So:
* Human-focused. If vampires/elves/merfolk/etc. exist, they have to take great care to remain hidden from normal society. Or they exist in a parallel realm. There’s at least one organization with the mission to hunt supernatural creatures and protect humans.
* Magic is kept secret from normal society. Magical items and spells are often disguised as everyday objects and phenomena.
* Contemporary or near-contemporary setting. Probably a fictionalized version of New York or London. Maybe “Sanfransokyo” if they’re feeling adventurous.
The Bean
1WG
Legendary Artifact - Food
Flash
When The Bean enters, return target spell to its owner's hand
{T}, add one mana of any color
{T}, sacrifice this artifact: gain 2 life
*"It's name is Cloud Gate!"*
*Anish Kapoor, architect*
I've read the first three Dresden Files and I'm not from the US, and I don't get what the Bean is. Even though I follow Mtg just for the lore I feel that set that's so self-referential - based full of tropes known only by a specific nationality - would find people of other nationalities mostly confused and/or seeing it as "the earth now is banana shaped" (yeah, one is negative and one is kinda positive).
I mean, a British person won't get a card refencing the Bielfeld Conspiracy or the fact that Molise doesn't exist.
"The Bean" is a famous Chicago sculpture/landmark that is officially called [Cloud Gate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_Gate). The artist who made it, one Anish Kapur, is a famously pompous and elitist artist.
The connection to the Dresden Files is that in later book, it's revealed that the reason Anish is so pompous is that he is actually a Fae and it was secretly a cache of weapons hidden in plain sight. Going into further detail would ruin stuff, though.
Oh man I remember being so excited for that game as it was getting ready to come out. I saw some exhibit about it at PAX or something and got these dog tags according to which faction I was in. Then I think I... never played it? Haha
Exactly. I asked the question to Mark and it feels like they're circling around what I'm describing, but haven't done it fully yet. New Capenna is like the 1920s rather than the 2020s. Kamigawa is cyberpunk, so a bit more futuristic. Ravnica's close, especially with Niv Mizzet's plan to make it the center of the multiverse - This could lead to modernization. But none of these are planes that are like 2024, but magic's real. Duskmourn's past feels like what I'm describing. It's like it was an urban fantasy plane set in the 80s or 90s that was taken over by horror.
Modern Urban Fantasy will run hard into the wall that is "no depiction of firearms" rule. People fighting against the unknown, police responding to "weird" situations, humans fighting against the supernatural in secret etc will be *really weird* if there are no firearms involved.
Edit: Fallout and Warhammer are Universes Beyond and avoid this rule, all the actual MTG sets have skirted the line by making things like "wand guns" etc. One or two pieces of art get past the QC people but for the most part no modern firearms *is* a hard art/design rule.
I had a chat with someone recently that basically boiled down to that it's dumb to need to qualify your statements about points that haven't been brought up. Not that I don't understand why you did it, I'm not a stranger to Reddit, I'm more just musing how much it sucks that you *know* someone's gonna come out of the woodwork so you have to preemptively acknowledge stuff that should go without saying but because you didn't explicitly say it someone might use it as a "gotcha" against your argument.
With the recent connection of planes by omen paths (which seem to be traveled frequently) an urban fantasy setting makes very little sense. How would you hide the fact that magical beings from all over the universe are traveling to your plane?
As the story line is now, a UB Dresden Files, American Gods or some other established urban fantasy setting would work best I think. It would also avoid triggering players that would like to keep Guns, Internet and other modern day, mundane things out of their fantasy focused setting. NEO and New Capena pushed the boundaries a lot in this regard, but they still had a lot of fantastical elements to keep the fantasy-like feeling. Duskmourn is almost too much with its very mundane 80s setting (even the horror it portrays is something very mundane because it's so much oriented towards 80s horror movies) but a 2020s setting could be the straw that breaks the camels back.
And also has magic spirits, Rat people, Snake people, Magic trees, floating magic cities, actual magic, etc.
Neo Kamigawa is like a mix of cyberpunk and magitech than full cyberpunk.
I assume that urban fantasy in this context refers to more than just the urban nature of the setting. The term is nebulous, but often includes stuff like contemporary settings, investigative or vigilante lead characters (often female), romance, sapient supernatural creatures like werewolves/vampires/demons, and a secret magical (under) world that exists parallel to but secret from the mundane. (Conversely, it can also include modern settings where magic is known, accepted, and understood, but this is particularly uncertain ground for MTG since that's just splitting the difference between NC and Kamigawa).
Of course, it doesn't need to include all these things, but these are fairly common tropes and if they're talking about urban fantasy I'd expect some combination of these big ones.
It's tricky for MTG, because most interpretations would demand a plane where magic was much less a part of day to day life, because as you point out, we've seen plenty of planes with cities in various configurations. You can tell stories that hit most of these points on other urban planes, so what does an urban fantasy plane look like? I can only conclude it's a world where magic is a secret, which demands a setting that doesn't just flirt with modern technology like Kamigawa or Duskmourne, but is *defined* by it.
Interesting question, I think.
Edit: I do think it's a worthwhile nut to try to crack, though! UF gets a lot of hate but there are some absolute bangers in the genre, and a different audience than classic fantasy (since it often incorporates elements of romance and mystery in addition to fantasy). Plus, mechanically it would be super cool to have some kind of "masquerade" mechanic, where you could break hiding for some benefit, at some tragic cost.
In a lot of ways the way that Innistrad integrated its supernatural elements is the approach that Urban Fantasy tends to take. Particularly the variants that don't take the Secret World approach. It just happens to be urban fantasy/horror from 150 or so years ago.
So a modern-era coded Urban Fantasy would look much like Innistrad but with more traditional (goblins, orcs, elves, etc) creature types rather than horror creatures.
My pitch would be to finally give us a worthwhile Nissa-focused set. Let her go full Toby Daye (hell, you could even have Seanan McGuire write it)—long coat and a haircut to disguise her pointed ears. Give her a Sultai card, bring back clues, and let her hide amongst the magical world while trying to track down something dangerous.
Urban fantasy isn't "fantasy in a city". It means a fantasy story set in a world that resembles ours. More specifically, most people refer to the "secret world" variety of urban fantasy (think Percy Jackson).
Yeah, sure, why not. Another answer from today says that a 'masquerade' type world is on the short list - as in, a world where the fantasy elements of the *urban fantasy* is hidden to most normal people. I think that's the version I'd be most interested in seeing, but I'm kind of an absolutist about "fuck it, Magic can be anything now."
I think the Masquerade element is ingrained enough with urban fantasy (young fantasy is almost all of that) that you can bring a lot of mechanic and flavorful elements without any of the things explored in Ravnica, New Capenna and Neo Kamigawa.
Modal cards of "normal and fantasy world", day and night mechanics, a totally Not-new York setting of humans, with elves and fairys living in a parallel world/the underground.
Maybe the next Lorwynn is that? It was called a new take in the setting, and the Omenpaths could be a connection between it and a "modern" world.
Regarding Lorwyn they said it was a new take on the setting, but I don’t see them going full Kamigawa and modernising it. Lorwyns big big draw has always been its countryside aesthetic and pseudo-Celtic folklore; as someone who lives near Dublin let me tell you modern day Dublin is not an MTG setting I want lmao
What I suspect they’ll do is they’ll lean _much_ more into the Celtic mythology aspects of it- both as a fun new angle, to mesh with the Fomori (an Irish mythological race themselves), and to distinguish it further from the other two folkloric/countryside planes: Eldraine and Bloomburrow
Celtic myths, even without the humans, sounds really interesting, but when it was announced, the mention of the design sensibilities of Neo Kamigawa was mentioned, the setting doesnt have enough elements for "1000 years later" modernization, but I could see the elements of night and day cycle and Omenpaths as the "magical world" of a more mundane one, but is just a theory, we will see.
I always interpreted that as mechanical: taking what people loved from how it played and updating from there. In Kamigawas case the plane was modernised too, but ig we’ll have to see what happens with Lorwyn yeah. Imagining every new or returning plane as a modern setting feels strange though- a Japanese theme naturally had the modern cyberpunk angle to accompany it. I can’t envision anything similar for a folklore world
Yeah is just me jumping to conclusions, the Kamigawa design came when they started by "cyberpunk japanese pop culture", so I don't think they wanted a direct return to the plane but it was the "answer" to a design space, maybe Lorwynn came with "Celtic Myths" or "the Narnia like fantasy world in secret of the Mundane world" like I think, but we will know in like 2 years.
>Modal cards of "normal and fantasy world", day and night mechanics, a totally Not-new York setting of humans, with elves and fairys living in a parallel world/the underground.
You know, this reminds me of Dimensions 20s The Unsleeping City. Something in that vein would honestly slap.
My thoughts exactly, World of Darkness, Hellboy, Harry Potter, Dresden Files, even some episodes of X-files, the pool is deep of inspiration, Innistrad, Lorwynn and even Neo Kamigawa with it's "artifacts as mundane, enchantment as magical" has the elements for it, and Magic has never done anything like that, all the "urban fantasy" is just elves living in a condo
Ravnica is probably the closest, with its coffee shops and subway system, but we see very little of that part and it lacks the secretive angle and contrast between the mudane and magical in the way something like WoD has.
Ravnica is more urbanized fantasy than urban fantasy, so to speak.
Yeah, for something like the "Masquerade" you need a new world with really clear inspiration with history, from the 50s to modern times, so the dichotomy of the mundane/human/day/muggle world and the fantastic/magical/night world feels notorious enough
> I’m king of an absolutist about “fuck it, Magic can be anything now”
This is clearly how WOTC feels, so I agree this is probably the best outlook to have.
Magic pretty much always has been anything and everything everywhere.
Universes Beyond: Arabian Nights and Universes Beyond: Romance of the Three Kingdoms are a couple of my favourite sets :)
As long as it doesn't feel like "Just Earth but with Magic". It's my largest complaint about various Universes Beyond stuff - the ones I like the least are just "here's Earth". Assassin's Creed, some of Doctor Who, Stranger Things, and the Walking Dead.
Make it "modern but another planet" and I'm here for it.
Hmm, I'm not sure I understand what you're describing. Earth (2024) but with magic is exactly what I meant originally since we've already gotten Earth (1870) with Thunder Junction, Earth (1924) with New Capenna and Earth (2224) with NEO. What would "modern but another planet" look like?
I disagree that Kamigawa, Capenna, and Thunder Junction are "Earth + Magic". There are unique stylings, creatures, technology and fantasy races. I can see and understand the argument for Thunder Junction more than the other two, but I would push back on those being "just Earth". Just how I see it. While individual cards may be bleh and very "Earthy", overall it feels different to me on a whole set basis. Part of it is art style.
What I would want from "modern but another planet" is primarily two things: Unique races (or ones we might be familiar with) that are QUITE different. Merfolk and Elementals. NOT Dwarves and Elves. Those are fairly human. Second, some sort of unique architecture or styling on characters. Things that when just instantly look at it you go "this isn't here". Again, how close it is on any card can very but overall it being "enough off" is good enough for me, as poorly explained that is.
As it stands, this is potentially an issue with Duskmourne (of which I am VERY excited for) as just "guy in clothes in house" is a potential card art. I have no issues with Cursed Recording because there's a very new monster in the TVs, and Chainsaw has enough "Extra" on it that I buy it's not from Earth. However "Come Back Wrong" is cutting it really darn close to not liking it because it's just a zombie and some shoes.
To be more clear about the Universes Beyond dislikes I mentioned: If you look at some of the Humans from Doctor Who, those are \*just\* people in places. Not an event or any science fiction about them - I enjoy the Alien stuff just fine. Stranger Things is kind of just people as is Walking Dead and most of Assassin's Creed. They do not have \*anything\* alluding to not just being Earth at some point.
I am not very picky and want card arts to be just a tad different than something I could see in a walk around my city.
Describing those worlds as just ‘Earth+MTG’ feels very reductive. You might as well go the whole way- _Tarkir_ Earth (1259), _Innistrad_ Earth (1888), _Original Kamigawa_ Earth (1493), _Fiora_ Earth (1519), etc etc. ‘Modern but another world’ is no different to ‘Innistrad isn’t actually Germany’ or ‘Kaladesh isn’t really India’
Yeah, NEO's the other example I didn't mention. They haven't done a contemporary urban fantasy plane yet, but they've made sets that are either a little bit in the past, a little bit in the future, or in Duskmourn's case it was taken over by something different.
Urban fantasy is cool, but something about modern-day fashion really takes me out of the "sci-fi/fantasy mishmash" that is Magic. Like I can't really get over that [[The Master, Multiplied]] is just a dude in a hoodie. Respect to Doctor Who, but it's just a little immersion-breaking.
maybe not, the biggest one that might stem close and will probably be prolific in that set is final fantasy 7 but the weapons and stuff really push it farther way then that. as the other final fantasy games that get close to modern clothing are 8 (somewhat popular) and 15 (mixed reception) the only other that have modern athetics somewhere in them are 11 and 14 in clothing but staying more towards the fantasy for a lot of its notable characters and the such. so that is 11 games to pull from without getting close to The Master multiplied at all.
but yah most of the notable characters and stuff ether stem closer to fantasy (could see them on places like zendikar, like final fantasy 5 or 10 for example) or tech (final fantasy 13 i could see running around Kamigawa)
I really doubt this. I am very curious if they are going to focus around one game or not, because they do have some final fantasies that are a little futuristic and thus could run into this problem. But as an aggregate, especially if they are pulling from multiple games, Final Fantasy, at its core, has a very steampunk fantasy vibe and so it's unlikely that it will look too close to what we see every day here on Earth.
I think context for The Master Multiplied makes him pretty fantastical if that helps. He's not just a guy in a hoodie, he's literally every person on Earth.
Right but that's not context that's provided within the game Magic: The Gathering. (Or rather it is, tactlessly, in the flavor text)
This is a guy in a hoodie, or maybe 5 guys in different outfits at a party watching a computer overheat.
If Urban Fantasy means a plane that essentially takes place on Earth in the year 2024 aesthetics wise, that doesn't appeal to me.
I don't want Magic Fantasy that is original to break the 4th wall or be too similar to real life or other common/mainstream trope space.
I think exploring Urban Fantasy through Magic is better suited for Universes Beyond (and we already did that with Doctor Who)
If only there were some way to do a dense urban space that still feels consistent with the tones and aesthetics of other Magic settings. Maybe a plane that's just one big city, and the factions are the different industries and organizations that manage different parts of the city. And maybe they could base them around the color pairs, and sort of give them each a cohesive identi-
I think the closer you get to semi-conductors and modern day technology the more work you have to do blend that world with mana, magic, and the themes of MtG in a believable way. I'm in no way saying it can't be done, but on the full speed treadmill that is modern MtG I think that creative nuance can be hard to find.
personally speaking, don’t want it even a little. the closer things feel to modern world the less I enjoy them in magic. Urban fantasy can be its own good thing(though honestly i rarely enjoy it anyway) just don’t like it for magic
Because Magic is the only game like this I play, I want all the things I like to be in it.
It feels to me the same as when Nintendo went beyond their own IP characters in Super Smash games. Snake running around the Mushroom Kingdom was odd at first but we got used to it.
I can get that, its fair especially for things that would never support a game on their own. Ive just seen several card games be this IP mashup over the years and ive never felt any desire to try them even when they were properties i like, just not what i wanted magic to be. Maybe its because i started magic so long ago and it was the fantasy stuff that drew me in. If you took the me from 2000, she wouldnt ever get into modern magic with it being such a mashup
The smash bros comparison is one ive seen people make and its always a weird one to me. Smash bros is specifically its own separate mash up thing, its not like solid snake shows up to give mario a star, or you play zelda and find sephiroth at the end of a temple. We got used to it because it was specifically not the actual mushroom kingdom setting.
I think the only people left here are people who would not mind an urban fantasy plane.
The other ones have already irked out of here after the recent surge of modern settings into mtg.
I really hope they don't; the 80s-esque fashion and technology has already pretty severely dropped my interest in Duskmourn, which I was otherwise really excited for. Capenna was fantastical enough that I was into it; NEO felt like pushing it, as far as tonal consistency goes, but was cool enough that I was ok with it. I don't think contemporary urban fantasy would bring me enough excitement to balance out the aesthetic clashing.
This 100%, they became so lazy with writing that the sets are more about (or solely about) the theme or setting. It used to be kind of fantasy, but wasn't like anything else. Now the story is "cowboys" or "haunted mansion", doesn't matter what happens there or what characters are doing.
I think the last truly *new* original setting, if you ignore sets that return to previously established planes like Dominaria and Ravnica, was Ikoria.
The idea of a plane full of giant monsters where humanity is pushed back into a few highly defensible cities is legitimately pretty cool. It had some Godzilla inspiration, but it was pretty minor.
But that was back in 2020. Four years and 16+ sets ago.
>It used to be kind of fantasy, but wasn't like anything else.
That were just riffs on existing things
>Not-Greek Myths
>Not-Hammer-Horror
>Not-D&D
>Not-Egypt
>Not-Japan
What exactly is the barrier of something to be not just themed on something?
If you heavily played the game during the time it only took place in a handful of planes I can see why your memories made it seem more unique,
I didn’t care for the theming of SNC and I think I’d like a more contemporary urban fantasy setting even less. That being said, I care way way way more about mechanics than flavor so as long as they keep doing a good job with design I don’t really care
It doesn't matter if it's something traditional or something new, how welcome it will be is 90% down to execution. Unfortunately, I think WotC's ability to effectively build worlds that stand on their own is being choked by lazy and tedious trope, reference and fan service chasing.
I say it seems lazy because it's hard to imagine the first day of development of New Capenna didn't start with a whiteboard being filled with every cliché of the mobster genre, and it feels like a lot of it made it to the card. I'm pointing at New Capenna, but same goes for Thunder Junction and Markov Manor.
Imo their ability to create worlds is unchanged and you can tell from things like the Planeswalkers Guides they do still really care (hell even MKM had a pretty solid explanation for the all the detectivness). It just doesn’t make it to the cards in the same way that it used to- there’s some filter between worldbuilding and card printing they pass through where the world they’ve created is Made Marketable that, while it probably did always exist, wasn’t turbo charged like it is now
Absolutely! Can't wait to see Oko wear a Yankee cap and get a bagel from the local bodega while Kellan gets some timbs and rides the subway. Magic has *always* had some non-fantasy elements, like other people have astutely pointed out, so why complain now?
But in all honesty, not only have we just had a barrage of non-fantasy sets recently, with at least a couple more on the way, it's just diluting the entire core of Magic's theme for me at this point. Duskmourn is a perfect example. The actual story of the plane is really cool, but by making it's characters wear modern clothes, have ghosts in CRTs, etc., it completely clashes with Magic's 30 year identity of being far-off lands and rich worlds. For all the amazing, evocative, fantasy designs in these sets, there will be a literal chainsaw in Magic forever now. Not a hand-cranked saw, not a fantasy powered contraption approximating a saw, a literal, no-shit chainsaw that can be put on an Elves of Deep Shadow now forever. They could have EASILY made Duskmourn with just fantasy elements, and there's some AMAZING cards shown so far. Twitching Doll is a creepy, flavorful, awesome design, that would fit right in normally. Is Fantasy really such a restricted creative space that they have to move away from it? I just don't think so.
Places like Innistrad are cool and beloved because they take concepts and themes people like and integrate them *into a fantasy world.* There's a huge difference between these two things, and when you've built your entire universe on one for 20 years and then decide "fuck it, I want to have everyone in detective hats and go to definitely not New York" it just hurts both. You can like it, everyone has different tastes. But I like the world of Magic the Gathering, and I like its identity. That's why, even if I may love horror like Duskmourn, I really hate what sets like it are doing to magic. When you do everything, it becomes nothing. I even like UB and like the idea for it in Commander. But it is now the core-product, inescapable.
also Duskmourne reads like the literal synopsis of Stranger Things season 4, it’s so rehashed. like, major cultural phenom (that even had a UB for fucks sake) just did this. exact. plot. Like what, the demon is just One, binding his time from the marketing cross-over?
That's a fair opinion. I just like that Magic can contain both. I'm a huge fan of high fantasy, sword and sorcery, etc. But I also like science fiction just as much, and doing mashups/crossovers with these ideas has always appealed to me since I was a kid.
I love steak and I love cake, but a steak cake ruins both.
That's what they're doing with the identity and theme of magic, diluting and spoiling it with other clashing concepts, which are all cool on their own, but blended togather just taste vaguely unpleasant.
You mix every color of paint, it just looks like shit.
You know, classic, plain fantasy worked pretty well for the first 30 years of the game, we should try that again some time.
2024 sets have clearly been targeted at stretching the identity of what a Magic set can be... it can be a detective novel, a cowboy western, rebranded Redwall, or Stranger Things without the license. The pessimist in me says they did this to try and make Universes Beyond properties more palatable and less jarring ahead of Marvel and other upcoming properties.
To be blunt, I'm not about it. Kaladesh and Ravnica are already urban enough while still retaining their fantasy roots.
Some parts of dominaria’s history were more robust than others.
Urza was an archaeologist. Honestly, my early views of doninaria made it look like how I view Kaladesh now. The Thran were basically Atlantis.
Instead has a large urban setting, it might be midevil technology setting, but it had many urbanized subplots.
I don’t mind them doing modern things or cyberpunk or whatever, really, I just want it to make sense.
"The pessimist in me says they did this to try and make Universes Beyond properties more palatable and less jarring ahead of Marvel and other upcoming properties."
If so, I think they went the wrong way.
If you don't like Universes Beyond, then having even the normal sets not feel like Magic anymore is going to be quite off putting, its not going to ease you into accept Universes Beyond.
There wasn't classic plain fantasy for the first 30 years lol. That had all the sci fi stuff with Urza, Eldritch and Gothic horror on innistrad, New Capenna, classic Japanese myths and then Japanese myths as Cyberpunk with Kamigawa, Arabian Nights and Portal 3 Kingdoms, Greek, Egyptian and Norse mythology inspired planes.
This has never been Swords and sorcery fantasy
All of that falls into fantasy. Urza and the phyrexian saga was sci-fiish but in the same sense Warhammer40k is sci fi but is more or less fantastical. And even then Dominaria itself remained sword and sorcery. Following that, planes like Kamigawa was still the 'medieval' style story with sword and sorcery. Same for Innistrad, Zendikar, Ravnica and the only breakaway being Mirrodin and Scars, but again, its sci fi like Warhammer40k is sci fi.
Duskmourne is not like that.
They should just do "our plane". Where it completely breaks the 4th wall and recognizes itself as a card game.
Like planeswalkers come to our plane and they have to build decks because there typical form of magic doesn't work.
Honestly fuck it. Who cares anymore. We have Walking Dead IP FFS. Even in standard sets, we’ve already had cowboys, cyberpunk, and apparently the upcoming set has 80’s horror themes. There’s literally nothing off limits at this point.
Stop making modern places in magic
Magic is supposed to be old school high fantasy
I hate modernity in it 😭
This is supposed to be fantastical escapism from the mundanity of our modern world
I don’t personally care for anything too far away from fantasy/myth/historical settings. Ex: I loved the original Kamigawa block but don’t like Neon Dynasty at all.
That being said, I’ll just play less of it for a while like I did with Karlov and Thunder Junction and it will be fine. If others like it, I don’t need every set to be a banger for me. Though if it gets too consistent I can see myself drifting further from MTG over time.
I love the idea that Magic can massively shift genres though. It's a huge part of the appeal to me. Planeswalkers going to vastly different environments. Reminds me or media I liked as a kid like Bionicle or Pendragon novels. One might argue it started even with the original Kamigawa block.
this just sounds like the annoying kid on playground who during pretend invents himself the weapon that nobody else can beat, and then says it’s not fair the other kids get upset when they tell him not to do that. Sure, in the annoying kid on the playground way, planeswalkers can do anything. But Magic as most people have met it for 3 decades is fantasy, with (increasing) twists as the need to sell new sets runs up against the drying well of ideas. fantasy can be a lot of things, but when it’s just real life, it feels a lot like we should just pack it in and call it done.
Hey Maro, how about we stop with the tropes and simply create planes that are interesting to begin with? The top-down design creates flavor failures and lame planes like “everyone detective” - “everyone cowboy” and “90’s horror franchise reference collection”.
Little strange to see pushback to the idea that Magic can be anything when one of Magic’s core premises is an infinite multiverse of possibilities.
That said, while I’m not opposed to the idea of an urban fantasy world, I’m worried it might end up being too similar to “Ravnica but modern”.
All I'll say is that if Hasbro/WOTC wasn't able to swing so big and successfully with LotR and netting Final Fantasy and Marvel so quickly, Dresden Files UB would have been a decent stepping stone.
I don't mind the idea of 'modern real-life with hidden magic users' but I'm not convinced it would work very well as the setting for a full set: for it to actually feel different from a modernised Ravnica there'd have to be a critical mass of "muggles", mechanically limited, to distinguish the two worlds, which is not the most thrilling proposition.
Having a single character from a fully modern plane who discovered an Omenpath in an abandoned warehouse show up in a random set could be fun though...
It might actually be a modernized Ravnica going by the epilogue to Karlov Manor though.
But the idea of someone from "Earth" discovering an omenpath? That's basically the plot of Pendragon, a series of YA fantasy novels that I was a big fan of growing up.
I find it always funny that he "hints" about it...
Now, I don't follow Maro Tumblr but I'm here on reddit pretty often, and there isn't a single time that I remember that Maro mentioned something along the line of "what do you think of a set like this" or "what if Magic goes in this direction" that didn't happen in the next 2/3 years max.
What I read into this is that it is 100% (not 99%, 100%) sure that one of the next planes is an urban fantasy plane. Probably WOTC already is halfway through with it or has finished it an is going to the next thing right now...
This said, looking at how they did Markov Manor and how it seems they are doing Duskmourn, I'm not overluy excited, but ok...
My 2 cents is that this will come at the same time or pretty soon after FF and Marvel, so that there is some uniformity between the various worlds.
I love steak and I love cake, but a steak cake ruins both.
That's what they're doing with the identity and theme of magic, diluting and spoiling it with other clashing concepts, which are all cool on their own, but blended togather just taste vaguely unpleasant.
You mix every color of paint, it just looks like shit.
Yes, let’s call it “Magic: The Real World” and it will be so similar to actual reality that it won’t even feel like an escape any more! I can’t wait to cast a Cellphone, or play a Parking Lot! My Firefighter blocks your Accountant!
/s
It could be done, but the idea needs refinement. 'Urban Fantasy' is a bit too loose. Which version of urban? English? American? Indian? Australian? How much urban to fantasy? How do the two mingle? Can a universe where Camelot is a high-rise still be engaging?
That's Ravnica. The difference with newer sets is that Magic becomes stylized by an external source's tropes in order to communicate likeness. Universes Within / Beyond is only a property distinction.
Ravnica was a massive turning point in plane design, but it blended a modernized city into the fundamentals of mana through stylization. It would be eye opening to see current Wizard's structure take on 'Urban Fantasy.'
I don't really feel like Ravnica is fully modern, but it's getting there. Karlov Manor story showed they have a type of computer technology and Niv Mizzet wants to make it the center of the multiverse, which sounds a bit like globalization.
tbh I love seeing different interpretations of magic spells and permanents so I'm fine with it. what's more important is properly developing your games to reduce bans and make the game better...
I can imagine a set that on the cover is set in modern day settings but is really just a cover for a set that is mainly about an organisation that is responsible for keeping everyone in the dark by dealing with all the crazy things. Think something like the SCP Foundation for example
A hard thing about urban fantasy is modern weaponry. As in, how do your fantasy threats match up against a gun?
If guns are effectively rapid-fire "power word kill", then your villains aren't going to be "evil vampires", but more "evil guys with guns (who happen to be vampires, I guess)."
If guns don't match up to fantasy combat, then your villains are just "vampires! (who happen to wear a suit, I guess)," and your heroes are just "d&d classes! (who happen to wear jeans and sneakers, I guess)." If magic is so overpowered, why has the nonmagical world not been subjugated and subsumed eons ago?
In a world where Magic releases sets based on non-fantasy IPs like Fallout and Ass Creed, it's hard to argue against given genre not being fantastical enough.
I think lore wise an urban fantasy setting would work amazingly.
I think presentation wise it would not work very well.
Murders of Karlov manner is basically proof of that, incredibly well done lore and a great world building addition to Ravnica that fit and made sense…only if you really deeply looked at the lore and followed the story.
But for average people just looking at the cards themselves it came off incredibly static, nonsensical, and badly. It was hard to present the magical and absurdness in a static medium like the cards, because an important premise was that stuff was “hidden” and had to be found, much like would be with urban fantasy.
To capture the real fantasy part youd have to focus primarily on that, losing the urban part, or youd have to have a lot of urban parts that dont feel fantasy when presented as still cards.
Its where Murders struggled to hit because sure the actual concept made perfect sense of “we are focusing on a specific guildless group and different background stories happening on ravnica to show day-to-day events and it is not indicative of the plane as a whole but one specific group.” But when it is in single still images that arent presented to viewers in specific and guaranteed orders it is just “here is some random ravnicans in hats with little explanation “
The real issue with magic lore is it cant really be too deep because cards are the primary presentation and people dont go looking for it. It doesn’t matter how much somethIng makes sense, it has to be superficially cool and superficially fantasy in appearance.
It’s why powerstones are fine, sure theyre really just coal/nuclear fusion analogues, but superficially they sound and look magical. Same for kaladesh, aether is magically blue and cool even if it does things the same as real world fuel sources. Or why Phyrexians are loved despite being pure science techno-organic borg virus that is basically devoid of magic, they look superficially magical ans fantasy. But CRT tv powered by ghosts are 100x more magical fantasy than Phyrexians but dont look at all superficially fantasy.
Urban fantasy plane would make for an awesome comic book/purely story medium, but would be pretty lame as an actual set
I like urban fantasy well enough, but it does seem like it would be a stretch to do it as a Magic setting.
The appeal of urban fantasy, in my book, is our real world in the present-day with the fantasy elements hidden underneath. I think you'd have a tough time doing that in a Magic setting. You've got fantastical elements intertwined with recognizable *stuff* from the real world like pizza delivery and Coca-Cola and Wal-Mart, and I just don't see that fitting with Magic's style. Then again, they're doing Duskmourn, the 80s Horror Movie setting, so maybe I'm wrong.
I think the best case for a Magic "urban fantasy" setting would be not to do urban fantasy per se, but to do something that captures that urban fantasy vibe. Like, a medium tech setting, something with, like early Industrial Revolution to right before WWI technology, and all the Magic stuff, as far as the humans of the plane know, don't exist; they're stories for children and things that their ancestors believed... except for a few "crazy" people who know the truth that the supernatural is still around and operating in the shadows, the sewers, the alleys, the wilderness etc. I think you could make the inevitable references to urban fantasy work, but it might require a bit more work than they put into the MKM or OTJ references.
Gonna preface this by saying that I'm not a prude about more modern elements in Magic. I personally love the aesthetics of Duskmourn's tech and fashion (though I do draw the line at fanny packs because they do, in fact, look really stupid), though that might also be because I wasn't alive during the 80s and, as such, that aesthetic feels no less unique and fantastical than New Capenna.
That being said, I don't particularly care for the idea of a modern-day urban fantasy plane, but that's mostly because I think a modern cityscape would either A) be incredibly mundane and/or B) have nothing unique to offer, aesthetically, that Ravnica doesn't already cover.
However, while it might not be exactly what Maro is talking about, I feel like the core theme of urban fantasy that several people have pointed out - that being the hidden nature of the fantasy aspects of the plane - would lend itself very well to a sort of "1950s conspiratorial suburbia" plane drawing on B-movies and that sorta "Area 51/Men in Black" vibe.
Apparently a "Osmosis Jones" setting is on the same short list and I find that idea upsetting. I don't want to know what internal structures are paired to Swamps.
:c
Hahaha. It sound weird, but I can see it. The twist in Bionicle is that it took place in a giant robot body and the heroes were inspired by cancer fighting cells.
i’m actually a big fan of the modern day stuff, i like the idea that magic’s multiverse makes any level of technology viable somewhere, and i think that fantasy set in modern times without being some kind of hidden world is a super untapped well of potential.
Duskmourn I’m especially excited for because of how freaky the rules of the plane itself are. I think that as time goes on, Magic always needs to get weirder in order to survive. I’d rather see the game take major risks than become a feedback loop of the same aesthetics.
*looks at Ravnica, Kamigawa, and New Capenna* *looks toward the camera*
More like [The Secret World MMO](https://www.secretworldlegends.com/).
So: * Human-focused. If vampires/elves/merfolk/etc. exist, they have to take great care to remain hidden from normal society. Or they exist in a parallel realm. There’s at least one organization with the mission to hunt supernatural creatures and protect humans. * Magic is kept secret from normal society. Magical items and spells are often disguised as everyday objects and phenomena. * Contemporary or near-contemporary setting. Probably a fictionalized version of New York or London. Maybe “Sanfransokyo” if they’re feeling adventurous.
So "disguise" mechanic makes a return and Murders of Karlov manor spikes.
“Magic thing that pretends to be a mundane thing” is a rich thematic space for card design.
Sanfransokyo is a bit too much like NEO already for me, but New York or London sound great.
Universes Beyond: The Dresden Files!
Chicago deserves a magic set
The Bean 1WG Legendary Artifact - Food Flash When The Bean enters, return target spell to its owner's hand {T}, add one mana of any color {T}, sacrifice this artifact: gain 2 life *"It's name is Cloud Gate!"* *Anish Kapoor, architect*
Nah. The Bean is full of weapons. It has to make short swords or something.
Ahh another Dresden Files lover I see
I've read the first three Dresden Files and I'm not from the US, and I don't get what the Bean is. Even though I follow Mtg just for the lore I feel that set that's so self-referential - based full of tropes known only by a specific nationality - would find people of other nationalities mostly confused and/or seeing it as "the earth now is banana shaped" (yeah, one is negative and one is kinda positive). I mean, a British person won't get a card refencing the Bielfeld Conspiracy or the fact that Molise doesn't exist.
"The Bean" is a famous Chicago sculpture/landmark that is officially called [Cloud Gate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_Gate). The artist who made it, one Anish Kapur, is a famously pompous and elitist artist. The connection to the Dresden Files is that in later book, it's revealed that the reason Anish is so pompous is that he is actually a Fae and it was secretly a cache of weapons hidden in plain sight. Going into further detail would ruin stuff, though.
Fun thing is the White Court being a primarily Red faction. Thomas is WR for sure but typical wampire? Going hard towards Red.
Would much rather prefer this than another planet of hats with mediocre world building that wastes a lot of potential
I was hoping for some Matthew Swift or Toby Daye, but I certainly wouldn't say no to Harry Dresden.
That sounds a lot like World/Chronicles of Darkness, minus the "fictional setting" (part of the appeal of WoD is that it's set in the real world)
Nice callout 👍
Fuuuck I love that game.
Oh man I remember being so excited for that game as it was getting ready to come out. I saw some exhibit about it at PAX or something and got these dog tags according to which faction I was in. Then I think I... never played it? Haha
Exactly. I asked the question to Mark and it feels like they're circling around what I'm describing, but haven't done it fully yet. New Capenna is like the 1920s rather than the 2020s. Kamigawa is cyberpunk, so a bit more futuristic. Ravnica's close, especially with Niv Mizzet's plan to make it the center of the multiverse - This could lead to modernization. But none of these are planes that are like 2024, but magic's real. Duskmourn's past feels like what I'm describing. It's like it was an urban fantasy plane set in the 80s or 90s that was taken over by horror.
Modern Urban Fantasy will run hard into the wall that is "no depiction of firearms" rule. People fighting against the unknown, police responding to "weird" situations, humans fighting against the supernatural in secret etc will be *really weird* if there are no firearms involved. Edit: Fallout and Warhammer are Universes Beyond and avoid this rule, all the actual MTG sets have skirted the line by making things like "wand guns" etc. One or two pieces of art get past the QC people but for the most part no modern firearms *is* a hard art/design rule.
FFVIII in shambles. Nobody likes gunblades anyway.
I had a chat with someone recently that basically boiled down to that it's dumb to need to qualify your statements about points that haven't been brought up. Not that I don't understand why you did it, I'm not a stranger to Reddit, I'm more just musing how much it sucks that you *know* someone's gonna come out of the woodwork so you have to preemptively acknowledge stuff that should go without saying but because you didn't explicitly say it someone might use it as a "gotcha" against your argument.
With the recent connection of planes by omen paths (which seem to be traveled frequently) an urban fantasy setting makes very little sense. How would you hide the fact that magical beings from all over the universe are traveling to your plane? As the story line is now, a UB Dresden Files, American Gods or some other established urban fantasy setting would work best I think. It would also avoid triggering players that would like to keep Guns, Internet and other modern day, mundane things out of their fantasy focused setting. NEO and New Capena pushed the boundaries a lot in this regard, but they still had a lot of fantastical elements to keep the fantasy-like feeling. Duskmourn is almost too much with its very mundane 80s setting (even the horror it portrays is something very mundane because it's so much oriented towards 80s horror movies) but a 2020s setting could be the straw that breaks the camels back.
I mean it could just be as simple as "there's not many omenpaths connecting to the plane/people avoid it because it's dangerous for nonhumans"
Yeah the key word in the question is MODERN
The only time the word “modern” is used in that post is to describe Duskmourn.
I mean those are very different than what they mean, kamigawa is cyberpunk
And also has magic spirits, Rat people, Snake people, Magic trees, floating magic cities, actual magic, etc. Neo Kamigawa is like a mix of cyberpunk and magitech than full cyberpunk.
I mean, yes, but I think that's unavoidable in _any_ genre that "Magic": the Gathering riskins for a plane setting.
One of the hallmarks of cyberpunk is an urban environment.
That's a very different genera than Urban fantasy though. Its like comparing high and low fantasy
Reading comprehension has taken a fucking beating, let me tell you.
Urban Fantasy is a genre, the most famous of which is The Dresden Files. They explicitly take place in *year of publication* But Magical.
I assume that urban fantasy in this context refers to more than just the urban nature of the setting. The term is nebulous, but often includes stuff like contemporary settings, investigative or vigilante lead characters (often female), romance, sapient supernatural creatures like werewolves/vampires/demons, and a secret magical (under) world that exists parallel to but secret from the mundane. (Conversely, it can also include modern settings where magic is known, accepted, and understood, but this is particularly uncertain ground for MTG since that's just splitting the difference between NC and Kamigawa). Of course, it doesn't need to include all these things, but these are fairly common tropes and if they're talking about urban fantasy I'd expect some combination of these big ones. It's tricky for MTG, because most interpretations would demand a plane where magic was much less a part of day to day life, because as you point out, we've seen plenty of planes with cities in various configurations. You can tell stories that hit most of these points on other urban planes, so what does an urban fantasy plane look like? I can only conclude it's a world where magic is a secret, which demands a setting that doesn't just flirt with modern technology like Kamigawa or Duskmourne, but is *defined* by it. Interesting question, I think. Edit: I do think it's a worthwhile nut to try to crack, though! UF gets a lot of hate but there are some absolute bangers in the genre, and a different audience than classic fantasy (since it often incorporates elements of romance and mystery in addition to fantasy). Plus, mechanically it would be super cool to have some kind of "masquerade" mechanic, where you could break hiding for some benefit, at some tragic cost.
In a lot of ways the way that Innistrad integrated its supernatural elements is the approach that Urban Fantasy tends to take. Particularly the variants that don't take the Secret World approach. It just happens to be urban fantasy/horror from 150 or so years ago. So a modern-era coded Urban Fantasy would look much like Innistrad but with more traditional (goblins, orcs, elves, etc) creature types rather than horror creatures.
My pitch would be to finally give us a worthwhile Nissa-focused set. Let her go full Toby Daye (hell, you could even have Seanan McGuire write it)—long coat and a haircut to disguise her pointed ears. Give her a Sultai card, bring back clues, and let her hide amongst the magical world while trying to track down something dangerous.
Urban fantasy isn't "fantasy in a city". It means a fantasy story set in a world that resembles ours. More specifically, most people refer to the "secret world" variety of urban fantasy (think Percy Jackson).
Harry Potter, Neverwhere, that kind of stuff?
Exactly
Pretty sure he's hinting at Lorwyn.....
♪ Curb Your Enthusiasm theme playing ♪
Yeah, sure, why not. Another answer from today says that a 'masquerade' type world is on the short list - as in, a world where the fantasy elements of the *urban fantasy* is hidden to most normal people. I think that's the version I'd be most interested in seeing, but I'm kind of an absolutist about "fuck it, Magic can be anything now."
Every day is a great day to breach the masquerade.
\*The city's Prince wants to know your location\*
The SCP Foundation is preparing their response to this hypothetical "Broken Masquerade" scenerio
I think the Masquerade element is ingrained enough with urban fantasy (young fantasy is almost all of that) that you can bring a lot of mechanic and flavorful elements without any of the things explored in Ravnica, New Capenna and Neo Kamigawa. Modal cards of "normal and fantasy world", day and night mechanics, a totally Not-new York setting of humans, with elves and fairys living in a parallel world/the underground. Maybe the next Lorwynn is that? It was called a new take in the setting, and the Omenpaths could be a connection between it and a "modern" world.
Regarding Lorwyn they said it was a new take on the setting, but I don’t see them going full Kamigawa and modernising it. Lorwyns big big draw has always been its countryside aesthetic and pseudo-Celtic folklore; as someone who lives near Dublin let me tell you modern day Dublin is not an MTG setting I want lmao What I suspect they’ll do is they’ll lean _much_ more into the Celtic mythology aspects of it- both as a fun new angle, to mesh with the Fomori (an Irish mythological race themselves), and to distinguish it further from the other two folkloric/countryside planes: Eldraine and Bloomburrow
Celtic myths, even without the humans, sounds really interesting, but when it was announced, the mention of the design sensibilities of Neo Kamigawa was mentioned, the setting doesnt have enough elements for "1000 years later" modernization, but I could see the elements of night and day cycle and Omenpaths as the "magical world" of a more mundane one, but is just a theory, we will see.
I always interpreted that as mechanical: taking what people loved from how it played and updating from there. In Kamigawas case the plane was modernised too, but ig we’ll have to see what happens with Lorwyn yeah. Imagining every new or returning plane as a modern setting feels strange though- a Japanese theme naturally had the modern cyberpunk angle to accompany it. I can’t envision anything similar for a folklore world
Yeah is just me jumping to conclusions, the Kamigawa design came when they started by "cyberpunk japanese pop culture", so I don't think they wanted a direct return to the plane but it was the "answer" to a design space, maybe Lorwynn came with "Celtic Myths" or "the Narnia like fantasy world in secret of the Mundane world" like I think, but we will know in like 2 years.
>Modal cards of "normal and fantasy world", day and night mechanics, a totally Not-new York setting of humans, with elves and fairys living in a parallel world/the underground. You know, this reminds me of Dimensions 20s The Unsleeping City. Something in that vein would honestly slap.
My thoughts exactly, World of Darkness, Hellboy, Harry Potter, Dresden Files, even some episodes of X-files, the pool is deep of inspiration, Innistrad, Lorwynn and even Neo Kamigawa with it's "artifacts as mundane, enchantment as magical" has the elements for it, and Magic has never done anything like that, all the "urban fantasy" is just elves living in a condo
Ravnica is probably the closest, with its coffee shops and subway system, but we see very little of that part and it lacks the secretive angle and contrast between the mudane and magical in the way something like WoD has. Ravnica is more urbanized fantasy than urban fantasy, so to speak.
Yeah, for something like the "Masquerade" you need a new world with really clear inspiration with history, from the 50s to modern times, so the dichotomy of the mundane/human/day/muggle world and the fantastic/magical/night world feels notorious enough
> I’m king of an absolutist about “fuck it, Magic can be anything now” This is clearly how WOTC feels, so I agree this is probably the best outlook to have.
Technically neither the asker nor maro specified the masquerade has to happen in a world that is anywhere technologically close to our.
Magic pretty much always has been anything and everything everywhere. Universes Beyond: Arabian Nights and Universes Beyond: Romance of the Three Kingdoms are a couple of my favourite sets :)
> Universe Beyond: Arabian Nights “In response, I cast [[Army of Allah]]
[Army of Allah](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d170015-b125-49a6-a15e-8fd116bbcb14.jpg?1562906251) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Army%20of%20Allah) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arn/2/army-of-allah?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d170015-b125-49a6-a15e-8fd116bbcb14?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just don't cast the other one. Even if it is the version with Elspeth in the art
Contemporary urban fantasy is my dream set. Shenmeng is my #2.
Very Dresden Files
Hell yeah. Anything can be Magic.
As long as it doesn't feel like "Just Earth but with Magic". It's my largest complaint about various Universes Beyond stuff - the ones I like the least are just "here's Earth". Assassin's Creed, some of Doctor Who, Stranger Things, and the Walking Dead. Make it "modern but another planet" and I'm here for it.
Hmm, I'm not sure I understand what you're describing. Earth (2024) but with magic is exactly what I meant originally since we've already gotten Earth (1870) with Thunder Junction, Earth (1924) with New Capenna and Earth (2224) with NEO. What would "modern but another planet" look like?
I disagree that Kamigawa, Capenna, and Thunder Junction are "Earth + Magic". There are unique stylings, creatures, technology and fantasy races. I can see and understand the argument for Thunder Junction more than the other two, but I would push back on those being "just Earth". Just how I see it. While individual cards may be bleh and very "Earthy", overall it feels different to me on a whole set basis. Part of it is art style. What I would want from "modern but another planet" is primarily two things: Unique races (or ones we might be familiar with) that are QUITE different. Merfolk and Elementals. NOT Dwarves and Elves. Those are fairly human. Second, some sort of unique architecture or styling on characters. Things that when just instantly look at it you go "this isn't here". Again, how close it is on any card can very but overall it being "enough off" is good enough for me, as poorly explained that is. As it stands, this is potentially an issue with Duskmourne (of which I am VERY excited for) as just "guy in clothes in house" is a potential card art. I have no issues with Cursed Recording because there's a very new monster in the TVs, and Chainsaw has enough "Extra" on it that I buy it's not from Earth. However "Come Back Wrong" is cutting it really darn close to not liking it because it's just a zombie and some shoes. To be more clear about the Universes Beyond dislikes I mentioned: If you look at some of the Humans from Doctor Who, those are \*just\* people in places. Not an event or any science fiction about them - I enjoy the Alien stuff just fine. Stranger Things is kind of just people as is Walking Dead and most of Assassin's Creed. They do not have \*anything\* alluding to not just being Earth at some point. I am not very picky and want card arts to be just a tad different than something I could see in a walk around my city.
This is what I have tried to articulate in the past but unable to so succinctly. Thank you for posting this.
Kaladesh but with phones
can the answer just be no? we don’t need this set, it doesn’t fit with magic in tone.
Describing those worlds as just ‘Earth+MTG’ feels very reductive. You might as well go the whole way- _Tarkir_ Earth (1259), _Innistrad_ Earth (1888), _Original Kamigawa_ Earth (1493), _Fiora_ Earth (1519), etc etc. ‘Modern but another world’ is no different to ‘Innistrad isn’t actually Germany’ or ‘Kaladesh isn’t really India’
With NEO already I don’t think we’re far away at all. Shadow run set seems like it would fit right in.
Yeah, NEO's the other example I didn't mention. They haven't done a contemporary urban fantasy plane yet, but they've made sets that are either a little bit in the past, a little bit in the future, or in Duskmourn's case it was taken over by something different.
Urban fantasy is cool, but something about modern-day fashion really takes me out of the "sci-fi/fantasy mishmash" that is Magic. Like I can't really get over that [[The Master, Multiplied]] is just a dude in a hoodie. Respect to Doctor Who, but it's just a little immersion-breaking.
Unfortunately, we may be seeing more of that with the Final Fantasy UB.
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest Final Fantasy characters dress too normally
maybe not, the biggest one that might stem close and will probably be prolific in that set is final fantasy 7 but the weapons and stuff really push it farther way then that. as the other final fantasy games that get close to modern clothing are 8 (somewhat popular) and 15 (mixed reception) the only other that have modern athetics somewhere in them are 11 and 14 in clothing but staying more towards the fantasy for a lot of its notable characters and the such. so that is 11 games to pull from without getting close to The Master multiplied at all. but yah most of the notable characters and stuff ether stem closer to fantasy (could see them on places like zendikar, like final fantasy 5 or 10 for example) or tech (final fantasy 13 i could see running around Kamigawa)
I really doubt this. I am very curious if they are going to focus around one game or not, because they do have some final fantasies that are a little futuristic and thus could run into this problem. But as an aggregate, especially if they are pulling from multiple games, Final Fantasy, at its core, has a very steampunk fantasy vibe and so it's unlikely that it will look too close to what we see every day here on Earth.
[The Master, Multiplied](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f734ca0-91bc-4496-9bd7-2d09415e850f.jpg?1696636744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Master%2C%20Multiplied) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/146/the-master-multiplied?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f734ca0-91bc-4496-9bd7-2d09415e850f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think context for The Master Multiplied makes him pretty fantastical if that helps. He's not just a guy in a hoodie, he's literally every person on Earth.
Right but that's not context that's provided within the game Magic: The Gathering. (Or rather it is, tactlessly, in the flavor text) This is a guy in a hoodie, or maybe 5 guys in different outfits at a party watching a computer overheat.
He's a guy in a hoodie. Doctor Who UB was about the worst one, stylistically, now only matched by Assassins Creed.
The Master card wasn't that bad for me. But the new art for Duskmourne really sucks. TVs, sneakers, and chainsaws so far
Same. Monsters, demons and stuff? Yeah cool. Stranger Things-lite, 80s slasher tropes? …ehh. (Just not the vibe for me personally)
If Urban Fantasy means a plane that essentially takes place on Earth in the year 2024 aesthetics wise, that doesn't appeal to me. I don't want Magic Fantasy that is original to break the 4th wall or be too similar to real life or other common/mainstream trope space. I think exploring Urban Fantasy through Magic is better suited for Universes Beyond (and we already did that with Doctor Who)
That's fair. I'm a HUGE Doctor Who fan.
Only if it's written by or involves Neil Gaiman in some capacity
Ooh, I'd love that
Where's my jet set radio secret lair?
Yesssss, I love those games
If only there were some way to do a dense urban space that still feels consistent with the tones and aesthetics of other Magic settings. Maybe a plane that's just one big city, and the factions are the different industries and organizations that manage different parts of the city. And maybe they could base them around the color pairs, and sort of give them each a cohesive identi-
I actually suspect 'modern urban fantasy' may be the result of Niv Mizzet's plan for Ravnica after the Karlov Manor epilogue.
I think the closer you get to semi-conductors and modern day technology the more work you have to do blend that world with mana, magic, and the themes of MtG in a believable way. I'm in no way saying it can't be done, but on the full speed treadmill that is modern MtG I think that creative nuance can be hard to find.
Ghost in the machine? Make that a card name lol
personally speaking, don’t want it even a little. the closer things feel to modern world the less I enjoy them in magic. Urban fantasy can be its own good thing(though honestly i rarely enjoy it anyway) just don’t like it for magic
So how do you feel about spooky video tapes
Not great
Because Magic is the only game like this I play, I want all the things I like to be in it. It feels to me the same as when Nintendo went beyond their own IP characters in Super Smash games. Snake running around the Mushroom Kingdom was odd at first but we got used to it.
I can get that, its fair especially for things that would never support a game on their own. Ive just seen several card games be this IP mashup over the years and ive never felt any desire to try them even when they were properties i like, just not what i wanted magic to be. Maybe its because i started magic so long ago and it was the fantasy stuff that drew me in. If you took the me from 2000, she wouldnt ever get into modern magic with it being such a mashup The smash bros comparison is one ive seen people make and its always a weird one to me. Smash bros is specifically its own separate mash up thing, its not like solid snake shows up to give mario a star, or you play zelda and find sephiroth at the end of a temple. We got used to it because it was specifically not the actual mushroom kingdom setting.
That's a fair opinion. Do you feel the same way about Universes Beyond?
Anyone ever read The Others series by Anne Bishop or the InCryptid series by Seanen McGuire? Those would both be awesome modern fantasy sets
So basically [The Secret World MMO](https://www.secretworldlegends.com/)?
I think the only people left here are people who would not mind an urban fantasy plane. The other ones have already irked out of here after the recent surge of modern settings into mtg.
I really hope they don't; the 80s-esque fashion and technology has already pretty severely dropped my interest in Duskmourn, which I was otherwise really excited for. Capenna was fantastical enough that I was into it; NEO felt like pushing it, as far as tonal consistency goes, but was cool enough that I was ok with it. I don't think contemporary urban fantasy would bring me enough excitement to balance out the aesthetic clashing.
Just cut out the middleman and give us an Earthbound/Mother Universes Beyond, you cowards.
This Secret Lair stinks!
You mean…uh…wizards wearing trench coats and hats? MKM, anyone?
Can we get an original theme, rather than an overdone riff on an existing genre?
This 100%, they became so lazy with writing that the sets are more about (or solely about) the theme or setting. It used to be kind of fantasy, but wasn't like anything else. Now the story is "cowboys" or "haunted mansion", doesn't matter what happens there or what characters are doing.
I think the last truly *new* original setting, if you ignore sets that return to previously established planes like Dominaria and Ravnica, was Ikoria. The idea of a plane full of giant monsters where humanity is pushed back into a few highly defensible cities is legitimately pretty cool. It had some Godzilla inspiration, but it was pretty minor. But that was back in 2020. Four years and 16+ sets ago.
Ikoria is obviously a riff on the Monster Hunter Franchise /s
>It used to be kind of fantasy, but wasn't like anything else. That were just riffs on existing things >Not-Greek Myths >Not-Hammer-Horror >Not-D&D >Not-Egypt >Not-Japan What exactly is the barrier of something to be not just themed on something? If you heavily played the game during the time it only took place in a handful of planes I can see why your memories made it seem more unique,
I didn’t care for the theming of SNC and I think I’d like a more contemporary urban fantasy setting even less. That being said, I care way way way more about mechanics than flavor so as long as they keep doing a good job with design I don’t really care
To be fair Noir and movie style crime families are a weird mix with fantasy. Sure it is “urban” but I dont think thats what they mean.
It doesn't matter if it's something traditional or something new, how welcome it will be is 90% down to execution. Unfortunately, I think WotC's ability to effectively build worlds that stand on their own is being choked by lazy and tedious trope, reference and fan service chasing. I say it seems lazy because it's hard to imagine the first day of development of New Capenna didn't start with a whiteboard being filled with every cliché of the mobster genre, and it feels like a lot of it made it to the card. I'm pointing at New Capenna, but same goes for Thunder Junction and Markov Manor.
Imo their ability to create worlds is unchanged and you can tell from things like the Planeswalkers Guides they do still really care (hell even MKM had a pretty solid explanation for the all the detectivness). It just doesn’t make it to the cards in the same way that it used to- there’s some filter between worldbuilding and card printing they pass through where the world they’ve created is Made Marketable that, while it probably did always exist, wasn’t turbo charged like it is now
Agree plus they seem unwilling to touch anything even the smallest bit controversial. Which made all three of those set lacking in substance.
You’re not excited for “Agents In Black”, “Hellguy, Half-Demon Detective”, and “Puffie, The Vampire Hunter”?
They should make the SCP thing a plane lol
I hate everything about this.
Absolutely! Can't wait to see Oko wear a Yankee cap and get a bagel from the local bodega while Kellan gets some timbs and rides the subway. Magic has *always* had some non-fantasy elements, like other people have astutely pointed out, so why complain now? But in all honesty, not only have we just had a barrage of non-fantasy sets recently, with at least a couple more on the way, it's just diluting the entire core of Magic's theme for me at this point. Duskmourn is a perfect example. The actual story of the plane is really cool, but by making it's characters wear modern clothes, have ghosts in CRTs, etc., it completely clashes with Magic's 30 year identity of being far-off lands and rich worlds. For all the amazing, evocative, fantasy designs in these sets, there will be a literal chainsaw in Magic forever now. Not a hand-cranked saw, not a fantasy powered contraption approximating a saw, a literal, no-shit chainsaw that can be put on an Elves of Deep Shadow now forever. They could have EASILY made Duskmourn with just fantasy elements, and there's some AMAZING cards shown so far. Twitching Doll is a creepy, flavorful, awesome design, that would fit right in normally. Is Fantasy really such a restricted creative space that they have to move away from it? I just don't think so. Places like Innistrad are cool and beloved because they take concepts and themes people like and integrate them *into a fantasy world.* There's a huge difference between these two things, and when you've built your entire universe on one for 20 years and then decide "fuck it, I want to have everyone in detective hats and go to definitely not New York" it just hurts both. You can like it, everyone has different tastes. But I like the world of Magic the Gathering, and I like its identity. That's why, even if I may love horror like Duskmourn, I really hate what sets like it are doing to magic. When you do everything, it becomes nothing. I even like UB and like the idea for it in Commander. But it is now the core-product, inescapable.
also Duskmourne reads like the literal synopsis of Stranger Things season 4, it’s so rehashed. like, major cultural phenom (that even had a UB for fucks sake) just did this. exact. plot. Like what, the demon is just One, binding his time from the marketing cross-over?
That's a fair opinion. I just like that Magic can contain both. I'm a huge fan of high fantasy, sword and sorcery, etc. But I also like science fiction just as much, and doing mashups/crossovers with these ideas has always appealed to me since I was a kid.
I love steak and I love cake, but a steak cake ruins both. That's what they're doing with the identity and theme of magic, diluting and spoiling it with other clashing concepts, which are all cool on their own, but blended togather just taste vaguely unpleasant. You mix every color of paint, it just looks like shit.
You know, classic, plain fantasy worked pretty well for the first 30 years of the game, we should try that again some time. 2024 sets have clearly been targeted at stretching the identity of what a Magic set can be... it can be a detective novel, a cowboy western, rebranded Redwall, or Stranger Things without the license. The pessimist in me says they did this to try and make Universes Beyond properties more palatable and less jarring ahead of Marvel and other upcoming properties. To be blunt, I'm not about it. Kaladesh and Ravnica are already urban enough while still retaining their fantasy roots.
Some parts of dominaria’s history were more robust than others. Urza was an archaeologist. Honestly, my early views of doninaria made it look like how I view Kaladesh now. The Thran were basically Atlantis. Instead has a large urban setting, it might be midevil technology setting, but it had many urbanized subplots. I don’t mind them doing modern things or cyberpunk or whatever, really, I just want it to make sense.
"The pessimist in me says they did this to try and make Universes Beyond properties more palatable and less jarring ahead of Marvel and other upcoming properties." If so, I think they went the wrong way. If you don't like Universes Beyond, then having even the normal sets not feel like Magic anymore is going to be quite off putting, its not going to ease you into accept Universes Beyond.
Id love to see more Kaldheim, Alara, Dominaria, Ravnica (guilds. Not detectives!), Tarkir, old Kamigawa, Theros, Zendikar…..
There wasn't classic plain fantasy for the first 30 years lol. That had all the sci fi stuff with Urza, Eldritch and Gothic horror on innistrad, New Capenna, classic Japanese myths and then Japanese myths as Cyberpunk with Kamigawa, Arabian Nights and Portal 3 Kingdoms, Greek, Egyptian and Norse mythology inspired planes. This has never been Swords and sorcery fantasy
All of that falls into fantasy. Urza and the phyrexian saga was sci-fiish but in the same sense Warhammer40k is sci fi but is more or less fantastical. And even then Dominaria itself remained sword and sorcery. Following that, planes like Kamigawa was still the 'medieval' style story with sword and sorcery. Same for Innistrad, Zendikar, Ravnica and the only breakaway being Mirrodin and Scars, but again, its sci fi like Warhammer40k is sci fi. Duskmourne is not like that.
They should just do "our plane". Where it completely breaks the 4th wall and recognizes itself as a card game. Like planeswalkers come to our plane and they have to build decks because there typical form of magic doesn't work.
Next "Un" set?
"Un-settling"
Honestly fuck it. Who cares anymore. We have Walking Dead IP FFS. Even in standard sets, we’ve already had cowboys, cyberpunk, and apparently the upcoming set has 80’s horror themes. There’s literally nothing off limits at this point.
Meh.
Stop making modern places in magic Magic is supposed to be old school high fantasy I hate modernity in it 😭 This is supposed to be fantastical escapism from the mundanity of our modern world
I don’t personally care for anything too far away from fantasy/myth/historical settings. Ex: I loved the original Kamigawa block but don’t like Neon Dynasty at all. That being said, I’ll just play less of it for a while like I did with Karlov and Thunder Junction and it will be fine. If others like it, I don’t need every set to be a banger for me. Though if it gets too consistent I can see myself drifting further from MTG over time.
Does magic even have an identity anymore
Aesthetically, I don't think so.
I love the idea that Magic can massively shift genres though. It's a huge part of the appeal to me. Planeswalkers going to vastly different environments. Reminds me or media I liked as a kid like Bionicle or Pendragon novels. One might argue it started even with the original Kamigawa block.
this just sounds like the annoying kid on playground who during pretend invents himself the weapon that nobody else can beat, and then says it’s not fair the other kids get upset when they tell him not to do that. Sure, in the annoying kid on the playground way, planeswalkers can do anything. But Magic as most people have met it for 3 decades is fantasy, with (increasing) twists as the need to sell new sets runs up against the drying well of ideas. fantasy can be a lot of things, but when it’s just real life, it feels a lot like we should just pack it in and call it done.
Fuck it. Magic has already jumped the shark at this point.
Hey Maro, how about we stop with the tropes and simply create planes that are interesting to begin with? The top-down design creates flavor failures and lame planes like “everyone detective” - “everyone cowboy” and “90’s horror franchise reference collection”.
Little strange to see pushback to the idea that Magic can be anything when one of Magic’s core premises is an infinite multiverse of possibilities. That said, while I’m not opposed to the idea of an urban fantasy world, I’m worried it might end up being too similar to “Ravnica but modern”.
Better be a Dresden Files crossover to go with it
God help me id be so broke.
Why not I think it would be neat.
All I'll say is that if Hasbro/WOTC wasn't able to swing so big and successfully with LotR and netting Final Fantasy and Marvel so quickly, Dresden Files UB would have been a decent stepping stone.
I mean were getting cards with chainsaws and VHS tapes sure why not just just give us straight up downtown Chicago as a plane ffs
Give me a Dresden Files UB
Finally, Fate/Stay Magic
I don't mind the idea of 'modern real-life with hidden magic users' but I'm not convinced it would work very well as the setting for a full set: for it to actually feel different from a modernised Ravnica there'd have to be a critical mass of "muggles", mechanically limited, to distinguish the two worlds, which is not the most thrilling proposition. Having a single character from a fully modern plane who discovered an Omenpath in an abandoned warehouse show up in a random set could be fun though...
It might actually be a modernized Ravnica going by the epilogue to Karlov Manor though. But the idea of someone from "Earth" discovering an omenpath? That's basically the plot of Pendragon, a series of YA fantasy novels that I was a big fan of growing up.
Dang they are fully revamping style and feel of MTG as a whole arent they. Wild.
I find it always funny that he "hints" about it... Now, I don't follow Maro Tumblr but I'm here on reddit pretty often, and there isn't a single time that I remember that Maro mentioned something along the line of "what do you think of a set like this" or "what if Magic goes in this direction" that didn't happen in the next 2/3 years max. What I read into this is that it is 100% (not 99%, 100%) sure that one of the next planes is an urban fantasy plane. Probably WOTC already is halfway through with it or has finished it an is going to the next thing right now... This said, looking at how they did Markov Manor and how it seems they are doing Duskmourn, I'm not overluy excited, but ok... My 2 cents is that this will come at the same time or pretty soon after FF and Marvel, so that there is some uniformity between the various worlds.
Wizard? Or just some kid with a magic bat ready to beat some etheral ass? Im in.
I wish they'd think less about new planes and more about the existing planes. Why not just stay on a plane for a time? :(
WOTC willing to do Anything for a GTA secret lair
I love steak and I love cake, but a steak cake ruins both. That's what they're doing with the identity and theme of magic, diluting and spoiling it with other clashing concepts, which are all cool on their own, but blended togather just taste vaguely unpleasant. You mix every color of paint, it just looks like shit.
Yes, let’s call it “Magic: The Real World” and it will be so similar to actual reality that it won’t even feel like an escape any more! I can’t wait to cast a Cellphone, or play a Parking Lot! My Firefighter blocks your Accountant! /s
LMAO there'll be a new death and taxes deck where you actually pay taxes until you die.
Every set is basically a Californicated modern cosplay set. Doesnt matter anymore.
So, Ravnica, Neo Kamigawa, and Capenna?
The idea I'm getting at is 2024, but magic's real. Those planes are all close, but they're circling around the idea rather than fully landing on it.
It could be done, but the idea needs refinement. 'Urban Fantasy' is a bit too loose. Which version of urban? English? American? Indian? Australian? How much urban to fantasy? How do the two mingle? Can a universe where Camelot is a high-rise still be engaging?
If it’s like Shadow Run, yes, go for it. If not, pass.
I wouldn't look forward to it, but at this point Magic is an IP train and they already screwed up Ravnica so why not this too?
That's Ravnica. The difference with newer sets is that Magic becomes stylized by an external source's tropes in order to communicate likeness. Universes Within / Beyond is only a property distinction. Ravnica was a massive turning point in plane design, but it blended a modernized city into the fundamentals of mana through stylization. It would be eye opening to see current Wizard's structure take on 'Urban Fantasy.'
I don't really feel like Ravnica is fully modern, but it's getting there. Karlov Manor story showed they have a type of computer technology and Niv Mizzet wants to make it the center of the multiverse, which sounds a bit like globalization.
thats one way to try and get some black players
As long as it's inspired then by all means. Urban fantasy has needed some legs to stand on.
tbh I love seeing different interpretations of magic spells and permanents so I'm fine with it. what's more important is properly developing your games to reduce bans and make the game better...
There are lots of urban fantasy properties I'd buy a universes beyond set of. I have zero interest in a set that tries to do it within the Magic IP.
I can imagine a set that on the cover is set in modern day settings but is really just a cover for a set that is mainly about an organisation that is responsible for keeping everyone in the dark by dealing with all the crazy things. Think something like the SCP Foundation for example
I would rather just like to return to New Capenna
A hard thing about urban fantasy is modern weaponry. As in, how do your fantasy threats match up against a gun? If guns are effectively rapid-fire "power word kill", then your villains aren't going to be "evil vampires", but more "evil guys with guns (who happen to be vampires, I guess)." If guns don't match up to fantasy combat, then your villains are just "vampires! (who happen to wear a suit, I guess)," and your heroes are just "d&d classes! (who happen to wear jeans and sneakers, I guess)." If magic is so overpowered, why has the nonmagical world not been subjugated and subsumed eons ago?
We already have New Capenna though
guns shoot electricity in new capenna.
sooo... Ravnica 5? I'm down
Might be, yeah. We know from the story that Niv Mizzet's got plans.
In a world where Magic releases sets based on non-fantasy IPs like Fallout and Ass Creed, it's hard to argue against given genre not being fantastical enough.
When are we going to Wraeclast
Sure, give me a Dresden Files set.
If MARO asks, it’s already too late.
They’ve diluted the original essence beyond recognition at this point so why even ask?
I think lore wise an urban fantasy setting would work amazingly. I think presentation wise it would not work very well. Murders of Karlov manner is basically proof of that, incredibly well done lore and a great world building addition to Ravnica that fit and made sense…only if you really deeply looked at the lore and followed the story. But for average people just looking at the cards themselves it came off incredibly static, nonsensical, and badly. It was hard to present the magical and absurdness in a static medium like the cards, because an important premise was that stuff was “hidden” and had to be found, much like would be with urban fantasy. To capture the real fantasy part youd have to focus primarily on that, losing the urban part, or youd have to have a lot of urban parts that dont feel fantasy when presented as still cards. Its where Murders struggled to hit because sure the actual concept made perfect sense of “we are focusing on a specific guildless group and different background stories happening on ravnica to show day-to-day events and it is not indicative of the plane as a whole but one specific group.” But when it is in single still images that arent presented to viewers in specific and guaranteed orders it is just “here is some random ravnicans in hats with little explanation “ The real issue with magic lore is it cant really be too deep because cards are the primary presentation and people dont go looking for it. It doesn’t matter how much somethIng makes sense, it has to be superficially cool and superficially fantasy in appearance. It’s why powerstones are fine, sure theyre really just coal/nuclear fusion analogues, but superficially they sound and look magical. Same for kaladesh, aether is magically blue and cool even if it does things the same as real world fuel sources. Or why Phyrexians are loved despite being pure science techno-organic borg virus that is basically devoid of magic, they look superficially magical ans fantasy. But CRT tv powered by ghosts are 100x more magical fantasy than Phyrexians but dont look at all superficially fantasy. Urban fantasy plane would make for an awesome comic book/purely story medium, but would be pretty lame as an actual set
I like urban fantasy well enough, but it does seem like it would be a stretch to do it as a Magic setting. The appeal of urban fantasy, in my book, is our real world in the present-day with the fantasy elements hidden underneath. I think you'd have a tough time doing that in a Magic setting. You've got fantastical elements intertwined with recognizable *stuff* from the real world like pizza delivery and Coca-Cola and Wal-Mart, and I just don't see that fitting with Magic's style. Then again, they're doing Duskmourn, the 80s Horror Movie setting, so maybe I'm wrong. I think the best case for a Magic "urban fantasy" setting would be not to do urban fantasy per se, but to do something that captures that urban fantasy vibe. Like, a medium tech setting, something with, like early Industrial Revolution to right before WWI technology, and all the Magic stuff, as far as the humans of the plane know, don't exist; they're stories for children and things that their ancestors believed... except for a few "crazy" people who know the truth that the supernatural is still around and operating in the shadows, the sewers, the alleys, the wilderness etc. I think you could make the inevitable references to urban fantasy work, but it might require a bit more work than they put into the MKM or OTJ references.
oh here we go. This is how we get more product placement in the game.
Gonna preface this by saying that I'm not a prude about more modern elements in Magic. I personally love the aesthetics of Duskmourn's tech and fashion (though I do draw the line at fanny packs because they do, in fact, look really stupid), though that might also be because I wasn't alive during the 80s and, as such, that aesthetic feels no less unique and fantastical than New Capenna. That being said, I don't particularly care for the idea of a modern-day urban fantasy plane, but that's mostly because I think a modern cityscape would either A) be incredibly mundane and/or B) have nothing unique to offer, aesthetically, that Ravnica doesn't already cover. However, while it might not be exactly what Maro is talking about, I feel like the core theme of urban fantasy that several people have pointed out - that being the hidden nature of the fantasy aspects of the plane - would lend itself very well to a sort of "1950s conspiratorial suburbia" plane drawing on B-movies and that sorta "Area 51/Men in Black" vibe.
Apparently a "Osmosis Jones" setting is on the same short list and I find that idea upsetting. I don't want to know what internal structures are paired to Swamps. :c
Hahaha. It sound weird, but I can see it. The twist in Bionicle is that it took place in a giant robot body and the heroes were inspired by cancer fighting cells.
The idea of a plane that is a living body to me ends up feeling like it would end up being the MTG version of the Mystery flesh pit
i’m actually a big fan of the modern day stuff, i like the idea that magic’s multiverse makes any level of technology viable somewhere, and i think that fantasy set in modern times without being some kind of hidden world is a super untapped well of potential. Duskmourn I’m especially excited for because of how freaky the rules of the plane itself are. I think that as time goes on, Magic always needs to get weirder in order to survive. I’d rather see the game take major risks than become a feedback loop of the same aesthetics.
takes risks… by making season 4 of stranger things into a set… got it