point about cognitive dissonance with something unrelated. I find it difficult to untangle that at all.
>The first paragraph is about the lazy use of deus ex machina. Which I don't think is "lazy" at all, by what I said in the second paragraph, and don't see how "deus ex machina" is inherently a bad thing; particularly in a book with an entire cosmology philosophically inclined to it. >The second paragraph is about my frustration with fandoms. Nowhere did I conflate a hole with a bad patch for said hole. Clever wording! You literally did, and/because you're missing the point.
Why not get them atleast half the way? Then they wouldn't have needed to go through the caves.
Lol, I love this. To add: Why not at least transport them at the outset of the journey--before Frodo even put on the ring, revealing himself to the Nazguls? If Frodo could have avoided danger longer at the beginning, he may have never been tempted to use the ring in the first place.
Why not just throw the ring into deep water, the 9 can't swim...unless they have wraith seahorses!
they considered that, but they want to destoy it, not kick the can down the road another 1000 years (souron will have already taken over the world without it anyway by then)
That's what I'm saying!!! Ever read "Bored of the Rings"? There's a whole sequence at the start with the Frodo stand-in saying things like this. "Why don't we drop it down a storm drain? Or pawn it and lose the receipt?"
Lol, never heard of it. I will have to look it up. Is it a book, comics, website, or movie?
It's a short parody book. It's dumb and silly, and I enjoyed it when I was, like, 11. Not sure how it holds up 20+ years later! You'll have to let me know!
But what if the eagles got corrupted by the ring like boromir. Then the fellowship would just get dropped splash on the ground.
The team survived the hell cave, pretty sure they could have handled an overgrown fried-chicken. Have enough food for the way back as well.
Okay...I've always tried to avoid this LOtR argument, but it's time I finally stepped in. Would they splash on the ground, or splat?
This is why Frodo should have befriended a fell beast so he could be incognito, or at least used some paper mache and make a fell beast costume for an eagle.
Luthien had this down ages ago with the whole turning into a bat thing.
"Whats ten thousands years?" _smack_ "I can just start over" _smack_ "Forge me another ring"
“Ok ok fiiiine. But can you put in a good word for us to your cousin, F22 Raptor?”
If I remember correctly from the books, didn't the eagle who rescued Gandalf from Saruman say that he could not carry him super long distances before losing his strength from the weight?
He said he was sent to carry words not burdens. That does not necessarily mean he wasn't able to carry Gandalf further but more like he didn't want to
He just lazy af
Actually, the eagle did mention that he couldn't carry him forever. Although the great eagles were descendants of the spirits of Manwë, they were still mortal and suffered from mortality as all of Erú's creation outside of Aman.
Their weakness disgusts me
Thorondir had a wingspan of 180 feet. Gandalf must weigh 500 pounds.
Nah I'm pretty sure he called Gandalf a heavy boi. :3
He mentions later on when he comes back as Gandalf the white that he’s a lot lighter than he used to be but I don’t exactly recall if he mentions his weight when he rescues him from orthanc
It 👏 is 👏 canon!
To give a more thorough overview of why “They should’ve used the eagles” is the dumbest ‘plot hole’ in LoTR: A) The eagles are not mindless servants that come whenever Gandalf call. Gwaihir and the other eagles are a very proud, intelligent race, and occasionally aid Gandalf when they happen to owe him a favour. B) They are also sentient enough to be corrupted by the ring. Imagine if Gwaihir gets even mildly corrupted. Turns a bit in midair, Frodo and the rest of the Fellowship go splat, and now the ring is being airlifted to somewhere no one will ever retrieve it besides Sauron. C) The entire point of the Fellowship is that they’re trying to travel in secrecy. That’s also why they’re walking through mountains instead of riding horses or any other much faster mode of transport. Eagles are going to be spotted by Sauron’s spies or Saruman’s crebain in moments, and their location will be completely exposed. D) Getting the ring to Mount Doom means nothing if Sauron knows they’re there. Imagine a couple of eagles and the Fellowship facing down the entire army of Mordor between them and Mount Doom. They will die in minutes. This is only the second dumbest attempt at finding a plot hole in LoTR because “why didn’t Elrond push Isildur into the lava” exists
I’ve really heard the “Why didnt Elrond push Isildur into the lava?” Theory. Is there anything interesting to discuss there?
A) They seem to be around every time it's convenient for Gandalf B) Corruption happens over time. They could complete the months long journey in days. C) The eagles specifically say that they can outfly the Nazgul, and they outfight them in the battle in front of Mordor D) Sauron doesn't know they're going to try and destroy the ring until Frodo puts in on inside the volcano. He wouldn't line up his troops in defense around it.
A) Gandalf contacts the Eagles 2 times in the span of 79 years, once to rescue Thorin's Company from a treetop and once to rescue him from Orthanc, both very brief, very specific circumstances, with minimal risk for the Eagles. They also openly express that it was the returning of a favour, and not an act of charity. B) Corruption can happen rapidly and with no clear rate. Bilbo was corrupted over decades, but Smeagol was corrupted by the ring in a matter of minutes. Isildur and Boromir were both tempted within hours/days, and Gandalf and Galadriel are so afraid of being corrupted they don't wish to even touch the Ring. C) Pound for pound the Eagles are stronger and faster than the Fell Beasts, but that's not accounting for numbers, especially when you consider the tens of thousands of artillery units possessed by Sauron. These guys are scared of minor human settlements because of bows, they're not going near a company of archers. D) Sauron's troops are already in Mordor and a lot of their stations are near Mount Doom. The moment Sauron sees a large flock of Eagles fly into Mordor, he's going to defend his land, especially since he has long-term beef with the Eagles considering they're servants and messengers of Manwe, who's basically him and his boss's greatest opp in history. Even more so if he realises they have the Ring, which his main goal is to reclaim.
Not Gandalf, the wandering wizard, who made such excellent fireworks! Old Took used to have them on Mid-Summer's Eve!
We wants it. We needs it. Must have the precious. They stole it from us. Sneaky little Hobbitses. Wicked. Tricksy. False.
C+D: The eagles don't have to get in range of bows or engage with Nazgul. They just have to fly over the top of an active volcano at 10,000 feet and drop it in.
Can eagles breathe at 10k altitude?
Sounds like a pullet proof plan. We'll just drop this ring, while flying through smoke and noxiois gas, and hope to land it inside a hole in some rocks from 10,000 feet. Can't possibly go wrong. Is it even clear that ring would be destroyed effectively that way, or does it need to be inside the mountain.
We missed out on Gwaihir, Dark Ring Lord
the whole worlds at stake you selfish chicken!
Omni man only says think once.
They should have given the One Ring to Sonic the Hedgehog.
Would the eagles have been susceptible to Sauron's influence in any way?
And now drink the cup that I have sweetly blent for thee!
uhhhh... Thanks?
You know except when they do exactly that to rescue frodo anyways. The only reason the eagles wouldnt work is pride and temptation, if you think any other reason is legit then youre clouded by your fan biases.
But isn't the power of Sauron broken at that point due to the destruction of the ring? And without the one, the nine rings and the ring wraiths also loose their power.
Before the mightiest he shall fall, before the mightiest wolf of all.
You know who Manwe is right? Right?
Sauron dies, the sky clears, fell beasts die, the orcs run away
They went to save frodo after sauron was defeated tho
What brought the foolish fly to web unsought?
They were already in the area at that point and committed to Sourons destruction. In assisting the free people's it would have been a small favor to help the heroes (also Rip to the third eagle meant for Smeagol)
Yess, yes indeed. Nice hobbits! We will come with them. Find them safe paths in the dark, yes we will.And where are they going in these cold hard lands, we wonders, yes we wonders?